Talk:Path of the Sage (Shinobi World Supplement)

Some jutsu for the other kind of sages would be cool. Also their is a sage monkey mode in the show, that may be worth considering to add. not sure stats though.

Currently, no jutsu from this subclass is restricted to any particular sage creature effect, but I could see about adding some snake/slug-themed jutsu. As for monkey sage mode, I am aware of Hiruzen's summon Enma, but whether or not he is a sage creature is entirely speculation, and he certainly never taught anyone sage mode. Would you mind linking a clip/wiki article about it?--Ref3rence (talk) 09:24, 17 November 2021 (MST)

Several of the features on this page are poorly worded or inconsistent with each other. Additionally, this subclass is extremely weak compared to the others aside from one optional feature at level 15. Sage mode at every level is fairly weak as a state, the base version only granting some minor advantages that come nowhere near the level of even the early advantages of dōjutsu subclasses. This is offset to some extent by a few of the campaign specific Sage animals, which are so enormously powerful it’s unclear why you’d ever choose any of the others. But I think the biggest issue comes in the form of the senjutsu chakra. To put it bluntly, aside from using it to cast Sage Arts, it’s useless. You lose it very quickly and unless you meditate before taking a long rest to restore your normal chakra it offers no advantage over normal chakra. The only reason you would build up senjutsu chakra before level 15 is to get your Sage Mode active or to cast a Sage Art. That wouldn’t necessarily be a bad thing if the cost weren’t so huge. For a character with 16 wisdom at level 10, you’re going to be meditating at least two full rounds to enter Sage Mode for a single round, and even if you spend none of your chakra a maximum length Sage Mode can only last 8 rounds. Part of this problem is how small the chakra supply is for any character, but even if it were larger senjutsu chakra would be subpar.

Until we reach level 15. Then everything changes. Passive Meditation allows you to transform normal chakra into senjutsu chakra at a one to two ratio. Even though the amount is very limited, we can still have a net gain of 2 senjutsu chakra per round while having use of our bonus action, and since we haven’t reached the very poorly worded 23rd level features, we’re regaining our normal chakra with double returns! This is amazing! This one feature makes Sage Mode suddenly powerful. You’re chakra reserves are near endless as long as you can meditate, not unlike the strongest Sages we actually see in the series. But this is a feature with two other options, both of which are so much worse than this one it’s almost laughable. Clone Meditation is also easily abused, since it does not specify that the clones must spend any extended period of time meditating to transform their chakra, allowing one to use a single casting of shadow clone to transform all their chakra into senjutsu chakra in a single round at a noticeable chakra cost. This bypasses the most important aspect of Sage Mode, the need to meditate, entirely. But it doesn’t actually improve Sage Mode, leaving the effect broken and yet still underpowered.

Some of the features are confusing as well. Sage Kata states, “you gain twice as many senjutsu when you meditate” which I assume to mean “when you meditate, you may transform twice as much normal chakra into senjutsu chakra as before”, but it doesn’t say that. As is, I could easily see this being interpreted as the base version of Passive Meditation (although I’d think it should be phrased, “when you meditate, you may transform your normal chakra into twice as much senjutsu chakra” or something similar), if it weren’t for one of the optional features at 23rd level, which looks like it might be a relic from a previous version of the subclass: “When you meditate to create senjutsu chakra, you gain twice as much senjutsu chakra as normal chakra lost. Whenever your senjutsu chakra would be converted into normal chakra, such as at the end of each of your turns, you regain half as many normal chakra points as senjutsu chakra lost instead.” This is just Passive Meditation but worse. No one is going to be using normal meditation in combat anyway, considering the enormous action cost, and Passive Meditation is so much better, that it would actually be a negative in every area to level up to 23rd level.

I’ve now spent three paragraphs criticizing this subclass, which may sound rather harsh, but don’t take this the wrong way. I love the work that’s been done on this whole supplement. There’s obviously been enormous amounts of effort, time, and skill put into developing it. I hope that rather than being a discouragement, my criticism can help make this subclass better. As such, here are so,e recommendations for how to make it better with as little mechanical change as possible. First of all, clarity edits. The wording in every ability needs to be more specific to avoid confusion and misinterpretation. Secondly, make senjutsu chakra give increased returns. Whether this follows the principle of Passive Meditation or (more likely) Senjutsu Master, senjutsu chakra should serve as a way for characters to surpass their normal chakra limits. Not only is this lore accurate, it would be a much needed buff to the subclass power. Additionally, since senjutsu chakra can’t be raised above chakra max without repercussions, the most extra chakra it could give without long rest shenanigans is and additional 50%. This could be further balanced by making senjutsu chakra reset on a long rest. Third and finally, the alternate features should get trimmed, compressed, and combined into main subclass features. There’s really not a reason why this subclass shouldn’t be doing more, considering the abilities of some of the other subclass with similar fandom fame. An example of this process would be doing away with the Clone Meditation alternate feature, and instead just noting that if a clone spends time converting their normal chakra to senjutsu chakra, then when they are dispelled the chakra that returns to you will remain as senjutsu or normal chakra in the same amounts.

