Talk:Dullahan, Variant (5e Race)

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Quality Article Nomination[edit]

Featured article candidate .png This article is a current quality article nominee as of Varkarrus (talk) 15:27, 31 January 2019 (MST). Quality articles exemplify D&D Wiki's very best work, and therefore must meet the quality article criteria. Please discuss the page's merits below.

Okay, barring this being a featured article, it's at least worthy of being a quality article, assuming I put an image up, no?

Featured Article Nomination[edit]

No mark.svg.png — This article did not become a featured article. NPC Geodude Chatmod.png (talk | contribs | email)‎‎ . . 12:13, 5 January 2019 (MST)
Please feel free to re-nominate it once it meets the FA criteria and when all the major issues brought up in this nomination have been dealt with.

I believe this article is worthy of being a featured article. It's got it all: fleshed out and detailed lore, interesting new game mechanics, versatility, balance, fluff, and a nice piece of artwork to round it off. It's been a few weeks since the last major edit, and a full month since the initial concept, too. Maybe it could use a few touchups, and the nomination process really brings out the search for where those can go. Whaddya say, folks? Varkarrus (talk) 22:23, 26 June 2018 (MDT)

I have failed this nomination after two months of no discussion and no consensus formed. — NPC Geodude Chatmod.png (talk | contribs | email)‎‎ . . 12:13, 5 January 2019 (MST)

Oppose Seems pretty shit imo. I don't see how this is a race or a people, maybe a racial class or smth. Like, how they are linked to the Feywild? and how does this plays off or uses any of the actual Dullahan besides the headless horsemen gimmick? You should try giving your "races" more character before submitting for this featured thing or whatever and making such claims in your intro.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions but telling someone their idea is "pretty shit" & "they should try giving etc" is unacceptable. Please check out Help:Behavioral Policy or ask questions if this is a problem. I issued an IP block for this, account creation enabled if you wish to register and contribute politely and constructively. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 06:50, 11 July 2018 (MDT)

Oppose I've been meaning to give this nomination a review for some time now but its overall unconventionality makes it difficult to formulate the issues with this page and so I've been avoiding it. However, while there are a few more general issues here, I'm more concerned about the significant issue of splitting the PC into two entities and then applying a plethora of tedious rule specifications so that that entity can function. I think that if you have to change how the game functions at a basic level for the sake of one player's homebrew, then that homebrew doesn't eloquently work with the standards of the game. Furthermore, if that you need to read five separate rule specifications for each of your PC's races alone then it applies further workload for the DM and as far as fixing some of the issues with this race, I imagine this list of rule specification will only get bigger and more tiresome. As such, due to the tedious and centrally flawed nature of the race, I will be opposing this nomination until it can be reworked. —ConcealedLightChatmod.png (talk) 07:59, 1 August 2018 (MDT)

Okay, I don't want to sound biased but I think your reasoning for opposing the FA nomination sets a worrying and dangerous precedent. Your reason for opposing this article as FA is the exact same reason why I nominated it in the first place. I very strongly feel that homebrew, whether in D&D, or other games, should break convention! Experimenting with game mechanics is fun and can lead to interesting results! So, sure, the Dullahan requires a few errata (and let's face it, there isn't many and they're easy to remember) to make the disembodied head work... but, if you were playing D&D as a Dullahan, with a competent GM who is easily able to keep track of said errata, wouldn't that be a fun experience with a lot of potential for the kinds of shenanigans that make D&D fun? That's for an experienced super-organized GM though, if the rules are too clunky for more mundane GMs (and I really don't think they are), the fact that the experience would be fun and interesting means that it'd be worth the effort to make it work vs abandoning it entirely. Either way, GMs are under no obligation to allow a homebrew concept even if it's a D&Dwiki featured article, and I feel there's going to need to be a community-wide discussion on how conventional a piece of D&D homebrew needs to be in order to be allowed as a featured article. Varkarrus (talk) 07:45, 2 August 2018 (MDT)

