User talk:Green Dragon/Archive 34

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Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Its contents should be preserved in their current form. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 34 |

Disengaging from the Discord Discussion[edit]

I don't mean to draw attention to myself with this, rather make aware my intent going forward and help explain in future silence on the topic. The whole thing has become something beyond I could have imagined and daunting to even engage in. Surely I don't mind being asked my opinion for it on my talk page, but I am going to try and avoid the current discussion(s). I hope you can understand and wish you luck with the task. ~ BigShotFancyMan (talk) 20:56, 21 November 2018 (MST)

Sounds like a good idea to me. I hope that the discussion's results turn out to be beneficial for you. --Green Dragon (talk) 23:08, 22 November 2018 (MST)

What's your problem with me?[edit]

You said you had problems with me. Well, I can see the way the wind is blowing and I predict my time left here is short. So, if you want to tell me what your problem with me is, please do.--GamerAim Chatmod.png (talk) 05:38, 9 December 2018 (MST)

Really, where? I don't appreciate how you tell users what they have done and what they have not done. --Green Dragon (talk) 08:04, 9 December 2018 (MST)
I hope you appreciate the part where you said you "could write more about [my behavior."] If you have a problem with my behavior, please write more about it :) --GamerAim Chatmod.png (talk) 08:15, 9 December 2018 (MST)
I will not do such a thing here. These is a place and time for everything, and I choose my actions like I will. Telling other users what to do, or blocking their access through backend sabotaging, is a dictatorship system which we do not have on D&D Wiki. Check Wikipedia for references about what editors are required to do. --Green Dragon (talk) 08:23, 9 December 2018 (MST)
I never told you what to do, though? I just invited you to share your feelings if you wanted to. Would you please reread my comments before accusing me of things? Otherwise, I understand if you don't think this is an appropriate place to vent. But I probably won't be checking my D&D Wiki email much anymore, so your window of opportunity to call me out is limited. I'm only trying to help...--GamerAim Chatmod.png (talk) 08:49, 9 December 2018 (MST)
"If you have a problem with my behavior, please write more about it" is directly telling me what to do, even though you use the word "please".
"[S]o your window of opportunity to call me out is limited"– what is this is even supposed to mean? --Green Dragon (talk) 09:04, 9 December 2018 (MST)
You're misquoting me, GD. I said, "if you want to tell me" you were free to. I didn't say, if you have a problem, tell me what it is. I said that I was open to hearing your complaints, if you wanted to share them.
And it means that, if you don't want to talk about it on your talk page, and I'm not gonna be checking my email so much, I don't know how you're going to get in touch with me if/when you want to address your grievances. And to be frank, I'm getting a very strong vibe that I'm not wanted here, by you or anyone else. But hey, I wouldn't want to accuse you of feeling something you don't, so please don't take that as conjecture or accusation or demand. I'm just doubting my longevity in a community that — in my opinion — has it out for me. That's what it means. I just don't want to leave anything unsaid, in the event I am forced — either psychologically or through a block — to leave D&D Wiki. You asked me what I meant, and now I've answered.--GamerAim Chatmod.png (talk) 09:17, 9 December 2018 (MST)
I literally just quoted your exact words from your comment above mine. I answered your initial questions as well, saying that no, I do not want to answer them.
I understand what you are saying. I don't mind any user, but following consensus, policies, and working in this community are very important for me. I just don't understand how you can be defending sabotage (or maybe the creation of a dictatorship is a better analogy) that did not have any of our underlying values in it. I understand that there are historical examples of sabotage, but they all have their ideas behind them and what has been happening here is using the system to "hack it" into a dictatorship in a sense, and make our users lose the trust in our existing system. --Green Dragon (talk) 09:29, 9 December 2018 (MST)
I don't feel as much hostility in your above comment, so I'm glad for that. Maybe we can start to rebuild our relationship? I know I did say those words, but they were rephrasing my initial statement. It looks like you just misunderstood a bit, so we're all good. No hard feelings from me. It also looks like you're upset about SgtLion's RfA and my comments there? If you want to talk about that, we can, but I need you to be clear about that because this had nothing to do with what SgtLion did, for me.--GamerAim Chatmod.png (talk) 09:45, 9 December 2018 (MST)

In that interest, let's start from there? I said on the RfA that I didn't necessarily condone SgtLion's underhandedness, but I do understand his motivations. SgtLion felt that there was a problem among D&D Wiki users and he didn't think that you were willing to deal with it the normal way. You say that D&D Wiki isn't a dictatorship and that it's not up to you, but you're the bureaucrat and SgtLion felt that you were absolving users of wrongdoing. In his mind, his only recourse was to do what he did.

Blame SgtLion if you have to. Demote him, block him, whatever you think you have to do. And rationalize your actions (because you are the only one who can demote him) however you think appropriate. But please ask yourself why a trusted, long-time admin would do this. Ask why the conflict-adverse SgtLion would risk his standing. What would bring him to that point after all these years? Did SgtLion change, or did the community? Because for SgtLion, the community got worse and you overlooked it. And please, try not to take that personally. He respects you. But you're not infallible, nor did you interact with these users for months in Discord. All you saw were — in his opinion — the lies the told you here. Their performance of being law-abiding users, while being underhanded in their own right.

