Talk:Oath of the Gun (5e Subclass)

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Featured article candidate .png This article is a current featured article nominee as of 15:00, 15 December 2018 (MST). Featured articles exemplify D&D Wiki's very best work, and therefore must meet the featured article criteria. Please become engaged in this process and support, oppose, and leave comments as to this page's featured article nomination (engage!).

Featured Article Nomination[edit]

I'm nominating this article as a Featured Article since it's a really fun twist on Paladins, turning them from tanky frontliners to supportive backliners with surprisingly little change. Plus, it's already been playtested in a campaign, so I can attest to it being fun and balanced!

  • Comment. - I am conditionally supporting the nomination. Rephrase the Healing Ray feature to something better worded and less non-standard than "your Lay on Hands ability gains 30 range", and move the editor's note to the talk page, or on the top in the form of a {{Design Note}}, and I'll make a formal Support vote. Quincy (talk) 14:58, 15 December 2018 (MST)
  • Comment. I am skeptical if this wasn't premature? I like the idea of a paladin gun oath. (Espcially regarding the Dark Tower series. The dudes with guns are called paladins!) But...
I like the Hunter's Mark spell and a couple others but others don't give the vibe for a gun paladin to me.
I'm not keen to giving this class an extra divine smite. I wish all paladins had more but why should this one get more than the others? The options are cool enough.
This is why I ask if this is premature. What can this be compared to? Has anyone used its effect yet? I'm skeptical to support an article when it has a feature I really like because there's a chance I like it for being too good.
I keep looking at this feature and to me, at level 18 this might as well say "immune to CR1s", maybe even a CR 1 or 2 higher as well. If damage is 9 or less, it becomes zero. Part of 5e is that the lowliest of creatures can still have an effect (Bounded Accuracy article). Only d10 cantrips can deal damage and that's at max damage; fighters with greatswords might do something, and one-handers will struggle much more. A rogue has to hit sneak attack. There's a feat that gives damage reduction 3. I think I finally understand why vs always considering it a waste. (Still a waste but I at least understand why it doesn't scale or there's improvements)
Healing Ray and Bullet Time are pretty cool things. I'd prefer to see healing ray on a healing focused then gun class but I won't harp on that feature.
Minor issues, I'm not a fan of "vanilla" descriptor. Appears condescending to me. I play vanilla. Is the non-vanilla homebrew? Image is good, maybe some wording touch ups, and few more SRDs to be included. ~ BigShotFancyMan (talk) 12:07, 18 December 2018 (MST)
  • I've used this class fairly extensively (at least, the lower levels). The reason why they get two channel divinities (I assume that's what you meant when you say divine smite) is because, individually, their channel divinities are a bit lower power than other paladin channel divinities. After testing them I'd found they needed strengthening but decided it was more fun to give the more uses as opposed to more power, so they have more options.
  • for Healing Ray; they have that because I didn't want the fact that they fight at range to weaken their lay on hands. Lay on hands is a pretty archetypical paladin ability, often used to heal other frontline fighters. Since they don't fight on the frontline, I gave them healing ray so they can do so anyways.
  • I don't find vanilla condescending honestly? It's just a simple way of saying "not 3rd party or homebrew." which is a pretty apt warning to give for this subclass. I wouldn't want someone to play this class and then use the firearms mentioned in the DMG, which are renaissance tier (and as such, not exactly vanilla either) and straight up overpowered compared to vanilla weaponry. Plus, Quickdraw loses some of its strength if the GM doesn't give their oath of the gun paladins guns that are balanced around their Reload property.
  • I'll see what I can do for the SRD links, but you may need to be more specific with what wording changes need to be made? Varkarrus (talk) 15:45, 18 December 2018 (MST)
I can dig that. More uses is more fun and you're correct about what I meant.
Maybe others can convince me ranged lay on hands is good. I don't think they need to do everything which this would provide. Making them enter the fray, which wouldn't hurt them with their d10 HD and good defenses, helps limit a class that could spec for tank, melee, ranged, and now pseudo-healer.
I suppose I am just use to seeing "core rules" or "1st party content" rather than "vanilla" so the deviation appeared/appears like a jab. I don't dispute the need for a design note; the wording is more informal(!) than what I am use to featuredness stuff.
I absolutely failed with examples and I knew this but only because of time. I need to eat some lunch but will clarify or make an edit that can be reverted if it isn't liked. ~ BigShotFancyMan (talk) 09:51, 19 December 2018 (MST)
At first glance the wording seemed capable of being improved but I think its different writing styles.
A new "issue", can Quick Draw critical hit? and can you Divine Smite when you Quick Draw. The potential to insta-kill something within these parameters is there. ~ BigShotFancyMan (talk) 13:34, 19 December 2018 (MST)