Comment Overall I think this is written well and has the right amount of information a feature article needs. It has things I really like too. Fey, it has flavor and isn't just throwing two creature types on there being all bland. Like, I want to support this article simply because it doesn't do what so many articles with two types did. Lifestyle choice is cool. Different, and interesting. But this kind of sums up my feels on most the traits. Just very unsure of them. Blindsight on the body, I think I get it? But if the body and head have a telepathic bond, I don't think you need Blindsight. Which, in regards to the head/body relationship, there's no limit to how far the head can go? Personally not a fan of this but I can see it being in the realm of "Rule of Cool". The head specifically with its temporary hit points and shared pool with the body is interesting. Again, traits that I'm just unsure of. Temp HP is my fav mechanic right now. I'm not sure how it feel about it here, combined with unconventional AC calculation which it too is another bundle of neat sprinkled with, hmmm different. I'd be more inclined to use normal AC calc for the head, force the player to protect thing as much as possible. Be afraid to not be one unit. With all that, I think its great something different has been presented. It follows right along with 5e philosophy and design to add something new to the game, not just rehash and reuse existing material. For me, it is just a little too different. I don't want to impede the articles success just because my hesitation though. Good luck with the nomination. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 13:20, 31 July 2018 (MDT)

Can confirm. There's no limit on how far the head and body can be from each other. Right now, that even extends to other planes. If that's a bit excessive it could be tuned down, but the potential for a dullahan's head to be separated from their body by long distances has lots of potential for stories, and player schemes: sending a dullahan's head to fly down a tunnel to scout ahead without being seen / fly over obstacles that can't be walked over, to deliver messages. Or the dullahan's head could be captured by foes, and the body blindly writes down what the villain is saying... or the reverse; a villain unfamiliar with a dullahan's flying head chained their body but their head is escaping to find help. Even when they aren't separated long distances, the body's blindsight is still useful as even when in a small area, the body can detect foes outside the head's sight or vice-versa. It's true: the Dullahan is an unusual and unique race, but it was because I wanted to explore its head/body mechanic that I created the page, and is the main reason why I feel this page should be a FA. Varkarrus (talk) 16:30, 31 July 2018 (MDT)
All fair points. I think one other would be a DM would have to figure out what even happens if the two can separate that far because as one example is, the head could be stolen! You've still got a few months though. Maybe there's a way to polish things up so that the traits mirror criteria for variant rules of featured articles. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 10:17, 2 August 2018 (MDT)

Support I'm not huge into 5e mechanics, so I won't pretend I am by giving a detailed rundown of what's good or bad about this race. It's imaginative, unconventional and well-written all around. Kinda tired of all the FAs being races lately, but at least this one is different, as CL pointed out.--GamerAim Chatmod.png (talk) 09:11, 2 August 2018 (MDT)

OI! \o/ I pointed it out too! How ya gonna forget your pal BigShot?? grrrr >.< /jk <3 BigShotFancyMan (talk) 10:17, 2 August 2018 (MDT)

Opposed I have looked over this and Varkarrus their previous comments. But I must disagree, a race is not where you break the mold as this is where you break the game easily, subclasses and classes can be very unique races quite simply cannot deviate too much from the norm before becomming overpowered but lets say why this is overpowered. Lets start from the top to bottom. Fey ancestory, sure thats fine and all but be carefull as this is the elf their thing. Now to their second ability, Call steed. First this cantrip is basically useless. The requirements are too much for any usefull use and the mount having to actually travel makes it not very game changing as there are two situations. Either the user is already on the mount, or so far away that this cantrip is not usefull. Outcast however, eh I guess, nothing unique and nothing bad. Now time for the reason why this is op as hell. Blindsight, this wording is just bad, if you dont want it to be actual blindsight just word it that the body can only see 10 feet around it. as the only thing blindsight is is being conciously aware what is around them. Being able to cast spells from both your head and body is just kinda op. I dont how to word this all in such a small text but it just very broken. --RedHawk007 (talk) 07:27, 14 October 2018 (MDT)