That idea that other admins were underhanded and the behavior condoned was why I supported SgtLion's RfA. I'm sorry if that, or he, offended you. I guess he violated your trust? But please, like I asked, try to understand why he'd risk upsetting you.--GamerAim Chatmod.png (talk) 09:45, 9 December 2018 (MST)

probably the best thing you’ve said since you RfA’d CL. Well said. ~ BigShotFancyMan (talk) 10:19, 9 December 2018 (MST)
I have no idea what "interest" you are talking about. You asked me "What's your problem with me?" and I am letting you know my opinion. I'm not taking anything personally, but my "problem with you" is that you are supporting this ideology. I understand what you are saying, that you find this to be much more complicated than from what I can infer from users on D&D Wiki. I'm not arguing with you about your experience from discord, involvements, opinions, or other matters about this. I'm trying my best to answer your question. --Green Dragon (talk) 10:50, 9 December 2018 (MST)

Would also like to request an interaction ban from GA[edit]

Hey, I didn't realize doing so was an option but could I also block GA as well? Varkarrus (talk) 09:10, 9 December 2018 (MST)

Hey, while we're at it, can I get an interaction ban from Varkarrus, ConcealedWife, ConcealedLight, BigShotFancyMan, Quincy and Geodude671? Rest assured that anyone who wants a ban from me, I want a ban from them too. I wouldn't think it'd be necessary to get an interaction ban from anyone, much less six people, but here we are \o/--GamerAim Chatmod.png (talk) 09:17, 9 December 2018 (MST)

Interaction bans are a thing that exists? Quincy (talk) 09:26, 9 December 2018 (MST)

It's mostly an informal thing and can't really be enforced. — Geodude Chatmod.png (talk | contribs | email)‎‎ . . 09:29, 9 December 2018 (MST)
I may have mislead Discord chat when I said request interaction bans on an admin page. While I don’t think there was a consensus, the discussion more or less led to if you don’t want to interact with others then don’t. If a user repeatedly contacts you when you prefer they don’t, then you can discuss with Admins about a harassment policy being broken. I do apologize for any confusion I may have created. This other route while less formal I think was a good suggestion by SgtLion, like almost everything they contributed to us. ~ BigShotFancyMan (talk) 09:42, 9 December 2018 (MST)
Do people still want interaction blocks? Sorry, I forgot to answer these concerns for a long time. Please let me know what you are considering. --Green Dragon (talk) 09:07, 22 January 2019 (MST)

Continuation from SgtLion's RfA[edit]

I understand that Geodude671 closing the RfA was "just a formality" but its another thing that goes along with what GA/SL reference. On its own, no big deal yet these little things build. As you are one asking for examples of issues, this is one to point out. GA, SL, or I haven't logged every little thing that didn't seem right. It wouldn't be fun, it'd hurt relationships with users, be stressful just doing it, and come across as tattling(?). The little things are less and less I think, but then you get something like the RfA closing. Perhaps old fuddie duddies need to embrace the change. ~ BigShotFancyMan (talk) 07:01, 11 December 2018 (MST)

SgtLion himself ended Template:News, which described the result of the RfA. I really don't understand how this is even an issue in your opinion, nor can I condone that it is something as harmful as blocking select users from D&D Wiki through the backend while keeping this work undercover. If you find serious violations of procedure, you may let me know on my talk page. Would this work? I want to keep updated with any problems you find, but this was not one. Changing the user rights is doing the act, not editing a page (or Template:News). --Green Dragon (talk) 06:19, 13 December 2018 (MST)
I am not trying, nor did I, to compare anyone ending an RfA prematurely versus abusing backend privileges. If you support minimalizing things people do that go against standard practice or what has been practice because others have done worse I can keep that in mind. Though, I don't think that is what you are saying, just like I didn't say Geo ending an RfA is as harmful as SL's actions.
At this point, I don't think there is a point in trying to explain why someone so kind and helpful would go to such lengths or why someone so active would change so drastically over a couple months (literal night & day in just weeks). I had something else typed to try and explain but then realized I would be talking till I was blue in the face like SgtLion mentioned they did. I/users can't keep you updated if you aren't willing to listen, understand, and address their issues equally. I assume that sounds quite rude, but I don't know another way to explain how I did feel, GA & SL fielded. ~ BigShotFancyMan (talk) 07:08, 13 December 2018 (MST)
I must have misunderstood your point, since I thought you were trying to compare things. No, SgtLion changed Template:News and RfA and resigned, so like I already said, this is a moot point. I'm willing to listen, I just may not have understood you right (or you did not understand me right). My talk page is a good place for any problems you may want to discuss with me. --Green Dragon (talk) 09:14, 13 December 2018 (MST)
Fair enough Green Dragon. I appreciate your time and thank you for it. Cheers! ~ BigShotFancyMan (talk) 10:18, 13 December 2018 (MST)


So, I was rereading the entire help portal to reacquaint myself with the policies and philosophy of this community, and I noticed something: in almost every instance of a reference of an unspecified hypothetical person, they are referenced via a male pronoun. In the last 5 years the hobby community has had a massive influx of younger players- and the majority of them are female or of unique gender/orientation. I would like to see a standard that expects or recommends anonymous pronouns be non-gender specific, using singular they or him/her format. I would also like to go through the help pages and change the pronouns to suit. Do you agree with adopting this phraseology into the community standards? --Kydo (talk) 23:48, 14 December 2018 (MST)

