Talk:Warlock Invocations and Boons (5e Class Feature)
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Could the effects of Primordial/Radiant/Thanotic/Hellish Blast be changed to " (damage type) or force damage" without making it overpowered? Especially with Hellish Blast, the number of creatures immune to fire would make that a downgrade from standard eldritch blast in many situations. Kormoran (talk) 10:54, 27 July 2016 (MDT)
Cleanup and Balance Checks
Ok, let me start by saying that the Warlock is my favorite class of 5e. From its janky spell casting, to sheer number of options available to the class that gives it the most customization of any other class or features outside of spellcasting as a whole. From being able to select your Patron, your Boon, and then all of the Invocations at your disposal, the modularity of the class allows it to fit the needs of most anyone. But with great versatility, comes great abuse. SO with that in mind I will try my best to objectively assess the invocations listed in this article. Disclaimer: I have added a handful of invocations and even a pact boon to the page. Next to them I will try and rattle off some reasoning and thoughts/concerns that go with them. I also hold the opinion that an invocation should not be limited by Patron (its not something that WotC has ever done in its official material or its UA. But we also have an official Deep Gnome only feat, soo there's that).
- Ameliorated Armor: One I added. Needs peer review, Designed to provide the next stage of expected armor similar to how the the pact of the Blade gets extra attack and Cha to damage. But WotC has shown a much higher value in PC's having defensive options, so I have the Prereq at 9th level because of the niche bonus to environmental hazards.
- Arcana Bestowments: Its a feature that does what an uncommon item can do, but available post level 10. I feel the level requirement may be a tad steep, but it is an invocation that can replace an attunement item.
- Arcane Servos: Added this and then later realized there was one very similar already in place. Tried to make it interesting enough to feel like power armor while still not breaking balance. It does feel a tad loaded to me, so if enough people feel that its too much, I'll try to slim it up.
- Arm Servos: Kinda glad I already posted one up, because holy cow this one is intense. Only level 5 (and a patron) and the user gets to add their Cha to not only their Unarmed attack rolls but their damage and grapple checks. And lets not forget that this thing is also handing out +1 Strength and bumping unarmed strikes up to d4's. This feels like a cherry picked Tavern Brawler feat. I think that this really needs to be overhauled or just flat removed.
- Book of High Arcanum: Its neat, falls in line with the usual "forbidden magic" thing that Tome-locks get to do. I do recommend that it still require the users Book of Shadows to be on their person still.
- Deceive Magic Item: Added this one, but I feel it may be too powerful in one way or another. May just make a really sweet 15th level invocation.
- Draconic Summon: This one is neat, oddly limited, but neat. I like the modified familiar invocation idea, specific variants and such. However the damage from this feature is too high for my liking for a feature that is available at 2nd level and scales. I recommend removing 1d6 of damage or the Cha to damage (also odd that its there). With that it leaves room for it to be a 15ft cone or 30ft line, but i may just be breaking things. I'll wait for a second opinion.
- Dual Pact Boon: Its something that was honestly missing. I get why the wand boon is here, kinda nifty.
- Eldritch Mobility: Feels a tad lack luster, but I can see why someone would grab this.
- Elemental Strike: Most times I see acid damage associated with Earth and elemental damage. Other than that, this is in line with Lifedrinker.
- Energy Barrier: Made this one, set it so it is acquired 2 levels after the Immortal mystic gets their same feature. Also set the caveat to require the armor to be present to gain the benefits.
- Ferocious Wand: ummm, not sure about this one, the +1 extra to Hit and saves is with spells is already something no other class can do. The expanded crit range starts pushing this towards feat territory IMO. But I will not make changes until I can work out a reasonable solution.
- Focused Servos: Another patron limited invocation. Worded odd but I get the intent. The bonuses to hit and damage just feels like MOAR daka, not really something that adds depth to the warlock. Not always a bad thing.
- Hellish Blast: Simple damage switch. Wish it said "you may". Only issue is how it might interact with the Draconic Sorcerer's 6th level feature. Was honestly hoping for a brimestone blast attempt, but simple + clean is probably safer.
- Leg Servos: More Gearmind. Advantage on rolls make to resist specific scenarios. Adv for Con saves of 'running', probably best worded to use 'forced march' so it can relate to the PHB and pre laid terminology. Movespeed bump and x2 carry. This a bunch in this, but it is a bunch of little things and then +10 movespeed.
