Talk:Path of Hatred (Shinobi World Supplement)

Mangekyo, Kamui, Susano'o

I feel like EMS should be a bit more attainable than a boon, otherwise most of these features can't really be used. Or at least lower the con dc, it took years for itachi to go blind and it wasn't like he didn't use his mangekeyou abilities. I'll grant that Sasuke was going blind much faster, but even despite him spamming his mangekyou abilities like he forgot he had other powers he still didn't go fully blind before taking Itachi's eyes.

Also feels like visual genjutsu should give you advantage or your target disadvantage.

While Sasuke didn't go fully blind, he very nearly did. Still, 16 is a bit much. As for Visual Genjutsu, it nearly doubles a jutsu's range, and allows you to bypass condition immunity, which can be a big deal in the action economy. Advantage/disadvantage on every genjutsu you cast at 7th level would be too much, and would make Ephemeral useless.--Ref3rence (talk) 11:52, 19 January 2023 (MST)

Sorry I didn't mean plus the other thing I meant instead of bypassing immunity. Since that isn't really what sharingan does. Aside from tsukuyomi and kotomatsukami sharingan genjutsu don't work against people with the ability to see through genjutsu, so it doesn't bypass immunity, it just makes them stronger and thus more likely to succeed against someone the jutsu can affect. As for making ephemeral useless, doesn't that make sense? Normal genjutsu users have to train much harder just to imitate some of the stuff sharingan users can do. Look at Itachi vs Kurenai.

Making Ephemaral useless would make sense if Itachi wasn't its only user. The point of bypassing immunity is that visual genjutsu is implied to be the only way to control a Tailed Beast (though it seems I forgot to make them immune to certain conditions, which I plan to fix in the near future).--Ref3rence (talk) 12:45, 19 January 2023 (MST)

Where in Naruto does it ever say the tailed beast are immune to genjutsu? Also Itachi isn't the only one we see use the sharingan to cast stronger genjutsu. We've seen Kakashi use his sharingan to cast a quick genjutsu, and even seen Sasuke has used it on occasion. Plus it's referenced all the time.

Itachi is the only one who uses Ephemeral even while his sharingan is active, that's my bad for poor phrasing but that point still stands. While it's never outright stated that the Tailed Beasts are immune to genjutsu, Fugaku believes that the sharingan is the only genjutsu capable of controlling the Nine-Tails. Also, this isn't about ignoring immunity to genjutsu, it's about ignoring immunity to conditions granted by the used genjutsu. For instance, even if a creature has some sort of extrasensory capabilities that would make them immune to being blinded, a strong genjutsu directly altering your perception could bypass it.--Ref3rence (talk) 16:17, 19 January 2023 (MST)

I kind of feel like that's the point of genjutsu as a whole though. Like this being is too big to actually restrain, so you affect it's mind to make it act constrained. Also Hisashi also said that byakugan is the strongest doujutsu, so perhaps clan leaders talking about their unique abilities might not be the most reliable source. Plus I get the feeling that isn't exactly a oh you have the sharingan you can do this now kind of thing. Other wise I feel like Hashirama's capturing of the tailed beasts isn't all that immpressive. Since any uchiha with a matured sharingan would be able to do it.

The purpose of genjutsu within this class is to apply conditions to multiple targets to control the battlefield, without Visual Genjutsu there's no mechanic for bypassing immunity, nor should there be without extra cost for balance reasons. Also, Fugaku is a more reliable source for information comparably, as Hisashi was effectively bragging, while Fugaku's use of the sharingan to control the Nine-Tails was the core of the coup's plan. Regardless, getting off this meandering road and back to the core issue, I still don't see why visual genjutsu should inherently grant advantage. At its core, the sharingan should have some bonus to genjutsu, but full advantage/disadvantage just doesn't fit with the rest of the setting's or base 5e's sandbox.--Ref3rence (talk) 19:03, 19 January 2023 (MST)

Idk, it just feels like that's the difference between sharingan genjutsu and regular genjutsu to me. Sharingan jutsu is stronger which means more likely to take effect, and harder to break out of.

So Kamui is a little different then the other mangekyou abilities in that it can do a lot of different things, so I think it should be short range Kamui grants access to path specific jutsu requiring short range kamui, and same for long range. Also it doesn't make much sense to have long range kamui be a requirement for short range. I mean Obito seemed to function fine without the long range eye. Some examples for Kamui jutsu would be transfering objects, where the bigger the object the higher the cost. Also using Kamui to teleport should be one jutsu rather than having to cast kamui twice. especially when control object has it's cheaper portal ability, I'd say you would need both eyes to actually open a portal for kamui, just one let's you move 1 or 2 people close by or far away. It feels like all of the different uses shouldn't just have 1 blanket cost. Although that would take up a lot of jutsu slots, maybe do it like basic ninjutsu 2 jutsu for the price of 1. Also maybe it's just me, but kamui syncronizations seems a little unclear, can the portal still be used for a place on the same plane? Unrelated, but if you use Izanagi with a mangekyou, and then replace it with another mangekyou do you still get Ems, and if you do does it have the eye's original power like normal?

Long-Range Kamui is a requirement for Short-Range Kamui for the sake of investment. Short-Range Kamui, even if broken up into multiple unique jutsu as you suggest, is still arguably the most powerful Mangekyō ability, so it keeps players from pairing Kamui Phasing with Amaterasu too early, or some other wacky combo. Obito unlocked Long- and Short-Range Kamui at the same time (he had connection to Kakashi's borrowed eye in the flashback where it evolved), so even if he lost Long-Range, he still has and can cast Short-Range. Kamui's teleportation is more expensive because it's one of a few effects possible in Short-Range, while it's Final Spacetime's whole deal. Short-Range itself only does 2 things: puts you into Kamui and takes things out of Kamui, so there's not much to break up that hasn't already been. Kamui Synch has been revised. As for EMS, RAW you already have the Mangekyō feature, so EMS's prereq is fulfilled. RAI, I'd personally say you'd still get EMS, but I could see another DM arguing the opposite.--Ref3rence (talk) 19:03, 19 January 2023 (MST)

It's true that it's taking things in and putting them out, but there are a lot of different ways to use that, as shown by Obito's eatherial trick. Like for example a reaction to teleport in front of someone else to take an attack, or with long range to make a ranged weapon or spell dissappear into kamui like when Obito saved Kakashi. These while the same ability feel like they should have different chakra costs, and the difference with the portal vs kamui teleporting is A. duration, and B number of targets. Since short range can only affect you and one other target, while a portal can get any number and stays open longer. Also doing it this way limits how op Kamui is, because you have to train to master the more difficult tricks ie learning the jutsu.

