Talk:Valignar (5e Race)

"This page is of questionable balance. Reason: The wordings in the traits do not have very good mechanical grounding. Molten navigator doesn't really describe the conditions in which it can be used, other than maybe lava. It also has a confusing clause about light emission, which could use some defining or link to a variant rule if that is being used. Immunity to fire is a centerpiece kind of trait, which is fine if the other traits are less powerful. The heat and cold exhaustion are not defined as they should be, which would probably be in relation to chapter 5 of the DMG regarding environments (I think). Stonescales is also very powerful, about the same as a higher minimum unarmored defense trait (which, along with the fire immunity, uses a lot of the race balance budget). The natural adaptations are poorly worded and would benefit adhering to official unarmed strike or natural weapon language."

AJ Luís, page creator here!

I am unsure when or by whom this came about but I would like some assistance with some resources and sample texts that can help me better conform to the letter of the balancing question, addressing it properly, so that I can avoid problems with balancing and as it pertains to the aforementioned passage, wording, in the future; on which note, I'd like to start off with a few clarifications, as it pertains to the intent behind the features mentioned.

• The Molten Navigator feature is intended as a two-fold feature that guarantees a swimming speed while under lava, liquified rocks, and/or molten minerals that have a certain buoyancy, but not water. Since such liquid materials would normally do incredulous amounts of fire damage, and thus impose heavy amounts of heat exhaustion and given the true nature of this race, it simply doesn't make sense for them to simply not be able to navigate molten surfaces, and thus the immunity to fire damage and a swim speed are both absolute requirements for this race, as is some kind of immunity or advantage on saving throws against heat exhaustion - furthermore, to balance things out in an equally realistic manner, I have given them a vulnerability to cold damage and to the effects of exhaustion from the cold and cold weather climates and conditions, as a result. Since these terms, apparently, leave room for ambiguity though, I would like to ask the reviewer, both for clarity, and for forgiveness, with any lack of familiarity on my part, as the implicit nature of the exhaustion condition leaves a margin of error that makes little to no sense for this particular race, and thus needed a separation between its duplicitious "heat" and "cold" clauses.
• The Stoneskin feature is intended to show their resiliency against the forces of nature, in the Forge, and thus showcase their physical adaptations against its other inhabitants (mainly, of infernal and/or abyssal heritage and descent); consequently, the Stoneskin feature is perfectly intended to be made adaptable to shields and whatever armor they may be wearing or whatever class feature they may have, which is something I wanted to be a deliberate racial feature, but obviously, if it's too much, I can shrink it down at its base value as needed, from a scale of 10 to 8 - which is not at all something that conforms with certain class features, but can certainly be done if it answers the balancing question. Otherwise, I have attempted to use problem solving text to the best of my ability, which are terms with which the reviewer of this page may or may not be familiar, as it pertains to a different game entirely; in which case, "problem solving text" refers to the reader's ability to discern the feature's intent, using the language contained therewithin: in this case, 5e, and thus may require the reviewer's assistance with properly doing so.
• The remaining features are simply Lizardfolk features with greater enhancements, both for in-canon and meta-gaming related reasons, to make said features more useful, and relevant to their presumed background, in some way originating from the Forge; that said, their ties to this place also revokes them of their Cunning Artisan feature, since such a feature would only be relevant in jungles and rainforests, from whence this homebrew race clearly does not originate.

• As for the flying speed, I will be removing it outright, to better conform with the image and likeness of the intent behind this race, whilst also addressing the balancing issue in an appropriate manner.

The reasoning for these feature additions and omissions, predictably, centers around the Forge, which in turn is intended not to refer to a deity, but a lower circle of Hell that has arisen to the surface - preferably in the ancient past, at the same time as Hell, or its in-universe equivalent, was founded by the Powers that be. In summary, Draconians, otherwise known as Infernal Lizardfolk, are Lizardfolk who, instead of having adapted to a certain kind of natural environment, have adapted to this place in Hell, where they have acquired some unique traits, both physical and mental, better suited for their given place of origin.