I must object to the proposed changes. The reason male pronouns are the standard is not because of the D&D community, but because commerical works have used "he" as a the gender neutral pronoun for the past century. No offense, but to change an enduring standard of the hobby in some bizzare attempt at being inclusive of a 5-year fad seems silly to me and like something that would only cause a headache to our readership. In any case, "him" is less awkward in any case than "him/her" or "they". Quincy (talk) 05:35, 15 December 2018 (MST)
In what way is being more inclusive "bizarre"? And furthermore, what is awkward about singular they? I've used singular they in common speech since I was a child, long before this whole inclusivity thing began. The absence of a genderless pronoun in english is, frankly, a vestigial property of its roots in a primitive and inefficient language that assigned gender to inanimate objects and abstractions. I see no reason to remain loyal to a defective tradition. --Kydo (talk) 11:40, 15 December 2018 (MST)
It has always been acceptable to use "they" as a singular, third-person, gender-neutral pronoun; it's usually used to refer to a hypothetical person that could be either gender. — Geodude Chatmod.png (talk | contribs | email)‎‎ . . 11:53, 15 December 2018 (MST)
I thought that using "user" was the norm that we should use. Can we not use "user" for these instances? --Green Dragon (talk) 12:03, 15 December 2018 (MST)
I could've worded my statement better. I'm not saying that inclusivity is "bizarre", I am saying the proposed gesture is, as I fail to see what goal it accomplishes beyond the most superficial, nor do I see how it practically helps the community. While "they" is technically acceptable it is still horrible and clunky. And in my mind it is better to adhere to the tradition of the English language than to force a grammatically weird new one. Quincy (talk) 12:06, 15 December 2018 (MST)
There’s far too much support for inclusivity regardless of other ideas Quincy. Green Dragon makes a good suggestion; I’d back away from this one given your position and verbiage thus far. ~ BigShotFancyMan (talk) 12:23, 15 December 2018 (MST)
That's fair enough. I'm not going to press the issue. Quincy (talk) 12:37, 15 December 2018 (MST)
To use "user" often requires additional phrasing to make it work in a sentence. Instead of just saying "they" or "them" in reference to an already mentioned user, you wind up repeatedly saying "the user" multiple times in a single sentence. If that is preferred though, I can roll with it. --Kydo (talk) 12:40, 15 December 2018 (MST)
Also, the particular situation that bothers me is that the wiki consistently refers to all DMs as being male. Calling all DMs users may be gender neutral, but also a little odd. --Kydo (talk) 12:58, 15 December 2018 (MST)
Another method might be to imitate the 5e corebook standard of just choosing a random gender per sentence in which a pronoun is needed. --Kydo (talk) 13:12, 15 December 2018 (MST)
I agree with Quincy, the male pronoun has been ¨neutered¨ by the fact that it has for so long been used for anyone. It has, in effect, become gender neutral. And, you would have to change thousands of pronouns if a switch is made.Rorix the White (talk) 18:25, 15 December 2018 (MST)
You have to remember cultivation theory: that small "superficial" things can add up to changes of view over time. Using male pronouns as a stand-in for unknown gender reinforces the concept of male-as-default, while also subtly reinforcing the stereotypes of D&D being male-dominated, both of which comes with a host of problems. Ultimately, yes, its not that a big deal, I will admit. But, it's also just not a hard thing to implement and if it makes potential users more comfortable that's great. Also: nonbinary genders are not a "recent, 5-year fad" they've been a thing for a long time. A change in culture is allowing them to be more open about who they are, but of course, the assumption that they're a fad doesn't help. I support a policy where the default terminology is to use singular they and "user" interchangeably. And now that I'm aware of that problem with the help portal, maybe I should take the time to fix it. It's no skin off anyone's back if I do so, yeah? I don't see any valid reason why someone would find a problem with me fixing that. Varkarrus (talk) 19:08, 15 December 2018 (MST)
Here's a radical idea: how about we leave well enough alone? This fuss over pronouns is just plain silly: using masculine reference by default is a long-standing tradition that harms no one. As the old saying goes, if it ain't broke, why fix it? You go ahead and use whatever pronoun suits your fancy, and let everyone else do the same: as for the official material, it's good enough as is. This progressive nonsense of meddling with established norms and being being offended over nothing is a waste of everyone's time. --Sir Dinadan (talk) 19:54, 15 December 2018 (MST)
<3 I only meant that the influx of non-gender-binaries to our hobby has been happening more in the last 5 years, not that their existence has. I am sad to say the worst offenders are pages that I am the primary contributor for. I run a table for all-new players now, and the crowd at my FLGS has changed a lot. It's made me much more aware of the problems they face, and let me tell you: pronouns are NOT superficial to many of these people. Simply acknowledging their valid existence is enough to make them feel valued and respected. It is worthwhile. Thank you for making the effort. --Kydo (talk) 20:11, 15 December 2018 (MST)
Kydo, I saw you unjustly remove Sir Dinadan's comment. I intended to wash my hands of this argument but nevertheless I must tell you not to do anything like that again or I shall treat it as vandalism and act appropriately. Quincy (talk) 20:17, 15 December 2018 (MST)

←Reverted indentation to one colon

For the time being, I insist that as a community we not take any action with regards to the language of the help portal until a consensus a reached. Quincy (talk) 20:23, 15 December 2018 (MST)
Why though? The discussion is in adding a policy to enforce this. If there is no policy for or against the use of gender neutral pronouns, then there should be no reason why the changes can't remain. If a consensus policy AGAINST the use of gender neutral pronouns forms, only then should it be actively undone, but I don't see such a policy being formed. Varkarrus (talk) 20:54, 15 December 2018 (MST)
That was a clerical error. I apologize. I took several hours a long time to write that, and it seems someone else edited the page before I hit submit. It has happened to me before. Sorry, SirDinadain. --Kydo (talk) 22:15, 15 December 2018 (MST)
Can you make the changes to all the pages which you can, and then undo your edits, so that we can see the changes and have the chance to change the page when it is a better word structure, and see what we have left after this? --Green Dragon (talk) 05:12, 16 December 2018 (MST)

Making this a formal discussion? (Varkarrus (talk) 22:04, 15 December 2018 (MST))[edit]

Since the topic of a non-gendered pronoun usage policy is turning into a discussion, we should probably have it somewhere other than a user's talk page. Any idea where? I'm thinking we will need to have separate discussions for:

  • In the proposed policy, will "he or she" and its variants be permitted as an alternative to using "they?"
    • If so, would the policy put both on equal footing? Or simply state something along the lines of "he or she is an alternative, but usage of singular they is preferred"
  • Would it be a strictly enforced policy? or simply considered a guideline? or just not passed at all?