Kamui Phasing and Kamui Synchronization is already a Path of Hatred Unique Jutsu, and I can't recall Kamui ever being used to quickly teleport in front of someone (nor does it seem to me like something justified with how the ability works). That being said, Kakashi's use of Kamui in the Pain Arc should definitely have been adapted by now, that's my bad.--Ref3rence (talk) 15:11, 24 January 2023 (MST)

I just mean like putting a small object in or out of Kamui shouldn't be the same chakra cost as putting a person into it. Also we've seen Obito teleport pretty quickly, so while neither of them have done that it just feels like it could be possible. Plus you have the kamui speed thing Kakashi did where he threw things and then used Kamui to make them appear all around his opponent.--Azura (talk) 13:04, 25 January 2023 (MST)

I've tweaked some wording, but the main balancing factor is that it takes significantly longer to put a person into Kamui. Also, the handful of times we see Obito transfer himself into Kamui, it takes a few seconds at least. I also don't recognize Kakashi's "kamui speed thing", which fight was it in? It kinda sounds like something from one of the games, is there a wiki article you can link to?--Ref3rence (talk) 17:33, 25 January 2023 (MST)

It is from a game, it's from ultimate ninja storm 4, it's called lightning blade speed. I couldn't find a wiki page, but it's on youtube.--Azura (talk) 17:44, 25 January 2023 (MST)

I was able to find an article here, but did end up needing to find a video to fully grasp how it works. Should be on page now.--Ref3rence (talk) 21:04, 25 January 2023 (MST)

So Kamui's pretty much as accurate as it can be now, excellent job adjusting short range Kamui, definitely think it's nicer than the jutsu split I had proposed. Only thing I'd say is for long range kamui add the option to choose to fail the save. Like say you wanted to evacuate your party to Kamui all they'd have to do is stay still. Although you'd have to have synchronization to get them out raw I think.--Azura (talk) 14:01, 26 January 2023 (MST)

Short answer, it already kinda is. Saving throws are described as "an attempt to resist" in the rules, so it'd be reasonable to not make that attempt, and while it's not explicitly stated in the rules, I've always allowed it. The only reason it's not stated here is so I don't have to put it on every jutsu.--Ref3rence (talk) 17:27, 26 January 2023 (MST)

got you, I just know some spells have it explicetely written, so I assumed that it wasn't the case unless written.

I don't think perfect susanoo should be a mangekyou ability, Since Kakashi was able to use it, and Obito's eyes weren't even EMS. Still, it should probably be a feat or have some special unlock conditions, like training for a number of months equal to 9 - int mod or something along those lines.--Azura (talk) 07:38, 21 January 2023 (MST)

Complete Body - Susano'o was initially made a Mangekyō ability for two reasons. Mechanically, it's supposed to be the go-to option for Mangekyō Master, which would explain why DMS Kakashi was able to use it (though I have been meaning to increase his CR for a while to reflect this). As for the lore justification, Madara isn't shown having a Mangekyō ability, but is shown using Complete Body - Susano'o in the fight immediately after he gets EMS, and this was the closest I could come to justifying that. As for making it a feat, it already requires investment (again, it's meant to be the main thing you take with Mangekyō Master), and doing so would make it inaccessible to players not using the Beyond 20th level variant rule without boons (which I guess wouldn't be the worst thing, but in that case we already have Mangekyō Master to fill that role). As for the months of training option, this doesn't feel like a satisfying option within the canon, where it's almost shown as the opposite (you either gain it without training like Madara and Sasuke or you never gain it at all like Itachi (and Shisui in some continuities), and mechanically it just means you take some downtime and get much stronger without effort. The best option for changing it I can see is having it replace Mangekyō Master, but that would remove the possibilities for things like a player that wants to focus on Mangekyō instead of Susano'o, or what we see in the War Arc with each Kamui eye effectively doing the same thing.--Ref3rence (talk) 15:11, 24 January 2023 (MST)

I'd say we do see Sasuke training his Susanoo, because it takes him a while to get to perfect form, but yeah Kakashi speed ran it.The biggest issue I have with it though is that Madara used his perfect Susanoo when he didn't have any eyes. So clearly it isn't tied to his eyes, because he didn't have any. I agree that mechanically it needs to be harder to get, but it doesn't make sense to have it attatched to they eyes.--Azura (talk) 13:04, 25 January 2023 (MST)

We see Sasuke train his Susano'o, but not for months on end. Also, I just rewatched the blind Madara fight, and he only uses his Humanoid Susano'o (though it might be different in the manga?). Regardless, I don't think it'd be the worst thing in the world to just add a clause that the original user doesn't lose Complete Body - Susano'o if they lose their Mangekyō.--Ref3rence (talk) 17:33, 25 January 2023 (MST)

That's fair, especially since we never actually se an mangekyou with 2 abilities anyway.--Azura (talk) 17:44, 25 January 2023 (MST)

So not a suggestion based on anything in the show, or because it's mechanically necessary, I just think it would be cool. An extra ability, where instead of manifesting a full Susanoo you just manifest the armor over your own body. So you are your normal size, and lose the bonuses to reach and the additional hp, but in exchange you get a boost to movement speed and ac. Just a thought, because I personally think it's always badass in anime's when a giant thing shrinks, and then it's still super badass, just now it's not as big a target. I'd say for path of beast too, but that's pretty much what baryon mode and the tailed beast cloaks already are.--Azura (talk) 15:12, 25 January 2023 (MST)

That sound like it could be fun. I've omitted the AC bonus and kept the temporary hit points, since the Sharingan already grants a pretty sizeable AC bonus, and you're using the same amount of chakra.--Ref3rence (talk) 17:33, 25 January 2023 (MST)

So Yeah getting rid of the ac bonus is fair, especicially since I picture using this with lightning cloak for extra bad assery, but 2 chakra isn't very expensive, so splitting it in half isn't a huge boon. I feel like a movement speed bonus wouldn't really unbalance this. Especially since you can't use it to protect or move people anymore. Also just to clarify it's abilities other than size related are the same as whatever form of susanoo you would choose to activate it with right? Also just realized this has it listed as a Mangekyou power, but I kind of thought it would be like a jutsu. Since it's just a different way to wield the power the Mangekyou already has. Unless you wanted it to be kind of a 1 or the other thing with perfect susanoo. Which could work, have it's temp hit points be lower, but have a flight speed of 120. That would be kind of cool. Some susanoo users attain mastery with the perfect form, others do it it by condensing it into the knight form. Either way works for me. I'd probably prefer the jutsu route so I could use either or depending on the situation, but the other thing would add some variation, not that there isn't plenty of that already. Just seems like right now, you'd be taking a mangekyou ability that saves you 1 chakra a turn at the cost of a huge bonus to reach and melee, an even bigger bonus to ranged options, and the ability to protect others gaining their special power boosts in the process. Seems like a big sacrifice to me.--Azura (talk) 17:57, 25 January 2023 (MST)

I'm also not sure what you mean about it taking away melee and ranged options, since it only effects size category and reach bonuses, you keep your Susano'o weapons. Still, I guess a bonus to movement speed wouldn't change things too much.--Ref3rence (talk) 00:39, 28 January 2023 (MST)

Typo I meant reach with melee. As for ranged I thought the size was why the ranged weapons had such a huge increase to range, if that doesn't go away fair enough, but seems a little odd. Also my biggest thing is that you have to take 3 mangekyou abilities to give susanoo knight a fly speed. I pictured it as like a condensed version of perfect susanoo. So either like a jutsu you can take that basically does what it does now, or as an alterate. Where say temp hit points are only 60 but it has a fly speed of 120. Also of course lose the ability to grant it to another creature.--Azura (talk) 08:18, 28 January 2023 (MST)

