Talk:Necromancer (5e Class)

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feedback: 1 Personally i would say have them choose an archetype at level one like the warlock and maybe a secondary choice at third level? 2 give them different stat block depending on the archetype. This would be very different from other classes but do you think that the necro-warrior and undead beastmaster should both have the same weapon proficiencies and hit dice?? -- 09:52, 8 March 2016 (MST)

OK, so would that be a pick of 2 archetypes from the same list, or 1 archetype from two different lists? --Kydo (talk) 12:01, 8 March 2016 (MST)

Who’s idea was it to make this a class this is an ARCANE TRADITION that already is covered in the 5e player handbook under Wizard as an archetype. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Darth Vader (talkcontribs). Please sign your posts.

This class was created by Kydo, but as he said below, it was created because of repeated requests from other users. This isn't even the only necromancer class; see the disambiguation page "necromancer." I guess people feel like the PHB archetype is too restrictive? — Geodude Chatmod.png (talk | contribs | email)‎‎ . . 19:03, 3 July 2018 (MDT)
To be fair, that Arcane Tradition is called School of Necromancy, not Necromancer. Semnatics but tis a difference none-the-less. I don't know about the restrictiveness of the subclass for wizard but I will say it doesn't inspire that dark, grim nature that is (attempted) captured here. There's a bit more focus on the undead aspects for this too. 3.5e did similar with WotC supplemental products, so we've simply sped up the process of getting a true necromancer class. Cheers! BigShotFancyMan (talk) 19:44, 3 July 2018 (MDT)
So what's the difference between someone who practices necromancy, and a necromancer? Oh right, nothing. That's the literal definition.
Literal definition? I think necromancy is the practice of something and a necromancer is someone who uses necromancy. Just being literal though. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 10:06, 11 October 2018 (MDT)

1 archetype from 2 lists

I aint doin' this for my health[edit]

This class was made based on repeated requests from other users. I originally had no intent in creating a dedicated necromancer class. If you are interested in this being completed, please speak up and get active. Make edits. Give suggestions. Ask questions. Be the change you wish to see in the world. My only objective was to satisfy a demand... But if the audience won't even participate in the creation of their own fanservice- on a damn wiki no less- well, I might as well just mark this abandoned so it gets decluttered with the rest of the wasted words. --Kydo (talk) 03:48, 14 September 2016 (MDT)

Good, delete it then. This trash won't be missed.
Thanks so much for sharing your opinion. Do you have any ideas that could improve this page from "trash"? BigShotFancyMan (talk) 10:06, 11 October 2018 (MDT)
At least read the work done before hijacking the page to create a single, exclusively restrictive vision of the subject material. The point of a class is to cover a fictional archetype as completely as possible. "Guy who dresses like the grim reaper and otherwise functions as a beastmaster" is thoroughly narrow. --Kydo (talk) 01:40, 3 February 2017 (MST)

Suggestions for Balance and other inquiries[edit]

I'm currently playing a Necromancer in my DM's campaign. I'm level 11 at the moment and I went with the Undertaker Occult. There are a couple of things that I'm either confused about or feel need to change. One big thing is the Animate Major Undead. I think that it would work better if the challenge rating went up to 11 or 12 at level 19 or 20. It might be prudent to include dragons as well in the list of animatables; I don't see any real reason not to. Also, rather than making this a single companion that will lose the need to be refreshed at level 15, this would be much more interesting as simply an improvement of the regular Animate Undead without the limit "You can only control one major undead at a time." I understand the major problem with this is the difficulty in players and DM's keeping up with a large number of undead pets, but I still feel that it would be a worthwhile change to the class. Soul Harvest, Spontaneous Unburial, and Animate Major Undead are the key points in this class that make it worth using compared to Wizard Necromancer or Death Domain Cleric, especially when considering that Necromancer only gains one spell per level and can't learn more from other players. Without a fully functional Animate Major Undead, the Necromancer class feels dramatically underpowered. Removing the "In addition, the major undead now lasts until its hit points reach 0." would help make this change more balanced.

Thanks for all your work in making the class so far! Vulgaris Magistralis (talk) 09:16, 15 December 2017 (MST)

The class would have to have its capstone feature removed for the final Animate Major Undead improvement which is sorta iffy. CR 9 dragons give you a free aoe that deals more damage than a 7th level spell according to the DMG(12d6 damage on a 7th level spell versus 12d8/10d10 damage breath) every 3 rounds so I am against adding dragons.
I also agree that the undertaker subclass needs some changes as I still believe that Undead Resolve is really weak and needs to be replaced or reworked. I slightly buffed Lord of the Undead so it is stronger at later levels to partially accommodate for this. But I do not agree about the power level of the class needs to be buffed as it is very much comparable to the School of Necromancy Wizard(see Understanding Bounded Accuracy (5e Guideline) for why the undertaker boosting AC is so strong) and you get a very strong undead through Animate Major Undead. You also learn spells from the wizard spell list compared to the sorcerer spell list and you can summon undead without the need for a body.--Blobby383b (talk) 19:04, 15 December 2017 (MST)
Well balanced edits Blobby, quick question though, what is the difference in the way you tag abilities vs how they were?
This is still my favorite thing on the wiki (probably bias though >.<)
Vulgaris did you check out my test play way at the bottom? While I'd love to include dragons myself I feel the current Animate Major is balanced. When this thing starts raising dead, esp as an undertaker, its really good at what it does. With the change to Séance allowing multiple uses, that should help with level 20 panache. I'd say provide input on at level 20 to really see if raising the CR bar is necessary. The number of undead to track I don't find an issue at all. They usually go down in 2-4 hits, or much faster in a Fireball. When buffing the Core class, it very important to keep in mind the subclasses. I intended the core to be sort of cool features and the subclasses to provide the power, building upon bones (hehe) of the necromancer. I won't be DMing high level characters any time soon and my group doesn't really get chances to play test so I'll be leaning on community input. THanks for your help on this. Any counter points, bring them up. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 06:41, 18 December 2017 (MST)
Well explained bigshot. Also, I am just linking to the SRD on the wiki when I tag ability scores and conditions. Plus, it is much easier to use and remember {{5c|Poisoned}} than [[5e SRD:Conditions#Poisoned|poison]] as they link to the same place, see poisoned and poison.--Blobby383b (talk) 11:50, 18 December 2017 (MST)
Thanks! and great point about it be easier. I don't usually wikify things but when I do I'm going to have to remember the easier way of things. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 12:17, 18 December 2017 (MST)
Thanks for the responses, folks! "They usually go down in 2-4 hits, or much faster in a Fireball." That's exactly my problem with the raising normal undead focus. I meant it would be difficult to track several different types of undead if Animate Major Undead were used on several different types of creatures. The basic undead are so weak that they're more of a bonus than an actual focus (summoning them without bodies is a very nice perk of the class, though). The AC increase is nice, but throw any sort of AOE magic attack at them and they're toast. The Animate Major Undead feature is what makes the class interesting to me, actually being able to make minions of defeated foes, instead of just generic skellies and zombos. The major undead are balanced as they lose all of their immunities and resistances when they're resurrected, along with any spellcasting ability. Especially with the CR limit, it doesn't seem overpowered so far. I do like the edits that I noticed were made so far, you're doing good work. I also agree on buffing/changing the Undead Resolve feature. I see what you're both saying about the dragons, I get it's probably best to leave them out. But, the major undead lasting until 0 hitpoints doesn't seem like a capstone feature at all. First of all, it's only one undead, which accounts for half of a 3rd tier spellslot. Considering that at level 20, if a necromancer uses all of their tier 3 and higher spell slots for undead, they can animate 98 undead, getting to keep one without recasting the spell feels underwhelming. Especially when the 7th tier spell Finger of Death does the same thing. It would only really be particularly useful (overpowered, in my opinion) if it applied to numerous major undead, which is why I don't think they should both exist in the class. Also, I didn't notice any particular change to Seance. Did I miss something or was it made a while ago or is it just a planned change?
I'm going to get a chance to try it out at level 20 next month and I'll see how it functions there. I'll be sure to post the results after.
I still like the idea of lots of major undead, but to compromise, maybe increase the CR cap to 12 at level 19. Also, instead of raising a single undead of any CR under 12, you can raise one major undead with a CR equal to or lower than the limit. But, you can summon multiple undead if the highest CR is at least 2 lower than the limit. Essentially, take the strongest major undead you have raised and subtract their CR from the limit. The number you have left is the total number of major undead you may raise (with the exception of 0 from a creature which is equal to the limit). For example, with an assumed limit of 12, if you have any undead of CR 12 or 11, you can only have 1. If your strongest undead is CR 10, you could have 2 major undead of CR 10 and below. If your strongest undead is CR 4, you could have 8 undead of CR 4 and below. That seems kind of complicated though, so it might not be the best solution.
I just want to point out that this is also one of my favorite pages on the site, always been a fan of minion controllers and I'm glad for everything that you've done for it so far and that you keep working on it. Vulgaris Magistralis (talk) 21:02, 21 December 2017 (MST)
Thanks for the kind words, they resonate with me very much. In regards to Animate Major Undead (AMU) CR cap raised to 12 at level 19, test play it before changing it because at level 19 you have many spell slots to raise undead with. Every spell slot beyond 3rd gives +2 undead. If your undertaker, I think I unintentionally OP'd the feature that gives raises an undead every time you raise one. Effectively this doubles the undead raised and I was aiming for 1 extra per "casting". None the less my point is, at level 19, you are surely to overwhelm an adversary. Xanather's Guide to Everything is an amazing tool for complex encounters and it says that 5-6 CR 4 is a good encounter for level 20 party (iirc, don't have the book on me). I call shaningans, but it's what it says. Between the Necro, AMU, and minions/spells I think things are good.
Second, the splitting of CR amongst undead to create more undead. This was a feature at some point. I removed it eventually because it was a cumbersome and muddy feature, imo. In line with above comments, plenty of undead are being raised, and current undertaker writing, too many possibly. Blobby, your thoughts if current level 6 undertaker feature would be granting too many undead?
Last, I'm not close-minded to suggestions. Please bring ideas. I spent a week on this? lol and continue to follow up and love hearing community ideas. I wish WotC would have done something as flavorful and useful as this. Cheers BigShotFancyMan (talk) 06:42, 22 December 2017 (MST)
I wanted to add, your undead (as an undertaker) are not joke at level 19 (use 20 for easy math). They get +6 & +20 = +26 hp, and +6 AC. No vulnerabilities and resist necrotic damage. Sure Fireball still hurts, but I think they have a chance to survive it now. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 07:09, 22 December 2017 (MST)
Test play sounds fair before making any major changes; I'll check it out next month and see how it works. I also call shenanigans on Xanather's Guide, lol, that definitely doesn't sound right. At level 10 as a necromancer I killed 8 CR 4 creatures in one turn. Yes, I used fireball, but there's no way that 5-6 would take on a whole party of level 20's. On the other hand, my DM does give us some op stuff every now and then, so I could be trying to get the class to match up to that. The total number of undead I calculated is using every spell slot 3rd tier and up, which there's no way anyone would actually do that, right? The extra undead provided by the Undertaker feature is only 1 per casting (at least that's how I had understood it, I can see how it could be read to summon literally double the number, which would be huge since that would mean a total of almost 200. I personally think that would be awesome, but definitely overpowered. I'll change the wording on the main page to communicate that.), so it functions almost the same as Undead Thralls, but the spell itself allows for extra, "When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 4th level or higher, you animate or reassert control over two additional Undead creatures for each slot above 3rd."
I can see, depending on the DM, necromancer is probably pretty balanced. Still needs a few changes, imo, but more balanced than I'm seeing it in my campaign due to the op nature of the world. I do think that some sort of feature to at least allow for a couple of major undead would be a nice addition. Maybe raise the number you can control at level 19 instead of the CR?
I did notice the change to Seance after rereading it today. I think it's pretty balanced now.
Finally, I think the Undead Resolve feature might work better as an attack increase for your undead. The Wizard Necromancer adds proficiency bonus to weapon damage rolls as part of Undead Thralls. Since the undead have such low accuracy, maybe the 10th level Undertaker feature could add proficiency bonus both to attack rolls and damage rolls? Vulgaris Magistralis (talk) 10:14, 22 December 2017 (MST)