Personally I support this being a policy. Plus, I find usage of "he or she" and its variants clunky, and ultimately not wholly inclusive as they do not include people who do not use either pronoun. Ultimately, I'd be fine with it simply being a guideline, as that would then at least not prevent anyone from editing pages to follow said guideline.

Well, yeah, I guess we could move the discussion elsewhere. We've organized whole projects from GD's talk page in the past though, so I think that's a little officious. --Kydo (talk) 22:15, 15 December 2018 (MST)
Sorry. Officiousness really isn't my intention. Officialness is I guess? Plus, organization / keeping things not headache-inducing; Green Dragon's talk page gets really bloated really quickly and I think having a whole separate discussion page per policy proposal is in general just... easier to deal with. If it helps to clarify: I'm with you 100% on implementing this policy (or as close to it as consensus will allow) and I felt doing this might get the topic to be taken nice and seriously and spark a discussion that leads to a conclusion rather than fizzle out and potentially be forgotten. Slowly but surely, I'm getting used to the diplomacy culture of this wiki. Varkarrus (talk) 22:26, 15 December 2018 (MST)
Alright. Uh. Well, I guess it would either be it's own policy, in which case it should start as a user subpage, or we could make it part of Help:Standards and Formatting. There should also be an addendum to the behavior policy that sexist and homophobic rhetoric is not acceptable behavior, if it isn't in there already.
You know, there used to be a time when I would just do this stuff without asking and nobody cared. Like when I wrote Help:Spirit and Intent from scratch. It will take me some getting used to this new attitude people have. It's nice to see actual debate between people who care, even if people disagree with me. --Kydo (talk) 23:14, 15 December 2018 (MST)
Just a couple things:
  1. In Vark's defense, I think people have become accustomed to discussing things on appropriate talk pages in the last year vs the owner's talk page each time. The verbiage "please use the appropriate talk page etc etc etc" by many users could have been trademarked :p
  2. Kydo is 100% accurate that adapting our speech patterns for singular pronouns does more than anyone knows for people that don't identify with he or she pronouns. Yes, Quincy and Rorix are right that this is simply how the English language is written and means no offense, but people are offended and that matters. If using "they" instead of arguing makes people feel worth something and their lives matter then I'll do it. (Actually started some time ago for what it is worth).
  3. In that regard, I don't see issue if someone wishes to update the wiki's Help pages or "official" articles. Going through and drafting policy or expecting others to do this-please don't. I see it as an over reach and forcing others to do something. Let them decide when they would like to include everyone; it is their loss if they don't.
  4. I support Quincy's reverts until a consensus is made. I understand the "Be Bold" ideology but being bold seems more a hinderance on this wiki and discussion and patience work decently.
I am sure I forgetting some thoughts but trying to keep it "short" for everyone. ~ BigShotFancyMan (talk) 23:09, 15 December 2018 (MST)
I don't see being bold as being a problem as long as discussion is had if that bold edit is reverted (which is what's happening now, which is good). I also support Quincy's reversion until a consensus is formed, and I additionally support preferring "they" over "he or she" for pages where there is not clear precedent for using other wording (the specific case I'm thinking of is 3.5e classes, which from what I can tell use gendered pronouns chosen basically arbitrarily). — Geodude Chatmod.png (talk | contribs | email)‎‎ . . 00:23, 16 December 2018 (MST)
I find the usage of "he or she" really clunky, and not worth removing the gender to get this type of clunky sentence grammar. We are not writing a law book, so we have the liberty to make a few cosmetic changes to make our sentences and paragraphs flow nicely.
Reaching consensus on how we want our cosmetic changes to sentences and paragraphs to be directed like, does not really have a specific discussion, so I don't mind trying to answer the initial questions brought up to me on my talk page. Each specific implementation, when it is not crystal clear, should be brought up on the page's talk pages'.
When our policies, organizations, etc reach into the user's spheres then plural sentences grammatically are much smoother. This is because when using the "high horse" of say policies, and then suddenly making the reader try to understand that it is specifically signaling the user (the "him" or "her" in the sentence) out that they are reading about is a major shift to any sentence. Here is an example, discuss if you don't agree.
"When the user moves a page into his userspace before deletion, he should not move it back into the main namespace."
"When a user moves a page into their userspace before deletion, they should not move it back into the main namespace." --Green Dragon (talk) 04:59, 16 December 2018 (MST)

Help Portal Pronoun Modifications (Varkarrus (talk) 21:44, 15 December 2018 (MST))[edit]

Hey, so I took every page on the help portal, and searched for every use of a gendered pronoun that could be replaced by a non-gendered pronoun. I was beginning by implementing changes to the unlocked pages directly, but Quincy undid the changes and ruled they should not remain until a consensus is formed. After that, I instead made copies of all offending pages, with the changes made, and saved them to my User page.

I made a directory of all these duplicate pages here: User:Varkarrus/Help Portal Pronoun Logging

There are a few issues I'd like to bring up for discussion:

1) There is no harm that can be done in implementing these changes: there was plenty of use of non-gendered pronouns on these pages already. There's no reason for someone to take issues with my changes unless they take issue with the non-gendered pronoun usage that was already present on said page.