I don't see why Susano'o Armor should have the effects of Complete Body - Susano'o if the user doesn't have Complete Body - Susano'o in the first place. The ability to use Susano'o without being 1000 feet tall has a lot of applications (you can fight indoors, you can benefit from cover, you can snipe someone with a Susano'o longbow from 1200 feet away without anyone noticing), so making it a jutsu would necessitate making it weaker.--Ref3rence (talk) 11:32, 28 January 2023 (MST)

I'm still not sure how the weapons would keep their reach without the size bonus. I honestly didn't intend that part to be kept. The only effect I really want it to have of perfect is flight speed really. It's meant to be like a fast and furious instead of huge and wide spread. I feel like sacrificing the range boost on susanoo weapons is reasonable, and you can have it take a dip in temp hitpoints as well. I also don't feel like having it as an alternate ability to perfect is unreasonable your giving up some hitpoints the ability to share it with others or be boosted by others, their are benefits to big sizing as well which are also given up, and like I said I never intended for the susanoo weapons to keep their range bonuses since that doesn't really make sense to me. Their damage bonus stays because they are chakra weapons, but I'd reduce their range to normal for whatever weapon it is. If it's a jutsu, it has an extra chakra cost to activate, which is fair because you could switch between them. If it's an alternate feat, than you are trading out the ability to go perfect form which while slower has lots of other benefits, especially in a team.--Azura (talk) 12:09, 28 January 2023 (MST)

Fair enough, if you're giving up that much it might as well be a unique jutsu.--Ref3rence (talk) 09:27, 29 January 2023 (MST)

So can't it keep the bonus to movement speed? The chakra reduction is nice, but the original intent was for it to sacrifice size and defense for speed.--Azura (talk) 11:21, 29 January 2023 (MST)

I get why you want it to have a movement speed bonus, but I don't see why it should. Susano'o doesn't grant any kind of speed bonus, and from the sounds of it you already have multiple ways of boosting your movement speed. You're trading off size for chakra (which I've added that it includes Indra Susano'o since it was kinda in a gray zone) and being able to use Susano'o in scenarios that you can't be gargantuan in (which even without increased bow range is still a lot).--Ref3rence (talk) 19:27, 29 January 2023 (MST)

What if it halves the temporary hit points? Plus like I said theirs a lot of other bonuses being given up than just the reach. It becomes much less effective in team battles, and it's true there are a ton of things that you can do at normal size that Gargantuan makes difficult, but the opposite is true to. I mean idk if there is a dnd mechanic for this or not, but if multile people are within your swing would they all get hit or just the closest? Either way, I know their is bonuses to how much weight you can carry, so you could drop boulders from the sky, alter the landscape, Grapple people with 1 hand and then toss them off the mountain side. Idk to me it feels like a speed bonus isn't game breaking at that level anyway. Honestly with hiraishin and Kamui it's not like their aren't other options, but it's more for the coolness factor to me. Speaking of I think having armored Susanoo, and susanoo armor might get a little confusing. I call it susanoo knight, but am open to other suggestions.--Azura (talk) 21:16, 29 January 2023 (MST)

There's no mechanic for every creature within your reach being targeted by attacks, unless otherwise stated an attack targets 1 creature. The closest thing to throwing a creature off a cliff would be a shove, which the Susano'o doesn't grant a bonus to, while throwing a boulder would just be a Gargantuan improvised weapon which, I kid you not, would deal 4d4 bludgeoning damage (can't find an on-site link, but each size category increases damage by 1 die). The only benefit to the increased carry weight would be for traveling, but even with the jutsu you wouldn't want to be bleeding 10 chakra each minute. My point stands that sure it's cool, but why would specifically the Susano'o increase your speed, but only when being worn as personal armor?--Ref3rence (talk) 00:03, 30 January 2023 (MST)

Update, I've chosen one of the alternate names for Susano'o from the wiki (though if I had to guess, it probably comes from Shintoism). Doesn't mean it has to be Susano'o Armor's final name, it seemed like too cool of a name to not use.--Ref3rence (talk) 00:37, 30 January 2023 (MST)

So uh in your setting maybe you should fix that. We've definitely seen Kurama use a tail to swipe at like 80 people at once, and a boulder should do more damage than a rock for sure. Maybe since it's falling from high adding the boulders fall damage to whoever it hits. So you can grapple them with one hand, but you can't just use them as an improvised weapon and throw them? They would take fall damage and hit whoever you threw them at. As for the speed, it's mostly because how else does Sasuke keep up with Naruto speed wise? Their base forms were roughly equal, with curse mark helping him keep up with Naruto in his first coupl;e of cloaks. So then when Naruto gets sage mode and kcm1 and 2 how the heck is Sasuke keeping up with him? He lost his curse mark, and we never see him do anything else to boost his physical attributes. So I say the intense chakra from Susanoo can be used to increase his physical abilities just like Kurama's does for Naruto. It's not like Kurama is particularly fast, so the speed boost has to be something Naruto himself does using the chakra Kurama grants him. Which also explains why he got immensely faster mid fight with the Raikage when he had been in kcm the whole time. Essentially when I suggested this, I was thinking of it as a counter the the chakra mode cloak. It would just be a matter of using the chakra diferrently, using the excess chakra to increase your speed. Which is why I didn't originally suggest lessening the chakra cost.--Azura (talk) 06:22, 30 January 2023 (MST)

So we should change the fundamental rules of 5e because you want to power game? Kurama attacking multiple creatures can be easily explained with Multiattack, Tailed Beast Shockwave, or Leaf Gust. Throwing a rock deals 1d4 bludgeoning damage, a boulder deals 4 times than (plus, you already have far better options both mechanically and lore-wise with ranged Susano'o weapons). You are correct that there are no rules for using living creatures you're grappling as ranged weapons, nor should there be as that would make the various jutsu with knockback completely worthless. Also, we're very clearly shown how Sasuke keeps up with Naruto: the Sharingan amps reaction time, which becomes stronger with MS and EMS, and he receives multiple "hatred amps" (which both Obito and Karin deliberately point out) that very much do boost his physical attributes, and after a while (particularly during the latter parts of the Kaguya fight), he doesn't. As for using it as a Bijuu Chakra Mode equivalent, if we let everything do everything, nothing is unique anymore.--Ref3rence (talk) 12:31, 30 January 2023 (MST)

I don't want to power game, like you said for most of it there is better options, but your telling me a giant boulder doing 4 times more damage than a rock makes sense? It doesn't have to be included, I was just saying things that should realistically be doable. Plus several of the paths have a way to get bigger, and even if they don't their are options for it among jutsu, so those things would apply to everyone enemies included. Also I mean knockback is one thing when your normal sized, but when you're the size of a mountain pushing people back 20 ft is kind of... Also amping reaction time has nothing to do with movement speed. It does just that amp his reaction time. I don't remember "hatred amps" From the manga, but Even if that was a thing why would the power ups come after he killed Itachi and Danzo which was where the vast majority of his hate was directed. I said as a counter to chakra mode not the same thing. It still won't have the damage reduction, the red chakra the gift part, the healing, Or the multiple hands thing. Just a speed boost in exchange for losing some temp hp. Also as I just checked the path of beast it's actually the first 2 releases that grant a speed boost. Chakra mode definitely should too. Also Susanoo doesn't even become a thing until lvl 20, so it feels like at 20th level those things aren't exactly uncommon. There are plenty area of effect attacks, I just think it's weird that big creatures don't have most of their attack be aoe. idk I just don't think that movement speed is a big ask with all you're dropping for it. Especially that late in the game. Anyway the big creature stuff I don't really care about, just a throw away comment on what would logically be possible. at 20th level it's not even that big of a deal if you get some extra movement, since their are so many nuts abilities with huge range. Aside from a few specific instances the extra speed would change almost nothing, It's literally an ability that I thought of and would use solely because it's bad ass.--Azura (talk) 14:20, 30 January 2023 (MST)