I made changes based on the attack bonus and ac bonus for undertaker. I'm skeptical because I don't want to variant the wizard. A lot of homebrews on the site rehash a class or homebrew class and hardly feel different. Its the same with minor changes. I don't think this change with give a Wizard feel, but something to keep in mind as part of my goal, my unique classes, not similar or repetitive content.
I'm gonna pocket increasing the number of AMU to 2 at level 19 until I can look at XGE. The book mentions that 5e is designed to not need magical items, so it's possible that 6 CR 4 (again, iirc) could challenge group of level 20. But I'll see what we can do to gain bonus AMU. I've got an idea brewing, but I want to reference XGE before hashing it out. Thanks for fixing that phrasing too. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 12:48, 22 December 2017 (MST)

I believe the CR amount for an encounter in the DMG assumes you get into several encounters of that difficulty when you at that level, for example a 4 person party will encounter 3/maybe 4 groups of 5-6 CR 4 creatures in a single day as most campaigns do multiple encounters unless they have one massive fight. But that is besides the point, now onto the class. I am liking all the changes to undertaker subclass as it now feels like it has a smoother progression in its power level and doesn't summon double the amount of undead. I don't think I have anything else to say about the class until it is play tested at higher level (15/17/20 would work), or another issue is brought up as the class is looking pretty good.--Blobby383b (talk) 15:43, 22 December 2017 (MST)
I looked it up in XGE and it was saying 4 CR 4 monsters per character. sorry for any confusion. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 20:21, 22 December 2017 (MST)
That makes more sense, also how is XGtE? Is it what you were expecting?--Blobby383b (talk) 20:33, 22 December 2017 (MST)
it's cute. a bunch of content but nothing that said you need this. I take that as how I've grown as DM though. It's nice to have official content to build from as well from homebrew. But no, I was thinking some great clarity and dynamic sub-classes. I still use it for niche things though. Have you started making traps with it? BigShotFancyMan (talk) 00:29, 23 December 2017 (MST)
Not yet, but I have a few unique ideas. When I finally get around to making them, I will probably end up making a bunch. I think the book is a great resource and will be situational useful, but I don't see myself using it very often other than to look up specific things on a new subclass, spell, or downtime rule. Besides that, I believe there are better resources for things like random encounters, names, and other things online.--Blobby383b (talk) 12:18, 23 December 2017 (MST)

I honestly feel like Seance should start at a lower level. I love that ability, and I don't think somewhat transferring consciousness into a lowly zombie would be too broken. It would be nice to have that ability earlier than level 20, perhaps if specified that it could only be used against undead that you've raised yourself. Could even put a limit on it that increases with level. I'm testing this class tonight. Currently looking at the character sheet it seems like it's missing something and i think adding that ability in earlier would help immensely. (If you think it'd stay balanced, that is.)

I think this is where the comment ends, hopefully I clarified the feature better and for Seance I ask that you test play first. I think it is balanced currently, with 18&20 missing humph but possess flavor. I’d much rather rework 20 into a better more wow feature but again, this seems balanced. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 01:00, 10 October 2017 (MDT)

d6 HD instead of d8, or is there justification for a caster to get d8?

Grim Harvest wording should mirror Life Tap where if the feature would kill a creature, gain HP equal to the damage dealt. Speaking of Life Tap, reason for d20? It's an odd die for damage effect. Perhaps a normal d8 without pro bonus? prof bonus is another odd addition.

Complete control seems strong and what if two necromancers engage one another? Who controls what?

Is the downtime activity suppose to be like archetypes? Or is there a reason they are missing? Did you try to make this a archetype but fan-demand wanted a class from you? BigShotFancyMan (talk) 11:46, 27 June 2017 (MDT)

I started working on it to satisfy demand. I did a ton of research. The fans are mostly unregistered users, and none of them give a crap. I abandoned it to them. I still watch the development, but I'm waiting for someone who knows what they're doing to show that they care about the project. Until then, I just let the unregistered kids battle it out through bold edits. It doesn't look like they've changed the DT activity much though, and I think I wrote that myself. They are NOT supposed to be archetypes. I actually had a whole section about how the archetypes could be written. They blanked it. The DT activity exists to allow players of necromancers to become undead beings without making it mandatory of the class. If you're interested, the original version with research and planning can be found here. --Kydo (talk) 15:52, 27 June 2017 (MDT)
So if I did some changes or moved things around (concerning the things above, would you mind?) Check out the before and after of a 5e Chronomancer class edited. If you think what I did was too much and wouldn't want me touching this, I understand. I just bought Diablo 3 Necromancer Pack and Necros are always so cool but WotC never justifies them in my book. You made the bones, I kind of want to fill it out. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 14:38, 28 June 2017 (MDT)
Go for It! Do what you believe is best! If I disagree with something, I'll say so. (Or change it if it's against policy, which I doubt will be an issue) If you'd like, I'll review your work when you feel you're done. In the meantime, I'll reserve editing time for you with the in use template. One week sound good? --Kydo (talk) 22:14, 28 June 2017 (MDT)
Well, I do this at work and things are really super busy now but I will put some effort into at home too lol I think only thing I'll be missing will be archetypes. Somewhere down the road those will get attention. cheers mate. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 05:33, 29 June 2017 (MDT)
Kydo, I've got the class progression in a healthy spot (in my opinion). I am currently looking over features for balance before moving to archetype features. There's a spot below for user/community ideas to help flesh out this undead summoning class archetype features. I am feeling really good about the flavor of this so far. (I am baiting for feedback, assurance that the work is in line with original idea) EDIT: I also want to remove Roc from the monstrosities to control. CR 11 it isn't even close in power to the others nor does the flavor fit. Giants are the same way. I am going to look up options this weekend but two options aren't exactly bad. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 11:23, 30 June 2017 (MDT)
Done. I didn't put descriptions out of laziness but companions really don't get one so I use that to justify Control Legend Undead. Let the community take the surgical knife to it :) BigShotFancyMan (talk) 22:01, 2 July 2017 (MDT)
Hello, BigShotFancyMan, thanks for your suggestions with the Primal Fighter (5e Class). I would like to explain a few things about this class that need to be balanced or clarified. Add a range to Necromancer Master, is it 5ft or is a ranged touch attack with Xft. range? Add names to all the archetypes features. As a general rule of thumb, I believe you should not limit the classes you can multiclass into like how it is with you are not another spellcasting class. Increase the damage the Vampire takes from sunlight and holy objects to a much higher amount like 2d10 or 2d8. Although the damage you take shouldn't be the correct amount of damage a vampire takes, see 5e SRD:Vampire for reference. Also add "While in sunlight, it has disadvantage on attack rolls and ability checks." to the Vampire. The Lich isn't correct according to 5e SRD:Lich, but it sort of works? I like the work you have done on this class, good job.--Blobby383b (talk) 12:46, 10 July 2017 (MDT)
Hey Blobby, thanks for looking it over and the encouragement. I admit I didn't name them out of time. Work is very busy and it's when I work on this stuff. The downtime activities (Lich, Vampire) I didn't even bother balancing so I promise there is something unnatural. I don't like multiclass restrictions, I merely left it as the OPs original idea. I will definitely consider all these things when I polish it up, especially that range (can't believe the oversight). Great job on the Primal Fighter too! BigShotFancyMan (talk) 13:38, 11 July 2017 (MDT)
Glad to help, also don't be too worried about not having time currently to work on this, the class does not need to be completed all at once and we all have different schedules. Besides that, I will be around for a second glance later, good luck with the class and all your other endeavors. --Blobby383b (talk) 17:23, 11 July 2017 (MDT)