Please let me know if there are any other ways I can make the other aforementioned changes more conducive to the language of 5e, so as to provide the appropriate clarifying language, for its intended purposes and uses! --—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ajluis101 (talk • contribs) . Please sign your posts!

Hello! I am not the person who placed the template on this page, but I couldn't help but notice its current state. While I will leave room for the template-adder to reply, I do have some insights that may be helpful. It appears you have created a flavorful and interesting race, then given them mechanical traits that logically fit with what you think the race should be capable of. Unfortunately when designing a playable race, sometimes sacrifices in verisimilitude must be made for the sake of game balance. When comparing this race and its abilities to first-party races, it is distinctly more powerful than most if not all first-party races. As mentioned in the maintenance template, the standout feature of the draconian is its fire immunity. This eats up a lot of the race's balance "budget" and can be compared to the oft-contentious first party Yuan-Ti Pureblood race, as that race also grants immunity to a common damage type. The damage immunity alongside the busted unarmored defense (which is stronger than a barbarian's unarmored defense) eats up the remainder of the budget. Otherwise, there are also some weirdities in wording that don't really fully understand certain mechanics and terms of D&D 5e (vulnerability only occurs with damage types, you can't be "vulnerable to cold environments". Instead, you'd "have disadvantage on saving throws made against the effects of extreme cold", "extreme cold" being an actual environmental hazard listed in the DMG).

For the future, you might want to take a look at these pages (Help:Precedent, the 5e Race Design Guide, and Help:Balance), with particular attention to the Racial Traits and Counterbalancing sections. Meanwhile, I'm going to make some changes to the page to potentially address some of the issues. Changes which you are free to revert if you don't like, although I hope you'll see why I've made those changes first. --ZarHakkar (talk) 21:17, 24 March 2024 (MDT)

Thank you for fixing my page, and making the appropriate changes! I would have done them myself, if prompted, but I nevertheless am thankful for your clarifications. Contrary to the echo chamber of popular expectation, I did indeed intend some of the more Optionally "off-balanced" things for perfectly justifiable reasons that are, in fact, based on in-canon existing precedent, and not homebrew, though technically not "original only", per se, given they are based off of Lizardfolk, and are adapted to the Infernal/Abyssal and Underdark planes of existence. That said, the Forge is its own thing, but I stand by some of my original takes, whilst I also accept some added limitations.

Consequently, instead of being able to hold their breath, and instead of only being able to swim in lava and other molten liquids, they now have a swimming speed by default, but can only breathe lava and molten liquids "as if they were normal air" - not water; specifically, I wanted this feature the particular way I did (though again, I am now working in compliance with the desired language of said feature), because naturally, any hellish domain isn't normally going to have heated water for a base - it's going to have lava, and since Lizardfolk traditionally are capable of navigating water, I wanted for Draconians (Infernal Lizardfolk) to be able to navigate lava and molten liquids, as if they were navigating water, and thus have since added an explanation for this feature, clarifying that.

Just in case the reasoning absolutely needs to be stated(!!!), I would like for anyone who chooses to edit or flag this page further, to first ask theirself: exactly how much fire damage does lava and molten liquids do?? Does this change or flagging make sense, within the context of an Infernal Lizardfolk, adapted to life within a minor Infernal plane?

That out of the way, I'm hoping that the "negative points" originally applied to said feature, are nevertheless sufficient; I have also, as originally promised, lowered the base Armor Class of the Stoneskin (now "Stoneskin Resiliency") feature from 10 down to 8, for balancing purposes, but as with the former, retain the original added ability score modifiers, once again for an important but in this case, unrelated reason: other infernal/abyssal creatures. Similar to the aforecited Yuan-Ti, Draconians (Infernal Lizardfolk) have had to adapt to some pretty harsh living conditions within the Forge, and thus have had to grow stronger, both physically and mentally to match their given place of origin.

