Talk:Path of the Insect-Nin (Shinobi World Supplement)

Why is the swarm hp and dmg so low? they had their CR raised to 1 but seem worse in almost everything. Also the Insect-nin path doesn't get companionship bond to buff them so idk how they can be any good? Overall, besides a few jutsu, and the end ability(which seems week for 20) this is a downgrade by far.

Swarms were converted from traditional CR, to being equivalent to a level 1 player, since PECR is used in the Shinobi World setting. Swarms in this subclass are meant to be far more disposable and multiple than the Path of the Beast-Nin, thus no Companionship feature, and are more suited for reconnaissance and stealth than combat. In combat, the intent is to cover the battlefield in multiple swarms, moving them around when necessary, or to invest most of your chakra in a gargantuan Rinkaichu swarm.

Additionally, I disagree that this is a downgrade. Subclasses are meant to be fun, unique, and interesting to play, not just to kill gud. The old Path of the Companion Hive Body path of features were far less interesting, and barely even encompassed how insect users actually act in the series. Please feel free to voice any suggestions with that in mind instead of vague "thing bad".--Ref3rence (talk) 11:34, 21 November 2021 (MST)

Well, in regard to how the insect user should play, this seems almost identical to the puppet user in that now a shinobi has to use their own actions and attacks as a sacrifice for the insect to do anything, and that anything being a 1d4 bite is very weak. Also the jutsu all rely on that same insect dmg which again is low and doesn't really scale. I like the theming and for scouting and what not its not terrible, but given the other paths and even basic class traits in this setting, I don't see how summoning one or two 5hp swarms that steal your actions will be able to keep up with anything.

Puppet Master is more similar to Beast-Nin, all three of which are restricted to not double a player's action economy for obvious balance reasons. Both Puppet Master and Beast-Nin are restricted in the fact that once a creature is lost, getting them back is a lot more expensive than 4 chakra. As explained below, the swarms aren't all that shabby if you play them right. 4/8 damaging unique jutsu use the swarm's bite damage, one of which is Bug Skin, which is strong enough as is.

A 7th level player with high Constitution alone can summon 4 swarms plus change. Depending on the species chosen, the target has to waste actions or chakra killing swarms or risk getting both poisoned and paralyzed, giving the player free chakra (without the player having to waste an ASI and additional jutsu mind you), or take unavoidable damage every round.--Ref3rence (talk) 14:05, 22 November 2021 (MST)

• Perhaps if the summoning was a bonus action at level 3 and a free action later that could help maybe.
• If shinobi insects summons' bites used your martial arts unarmed dmg that would at least allow some scaling for damage.
• And if fusing didn't cost more chakra, at least then the shinobi could afford this cost.
• The level 20 feature should also allow your unarmed dmg to do a variant insect affect, maybe chosen per short or long rest.
• Jar of Poison doesn't say what happens if a living person is in the swarms square.
• Floating Bugs should probably have a longer time limit.
• Insect Tornado is barely stronger than wind style "Great task of the dragon" and cost 3x as much.

Thanks for the suggestions, bullets 1, 4, 6, and 7 have been added in the most recent edit.

• Massive Swarms exists for the sake of letting swarms scale with (or even above) your unarmed die, and if you're focusing on swarm damage, you should be using Rinkaichu, a Gargantuan swarm of which can effectively deal 10d4+6 every attack (almost half the damage of a Tailed Beast Ball).

• Fusing doesn't cost chakra, are you confusing this with the fact that you can create a second kind of swarm (as in the various species listed on the creature page) for 2 additional chakra?
• Jar of Poison doesn't do anything special if there is a living person in the swarm's square, so there's nothing to say on the matter.--Ref3rence (talk) 14:05, 22 November 2021 (MST)

Thank you for listening to a random player. I just want to keep using an insect user so thoughts on it are a plenty. Other suggestions:

• Maybe clarify how many swarms a person can summon at level 3, it says 4+ but not how much it is for an additional swarm.
• 5hp is low even for a level 1 player. Even if fused into a gargantuan swarm, 30hp is still plenty killable for many beginner level players, not considering players of the same level. Maybe the swarms have 2x the swarms combined hp or maybe every additional swarm size above small adds the shinobis spellcasting modifier temp hp per size?
• For level 20: Probably should just have poison, paralysis, grapple, and restrained immunity like swarms. Also the shinobi should be able to merged with swarms within 5 ft as a free or other kind of action, and retain the benefits for a minute? Or something similar.
• For Human Cocoon, does a person carrying the cocoon feel the 500lbs or is it more like tensors disk? Either should be clarified.
• For bug bomb, a normal rasengan deals 2d10+2d10+modifier. So this costing more for a lot less seems a bit unusable.

No worries, I'm glad to hear you're enjoying this class, at least as a whole.