Hey BigShotFancyMan, I went through the class more thoroughly this time and made a few minor edits. I have a few notes about what the class could do better that include:

  • I believe that having full spellcasting and up to a CR 6 creature at 7th level for the Animate Major Undead feature is completely broken because your entire party is expected to be able to fight only 1 CR 7 creature at 7th level. I would suggest the reducing of the CR's of the creatures to a much lower level(3/5/8 or even lower).
  • In that same sense, the feature Control Legendary Undead is unbalanced because you basically have a creature that is as powerful as the encounter that your entire party is expected to handle, I would suggest replacing this feature with something else after having a second look at it
  • For the archetypes, all the features need names
  • The 2nd level feature of the Undertaker archetype may need to be changed, because if you are in a good aligned party then the feature will be next to useless, while if you are in an evil aligned party, the feature will be useful, but will still rarely happen. I recommend changing it to all Wisdom saving throws for better consistency.
  • The 6th level feature of the Undertaker archetype should be changed to undead you raise through spells(the feature is overpowered on your other class features, if you want it to affect them, I would suggest reducing the power level of the feature)
  • The 14th level feature of the Undertaker archetype will be a pain for players and DM's to constantly keep track of what vulnerabilities your undead creatures have(having to keep track of multiple creatures is more than enough of a pain in the butt), could you just change it to 3x your proficiency bonus in bonus health?
  • The 6th level feature of the Reaper archetype, does way too much extra damage (13.5 ) at 18th level. Just adding around 4.5 damage to certain spells' damage rolls is incredibly strong
  • The 14th level feature of the Reaper archetype breaks the rules for conventional spell casting with casting spells at 1 higher level and is very strong, you could change it to creatures have disadvantage on saving throws from your necromancy spells or just to the DC of your spells is increase by one
  • Then there is the down time activities which we can get to another time

I am willing to talk about why I thought these changes need to be made in greater detail if needed.--Blobby383b (talk) 22:22, 20 August 2017 (MDT)

Hey Blobby383b, thanks for the input. There's some really good points here and some others I'm not so sure hit the mark. I'll try to hit on each one though.
Your first two bullets are absolutely correct about the features being OP and I only kept with the original idea. I kind of rushed through to polish the class and balanced the things I thought easy to balance. These two, I knew/know I had to come back to.
I don't see an issue with the Wisdom advantage vs Turn Undead. I wanted something to resonate with an undertaker but not be strong. Why do you think it should affect all Wisdom saves (at level 2)? Also, I don't think party alignment has any effect of how useful this is. I think if you are playing this class, there's a campaign in mind or the DM won't allow or the DM will incorporate things for the class.
I can see changing the 6th level feature to only include skeletons and zombies, which I think is more than fair. Thoughts?
I can reword it to say undead you control. I think that is a blanket effect that takes care of it. I don't see it being a pain for anyone really. Yes, DMs track many things, but this is simply the party's undead, they have no vulnerabilities. check. your alternative is a good idea, probably a good substitute. Just a preference thing maybe?
I'm not sure you understand the extra d8. It's not an extra d8 per spell level, or d8 for every die rolled. It is one die, one die only, added to the overall damage of the spell. Still too strong in your opinion?
Good point, and I propose changing it to schools of necromancy. I've looked through and MOST not all, don't scale extra damage directly. There's extra undead summoned and A LOT of spells that don't scale so I think that is a fair thing to do. It is probably my original intent to do that and messed up too.
I never touched the DTA. I don't like them but this is not my creation. So, I left them alone as the creator wants.
BigShotFancyMan (talk) 14:32, 23 August 2017 (MDT)
Blobby383b, check out the "rework" of things. Go easy on me, I feeling really good and proud of what I've done with things. I'm wanting to get the tags of this page, what's left in your opinion? BigShotFancyMan (talk) 14:39, 31 August 2017 (MDT)
I am back, and the class is in great shape. I do have one question and one concern left after looking at the class (also sorry I did not come back sooner to give more feedback life happened). There should probably be a maximum number of souls you can acquire for the Soul Harvest feature or you could have say 50/100/ect. souls and drain 50 hit points from a creature with Grim, I would recommend limiting the maximum number of souls to your necromancer level. Also, Animate Major Undead 11th and 15th level improvements are too powerful and need to be reduced in CR, would a CR of 7 and 10 work(I am not sure of the exact point it would be balanced at, and the feature would still be powerful even with the reduction in CR)? There may be a few more minor things that could be touched up, but the class looks finished and has come a long way from back when it was a bunch of random ideas for features for the class.--Blobby383b (talk) 21:23, 10 September 2017 (MDT)
Yay! I was curious where you were at. A maximum number of souls was originally there. The class sees a lot of anon edits and abuse. I will fix to what I had. Thanks for pointing it out. (It's pretty frustrating, you should see a lot of the edits randoms are making)Also, I don't think it's necessary for Soul Harvest, just Improved Soul Harvest because the class feature doesn't have anything that functions off the class feature. I've got Animate Major Undead CRs to be 3 levels lower than the character level. I can most certainly reduce it by 1 so each level the CR is 4 lower than the character level. I too am not 100% sure what's balanced with this feature. I appreciate your comments man. I showed this to my buddies and they love it. The archetypes are specific and separate. The class does what a necro wants to do. The flavoring for things works out. I don't need pats on the back but man they feel good. The class was mentioned by an admin as being locked from unconfirmed users which I thought was huge because it was included as an edit/rewrite that is good along with ones. Im very happy with and wish trolls would leave it alone lol BigShotFancyMan (talk) 07:30, 11 September 2017 (MDT)
Double post, sorry. I looked at the wizard spells for summoning. Level 7 can summon CR2 elemental, level 9 can summon CR5. I'm more confident about the balance with these changes. Maybe I can NPC this class for test play. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 07:44, 11 September 2017 (MDT)
You deserve the praise, you pretty much reworked the entire class while keeping the core elements of what makes a necro a necro. I also have to say, good job interpreting my look at the class earlier as I was not around to help explain certain things. Finally, going forward, if you ever have any other questions or anything else you need help with, I would be happy to help.--Blobby383b (talk) 12:00, 11 September 2017 (MDT)
Oh man thanks Blobby383b. I'm happy you enjoy and think that much of it. I won't hesitate to ask for your help. Hopefully the life stuff is better for you and you can enjoy some personal stuff. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 12:35, 11 September 2017 (MDT)

There is no spells known column, only cantrips known. Should I just assume that you get to know only as many, spells as sorcerers based on how many you get at level 1? [User: Anonymous ] 14:22, 06 September 2017

