Talk:Behemoth (5e Class)
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Hey everyone! this is my first Homebrew class. Id love to hear peoples feedback and suggestions on how the class can be improved without taking away from the core of its purpose. --Vycanon
P.S. Thanks for all your edits on this class, when I originally wrote it I didn't have much experience and although I had an idea, getting it balanced and fun was hard for me. (talk) 17:59, 2 April 2018 (GMT+8)
Well, it would be nice if there were more (or some) options for those using 2 handed weapons, such as an archetype for those that wish to use a weapon and shield and an archetype for those that would like to use 2 handed weapons, or an alternate choice at the times one would gain a benefit for a "sword and shield". --ThatOneGuy 3/1/17 2:12pm CST
I have edited some of the features to be a bit more welcoming to two-handed players. --Vycanon 1/4/2017 5:38pm GMT+8
I originally designed the class to be a heavy hitter in a single hit who utilises reactions rather than a multiattacker --Vycanon 22/05/2017 2:19pm GMT+8
- The starting equipment isn't well thought out:
- Why would I pick ring mail over chainmail?
- Why would I pick a whetstone over two healing potions?
- The total value is very high. Two healing potions, chain mail, greatsword and explorer's pack is 135 gp. Please compare with the average starting wealth of a fighter (p. 143)
- I can have a free choice of one-handed weapon but my two-handed option is fixed at greatsword?
- Be weary of stacking bonuses. If I take one level of this, and one level of fighter (with the defensive style), I now have +3 AC. With Plate and shield, my AC is 23. This is why the fighter's +1 AC is codified as a specific "fighting style", so that it doesn't stack with other classes with the same option.
- The "two-handed melee weapon" option of the 2nd level feature isn't much good, as you can't wield a two-handed weapon in one hand (at this point).
- Behemoth's Strength. If the character doesn't have Str 18 at this point (which is entirely possible), they don't get these benefits. If you are using the standard ability scores, you would have to choose a race with a +2 Str bonus and you would have to increase your Strength at 4th level. Classes should be flexible to support different builds, not one strict path.
- On that note, there are no class options.
- Ready Stance. Advantage should be more circumstantial than this. There are lots of cases in which you don't have to move. Furthermore, a lesson from 4e is that it's more interesting to be dynamic than static.
- Unstoppable Force. If a feature requires DM discretion, it probably means that the feature needs better definition. "Most conditioned effects". Which? What about restrained and grappled, which specify that your speed becomes 0?
- Carnage. This is like having the fighter's Action Surge for 10 turns in a row (a 20th level fighter gets 2 turns). On top of that, you get the speed and all those advantages and this and that. I can't say I'm a fan of huge penalties to offset huge benefits, it doesn't matter much if you've saved this to wipe out the big bad guy.
- Ability score prerequisites are always odd-numbered. Marasmusine (talk) 08:15, 8 June 2017 (UTC)
Other than Carnage, i don't think this class is overpowered (except for multiclassing purposes), but it is outright boring. No special flavor, just stack numbers and here you are. -- Dhunter2 25/09/2017 05:53 am (BRS)
List of features removed, possibly worked into archetype.
- Level 3- Immune to Fear
- Level 7- Immune to charm
- Level 10- your Strength score increase by 2. The maximum for your Strength score also increases by 2. Your Strength score maximum increases by 2 again at 14th level and at 17th level (to a maximum of 26)
- level 14- when you roll a damage die for an attack that you make, you can reroll any die but must use the new roll, even if the new result is lower or the same.
A chainshirt is medium armor which this class doesn't have proficiency in making it pretty much useless to offer as the player couldn't wear it.
I Personally think it could be a fun class but it does give the player WAY to many ways to just have advantage on a target. combined that with some feats that give you extra things for having advantage and you are looking at a class that quickly becomes OP. Keep trying im sure you will do better as you keep thinking it over. -Kasimir. 17:52 11/28/17 (EST)
The lackluster of the level one Feature sets the unfortunate pace of this class. It's a highly situational perk, and even if someone is going for more of a tanky character, how practical can it be for someone who uses a 2-handed(and possibly over-sized) weapon to be constantly looking for half+ cover? I tried this class in a one-shot campaign and I had to constantly ask the DM to add more detailed terrain for me(and we ended up in a desert so this perk became SUPER useless). Most of the original classes come with some decent perks that build up more momentum overtime as they level. Updating this level one Feature may make this class more viable, and maybe help avoid this class becoming just a one trick pony. Maybe something like the Fighter or Barbarian for it's first level? -HalfHeartedAvenger. 15:51 3/14/2018 (CT)
- I can see what you mean. What do you think about flipping it, rather than defensive, make it offensive. “You ignore cover on melee attacks” and second wind like the fighter. As I loooked it at, a class designed to be a “behemoth” attempting to find cover is thematic. I’m curious, what level and subclass did you choose? BigShotFancyMan (talk) 17:10, 14 March 2018 (MDT)