As such, and so as to make it as conducive with versatility as possible, without being "overpowered", I have given it, in my opinion, the appropriate and necessary revisions, as the feature's Armor Class can no longer exceed 20, even when using a shield. That said, however, again, I do not wish to overstep, but in the spirit of allowing players to play as whatever class their heart desires for this race, I have included within the permissions of the Stoneskin Resiliency feature, to compare it not only with the Armor Class of certain armors, but also certain class features, for the highest AC possible - that way, the racial and class features do not overlap, and thus do not conflict. Though I am certain, there is a ruling specifically for such an instance, I wanted it specifically to be clarified, herewithin.

Lastly, I have once more added innate flight to this race, but given it the appropriate counterbalance of not being able to be used with medium or ::heavy armor. As controversial as I am sure this decision will inevitably be, both internally (within my own mind) and externally (with other people), there is nevertheless a perfectly valid and justified reason for this also: other winged infernal creatures within the Forge.

I sincerely hope, once more, these changes (once again, I give thanks to the person, to whom this formal reply is being given, for making some of these edits - though again, I would have made them myself, if asked or prompted to do so) are nevertheless appropriate, and conform justly to the guidelines, for which they were equally justly flagged for "balancing" issues. I recognize any future "imbalancing" issues and questions this may prompt, but again, I promise, there are perfectly valid and explainable reasons for them that are based purely within in-canon (and not "homebrew") sources, save for the Forge not being a "real" place - which, in and of itself, is contained first, herewithin.

P.S., I am still learning these things, so I sincerely hope my signage is appropriate!

P.S.S., Again, with due respect and gratitude to the person who originally "fixed" my page, respectfully, you made a mistake, which I have since corrected: to the best of my ability, this homebrew race now has the Bite and Hungry Jaws features a Lizardfolk normally has, with some key minor revisions, separate from the natural weapons feature. --Ajluis101 (talk) 09:36, 25 March 2024 (MDT)

Your signature is fine. You can type "--~~~~" or hit the button labelled "signature and timestamp" in the top-left of the editing window to quickly sign a post if you didn't know that already. Signatures always go at the end of posts, regardless of extra content you might add in edits after the fact. Replies typically occur in indentation levels created by amounts of colons (:).

Here's the thing. When I first started making content on DanDwiki 6-7 years ago, the first thing I made were homebrew races. And they were busted. I of course didn't see them as such, but another user came along and did what I'm doing right now. And I defended my created pages with refutations and justifications and insistences that all of these design decisions were deliberate and that I knew what I was doing. Spoiler, I did not know what I was doing, and it took me at least a year to realize that. Now, that realization is a hard thing to rush, so the few other users on here who bother with placing templates usually just do so to point out the problem points and move on. In this case though, I'm going to try to recall and reflect on my previous experiences as a new user to do things a bit differently.

First of all, I'm going to ask you: What is your primary priority for the draconian? Is it

...to create an interesting, cool, and powerful set of denizens for a specific environment?

...to create a new race of creatures with a unique and distinct identity intended for players to use?

...to create a variation of the lizardfolk race?

Yes, these might each be valid priorities, but what matters most is which one is most important. You understandably seem to express frustration at "popular expectation" here on DanDwiki, but I assure you there is actually very few limits on the homebrew content allowed here if you know how to properly work within the site and system. For example, if your priority is a., to create these powerful, stone-scaled magma-diving lizard-men that are perfectly at home in the hellish environment of the Forge, you would be better off creating a creature statblock instead of a race. If your priority is b., to create a unique race of heat-adapted, stone-scaled reptilian humanoids that can be slotted into a game alongside any other playable race without causing major issues, then, yes, this should result in the creation of a race page. However, if your priority is c., that the identity of this race revolves predominately around being a variation of lizardfolk native to a fiery environment with a few traits exchanged for others, then you would be better off creating a racial variant instead.

Next, I'm going to go through each of the changes I made mentioned previously and attempt to explain why I made them. Overall, I was operating under the assumption that your priority was b. and that this is in fact intended to be a properly-designed 5e race page, and was treating it as such. The What and Why of what that entails is gone into in great depth in the 5e Race Design Guide (for those who actually read it), but, in a nutshell, the ultimate goal of any homebrew content (including races) should be "If this content is placed into a game, does it have a net positive effect on the experience of the game?" Things like Balance and consistent, concise wording are merely some of the means to this end. This idea should be kept in mind and mentally returned to after each point.