- Lightbearer: Yep all clear here.
- Lithic Resilience + Oakflesh: Both of these do a similar thing and follow the standard pattern. I do think Lithic Resilience could have the prereq be reduced to 7th level to match the Sculptor of Flesh invocation.
- Neurotic Servos: Gearmind. Name's a bit odd, servos (motion items, in your head?) Either way, the invocation is 1/2 a feat, which i guess is the estimated value of an invocation. But it also is very strange because it gives proficiency with Wisdom saves...Something the Warlock already has. Not sure where this is going. But I would suggest maybe something to either buff wisdom saves, or something to reroll against mental assault. Overall this needs an overhaul or deletion.
- Otherworldly Physic: Uh, no. At 13th level the warlock would have more 7th level spell casts available than every other class. As it stands I would understand if this allowed you to sub out your 7th Level Mystic Arcanum spell for Reverse Gravity. I recommend the creator take a look at the Book of High Arcanum invocation above and see where that authors design process was.
- Pact Shield: This one feels a bit behind the curve. But I can't tell whether or not the 1 to AC and saves is a +1 or replaces the shields +2 to AC. Gonna retool it a smidge i guess, see where it goes. I will suggest that this allow the user to Bond a weapon AND a shield and pull either or both weapon + shield as an action. It might help provide gap coverage for games without multi-classing available.
- Primordial Blast: Still doesn't say "you may"Same comment about earth as from my comments on Elemental Strike invocation. Also like to add that I really like that the EB specifically says that the modified EB overcomes the Resistance, but not that specific damage type.
- Primordial Summon: Normally Chain-Lock familiars are CR 1/4 or lower. But with the limitation of the mephits summoning ability, innate casting, and breath weapon, I feel the creature now functions reasonably as a familiar.
- Radiant Blast: No "you may". Other than that, this has the very real threat of allowing the Undying Light patron to double up on Cha to EB damage with AB. Seemingly simple damage type changes can cause big problems with pre-existing features. Especially since it specifically calls out the Undying Light as one of the allowable patrons.
- Thanotic Blast: Same "you may" complaint, not a real valid one though. Same functionality as other EB damage swap invocations.
- Shroud of the Ancients: Pretty straightforward in terms of bonuses to AC and Saves. I recommend the last part give prof in Arcana, and Expertise if you are already proficient.
- Just took a look through the Gearmind patron and realized that me and the author had similar ideas about armor that can be summoned. I went the route of a pact boon and theirs was tied to the patrons 1st level feature. Their are 308 "complete" archetypes on this site ATM, so just going to say whoops.--Gr7mm Bobb (talk) 20:19, 23 January 2017 (MST)
- Oof, my bad. I must have been confused it with cleric's Death Domain. --WeirdoWhoever (talk) 04:32, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
While granting a few spells is well within the scope of an invocation, those spells shouldn't be 7th or 9th level spells that you can cast without using a spell slot. SirSprinkles (talk) 21:55, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
What would you reccomend? I could make them require a spell slot, the reason they aren't Mystic Arcanum options is because you need to use up 3 other Invocations to get them. -AngelsAndAarakocra
Hello, AngelsAndAarakocra - I just checked the invocations and the Keyblade patron, and I'm afraid I agree with Gr7mm Bobb when he said "[...] to enforce a video games high pulp over-ther-top-explosion-fest" on the Patron's talk page.
I have never played Kingdom Hearts myself, nor am I a big fan of it (although I do enjoy Shin Megami Tensei and Persona franchise) but I am confident with one thing: JRPG and D&D poorly mix. The basic philosophy is so entirely different that you might need to reconsider them.
Personally, I suggest removing all invocations that grants spellcasting at all, and add some of the spells into the Patron-exclusive spell list. I'll be writing in detail on the Patron's talk page. --WeirdoWhoever (talk) 07:08, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
- I'm gonna be honest with you, I was not expecting to get quoted quite like that.--Gr7mm Bobb (talk) 15:13, 23 April 2019 (MDT)
Ok, so 3rd level at will Misty Step was most definitely busted. However the change to make it consume a warlock spell slot was a solid nerf to the warlock class over all since Misty Step is on their spell list. I changed the prerequisite to match another at-will 2nd level spell invocation, Master of Myriad Forms. Slot consuming spells from invocations are usually reserved for spells that would be problematic if allowed to be used to every single short rest. Spells like Bestow Curse, Confusion, Conjure Elemental, and Polymorph to name a few.--Gr7mm Bobb (talk) 13:43, 3 August 2018 (MDT)
- Thanks for that, I would have to agree that the current version is much better balance wise(and oops on me for forgetting to check the warlock's spell list).--Blobby383b (talk) 14:02, 3 August 2018 (MDT)
- Eldritch Gravity should be changed. It is literally combining Grasp of Hadar (from XGTE) and Repelling Blast with no drawbacks whatsoever.