I think that would be a good redefinition of this class, but I do have a couple alternate suggestions if you want to keep it based on defensive. Something like "when you are attacked you may use your reaction to increase your AC by #, you may use this feature # time(s) between (Short and/or long) rests. (you could also increase this in some way at certain levels). You could also make it a reaction/bonus action to take half damage to all non-magical damage(and maybe give an inclusion to magical damage at a certain high level) with similar times of use between rests. Or you could do something similar to Barbarian rage, but base it more on defense. For my one shot I started at level 2, and got to level 3 before the game ended, and I chose to go for savage, due to the guaranteed increases, vs Feral's long term benefits. I'm not a huge fan of the perks Savage receives later because they are just things that you could get from being a fighter(but I understand their relevance for the class). Being able to re-roll bad rolls is nice, but if the description says that the savage targets foes in a calculated way, I would like to see some ability that reflects that claim. On the topic of the other subclass... I am actually now in another game as well where I decided to go behemoth so I've been thinking about what I'll choose, but I don't think I'll take feral due to the DC effects. Personally I think that the saves should be switched, where the save a person has to make is equal to damage dealt, and to remove wounded they need to make a DC vs half damage dealt(makes more sense to me, even though it does seem like later into progression it almost guarantees a wounding hit. Hope my opinions help --HalfHeartedAvenger (talk) 10:40, 15 March 2018 (MDT)
- Awesome feedback. Keeping defensive stays closer to the OPs idea. The parry I'm not sure we want to have a such a low level, making it very easy for others to dip into this and then stack bonuses. I do like the damage resistance though. In order to include magic at later levels, I was thinking of removing the 9th level feature, fixed positioning, since this feature is "clunky" and I think would only confuse players/DMs. I designed it only to keep OPs ideas intact, but this feature is not as simple as I'd like to see. So:
- Defensive Training
- Beginning at level 1, you may use a reaction to gain resistance to non-magical weapon damage for 1 minute. Once you use this feature, you must finish a short or long rest before you can use it again. And twice between rests at level 17.
- Improved Defensive Training
- Starting at level 9, when you use your reaction to gain resistance, you now have resistance to all damage for 1 minute.
- Thoughts about those changes? and in regards to the Feral DCs, swap the DC to avoid being wounded with removing a wound. I wasn't 100% about the damage being dealt and how hard/easy it would be to avoid wounds. I thought the Behemoth would do enough damage that half of it being a DC would be fair, but if they never wound, the whole subclass is worthless and if they always wound, does the adversary even have a chance to avoid? BigShotFancyMan (talk) 11:55, 15 March 2018 (MDT)
When you talk about the parry are you referring to the level 2 perk? When I was playing Behemoth my DM thought it was a bit OP because he tried to kill me in a 2 v 1 bathroom brawl, but having that reaction perk pulled me through( Specifically I was a Goliath Behemoth, which is the race to play for this class IMO). I don't think that it's that overpowered inherently though, because you only get one reaction per turn(but There are a small few ways to take advantage of this perk I will admit). Also, I like the changes to it so far, but I would change the name to Defensive Resistance Training or just Resistance Training, because the Behemoth is trained to be able to take a hit, and not necessarily to avoid a hit.
To put feral into perspective let's say that I have an oversized greatsword which does 2d12 damage + Str. mod(let's assume max str stat +5), at max damage the DC for that would be 15(rounding up). That is the highest you could get without a crit. If you assume average damage 12 + 5, that's an 11. That doesn't seem too bad, but this is assuming that you won't be using shield 2hander combo, which would make DC for that route abysmal. I know that chances of getting a crit go up with level, but I have a suggestion for this that would maybe make you feel better about it. The DC for wound is damage dealt excluding the Str. mod, and the DC for the exit is DC 10 + str. Also, Bleed lasts for a maximum of 1 x Str. Mod turns before effect stops and must be reapplied(attacking an already wounded target does not reapply wound effect). This adds some extra contingencies that keep the effect from being long lasting. The harder that a Behemoth smacks an enemy, the harder it is for them to resist becoming wounded.(also the damage that wounded does should have a type assigned to it, I recommend either bludgeoning or force damage[as in magic damage caused by such a concussive blow]).
I also thought of an alternative feature that could replace a feature, such as vicious critical or it could be added to Savage to add flavor. I call it Fight or Flight. "As an action, you can Shout and swear at a creature in order to taunt it, if the creature fails a DC 10 + str. mod + prof. mod.(to a maximum of 20) charisma or strength save, then the creature must use it's reaction to move it's max speed towards you, or away from you, at DM's discretion. This movement provokes opportunity attacks. If the creature moves moves out or ends movement within your melee range, you may use your reaction to make an attack of opportunity with advantage. Regardless of failure or success of the save, the creature now has advantage on you for 1 x str. mod. turns.(if this is put into savage you could have it increase one use after reaching a certain level, but I wouldn't do more than 2 max uses per long rest). Let me know what you think about all this! --HalfHeartedAvenger (talk) 15:57, 15 March 2018 (MDT)
- I do agree Parry at such a low level is OP. I don't think a class should get it sooner than level 3, and possibly tied to a subclass. Just personal thoughts though.
- I think "Resistance Training" is a good idea for the name.