I hope this helps, and thank you for your wonderful supplement! --EternalFutures (talk) 23:16, 29 November 2022 (MST)

This does help, though admittedly the long paragraph did have me a bit worried. Sage Kata was always meant to double meditation's output (this has been clarified on-page), with the benefit of Passive Meditation negating the need to be prone without a bonus action or movement at the expense of half as much conversion. Clones can already meditate and return senjutsu chakra, Clone Meditation serves as a faster way to meditate than Passive Meditation at a cost.

That being said, a few things are left hanging. First and foremost, I don't understand the criticism that senjutsu chakra is only useful for Sage Mode and Sage Art. What else would it be useful for other than what it's used for? Additionally, while I have given Sage Mode an AC bonus (mostly for power creep reasons), I don't see it being much weaker than the effects of starting dojutsu, especially when one feature allows for full doubling of a jutsu's damage, nor do I see any of the Sage Creature effects as significantly stronger than any other, could you go more into that?--Ref3rence (talk) 00:20, 30 November 2022 (MST)

Thanks for the prompt response. My point in saying that senjutsu chakra was only useful for SM and Sage Art was that, in the manga (I haven’t watched the entire show, but I have read the manga) senjutsu is stated to be easier to recover than normal chakra, and hence more efficient to use. I couldn’t find a mention of this on Narutopedia, however, so I could be misremembering.

Sage Arts are useable without entering SM, and they’re certainly a more powerful aspect of this subclass. My point with comparing SM to dōjutsu was comparing the base effects. The chakra sense is shorter range, has a higher DC, and a less common proficiency, and I thought the damage bonus wasn’t that useful but I’ve since done the math on that one and it isn’t as bad as I thought. So overall, my impression of SM is that while it was still subpar, I judged it too harshly. I think the AC bonus is enough to make it a very good feature.

For the generic animal forms, aberration, dragon, elemental, and monstrosity are massively better than the others. A huge extension to your darkvision is essentially a rare magic item without the need for attunement. A flying speed can nullify any encounter with low intelligence grounded monsters. Resistance to a common elemental damage type or nonmagical weapons are both going to significantly increase your durability. These things really can’t even be compared to niche use utility like counting as a size smaller for squeezing or only using up a ration every two days instead of one.

For the campaign specific creatures, if you compare ones like refined toads to, say, refined slugs, it’s similarly dramatic in difference. Having advantage on all attack rolls against any creature that doesn’t have a fairly uncommon proficiency is unquestionably better than +10 ft of range. A few other standouts are slugs, refined snakes, refined monkeys, and refined wolves. These ones just have a far more broad use and statistically better bonuses than the others, from what I can tell. I haven’t extensively play tested this, so it might be a bit different in practice. I definitely think some of the animals forms need a rework or buff, though.

Thanks once again! --EternalFutures (talk) 11:33, 30 November 2022 (MST)

Admittedly, since most of my work for this class has become about the setting, non-setting options have fallen by the wayside, though I do plan on rebalancing them at some point, but I invite you to take a shot at them, since you seem to have some pretty good ideas on balance. I've slightly rebalanced the stronger setting-specific sage creature effects you listed, with the exception refined monkeys as while it can be abused in a handful of specific ways (i.e. having 11th level multiattack potential at 3rd level), doing so generally has a high chakra cost, and is somewhat balanced by needing high Wisdom, Constitution, and Intelligence/Dexterity to pull off in any truly beneficial way. Refined toads was changed very slightly, now passing the threshold with 16 Wisdom (which is pretty reasonable for creatures with good perception) or proficiency at 5th level with 10 Wisdom.--Ref3rence (talk) 14:50, 30 November 2022 (MST)

Why doesn’t sage mode grant blindsight, or if not blindsight, possibly the blind fighter fighting style? Jaydon105 (talk)

Sage Mode's sensory capabilities are specifically the ability to sense chakra, so it is represented in the first bullet point of Partial Sage Mode in the same way the Sharingan and Byakugan have chakra sense.--Ref3rence (talk) 11:24, 6 January 2023 (MST)

