Talk:Hyrule: Fighter (5e Class)
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Hey Guy, I am impressed with the campaign setting you have going on. The tables and windows, kudos man! I noticed a feature has the title Grit and its extremely weird I found this because I just noticed it on a race lol but I mentioned there that Grit is usually associated with gunslinger classes and subclasses. It sort of represents their version of luck. Now the way you're using it, is very similar to the feat Tough. Is there a chance you're willing to change the title to something that doesn't overlap with another feature? Not saying change it to Tough but something that represents the hardiness and health of the class that is unique. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 11:02, 1 May 2018 (MDT)
- The feature is, as you pointed out, based on that feat. I felt calling the feature "Tough" was inappropriate—and could get confusing if someone wanted both this class and that feat. There's no need for it to be "Grit," though. I suppose "Mettle" isn't used so much, but more or less means the same thing? - Guy (talk) 11:14, 1 May 2018 (MDT)
- I did a search for the wiki and that term doesn't seem to show up right away for other homebrews, which isn't essential but a great boon in my opinion. I think mettle is a good word for it. I would associate it with mental strength more but I've not seen it used for anything else on here or another site that hosts first party content. I like it! BigShotFancyMan (talk) 11:44, 1 May 2018 (MDT)
Mostly for my own reference, here's how the damage output breaks out across levels and subclasses. This assumes the 5e standard array, no feats, and no magic items, but otherwise optimized builds.
|Stamina meter plus a fighting style. The most powerful combination is a d12 or 2d6 weapon plus power beam; it requires full hit points and can only be done twice between short rests (2 stamina points), but 18 damage is very high for this level. Without power beam and full hp, but still making a called shot (2 sp), we're looking at 15 which exceeds SRD norms slightly. The duel-wielding fighting style can also output 18, but expends 4 stamina points.|
Overall the called shot mechanic makes this class slightly more powerful at low levels than SRD fighter, but with Action Surge an optimized SRD fighter still outperforms a hyrulean one at least one round per rest.
|Hyrulean fighter's subclasses don't have features to distinguish their damage output at this point. All get Extra Attack, have ASI to bring Str/Dex to 18 or 19, and should have over 8 stamina points. That's now enough to make called shots for most attacks in a typical combat, assuming a short rest between each one. Again, two-handed weapon w/power beam takes the cake for 37, but requires 4 sp and full hp. Without full hp or without power beam, we're looking at 32 for 4 sp. Two-weapon fighting begins to fall behind; it gives 30, but requires 6 sp. A spellsword wielding a fire rod has an average of 27 fire (3d6+3), but requires expending sp that doesn't recover until a long rest, so more traditional weapons might still be better for them now. An archer has the highest chance to hit, but will only do about 24 damage. A tunic has a couple techniques, but they don't do much if anything for direct damage output.
Thanks entirely to called shots, this class still slightly outperforms the SRD fighter (24 avg dmg per turn) on average. Action Surge lets SRD fighter blow the Hyrulean fighter out of the water once per rest at least (48 avg damage).
|This is where SRD fighter gets its third attack, and all but one of these subclasses lack it. Even though Hyrulean fighter has a whopping 20 or more sp, and a second fighting style, things start to even out again. At this point everyone should have either 20 Str or 20 Dex. An optimized SRD fighter at this point can do an average of 40 in one turn, or 80 when using Action Surge.
Archer has gotten no improvements to their damage without spending resources but can now Trick Shot: Overdraw for +5 damage on attacks at a -2 attack penalty, which ends up at 36 damage that still has +2 to attack rolls over other classes with a longbow but does not gain further improvements for a cost of 10 sp. There is an alternative to this which uses darts and two-weapon fighting with Trick Shot: Overdraw which deals 14 damage per hit and another 9 from two-weapon fighting for 15 sp but it's costly and lackluster compared to using a standard Longbow. An Archer with a rapier and a dart in their other hand can make two called shots in melee for 26 damage and make an Overdraw Trick Shot for 9 more damage, 35 total while only spending 9 sp. Wrathful Combatant can increase this damage further but I won't be counting it since this damage chart was created before that Fighting Style was created. Archer is markedly weaker than other classes and weaker than SRD Fighter with their burst potential falling behind SRD Fighter's baseline damage output. Even their greater bonus to hit doesn't balance this out, and they could use a damage buff and/or a cost reduction on Trick Shot so their burst doesn't cost twice as much to reach the base potential of the other classes.