- You're idea to make the DC equal to the damage dealt isn't bad, until the class gets oversized weapons. What I consider (during this conversation) is that DCs are usually 8+prof+ability modifier. I am use to seeing DC between 12-14. With a +5 mod, level 1 DC is 15 and at "max" proficiency, the DC is 19. When we consider the oversized weapons, this changes drastically & for the record, not a fan of oversized weapons, it throws kinks into balancing. So I think it best to aim for those numbers. I mean, DC based on damage of oversized is
7-297-21? If it could be the avg, 15, everytime cool.How about 8+half the damage. The DC would range from 11-2211-18 (using oversized greatsword). With features from other classes, explained below, and features gained later, the DC will become oppressive I think. :/
- If behemoth multiclassed into UA ranger variant, I think it'd be super awesome synergy with favored enemies. +2 damage, that increases the DC by 2!! Add your Colossal Slayer 1d8 and that DC is looking even better. Or rogue with Sneak Attack. This brings me to my thoughts of not wanting to tie this to str mod. That idea pigeon holes this class into the strength ability and 5e really got away from doing that sort of thing.
- The bleed lasting for "x" rounds falls under round counting and is against 5e ideas so far. It is extremely taboo on the wiki as well. The current wording allows it to last until their healed or a medicine check. Meaning someone has to spend an action to do it.
- A lot of scattered thoughts, hopefully they help with what is being considered when finding the sweet spot on this classes balance. What I've found is, you can't just balance the class in itself, it needs to balance with the game/other classes. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 09:32, 16 March 2018 (MDT)
- I misunderstood also, when I read or hear Parry, I think of the Bandit Captain that add 2 to AC with a reaction (or 3?). I don't think the +1 is too terrible though. You lose opportunity attacks, you can't ready action, and you can only "parry" once. I think I need to clarify that the increase only lasts for that attack though.
- I will also look where fight or flight could go. Do you have a reason why you'd think it'd be good? The OP had this very simple idea of a class to just smash stuff. Like more vanilla than a fighter if you ask me lol so I tried to stick to a very simple class structure. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 09:42, 16 March 2018 (MDT)
I was actually in the middle of typing up a more thoughtout analysis on what I said yesterday, and then I got a notification that you had added to the post haha. Here is what I had written so far - I thought about the two subclasses a little more, and if Savage is more geared towards for those who are going sword and board and Feral is for those who are going for Over-sized weapon fighting then Feral would be fine to stay as it is, but I still think that Savage needs some added flavor to it. I'm not sure that my custom feature would be right for the Behemoth class, but if any form of it was to be added I would think that it would give the Savage subclass a kind of identity, one that kind of builds on the idea of high risk high reward style of fighting that matches the lvl 20 feature. If they aren't meant to favor towards any certain playing style, then I might suggest that the DC of the wound change to something more concrete like 12 + str. mod(because I realized after doing the math on my suggested wounding stats that while it might be just alright for someone using sword and shield, it would be nearly impossible for any creature to avoid the effect from a 2-handed over-sized weapon(like you brought up earlier). The medicine check could still be for the amount of damage dealt, since it can also be healed by any magic healing(i'm assuming even 1 point of lay on hands could negate the effect). I like the idea that being wounded is harder to shake off the harder the person was hit.- In terms of the parry I might even say that it can last until the end of the turn, since it's only a +1, if you factor in the loss of flexibility. Also, normally I would agree that oversized weapons throw off balance, but in this class it's kind of like you sacrifice multiattack for a more massive attack, and since this class doesn't give you any multiattack until level 20(with an unholy amount of exhaustion and psychic damage lol) I think the Behemoth's Strength feature is forgivable. For the Fight or Flight feature, I like to think that because it's a strength based class that he kind of forgoes intimidation and shocks people with his overwhelming power. The generic human response to fear is to either flee from it, or face it head on, and I think that a Behemoth's intensity could trigger such a response. I don't mind adjusting it at all, for instance like you said generic DC is 8 + prof. + ability mod. and I added that they could use Str or cha saves to resist. My argument for that is that you could either match pure strength with strength or fight off the intimidating aura of the Behemoth. You have to admit it would add flavor to that subclass. I also added repercussions for using it, so it's something that DM's could fight against in certain situations if need be. I thought I would quote the Savage subclass description to argue for this feature, " A savage does not lose control or rage like that of others. Its nature is controlled but primal. The strikes are decisive and its enemies targeted." --HalfHeartedAvenger (talk) 10:06, 16 March 2018 (MDT)
Looked at your edits and so far it looks good, the DC change seems appropriate to me, and just to make sure, the DC for the medicine check is the same as the initial DC, or is it different?--HalfHeartedAvenger (talk) 10:26, 16 March 2018 (MDT)
- I'm glad you like. Yes it would be the same, and with an oversized 2d8 weapon, the max DC is 22, min is 15. Weapons that do less damage will maintain that minimum DC and have lower max, which I think is okay.
- Fight or Flight, level 20 feature? I'm not fond of carnage. It's a mess in my book and left over from the OP, balanced to keep the spirit of the article. It's always nice to have options too. Special:Chat BigShotFancyMan (talk) 10:33, 16 March 2018 (MDT)
- I think that it would be a good level 20 feature, but if that's when the class is going to receive it I might suggest that it's given a bit more meat to it. Right now it's basically an altered version of dissonant whispers, and one that honestly has a lot more drawbacks.We could keep the drawback that (if the enemy survives) his next attack has the player at disadvantage(due to the increased aggression towards the player) and delete the "for 1 x str. mod turns", since you said that's not in the spirit of 5e, and instead add that the monster also has advantage on the next check/save that the Behemoth player triggers. we could have it allow multiple uses(3 per long rest?) and act as a bonus action, so that it is possible for the player to get two attacks in one turn(like with carnage). --HalfHeartedAvenger (talk) 11:09, 16 March 2018 (MDT)
- "Starting at 20th level, you can channel all your energy into a roaring shout. All enemies within 30 feet that can hear you must pass a [[5a|wis}} saving throw, DC 8 + proficiency bonus + your Strength modifier, or become frightened for 1 minute. Your movement speed is doubled if you move towards a frightened creature and when you use the Attack action against a frightened creature, you may use a bonus action to make a melee attack against the same creature. You must finish a short or long rest to use this feature again."
