Talk:Wind Blade (5e Class)
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- Thank you for brining up many of these issues, I used info from 5e SRD classes, but most everything was done by scratch, and I was unfamiliar with many of the technicalities of creating a class and wording it properly. Gamegeniecentral was very helpful in balancing the class and helping fix up any wording issues, and thanks to him, the class is in a much better state now. For now, I will do minor edits and cleaning up of the class until it is agreed upon that the class is polished enough to remove the wording and balance templates. Also, as a final note what do you mean by no class options?--Blobby383b (talk) 18:32, 29 June 2017 (MDT)
- Also as a note, I believe several of Tempest spells do not have SRD or Homebrew pages on the wiki, is that ok or should I add what I find about the spells to Homebrew and then link the spells in the Wind Blade class to those pages? I will also looking at these spells and seeing their relative power level.
- Gust. this appears to be well balanced and will work as a cantrip for the class
- Zephyr Strike. Broken and should be replaced, provides way too many things.
- Warding Wind. Appears to be good, may need a further look at.
- Dust Devil. balanced.
- Control Winds. huge range, besides that it appears to be good.
- Investiture of Wind. 60ft fly and other effects, may be balanced by the level and cost of Tempest points, otherwise may not be balanced because of flying swordsman who dishes out a decent amount of damage.
- Whirlwind. May need to increase tempest point cost by 1 on this spell, is a great spell, and may not be balanced in context of the class.
- Most of the Tempest Spells are from the Elemental Evils Players Companion, which should be fine since it is published by WOTC. The only spells that are not from EE are Gust of Wind and Wind Wall, which are from the PHB, and Zephyr Strike, which is from Unearthed Arcane, which would explain why it is so broken for a 1st-level spell. I appreciate the feedback and I will try to think of ways to balance the spells. -Gamegeniecentral
- Yes, I am surprised by the amount of wind spells that are in the Elemental Evils Players Companion. I will do a final read through of the class and comment below about anything of interest that comes up:
- Tempest Blade. Most of the balance changes, and new features of tempest blade I agree with and believe are for the better, however Speed of the Tempest cost could be changed to 3, but I understand why it is currently at 4.
- Flash Step. You should not be penalized for spending your reaction, spending a reaction to do nothing should be balanced enough.
- Sight of the Tempest. Does the sensing a creature's presence get rid of disadvantage on attacks against the creature? May need further explanation.
- Multiclassing. Changed to wis 13 instead of str 13.
- I'm very glad you like my changes Blobby. When I read about this class, I saw a lot of potential in it and thought I could help make the class better. I still do not think it is perfect, and I would love more feedback on it from other people to see how broken or balanced it is. I have some other ideas for the class, but I want to wait for more feedback to do them. It was a pleasure working with you on this class. Also, I was thinking we could changed the name of the class from Wind Blade to Wind Knight. Wind Blade sounds too much like an archetype and Wind Knight sounds a lot more like a class. -Gamegeniecentral.
- Wind Knight does sound more like a better class name, but we should also consider other options that include a wind, tempest, storm, ect. before changing it, and if nothing else comes up Wind Knight is a great option.
- As for Winds of Protection, I am unsure how to feel about it because the class may get too many defensive options against attacks with Ride the Currents, Warding Wind, and Winds of Protection. Tempest Spells currently have a lot of effects that give attack rolls of ranged weapon attacks disadvantage on or near you and adding another defensive option may not be a great idea. Adding a non-combat option for the 6 point slot along the lines of commune with nature or gaseous form or something else may be better.
