Talk:Machinamancer (5e Class)
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- New graft-needs detailed that you're getting grafts later, I put 2 & 2 together but at first I was confused.
- Nano reinforcement graft- make this level 3 and bring fighting style to level 2. also, this goes against the fundamentals of temporary hit points. I would remove everything after the first sentence. It is strong feature, no need to add anything else to it. (up to 5 free hit points every turn? I gotta remember that for my own homebrew!)
- Graft ex machina-what is the purpose outside of flavor? There seems to be no difference in this or ASI but flavor
- Keen Graft-maybe level 11 and 19-20? others might know better
Machinamancer Grafts: I feel this section should be detailed at the very beginning. Its like listing Spellcasting as a feature on the table and then having it in the description. I'll take a look at grafts another time. The subclasses are lack luster as well. The Techno Conversion is only one with substance. I get the other two but I think you could do more with these. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 10:59, 18 December 2017 (MST)
1) This should now be fixed. :D
2) I tried to keep it inline with the fighter. The nano reinforcement graft was meant to make up for a reduced hit point pool whilst also adding a unique mechanic. I have moved the levels but this is how I initially had them -> the class was not really meant to be about a fighting style which is why I changed it. Can you think of a level 2 trait to replace fighting style? I have also removed the stacking feature.
3) It is purely for flavour. I have an idea of how to improve this. Will change at the weekend.
4) Keen Graft is level 18, not level 11? Are you saying it should be earlier? It seemed a powerful effect to have at a lower level.
5) I'll have a look at spellcasting classes to see how it should be laid out.
As for them being lacklustre, Cyborg has an entire graft section to himself which is more than the sentient AI. Given how many grafts there are as well, the ability to take more of them adds far more combos. Androids can modify each existing graft and, given how many there are, there are plenty of available upgrades. It's just that I combined all of this under the Machinamancer Graft heading. Should I move the grafts/features under the subclass heading? Just in case you didn't spot it, Sentient AI has an entire section at the end of the document as well.
- I'll look closer but I have hard time imagining this class, with a fighting style, not in the fray. Even if you took away fighting style, the grafts at a glance just seem to make me wanna fight up close. Good deal removing the stacking feature. I noticed it in a lot of other work, you'll notice it just isn't common in 5e which maybe WotC will publish a mechanic like this some time but others I think will agree its best to avoid for now. Small little detail, all class benefits are "features" while benefits granted by races are "traits". ASI=ability score increase. Your idea of +1 and some minor benefit would be a way to make it interesting rather than an aesthetic. Would essentially be like picking a feat. I think 18-20 threat range is very strong. I was suggesting level 11 with a 19-20 threat range. Fighter subclass gets it at level 3 and is the only class to get 18-20 at higher level. I'm bias towards keeping 18-20 for fighter unless a good flavorful reason is made for a class to have 18-20. Also, you don't see this class fighting but improved critical threat range kind of encourages it (I know, ranged attacks benefit too). When you explain the subclasses like that it makes a little more sense. I hope I wasn't rude with the comment, I only meant to say most if not all other subclasses have substantially more meat to them. I hope to check out the grafts and subclasses better tomorrow. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 13:56, 18 December 2017 (MST)
1) The idea of the class was to jump into the fray, but not to be a damage dealer or rely on fighting styles. The idea was to jump in, control and tank whilst everyone else kills - so a fighting style doesn't really fit. The nano reinforcement was the idea of tanking, so I was thinking of some kind of control; perhaps hit and cause a random status ailment or something but a) no idea if this is OP and b) no idea how to make it thematic... Poison injectors? I'll have a think over the weekend and try and change this.
2) I edited my point above after googling ASI, so my apologies. I now have a perfect idea for this which I'll implement over the weekend and it will come with even more theme as android and cyborg will be able to do stuff with it.
3) Quick math on the nano-reinforcement without stacking. Machinamancer has on average 1 hp less than fighter per level and gains 5hp temp per turn. That's 5 levels per 1 attack, so to speak. Should hopefully be balanced-ish if I can take away their melee damage output - they are meant to rush in, but not kill. I have seen spell effects that cause stacking temp. HP and the idea behind this one stacking was to make it more viable at later levels. The fighter healing ability becomes lacklustre at higher levels and I didn't want the same thing to happen with this. However, I think I have a way of keeping this viable for other classes, i.e. Android can improve it. Will change it at the weekend.
4) Keen Graft is 19-20, it was never 18-20. I was gonna keep blink drive but it seemed too... ineffective on it's own. Keen Graft was a way to add a little something more whilst not being OP.
5) That's completely fine. :D I'm a professor of mathematics so my entire day job is writing something only to have people tell me it's useless and amending it for me. I'm used to it. :P My response to your comment comes from looking at the wizard (which I play almost exclusively... I have 5 wizard characters atm, hence the spells I've added to homebrew).