Brute gets three attacks plus called shots. Devastating. With the Power Beam and style plus full hit points, and called shots, we're looking at 17 per hit plus 7 from power beam. That's 58. Without power beam, it's still 51. This is still more than a fighter, but not by a painfully huge margin—and that one Action Surge means 1/rest fighter still obliterates the brute's output. Depending on its archetype, the SRD fighter will have more options or a much higher critical chance than the brute, too.
Darknut, being defense-oriented, doesn't gain any features which boost its damage over the base class. Two greatsword called shots gives 34 damage, or 41 with a power beam at full hit points. It has plenty of defenses to make up for relatively low damage. I'd say it's on-par with the SRD fighter.
Spellsword finally reaches the point where it can make as many fire rod attacks as it likes without expending resource. It can't make called shots with these, but (a) it would still deal more damage using fire rod, and (b) it has plenty of spells to burn sp on anyway. For better or worse, no fighting styles aid this damage output. Two fire rod attacks, assuming 20 Int, means 31 (6d6+10) fire damage. When spells are considered, combining ice spear for 27 (6d8) cold damage plus—thanks to Spell Versatility— a greatsword called shot made as a bonus action for 17 slashing, combining in a total of 44 against one target. Overall this falls only slightly below an optimized SRD fighter, but its vast array of spells compared to Eldritch Knight should make up for this.
A tunic can make a called shot Jump Attack with a greatsword for a whopping 10 sp, plus a normal called shot afterward for another 2 sp. Overall this is 46 damage, or bumped up to 53 if power beam is used as a bonus action. This slightly exceeds SRD fighter still, but I feel it's acceptable considering Action Surge.
|At this point SRD fighter has more features, including two uses of action surge, but depending on its archetype its damage output will still be pretty similar.
Archer finally gets a power boost with Slow Time and the ability to make additional attacks. With their bonus action they can make three attacks with Trick Shot: Overdraw for 18 damage per attack and a total of 54 damage, but loses the ability to make use of two-weapon fighting which makes mixed attackers obsolete. Slow Time and all the Called Shots with Overdraw will cost a grand total of 27 sp to pull off which isn't that great. Their burst pales in comparison to SRD Fighter and they only manage to outclass Darknut. Volley can be situationally useful but the cost of Trick Shot is too great to apply it to a group of enemies.
Brute gains some options for overcoming DR and immunity, but similarly remains about the same.
Darknut gains Body Blow at 17th level, which lets it add its Constitution modifier (probably +5 at this point) to its called shot Strength-based attacks. It's a pretty huge boon, but in terms of damage output it still isn't as powerful as brute was back at 11th level. The features gained since then, for the Darknut, are defensive. This subclass option remains the best for stalwart defense but the worst for actual damage output.
By now spellsword can cast fire volley as a called shot, which comes out to a tremendous 64 damage. Thanks to Spell Versatility, it can add a greatsword called shot made as a bonus action for 17 slashing, combining in a total of 81 against one target. Great damage, but still not as good as brute was at 11th level, and on-par with by SRD fighter using Action Surge (which it now gets 2/rest). Even without any called shots, fire bolts 22 damage plus 12 damage from a greatsword bonus attack is good damage without any cost.
Tunic can get the utterly ridiculous Triforce Slash by now. It's 1/day, but with a greatsword and Great Weapon Fighting deals an average of 107 slashing. Without GWF, it's 96. Whirlwind Spin Attack through greatsword does about 46.5, or 50.5 with Great Weapon Fighting, but costs a whopping 17 sp and has other drawbacks. Outside of those two options, its average damage output against a single target isn't higher than it was at 11th level.
|SRD fighter is kinged with its ridiculous 4 attacks, with 2/rest Action Surge. Hyrulean fighter's capstones are determined mostly by its subclasses.