Sorry for the delay, a lot of work and life stuff came up, plus I realized I was coming off as a bit aggressive and letting myself get sidetracked, which was not my intent. A bolder dealing damage equivalent to a punch from a base Kage-level character makes sense to me, especially with what we see characters like the Sannin do with a single punch. I still don't feel like a speed bonus really fits what the Susano'o is, that being a big suit of chakra armor, maybe it restores/increases temporary hit points or grants a small damage reduction instead?--Ref3rence (talk) 20:12, 2 February 2023 (MST)

If I can't convince you then i can't convince you, but by that logic what part of getting a chakra boost from a giant fox we've seen on multipe occasions is not especially fast makes Naruto the fastest shinobi in the world. Like I said Susanoo is a mass of chakra formed into armor, so if by distributing the extra chakra to your body instead similar to Naruto I don't think it boosting speed would be unrealistic. Like I said adding speed doesn't really change the mechanic much, but adding those actually might. I don't think it really needs to be rebalanced. Like I said speed is more for the cool factor than actual game necessity.--Azura (talk) 07:03, 3 February 2023 (MST)

So if you won't add speed to god of valor, can there be a speed reduction with regular Susanoo that it removes?--Azura (talk) 06:45, 6 February 2023 (MST)

Susano'o doesn't seem to affect the user's speed in either way (excluding CB-S's flight). When you said it was "more for the cool factor than actual game necessity", I had assumed we had come to a conclusion. If it's just for cool factor, narrate your character as moving faster.--Ref3rence (talk) 16:38, 12 February 2023 (MST)

I'd argue Susanoo does affect speed. Unless you want to say that Naruto with Kurama avatar is as fast as kcm. Since Sasuke is shown to more or less keep up with Naruto in terms of speed in both forms I'd say since the avatar form obviously does slow him down, or at least take away the movement boost kcm gives him, then the Susanoo has to do the same, or Sasuke would be purposefully slowing down for Naruto which seems unlikely.--Azura (talk) 21:38, 12 February 2023 (MST)

Does Kurama Avatar slow the user? In the War Arc, both KCM and Kurama Avatar are shown to be more or less equal to Ten-Tails Obito, so I don't see this being the case. One could even argue that Kurama Avatar is a speed amp on top of KCM, since Naruto may have needed a faster form to deflect the five tailed beast balls during his fight with the edo jinchuriki, though I'd personally argue that's a case of scale being needed.--Ref3rence (talk) 11:25, 18 February 2023 (MST)

He can move his body parts quickly enough, but yeah I'd say his movement speed decreases quite a bit. Especially since if he needs to get somewhere quickly he always just goes kcm. If it was faster and he was desperate he'd use avatar, but if hes looking to move about quickly he always just uses kcm. I'd say for both the avatar form and susanoo, they are sacrificing speed for power and protection. Because their attacks are a heck of a lot stronger, and the chakra avatars make a pretty good shield. I feel like if the avatars were the same speed, then Sasuke and Naruto would have no reason to switch back to their smaller forms so much. Especially in the middle of some pretty major fights.--Azura (talk) 07:14, 19 February 2023 (MST)

Replication

Question about replication, if you want to memorize a jutsu but your limit is full can you chose to forget one of the currently memorized techniques? Also, could there be a rule for jutsu only, that let's you permenently learn the jutsu so long as you have the nature for it. Like a wizard spell book. Since Kakashi uses several of his copied jutsu without his sharingan active. Maybe a you have to use the jutsu 100 times, or something like that.

I've added a line to the Chakra feature that jutsu gained from path features do not count toward your jutsu limit that was lost in an edit a while ago, which should solve the first issue. As for the other, I've added it as an alternate feature, as it shouldn't be too strong with the limitations.--Ref3rence (talk) 17:27, 26 January 2023 (MST)

So that wasn't quite what I meant, but I love the new feature! I meant like the 1 + int(min 1) limit. now int x 2 limit as well. Like if I want to copy a jutsu and it's full can I drop 1 of the old ones.--Azura (talk) 06:10, 27 January 2023 (MST)

That'd have to be something decided for jutsu as a whole, but I'm leaning toward no. Once you know something, you know it; it's part of your brain, you can't change it like you can a spellbook.--Ref3rence (talk) 00:45, 28 January 2023 (MST)

I suppose with how the rules are worded now, if you were at your maximum copied jutsu, you could theoretically decrease your Intelligence modifier, decreasing your maximum known jutsu and causing you to "lose access to jutsu", allowing you to pick new jutsu, but that's entirely theorycraft and would have to be cleared by your DM first.--Ref3rence (talk) 00:49, 28 January 2023 (MST)

I mean yeah, but that wouldn't be the only thing that doesn't make logical sense. Like if you lose your sharingan you can take a number of jutsu equal to the path only jutsu you lost. Mechanically it makes sense, but logically? Also if we're talking naruto world realism realism there wouldn't be a limit in the first place. Kakashi was known to have copied over 1000 jutsu, and used the sharingan to help him learn natures he didn't know to the point where he is extremely skilled in all 5 on top of knowing some fuinjutsu, and tons of basic ninjutsu. The only way I can think of to make that mechaniclly feasible though is to do prepared jutsu like wizards do. They can only have a certain number of the jutsu copied with sharingan prepared for the day. So sharingan jutsu would be on a seperate list unless you actually used a learn jutsu slot to take it yourself.--Azura (talk) 08:25, 28 January 2023 (MST)

Having to prepare copied jutsu could be fun, and wouldn't be the least balanced thing the world I suppose.--Ref3rence (talk) 11:32, 28 January 2023 (MST)

I think I actually have a pretty good wording for it. 'At 10th level, you have gained the third and final tomoe. While your Sharingan is active, the bonus to your AC increases to +3. Additionally, when a creature you can see within 100 feet of you uses a hand seal jutsu, you may analyze it as a reaction. You learn the jutsu's nature, cost, range, and effects. You may spend 5 chakra to copy the jutsu if you have its requirements, or 10 if it is a standard elemental jutsu you don't have the nature for. Learning a jutsu in this way does not count as knowing its nature. If you cast a jutsu using a nature you do not know it takes a -3 penalty to attack roll, damage, and/or dc. At the end of each long rest, you may prepare a number of copied jutsu equal to your Intelligence modifier (minimum 1), allowing you to cast it until the end of your next long rest. You may increase this maximum by 2 as a Chakra Nature Alternative or [[Advanced Training. If the jutsu you are analyzing is a jutsu you already know, even if it's not prepared, you may cancel it out by casting the same jutsu to negate it, however you must pay the copy cost + the cost of the jutsu to do so.' I think that covers pretty much everything we've seen it do, without being unbalanced. What do you think?--Azura (talk) 12:09, 28 January 2023 (MST)