- Martial Prowess is a super cool idea (especially for Pact of the Blade warlocks), but it doesn't need the prerequisite of being 2nd level, since that's when you get invocations anyway.
- Quickened Blast sounds great, but at 20th level, who would want to spend a 5th level slot to fire 4 more eldritch blasts? Maybe make it so it lets you cast eldritch blast a number of times equal to half the spell slots level (rounded down) as a bonus action. That might help.
- I'm pretty sure that when Elementalism mentions "energy damage" they are referring to force damage.
- If I have the invocation Pact Shield and choose to bind a magical shield, what happens if I shatter it? Is the magic shield gone forever or am I able to resummon it later?
- Call Upon Shadows is SUPER overpowered, especially with Devil's Sight. Seriously, at-will darkness? It might be balanced if it required being 15th level or higher, but that's still stretching it.
Talk to people about changes to pre-existing content.
Ok, so I went through and fixed a bunch of really overpowered edits to some content I've added to this page. As it stands I ask that the discussion page here be properly utilized to communicate constructively with one another. Grammatical edits are awesome and I always appreciate those, but anything that changes the balance of the material in the related page should be talked about. I did like the minor buff to Arcane jets, so that stays.
Speaking of things to talks about, I really like the idea behind Arcane collector, it just needs a bit of fine tuning to keep the warlock using it from combining a bunch of effects into an "uber" doom weapon/armor set. If it's only copying the properties of one item, what is the actual benefit of using this instead of turning the item into your pact weapon/armor? Things that need to be covered:
- What happens when the warlock dies?
- What does it mean by "sacrificed" when before it was just being magically stowed in the weapon/armor. Is it destroyed/consumed or just put in a magical box to be xeroxed by the warlocks weapon/armor.
- Cannot be used on an Artifact.
- The absorbed properties can't come from an unwilling sentient item. Willing = full transference.
- Properties from 1 item at a time can be applied to pact weapon/armor at the end of a short rest.
- Cannot stack item properties, this is just reiterating that multiple magic items in one is very unbalancing.
Answer from JokerKing(ReiCoringa) 25 April 2019.
- I think some of the pacts should be buffed because the original pacts are way to better, the Pact of the Aegis should give some bonus, right now it just give the player a cool armor and thats it, the pact also should follow the same logic of the Pact of the Blade, we shouldn't put a specific armor type to the player, they need to choose the armor type, and like the Pact of the blade always have proeficiency with it.
- Following that change i think the Ameliorated Armor should now give the player a bonus to their AC, i think +2 would be fair, and without level prerequisite to give the player a chance to become a little tankier at low levels.
- Arcane Servos shouldn't transform your armor into a weapon, maybe instead it mage your unarmed attack magical with the purpose to ignore resistances and immunity.
- Energy Barrier is too weak at mid/late game, it should give more, if you dont like it to be 2 times the charisma modifier MAYBE it would be better if it used the warlock level.
- Allowing to the Pact of the Aegis and the blade to synchronize with sentient itens(IF THEY ALLOW IT) wouldnt be OP, it would maybe make the PC more unique with a talking armor saying thinks on their head, but i also think that artifacts wouldn't be allowed i just dont put that time because i would make changes yet.
- Making the Arcane collector clear:
1)It would make your Pact Weapon/Armor absorb the effects from every item (artifacts not included, if it is a sentient item it need to have the permission of the item, and if absorbed the mind of the sentient item will be always the talking in the mind of the warlock, the DM could even create a villain which absorbed a lot of sentient items and become insane) but i wouldn't make everything work together, each magical item would a "bonus set" and you can change your "bonus set" with a bonus action. 2)When you absorb a magical item you can if you want change the type(appearance) of your weapon/armor to the type of any weapon/amor that you absorb with a bonus action( changing between a long sword and a long bow would be possible with just a bonus action, and it wouldn't the "bonus set" that is selected) 3)When i say "sacrificed" i mean that it wouldn't be possible to revert the absorption. 4)If the warlock dies it will drop a weapon/armor with the actual "bonus set" but anyone( except a warlock with this invocation and right pact) would be able to change the type of the weapon/armor and the "bonus set".
