Talk:Blood Angel (5e Race)
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I think the Infernal Legacy could be shortened into "You can cast detect thoughts at will, at a creature that shares at least one language with you. Charisma is your spellcasting ability for this spell. Additionally, you can hide your wings (as a bonus action?)" Please let me know if you have any reasons for the current version. --WeirdoWhoever (talk) 20:55, 8 February 2017 (MST)
I just read the other features as well, and found it quite overpowered. Here we go:
- Ability Score Increase. A total ability score increase of +4, at any abilities, and a skill and a feat. All races in the PHB has a total ability score increase of +3, except for humans, and that is because humans have no other features whatsoever. This is purely a balance issue, you can see. Also, notice that feats are optional rules in the 5th editions; see humans in PHB for presenting a variant rule.
- Speed. I suggest taking reference from Elemental Evil: Player's Companion, now available for free on the official WotC website. Aarakocras have a flying speed of 50 feet, and they lose it when they wear medium or heavy armor.
- Resistance. Maybe you can make blood angels choose from one of the two. Both of them would be overpowered.
- Healing Touch. This is cure wounds plus lesser restoration, right? Notice that D&D has been very picky on healing features, especially when it comes to healing others. Which is why clerics or at least paladins are a must at bigger a adventuring party. I suggest either reducing the amount of healing, or choosing one of the two, rather than the both at the same time.
- Infernal Legacy. I mentioned shortening it above, but then, casting 2nd-level spell from the 1st level would be too strong. See tiefling for refrence.
- Even though Dodst hasn't made an edit in months, I reverted the racial traits of the race they originally created back to their version. It was/is a little powerful in my opinion, but not too bad. Several (mostly anonymous) users kept stacking on more and better traits on top of the original creation until it became ridiculous, so I felt the need to just undo all that. (Fite me.) - Guy (talk) 22:26, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
- A lot of the changes were made to accommodate WeirdoWhoever's suggestions. In this regard...
- Your wording doesn't make it clear which stats get a defined increase. A small edit, and suddenly the Angel gets +6 points increase total. With the change, it's +3 score increase with the benefit of putting the points across the way they want. It can go either 3 stats (Example: +1 STR, +1 DEX, +1 CON), 2 stats (Example: +2 INT, +1 WIS), or all into 1 Stat (Example: +3 CHA).
- I'll take the blame on the latter part, but as Whoever mentioned, having both Radiance and Hellish Resistance at once could give more power. So by splitting it up to choosing one of two choices, it keeps a balance. The blame on my part was someone later edited Radiance to include Necrotic damage, so I gave the upped Hellish. Blame I'll take on that.
- Again, I took Whoever's suggestion on the "Healing Touch" feature, but made it level-based. Maybe I should have made the levels a bit broader, but I was trying to keep the two clear cut.
- I reworked the "Infernal Legacy" to around 3rd level (re-reading some tables, I was going to up the level to 5th), and made it clear it was possible to hide the wings and what it detailed if the wings were hidden.
- The Language was mostly just clean-up by the time I got around. I didn't know the intention was merely a choice between the 2, but the slight flavor of knowing Infernal, and Celestial seemed interesting, considering the heritage.
- I thought my intention was pretty clear, but that could be my mistake. Regardless, I would argue that a limited +2/+2 (as I intended to have it read) is no more unbalanced than +3 to anything (especially as if unregulated this could cause a player-character to start with an ability score above 20). To keep with the original design of the race and compromise both of our perspectives, maybe it would be best for something like, "Increase your Strength, Intelligence, or Charisma score by 2, and another one of those scores by 1. Alternatively, increase all three of these scores by 1 each." This would also prevent it from being able to match almost any other race's ability scores, as is the case with 'split up three +1s however you want.' So, how about that?
- Fire damage is overwhelmingly more common in a typical campaign than radiant damage, especially when it comes to adventures under level 10 or so. I can agree that getting two resistances might be too much, but if a player-character is presented with this kind of choice, it shouldn't be so unbalanced. (I did do this reversion based on getting fire/cold and radiant/necrotic, though, which we both know was even worse.) If any change would be made to this, I would say either radiant resistance should get the axe, or that the player can change their resistance to either fire or radiant after completing a long rest. It's good to have choices, but not when one is so blatantly better than the other that you spend 20 levels kicking yourself for not choosing it.