But we never see any Sharingan user copy jutsu from a nature they can't already perform. Sasuke only copies taijutsu, while Kakashi is an Itachi/Minato-level prodigy when it comes to ninjutsu so it's likely (and arguably implied by his databook profiles) that he naturally has access to every basic chakra nature.--Ref3rence (talk) 09:27, 29 January 2023 (MST)

So actually no, we know that aside from kekkai genkai users being born with even 2 natural affinities is extremely rare, and learning to use natures you don't have a natural affinity for takes even the most talented shinobi like sarutobi the proffessor decades at least to learn the 3 he didn't have natural affinity for. Besides we know Kakashi's only natural affinity is lightning. He says so himself. He is extremely talented, but the sharingan made his accelertated learning of other natures possible, since he was able to watch the chakra being molded and copy the jutsu. From their he practiced with the nature until he was capable of using it even aside from the copied jutsu. Granted aside from knowing his natural affinity is lightning the rest of that is implied. But the rinnegan granting natural affinity to all 5 natures is a big deal for a reason. As for the other sharingan users, Sasuke didn't have 3 tomoe yet when he was still using it to copy, and in Shippuden sharingan pretty much devolved into being the pre form of the Mangekyou. I mean the only time we get copying is an implication, since their would be no other way for madara to already know wood style jutsu even if he had the nature.--Azura (talk) 11:17, 29 January 2023 (MST)

Being born with more than 1 natural affinity is rare, but that's not what I'm talking about, since we know that Kakashi has Lightning Style affinity alone. I'm not sure where you're getting that Hiruzen had 2 affinities, since at the most you could assume he had affinity in Fire Style like the rest of his clan. The same databooks list the first 3 Hokage as users of every basic nature transformation, while 24 year old Minato who died 2 years younger than beginning of series Kakashi was only missing Water and Earth Style while also mastering Sage Mode and fuinjutsu while developing more advanced basic ninjutsu than Tobirama. It's entirely possible for 26 year old Kakashi, who graduated from the Academy 5 years younger than Minato, to have learned every basic nature transformation completely naturally. If you can point to an instance where Kakashi states that he uses his Sharingan to train his ninjutsu (not including Chidori for multiple obvious reasons), then I'd take it as implied that he could have used it to learn new natures, but to my knowledge no such thing is ever stated.--Ref3rence (talk) 19:27, 29 January 2023 (MST)

Hiruzern had an earth affinity as well I believe. Where is it said minato can use lightning and fire style? Also when was it said Tobiram and Hashirama could use every style? I'd like to note that data books are typically horrendously innacurate, for example, In a data book they gave combat rankings, and Guy was ranked significantly lower than Kurenai. He explains how the Sharingan works, he said he was able to watch how they molded their chakra, and that helped him mold it in the same way in reference to copying a jutsu. By no means am I saying he couldn't have done it without the sharingan, but I do think that it would have taken him a lot longer without the solid foundation it granted him. If it was something anyone with talent could do than everyone wouldn't have been so immpressed with Sarutobi. Since that was his big thing in the great war. He had achieved mastury in all the basic ninjutsu elements. If it was so easy for people to learn the basic ninjutsu elements they wouldn't have bothered giving the Rinnegan that ability. The reason it's powerful, is because it allows the wielder to skip decades of training. Sharingan on the other hand only helps speed up the process. The training still has to be done. Hence why they can copy the jutsu, but it's imperfect until they master the nature. Which is why I placed a penalty on both copy cost and the jutsu itself.--Azura (talk) 21:16, 29 January 2023 (MST)

I started typing this out and then realized looking at it gave me a headache, so I've split it into 3 sections for easy reading. None of the sources I've found, nor the manga, state that Hiruzen had Earth Style affinity, only that he could use it. Guy's overall stats are 1-1.5 points higher than Kurenai's (29/29.5 vs 31.5, easily found on the Naruto wiki), so I'm not sure where you're getting the "horribly inaccurate" part (especially when they were partially written by Kishimoto himself). Even if there was an oddball like that, it still wouldn't necessarily prove your point, since there's always the argument that they work like stand stats from JJBA, in which one's abilities are relatively in each area, rather than across characters (i.e. Lee and Guy could both be 5s in Taijutsu because of how much higher their skill in it is compared to everything else they can do, but wouldn't mean Lee's Taijutsu is equal to Guy's Taijutsu).--Ref3rence (talk) 00:03, 30 January 2023 (MST)

It was one of the older ones, and it was innacurate because he had a 5 in taijutsu and she had a 5 in genjutsu and then her Ninjutsu was higher which edged him out. Which is rediculous because she handily lost to Itachi, and he stood toe to toe with 10 tailed jinchuriki Madara. Granted that was with a 1 time use power up. I'm just saying it's not uncommon for databooks to say something that's proven untrue later.

Except I have their databook stats pulled up, and even the first databook gives her an overall ranking of 29, which is still lower than Guy's 31.5, and even then she's only so close because of her Genjutsu (her only 5), Ninjutsu, Intelligence, and Hand Seals, while Guy has a 5 in Tai, Strength, Speed, and Stamina. In other words, even with more rounded stats, Kurenai is still ranked lower. Just because Kurenai redshirts for Itachi doesn't mean she isn't the Leaf Village's Genjutsu expert. Even if we grant your premise that Kurenai's stat total is higher than Guy's (which it outright isn't, I seriously don't get where you're getting this), that still doesn't address the stand stats-like interpretation, which only seems more supported by Kurenai's 5 not being equal to Guy's 5. You can't just posit that "it's not uncommon for databooks to say something that's proven untrue later", you have to substantiate that claim.--Ref3rence (talk) 12:31, 30 January 2023 (MST)

I swear I read a physical copy that had her higher once, but maybe I'm nuts or I got names mixed up. I'm pretty bad with names when they're normal, other language names are especially rough for me. While I totally agree with you about some 5's being different than other 5's that's exactly what I mean. They are real generalized, and super simplified to be easily understood by the biggest audience. When I say innacurate I don't mean they outright lie, I mean things like how Tobirama was originally stated to have his big thing be unheard of mastery of water style, but it was later decided that his big thing was being the one who created all the jutsu the 4th was famous for, aside from rasengan. It's been a while since I read the manga, but I'm pretty sure Tobirama's contribution to the war wasn't water style. If anything Mei's water style feats were more immpressive. Like they obviously can't spoil things from later on in the data books.