When looking at wizard, each school only has 4 abilities. The necromancer school (which my character Viktor took) lets him heal if he kills someone, summon slightly more powerful undead, become resistant to necrotic damage and have a chance at controlling another undead creature. That's four things and nothing really new. Compare that to sentient AI which gives you the processing core idea, letting you add an extra action per turn but causing a power overload with an entire codex of abilities, the cyborg which let's you graft extra arms onto yourself and comes with 13 new grafts that you wouldn't otherwise get (including the ability to use your blood to become invisible, add a tail for flanking damage, augment your brain for enhanced combat abilities, etc.) and android which, and I've counted, includes 39 new augments. That's a lot of choice compared to the school of necromancy... I didn't add more because it seems unbalanced when compared to wizard schools. The Champion subclass for fighter gets keen, ability to run better, a second fighting style and permanent regeneration. Whilst the regeneration is nice, that's still four things for a subclass... That being said, if you can think of a way to improve it or make it better, I'm all ears. I'm going to leave Sentient AI as it is (as it essentially adds spellcasting and comes with loads) and Cyborg (as it comes with an entire new graft section) but will improve Android as it seems a bit lacking.
Changes Coming Fighting Style Replacement, improved Graft Ex Machina, New Android upgrades
Apologies this has taken a long time to implement but a lot of stuff happened in real life. Everything should now be updated to be more flavourful! I have not included too many amendments to cyborg and android, despite your comments, because they still have far more going for them then any other subclass I can find in the player manual.
- Fighting Style is now Combat Augmentation
- Graft Ex Machina now makes sense - No ability score improvements but rather unique upgrades.
- Other various improvements (New android upgrades and one more cyborg upgrade)
--- This is now a complete class, can it be moved from incomplete? Other than balance changes, there is nothing to do?
- Hey Erias, this is currently marked as Request Review and Wording. I think a review is still necessary to polish up the features, and same thing on the wording. dandwiki uses American English; armour->armor, defence->defense. Other little things like this can be found at Help: Standards and Formatting. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 12:42, 28 May 2018 (MDT)
Ah ok, I'll leave it then. :) Thank you for the help getting it to this point!
- I’m not sure as I haven’t taken a full look at this in awhile. My session got canceled tonight so let me check this is for ya. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 10:15, 11 June 2018 (MDT)
- After looking through things, there is a way too much here to be summed in a post. There are certainly things of questionable balance but overall I think a lot has been done to ensure playability. There are still SRD links missing (Constitution). I'd say leave that on the page until those are cleared up.
- To answer your question, the wiki doesn't have completed classes per say unless you are considering a page without templates to be complete. This class faces a challenge since it has so many options, ensuring it is balanced will take time. Is your only concern getting the templates removed from the top of the page? BigShotFancyMan (talk) 20:51, 11 June 2018 (MDT)
Thanks for the fast reply! My concern is not getting the big things removed, it's more to do with balancing and playtesting. I told my friends about the class but they couldn't find it as it was under the incomplete section. This is doubly annoying because I have seen classes on homebrew without these things, without balancing and yet still counting as complete. Makes me wonder why those who ask for help are removed from the main bit, if you understand? The second is that if it's incomplete for reasons other than spelling, Id like to fix it. Whilst I can understand spelling and links are important, I'm more interested in whether the base idea is sound. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Erias (talk • contribs). Please sign your posts.
- You are not alone in your frustrations about pages without balance not being marked. It is most likely the wiki's biggest criticism. BUT! You, like everyone else, can help with this. If you see a page that isn't balanced, or has other errors, place the appropriate template on it AND explain the issues. It'd be a great help to the OP, the wiki, and everyone viewing the site.
- As for this page, it has a lot but I think it has the right direction. Between other things I am working on, this has my attention. I was very intrigued when I started creating this class and it was like, "man, I can't do whatever I want to do." So I am happy that when creating an android I was finding some sort of balance. I am going to continue with this. Playtesting I am not sure I can help with, sorry. HalfHeartedAvenger might be able to as I've seen him use the site for that stuff. Also, give your friends the link to the page so there isn't an issue finding it :) BigShotFancyMan (talk) 07:24, 15 June 2018 (MDT)
- PS: typing the tilde (~) four times will sign your posts and is highly encouraged so that the whole world can know who they're communicating with. So at the end of whatever you post, just throw four of them suckers on the end and a beautiful signature will appear BigShotFancyMan (talk) 07:24, 15 June 2018 (MDT)
Fast reply again! I will have a look at adding templates, but I'm not sure how to at the moment. Link now given to my friends but, just to clarify, I created this class right? By posting it on here, have I conceded my creation to others? You mention that you created the class? I had a read through and there are some things that I think are unbalanced, so I will be changing them. If you spot anything though, let me know and I'll change it all at the same time. Testing the end: Erias (talk) 08:24, 15 June 2018 (MDT)
- Indeed you have opened this up to the public. A conversation on Green Dragon's talk page here might help explain things. I barely understand it but educating others about it so not my forte.