- In brief, I will say I believe WW's analysis here was inaccurate. The current class trait heals an average of 4.5 hit points (which is pretty meh after 1st or 2nd level), unlike cure wounds which heals an average of 4.5 to 9.5 depending on your casting ability. The trait restores three of the four conditions of lesser restoration, but not paralysis, which is easily the most severe of those four. This trait is less than the two combined. Keeping it this way is less powerful than either individual effect. Furthermore, keeping it this way forces you to choose between the reliable choice healing damage when it first occurs, or the riskier choice of saving it for a debilitating condition. As it was, you could do either at separate times since each is its own "slot"—preventing you from needing to make that choice. (It's also worth nothing that using an action to restore hit points in combat is usually a waste of an action, and something that should be saved for out of combat. So saving on the action economy by combining them doesn't help too much here, I think.)
- I simply reverted Infernal Legacy to how Dodst had it. Having that cantrip on this race seemed like it made much more sense than being able to magically hide wings (why?) and cast detect thoughts (why tho?), neither of which were ever part of the original design. Thaumaturgy is also particularly flavorful and fun in use; and to emphasize this point, I think perfectly fits the race's flavor, unlike the traits that later replaced it.
- I barely even noticed the language change honestly. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Finally, this hasn't been mentioned by you or I yet, but I feel an important point is that the race now—as it originally did—has a flight speed of only 30 feet instead of 60 feet. I think the flight speed is still the most powerful aspect of this race, and the main reason I said it is still "a little powerful in my opinion." - Guy (talk) 23:58, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
- The Stat increase was totaled up, more-or-less and hence Whoever's comment on the +4 increase total. Other classes have, on average, +3 points to different stats, more often +2 to a Main stat and +1 to a Secondary stat. Plus, considering this is a Wiki page and someone can edit a page willy-nilly, it doesn't take long to delete a few words, and suddenly the Race gets +2 to CHA, STR, and INT for a total of +6 points. I went with Whoever's idea of making it a solid +3, but gave it the slight versatility of using those 3 points at will.
- Since the lore is the Blood Angel is a mix of the Angel and a Tiefling, axing Radiance would come off as a disservice, as it's evident that the Angel's side of the mix is fairly evident. I would vote in favor allowing the ability to shift between the two.
- From what I'm reading, "Healing Touch" gives similar effects of both "Cure Wounds" and "Lesser Restoration" in one feature. At this point, I feel this could dissolve into a bit of argument between 2 Separate spells vs. 1 Unified spell, because the entire bit is too huge of a situational hypothetical that can lean either way. By allowing both "Cure Wounds" and "Healing Touch" as separate bits, it allows Person A to heal Person B of wounds, and cure Person C of their Paralysis, vs. Person A healing Person B, but because the alignment removal was spent with the healing, Person C is still Paralyzed. But by contrast, a campaign may never inflict different status alignments thus the whole need for the ability to cure Paralysis, Poison, Blindness, or Deafness would go completely unused.
- Don't shoot the messenger on the "Detect Thoughts" part. It was like that when I got here. If I had to wager, I suppose "Detect Thoughts" was done to make the race stand out, at least make it unique. I understand the original Tiefling had "Thaumaturgy" as the cantrip, and the cantrip seems limited to the Cleric spell list, thus it would make sense from a symbolical point via the Tiefling causing mischief and the Angel spreading the Divine Will. But then again, if one wanted to do that, they would probably choose either the Tiefling as a Race, a class with the Cleric Spell List, or heck, even both. "Detect Thoughts" at least stands out a bit more. Other than that, I can't say.
- Well, hiding Wings is kind of a big thing as a whole, be it for campaign reasons or character motivational reasons. If an Angel is seen wandering around wings willy-nilly, that would cause a whole lotta stuff to pop up. An Angel appearing beginning the End Of Times and causing social panic, or have an entire cult devoted to their worship and pretty much never being let out the Exit again. Or maybe the Angel had the idea of "Never reveal your true nature to anyone!!!" pretty much nailed, screwed on, super-glued, gorilla-glued, welded, and pretty much forged into the mind of the Angel and thus, they almost never reveal their wings to anyone. Heck I'm using Secrecy as a reason for another character of mine who can do something like that because they're an Assassin (Assassin's Creed), and having visible wings in a group of Assassins is a huge-ass target painted on their back.