- I sort of combined the two features. Behemoth can still get another attack in and there's only have your suggestion. Was taunting a deal breaker? Mind you, frightened doesn't force them to run, they just can't approach the behemoth. recharge of short rest should allow this to be used every encounter. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 13:21, 16 March 2018 (MDT)
The only thing I would add, in order to balance it a bit and keep with the side effects, is that an enemy that passes the save gains advantage on attacks against the player(either for one turn or one minute?). This would also allow the perk to still be called fight or flight. Also would the double speed towards frightened targets and the bonus action attack work at any time or just 1 minute after the feature activates? It should be clarified either way, but to let my opinion be known I don’t imagine it being over powered because there are lots of enemies that can’t even be frightened anyway.--HalfHeartedAvenger (talk) 13:50, 16 March 2018 (MDT)
- Off the top of my head, barbarian reckless attack is only feature that imposes a penalty to gain something. 5e doesn’t do a lot of balancing by using negative effects or penalties and I really like this. I’ve never felt you should feel bad about doing or using something. I also don’t think it’s unbalanced the way it’s worded above. The name fight or flight can stay as well because when the behemoth is upon them, they can ready action when he gets in range or if he’s already there fight him OR run away aka flight.
- I considered specifying when the double move speed applied but like you mentioned, I don’t think it being a static effect is too much. I don’t think frightened is a condition routinely applied. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 21:27, 16 March 2018 (MDT)
Well if you feel that it is balanced well then I feel inclined to agree with you, I'm just trying to think through it from a DM standpoint, would I allow one of my players to use this class? Of course I would lol, but I'm trying to keep in mind some of the stricter DMs.
On another note, could we take the time to discuss how we could make the Savage subclass a little more flavored? I feel like everything else seems pretty good, but just the fact that it starts out with just giving the player a +2 to damage(or really any plain ole' stat increase) doesn't seem like a welcoming segue for any subclass, in my humble opinion. I'm not saying it needs some crazy overpowered starting perk, but something that gives the player a little bit of flexibility would be nice. If I knew more about what the OP wanted for this class, or if the OP still checked up on their own creation lol, it would be easier to finish ironing out the creases of this class. --HalfHeartedAvenger (talk) 23:51, 16 March 2018 (MDT)
- check out the earlier discussions here, and also read the beginning of the class. He really wanted this class to be a “one punch man”. Relying on static/passive buffs and gear instead of activations and temporary increases. When developing this we just can’t load those single hit ideas too early because of multiclassing. I know the class is missing flavor, I focused on balance and walked away.
- off the top my head I think savage first feature could scale. At each subclass improvement, the bonus damage increases by 1. Not much flavor but a little more interesting. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 06:15, 17 March 2018 (MDT)
Alright I get your point for sure, maybe I can give you an idea for a more interesting lvl 3 trait then. After reading this I was thinking of a way to add something that doesn't stack benefits at first, but becomes more lucrative later. Perhaps the lvl 3 perk could give the player the introduction into "Savage Dice". At level 3, the Player recieves 1 savage die worth 1d4. This damage die is added to all successful attacks. You could increase it slowly at higher levels. So for instance at level 8 the player receives a second savage die, at level 11 those die become 1d6(?), and at level 16 those die are each treated as 1d10(?) when the savage makes a critical hit. This would add some interesting flavor, and make his critical blows all the more devastating at that high level(you could put these at the other subclass levels alternatively but after looking at the features for one level above I think it would be more balanced)--HalfHeartedAvenger (talk) 11:45, 17 March 2018 (MDT)
- So superiority dice? Not saying a bad idea, just making sure I understand you. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 12:04, 17 March 2018 (MDT)
Superiority dice would be a good option, but I was more just replacing the +2 with a dice roll for higher or lower damage. Superiority dice would keep this from being crazy, so I'm glad you brought it up. But let's suppose we add superiority dice, would we need to give the Behemoth battle maneuvers like in battlemaster? --HalfHeartedAvenger (talk) 12:18, 17 March 2018 (MDT)
- I don't think behemoth needs maneuvers, I used the term to make sure I understood your idea. Keeping them as Savage Dice (or whatever) I think is fine.
- I, personally, don't like adding a fighting style to it. For me, it's either swap out features or stack more on. I'd rather swap out features than add more because I think what's here is good and current features could be improved (if necessary).