- My comment about creating the class meant I was going through the process of creating the class to play as it. I was trying to find loopholes and ways to break features, and in that I found the class worth looking more into because I think it stands a good chance at being something fun to play. I wasn't meant as I am the one who started this page, sorry for that. Anyhow, nice signature! and I try to mention important changes before they're done. Minor things like you may have notice I try to clean up myself. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 08:44, 15 June 2018 (MDT)
Graft ex Machina
So I edited the wording today on Graft ex Machina. Same thoughts occurred to me as the other day when I was reviewing this - why not make these racial feats. You could keep the ASI option that all classes have, and going this route gives players the options to take these grafts. The grafts (feats) would need rewritten to not overlap with already provided 5e feats.
My other suggestion is too create more grafts and design more distinct benefits. Currently, players would gain almost all the options, it is just a matter of what order they want to get them. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 08:05, 18 June 2018 (MDT)
- By racial feats, do you mean those who go machinamancer can pick them or anyone who goes... for example... human can use them? I like the idea if you mean machinamancers can pick them as "bonus feats". I'd have to have a think about this though... No idea how to make them more flavourful. Erias (talk) 04:23, 19 June 2018 (MDT)
- I messed up. For whatever reason, I thought you could make them machinamancer feats and only that race could take them. Big problem, this is a class.
- I think you can design feats for this class specifically, similarly to how there are feats designed for spellcasters. ex:
- Living Circuitry: With each graft you apply to yourself, your body becomes more resilient to pain.
- Your Consitution score increases by 1.
- For each graft you have, your hit point maximum increases by 1.
- some other minor benefit.
- Living Circuitry: With each graft you apply to yourself, your body becomes more resilient to pain.
- The feats need to be new and flavorful but this is all just an option to work with what 5e already has (ASI or feat). If you'd like to keep what you have, then as time goes on more Graft ex Machina options can be added I hope. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 09:00, 19 June 2018 (MDT)
Techno Conversion: Sentient AI
Finally getting to this part of the class!
- Starting off I am confused by the energy and power relationship. With much re-reading I start to understand but a rewrite might be a good idea to help users understand the intent of this feature. I am also lost what rolling a 20 on save does, or why I would add half my spell level to my power level.
- Later I can use power for the sentient codex, which I'll figure it out but I think there's a better way to let players know what this is.
- Pick a trait and add to the codex. Very simple, but I think this is where the problem begins with my last comment, and I can now verbalize: what is a codex?
- Access to level 2 & 3 effects means what? I can choose them or I get to use them now? Access is a little vague.
- I think the last feature is pretty cool but until I understand the subclass better I'll wait to critique it.
It has taken a long time because of work commitments and I haven't checked for balance yet, but I have edited the wording to make things easier to understand (hopefully) and redone Graft Ex Machina! Will change it slightly when I have more time. Erias (talk) 16:18, 13 November 2018 (MST)
Whoever edited the page last has now made it really difficult to understand. The grafts section is now detailed under grafts, fair enough, but there are LOTS of them. It's meant to be like spell selection for a sorcerer... It's now beyond my ability to edit because I don't understand how all the coding works. Would someone be able to put weapon grafts under the weapon graft section, the cyborg grafts under the cyborg section, but then move all the other grafts to the bottom under a separate "graft" section? Once that's done, I'll sort out wording.
Also, I know that you need an ASI at level 4, etc... but if you read the graft ex machina, that option has been removed. If you look at the nature of the grafts, stacking stats in addition to the grafts will lead to OP combinations - it needs to be limited, so machinamancers cannot take the ASI...
- Alright. I moved the cyborg grafts down to where those are, and I separated the weapons, and other grafts, and put them in their appropriate sections, sorry about all that. I also added an image section, just be sure that when you add an image, you credit the artist appropriately. Lastly, your concern about the ASI is understandable, however, the preset table automatically fills in these sections. The solution to this would be, under the ASI header, to put something like "Your mechanical body can only be enhanced through grafts. You cannot take an ASI.", or something flavorful like that. Coaldstone (talk) 10:22, 25 November 2018 (MST)
- Alas, I am not skilled at images. It might be quicker to post on someone's user page for help too. Not sure how many would see this. ~ BigShotFancyMan (talk) 06:49, 26 November 2018 (MST)
- I removed the HTML comments so now your credit shows up, but the link you have to the picture doesn't work the 5e image format. Preferably you could find the image at a URL that ends in just jpg, or an image format like that. As of right now, with all the stuff after that, it doesn't work. Coaldstone (talk) 10:57, 26 November 2018 (MST)
Ok, so - The class should now be condensed and clarified AND all free actions have been removed. The only free action that appears is under Sentient AI and this can't be spammed - It is only to add an additional effect once per turn and is limited in usages. For example, at level 20, can deal an extra 1d6 damage on a target you've hit twice per long rest. Thanks to Coaldstone's editing, this should mean the class can now be moved out of incomplete?