- You bring up a fair point about the pact of the Aegis. I like the idea of summoning light/med/heavy versions of the pact armor. That is a really neat idea. The main boon of the Aegis as a pact boon though is its already significant AC bonus when compared to other warlocks. The numbers work out for now because of how modular the ability is by nature. By keeping the base numbers tame and reasonable we allow for the DM to dictate how high a warlock with this boon can get their AC beyond that baseline. Being able to turn any armor into your pact armor and using the better of the bonded armor's AC or the pact armors AC itself is a big deal and shouldn't be overlooked. However, as for sentient items and artifacts, I will be following the Pact of the Blade's example and not allow the character to bond them for the Aegis either.
- Adding a 11+Dex form to the base pact shouldn't unbalance things any. And it adds options for creativity as well, so I'm totally on board with doing that. (Changes have been made accordingly)
- Ameliorated Armor giving a flat bonus just doesn't sit well with me, but it does have the added boon of not being good if the character already has +2 armor. So the nerf to buff stacking is cool, but really not needed. So for now, I'm just going to stick with it being an upgrade to the base forms from the pact armor itself.
- Arcane Servos has been adjusted accordingly. Small buff + clarity changes have been made.
- I agree that Energy Barrier is weak when the game leaves the level 9-11 range and I think I have a solution. Changing the formula to Prof + Cha mod should help reign in the potential for early level abuse AND allow it to scale into the late game a lot more nicely. The x2 made me nervous because of how much damage can get mitigated with temp HP that refresh every round. Granted, this proposed change may slide things a bit too far along the scale towards broken.
- Note the use of the word 'create' and 'summon' are used interchangeably for the Pact of the Aegis boon and associated invocations.
- Couple of things regarding Arcane collector:
- Magic item deletion shouldn't be a thing for this sort of feature. And since its an invocation, what happens to the item when the character no longer has the invocation is also important. Same can be said for what happens when the character dies or bonds with a different item.
- 'Item deletion' abilities make me super nervous. Hard combining items like that seems like a very narrow design window to work from and offers very little in terms of options for the story and mechanics themselves. Cramming the items into the pact item is cool, but the bond being permanent is most certainly not chill.
- The ability to bond to sentient items was something that didn't sit well with me. Since it is a late level invocation, it seems ok for now. You know, so long as the 'item deletion'/assimilation function is made to suit 5e's design a bit more.
- A long rest to swap between effects is way too long, but a bonus action is way too short. I think a nice mid ground between the two would be a minute long ritual. That or put a hard limit on the number of changes per rest (like 2 or something). Where they pick which effects to have every time they finish a rest, but then they can only swap effects out as an action twice before they are stuck and have to rest again.
- There needs to be a limit on the items that can be stored. I'm thinking Cha mod + 1 (min 2).
- Ok, that's all i've got for now. Hopefully this helps sort through things and whatnot.--Gr7mm Bobb (talk) 14:57, 26 April 2019 (MDT)
Servos and Unarmed Strikes
So I love the add to Arcane servos to include unarmed strikes. I recognize it as unnecessary since unarmed strikes are still weapon attacks, but with the confusion over the PHB errata and such, most forget to consult the Sage advice Q&A to find the proper response. So adding in unarmed for stickler GM's is fine. Just don't forget that unarmed attacks are still Weapon Attacks because they are not Spell Attacks and are subjected to all of the boons and banes that come with weapon based attacks, like rage, smite, etc.--Gr7mm Bobb (talk) 16:30, 13 May 2019 (MDT)
More Cantrip Invocations
So I decided to make a few invocations for other cantrips, then before I knew it I'd done one for every cantrip, I'll probably add a few but I hope people enjoy them, I've always disliked that Warlocks are essentially Locked into using Eldritch Blast, and even though is a great spell, I wanted to give others some more variety. --Moth (talk) 7:52, 12 June 2019 (EST)