It is similar to the wizard class, it doesn't have a Spells Known column either. The details are outlined under the spellcasting class feature description. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 11:02, 10 September 2017 (MDT)
Shouldn't the Spellcasting be modified then? Because the Necromancer table doesn't list a Spells Known column yet it references it.
Also, I don't understand what you mean. Because the wizard has a spellbook that they prepare spells from, while the Necromancer does not.
From what I'm reading, it seems to be saying they only ever know 3 spells. How does that work?--Alearori (talk) 15:33, 30 October 2017 (MDT)
The spellcasting is incorrect, the class gains access to wizard spells but has spellcasting like a sorcerer with no spells known table. Depending on whether you want the necromancer to have a spell book or not, the class's spellcasting should be fixed to be similar to the wizard or the sorcerer. I personally would stick with the sorcerer because the original intent of the class was to have sorcerer spellcasting and the class already has enough powerful features to make up for not knowing as many spells.--Blobby383b (talk) 21:36, 30 October 2017 (MDT)
This is my fault. When wikifying the table and descriptions, I copy pasted wizard spellcasting. I agree with Blobby that a numbers of spells known equal to a sorcerer would be fair. I don't see an issue drawing spells from the wizard spell, I think that is just coming down to people's personal preference. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 10:01, 31 October 2017 (MDT)
One more thing, the Undertaker's Undead Resolve references "Undead you control", but Animate Dead is a 3rd level spell, thus the Necromancer can't learn it til 5th level. How do you get a Undead under your control? Or is this a dead feature til 5th level? --Alearori (talk) 10:35, 31 October 2017 (MDT)
Please, keep the questions coming. You are certainly finding oversights. I think I'm going to switch level 10 with level 3 feature. I'm sure Blobby with comment if it isn't balanced :p BigShotFancyMan (talk) 12:37, 31 October 2017 (MDT)
So about Soul Harvest, does that include the creatures that the Necromancer's minions kill? Because "you" is very exclusive.
And Spontaneous Unburial implies you don't need to choose a corpse, right? And it supposed to say "use" a spellslot, right? Or is it implying something happened to that spellslot?
And not a question, but Animate Major Undead should also disable Legendary Actions, Legendary Traits, and Lair Actions. Just in case there's some kind of Homebrew creature with those at CR 9 and below.
Also, Grim doesn't specify the conditions of when the saving throw will happen such as at the start of that creature's turn or etc. So it seems to imply it's always on or off. Something needs to be added there.
Pretty sure that's it, from my perspective. --Alearori (talk) 13:32, 31 October 2017 (MDT)
I think Alearori's questions need to be adressed, I have the same questions and there isnt a clear answer for them.
Especially the borders of Soul Harvest and Spontaneous Unburial are pretty unclear.
Soul Harvest implies that you in person need to deliver the killing blow and Spontanious unburial seems to imply that you dont need a corpse and that undead just come out of the ground even tho it mentions that it functions as just a animate dead spell --Mr.Storms (talk) 03:17, 1 May 2018 (MDT)
Soul Harvest implies that you in person need to deliver the killing blow and Spontanious unburial seems to imply that you dont need a corpse and that undead just come out of the ground even tho it mentions that it functions as just a animate dead spell --Mr.Storms (talk) 03:17, 1 May 2018 (MDT)

Is it intentional that the class doesn't have ritual casting? Druid, bard, Wizard and warlock have it and I feel it's appropriate for a necromancer to be casting rituals (talk) 26 February 2018

It is very appropriate for a necromancer to have ritual casting, but I don't know whether it was intentional. I am of the opinion that it should be added as well.--Blobby383b (talk) 09:22, 26 February 2018 (MST)
Correct, it was not intentional. I see no reason no to include it. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 09:32, 26 February 2018 (MST)

Mr. Storm, I apologize for not answering those questions. I think that undead you summon should work for Soul Harvest. I say that to make sure multiclassers can't use other summons to benefit. The nature of it should come from necromantic stuff, in my opinion. Spontaneous Unburial does not need a corpse which would be part of the otherwise noted thing, and the spellslot issue will get fixed. I think a good point is made on disabling Legendary stuff as well. Grim's saving throw is not mentioned! and it shall be as soon as I get the page unlocked (it deals with a lot of vandalism). Thanks again, there are a great deal of other issues that have needed attention, so it is definitely time to get this unlocked. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 07:18, 1 May 2018 (MDT)

Thanks a lot for the reply, it took a while before i noticed it because it wasnt directly underneath the reply.
I have another question about the life tap feature. I'm playing the class in a campaign and this question about life tap came up by our DM: is life tap used additional to a touch spell, for example shocking grasp, or on its own as an action? The description is pretty vague about it: "Starting at 1st level, your melee touch spells drain the life from your enemies and heal you." implies that its WITH a touch spell. "As an action, you can make a melee spell attack against a living creature," could suggest it is on its own, "using your necromancer spell attack bonus, dealing necrotic damage equal to 1d6 + your Charisma modifier on a hit." could suggest its added to a touch spell. Personally i think its used as an action instead of with a touch spell cause inflict wounds(3d10+1d6+modifier) and spells like that make you do insane damage early on and gain temporary hit points. But the description can go both ways so its a bit hard to make a decision. Thanks a lot in advance for the reply, you guys are doing great work here, i think its one of the best classes on the wiki. Its pretty visible that a lot of work went into it. Mr.Storms (talk) 03:06, 13 May 2018 (MDT)
That feature definitely needed clarifying, thanks for pointing it out. I also added limited use for some balance. Let me know how at-will vs limited effects things. Appreciate the praise for what we've done. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 07:42, 13 May 2018 (MDT)
I've played with the new rules yesterday and i must say that the limit feels a lot more balanced. I use a lot more cantrips now and I mainly use life-tap as a defensive option for when the enemy gets up close instead as offensive like i've used it before. So as update i think the balance works pretty good for my lvl2 character and i will keep you guys updated if i've played some more. Mr.Storms (talk) 02:10, 21 May 2018 (MDT)

Hello, BigShotFancyMan, I was talking with a friend about building a duo team between a Necromancer and an Oath Breaker paladin when something sort of came up. Seance, at level 20, is effectively weaker than the Oath Breaker's Channel Divinity: Control Undead at lvl 20. The Necromancer's is line of sight but the Oath Breaker, for being within 30 feet, can control any <= CR 20 Undead that fail their save without worrying about hourly saves for having a high Intelligence score. Both abilities are once per long rest but the paladin gets theirs at lvl 3 whereas it's the Necromancer's CAPSTONE. It seems a bit peculiar that a Necromancer, Lord of the Undead, should have to worry about something an evil Paladin can easily handle. Almost all the mid-to-high undead (CR10+), save for a few, would be making hourly saves for the Necromancer whereas the paladin has 24 hours of complete obedience. I feel like an increased duration (my friend suggested a week or permanent), a removal of the Intelligence based saves for undead with Intelligence scores/CR equal to or less than the Necromancer's Charisma, or just something more could help this overshadowed capstone. (P.S. Sorry, this is my first time editing a wiki. I hope it's done correctly.) TexasTies (talk)

First, I think you did a great job formatting your post. Kudos! Second, I appreciate this feedback so much. I will most assuredly look at this, my issue now is that it is just rehashed feature from another class. I'd like to make the capstone feel different than another class's feature. The suggestions are good, I've just heard enough from WotC that things should be new not reused.
Other side note, for Mr.Storms. I am sorry I never responded to your post-thank you as well for the playtest feedback. I was very happy to hear it went well.
If either of you, or anyone has capstone feature suggestions lets hear it! Cheers peeps :) BigShotFancyMan (talk) 08:28, 6 August 2018 (MDT)

Occult Idea: Keeper[edit]

(This is my first time editing a wiki, so please tell me if I do anything wrong) This class has come a LONG way since I fisrt laid eyes on it, and I love what it's become. But I feel that only 2 archetypes just isn't quite enough, so I threw one together. I figured it could be used by someone that wants an evil healer or maybe a good Necromancer? Tell me what you think of it and what should be changed!

Necromancer Occult: Keeper

An eager doctor's assistant stays late after a failed surgery to stitch the cadaver closed, and prepare it for transport to the undertaker. But while he has the remains here to himself, he sees no harm in a little research. This case was an odd one, and he'd like to know more about it. As he conducts his experiments, he murmurs to the body, "Let's see where it all went wrong, and where we can do better next time."

Necromancers of this Occult study death in order to keep it at bay, whether it be for their own benefit or for another. Keepers have a deep and intricate understanding of why creatures die, and how to slow death or stop it all together. But the things necessary to obtain such knowledge are not for the faint of heart, or those lacking resolve.

Life On Demand. Beginning at 2nd level, you can unlock the body's natural healing abilities when it's needed the most. As an action on your turn, you can enable one creature you touch to use a number of the creature's choice of it's hit dice up to your spellcasting modifier (minimum of 0) to heal itself. At 5th level, that creature can also add it's Constitution modifier once to the health gaind this way (regardless of how many hit dice were used).

Expanded Intellect Beginning at 6th level, your studies of death and undeath have opened up new possibilities for you. You gain the Spare the Dying cantrip. You also learn the following spells: Cure Wounds, Lesser Restoration, Beacon of Hope, Feign Death, Revivify, Death Ward, Greater Restoration, Resurrection, Mass Heal. These spells do not count against your cantrips or spells known.

Aura of Wellbeing Beginning at 10th level, you emanate an aura that wards against death and illness. You and friendly creatures within 15 feet of you have resistance to necrotic and poison damage. Additionally, you and those creatures have advantage on Wisdom saves against madness.