- Besides that, the only thing that needs to be changed is Flash Step, and I will try to explain why in greater detail this time. First you have to dash on your turn using Tempest points or using a Dash action. Then you must spend a reaction making an Acrobatics check. If you fail, you spent a Dash and a reaction and to make an opportunity attack has advantage against you. As such, once again, using a dash and wasting a reaction for nothing is not good for the class, and I will be changing it unless it is explained clearly why it should give disadvantage while using a dash and a reaction. Sorry if I was a little abrasive, but I was just trying to show why I think the current Flash Step should be changed. --Blobby383b (talk) 12:08, 30 June 2017 (MDT)
- I added Winds of Protection because I wanted there to be the same number of Tempest Spells as there are Tempest Blade features. Looking back on it giving Shield to this class is pretty broken so I should probably change it. I like your idea for Commune with Nature being the other spell so I'll probably change it to that. Your explanation for Flash Step does help me understand why the fail was unnecessary so I'm glad you changed that. Other than that I was thinking of splitting Tempest Blade and Tempest Spells into archetypes for the class so the class can gain more variety. Before I change it I wanted to gain your opinion on it and some opinions from other people to see if it is a good idea. If we do go down that route I have an idea for a third archetype that makes the class more of a strength-based tank role. I would love to hear your opinions on it. -Gamegeniecentral
- Adding a final spell to balance out the number was fine and changing it to Commune with Nature was probably the best option. Adding different archetypes could be interesting, if not for all the problems of doing it with Tempest Spells in particular. If done the Tempest Spells class would probably have to be converted to regular spell casting with spell slots and a much expanded spell list to even begin to compare to the other spell casting classes. Also, having a spell casting archetype and a non-spell casting archetype is, from what I understand, not done because the class traits usually are not helpful for both archetypes. Almost all of the class features would have to be rework for a Tempest Blade archetype and would require a huge rework. Because of all that, there will be a ton of problems trying to make an archetype specifically around the Spells portion of this class. On a side note, I thought of a great work around. We could do something along the lines of Tempest Shield/Armor archetype, a Tempest Blade archetype, and have the Tempest Spells be part of the main class so we don't run into any of these problems. --Blobby383b (talk) 15:15, 30 June 2017 (MDT)
- What you said makes a lot of sense. Because adding the archetypes would require serious reworks to the class I recommend we keep the class as is and wait for more feedback. The only changes I'll make to the class now would be balancing issues until we get more feedback. I'm going to remove the balance template and hopefully that will give this class more attention. -Gamegeniecentral
- I agree that we can remove needs balancing template because the class is much more balanced and well explained than it was earlier. A few last things, thanks for adding a link to the other spells in Tempest Spells and for the work you did to help me refine and rework the class, bring up any future balance issues below, and if you need to contact me about the race or need help with a page or just want to talk, you can contact me on my discussion page under Wind Blade or here if we are talking about balancing the class. Also p.s. you can press the tiny signature on the row of buttons to have the fancy signature instead of typing it out every time.--Blobby383b (talk) 19:05, 30 June 2017 (MDT)
Current Balance Issues
The feather fall feature of Windy Steps and Mass Windy steps was added by a random user while it is a cool idea, feather fall features should not last (should last 1 minute) that long and I will be removing it from them. Changing Zephyr Strike or Ride Like the Wind to feather fall in the Tempest Spell list may be a solution that gets rid of the problematic Zephyr Strike, while giving the class an option of feather falling before level 20. --Blobby383b (talk) 22:13, 1 July 2017 (MDT)
- I like your class options for this class. I think it is a good way to add individuality to each Wind Blade while still keeping my idea of prioritizing swordplay and spells. My only concern is the Spell Arts subclass. With Tempest Blade, Tempest Spells, and Spell Arts, it uses too much tempest points to be useful. I think we should give that subclass more tempest points, potentially doubling the amount of tempest points it has in order to make it more useful. I was wondering what you thought about this before I make any changes. Once again great ideas and glad I've worked with you on this class--Gamegeniecentral (talk) 23:52, 19 July 2017 (MDT)
- The point of the Spell Arts subclass was that you would use Tempest Blade features less than the Tempest Spells and Spell Arts Spells because they are less useful to you. Doubling the amount of Tempest Points might be a little much, but I will look at adding 1 point every other level instead to the subclass. Glad you liked my idea of the class options, it was good to work with you as well on the class. Finally, bring up any final things you believe may be problems up here.--Blobby383b (talk) 00:23, 20 July 2017 (MDT)
- Good job on all the slight balance changes and adding more flavor into the Spell Arts archetype. As a side note, which archetype do you believe is stronger, Blade Arts or Spell Arts(I believe they are much more balanced now with the buffs to Spell Arts and the nerfs to Blade Arts)?--Blobby383b (talk) 11:36, 14 August 2017 (MDT)
- I think that Spell Arts was way more stronger than Blade Arts because of the extra spells, more tempest points, and more powerful abilities like Cutting Winds and Cyclone. I have made changes to Blade Arts in order to make it more on par with Spell Arts. Hopefully it makes them more balanced than being extremely overpowered.--Gamegeniecentral (talk) 17:21, 20 August 2017 (MDT)
- Blade Arts did need a buff, but the new/reworked features can be refined. Flash step looks good, Mastery of The Blade needs a link or a description of what the Dueling and Great Weapon Fighting fighting styles are, and I would remove attacking with advantage because you are already using your reaction to half the damage dealt to you and attack them back even if they don't move out of your attack of opportunity range(mostly 5ft so it is basically another guaranteed attack against any creature that hits you even if they do not move away from you).