For refined wolves would that bonus apply to initiative? raw it should, because dex is added to initiative, but initiative has its own roll so I wanted to double check.--Azura (talk) 06:18, 25 January 2023 (MST)

You are correct.--Ref3rence (talk) 11:23, 25 January 2023 (MST)

So I have a couple things with natural wolf sage. Do bonuses to movement speed count towards this? Also do you know specific individuals, or you just know someone is there, and lastly isn't this a little op? You literally could not be surprised unless they were attacking from very long range, and if they were trying to sneak up on you you'd have plenty of time to prepare an ambush. Never mind about the op part, misread sage mode. It's not passive so just the first 2 questions. Also since clones have all of your abilities wouldn't they be able to meditate by default as long as you have that skill?--Azura (talk) 18:41, 25 January 2023 (MST)

Bonuses to movement speed would count, but you wouldn't know more than that "a creature" is nearby. Clones can meditate by default, the benefit of Clone Meditation is that "any chakra they would have returned to you is automatically converted into senjutsu chakra", decreasing meditation time to almost nothing for a couple chakra points.--Ref3rence (talk) 21:12, 25 January 2023 (MST)

Ah ok makes sense. So for an alternate 15th lvl skill could a sage art douple duration of a jutsu? That ones a bit more powerful than the other sage art uses in my opinion, but feels like it could still be possible.--Azura (talk) 21:16, 25 January 2023 (MST)

It feels a little strong, but it could be fun. I've instituted a few limitations to keep potentially overpowered synergies from happening.--Ref3rence (talk) 21:43, 25 January 2023 (MST)

Awesome! Now I have a question about perfect chakra thief and advanced training. If you get the sage art with perfect chakra thief, would advanced training get th level 10 and lvl 15 effects, or is it specifically the first 3. Probably pick the new duration one either way, since I wouldn't usually try and gather senjutsu chakra in combat, but I'm curious.--Azura (talk) 06:25, 26 January 2023 (MST)

I suppose you could, but it wouldn't be super useful unless you were always fighting sages or stealing a teammate's senjutsu (at which point the teammate might as well be the one using Sage Art to not waste chakra and keep up the action economy).--Ref3rence (talk) 17:36, 26 January 2023 (MST)

It was more a question about advanced training, since sage art doesn't gateher the chakra, but passive meditation, and the lvl 10 feature do the best one for chakra thief to get is the 7th lvl one.

Perfect Chakra Thief has to be taken to gain the 3rd level feature before it can be taken to gain any features above it, but after that I suppose you could use Advanced Training to get features above it.--Ref3rence (talk) 00:24, 28 January 2023 (MST)

dang, really wanted the lvl 15 option, but not enough to give up 2 feats for it. Since I'd have to take advanced training first and then perfect chakra feat once to get the lvl 3 bonus a second time and once to get the lvl 15bonus after advanced training gets to lvl 10. Actually 3, since I would have to take the absorbing nin feat too.--Azura (talk) 08:40, 28 January 2023 (MST)

If you form a shadow clone using senjutsu chakra they would have the same amount of senjutsu chakra and regular chakra you used right?--Azura (talk) 09:38, 28 January 2023 (MST)

Yes; "each clone has... the chakra spent creating it", so if you spent senjutsu chakra, the clone would have senjutsu chakra, if you spent red chakra it'd have red chakra, if you spent 2 normal chakra and 2 senjutsu chakra it'd have 2 & 2, etcetera.--Ref3rence (talk) 10:56, 28 January 2023 (MST)

While in Sage Mode, i know that if you cast a jutsu and its entire cost is fulfilled with Senjutsu chakra they gain "double the jutsu's range, damage, or healing, grant a creature disadvantage against any 1 saving throw it incurs, or grant yourself advantage on any 1 saving throw it incurs." that part is easy to follow and really nice. however, if a jutsu's cost is fulfilled entirely by Senjutsu Chakra and requires an attack roll, whether it states melee spell attack (like chidori), ranged spell attack (like Spiraling Wind Sphere), or an unarmed strike (like leaf great flash), could it not grant advantage on the attack roll? -CleverNot 19:57, 17 April 2023 (EST)

Could you cover the cost of jutsu that require different chakra types with sage chakra? For example, if a jutsu says it requires hermit chakra to be cast, could you use sage chakra and still cast it as a sage art? Or would you need unnatural senjutsu at level 23 to do this? Sugar rush (talk) 13:42, 10 December 2023 (MST)

If a feature specifies that it requires a specific type of chakra then you can only use that chakra for the feature, the only exception would be as you said, with unnatural senjutsu in order to make it count as the chakra required. P@uL (talk) 14:28, 10 December 2023 (MST)