Quick Draw can critically hit, yeah. You can divine smite with it too but the damage from divine smite should definitely not factor in to the execution threshold; not sure how best to word that ("This threshold is checked before damage from divine smite is applied"?). Quickdraw was designed for instantly killing weak opponents or finishing off low health ones, but ultimately it can't deal more than twice your regular weapon damage, and only if you time it right. Sidenote but: even if they don't lose out on much durability while gaining range, I've found they still do worse in close range compared to other paladins simply because of the disadvantage on close-range attacks. Varkarrus (talk) 10:26, 21 December 2018 (MST)
I really like that disadvantage. There's more character involved vs standing back, with your good toughness (health/defenses), and throwing out some range Lay on Hands. Your design though, people like then so be it.
I am not sure but if it mentioned that "if they have less hp than the weapon damage done" or something along the lines identifying the weapon damage. ~ BigShotFancyMan (talk) 11:04, 21 December 2018 (MST)
I nerfed Aura of Grit, you were right that it was probably too powerful. I made it proficiency bonus instead of half character level. Many creatures are capable of doing more than 5 damage in a hit, but it's still ultimately more effective against low CR monsters. Varkarrus (talk) 12:25, 9 January 2019 (MST)
I think that's a good compromise. Glad you got to test that out! ~ BigShotFancyMan (talk) 06:05, 10 January 2019 (MST)
  • Support. - I really like the style and mechanics of this class. Not only does it allow a paladin to fulfill a niche the class is not designed for, but it does so elegantly, while also appealing to gun nuts such as myself. I wholeheartedly support this class becoming a Featured Article. Quincy (talk) 18:31, 15 December 2018 (MST)
  • Support. - The changes to Aura of Grit greatly improves the "balance" of the class in my opinion and I also retract my concerns about a 15th level paladin using Lay on Hands at range. They're a bad mamma jamma at that point already so what does it hurt to use it up to 30' feet. I don't share concerns about the weaponry. This article is about a subclass, not weapons. Its features are good and fair. If there is a concern with the firearms that are used, then a DM should evaluate those. ~ BigShotFancyMan (talk) 06:27, 10 January 2019 (MST)
  • Oppose. I am opposing this nomination not because of the page itself, but because this subclass is dependent on a variant rule that either A) is plainly unbalanced, if we're talking about the rules for firearms from the DMG, as this page itself states, or B) is a homebrew rule that has not been vetted by the FA process. If the page Fantasy Firearms (5e Variant Rule) becomes a FA or QA, I will happily support this nomination, as this is really the only issue I have with the page. — NPC Geodude Chatmod.png (talk | contribs | email)‎‎ . . 12:53, 9 January 2019 (MST)
    • That's valid. I'll nominate the Fantasy Firearms page for QA. Varkarrus (talk) 13:36, 9 January 2019 (MST)
  • Comment. Why is the fluff on this page little more than the "wild west lone wolf", but the class features have basically nothing to do with a "lone wolf"? I want to see the fluff really explain why the player is healing allies with an aura, and altogether why they have group-based features. Other than that, with the firearms rule's nomination, this page looks pretty solid. --Green Dragon (talk) 10:32, 11 January 2019 (MST)
"With the aid of local townsfolk" doesn't make sense either. Do they work with NPCs or what? For a featured article this really needs to be deepened, because I would have to change my comment to oppose if this were to get nominated right now. Including leading paragraphs for players, and/or expanding the introductory text would be sufficient. --Green Dragon (talk) 23:00, 31 January 2019 (MST)
Varkarrus, have you had a chance to consider GD's comments/concern above and whether to edit the page or answer here? ~ BigShotFancyMan (talk) 12:47, 20 February 2019 (MST)
To be honest, I'm stumped. I was going for a bit of a Mad Max or a Sundown Kid (from Live-a-Live) sort of angle for the fluff. If that doesn't work, I'm not sure where else I could take it. Varkarrus (talk) 11:22, 22 February 2019 (MST)
  • Comment. This nomination currently has until roughly the end of February; we might want to extend it until the QAN for the variant rule is decided since a couple users seem interested in that. ~ BigShotFancyMan (talk) 10:45, 31 January 2019 (MST)
    • That sounds fair, though it looks like it has enough support to qualify even if Geodude remains in opposition; especially considering his opposition is a conditional support. Varkarrus (talk) 10:53, 31 January 2019 (MST)
I would agree since there aren't issues with the article itself. My hesitation is if the variant rule doesn't succeed and that impacts GD's and Geo's opinions. ~ BigShotFancyMan (talk) 11:55, 31 January 2019 (MST)

Editor's Note[edit]

The "extra class feature" the Oath of the Gun Paladin gets at level 3 is meant less of an extra power boost, and more to help transition the Paladin from a melee class to a ranged one.

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