Refusal Beginning at 14th level, you can decide to ignore death if it's too inconvenient. The next time a creature within 5 feet of you that you can touch (including you) would drop to 0hp, you may use your reaction to let that creature drop 1hp instead. You must finish a long rest before you can use this ability again.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by NumYummy94 (talkcontribs). Please sign your posts.

Wow, I must say I am really happy to see another subclass idea that has its own identity but still fits within this class. Thanks for the support on what this is too. A lot of work went into this. I am curious of a couple things:
  • 2nd level- how do you feel limiting this to a number of uses equal to your charisma modifier? I don’t like it but seems fair.
  • 10th level-can you justify poison? I feel that it’s unneccesaary, flavorfully and balance wise. But just one dude. Also, I’d prefer fear or madness since madness is alternative rule. What do you think about this?
overall, I can explain my excitement for this. Also, just a wiki formality, type this symbol ~ four times to sign your posts. Helps us know who we’re talking to as well :) welcome to the wiki and thanks for the idea. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 11:08, 17 February 2018 (MST)
The subclass looks great, with the few minor tweaks BigShotFancyMan suggested, it should be ready to go. The only thing I am worried about now looking back at the class is the fact that you can repeatedly gain 1d6 + your cha modifier temporary hit points with Life Tap at 1st level which allows the class to repeatedly tank shots they normally would not be able to take at lower levels. This feature largely needs to be looked at again for a way to balance it as currently, as it can repeatedly provides an effect similar to false life which is a 1st level spell.--Blobby383b (talk) 13:26, 17 February 2018 (MST)
I think this came up before and I didn’t understand the power of the current version. I see your point and sadly agree. I’d like multiple uses of it but almost think the class has a lot of this. A short/long rest feature could do some good, and with the healing gained later, the class shouldn’t need multiple uses of Life Tap. Opinion? BigShotFancyMan (talk) 13:47, 17 February 2018 (MST)
I think the feature would be far too swingy in terms of power level between when you hit and when you miss if was only useable once every short/long rest. Might I suggest that we just change the amount of temporary hit points instead? For example, changing the feature to say "You gain temporary hit points equal to your proficiency bonus + half your necromancer level rounded down" would allow you to use the feature more than once yet not be too powerful.--Blobby383b (talk) 16:20, 17 February 2018 (MST)
Thanks for responding and helping me out!
  • 2nd level- Limiting it a little might not be a bad idea, but I would like to point out that hit dice are a finite resource which is dependent on character level. If you use this ability to spend hit dice in battle, then you don't have them if your party decides to take a short rest. Side note: I might add something to the ability like "creatures that spend hit dice in this way do not regain those hit dice until they finish a long rest."
  • 10th level- You make some good points here. Imo I think poison fits in great, but I guess it is a little unbalanced. And I didn't know that madness is an alternative rule, so I guess doesn't make sense to put it in here. But I also don't really like fear in this situation either. What do you all think about advantage on CON saves against diseases?
So once all of the details are flushed out, is it possible for this archetype to get onto the actual necromancer page? And what would it take for that to happen? NumYummy94 (talk) 08:51, 25 February 2018 (MST)
If we can come to a consensus, I can either add this information to the page myself, or unlock the page so someone else can. — Geodude671 Chatmod.png (talk | contribs | email)‎ . . 09:20, 25 February 2018 (MST)

I think working out a time for me to add it would be difficult. Feel free to add the subclass Geo or if you and Blobby want to coordinate so he can cool beans. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 13:20, 25 February 2018 (MST) I overlooked Num’s response. I think I assumed you’d be limited to HD but the ability to do it outside of short rest is pretty good. I won’t make a stink about the poison. A few other eyes are watching this, seems fair to get a concession what we think. The core class becomes immune to disease. So advantage against them is moot. And looking closer, same with poison (immune). Curious, why don’t you like the fear? BigShotFancyMan (talk) 13:31, 25 February 2018 (MST)

I forgot about the immunities, so I guess we can find something else. What does everyone think of resistance to radiant damage? That's a less common damage type. And fear just doesn't quite fit what I had originally envisioned for this subclass. But I don't have that much of an objection to it, if other people like it we can use it. NumYummy94 (talk) 19:53, 26 February 2018 (MST)
Scratch that last part, the necromancer also gets immunity to fear, so that won't work either. NumYummy94 (talk) 22:58, 26 February 2018 (MST)
Frightened =/= Fear. What did you envision? What ways would radiant apply flavorfully? I thought the suggestions really helped balance the subclass without changing the idea of this from the lore you provided. Still a big fan of this and really would like it added. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 09:25, 27 February 2018 (MST)
How does adding something situational but flavorful like immune to effects/things that cause instant death or immune to effects that reduce a creature's maximum hit points sound?--Blobby383b (talk) 10:33, 2 March 2018 (MST)
I would be open hears to protection from instant death, the other is already on the Undertaker as level two subclass feature. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 10:45, 2 March 2018 (MST)

Features Removed for balancing[edit]

Undead Companion[edit]

Beginning at 3rd level, you gain an undead companion that accompanies you on your adventures and is trained to fight alongside you. Choose between a wolf, raven, mastiff or panther and treat them as skeleton (they gain damage vulnerabilities & immunities, condition immunities, and Undead Nature feature). Add your proficiency bonus to the undead's AC, attack rolls, and damage rolls, as well as any saving throws and skills it is proficient in (the undead gains proficiency in the same saving throws for your necromancer class). It's hit point maximum equals the hit point number in its stat block or six times your necromancer level, whichever is higher. Like any creature, it can spend Hit Dice during a short rest to regain hit points. The undead obeys your commands as best as it can. It takes its turn on your initiative, though it doesn't take an action unless you command it to. On your turn, you can telepathically command the undead to move (no action by you). You can use your bonus action to telepathically command it to take the Attack, Dash, Disengage, Dodge, or Help action. If you are absent or incapacitated, the undead acts on its own, focusing on protecting you and itself. The undead never requires your command to use its reaction, such as when making an opportunity attack. If the undead dies, you can obtain a new companion by spending 1 hour magically bonding with a pile bones and meets the requirements (wolf, raven, etc).

Control Legendary Undead[edit]

Starting at 17th level, you can choose to have one of the following companions instead of your Undead Companion. These companions do not gain any benefits like your Undead Companion does nor do they gain any benefits from your archetype choice; they use their stat blocks from the monster manual. By spending a week concentrating you may change the companion to another one. Your old companion disappears in a cloud of black smoke and cannot be found again.

Monster Manual page 84
Monster Manual page 48
Death Knight[edit]
Monster Manual page 47

Down Time Activity[edit]

Only characters of the Necromancer class, or wizards of the school of necromancy, may choose to engage in this down time activity. At an expense of both time and money, the character may join the undead. This gives the main befit of undead based immortality, and each method has its advantages, but undeath also comes with many disadvantages. Undead do not need food, water, or air. When an undead character is dying, all medicine checks to stabilize them automatically fail. Their body is technically already dead.


You may abandon your mortal coil, to become an being of pure immaterial spirit. Like a living spell, you become intangible. You are able to fly and hover continuously at a height equal to your charisma score in feet. Mundane and unsilvered weapons pass through you, dealing no damage. You can pass through objects and structures of a thickness up to your level in feet. As a side-effect, you cannot carry material possessions for any meaningful span of time, as interacting with objects is exhausting. You can interact with a single object at a time, for a duration equal to your level in minutes. You cannot wear physical clothing of any kind, except when interacting with it as an object. You have no resistance to magical effects of any kind, and cannot receive such resistances from any racial or class features, feats, boons, or from magical effects or items. You are invisible in direct sunlight, but otherwise visible. You cannot die from old age and you can become invisible for a duration equal to your level in minutes. You must complete a short or long rest before using this feature again. Your appearance is somewhat subject to your will. You can appear clothed however you wish, and you can alter your features as you wish. You can change your size one size smaller and larger at will. Your shape is either humanoid or a deformed ball of black smoke.

  • 100 days.
  • 500 gp
  • A silvered dagger.


You may do extensive research to create the vampiric curse; a spell which causes one to become a vampire without dying in the first place. You then cast this spell upon yourself to obtain an immortal life. This is not without consequences. Direct or indirect sunlight is harmful to you, as if a torch flame to your skin, dealing 1d6 damage per round. Any holy object or material (garlic, holy symbols, silver, blessed objects and locations) recoil at your existence and likewise burn upon touch, dealing 1d6 damage per round. You can only feed upon fresh blood, of which you need the same amount as a living creature would need water, otherwise you are without need of food, drink, or air.

  • 200 days.
  • 1,000 gp.
  • A humanoid virgin sacrifice. Reduce gp cost by half if the sacrifice is the same race as you.