2) The ongoing discussion in the space above is over the implementation of a policy and/or guideline (personally I think it simply being a guideline is sufficient, though a policy would be better) to use non-gendered pronouns when appropriate. This discussion is technically unrelated to the changes I made. If the policy passes, the changes would be enforced. If the policy does not pass, the changes would not necessarily be prohibited. Either way, the changes should be allowed.

3) There is one final issue, one that I can't immediately resolve. Entirely by mistake, it seems the modified versions of the help portal pages show up on the help portal widget, despite them being saved in my user space. This was entirely accidental, and I assume the method of fixing this would require modification to the help portal widget itself to exclude pages from user spaces. My bad, though!

No, just remove the help portal template and category from the copies you saved. The help portal uses categories to populate itself. --Kydo (talk) 22:51, 15 December 2018 (MST)
Thanks! I fixed it. Varkarrus (talk) 22:58, 15 December 2018 (MST)
I see that! Faster than I could too. You guys are much faster than me. --Kydo (talk) 23:05, 15 December 2018 (MST)
I am looking through your changes. Some of them are actually wrong. On Help:Spirit and Intent, you removed the usage of "he" but kept the "she" in the same paragraph making it very awkward. The first change is actually grammatically better. If we can choose a gender, I think we should just either choose "he" or "she". If making the sentence plural works better, then I recommend that we do this. I'll keep trying to find examples of how to explain what I am talking about. --Green Dragon (talk) 04:25, 16 December 2018 (MST)
That particular case was unintentional, actually; I aimed to remove both cases.Varkarrus (talk) 11:57, 16 December 2018 (MST)

What Do You Think About My Monster[edit]

Hi... I don't really understand much of how this website works but I've made a monster, and I can pick you that you're a significantly important guy on this website, so I was wondering if you take requests for looking at homebrew items and giving feedback on them?

Dungeon Master 5E

I understand if you don't feel like critiquing homebrew items.

Cosmos (talk) 14:44, 20 December 2018 (MST)

Looking at it, it's worthy for {{April Fools}} and {{Design Disclaimer}}. --Green Dragon (talk) 22:48, 20 December 2018 (MST)
Okay, thank you! Didn't even know those existed. :) Cosmos (talk) 05:16, 21 December 2018 (MST)

We Have a Legal Problem[edit]

So, for poop and giggles I decided to make myself a D&D Beyond account and browse their homebrew catalogue. I immediately noticed two things.

1. Many things originally published to D&D Beyond are being replicated (very poorly) on D&D Wiki. (The Abandoned (5e Background) is an example of this.)

2. Many things originally published on D&D Wiki are being by-the-letter duplicated on D&D Beyond. (This has happened to Adventurer (5e Background).)

Fearless leader, what should we do? What can we do? --Kydo (talk) 08:15, 28 December 2018 (MST)

EDIT: There's 40 pages of backgrounds alone on D&D Beyond. This isn't counting every other type of homebrew they make available. No human being has the time it would take to curate both libraries of homebrew material to prevent copyright violations of this nature on this scale. This affects both of us. They could potentially sue us for trying to lay copyright to things they originally published. And vice-versa. --Kydo (talk) 08:23, 28 December 2018 (MST)

EDIT 2: They have 105 pages of homebrew character classes. --Kydo (talk) 08:26, 28 December 2018 (MST)

Kydo asked me to pitch in, so thanks for keeping me in the loop, despite my...vacation <3
That said, I'm not real sure what to do here, same as you. Does D&D Wiki have the right to sue other websites for hosting our content illegally? Does "D&D Wiki" as a website claim any copyright to the pages it hosts? As I recall, our GNUFDL attributions are tracked on history pages, so does any person not attributed therein hold copyright to the article? Those are questions I'm sure GD can answer. In the past, he's implied that the website does hold some copyright to the articles we host, in contexts like this. Do we have any idea if the people re-posting the content over there are the (sole) contributor of the content over here? I find it more likely that it's individuals posting it there illegally, but maybe people just like to cross-post?
Finally, if we are hosting content here illegally, there's not much we can do on that front but operate in accordance with the Digital Millennium Copyright Act like every other website does, by taking down content as notified. This seems to work for YouTube, reddit, tumblr, etc. We do have a disclaimer — I can see it right now — that says "You are also promising us that you wrote this yourself, or copied it from a public domain or similar free resource. Do not submit copyrighted work without permission!" The GNUFDL presumably does not/can not go into effect on work you lack the right to license. Do we have a terms of use? If not, maybe we should throw up a boilerplate, "you indemnify us to any copyright infringement committed by you."
I'll try to remember to keep my eye on this page, but it doesn't hurt to ping me on Discord (via PM or my own server, which may or may not still be listed on D&D Wiki) if anyone needs a reply ASAP <3--GamerAim Chatmod.png (talk) 17:02, 28 December 2018 (MST)
Is there an update on this, GD?--GamerAim Chatmod.png (talk) 05:39, 2 January 2019 (MST)
They are reviewing the situation and will get back to me. --Green Dragon (talk) 08:48, 2 January 2019 (MST)p
Right on 8) Thanks for keeping us updated.--GamerAim Chatmod.png (talk) 12:02, 2 January 2019 (MST)
Hi GD, any update on this? — Geodude Chatmod.png (talk | contribs | email)‎‎ . . 23:12, 14 May 2019 (MDT)

Help With Tag/Category[edit]