- A an even easier edit can change a +2 to a +4, or 30 feet to 60 feet, so I don't think that particular point is very valid. Like I said before, giving it "three points at will" lets it emulate nearly every other race sans human, and I think that's too much for a race that is already pretty potent. I would still like to know whether or not you think the following is a good enough compromise: "Increase your Strength, Intelligence, or Charisma score by 2, and another one of those scores by 1. Alternatively, increase all three of these scores by 1 each."
- Glad we can agree on that. I've made the relevant edit.
- I'm not entirely sure, but it seems like you agree with me then? It's less powerful and more balanced the way it currently is?
- Shooting the messenger? To be clear, I'm engaging in this conversation because we seem to have ideas about how this race should be balanced, and am trying to come to a consensus. Anyway, when it comes to 2nd-level spell with a very narrow use that is available to three classes versus a cantrip only available to one, I think the cantrip stands out more. We both seem to agree it fits the race better, so that's good.
- Hiding wings seems much like a metagaming, munchkining trait to me and doesn't really have much to do with the race. Tieflings can't easily hide their demonic features and true angels can't easily dismiss their wings without some kind of class feature, so why should blood angels get a special pass? You've explained its purpose in a metagaming perspective, but not how or why every blood angel is able to do this. Having visible wings the only real downside to having a fly speed (which again, in my opinion is THE most powerful aspect of this race), and one that should be kept considering how potent a fly speed can be. That particular trait only served to cover up this small weakness and remove mild intrigue from a game when the blood angel has to make a Deception check to say he or she is half birdman. If one thinks the wings are that bad, I'm sure one can fold them back and drape a thick cloak over them—or just sever the wings entirely and restore them later with a high-level spell.
- More a point-out on the current as-written Score Increase currently. If kept that way, a better phrasing should be "Either your Strength or Intelligence is increased by +2, or both are increased by +1."
- Ehh. Pros and cons to each on the "Healing Touch" feat. I suppose that will be a DM discretion deal, so yeah I agree.
- All I was saying is that I was just doing a clean-up job and am not responsible for the change from Thaumaturgy to Detect Thoughts. I'll admit, personal bias is going into my reasoning, if only because the DMs I've been through have not given much reasoning to use it (Nothing but dungeon crawls, or essentially what could be described as a Minecraft world, where people don't respond to anything you do aside from buying, selling, or trading), but I kind of want the race to stand out with a unique feature. While Thaumaturgy can be neat, I can't help but feel like it would just make the race a variant of Tiefling. And if I wanted the feature that badly, I'd pick the Cleric class, or Tiefling race. I know personal reasons shouldn't be a thing when doing edits, but since all my time in D&D has NEVER included role-playing in a Tabletop ROLE-PLAYING game... Yeah, my reasons are shitty I know. But my experience hasn't really given me hope of seeing use of the spell at all.
- It's mostly conflicting legends and depictions to be fair. Out of the two Angel races available on the site, one can hide their wings easily. In all the time I spent reading about angels and demons, being able to hide their wings was essentially a given for both because of the need to blend in with the people, because either they would get too much worship, or be shunned and forced away from society. Blood Angels would probably be seen as unholy abominations by normal society in the aspect that the Angel was a disgrace and the tiefling heritage means they're also demons, Tieflings in the aspect that they're part Angel and their enemy alongside being a half-breed and a monster in tiefling society, and Angels in the aspect that they're an abomination due to the mating of a disgraced angel and a demon and could even be seen as the scourge of the Planes and don't deserve a chance at life. Going into DM/Player interactions, if a Blood Angel does clip their own wings, or was forcibly clipped and seeks a means of regaining them, a DM could prevent the Angel from ever getting their wings back ever. Then again you would probably be wanting a different DM if that were the case, but if you didn't have a choice at all you were stuck being a Tiefling variant (No relation to the point above, I swear.)
So apparently the artist who made the work has since deleted her DA account and now it doesn't seem possible to find her page anywhere. The image just shows up on forums if I search. Fair use?--Yanied (talk) 16:19, 22 February 2019 (MST)