- and just for my thinking, this class I think isn't bad where stands (based on my assumption of design intent). The fighter or ranger could provide combat options, but behemoth was/is just this class that whacks stuff hard. Very vanilla, not much to it. It currently falls short of late-game fighter DPS. I'd like to fix some of this, but keeping in mind not to front load the perks. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 07:26, 19 March 2018 (MDT)
I got the opportunity to try out this class at max level using all of the changes(and fight or flight) and it was pretty powerful (I will say the mage with me stole the show still with unbelievable damage potential). The frightened feature was a pretty decent help to the party. I did find that only having one use was a bit hard for me to deal with, because after one fight I couldn't do it again. I took the Feral subclass for it and it's pretty nice with fight or flight in group combos. Giving the Savage subclass the extra Savage dice will help that be a more viable choice as well. All in all the Behemoth is an okay late game targeting DPS/Tank. I would think that going savage would lead to a slight increase in DPS compared to Feral, so it really would just depend on the if the person want's more guaranteed attacks vs more damage potential(if the behemoth savage perk was stated out officially I would have tried it instead, but since it's just in the talks here I didn't feel like I could justify trying it out just on how I perceive it will be). Also yeah I didn't mean to imply that I wanted to just add a fighting style, I was just thinking it could replace something else somewhere potentially(I'm just playing with different ideas for the class).--HalfHeartedAvenger (talk) 09:15, 19 March 2018 (MDT)
I also noticed that you changed the Savage level 3 feature to increase at different increments, does that damage count as ability modifier damage? If it does then it would be effected by the Vicious Critical feature.--HalfHeartedAvenger (talk) 10:10, 19 March 2018 (MDT)
- Awesome playtest feedback. I made that change prior to any play test with savage dice. It remains plain and boring but gives that persistent/static effect originally desired. I suppose adding short rest to Carnage could help out with that. If things seem weak, its only because I find more joy in buffing features. The DCs for Feral subclass wasn't too bad though? Things worked out fairly? Fighting Style might be better than the 2nd level feature. That damage is not ability damage, it is simply bonus damage. It would be ridonkulous as ability damage on criticals though :D:D:D
- Would you still prefer Savage Dice? This can be listed at the end of the class as a variant rule?? We'd both sort of get our way then ya know? Maybe even same thing with the fight style too. I'm not trying to go nuts with things here, but you're consistent about these ideas and they aren't bad by no means. So, with a couple variant options, players COULD have those options to sort of mess around with. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 12:49, 19 March 2018 (MDT)
I really like the idea of variant options for those who want choices(although calling them variant makes me feel like a DM is less likely to allow them, even though that's the usual term for alternate options in d&d), my only qualm with the fighting style rule is the pigeon-holing of fighting styles(I realize that these are technically the only ones that really apply here, but I would like there to be options for homebrew fighting styles[pending DM discretion as always] especially since this is in itself a homebrew class), otherwise I think that it's fair, you could also do the same for Fight or Flight unless you think that Carnage should stay as the only choice(or alternatively you feel like Carnage isn't a good fit here anymore, Fight or Flight can replace it completely). Also, in terms of level 20 Feral DC it was pretty rough on enemies(albeit these were PCs so stats were wonky), I had a tough time fighting the barbarian on the other team, but everyone else was pretty weak to my Fight or Flight(and Carnage if I had chosen that), and afterwards coming in with Feral was easy(since I got advantage on them). When not paired with those features then only crits are hard for enemies to pass. The DC averaged around 17 for non-crit and around 25 for a crit, give or take for lack of official calculation. But man this is giving me the itch to homebrew my own class lol--HalfHeartedAvenger (talk) 14:33, 19 March 2018 (MDT)
On another note, do you know anyone who could check out this class once all these edits are finished and determine if there is anything that needs to be altered, or if not that it's ready for release from review jail? I also wanted to ask if the Feral wounded feature was reapplied after every hit, because if it is then at higher levels it's a bit too busted(but if it is just initially applied and only reapplied when the creature is not under effect of wounded then it makes it more reasonable in my opinion), but either way unless their is a general consensus about how effects like that are applied it may require clarification--HalfHeartedAvenger (talk) 07:50, 20 March 2018 (MDT)
- If a DM allows a homebrew but not its variants I'd be puzzled. If there are good homebrew fighting styles I don't see the harm adding them, the danger being multiclassing and stack benefits. I like carnage the way it is. I've asked others to take a look at this now, so we should see some feedback on the talk page soon.
- Make something man! I've finally started my own piece rather than curate everyone else's but I typically put my work on the back burner for the sake of helping the site.
- I can remove the needsreviewed stub, as said, I've asked others. RAW would imply a saving throw everytime they take damage. There is no benefit to re-wounding though. RAI, the DM/player could just leave it alone unless the target wasn't wounded. yeah? BigShotFancyMan (talk) 09:14, 21 March 2018 (MDT)
I can guarantee you that I have a couple DMs that can be quite inconsistent lol, but perhaps that's not a common problem for most players. Also, the dangers of multiclassing don't seem to be any greater than they are usually(which of course I mean they can make things super busted depending on the classes), but I would say that it's up to the DM to look over what the player is wanting to multiclass as and veto certain multiclass pairings(pending inevitable player vs DM argument haha). Also, when I played the lvl 20 test run I used wounded RAI and I don't see a ton of people trying to reapply wound every time they attack either(but their may be some justification when it comes to changing the DC). When those others get to this I'd definitely love to hear their opinions! I guess for 'Fight or Flight' i'll just bookmark it for future material--HalfHeartedAvenger (talk) 11:59, 21 March 2018 (MDT)
- Ah! Good point about trying to make the DC higher. I'll see about making it clearer so there isn't an issue with that. With homebrew fighting styles, I imagine someone creating a new style, different name but same effects. In essence, one could stack the bonus. So it'd just be creating styles that don't duplicate or push an existing style over the edge. I don't have an issue with my tables because I DM at both and when not DMing at the one, its friends that DM and their very similar in their reasoning and logic skills. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 12:54, 21 March 2018 (MDT)
That's true that someone could do that, but any DM who cares about that kind of abuse will be checking homebrew content before allowing it in the game.--HalfHeartedAvenger (talk) 14:27, 21 March 2018 (MDT)
- I imagine this almost seems like a new class lol I apologize for any headache your DM has. Feel free to join/ask question in the class review section with Blobby ask things on this section. Beings its public, anyone can join anywhere (except user [safe] spaces) BigShotFancyMan (talk) 14:13, 22 March 2018 (MDT)
I like the idea of the class being a frontline tank that deals a ton of damage with one attack, but lets see whether the class actually fuffills this role by looking at its features.