Hello there Green Dragon! I just wanted to pop in for a quick question. I realized that my monster, Dungeon Master, should be an NPC, not a normal monster. But I can't figure out how to move it to there to put in a tag for NPC. Is there a way to do this? Thank you! --Cosmos (talk) 14:09, 3 January 2019 (MST)

Hi there Cosmos! I’m not Green Dragon but the solution is add the Category:NPC to the page. It’s prefferred to add it at the bottom of the page with the other categories, at least it’s mine lol ~ BigShotFancyMan (talk) 16:13, 3 January 2019 (MST)

Alright, sounds good. I will do it with the other categories too because of organizational XD. No problem about not being GD lol I just didn't feel like posting this on each admin's Talk page so I went to the guy who is the lord of the Wiki :3 --Cosmos (talk) 14:21, 4 January 2019 (MST)
There is always User talk:Admin too. ~ BigShotFancyMan (talk) 22:12, 4 January 2019 (MST)
Oooh... okay thanks I didn't know something like that existed. I will remember that the next time I have a question :) --Cosmos (talk) 15:40, 6 January 2019 (MST)
I know I'm kinda interjecting here, but I'm known to be knowledgeable sometimes and you can seek help on Discord if you'd prefer real-time chat with an admin; I'm usually on a couple times a day and you can find other users there as well :) --GamerAim Chatmod.png (talk) 16:02, 7 January 2019 (MST)
You may have better luck on the official discord server, though. Varkarrus (talk) 18:44, 7 January 2019 (MST)
Seeing that you have asked for my assistance before, this is quite fine. I am a formatting helper, per Help:Helpers Page, and I prefer that you ask for my help on my talk page. If you have any more questions you may keep doing what you have done. --Green Dragon (talk) 22:22, 7 January 2019 (MST)
So... I don't have Discord T-T so yep. And GD, sounds good :) thanks. --Cosmos (talk) 19:54, 8 January 2019 (MST)
Don't worry dude, there is nothing at all wrong with not having a Discord. Heck, I'm an administrator and I personally don't bother with that nonsense. Quincy (talk) 21:30, 8 January 2019 (MST)

Race balance review![edit]

Hey man,

So I recently finished a custom homebrew race for 5e on the wiki, a hivemind race with an adaptive body. I would really appreciate if you could take a look at it, just for balancing and proofreading, take as long as you need because i know that you guys must be overloaded with requests like this. Thanks :)

Sure, done. --Green Dragon (talk) 08:53, 9 January 2019 (MST)
hey so I updated it a bit to hopefully make it more interesting and balanced, could you take a look at it?

Another Editing Question[edit]

Hey... I'm back already XD sorry. I just wanted to know how you make one of those tables like for spell lists or damage threshold. I want to know for a variant point buy system for the Pokémon sourcebook I have been working on. I can't find anything in the Help Portal or Meta Page, and I can't make heads or tails of what does what in the pages I've explored to find the coding for the table. Thanks! --Cosmos (talk) 17:14, 12 January 2019 (MST)

Here's the official tables help page for Mediawiki. We also have our own help page for tables. If those aren't of help, could you provide a reference for what tables you're talking about and what kind of content you want to put in one?--GamerAim Chatmod.png (talk) 05:31, 13 January 2019 (MST)
Okay thanks! I can sort of figure out the stuff now :) Think I should be good. --Cosmos (talk) 15:20, 13 January 2019 (MST)

Replace Text extension[edit]

Hey, GD. How would you feel about installing/asking BD to install the Replace Text and/or Mass Edit Regex MediaWiki extensions? As the name suggests, it allows admins to perform automated text replacement without the assistance of a bot, which would be useful in cases where the same small edit should be made to many pages, for example, correcting common spelling mistakes, or when we changed pages from "5e Archetype" to "5e Subclass." This could potentially be very useful depending on what we end up deciding (if anything) with regards to Homebrew banners and the case of the blind users. — Geodude Chatmod.png (talk | contribs | email)‎‎ . . 12:34, 17 January 2019 (MST)

Hmm. I bet SgtLion could do it if we give him permissions and backend access back. Should we look into that?--GamerAim Chatmod.png (talk) 13:13, 17 January 2019 (MST)
No. — Geodude Chatmod.png (talk | contribs | email)‎‎ . . 13:16, 17 January 2019 (MST)
No, he does not have my trust. --Green Dragon (talk) 13:25, 17 January 2019 (MST)
Ok, the extension has been installed and admins may use it. --Green Dragon (talk) 08:40, 19 January 2019 (MST)
A new tool that we can use, huh? It looks very interesting. Thanks, GD! Quincy (talk) 13:19, 19 January 2019 (MST)

Rom Pantheon 2 (3.5e Deity)[edit]

Hey GD, it looks like you placed a {{wikify}} on this page and I think its saying each deity needs its own page? Can you confirm this for me and I could start doing that to clear up the template? ~ BigShotFancyMan (talk) 11:20, 18 January 2019 (MST)

Sure, did my recent edit make this clear? --Green Dragon (talk) 12:38, 18 January 2019 (MST)
Absolutely. Thanks so much, I'll start doing that too then! ~ BigShotFancyMan (talk) 12:44, 18 January 2019 (MST)

Technical Help?[edit]

Hey, I started working on this Table of Hybrid Races page, as a sorta Extension to the 5e Race Variants page, except I hit a snag where the table breaks. Each cell uses a template with a #ifexists call, and apparently there's a limit to how many of those can be on a single page. Do you happen to know of any other way I can go about doing this, then? Varkarrus (talk) 16:20, 25 January 2019 (MST)

No Advertising?[edit]