- Also, Champion of The Wind was nerfed because it was incredibly powerful before, to the point of being broken(4th attack plus additional damage is quite strong). As for the current version, double movement speed is quite broken as a dash gets you to 4x your base walking speed which at the very least 45ft if you are a small creature. You should not be able to move 180ft (other races move even faster if they have a higher base walking speed.) at the very least in one round. The conditions part seemed weird, how does activating this feature allow you to get out of being charmed, and frightened and a few other conditions? Besides that the 4th attack was removed because the class did too much damage, but giving the class limited access to a 4th attack works quite well.--Blobby383b (talk) 17:50, 20 August 2017 (MDT)
- When I reworked Champion of the Blade, my idea was that the Wind Blade goes into an adrenaline-feuled state of zen where their only focus is attacking, which is why he wouldn't be effected by those effects because he can fight past them. Plus at level 20 the class is already immune to being charmed and freightened, so it was kind of redundant on my part to mention it again. To add on, you are 100% right about the movement. I didn't realize how much movement the class could get out of it and can see how it can be extremely broken. Also, now that you bring up Ride the Currents, I was never a really big fan of that and Elusive Winds because they are just the rogue's Uncanny Dodge and Evasion. I wanted to make the class more unique so I reworked Ride the Currents into something different and replaced Elusive Winds with Cloud Copy. I hope that these changes make the class more unique and fun to use. Finally, now that Ride the Currents no longer halves an attacks damage, I re-added the counter feature to Mastery of the Blade, minus the advantage on the attack because that did make the feature pretty overpowered. I really like the counter ability so I hope we can keep it in and work together if it needs to be reworked. --Gamegeniecentral (talk) 20:26, 22 August 2017 (MDT)
- You did a good job on reworking the final features, I looked through them and nothing seems to be too overpowered about them. I did make several other edits to better balance the archetypes and made a few minor edits to the class that include adding the level to ride the currents and reaction to mastery of the blade.--Blobby383b (talk) 21:15, 22 August 2017 (MDT)
- Flying was not balanced before for the class because it makes the class very powerful compared to other classes. As I said earlier when talking about giving this class flying, it is not balanced to have a flying swordsman who dishes out a decent amount of damage(with some spell casting). The class also does not need flying, it has access to a few ranged spells and is mainly focused on being fast on the ground with both spells and attacks.--Blobby383b (talk) 19:28, 22 September 2017 (MDT)
I actually got a chance to use this class in a campaign one of my friends is running, so I have been able to play test the class and see where it's strengths and weaknesses lie. One of the biggest weaknesses of the class is the number of tempest points the class gets. The other players and the DM said that The class can do a lot of cool things, but it almost never gets to because it does not have enough tempest points to do it before having to rest. I either use them all too quickly, making me useless for the rest of combat, or I never end up using them because I am trying to conserve them. To fix this, I made the number of Tempest Points the Spell Arts get into what all Wind Blades get. That way, you can feel more inclined to spend them in combat while also preventing the player from being able to do too much without any consequences. This also balances out Spell Arts because now they only have the ability to regain Tempest Points after a short rest instead of also having more points. --Gamegeniecentral (talk) 15:40, 5 October 2017 (MDT)
- That sounds very reasonable, you have access to a ton of options in the Tempest/spell arts features (attack, moving, support spells, damage spells) with very little maximum Tempest points. You still should not have access to as much spell casting as a regular caster, but you make up for that with the variety of options with Tempest points at your disposal and pretty high damage output. As always this is a work in progress, if you find out that any of the Tempest Blade, Tempest Spells, or Spell Arts Spells costs need tweaking feel free to give your thoughts on the matter.--Blobby383b (talk) 14:13, 6 October 2017 (MDT)
- Actually at 1st level, the class had next to no features that improved combat, so you would be weaker than most classes at 1st level. The change to fighting styles and the advanced fighting styles both help balance the class and give the blade arts archetype another unique feature, well done.--Blobby383b (talk) 22:05, 19 October 2017 (MDT)
First of all, I'm glad you agreed with moving the fighting style to 1st level and you like the advanced fighting style idea I came up with. I also agree with a lot of your recent changes to the class and I appreciate you making the class cleaner and adding more reference links. From playtesting the class in one of my campaigns, I found Strength of the Tempest to be very underwhelming in terms of power when the dice were d6s, which is why I changed them to d8s. However, I do agree the 6d8 was too much power, so I decided to change the maximum dice to either 4d8 or 5d8. It is currently at 5d8 and I hope to test that in the next session, but if you think it should be 4d8 you can change it. The other thing was Vortex Slam. The idea behind the skill is that you are sucker punching the target and using wind to strengthen the power of the punch. That and the fact that it knocked them prone is why it makes more sense for the skill to do force damage instead of slashing. Once again it's been an honor to work with you on the class and I hope we can continue to work together on this class in the future. --Gamegeniecentral (talk) 21:52, 20 October 2017 (MDT)