• 2-5 have been implemented. I was kicking around a way to fix the HP problem, but hadn't come up with any good ideas, so thanks! Bug Bomb wasn't buffed especially hard because of its range and condition, but definitely needed
• Poison Cloud costs 4 chakra, so the minimum each swarm costs (without the Aburame clan boon) is 4 chakra. Past that, as long as you can spend the chakra, you can keep making swarms.--Ref3rence (talk) 17:23, 22 November 2021 (MST)

Looks like only the level 20 thing has changed, not points 2,4,or 5. Another user I know suggested that the insects should do 2d4+dex instead of one, base, because at level 10 the slow build is hard to compare with just 10 chakra jutsu that do 6d8 and what not. I forgot to add it earlier but are you going to do a clan boon for the other insect clan, the Kamizuru clan from Stone. Not as recognizable so i get if not.

• Insect Jar should prob be much cheaper, like 1 or 2 over substitution for its reaction cost because it is likely to only block one attack since it has swarm hp and ac.

Human Cocoon was clarified that the cocoon's weight limit is for the sturdiness of the cocoon, and Bug Bomb had its damage increased (though I did forget to add the temp HP oops). I'm hesitant to outright add another die to their damage both for the sake of a more accurate PECR, and for Rinkaichu; what if we allowed players to add their proficiency bonus to their swarms' damage as well?--Ref3rence (talk) 18:55, 22 November 2021 (MST)

For the human cocoon, i meant if a person cocoons something on their back, then would it feel like carrying 500lb or does the weight get negated up to 500lbs? Also I keep getting back to spending 4 chakra to summon a 5 hp swarm. That's pretty expensive for something that dies with one hit. summoning 4 for all you chakra at level 5 that then get wiped by a 6 chakra fire jutsu is rough. Also the Insects should benefit from and counts as your unarmed attacks for taijutsu abilities. And you should clarify that when the swarms get bigger they can hit all creatures in the swarm when they attack.

I remembered to sign in this time. And i don't remember if i said it but the insect jar should maybe be more like 6+ for a reaction, which is twice substitution jutsu.

Sorry for the delay. I initially thought there wasn't any need to clarify such a thing in Human Cocoon, since generally real-world physics is the base assumption, halving things within the cocoon gives it something more interesting to do. I've added a way to slightly increase your swarms' hit points here, as well as the Overwhelming Swarms and Numerous Swarms feats, which can make their hp/cost ratio a little better with some investment, since adding them in their full amount here would be a bit too strong (though like most subclasses, jutsu should be your main chakra sink at 5th level).--Ref3rence (talk) 16:52, 26 November 2021 (MST)

• Probably most/all of the aoe insect jutsu should specify "all chosen creatures", like insect Tornado, since the insects are controlled by command (and at later levels telepathy). Makes since that friendly creatures shouldn't be all bit up. Maybe make it an feature at level 7? also should probably do half damage on a success for things like tornado. ~~ GentlestGolemn ~~(talk) 00:52, 14 December 2021 (MST)

Insect Tornado was chosen specifically to not be for all chosen creatures due to the concept of the jutsu (if the tornado's speed is the point, there's really no room to avoid anything). As for making it an all or half, almost every other unique jutsu for this path is all or half, so making it all or none gives them at least 1 thing that wouldn't be effected by a Resistant feature, since almost every other damaging insect-nin jutsu is all or half.--Ref3rence (talk) 10:06, 14 December 2021 (MST)

-Fair enough, I see what you mean.

• Also, if we can somehow increase our swarm bite damage, either dice or modifier, does the new combined swarms have a combination of each swarms dmg or just 1 die count up? I like the increasing dice number but it doesn't mention modifier rn ~~ GentlestGolemn ~~(talk) 01:42, 18 December 2021 (MST)

Hopefully this has been clarified.--Ref3rence (talk) 15:50, 20 December 2021 (MST)

• Okay, so regardless, they gain a d4 to their attack whenever they size up. So if 2 small swarms that do 2d4+3 combine, the new swarm will do 3d4+6? Just want to make sure I have this right. Sorry to be a bother ~~ GentlestGolemn ~~(talk) 23:47, 20 December 2021 (MST)

No worries. Creatures' actions work the same way as player characters, and since the insects use Dexterity for their bites, unless they gain an effect that increases their Dexterity or damage rolls, it would still only be +3.--Ref3rence (talk) 14:13, 21 December 2021 (MST)

• Also For the Floating Bugs jutsu, I assume it makes Opertunity attacks basically non-existent for the minute? ~~ GentlestGolemn ~~(talk) 00:08, 21 December 2021 (MST)

Not necessarily, since even if you may make unarmed strikes as a ranged attack, you may also make them as melee attacks as usual.--Ref3rence (talk) 14:13, 21 December 2021 (MST)

• for the question about bite damage and swarm combining above, I don't think I'm seeing the changes you made. I see it says they get the best of both swarms features. does this meam the modifiers stack but the dice only increase by one count since that is detailed later? If two small swarms with bites of +3 to attack and 4d4+3 bite damage combine, how would the bite look then? ~~ GentlestGolemn ~~(talk) 01:31, 30 December 2021 (MST)