I mean, he did cut the God Tree's roots with a Water Style jutsu and his ability to create a Water Dragon without an existing water source during the Warring States Era is implied to take a ton of skill, but I get where you're coming from in that regard. Still, just because the databooks represent older versions of concepts that would be expanded on or changed later doesn't mean that everything, or even most things in them is "horrendously innacurate". Hashirama is treated as an unsurpassable God of Shinobi, while Tobirama is known for creating vast amounts of forbidden jutsu, so it's not unlikely that their chakra natures are still accurate, even if Hashirama never has a need to use Fire Style (especially when he used genjutsu in the manga, which I've always found odd) etc.--Ref3rence (talk) 20:12, 2 February 2023 (MST)

Also, I'm not saying mastering all 5 elements isn't impressive, I'm saying Kakashi is that impressive, since he had genius relative to, if not superior to, Minato and Itachi, who are widely considered two of the most gifted characters in the verse. Also, just so I know I'm understanding your point, mastering every basic transformation is a big deal, unless you have a sharingan? Because that would include most of the Uchiha clan, and I don't think it was full of prime Hiruzens, especially not if the Senju clan could beat them so hard most defected. Additionally, if the sharingan could automatically copy any nature transformation it witnessed, there's no reason it wouldn't be able to copy Kekkei Genkai natures, even though it clearly can't. On top of that, during Naruto's Rasenshuriken training in Shippuden (chapter 319 of the manga, sorry this took so long to track down), Kakashi states that it took Sasuke "a few days to achieve the lightning change in nature" during his Chidori training (note the use of achieve, not master). If learning a new nature was as simple as seeing it once with your Sharingan (which Sasuke already knew how to do after copying Lee's taijutsu), he wouldn't have had to train to learn Lightning Style.

I didn't say they instantly knew the nature, I'm saying they could use it as the guide. Knowing certain jutsu in any nature doesn't mean they can use the nature as a whole. Also it took Sasuke a few days that's the important part days. Even Naruto with hundreds of shadow clones took longer than that, and learning straight nature manipulation is supposed to be a jonin level skill that takes years. He learned a jutsu that is essentially the pinnacle of straight lightning manipulation in a few days. I don't think he would have been able to do that without the sharingan. Kekkai genkai require special kind of Chakra just like doujutsu. The Sharingan wielder still wouldn't have the special chakra even if they knew what it looked like. It's my theory that all the nature Kekkai genkais are the same, just the ability to merge your natural affinities, and are only represented as different because the people have different natural affinities. Also keep in mind Sasuke's sharingan was not fully matured at that point, and chidori doesn't use hand seals. So he knows what he needs to do, but he still has to practice moulding his chakra in that way. Like I said though learning 1 or 2 jutsu doesn't actually mean they have the nature down pat. Kakashi still had to train to master all the natures to the point he could create his own jutsu for all of them, He just had a better starting point then most, because he actually saw what it was he needed to achieve. I think learning them all would have taken him longer without the Sharingan, but the time from learning the natures to reaching mastery would probably be the same. Also pretty much however you look at it Kakashi is our only real frame of referance for what the base Sharingan can actually do. The actual Uchiha's don't use it for shit except looking badass. Don't get me wrong even with Sharingan Kakashi's achievment's are immpressive, and show an immpressive dedication to his training. Learning a nature and mastering it are 2 very different things, same as learning a jutsu, or learning the very nature it comes from.--Azura (talk) 06:22, 30 January 2023 (MST)

Except Sasuke is a prodigy in about six different ways, even more so than Kakashi who should be relative to Minato in intelligence. It took Naruto roughly 4 days to go from not even knowing what his natural affinity was to fully developing the Rasenshuriken, while Sasuke had a month and only learned 1 Lightning Style jutsu that Kakashi already knew (also, technically Kirin is referred to as the pinnacle of Lightning Style, but it's arguable that multiple other jutsu are more advanced than that), despite the Sharingan's replication abilities. We are told outright that the only special thing about Kekkei Genkai natures is that you're molding two basic natures into the same jutsu (which could be compared to the Rasenshuriken's "looking left and right" schtick for every jutsu), but if the Sharingan can just copy that nature transformation it shouldn't be unobtainable, regardless of your theory. During Sasuke's first use of the Chidori during the Chunin Exams does use hand seals, which is expanded on in the anime, but if it didn't he wouldn't have been able to copy it in the first place, making your whole point moot since he wouldn't have been able to partially learn Lightning Style from Kakashi. You also still haven't shown why it would have taken longer for Kakashi to learn all 5 basic natures without the Sharingan, since again, Minato mastered fuinjutsu, Sage Mode, and 3 of the 5 basic natures by 24 after graduating the Academy at 10, where as Kakashi starts the series at 26 and graduated at the age of 5; it's entirely within his ability to have done so. The Uchiha clan was stated to be relative to the Hyuga clan at their peak without any kind of Hiden, so your vitriol toward them is pretty much entirely unfounded. Your point was that Uchiha should be able to poorly use every nature transformation, my point is that Sasuke, Indra's reincarnate trained by the best Replication user training with a strong conviction (which is a big deal in the franchise, look at Kakashi's War Arc amp, Naruto's Rasengan training), still needed a few days to use Lightning Style in the first place, and an entire month month to master a single A-rank jutsu regardless of Replication.--Ref3rence (talk) 12:31, 30 January 2023 (MST)

So first I feel like I need to apologize, because if you think I have any vitriol towards the Uchiha I'm clearly using words that are way stronger than I mean. Let's look at your example. Talent wise I'd say Kakashi and Itachi were pretty close right? But I'm not sure we ever see Itachi copy anything. My point wasn't that the Uchiha's were weak. It was that they were confident enough in their clan skills they didn't even try to use it the way Kakashi did. Why would they, when they have so many powerful techniques on their own. So do I think the Uchiha underutalized the sharingan? Yes. Do I think they were weak? Absolutely not. Also Sasuke was originally said to be much less talented than Itachi, or at the very least their father believed it. His sharingan wasn't even fully matured when he learned the chidori he only had 2 tomoe, so that's part of why it took so long, and the other part was that his body was too weak. He had to train his body to be strong enough to handle the speed he'd need to reach. It's like having the answer sheet in front of you. You can see what you need to get to, but you still have to work to reach it. That's what I mean by it helping Kakashi learn faster. He could clearly see the end result, which saves time on the trial and error most would have to go through. Also your comparing 12 year old Sasuke to 15 year old Naruto Who had hundreds of clones. So his 4 days would be most people's year, and Naruto's no slouch when it comes to talent either. Also you keep saying thing like a jutsu and a chakra nature are one and the same, but they aren't. A person can use a jutsu withou having fully learned the nature, it just may not be as powerful. Also I still don't remember it ever being said that Minato could use lightning and fire, and even wind was more immplied. Also not sure what you mean with the Kekkai genkai stuff, if using it was as simple as knowing how to, then Orochimaru should be able to use it. Heck if it's as simple as knowing how and having affinities every Rinnegan user should be able to. It's a special trait that is genetic, we know it's genetic, so unless the Uchiha's implant they can't copy it. But they can still see the chakra being formed they are just physically incapable of making their chakra act in that way. Besides that keep in mind that Kakashi couldn't just use all basic natures, he mastered them. He created jutsu of every nature, and could wield them freely. could he have feasibly learned them all by that point without sharingan honestly debatable on it's own, but I'd say probably, but mastery? The only person we see with mastery of all 5 other than Kakashi is Sarutobi, who has lived through multiple shinobi world wars. More important than any of that, I just want to apologize again if I've offended you. Totally not my intent.--Azura (talk) 15:07, 30 January 2023 (MST)