- Resistance Training. I really like this feature, it is effectively a Rage that: always lasts 1 minute, can be used by spellcasters, doesn't provide bonus damage, and can't be activated as as a bonus action(which helps balance it out). Overall, this is a great 1st level feature.
- Versatile Fighting. The first part of this feature is simply a much worse Defensive Duelist feat. The second part is an extremely powerful feature that does not belong at 2nd level(this often doubles your damage output). The effects of this feature also can not be used together since they have different requirements. I would re-add fighting styles and make the first part of this feature into a fighting style that scales on half your proficiency bonus rounded up, and move the other part to a higher level(maybe 5th, see my comments below).
- Instinctive Nature. I will give the subclasses a look later, if I have not already done so below
- Improved Critical. This simply needs to be replaced with something far better, this is the level classes get 3rd level spells, extra attack, or other really strong defining features. I would recommend something like "Beginning at 5th level, the first melee attack you make against a creature using a melee weapon that doesn't have the light property, deals 2d6 additional damage. This damage increases to 4d6 at 11th level and 6d6 at 17th level."(amounts can be changed, but a bad 5th level feature makes playing the class feel really bad since it deal less damage than every other 1st party class at 5th level).
- Behemoth's Strength. Why does this allow you to use oversized weapons? It only increases your damage output by 1, you would need a design disclaimer to signify the use of a variant rule, PC's who play this class have the potential to be small, which can potentially make them unable to wield these weapons(DMG pp. 278), and the variant rule was intended to balance Large races by replacing large weapons with deal double damage with oversized weapons which deal 1 extra damage, this feature is also not clear about the the interaction between medium or smaller sized races and large weapons(whether you still have disadvantage on attack rolls).
- Unstoppable Force. It is unclear whether the str checks part applies a bonus to checks you are already proficient in or whether it just adds double your proficiency bonus to a check.
- Behemoth Resilience. I like this feature, it is thematic and strong but not too good.
- Vicious Critical. Bonuses to critical hits are generally very weak(usually adding less than 1) damage on average. The class honestly needs stronger features since you can only make one attack on a turn. Even after you have the second critical hit chance increase, this adds 3/20 * 5 15/20, 0.75 damage on average.
- Carnage. I am unsure of what to think about this feature. It boosts your PC to insane levels, but it ends after 1 minute or after you reach 0hp and then you are almost worthless at doing anything besides being just raw hp. Maybe a feature that makes you really hard to kill for the 1 minute would fit better?--Blobby383b (talk) 20:43, 21 March 2018 (MDT)
- Behemoth's Strength is from the OP. This feature has caused me angst in balancing the class. I've kept it for the spirit of the original design. I will evaluate it and make it clearer or something different. HHA and myself have felt something is missing. I think I purposefully nerfed the class so when balancing I wouldn't get a ton of "needsbalance" stubs/comments, so I will take great joy in buffing this class. Great insight and advice Blobby, thanks for your help. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 07:10, 22 March 2018 (MDT)
- I cannot thank you enough for the "cleaning up" edits you made. Such tedious task and I appreciate the help so much. I apologize for Carnage, or the version you saw. I had discussed something different but never changed it. The current version is what I meant to be reviewed, again, sorry.
- I also have a question if Vicious Critical dealing max instead of doubling ability modifier damage would be too far in the direction of giving more power? I hope the edits are looking good, I know I am feeling much about this class already, esp with that 5th level suggestion! BigShotFancyMan (talk) 09:30, 22 March 2018 (MDT)
- The Vicious Critical feature itself isn't too powerful, but I worry that it makes the class's damage output too inconsistent. I also like the current 20th level feature much more, instead of just providing raw damage output, creatures can make a saving throw to avoid the effect.