The magnum opus of necromancer, you can become a true undead in corporeal form. This is achieved by binding your soul to a non-living object- something which can last for centuries- and haunting your corpse. As a result, you do not need to eat, drink, breathe, or sleep. (Though rest of the mind, in some form or another, is still necessary) You will live forever. However, there is nothing preserving your body. It is dead and will rot away until all that is left is bone dust. Modifications to your body are incorporated as if they are simply a part of it. Your phylactory- the object you bound your soul to- must remain undamaged. If it is ever destroyed, you will die. Your phylactory must be within range of your corpse in order for you to possess it. This range is equal to your level ×10. If your body is ever destroyed (drop to 0 hp) it takes a number of days equal to your maximum hp to restore control of it.

  • 300 days.
  • 5,000 gp.
  • An object, able to be carried in one hand, made of stone, metal, or ceramic, with a value of your level in gp or greater.


That is a ton of work! Do you guys feel this thing is getting close to what you think it should be? I'd be happy to run it through the wringer a few times and see how it measures up. --Kydo (talk) 20:53, 12 September 2017 (MDT)

I absolutely do. I have a session tonight I'd like to use it in if it fits. I'd love others' help play testing since my group is every other week. There isn't anything I'd add other than more flavor, a photo? and clerical touching up. Thanks for the "Wow" title too. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 07:21, 13 September 2017 (MDT)
I already believe that the class is at a usable point, and my thoughts mirror BigShotFancyMan's on the class. Specifically, I believe that class could be tinkered with a bit more because there may still be some problems with balance or info(no limit on the souls for grim for example) that we missed. I also hope the testing session goes well, both as a test run for the class and to see whether this would be something a PC may want to play as in the future. --Blobby383b (talk) 09:16, 13 September 2017 (MDT)
I think you mentioned the Soul Harvest before but the base class has no need to limit because it doesn't use the souls for anything. Improved Soul Harvest for the Reaper archetype does and did manage to get my limit back on it, number equal to necromancer level. Totally needs tested from where it is at though. (AND ITS PROTECTED WOOT) BigShotFancyMan (talk) 16:39, 13 September 2017 (MDT)

Test Play Experience[edit]

I finally got to test play this. I had the environment set up in the Necromancer's favor, race Elf and level 10. Went with Undertaker archetype. The party is/was 4 level 6 PCs: Earth Genasi-Barbarian, Frenzy Homebrew Race(regen 5hp/round, resist poison, adv. on enchants & illusion saves, immune to disease)-Revised Ranger, Hunter Conclave Human-Fighter, Homebrew Gunslinger Human-Homebrew Witcher, I forgot the school Every member has a magical weapon.

The underground room was 40x40ft and rather tall ceiling. I had thrown dungeon tile pieces all across the floor as dead carcasses or biles of bones and then I had 15 basic zombie/skellys walking around. I had included 4 basic werewolves, they had a story reason which isn't discovered. They walked in and the Necro was a trusted NPC from years ago, but things have changed so in the middle of the trap they go (real life, they knew, RP well) eventually, trusted friend turns undead on party, werewolves (ww) join in. I used one Fireball and invisibility spell. I had to calculate the spontaneous animate dead, I had extra undead on the field, no matter. all in all, I killed one PC (the gunslinger) my homebrew mutant (based on Deadpool) had no issue and the barbarian was hurting. I used an elephants as the animate greater undead creature. worked well. Overall, 4 level 6 PCs handle the event medium risk. There's homebrew which make it harder to evaluate but dice rolls weren't crazy, pretty fair. Life tap wasn't used and seems very underwhelming considering other options, but I hope when options run out, it is that life saving feature. As an NPC, soul harvest may not be fun. I thought about using it to kill my own undead to heal, but didn't think to do it. I'm on the fence if it should be allowed, the idea killing your own minions for gain is sadistic and cool for a necro. The Undertake extra hp didn't matter, but the perk to AC was super nice. I think it is balanced but the HP boost is laughable. Maybe since all the minions got it, 15x4=60, you could argue it was balanced but I think a beefier undead is would feel better. The other two features didn't come into play but I think they are still good archetype features. Not everything should apply in all situations. I think the test play was good, my players knew about this class and were happy to see it. Please ask questions. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 11:35, 29 October 2017 (MDT)

Sounds like you had fun play testing the class. Based on what you said about Life tap, it may be better to make it scale the damage up to 4d6 (the same way it is stated in cantrips), make it rechargeable only after you finish a long rest, and make the temporary hit points not go away. That way, it makes the feature feel much more like a powerful backup measure. For soul harvest the idea is fine, but the power level is not. I will probably slightly rework that feature to be more balanced, and you can tell me what you think of it after it is done. I think the Undertaker archetype is fine, you get beefier undead at 14th level, and the archetype shouldn't front load all its powerful features and make your undead too powerful too soon. I am also curious/still worried about the higher level animate major undead, since that was left untested, and would prefer if the feature had a 3/6/9 spread instead of the feature gaining 4 CR on improvement. I say this because the feature may still be too powerful at higher levels and because my original suggestion for the feature was 3/5/8. Besides that, if you can think of any other possible improvements for the class based on the play test or by looking through the class, could you bring them up as well?--Blobby383b (talk) 11:50, 30 October 2017 (MDT)
I'm really excited about Life Tap changes. It looks like it might have the panache it needs to be considered for use. The Soul Harvest rework I don't think was necessary. It was non-factor in my encounter so it is hard to judged. Regaining hit points vs temporary hit points is a big issue though. If we have to tweak numbers or whatever fine but the flavor is definitely for the necro to sustain off the feature. With the adjustment to double the CR, I think that'd be a fair number to regain. But more temp hp is just bleh.
I agree about undertaker. healthy place and power level seems smooth. I did avoid higher levels because of animate greater undead. As I was developing the encounter I thought, "oh man, that seems strong" so I agree this is a needed change. I like moving towards 3/6/9. I think 5/8 will be underwhelming. I played this similar to a boss vs as a PC, so some balance aspects will be off, hate to over-nerf.
With that, thanks for reading my playtest and offering suggestions. I haven't quite given thought to anything else needing touch ups. If I play, I'll see if my DM lets me do this which would provide a lot more insight vs and NPC BBEG. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 13:28, 30 October 2017 (MDT)
Nice work. I'll unlock the page. Let me know if anyone is abusing this temp unlock. --ConcealedLightThis user is an administrator (talk) 05:00, 4 May 2018 (MDT)

Feature Updates[edit]

With the recommendation by TexasTies, I was evaluating the features and considered this:
Port the oathbreaker feature to 5th level.
Create a new capstone feature.
My concerns are a feature at a level when 3rd level spells come online. I don't think spontaneous unburial is strong enough to remove, but controlling undead may be. I spoke before about creating a new feature, but the possibility to control any undead for the undead king seems like common sense. (my own oversight). Are there other thoughts? BigShotFancyMan (talk) 09:31, 6 August 2018 (MDT)