Heat & Pressure turned into Adapted to Fire

As stated before and will likely be stated again, fire immunity is a very strong trait, and that is a simplification. Any permanent immunity to a common damage type is not just strong, but can also be unfun. As explained in this stackexchange answer, immunities render what would otherwise be an engaging challenge for a player trivial. As also explained, counterbalancing by having a vulnerability to another damage type is also unfun because it can quickly lead to player death.

To address these concerns, I downgraded the immunity to resistance (still a strong trait, but far more acceptable). I also removed the cold vulnerability, but kept the susceptibility to cold environments as it is far less potentially lethal but provides a sensible drawback that enhances and supports the flavor of the race.

Stonescales converted into Natural Armor

Stonescales is just needlessly complicated for what amounts to a feature that is basically completely fine as Natural Armor. The only other race that uses a unique method of armor calculation is warforged, which simply has a +1 to AC and can integrate any one set of armor into their bodies over a rest. Draconians have stone scales. Their scales are harder than regular scales (such as that of a lizardfolk). Therefore they have 14 + Dex as their AC.

As a homebrew designer for 5e, you should design things as simply and elegantly as possible, even if that means trimming some fat and corners here and there. Ease and simplicity are the spirit of the system (even if it sometimes annoys people like myself), and it's generally not fun to have to look through multiple long paragraphs of uniquely-named traits every time you need to check or recalculate what determines your AC (an often used value).

Natural Adaptations into Natural Weapons

This is another case of just favoring simplicity. Both natural weapons deal 1d6 + Str damage, there isn't much need to clarify them separately and it cuts down greatly on reading time. The finesse property on the claws simply doesn't have any justification, not even tabaxi (the agile, feline race) get to use Dexterity for their claw attacks. Monks (who have the justification of martial arts training) are the only case of a player being able to use Dexterity for their unarmed strikes.

Removal of Hungry Jaws

Removing this trait was not in err as you so assumed. I had two reasons for doing so. The first is because of the so-called "balance budget" already being eaten into by the climbing speed, fire resistance, and natural armor, and the second is because, in accordance with priority b., I believe that this race is stronger thematically and in identity if it is wholly distinct from lizardfolk. Looking at what makes this race cool, the core identity of this race (They're stone-scaled lizard people that can dive in magma), hungry jaws is arguably an unnecessary trait.

Conversion of Molten Navigator to Magma Diver feat

The existence of molten navigator is entirely contingent upon the race's fire immunity, but is also (to me) the coolest part of this race and the reason why I like it enough to even bother typing all of this out. However, fire immunity (at least right at level 1), is far too unfun. Therefore, I did what could be called a classic DanDwiki balancing trick and turned the feature into a feat specifically for this race, meaning the earliest you can get access to this ability (and the fire immunity) is level 4. Some would still argue that this is still far too soon, but it at least mitigates the issue of having it right off the bat.

Additionally, I removed the ability to breathe in lava for two reasons. The first (minor) reason is that it's kind of nonsensical. I don't care how much evolving you went through as an organic creature, you're not going to a. survive with lava inside your body and b. extract any breathable compounds from it. The second (major) reason is that it's far more interesting gameplay-wise for them to not be able to survive indefinitely in lava and instead have to rely on their breath-holding capacity, sort of like an extreme version of the real-life Bajau sea divers. The time limit (despite being long) and limited sight adds tension to the use of this ability while preventing cheese strats like resting in lava.

(Aside) Flight Speed

The flight speed wasn't on the page when I edited it, but now that it is I have some things to say about that. Earlier I mentioned a race contentious for having poison immunity, the yuan-ti pureblood. Here's another contentious race: the aarakocra, bird people native to the Elemental Plane of Air. Aaracokra get two features: 1d6 slashing talons and the ability to cast gust of wind once per long rest at 3rd level. Why do they get so little? Because they have flight.