Features and ability scores aren't the same thing, so when swarms combine, the only thing that changes is their size and damage die, but if one has something like Sage Mode or Lightning Cloak for what ever reason, they would still be effected by it as the combined swarm, otherwise their modifiers don't change because their Dexterity and proficiency does not change. Two Small swarms with +3 to hit and 4d4+3 bite damage would make a Medium swarm with +3 to hit and 5d4+3 bite damage.--Ref3rence (talk) 09:32, 30 December 2021 (MST)

• It looks like the only jutsu that can upcast in this path are ones that add additional targets. You might want to consider options to upcast for damage as well, since rn the only scaling is from swarm buffs and this path focuses heavily on its own jutsu. ~~ GentlestGolemn ~~(talk) 19:00, 2 January 2022 (MST)
• Also if the swarms only gain dice dmg, that +3 to hit is gonna be a real problem when fighting enemies made for level 20 pcs. ~~ GentlestGolemn ~~(talk) 01:18, 3 January 2022 (MST)

Hopefully the attack bonus issue has been rectified. As for the jutsu issue, while I completely understand where you're coming from, there aren't a whole lot of jutsu that would make sense for that. The majority are either tactical choices, damage over time like Insect Tornado, or already have a high cost like Parasitic Giant Insect. If building for damage is an insect-nin's main concern, Insect Amp and Rinkaichu can honestly shred using any jutsu that uses bite damage.--Ref3rence (talk) 11:44, 3 January 2022 (MST)

For the insect clone technique jutsu, is that swarm still limited to the same 5 minute timer as regular swarms? -- 1kili2 00:07, 21 October 2022 (CET)

Yes, since the only thing that changes is the swarm’s appearance.—Ref3rence (talk) 10:07, 24 November 2022 (MST)

We are finally about to reach lvl 10 in our campaign and I wanna prepare for combining swarms because its not fully clear to me, a regular swarm is small and I need to combine 2 to make it medium sized, but after this point do I just combine this with a 3rd small swarm to make it large or do I need to make a secondary medium swarm first and then combine the 2 medium swarms? -- 1kili2 01:29, 28 march 2023 (CET)

You can do either, with the only real difference being how many chakra and hit points the resulting swarm has. As long as it is a swarm that is yours, it can be combined with another swarm.--Ref3rence (talk) 20:34, 27 March 2023 (MDT)

For the 3rd Level feature Hive Body it specifies "Your swarms' bites count as unarmed strikes for all of your features and jutsu except Martial Arts". The confusion me and my player are having is in regards to jutsu that buff/alter/etc. unarmed strikes. Examples: 1. Missile Fist from Steel style states: "As a bonus action while Impervious Armor is active, you convert your fists into piston-like appendages. For as long as Impervious Armor remains active, you may reroll your unarmed strikes' damage rolls, taking the higher of the two results." 2. Welcoming Approach: Thousand-Armed Murder from Taijutsu: "As a bonus action, you create an angelic, thousand-armed being from your chakra. Until the beginning of your next turn, when you take the attack action, you can not make ranged or weapon attacks, but your unarmed strikes gain an additional 15 feet of reach and you may attack 3 additional times." 3. Floating Bugs from Insect-Nin Unique Jutsu: "As a bonus action, you prepare a large amount of insects in your hands. For this jutsu's duration, you may make unarmed strikes as ranged attacks with a range of 30/60 feet."

does this mean that the 3 examples above affect the swarm's bite when cast by or on the player?

OR are me and my player completely misunderstanding the "Your swarms' bites count as unarmed strikes for all of your features and jutsu except Martial Arts" and it is implying that any jutsu that specifies unarmed strikes could also be cast upon the swarm and affect their bite? -CleverNot 21:38, 2 April, 2023 (EST)

Since all three of these examples affect your unarmed strikes and aren't the Martial Arts feature, they can affect your swarms' bite attacks.--Ref3rence (talk) 21:03, 2 April 2023 (MDT)

When using the 10th lvl feature of the insect-nin subclass to combine a swarm of Rinkaichu with another swarm, does this bigger swarm still need to end its turn in the space of another creature or since its technically in the space with the other swarm is it fine to just move about? -1kili2 22:30, 14th may 2023 (CET)

Since the swarm has "both swarm's features", it would keep the Rinkaichu's need to end its turn in the space of another creature.--Ref3rence (talk) 21:41, 14 May 2023 (MDT)

Question, back again with a silly one. i know you can cast a jutsu effectively through your swarm, using your own chakra pool. could a swarm cast a jutsu using its own chakra pool? do swarms know the jutsu you know? - CleverNot 20:18, 12 November 2023 EST

Sorry for the delay, I've been focused on a lot of other projects lately. RAW, swarms don't know your jutsu so they can't spend their chakra casting them, and their chakra mainly serves the purpose of covering the battlefield with Poison Cloud. At the DM's discretion, however, it wouldn't be out of the realm of balance since chakra acts kinda like hit points for swarms anyway.--Ref3rence (talk) 21:33, 15 November 2023 (MST)