Hello again, BigShotFancyMan! Since bringing up that Capstone issue, I've been wracking my brain for something that would work as a final ability that would be fitting for any Necromancer subclass. I've come up with this:
The Grim Harvest: Starting at 20th level, the area around you, the Necromancer, becomes a volatile zone of death and necrotic magic. You have learned to sew the agony of the newly departed's death into those nearby. Whenever an enemy creature dies within 60 feet of the Necromancer, you may use your reaction to target it and cause an explosion of necrotic energy. Any number of creatures of your choice within 10 feet of the targeted creature must make a Constitution save. On a failed save, they take 8d6 necrotic damage and only half as much damage if they succeed. If this damage kills any other creatures, you may target one of the creatures killed by this damage to cause a secondary explosion but the damage is reduced to 4d6 with damaged halved on a successful save. If this secondary explosion kills any more creatures, you may target one of the creatures killed by this secondary damage to repeat the explosion a third time but the damage is reduced to 2d6 with no damage on a successful save. Any undead you control within the radius of the initial effect are healed for half the amount of necrotic damage done by the first explosion. You regain use of this feature after completing a short or long rest.
As for shifting around Spontaneous Unburial, that almost feels like it'd be a feature for the Undertaker. You could make it an Undertaker feature while adjusting some things within the specialization.
Unholy Resilience: Beginning at 2nd level, the time you've spent wielding negative energy has made it a part of you and the undead you control. You and any undead that you create have resistance to necrotic damage and your hit point maximum cannot be reduced. At 5th level, Skeletons and zombies you raise have additional hit points and bonuses to their melee attack rolls equal to your proficiency bonus.
Spontaneous Unburial: Starting at 6th level, your bond with necrotic and negative energy allows you to raise the dead in exchange for your spells. As an action, you can sacrifice a spell slot to cast animate dead equal to the spell slot you sacrificed minus 1 (minimum 3rd level). You do not need a corpse or pile of bones; the skeleton or zombie will claw its way up from underground and acts on your next turn.
Improved Undead: Beginning at 10th level, your bond with the dead has imbued them with power against those that would seek their destruction. Undead you control have advantage on Wisdom saving throws against Turn Undead attempts. In addition, undead you raise add your proficiency bonus to their armor class and damage rolls.
Lord of the Undead: Beginning at 14th level, you've reached the epitome of raising undead. Your undead creatures no longer have any innate damage vulnerabilities and gain additional hit points equal to your Necromancer level.
This was a huge post but I hope it helps and that the changes in my suggestion don't make the Undertaker too overpowered for a subclass. I am also open to working out anything to do with The Grim Harvest Capstone. I thought it was flavorful and unique to the Necromancer instead of just "I summon/control more undead!" because, let's be honest, he and every other wizard can do that. TexasTies (talk) 02:34, 8 August 2018 (MDT)
I just learned/realized that Blobby383b (talk) is the original creator and not BigShotFancyMan (talk). Sorry about that. I hope either are okay with the suggestion above. TexasTies (talk) 19:33, 15 August 2018 (MDT)
I do believe it was Kydo who created the article, Blobby and I collaborated together on this. I apologize that no one has responded sooner. Both are quite busy at the moment. I will try to get to this after I edit another page in dire need of attention. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 18:42, 18 August 2018 (MDT)
Well, I did start a draft back when I last posted, then got caught up in who knows what. Anyhow, I like spontaneous burial for the class. In my opinion, classes each have something like an identity whether its rage, inspiration, wild shape, feats, sneak attack, etc and for this class the spontaneous undead summoning is that to me. To shift it on a subclass would be take away from the class identity.
Grim Harvest is a cool feature, and while I drew inspiration from Diablo III when editing this class, it was inspiration that classes need identities. It also fits with WotC philosophy that new stuff should do new things. All that to say, exploding corpses is new for D&D but it is a Diablo III Necromancer thing (which I'd like to create a version of D3's Necro sometime). I use copyright tags a lot so it isn't that issue that bugs me, just wanted something non-D3 for this dude.
When controlling undead was brought up, I wanted to create something that actually said undead patriarch/matriarch. The idea the current capstone is significantly weaker than other classes doing bugged me. So for now I've mimicked (which bothers me because it isn't "new") the oathbreaker thing. Grim Harvest can be a variant capstone I'll add to it, though exploding corpses is a really low level ability in Diablo 3 but whatever works. Sorry again I never responded. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 07:36, 24 September 2018 (MDT)
Just going to say I really like Grim Harvest. —ConcealedLightChatmod.png (talk) 08:58, 24 September 2018 (MDT)
Well, in the spirit of collaboration, if the community deems Grim Harvest more appropriate for the capstone feature than so it shall be. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 09:27, 24 September 2018 (MDT)
I understand not wanting to have the modified version of Spontaneous Unburial solely within the Keeper's domain, though I think it would make sense given that summoning minions is that subclasses' unique flavor within the class as a whole. For the reference to Diablo. It's actually a similarity to a Diablo II ability, not Diablo III, that I drew inspiration from. Corpse Explosion was a low tier Diablo II ability in the Bone Spell tree that was so overpowered that they had to nerf it into the ground because it was ruining game balance. Regardless, I wanted to put a spin on it and make it special to the Necromancer class. The necromancer takes the enemy's soul in the midst of the transition between life to death and uses that energy to his own advantage. The Grim Harvest deals great AoE damage with a rarely resisted damage type, you can have it chain for free if it does its job, and it heals your undead minions in the meantime. While it might have drawn inspiration from Diablo II's corpse explosion, I think it's still very much unique to both it and D&D. No corpses exploding here.
I appreciate that you put in Grim Harvest as a trial-Capstone but I think, with the adjustments you made to it, it is now far worse than the original design. The reasons being:
  • Firstly, it is no longer friendly to your party. It's actually incredibly deadly to your enemies, your allies, and even your summons. Even though it heals your undead for half the amount it deals, they're still taking the full amount of damage from every blast (if you're not a Keeper subclass) because you don't control the targets within the blast and everybody is hit.
  • Secondly, the exponential increase of secondary blasts is what I wanted to actively avoid when I designed it. I wanted a powerful capstone but I didn't want an ability that would end an entire encounter in one go if you get lucky on a damage roll. The way it's written, you get secondary explosions off of your allies, which can likely kill even more allies and summons. You can wipe the entire field with it. The maximum amount of blasts in the original write up was 3 if you got lucky on two deaths. The theoretical limit on this one is in the upper 20s (dealing with insane density and low-level creatures here) and that's an overwhelming amount of dice. If I wanted to abuse this as it's currently written, I'd herd all of my minions around some enemies and focus one down. Have all my minions fail their saves and suddenly I'm sitting on a necrotic atomic bomb.
  • Lastly, I liked the feel of the echoing blasts. Three distinct blasts that subsequently get weaker but each singular blast represented enough rather than getting lost amidst an insane cacophony of secondary explosions. The rule of three applies very well here and I think the rewrite loses that feel. It's not quite as mechanical as the first two reasons but it's definitely an aspect of flavor I think shouldn't be lost.
I can understand how it may feel clunky at first but I don't see any reason to have changed The Grim Harvest that I wrote. In my personal opinion, the changes that have been made to it make it a bad capstone. I don't have the capability to edit it but I'd ask if you could reconsider the changes you made to it and have the original The Grim Harvest instead. Thank you for your time, thoughts, and patience with this fantastic class. Hope we can hammer this thing into proper shape. TexasTies (talk) 22:21, 24 September 2018 (MDT)
I nerfed it because I didn't think it to fit within a 5e design. Tertiary effects that is. I mean, I'll add it back. No big deal. Just like you said, the feature is clunky and takes a person a second to understand what it does. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 14:41, 25 September 2018 (MDT)

Flawed Design[edit]

I've known this for months now, and I've pondered what best way to fix this: Spontaneous Unburial serves no purpose for a class that doesn't prepare spells.
I'd prefer not to give this class a book like Wizards, and they don't need access to all the arcane spells the way a divine caster does. I like the sorcerer style of casting, but community could decide.
My thought was to replace spontaneous unburial with that paladin subclass feature that allows control any undead. Or are there other suggestions? Leave it just with animate dead? a couple more spells? or remove any feature since they get 3rd level spells anyhow? what an oversight on my part, apologies. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 11:44, 17 October 2018 (MDT)

I don't see the flaw in it: it allows you to cast animate undead as an action instead of a 1 minute casting time and not need any nearby bodies/bones to be targeted for the cast. It's great for battle and really sets the Necromancer class apart from a Wizard with the Necromancer subclass. The phrasing of "sacrificing a spell slot" might need to be tweaked or removed to say "You may cast Animate Dead as an action instead of the usual 1 minute casting time. You do not need a..." Otherwise, there's nothing I can see that requires any changes mechanically.
Maybe I just don't understand what you're saying? Can you expand upon what you see is an issue? TexasTies (talk) 14:28, 18 October 2018 (MDT)
guess I forgots animate dead took 1 minute. Man, please disregard. Feature is dope! BigShotFancyMan (talk) 16:03, 18 October 2018 (MDT)
I guess the only other thing that may need attention is the fact the class learns and does not prepare spells and as such shouldn't have ritual casting. For example, because the class does have ritual casting, you can cast any ritual spell from the wizard spell list which you haven't learned, which is crazy.--Blobby383b (talk) 08:33, 19 October 2018 (MDT)

Animate Dead as a Ritual[edit]

I just had this epiphany while looking at another spell. How do others feel about it making animate dead a ritual for a capstone feature or some high level feature? or put it on one of the subclasses? think about it before immediately shooting down an idea I am super excited about lol :p ~ BigShotFancyMan (talk) 07:50, 13 December 2018 (MST)

It certainly fits with the thematic feel of a necromancer sitting there casting a long winding spell that summons undead. I like it. The only issue I see is it clashes a bit with Spontaneous Unburial in the core class (which is itself an amazing feature.) I think it would fit best with, as you suggest, one of the subclass: Undertaker. To keep it in line with it's potential power, it could be added to the Undertaker's 14th level subclass feature. Afterall, it does say "You reach the epitome of raising undead." Immediately following that, just say "You may now cast Animate Undead as a ritual and your undead creatures no longer-"
It compliments the Undertaker and their likely larger army better than the other subclasses. It also allows the necromancer to reassert control over their army without the need of using spell-slots, something the minion specific subclass would likely benefit from the most. We should probably consider this class pretty air-tight at around this point though. It's getting near power-creep levels (despite my love for and currently playing of this class.) TexasTies (talk) 23:29, 15 December 2018 (MST)
Haha power creep is my fear so thanks for the input. The only reason I didn't see it infringing on base class spontaneous unburial is that the ritual takes 10 minutes and no spell slot vs casting a spell ie a spell slot and its an action. Like, I think there is significant difference and option there. But, still awaiting more input. This is good stuff. ~ BigShotFancyMan (talk) 23:36, 15 December 2018 (MST)
Might as well try it out and see where the stench of death takes us. —ConcealedLightChatmod.png (talk) 10:04, 16 December 2018 (MST)
Alright, I gave the core class the feature because I thought Reaper and Undertaker both deserved this. It happens at 14th level to coincide with the Necromancer getting their final subclass feature too. I've only NPC'd this once. have to get some player testplays with this. ~ BigShotFancyMan (talk) 09:15, 17 December 2018 (MST)

Some food for thought[edit]

I would really love to see some type of communication back and forth between a necromancers creations and himself. Even for nothing more than some fun in the RP scene of this class I think some kind of implementing of the undead being able to speak (maybe only skeletons cause Zombies are too unintelligent) to the necromancer would be really cool. Being able to designate one of your 6, 7, 8 undead creations as your second in command or maybe even just picking a favorite out of your horde and trying to deck him out in magic items, the ability to talk to your undead would be really cool I think. Just putting it out there, obviously all the inner workings is for the smarter people to deal with :P —The preceding unsigned comment was added by notdndwiki (talkcontribs). Please sign your posts.