Archer gains access to Stop Time but unfortunately can't use it with Slow Time to cheat out more attacks because of the bonus action restriction. They now get 4 attacks to make at 19 damage each with an Overdraw Trick Shot, which adds up to 72 damage total by spending 32 sp, or because they have Advantage on all attacks and can reliably hit targets at +4 above other classes, choose to cancel out Advantage for making Called Shot Trick Shots for a cost of 24 sp. This can only be done for one round at the amount of stamina they will have before their damage falls off. Archer has the ability to Volley to hit their baseline damage of 28 against all targets within 30ft with basically a guarantee to hit for 12 sp per round and this loses out to spellsword in the AoE damage department, but the main benefit they have over spellcasting is they can do this damage again every short rest and at least 3 times in every encounter assuming a short rest in between.
Brute gets its fourth attack, which lets it reign supreme as the most damaging subclass of Hyrulean fighter. It can make a called shot with all four attacks for 8 sp; which by now it can do for at least 5 rounds between short rets. This is probably the highest "standard" damage in the Hyrule setting, though far from the greatest "all-out" damage.
Darknut gains immense defenses, but its damage output will barely change. Spellsword and tunic both can use their features easily and more often, but their damage output remains pretty much the same too.
Removing Action Surge seems like the best way to bring this class back in line. Even without it, this class can still outperform SRD fighter in some areas, but the sheer difference made by Action Surge makes up for that at least a little bit. - Guy (talk) 13:37, 3 July 2018 (MDT)
Just an update what my player chose:
- Fringe Dweller
- Soldier background
- Exploration Fighting Style
- Tunic subclass
- Dash Attack
- Shield Bash
- Mobile feat at level 4
- I'm looking forward to any feedback you or they may be able to provide. - Guy (talk) 06:00, 2 July 2018 (MDT)
- Such horrible news. My player really didn't get a chance to enjoy this build. He is a new player and young, and another new player decided to venture off to entirely separate area of a dungeon away from the party. My younger player followed and the two of them ran into a 5e SRD:Roper. Two level 4 characters quickly died while the other 5 party members were entirely separate on another level of the cave, 100s of feet away. I am sorry I can't give more. He never used a technique, or anything! Another time perhaps. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 06:32, 3 July 2018 (MDT)
I’m a little confused about how the spellsword uses magic points, as it kind’ve implies you use stamina points instead. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by PickleJarPete (talk • contribs) . Please sign your posts.
- You're correct. According to the "Casting Spells" section of the Spellcasting feature, it says you can use magic points OR stamina points. EpicBoss99 (talk) 01:28, 18 November 2018 (MST)
I feel like the Archer is a class that is not quite there in terms of theme and progression. If you want to make a high damage Archer, you are better off choosing Brute. I see the slow time/stop time rather awkward and they come too late into play, anyways. I think it's better to change the slow/stop time for the classic fighter additional extra attack, or rework it to get it at lv 11. What do you guys think? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 22.214.171.124 (talk). Please sign your posts.
- Archer is from a different author than the other subclasses, so it may seem slightly peculiar from a design standpoint. I haven't analyzed archer's capabilities as thoroughly as the other subclasses, but I fear you might be right. It has a couple neat features (woodworker's proficiency, Evasive Maneuvers) but so many of them are focused on damage and initiative—which the brute just does better. Archer doesn't quite have the defenses of the darknut, nor the versatility of the tunic and spellsword, so it doesn't have much going for it compared to brute.
- I assumed the slow time/stop time was meant to emulate how Link can appear to slow/stop time in Breath of the Wild. Considering that Link can do the same thing with Flurry Rush and melee attacks, though, it doesn't really make sense for this feature to belong to the archer subclass—it should belong to the core class, or belong to a separate subclass based on BotW Link's fighting style.