I feel like I should mention that the Dullahan race is being tested for balance atm in Cotsu's homebrew testing campaign. I will neither accept nor refute your comments on balance, just wait a bit for the campaign to give feedback on balance. Though, I am fine with rewording the blindsight feature. That said, I should correct your misconception: Call Steed (5e Spell) isn't "basically useless", it's the ability 5e SRD:Find Steed reworked into a cantrip. It does provide benefits beyond just messaging a bonded steed! Varkarrus (talk) 09:53, 14 October 2018 (MDT)
I have checked the wording of the spell, it needs to have been bonded already, if the mount dies it cannot be resummoned and if it is somewhere else it has to physically move troughout the plane instead of being summoned. So yes how it is worded right now, it is borderline unusable. and if it is the find steed worked into the find steed then that is broken and steals the paladin specific spell for anyone to take which is just not fun. Blindsight gives you immunity to all visual illusions and no sneaking up behind them. Racial balance really does not need any playtesting before you can judge the balance of it, if you do need that it shows inexperience (Which is not bad, we all start at some point) some features are very much overpowered to the point it outshines most other races. --RedHawk007 (talk) 10:50, 14 October 2018 (MDT)
Call Steed and Find Steed both allow for mounted combat as a seamless unit, and allowing the user to target both themselves and their mount with a spell: this is a far more important component to the spell than having the mount arrive instantaneously. Depending on where you keep your mount, it may only be a few rounds away. If you aren't in combat, waiting for your mount to arrive before leaving isn't a big deal either. Also: the Musicus meter provides scoring for blindsight, and keep in mind that the Dullahan only has 10 feet of it, too! The Cursed Dullahan may have 30 ft of blindsight, but they literally cannot see out of that range: a pretty fair trade if you ask me. I don't appreciate the "inexperience" remark, I've been at this for a year now. And, when you make a mold-breaking race like the Dullahan, YES it's going to need playtesting for balance. I also want to point out that WotC have released several mold-breaking races. Varkarrus (talk) 11:36, 14 October 2018 (MDT)
A year is an extremely short time, I call myself inexperienced still and have played and dmed for almost 7 years. Find steed is a paladin only spell for a reason and should stay this way as it is as icon to the paladin as find familiar to the wizard (and warlock) Call Steed is a worse version, an unneeded one at that. As like said before, either your mount is right below you or too far away to call. A Cantrip that should not exist. I do not care for the musicus meter, blindsight gives immunity to these things, despite only having 10. Based on the mystic, Tremorsense is a first level spell (something weaker then blind or true sight) and true sight a third level spell, making blind sight a second level spell. (Based on its power compared to these other two) and that is for 1 minute. having this permanent is incredibly op, no matter how small Not seeing out that range really does not matter, as either a character plays around that or they dont play this race. And sure, give me one example that actually worked without having the dm have to house rule things --RedHawk007 (talk) 12:57, 14 October 2018 (MDT)
I'd just like to reinforce that you should not call other users inexperienced unless they themselves have identified as inexperienced. Doing so can come off as belittling. As for your comment that racial balance does not require playtesting, I think that the developers of D&D 5e themselves would disagree, considering that the game was in development for years. You also say that blind sight is (or should be) a 2nd level spell. So is darkvision, which races have for free. Yes, darkvision lasts much longer, and 1:1 having blind sight as a race might be less "balanced" even at only 10 feet, but there is still some room for a race to have it. At the end of the day, homebrew is not for every table; even first-party content is not for every table, but homebrew has more freedom to try new things. If the DM doesn't want to plan around having a dullahan, he won't allow one in his game. I know we are to refrain from the "only a good DM" fallacy, but the truth is a DM should not allow all content — homebrew or from first-party supplements — without reviewing it first. This article has no IRR templates on it, so I don't see why its balance is being questioned solely in regards to its potential as a featured article.--GamerAim Chatmod.png (talk) 16:11, 17 October 2018 (MDT)
Just my thoughts. Call stead is a good spell as it prevents you from losing your stead because you had to leave it behind or because some random stole it, although someone could add that you know where the steed is when you cast the cantrip in case it can't get to you. Minor question, with call steed can you say anything else telepathically or only to come. As for blindsight; the fact it lets you ignore illusions and invisibility is a problem for the true dullahan, it is fine with the cursed dullahan because it is blind and possibly deaf (which should be specified) so you can have interesting shenanigans where it can see through the illusion but it does not know that the others are seeing an illusion. With the true dullahan the blindsight on the head is excessive and with the body maybe make it so it still has the blind condition or something? But otherwise I think the class is good, I am looking forward to using this race. Babosa (talk) 19:50, 29 October 2018 (MDT)
I feel it's, again, important to point out that the Blindsight on the True Dullahan extends to just 10 feet. By the time the Dullahan is within 10 feet of an illusion, its likely already too late. Still, I can add that it can't see through illusions; only invisibility and darkness, if you feel like that'd help? Varkarrus (talk) 19:58, 29 October 2018 (MDT)
Even with 10 feet that can tell you if a person you are talking to and want to ambush/kidnap is really there or if they're an illusion, or if one section of a wall is actually not there and a group of minions are about to ambush you, on top it deals with invisibllity. If a DM didn't really use illusions, blindsight wouldn't be a big problem, but if they did it would make some fun things you can do with illusions pointless so saying or just suggesting that illusions affect blindsight would make it perfectly fine. Babosa (talk) 23:02, 29 October 2018 (MDT)

Musicus Rating[edit]

Musicus Meter
Score: 6
This race scored 6 with the Musicus Meter race guidelines (score between 4 and 6 to an absolute maximum of 8). This metric may represent this page, or not. This is a guideline, not a rule, and it's important to use your own judgment alongside this scoring.
This scoring may be the groundwork for a focused {{needsbalance}} usage. A contributor to this page may request a detailed breakdown of this page's balance. Without this information, {{needsbalance}} may then be removed. This meter cannot be used to enforce needsbalance templates.
This template should only be placed on a race's talk page. If this template is not placed on the talk page, please move it.