Also I know movie's aren't canon, but Kakashi does use the snow style great whale, and there was no way for him to have learnt that nature before hand. Also realised this just now, but Naruto is arguably more talented than Sasuke. Sasuke already knew several jutsu, and had way more practice using his chakra when they started on the tree walking exersize. Plus he had less chakra which should make chakra control exercizes easier, but him and Naruto mastered it at the same time. but with only 2 tomoe he still learned lightning transformation faster than a 3 years older Naruto learned wind with hundreds of clones.--Azura (talk) 16:06, 30 January 2023 (MST)

You don't have to apologize, the Uchiha aren't real and I certainly don't mind. My point in bringing up Sasuke is that your proposal originally was that Replication should allow players to use jutsu from natures they don't know, but the only implication toward that being a thing seems to be your assumption on what Kakashi/every Uchiha is or isn't capable of, while the databooks, Sasuke needing to train to use Lightning Style (again "learn" is used, not "master"), and the fact that there are clearly limitations on what nature transformations a Sharingan can copy jutsu from are against you. Using jutsu you don't have the nature for is typically (and exclusively within the canon if I'm not mistaken) for extremely basic jutsu like Earth Style Barrier (Earth Release: Practice Brick Technique directly translated, which could imply that it could be a jutsu used to teach Earth Style rather than a true Earth Style jutsu, which is supported by the fact that it can be taught in a matter of seconds without prior knowledge of Earth Style). Beyond that arguable example, I can't think of another instance in canon material of someone using a jutsu of a nature they can't use normally regardless of if they have the Sharingan.--Ref3rence (talk) 20:12, 2 February 2023 (MST)

I mean it kind of has to be. Otherwise Kakashi and Yamato were full on lying when they called it a jonin level technique we see ton of genin and chuunin using elemental jutsu. Using a specific jutsu is the first step to learning a nature, then you learn how to use that nature which makes your jutsu stronger, and makes it easier to learn more, and then you master it to the point where you can create jutsu with it. So yeah they start with teaching the most basic of elemental jutsu, because starting with the most basic thing obviously makes sense. I'm just saying that the people needing to start with something super easy probably wouldn't have to if they could see exactly how the chakra was manipulated to accomplish something. They would still need to learn to mold their chakra in that way, but it would make the learning process a lot quicker. Another thing is Kakashi could only use lightning until some point after he got the sharingan. Which means he mastered his natural affinity in the 8 years between his graduation and when he got his sharingan. Than in significantly less than twice that time, if all the people from other villages talking about Kakashi of the sharingan mean anything he mastered all 4 of the natures he had no affinity for? Granted he was older, but in the manga at least it was pretty clear that mastering 1 nature didn't make mastering the next one any easier. Idk I didn't want to suggest having the sharingan help learn nature affinities, because that would break the game a little, but having like 5 jutsu prepared a day, and the penalty I think stops it from being a particularly good option. Especially with the extra copy cost. It's mostly for flavor again, because it's cool. Also the unarmed strike to stop an enemy jutsu is really good, but not something we've specially seen the sharingan do, but tell me that when Kakashi used a perfect copy of Zabuza's water dragon to cancel it out wasn't one of the coolest things in Naruto.--Azura (talk) 07:00, 3 February 2023 (MST)

The sharingan accelerating how quickly one can learn a nature doesn't seam like the same thing to me as your proposed Replication change, that feels more like an alternate feature that grants additional chakra nature(s), but I'm not sure how to make it interesting. Kakashi's statement in chapter 316 (which I assume you're referring to with Kakashi and Yamato lying) is that "almost every [jonin] has at least two natures", implying that not only do a good number of jonin without the sharingan have use of at least 3 chakra natures, but that even those below jonin can have multiple natures. Additionally, just because Kakashi doesn't use ninjutsu other than Chidori during his flashback doesn't mean he can't. He was a jonin, and his fighting style primarily focused around taijutsu and his father's sword while having even less chakra than at the beginning of the series, where he could only use Chidori 4 times per day, so him exclusively using his newly-developed trump card rather than waste chakra on other jutsu is entirely reasonable. I'm not sure what you mean about his title meaning anything, the title Kakashi of the Sharingan is ostensibly about his use of the Sharingan, not necessarily his multiple chakra natures. The unarmed strike to interrupt jutsu was inspired by Naruto vs Sasuke where Sasuke repeatedly keeps Naruto from making Shadow Clones, but I've added the Opposing Jutsu variant rule to the main page and given Jutsu Analysis a bonus to it, as canceling out jutsu isn't unique to Kakashi, but he is shown to be good at it.--Ref3rence (talk) 19:09, 3 February 2023 (MST)

They aren't the same, but I feel like learning the natures is too much, hence why I had this as a kind of happy in between between mechanics, and naruto world realism. Right one being natural and the other being learned, but keep in mind has and mastered are very different. His reputation as Kakashi of the sharingan was a reference to the time frame he must have mastered the other 4 natures by. Also that's my point, unless Kakashi lied about learning natures being a jonin level skill than it doesn't make sense for so many genin and chuunin to have access to 1 or more. Hence why I say they know some jutsu, but haven't actually learned straight nature manipulation. Fair point about the child Kakashi, but even after he had learned that his trump card had a major blindspot he didn't even try to do any other jutsu switching entirely to taijutsu. That definitely was not the best tactical choice if he had other jutsu to use, and tactics was supposed to be one of the things Kakashi had excelled at.--Azura (talk) 15:36, 4 February 2023 (MST)

There is nothing in the text to imply the title "Kakashi of the Sharingan" has anything to do with mastery of natures. Kakashi also doesn't state that learning natures is a jonin level skill, he states that "almost every [jonin] has at least two natures". That does not mean that only jonin have 2+ natures, it's squares and rectangles. To cast a jutsu that has a nature transformation, you need to be able to use that nature transformation, that's how the magic system works, your idea of "straight nature manipulation" just isn't a thing in the text (which was my point about calling Practice Brick a jutsu used to teach Earth Style rather than a true Earth Style jutsu, it doesn't fit with the established nature transformation system, and fits more closely with Jirobo's "Earth Style" techniques that consist of ripping rocks out of the ground by force). A major point of me bringing up kid Kakashi was his very limited chakra supply; if he were to incorporate other jutsu into his fighting style at the time, it's likely he would not be able to use Chidori at all. It's also arguable that he was fully aware of the Chidori's downside, as he had recently developed it. In his position, relying on taijutsu and saving chakra seems like the better choice to me, especially when he had access to Sakumo's White Light Chakra Sabre.--Ref3rence (talk) 19:39, 5 February 2023 (MST)

Kakashi of the Sharingan is specifically said to be a title he gained from copying a ton of jutsu, which means he would of had to already have all the natures for a good chunk of time before gaining that title. that's literally straight contradicting itself, The practice jutsu is simple, but it's still litterally using an earth style jutsu. They use their chakra to manipulate the earth, and or create earth. He continues to try chisdori after failing with it several times, and even having it's weakness literally explained to him. Admittedly for the jonin level skill part I mixed up the lines. That was in reference to combining shape manipulation and nature transformation. Which honestly feels like most jutsu do, but apparently it only really matters for rasengun and chidori.--Azura (talk) 06:42, 6 February 2023 (MST)