What's the problem with flight? You can find threads and posts and videos all over the internet going over the many consequences of allowing pre-level-5 flight, but suffice to say, it's a similar situation to a common damage immunity— it trivializes normal encounters for levels 1-4, can potentially be unfair to other non-flying PCs, and forces the DM to think far harder about scenarios to challenge the party than they would have to otherwise. Plus, getting knocked out of the air by an arrow, spell, or thrown boulder and going splat instadead from fall damage isn't typically fun for players, even though they really should have considered the risk of that happening.

That's just flight in general. Here's the specific issues with how it pertains to the race: 1. The armor restriction is pointless because of Stonescales, and 2. It really just comes out of nowhere. Phoenix wings on a lizard-person? Just ask your DM to let you play a straight-up dragon at this point. They can't be harmed by fire, they can swim in lava, they can climb, they can fly, they have claws and a bite attack, what can't they do at this point besides breathe a cone of fire?

...

Draconian (Infernal Lizardfolk) as it is now, a race page, is thematically and mechanically overloaded (verging into duelsoulblade shadow vampelf territory with the phoenix wings), and falls outside the acceptable design space of D&D 5e. Again, leaving the design space of 5e is fine on the wiki (I should know, it's my specialty), but only as long as it is done in a deliberate and knowledgeable matter. As is said among many artists, "You have to learn the rules well before you can achieve greatness by breaking them."

To the end of learning, the best way to do that is not to try to make wholly new content, but to constantly refer to existing content in the game. This can be done naturally as part of the balancing process, especially with feats and spells. There are always a slew of comparisons to make, questions to ask, and design decisions to be understood (or not, because WotC is just dumb sometimes). For example, a question you could have asked when creating the features for draconian is "Assuming this was allowed in a game, what reason is there for anyone to play a dragonborn over this race?" It's quite an important question, because rendering an entire first-party race nearly entirely non-viable is a pretty big consequence.

Here's an idea, and potentially a fourth priority. All this talk about the draconian's existence being justified by the Forge, this molten hellscape that's neither in the Nine Hells nor the Abyss and yet harbors fiendish creatures, but the only lens we have into it is solely this race page. Perhaps you could change that? There's far more to what's on DanDwiki than just homebrew races, after all, even though that's what all new people gravitate towards.

Apologies if any of this comes off as rude, especially towards the end. I've been typing for multiple hours now and its gotten me a bit cranky. I do sincerely hope you can find to appreciate what I've written here though, as it's far better guidance than what I received when I first started out. In the same vein, please don't expend energy trying to refute any of the points I made. I'm tired, and yeah I probably made some mistakes here and there while writing and formulating all this, but I'm done and there's nothing to be gained from it.

P.S. Kindly refrain from making all of your edits minor edits. That designation is for for things like fixing typos. --ZarHakkar (talk) 23:03, 25 March 2024 (MDT)

"Needs Admin"

Hi, I was the one that was putting the needsbalance on. Zar has been helping give pointers to meticulously explain the faults in your edits more than I have, and so far it seems to have fallen on deaf ears. I see that you have also slapped a bunch of delete templates on other pages.

• Wording for a trait can affect its balance, wouldn't you say? In which case, should I use both tags then?
• Per Zar's notes above, just because you inject a long spiel about a race and their flavored upbringing, doesn't make it okay to break the usual balance of the game. This race is grossly over the power range of most (if not all) official racial options.
• I'm also confused how it comes off as malicious when I actually explained the reasoning behind why the traits are overpowered or the wording was off?
  • Multiple natural weapons is an issue we had dealt with on a now-userpage-only page (archosauria, which is now deleted off mainspace).
  • The immunity to fire and flying have been addressed above in Zar's text.
  • I don't see that I ever claimed stoneskin "doubles the AC"? It uses two scores and a lower base, unless you misunderstood that to mean doubled? I also didn't claim this in my initial tag.
  • The hungry jaws wording is specifically mentioned in my tag to do with upwards vs up to. If you refer to the wording for lizardfolk in MPMM, you see it says "equal to." "Up to" is probably my misremembering. But "upwards" would mean going over the number, wouldn't it? Unless I've been using that word wrong.--Yanied (talk) 08:59, 26 March 2024 (MDT)