- On another note, I fixed/changed a few more things about the class but feel free to change them if they don't fit the class. I will probably have to look over the class a few more times to catch any other inconsistences, but I feel the class does its job of dealing damage in one attack a lot better now.--Blobby383b (talk) 12:44, 22 March 2018 (MDT)
- Perhaps something more flavorful will come to mind for a high level feature. Happy to hear current Carnage looks better. My curiosity would be why the change on the subclass feature for the skills? I copy pasted from 1st party content the wording and grammar so the edit I question. Otherwise, the edits and thoughts are wonderful. I really liked the specifics of "on each turn" for bloodthirsty. It is a phrase I considered adding somewhere else but ended up not doing it. TYVM! BigShotFancyMan (talk) 14:10, 22 March 2018 (MDT)
I've been wanting to discuss the recent modifications(since I've been playing this class myself in a campaign), but for various reasons beyond my control I have not been able to meet with my DM to play test the new class(At level 4 is where we were at last). I just wanted to make it clear that I hadn't forgotten about helping out or any changes since I haven't said anything in a couple weeks. Hopefully I'll be able to test it this weekend(or if not next weekend for sure) and then I'll give my comments on the current class and any of my opinions about the recent changes. Just from reading it for the most part I like what's being done with the new changes(like the updated carnage :D haha)--HalfHeartedAvenger (talk) 07:34, 2 April 2018 (MDT)
Now that I have finally be able to play as the Behemoth while using this new build I have a few comments on the new features that I got to use and what I think about the features that will become available upon leveling up.
Resistance Training- After finally getting to play as this class and testing this updated feature, I find this feature to be pretty balanced as of level 4. The limitations on amount of uses, in my opinion, gives the player pause when deciding to use this feature(as in they don't want to waste on an encounter in which they don't need to use it). I don't know how the level 9 upgrade will effect my thoughts on this, but as it stands I don't think that it will be a problem, as for similar reasons I stated above.
Retaliation- For me this seems like a great choice to move the previous feature "versatile training" from level two(as those of us who discussed it before decided that it was overall too powerful to be accessible so early) to the level 15 slot. However, I do feel like the original (second option) perk "While you are wielding a two-handed weapon and an attack would miss, you can use your reaction for an opportunity attack against the creature that just missed you." was a better fit. This makes more sense to me in that a warrior based on defense would be more likely to parry against a failed attack, than be able to parry against an attacker who already made a hit on him. This coming from the standpoint of the character being a more defensive character in general. I also noticed that in the new version the point was made to remove the use of "opportunity attack", but I don't understand why that was chosen. It seems to me that as an opportunity attack it would benefit from a feat like "Blade Mastery", but would also lose out on attacks against creatures that had feats like "mobile"(and I think that this makes perfect sense, because a creature that doesn't provoke opportunity attacks wouldn't likely get hit by a reactionary attack). All in all this feature is the only one that I really would like you guys to take another look at for me.
Vicious Critical- This feature definitely seems powerful, and it pairs well with both Savage's and Feral's perks(with Savage receiving more benefits from this perk imo). However, I feel like this class would still benefit similarly from a perk like the fighter Champion subclass "Superior Critical- Starting at 15th level, your weapon attacks score a critical hit on a roll of 18–20." I'm not saying that this is an important change, but I think it's an option to consider(and If I'm not mistaken this was sort of feature was in the earlier design so that's something to consider, stats be damned). Again, this isn't a necessary change just food for thought.
For the sublclasses I think that Savage has been appropriately made into a viable choice, and Feral has been only ever so slightly nerfed with a couple of rewording choices (which is fine, it's still an amazing choice for a subclass as well).
Most of the other perks are basically the same as they were before these updates, so as far as I'm concerned they all work well with this class.
P.S. sorry that it took this ridiculous amount of time for me to provide this feedback, a few factor like my group's time schedule as well as our recent creation of our own d&d twitch channel has made it impossible for us to play until recently. Hopefully I'm not too late to chime in before this thread has been forgotten! --HalfHeartedAvenger (talk) 08:41, 1 May 2018 (MDT)
- HEY HHA, nice to see some feedback (as always!). I hope you don't mind if I respond point for point, I just don't want to miss something.
- I'm super glad you like you this feature. I was pretty happy when Blobby and I came to this conclusion.
- Retaliation, the one you want looked over. Just to explain a little, I think I goofed when I originally made it you can make an opportunity attack against a creature that misses. If you can find examples where that grammar is used then I could be more in favor of such changes but I think using a reaction to attack is the common phrase used. and for flavor sake, you retaliate against those that hit you, not miss :p In regards to them being defensive and getting missed, I find that a win. So take a loss, like being hit, let's make that a win too. Now there's a win-win! Not benefitting from those feats may be a good thing, otherwise there might be an unintended power spike. I am not sure though. If your DM permits, play it as Opportunity Attack with blade mastery.
- Viscious-I agree and I wasn't sure if expanding the critical threat range and maxing a crits damage would be balanced. If User:Blobby383b has an idea about it, it'd be great to hear. He shared some great advice about criticals with me before, seems to understand them decent enough.