Cost Racial Trait
1 Constitution score increases by 1.
0.5 Fey Ancestry
0.5 Cantrip
0.5 Skill Proficiency
2.5 Total.

True Dullahan[edit]

Cost Racial Trait
2.5 Base
1 Constitution score increases by 1.
0.5 Darkvision
1(?) Flying Head
1 Blindsight /10ft
6 Total.

Cursed Dullahan[edit]

Cost Racial Trait
2.5 Base
1 Strength score increases by 1.
0.5 No Food/Water/Air
1 Limited Blindsight
0.5 Portable Head
0.5 Proficiency
6 Total.

3 Star Vote[edit]

Since the voting is anonymous I'd personally like to provide transparency when I vote and I am guilty of not giving it 5 stars. I explained my thoughts above but if there are more questions why I voted this way, I don't mind sharing. ~ BigShotFancyMan 08:16, 22 April 2019 (MDT)

I'm curious as to why, given that the usual logic is "one star is awful, two is below average, three is average or acceptable, four is above average, five is exceptional." I suppose it depends on what your metric is, as well. --Max7238 (talk) 15:05, 22 April 2019 (MDT)
Reasons are above in the Featured Article Nomination discussion. I don't really argue with Redhawk's points either. ~ BigShotFancyMan 21:09, 22 April 2019 (MDT)
Having read the above, I certainly would. The fact that some other articles that are lower quality are featured, yet this one is not, baffles me to no end. I will, again, say that it really just depends on what your metric is. Which, I suppose, is another way of saying "this is a matter of preference, and yours clearly isn't the same as mine." --Max7238 (talk) 22:02, 22 April 2019 (MDT)
Well maybe you can explain why this is better than I give credit or better than nameless featured articles. ~ BigShotFancyMan 07:17, 23 April 2019 (MDT)
Gladly. For starters, Call Steed isn't a useless cantrip. Before the update to this race today, it was the only way for the head to reliably find its body again - using the telepathic link with the mount and keeping the body mounted, taking advantage of a saddle, class, or feat that gives advantage to staying mounted. Having the head and body in separate places made for great RP moments when I've used this character in three different one-shots because she fit the setting. The head acting as a scout, or going WITH the scout, and the body relaying simple concepts via hand signs (advance, retreat, danger, be quiet, hold position) made for great tactics. If an enemy has 15ft or more of movement, the blindsight does not save the body or head, because the enemy would still slip in and attack off-turn, therefore retaining surprise. Blindsight does not see through illusions, which are magical tricks to the brain; that's what TRUEsight is for. All the blindsight did for the character, in any occasion, was allow the body to fight while the head was elsewhere. The use of a glaive for reach allowed the character to fight to the limits of its vision, but move accurately thanks to the mount's vision. Cavalier Fighter, arguably the second-most optimized version of this race, still did not place her above other party members with vanilla races, nor did it make her feel like "the main character" of any one-shot. The myriad of mechanics involved in this race, and playing it correctly, make it an absolute joy to play. My table has not only NOT found issue with it, even as a Cavalier, but pointed out that an Eldritch Knight that can cast spells and use a bonus action to melee attack would be even more powerful. In fact, one of my DMs even buffed her so she would be effective, saying that the mount should gain HP with her, and that the two could take hits for one another - effectively acting almost as a druid's Wild Shape temporary hit points. At the end of all calculation, this meant she had 244 HP (max CON and Tough at Lv20) + 183 for the horse (31+8x19) for 427HP. My Totem Barbarian has an effective HP of 325x2= 650HP (24CON, Tough, Totem damage resist plus a ring to resist psychic damage). Their damage per turn is about the same (four glaive swings or two maul swings with rage bonus), both can tank by imposing disadvantage or granting enemies advantage to goad hits. I've played the race several times, run the math several times, and both in theory and practice, everything has meshed together exactly as it seems it was intended. --Max7238 (talk) 13:29, 23 April 2019 (MDT)
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