You don't like advertisers, huh? XD --Cosmos (talk) 08:25, 28 January 2019 (MST)

Google Ads keep the site running, and the type of ads that that user was proposing are very obtrusive. If I got an email about it then I would have responded. --Green Dragon (talk) 08:36, 28 January 2019 (MST)
Ah. And wait, how do Google Ads keep the site running? Sorry for my lack of knowledge, I don't know much about how to run a website XD --Cosmos (talk) 12:01, 28 January 2019 (MST)
The cost of owning a domain( and the cost to pay a company to host your website equals X. Google acts an intermediary between a company that wants to advertise their services and the website owner. Advertisers pay Google and the owner for advertising their service. The amount received for doing so then goes to the company that hosts the website while excess goes to the owner to do with as they will such as maintaining the domain name, paying for larger storage capacity or buying a yacht. —ConcealedLightChatmod.png (talk) 13:49, 28 January 2019 (MST)
That's the corporate version, right. Hosting a website is not free, but D&D Wiki is not for profit. --Green Dragon (talk) 21:15, 28 January 2019 (MST)
Huh, interesting. Thanks for telling me. And thank you GD for having this non-profit awesome website up!! :D --Cosmos (talk) 05:12, 29 January 2019 (MST)

Revenue Opportunity from Fanbyte[edit]


I represent Fanbyte, A Tencent Company—which is one of the world's largest gaming and technology conglomerates. We are a company of gamers, geeks and enthusiasts—so I think we have a lot in common.

I want to discuss advertising on your site, and see if you are satisfied with the revenue that the display + video ads are generating. Fanbyte owns and operates several top-grossing, Alexa-ranked sites like, and recently began ad repping dozens of gaming-focused, community-oriented websites that we have grown into advertising revenue powerhouses.

Our partner sites typically see 3-5x boost in RPMs.

I would love to discuss your advertising strategy and see if we can shift our gaming-focused advertising your way. Are you free next week for a quick call?

Ah, GD dislikes advertisers on his talk page. And given what is directly above this, this is quite ironic. Rorix the White (talk) 17:44, 8 February 2019 (MST)
Most certainly XD the second I saw this I was like "Huh? Didn't he see what is above, which says NO ADVERTISING" LOL. GD does not respond to advertising on his talk page, but he will most like respond if it is an email, so I suggest you email him. --Cosmos (talk) 11:42, 9 February 2019 (MST)
Oh, and it would not be a bad idea to sign your posts as well, with four tildes. Like this- Rorix the White (talk) 12:21, 10 February 2019 (MST)
Rorix, you can't really show the example, since it turns into your signature. It goes like this, but without spaces. - - ~ ~ ~ ~ --Cosmos (talk) 14:03, 10 February 2019 (MST)
You can just put nowiki tags around it like so: ~~~~ — Geodude Chatmod.png (talk | contribs | email)‎‎ . . 14:17, 10 February 2019 (MST)
Huh, interesting. Thanks for telling me :) --Cosmos (talk) 14:54, 10 February 2019 (MST)
The ¨Like this¨ was meant to show the result, not the four tildes. I knew it would change, that was the point. Rorix the White (talk) 16:30, 10 February 2019 (MST)
Oh sorry XD --Cosmos (talk) 16:59, 10 February 2019 (MST)

I'd like to mention this user contacted the Facebook page and I directed them to GD's talk page. So even if they had read above, they were still advised to use GD's talk page. I'll be sure to specifically mention emailing GD in the future. ~ BigShotFancyMan (talk) 21:28, 10 February 2019 (MST)

to green dragon[edit]

You undid my edits without my permission. It probably was an accident and in that case sorry but you did it twice which was odd. And I am not being hacked or something I swear. It's okay if you felt "oh dear, they must have accidentally deleted content" but no. It's my choice, if you feel differently ask. And I'm not trying to attack or shame you I'm just notifying you. --Flushed crush (talk) 14:17, 11 February 2019 (MST)flushed crush

The issue GD had was that you edited other people's messages. It's fine to remove them entirely from your own talk page (though it's recommended you don't), but editing other people's comments is a HUGE no-no. — Geodude Chatmod.png (talk | contribs | email)‎‎ . . 14:42, 11 February 2019 (MST)
oh, in that case --Flushed crush (talk) 14:53, 11 February 2019 (MST)flushed crush

I'm creating a homebrew class[edit]

I'm creating a homebrew class and I need some help with a few things to make it more balanced. I wanted a system different to that of the book, in which sorcerers use magic spaces to use your skills. I was thinking of using acquired points per level, but I need help to know how many points you earn per level and how many spells can be used before taking a long rest and how many points each magic will cost. If you can assist me with this I'd be extremely grateful! (I think a conversation by e-mail would be more appropriate.)

Which one of these classes most represents the type of system you want to develop? The hermetic mage, magi, or jedi/sith? --Green Dragon (talk) 23:12, 13 February 2019 (MST)


What is the Policy on anything that deals with real world religion? -- 16:39, 20 February 2019 (MST)

To my knowledge, there's no specific policy dealing with things from the real world. As long as pages dealing with the real world adhere to the policies that every other page must adhere to, there is no problem. — Geodude Chatmod.png (talk | contribs | email)‎‎ . . 17:06, 20 February 2019 (MST)
Therr are even a few deity pages from various religions. --Green Dragon (talk) 23:47, 20 February 2019 (MST)

DandDWiki Background[edit]