- Feel free to refute anything, I enjoy discussion. I'm glad that this class worked well at your table too, helps solidify it as almost done if not done already. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 10:32, 1 May 2018 (MDT)
With my suggestion with Retaliation I would have changed the name to fit a missed attack reaction like "Hardened Parry" or something like that lol, but you're right that it makes sense in it's wording( and it honestly doesnt matter if it triggers on misses or hits because both happen all the time). Also, I do get what you're saying with how it's not common to see a feature that adds a way to provoke opportunity attacks. However, knowing that I still like the idea of a feature like that, because there are ways of making your opportunity reaction better, like with sword mastery. On the other hand, while looking I noticed that in Unearthed Arcana there is a fighting style added called "tunnel fighter" that would make this feature pretty devastating in certain specific circumstances, so in terms of that I can see a point to removing the opportunity attack portion. But honestly, as a player I'd like to see this feature at this level gain some heftier combat advantages than Retaliation currently offers, because there are certain feats that could be acquired that would basically do the same job as this (like sentinel) that would compete for action economy anyways. I don't know maybe I want an entirely different feature for level 14? Maybe another ability score improvement? Sorry for going on and on here the more I think about it the more problems I have with the old and the new feature lol. --HalfHeartedAvenger (talk) 12:26, 1 May 2018 (MDT)--
- I'm digging the ASI. Rogues have a weird placement for one at level 10. You really think Retaliation is weak on the combat side of things? Not offended either. I'll change the wording, and if Blobby gets a chance to see the edits, he'll slap my hand if things aren't balanced. (he ALWAYS does lol)BigShotFancyMan (talk) 12:32, 1 May 2018 (MDT)
I'm glad you're not offended, I'm not trying to criticize your work and I'm sorry if it came off as that even in the slightest! I'm just concerned because retaliation feels kinda weak as just a reaction attack to me, when considering the sentinel perk(which if the dm is allowing feats, is a really great feat to pair it with) allows for a similar reaction attack when near an ally under attack. But I also see the issue with making it an opportunity attack, especially if it's generally frowned upon(and considering tunnel fighter removes the cost of reaction attacks at the cost of your bonus action, it has potential to provoke chain retaliation attacks). I would like to hear from bobby too and see what he thinks about it. Thank you for getting back to me so quick btw(like usual haha), I really appreciate it!--HalfHeartedAvenger (talk) 12:45, 1 May 2018 (MDT)
- I finally found the fighting style "Tunnel Fighter" and reviewing it I can see the potential for every time a behemoth is hit, it makes an opportunity attack IF it is in a defensive stance. Flavorful, it fits. But then I see this person using action to dodge every turn, and just sitting there not effecting the combat. -_-
- I'd like to include a caveat for the feature that removes this loophole, though I am skeptical of its acceptance since features don't typically have conditions excluding feats from affecting them. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 12:59, 1 May 2018 (MDT)
I think that is actually a great compromise, you could maybe add that the Behemoth must have attacked that turn to use this feature maybe? like "Starting at 14th level, when you take damage from a creature that is within 5ft of you, you can use your reaction to make an opportunity attack against the creature that just hit you. You are unable to do this if you used the Hide or Dodge action on your previous turn." I added the Hide action on top of the Dodge action because I feel like both of these actions would not allow for such powerful reactions in real combat. --HalfHeartedAvenger (talk) 13:30, 1 May 2018 (MDT)
Nice! Well that makes me feel better about it. If there's anything else to talk about I'd love to be part of the conversation! Also, I can't guarantee it will be a good show, but if you want to see the class in action I'll be using it in one of the two campaigns for my friend's d&d twitch channel. I won't drop the name here since this chat is for reviews and such but if you have an interest in that sort of thing I've put it on my user page--HalfHeartedAvenger (talk) 15:32, 1 May 2018 (MDT)
- yeah man, I’ll try to check it out. Would be pretty cool to check out the test play with it. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 16:31, 1 May 2018 (MDT)
- Thanks for the review HalfHeartedAvenger, good the see that the class is looking better. The changed Retaliation feature looks good and gl on the play test.--Blobby383b (talk) 10:41, 2 May 2018 (MDT)
- Looking through the class, the only thing that needs to be completed is the questions about creating a behemoth.--Blobby383b (talk) 11:21, 2 May 2018 (MDT)
Hey! I'm in the process of building this class right now and I think it looks really cool! I made a minor change to the starting equipment -> You had the Spell called Shield instead of the Armor type of shield as the starting equipment link for shield, so I changed it to the armor type of shield for the link so people don't get confused. Great job on the build! --LordDuncan talk) 12:36, 2 november 2018 (PDT)
- Hey LD! Thanks for doing that :) Please let us know how the class is and if you think anything should be different. Cheers! ~ BigShotFancyMan (talk) 19:37, 2 November 2018 (MDT)
King Kawaii Kun, what reason is there to give this a d12 hit die? No others who have play tested mentioned any need for it and I don't see it either. Care to share why you insist on having it? ~ BigShotFancyMan (talk) 07:05, 30 January 2019 (MST)
- Yeah I've still been playing this class for a long time now every other week and tho I do wish that I had more health I'm positive it's because of my specific campaign having an unorthodox and sometimes unrelenting DM. Otherwise I would consider the health to be a reasonable amount where it stands currently. I will say that I've had my DM have issues with the DC that the Wound effect can reach at times, but He gave my character an extra 1d12 sword at level 5 so that's on him xD. The mechanics for this class have otherwise been entirely fair and perhaps even a little under powered in terms of general dnd characters(though I'm not in the high levels yet and I'd think that the relative power of this character begins to creep up significantly after level 11). Oh and one thing I just noticed while looking over the Carnage Perk is that it doesn't clarify what sort of action it requires if any(this may have been in it at some point and was accidentally removed as can happen on this site). My suggestion, if the change is necessary, is either making it cost A bonus action or a free action since it's a shout(after second thought a regular action would be fine too because of the bonus action perk that comes with using carnage). I hope I'm not causing too much trouble by popping back in this discussion board haha--HalfHeartedAvenger (talk) 14:25, 13 February 2019 (MST)
[I am not sure this nerf] is necessary. Is there something in test play that could be insightful about the nature of this edit? 14:06, 25 September 2019 (MDT)