- EpicBoss99 seemed interested in making the subclass and I don't have a problem with its inclusion, but... one can already make an archer with other subclasses just by choosing the "archery" fighting style and picking up a bow. I feel like I don't fully grasp the importance of archer as a separate subclass, which makes it difficult for me personally to add to it in a way that feels fitting. I'd encourage any thoughtful edits to those features or the entire subclass, of course. - Guy
- I really wanted to see an archer subclass mainly because of some of the cool things you can do in the games with a bow, especially slowing down time and stuff like that. I also agree that in its current state it really doesn't work but I would really like to see it stay. I think it'd be cool to have the archer be a subclass that focuses on accuracy and utility rather than pure damage output while still having that fighter feel. This would differentiate it with the other subclasses and still make it balanced in comparison to the others. I really want to see if I can make a rework of it or at the very least fix the balance issues, but yeah as Guy said feel free to add whatever y'all want. --EpicBoss99 (talk) 16:35, 2 November 2019 (MDT)
- Just to finally put this in writing: What are the thoughts on putting Archer as a Hunter sublcass and re-adding Sword Savage? It both makes the Archer class more Viable and balances the number of classes to an average of 5 (Also: if you make edits to the pages, please do not forget to change the header as well). --Lycanskull (talk) 22:57, 1st Spetember 2021 (MDT)
- Sword Savage is fine to add in my opinion since it covers a niche that doesn't cross over too much with Brute or Darknut but it desperately needs a rewrite because it has several problems. It references later features in earlier features you don't even have yet, going by the core book Point Buy stat cap or Standard Array you can't even use Frenzy the level you unlock it and the way it's written it does the same thing as Extra Attack (making two attacks when you take the Attack Action), you get Fear Immunity in two different features, etc.
- Before anything is done with Archer you say Archer isn't viable but the damage chart for Fighter which includes the Archer subclass isn't even finished. By my estimates they keep pace with other Fighter classes with the damage increase they get in Trick Shot and they have an even better bonus to hit Trick Shots once they get Sniper and still stay just under par at an amount of damage they can inflict at 600 feet with a better attack roll than any other Fighter class. They don't do raw damage but they're far from unviable and have the most consistency of any other class. I haven't even calculated what they can do with Slow Time. Before you claim "unviable" you need to run the numbers.
- I've seen the Style Sync options proposed for Hunter's version of Archer and they don't solve the main problem anyone has spoken of with Archer, that being lower damage. Except for Sleep Shot (which could use a rework to have the DC scale with the user instead of being a higher DC than a player at that level doing anything else could impose with an ability, let alone the fact there's no duration on how long poisoned ammunition stays poisoned ammunition before you fire it let alone the gameplay balance of dealing damage over a full minute with just one saving throw and applying the Poisoned condition whenever you want with no usage cap) you give the class with the most bonus to hit even more bonuses to hit. Sometimes even obscene amounts like Quickdraw, which can reach +17 to hit on a level 2 character. Archer has no problems hitting things, they don't need any more help there.
- Lastly, Archer was made as a Fighter class. There are ranged Fighter subclasses in core DnD like Arcane Archer. If you really want a ranged attacker Archer subclass you have the ability to make a ranged attacker Hunter subclass instead of taking someone else's subclass they didn't make for your own class. By making a new subclass you would be solving your "same amount of subclasses" problem either way. There's no basis in the "amount of subclasses" claim anyway because core DnD doesn't follow this rule with Wizard or Cleric or new classes like Artificer, and if it did we would have a lot more Researcher subclasses than 3 to compensate for that. --ViniVidiVicci (talk)
- That's a fair argument. A more detailed list of edits made to Sword Savage would be appreciated for balance purposes. However, Archer still lacks in the damage department (It's To-Hits and defense is great, but never having a damage bonus hurts it in comparison to the other classes), and it is an incredibly slow start. No futher edits will be made to Archer on my end, however. Lycanskull (talk)
- As you can see above I have completed the damage progression chart of the Archer class, so now we can see the inherent problems of the class's damage output and why I said to run the numbers. This of course disregards feats, if you allow Sharpshooter Archer breaks in half. The main problem with Archer is three-fold: they don't have enough damage bonuses, they don't have any beneficial Fighting Styles to increase damage like Dueling or Two-Weapon Fighting or Power Beam, and their burst damage costs too much Stamina to use multiple turns in a row. I believe the solution here is to allow Archer to craft +1/2/3 and possibly even other magic arrows with their crafting feature that scales with level (which would grant a damage bonus innately while not losing anything core to Archer), lower the cost of Trick Shot by one or two Stamina or change Trick Shot to cost different Stamina for different options and buff their main damage Trick Shot Overdraw to add more damage at the drawback of losing more bonus to hit/extra Stamina cost (to function as Sharpshooter), and to change Slow Time and Stop Time to be used more frequently without breaking it. I also agree with making Slow Time available earlier on to better fall in line with the class. If we know what's wrong with Archer it should be buffed to keep it in line with other classes and make it more friendly to use.
- I will make any comments on what changes should need to be made to Sword Savage on your talk page.--ViniVidiVicci (talk)