It was brought to my attention that there were issues with the current background for the wiki. CL mentioned that there might have been vague copyright concerns, though he isn't sure about the validity of that claim. Regardless, I've put aside some time to work on a new background that might suit the wiki. I've spent some time considering various options and this is the image I've ended up creating (, which I then edited to be more user friendly towards the rest of the attributes. You can see that edit including a preview here [[1]]. I'd like to hear your thoughts on the possible implementation of a(not necessarily mine) new background image. -- ConcealedWife (Contributions) (Squa) 11:26, 26 February 2019 (MST)

I find that really neat. Yes, there have been some questions about the legality of the current background.
What are your reasons for "Frontalis"? We could potentially change it to "Noitaroballoc" (Collaboration spelled backwards). I already want to change it to your image! What color should we change the extended bottom on some pages too with this background? --Green Dragon (talk) 12:26, 26 February 2019 (MST)
I'm fine with "Noitarballoc". I chose Frontalis as a reference to the wiki's front / newspage but I can change that without issue. The colour #ada78c should serve as a good colour for the extended bottom, but I'm open to any suggestions. I'll edit the name of Frontalis now and I'll e-mail you the final version of that. -- ConcealedWife (Contributions) (Squa) 12:59, 26 February 2019 (MST)

GNU/Copyright/User change of Heart[edit]

GD, can you comment on the Talk:Archivist Tradition (5e Subclass) page about an issue regarding a user wanting to remove their contributions to the site please? I only grasp the concept, but cannot phrase things adequately. ~ BigShotFancyMan (talk) 10:07, 27 February 2019 (MST)

Medical Examiner(3.5e or 5e)[edit]

Is there a DC guideline for determining cause of death by use of Heal (or Medicine)?-- 13:20, 2 March 2019 (MST)

Why would you die if you are being healed? --Green Dragon (talk) 03:07, 3 March 2019 (MST)
I believe what is being asked is if there is a guideline for the DC of using the Heal or Medicine skills as an autopsy. Depending on the strangeness of the cause of death, time, and other circumstances, I would say probably anywhere from 10 to 30. Rorix the White (talk) 12:53, 3 March 2019 (MST)
Yes, I did mean using the Heal or Medicine skills as an autopsy. -- 18:49, 6 March 2019 (MST)

Wolf Lord[edit]

Hey I was wondering if you could take a look at the class. I made some edits and wonder if it's what you wanted it to be or if you could give me some tips on it

Done. --Green Dragon (talk) 00:26, 13 March 2019 (MDT)
Don't forget to sign your posts J3Was. Rorix the White (talk) 13:57, 13 March 2019 (MDT)

Vampire Lord[edit]

Were you the one who wanted to discuss the Vampire Lord subclass with the creator?

(Psst. Sign your posts with four tildes.) Rorix the White (talk) 16:02, 18 March 2019 (MDT)
Not necessarily, but if the subclasses are there then a main contributor can more easily review them. --Green Dragon (talk) 23:55, 18 March 2019 (MDT)

Requesting a Name Change[edit]

Can i please get another name? If Kara taken isn't taken, i would like to be called kara. --Doctor Dee (talk) 13:56, 17 March 2019 (MDT)

Done. --Green Dragon (talk) 13:37, 18 March 2019 (MDT)

FA/QA Help[edit]

Hi GD, since you're listed I am contacting you for input on a QA. Talk:Bag of Wizards (5e Equipment). If you got time, thanks. ~ BigShotFancyMan talk contributions 07:27, 20 March 2019 (MDT)

Stand User 2nd Variant[edit]

Although i appreciate you trying to make contributions, i fear the contributions you made to the class were greatly overpowered. I am going to have to purge the changes that occurred due to the mass edit, but if you'd like to tweak somethings in the class feel free to. I work hard to keep the class I created as closed to balanced and PHB material as possible.

Sincerely, —The preceding unsigned comment was added by ddoggh (talkcontribs) . Please sign your posts.

Stand User 2nd Variant[edit]

I'm sorry for blaming you for the poor changes made to my class. I see now that you tried your best to nullify the poor decisions made by anonymous users. I thank you for your contributions and wish you the best on your journey.

Sincerely, —The preceding unsigned comment was added by ddoggh (talkcontribs) . Please sign your posts.

Dark Knight class[edit]

Hello, my name is Zenith49 and i am have been developing my own Dark Knight class for the 5E system. while i had been searching for references and material to go on, i stumbled onto the one on this site. i did take great inspiration from this version along with other sources in development but couldn't find the original author for this one. wanting to give credit and to reference my sources i could only find your user name and Geodude671. wanting to know who was/all are the creators for the home-brew and for possible discussions on like projects? please and thank you for your time.

Looking at the page history, the Dark Knight (5e Class) appears to have been primarily contributed to by users who were not logged in. Just credit “users of D&D Wiki”. Beyond that I’m not entirely sure what you’re asking. — Geodude Chatmod.png (talk | contribs | email)‎‎ . . 21:54, 11 April 2019 (MDT)


are we allowed to create more than 1 account? (I'm just curious.) --Redrum 17:16, 17 April 2019 (MDT)

This article may help ~ BigShotFancyMan 08:41, 18 April 2019 (MDT)

A Couple Problematic Users[edit]

Hello there, I'm here this time to report a couple users.

One, there is a user with a name that I'm guessing is not within the rules, a user by the name of Negro...

Two, a user on the Tavern, Carlus, keeps chatting with periods and just a few letter. He's made a lot of lines in the Tavern, and I don't know if this is enough to act on but it seems pointless and annoying to me.

Thanks! --Cosmos (talk) 19:09, 27 April 2019 (MDT)

I just took care of the problem. Thanks for bringing it to our attention. Based Quincy (talk) 19:27, 27 April 2019 (MDT)
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