- Limiting Strength of the Tempest to do 4d8 works as well as too limit the damage it can deal in a single turn. I also wanted to change Vortex Slam to slashing for two reasons, one force damage is really strong, almost no creatures have resistance to force damage compared to other damage types and magical winds cutting up an opponent instead of pushing them(force) seems to make more sense. If you want the attack to strength the power of a punch instead of creating cutting winds around the punch, I would recommend changing the damage type to bludgeoning instead. I will be changing Vortex Slam to make more sense(not have a saving throw to hit, instead making it more of an actual punch) and changing the damage type to bludgeoning, after it is done, you can tell me how it looks.--Blobby383b (talk) 22:40, 20 October 2017 (MDT)
- It has also been great to work with you, the class has advanced leaps and bounds since its first several iterations. I can say that I have thoroughly enjoyed the work here and on the wiki in general and will continue to be around in the future to keep on doing those things.--Blobby383b (talk) 22:55, 20 October 2017 (MDT)
- Gamegeniecentral, the Strength of the Tempest feature can be used/deals more damage than the paladin's divine smite at lower levels(you have more charges for it), so I will be moving it to be a bit higher level as you can do too much damage at those levels with it. Also, should Speed of the Tempest be removed/reworked(I now know that this kind of feature should not exist in 5e) and Vortex Slam be moved to 7th level?--Blobby383b (talk) 23:24, 20 October 2017 (MDT)
I asked some of my friends in the D&D group I was testing the class in and they said that vortex slam, if you have to make an attack roll and then a save adds too much risk to the skill, could end up being a waste of points if you miss, and it makes things too complicated. An action should be either an attack or a save, it should not be both. That's why I changed it back to just a save. In order to make it a little less powerful, however, I made it a little bit more costly to use so you can use it less--Gamegeniecentral (talk) 19:13, 21 October 2017 (MDT)
- So you changed the effect to be a melee spell attack, that works. I also love what you did with winds of clarity. Besides that, I think the effect is very weak for 4 tempest points, comparing it to dust devil or Freedom of Movement makes the effect look like a joke for 4 tempest points. The damage could increased to 3d8 and the cost reduced to 3. Also Strength of the Tempest if fine compared to divine smite after 4th level(Paladin gets more spell slots at 5th level to equalize the power level of the features), which is why I left the cost at 2 and only increased the level you get it at.
- On another note, some attacks can have both an attack roll and a saving throw although it is generally avoided, and you should never have your PC's regular weapon attack always requires a saving throw. Some examples that have both include poisons, and certain creature attacks that have additional effects.(see balor's whip pull, creature poison, restrained, and diseased)--Blobby383b (talk) 21:04, 21 October 2017 (MDT)
After receiving some feedback on the class, I learned that a class feature should not be given a free feat since it is way too powerful and no other classes give one for free. Therefore, I removed the advanced fighting styles and replaced them with an improved version of the counter ability we had and limited its uses to balance out it's power. I also gave it another feature in order to improve on the idea that the character is a master at swordplay and 1-on-1 duels. --Gamegeniecentral (talk) 14:40, 30 January 2018 (MST)
- I feel the new Mastery of The Blade feature fits blade arts better anyway as opposed to you just getting a power increase from feats. Also, the feedback received about classes not getting feats is correct according to Class Do's and Don'ts (5e Guideline).--Blobby383b (talk) 15:25, 30 January 2018 (MST)
The numerous recent edit done don't appear to have been done in good spirit, and were only intended to greatly buff this class. I think these edits should be undone to keep it fair. Coaldstone (talk) 14:58, 2 February 2019 (MST)
Thinking of playtesting
One of my friends is allowing homebrew content in his campaign,and I'm thinking of trying this class out. Initial concerns are the distinct lack of tempest points it seems to have, and how few features they actually have if/when they run out. We'll be level 6, so I'll have fighting style and extra attack. Flash strike seems like a good idea for gaining damage to keep up with damage of other classes, but even that turns off when you run out of points because you can't dash and attack in the same turn without them (unless I drop 2 levels in rogue, but that's a multiclass gimmick that completely undermines one of the main mobility options, and adds the damage I was trying to keep up with anyway). I feel like the limitations in place for spell arts hinder blade arts a bit too much. To counteract this I'd make tempest points come back on short rest or making the number of tempest points available closer to PP from the psion class in UA. --Chara TFFC (talk) 15:53, 24 June 2019 (MDT)