Technically "Copy Ninja Kakashi" is the title you're thinking of, but even with Kakashi having a title regarding the number of jutsu he's copied, but that's still not a problem for the way Replication is set up right now. We don't have a timeframe for when Kakashi gained that title, but it's likely he didn't until after his Anbu career as he would have operated under a codename (and in the anime-only arc his title was "Friend Killer" at that point in time, and by the time he got out he had a similar body type to part 2 Naruto (who was 15-17)). Even if it only took him 1 year of being a normal ninja to become Copy Ninja Kakashi, him mastering every nature by 15 isn't a problem (again, he has potential surpassing Minato, a master of senjutsu, fuinjutsu, natureless ninjutsu, and arguably multiple elements and was already a ninjutsu specialist). I also don't see what's contradictory about calling Practice Brick not a true Earth Style jutsu. They're using chakra to manipulate earth, but unless hundreds of normal chunin and genin can learn a new nature transformation in seconds (hundreds of times faster than Naruto with hundreds of clones and suppressed Kurama or Sasuke with the sharingan, both of whom are massive outliers in terms of talent), it makes more sense for it to be like Earth Mausoleum Dumpling and Earth Shore Return, which use raw strength to rip up earth, rather than being an actual Earth Style jutsu (i.e. a jutsu that uses the Earth nature transformation). It seems more reasonable to me to explain this outlier as just a naming quirk, rather than using it to justify an entirely new aspect of how jutsu work that's somehow never mentioned or seen elsewhere in-series without making big assumptions.--Ref3rence (talk) 16:38, 12 February 2023 (MST)

I'm just saying some jutsu are easier than others, and knowing a nature isn't the same as knowing all it's jutsu, and I thing it's safe to say the opposite is true. They have to learn how to wield the nature somehow, and unless your going for a the chicken or the egg kind of thing it feels like people learn the nature by practicing the easier jutsu, and then use that as a stepping stone to get more and more advanced. I don't disagree that Kakashi was talented, but I do think your argument is pushing the limits of that talent way to far, if your saying the sharingan had nothing to do with it. Minato knew how to do a lot, but aside from fuinjutsu he wasn't really a master of most those things, We never really see him use anything other than fuinjutsu and rasengun. Also I could be mistaken, but wasn't Minato's sage mode originally incomplete, and it was only the imortal nature of the edo tensei body that let him use it without worry? Also my point about the nickname, is that kind of infamy takes time, so he would have had to be doingt the copy thing for at least a few years before the nickname even became well known. Plus it's not like Kakashi doesn't know a bunch of other things too. He's good at most forms of taijutsu, genjutsu, can use some fuinjutsu, he can also use the rasengan, not to mention kenjutsu, and bukijutsu.--Azura (talk) 21:33, 12 February 2023 (MST)

Obviously knowing a nature isn't the same as knowing all of its jutsu, but the core of what makes a jutsu any particular nature is that it uses its nature transformation, so it is not safe to say the opposite is true in any way. Naruto didn't train a jutsu to learn Wind Style, he practiced nature transformation, and that is our baseline for how natures are taught. I stand by that the proposed rules do not reflect the ideas you are presenting; if one can learn jutsu that use a nature transformation one doesn't know, even if its expedited by the sharingan, that should be a universal rule. Maybe something that interacts with Universal Narrative Jutsu would fit better.--Ref3rence (talk) 11:25, 18 February 2023 (MST)

Also, since we're wrapping back to balance, plenty of hand seal jutsu don't have an attack roll or saving throw or deal damage (Toad Gun, Sand Body, Mud Wall, Hidden Mist, Rain Tiger at Will, Water Armor, Lightning Strike Armor, Lightning Fish) and the additional chakra cost is a temporary setback at worst, allowing them to use jutsu from natures they don't have with effectively no cost. I don't think all of these just be givens.--Ref3rence (talk) 00:03, 30 January 2023 (MST)

Maybe for jutsu that aren't affected by the - 3 add 3 to chakra cost instead?

At that point, we might as well just get rid of the -3 penalty and increase the cost by 1.5x with a minimum of 3 for simplicity.--Ref3rence (talk) 12:31, 30 January 2023 (MST)

That works, I just used that to make it clearly inferior to jutsu with known natures. Where as with the chakra increase if you have enough of it then it's basically interchangeable.--Azura (talk) 15:07, 30 January 2023 (MST)

uncertain if this has been asked and there's a lot of talk of Susanoo and the likes. my big question is is you have Susanoo and Shadow clones out (anywhere from 1-5 shadow clones). while Susanoo is active any creature that has a feature that would only affect them, may cause it to affect Susanoo instead. say a shadow clone of yours decides to contribute its own susanoo to the one you currently have. would then benefits of susanoo be granted an additional time, or due to redundancy would it not count at all? - CleverNot 16:28, 12 July 2023 EST

That’s actually a new one! While it’s never outright stated anywhere, it’s assumed that only 1 instance of a given effect can affect a creature at a time unless otherwise stated.—Ref3rence (talk) 17:06, 12 July 2023 (MDT)

Indra's Arrow

Also raw you can cast indra's arrow without having indra's susanoo active, and if Indra's susanoo is active it would do 60d12 damgage. You would have to be 27th level so I wouldn't have even commented on it, but in the Sasuke character block it says that his Indra's arrow is not doubled.

This has been corrected.--Ref3rence (talk) 11:32, 28 January 2023 (MST)

Visual Genjutsu

If a creatures has affinity in Path of Hatred unique jutsu, does that affinity transfer over towards jutsu learned due to Visual Genjutsu? additionally, a genjutsu "reflected" back onto a person due to Demonic Illusion: Mirror Heaven and Earth, would an affinity bonus to Path of Hatred unique jutsu effect the DC or attack roll? - CleverNot 21:35, 10 June 2023 (EST)

This is ultimately up to DM discretion, but I would rule that since the jutsu are learned/available from a path feature, they count as path jutsu. RAW, Demonic Illusion: Mirror Heaven and Earth uses the same DC or attack roll and as such would not benefit from affinity, but it wouldn't break anything to decide otherwise (and I would probably rule otherwise in my own game).--Ref3rence (talk) 21:11, 10 June 2023 (MDT)

Kotoamatsukami

I wanted to ask for Koto-Kobo. Can you use other jutsu for this? For example, Would I be able to use a max chakra fireball as the Kobo attack? Oh one more question, if you CAN do this. Is it possible for the attack to benefit from path of specialization/Sage Art/Onyx jutsu/Vermillion jutsu/Lament jutsu? THESNAKEOFHELL (talk) 07:08, 8 September 2023 (MDT)

The intent is to be able to deal the damage of other jutsu as psychic damage and with ease, using Koto-Kobo, so yes you can use the fireball, however about amplifying the jutsu with path of specialization, sage art, onyx jutsu or the such, those bonuses would have to be applied to the Koto-Kobo jutsu itself, not the jutsu its replicating, Koto-Kobo does not mechanically count as the jutsu whose damage you're using.

P@uL (talk) 15:30, 8 September 2023 (MDT)