Were you able to figure out your other question? About major undeads?
And a mechanic for sentience seems unnecessary. Undead don't need sentience to be equipped with magic items and I would rather see a spell created for the wizard spell list that allows sensory through the undead. An undead lieutenant seems very cool if that is what you are seeking. I just don't think it needs baked into a class with a lot already doing that. ~ BigShotFancyMan (talk) 06:28, 7 January 2019 (MST)
Yes actually I realized what I was talking about was just moronic in a sense lol I wasn't actually reading into the class itself and the idea of the major undead concept I had was just silly. Apologies for not signing my previous post I'm new to editing and what not so I'm still picking up on the formatting though I've been on the site for a while I usually just read up. I suppose you're right about the sentience and maybe I can simply convince my DM to allow me to study up with my undead and somehow formulate a sentient / telepathic bond or something, specifics can be worked out. Thanks for responding, I'm currently playing this class for the first time in a campaign tonight so I'm hoping it works out and I'm interested to see how it goes. ~ Notdndwiki
Don't sweat the signature, the thing I placed is a standard template. You can sign your name by clicking the signature button at the top of the edit options (not sure what we call them). It is to the right of the red circle. Otherwise typing "~" four times does the trick too.
I am thrilled to hear a player is using this. Please share in test play experience whether its here or my talk page. I am sad that sentience isn't something that is easy to throw as I said it is really cool idea but already we have so much baked in. I heard on twitter the idea of using magic items to test out things. Maybe your DM could do this? The post went on to say that if the idea isn't like, destroy the item! A lot easier that changing and making rules or class features. ~ BigShotFancyMan (talk) 06:38, 10 January 2019 (MST)

No idea how to edit, but hopefully this works. So I’ve been playing this Necromancer for a little while now with keeper subclass, still relatively new to D&D as a whole, only played two other campaigns and only up to lvl 5ish. So I’m pretty confused about how this class works. We just hit lvl 8, and I decided to go through my spells. I then realized that I have about 22 spells known. I know the class gives you some to “learn from” and you auto learn Animate undead(my DM also allowed me to exchange knowledge on certain spells with another PC, which only accounts for 1 extra), but I’m not sure where I messed up. I also realized that there’s no “preparing” spells info on the whole wiki, which confused tf out of me.J5andmann (talk) 16:32, 20 January 2019 (MST)

I've been playing this 5e Necromancer for a few months now, only level 5 so far because we've hit a lull in the story, but I think I know what might have happened (without having seen any of your character sheet.) The first thing I would say is in regard to those 22 spells. That sounds almost exactly like the amount you would have at 8th level if you added the spells from the 6th level Keeper subclass feature to your known spells instead of just adding them to the spells you can learn. I might be wrong but, again, I haven't seen your character sheet. The second thing I would say is that there is no "preparing" spells because the Necromancer is based on a Sorcerer's spell-casting, not a Wizard's. They don't need to prepare any spells because they know their spells. In a sense, they are always prepared and any can be chosen from at any time if the Sorcerer (see Necromancer) has the proper spell slots. With this in mind, I hope this clears some stuff up for ya! ~ TexasTies (talk) 01:57, 21 January 2019 (MST)

Ah, I now see the error. Yes that is exactly what i was doing. I have been reading this as a wizard class and imo it has been working just fine and tbh fits the character ive created perfectly. He is a doctor who was intrigued by death, so he has been devoted to the studies of life and death his whole life, and that is where he has gained his knowledge. I started off with the six spells and have been learning two each level as wizards do. I followed the rules for having prepared spells according to wizard class, and it doesn't seem broken, my character is still relatively squishy. I picked spell sniper, so i can chill touch from a distance, and when they get close i have my skellies and my life tap. J5andmann (talk) 12:46, 22 January 2019 (MST)

Thanks so much for helping TexasTies and I love your character concept J5andmann. Your inputs are greatly appreciated. I’m thrilled the questions had simple solutions too! :p ~ BigShotFancyMan (talk) 16:37, 22 January 2019 (MST)

Template Call[edit]

The reason I labeled it as a "bad template call" is because it was called twice, and based on the template "extrasonright" isn't a thing. It's only "extrasonleft". Without the "extraonleft" set to the correct value, additional columns will default to the right of the features list. Putting "extrasonright" is the same as not having "extrasonright" there. Coaldstone (talk) 15:33, 29 January 2019 (MST)

Improved Soul Harvest and initial cost for 1st level spell slot.[edit]

In Improved Soul Harvest feature it says: You can consume souls to regain up to a 3rd level spell slot, which costs 2 souls for every additional spell level beyond 1st level. For instance, a 3rd level spell would consume 6 souls.

This makes it look like 1st level slot have different cost than other levels. If 1st level spell slot costs 2, then it should be stated before "which costs 2 souls for every additional spell level" line. Or maybe it's a mistake and there's a difference between 1st level slot cost and other ones. Either way, i think it's better to make it clear. -- Nick_Vendel 02:22, 6 February 2019 (MST)

I think I understood what you meant and removed some words that I think make it work as intended. Let me know if that is correct. ~ BigShotFancyMan (talk) 06:50, 6 February 2019 (MST)
Also note the difference I made to Improved Soul Harvest regarding the souls dealing damage equal to the charisma modifier. I am not sure I added this or not but at level 20 that could be an extra 100 necrotic damage, something I find far superior to any core class feature. ~ BigShotFancyMan (talk) 06:55, 6 February 2019 (MST)
Thank you for clarifying this feature. I guess, i still need to change my file to update its balance regarding Charisma Modifier, not a big deal. Good luck with your future projects. -- Nick_Vendel 08:12, 8 February 2019 (MST)
Also, want to add that i changed equipment choice from a crescent scythe to just scythe in my file, since crescent scythe is Martial Weapon, while Necromancer gets proficiency only in Simple ones. -- Nick_Vendel 09:12, 8 February 2019 (MST)
Ah yeah, good call and thanks for the luck. Best for you as well. ~ BigShotFancyMan (talk) 10:03, 8 February 2019 (MST)

Questioning balance[edit]

Séance seems a bit overpowered, since someone could use it on a lich or any undead BBEGs.--Benk207 (talk) 15:53, 27 February 2019 (MST)

The paladin subclass oathbreaker gets the option at level 3. ~ BigShotFancyMan (talk) 17:14, 27 February 2019 (MST)
I kind of think Seance seems underpowered for a capstone ability. Maybe extend it to multiple targets? 07:50, 20 March 2019 (MDT)
A number of targets up to your charisma modifier within 30 feet? ~ BigShotFancyMan talk contributions 09:56, 20 March 2019 (MDT)
Maybe double that number? If they're high CR creatures like the OP suggested, they're likely to succeed against it, and a bunch of low CR creatures like run-of-the-mill zombies and skeletons won't pose an overly unbalancing threat, I would think. 19:23, 20 March 2019 (MDT)


The multi classing seams rather bad if you look at official 5e multiclass examples they all get skills and such but you only give light armor as a proficiency that is useless a barbs passive unarmored is better than that and other classes will have at least that if not better. you don't grant any skills or anything useful. this is also a concern i have with other classes on the wiki. --Catmanaz (talk) 20:07, 9 March 2019 (MST)

simply not true. Please see page 164 of the Player’s Handbook. ~ BigShotFancyMan (talk) 10:14, 10 March 2019 (MDT)

Soul Harvest procs[edit]

So, how much does Soul Harvest proc off of kills? Example, you’re level 10 and you get two kills, do you get 20 temp hit points, or just 10? The wording, I find, is a bit vague for me. ~ Randomperson2021 (talk) 10:28PM 1 May 2019

It says if you kill one or more you get hit points equal to your necro level. It doesn't matter if you kill one or 100, you only gain hit points equal to your necro level.
Now, if these hit points would exceed your maximum, then you gain temporary hit point equal to however much is extra.
Example, you have 50 out of 55 hit points. When you kill 8 creatures, at the end of your turn you gain 10 hit points but you can only get 5 because 55 is your max. the remaining 5 hit points are temporary instead. If you were to kill more creatures your next turn, then the amount tmep hit points would replace whatever you have, since temporary hit points are not added. ~ BigShotFancyMan 07:45, 1 May 2019 (MDT)
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