Talk:Evnir (5e Race)

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Musicus Meter
Score: 6
This race has a score of 6 according to the Musicus Meter race guidelines. With this metric, first-party races' scores range from 4.5 to 8. This is a guideline, not a rule, and it's important to use your own judgment alongside this scoring.
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--ConcealedLight (talk) 09:51, 18 March 2018 (MDT)

I had talked to others about the development about this race, but I can always use more feedback on what I have. I welcome any comments or questions anyone has so I can make this better. Noritsune (talk)

I've made a number of corrections to the race and stubbed the page for the reason you can see in the stub. Now, before I continue to make tweaks to the race I'd like to know what you envisioned for the race. As the flow needs to be corrected. Is 'Always Improving' meant to be an alternative to taking an ASI/Feat? If so, racial feats should be created and put at the end of the race. Next, 'Magical Instability' and 'Sounds of Gears' restricts users wanting to play a stealth(rogues/ rangers) and magic(wizards/ warlocks) based approaches. This is something that is done away with in 5th edition, was this your intention? If so it should be done away with, the sound of gears is flavorful but needs tweaking so it still allows for a stealth-based approach. The magic restrictions are unnecessary. Lastly, you should probably double the number of names. ConcealedLight (talk) 06:38, 8 February 2018 (MST)
Well first thanks for the assistance and feedback, I honestly had given up on anyone giving me any feedback on this after so long, so lets answer some questions then.
  • Yes, Always Improving was meant to be an alternative to ASI/Feats but I should have mentioned that any of the ones listed can be taken at any level, there's no progression to the list at all.
  • I know that negative modifiers aren't a thing in 5e anymore but yeah it was more of a flavor thing I was trying to go for since they're a straight mechanical race with nothing biological in them whatsoever. I'm open to suggestions about other options for the gears and magical instability (which you're right I should probably just remove entirely)
  • The sub races were difficult for me when I was developing them. Originally I wanted them all to have different abilities they gained while leveling but it just turned out to be vastly overpowered and once I scaled it back to what it is I felt as thought it was 'acceptable' but not great. As for the flow problem are you saying they should have less diversity between them?
  • On the names, yeah that's easy enough I can add those the next chance I get. Though the first names are really just random, there's no set convention to those.
Again thanks for the feedback! This is all great and I appreciate the help!
Welcome back. In terms of the flow of the race I mean that when you look it and read through it do the words read easy and do the traits say exactly what they mean in the shortest most simplified way. I will look over everything again later. --ConcealedLight (talk) 15:20, 25 February 2018 (MST)

Did a few things and fixed a couple duplicate wordings and spelling error and filled out a description for the other subrace (marvelous idea by the way, thanks for that) and removed 'Improving on Design' as being a racial feat it doesn't exactly work since the original intention was to be instead of ASI improvement so it won't exactly work as a racial feat. I'll need to think of something else to add onto there but for now the three racial feats are sufficient. If you notice anything else or think of anything else I missed, please don't hesitate to let me know.

In regard to the racial feats. A feat should be the equivalent or of comparable strength to a +2 ASI. A racial feat should follow this as well as being relevant to specifically that race. Currently, the racial feats don't match up to even a +1 ASI so they could do with a major buff. An idea is that they could be presented as experimental developments within you that you gain access to/ unlock at the cost of an ASI like in the video game, Deus Ex: Mankin Dvivded. Also, in terms of the base race why a +1 to Dexterity and not Constitution since they are constructs and as such always going to be more durable then most biological races. --ConcealedLight (talk) 15:39, 3 March 2018 (MST)

Good point on the base ability score for the race, changed that up. Was thinking Dexterity originally since they're not clunky machines, but made to be articulate and mobile. Con works equally as well though since they are completely made out of metal. Also started making racial feats. Look over the one I actually finished and see if that's to much or not. Gonna take a little more time to think of other ones.

Super appreciate all of the help you've given so far Light, I'm content with the racial feats at this point. Is there anything else you think I need to work on here?

It's no problem. I'd say add a +1 ASI to the built in weaponry feat or another major ability to it. Pathfinder, needs a buff such a skill proficiency(survival, stealth, perception are all solid choices) or some other ability that compliments their playstyle. Scholar could have the choice between Intelligence and Wisdom since there isn't an Intelligence option. The creator trait should be worded like the gnomes tinker trait is and AC/HP should always be Armor Class and hit points(site standards). Lastly I think the primary race traits could do with an addition. Once these are done I'll run through it and make sure everything is cool. --ConcealedLight (talk) 12:48, 17 March 2018 (MDT)
Went through and made some changes/additions. I ended up looking at the other construct races for some inspiration on abilities and really liked the Flexible ability from Animated Armor, it did remind me that I originally wrote them up to be a more flexible race, though I'm having trouble coming up with something else other than the trait that's over on Animated Armor. May be also due to some writer's block as well.
Lucky for you I did alot of work getting that race up to playability. I'd say its about done now, unless you want to make their now +2 CON back to +1 and give them another small traiti? --ConcealedLight (talk) 09:51, 18 March 2018 (MDT)
I am lucky and I appreciate everything you've done tremendously. This was the first 'wiki' style page I've ever made and formatting and the like wasn't something I was accustomed to doing, additionally I needed an outside source to help with the balancing and improvement on this. Seriously, you rock thanks so much for helping me make this better than it was.
It's no problem really. I'm happy I could help. If you need help with other races your making feel free to ask myself or another 5e Helper. Pleasure working with you. --ConcealedLight (talk) 16:44, 19 March 2018 (MDT)

Mendable Wording[edit]

So, something I wanted to ask about the Mendable trait; it says "Alternatively, as part of the casting of mending the caster may expand any number of spell slots(minimum 1) causing you to regain a number of hit points equal to 1d8 + their spellcasting ability modifier. When you do this using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the healing increases by 1d8 for each slot level above 1st." I assume this is meant to say they can spend a spell slot to treat it like cure wounds, and not allow them to spend multiple spell slots simultaneously on the spell? If so, the wording should probably change to "Alternatively, as part of the casting of mending, the caster may expend one of their spell slots, causing you to regain a number of hit points equal to 1d8 + their spellcasting ability modifier; when this is done using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the healing increases by 1d8 for each slot level above 1st." (Also fixed some minor spelling and grammar for the reworded version.) Just a friendly suggestion. -- Alice-chan (talk) 11:48, 17 April 2019 (MDT)

If I'm wrong on this, feel free to tell me as much. -- Alice-chan (talk) 09:19, 3 May 2019 (MDT)
Appreciate it! Mechanics wording gets to me sometimes so any help with that is always appreciated.

Weight and Swimming[edit]

I recently came to another realization about this race when looking at its weight. Considering they're made entirely of metal, and weigh hundreds of pounds (a 5'2" Evnir weighs 540 lbs. in fact), would they even be able to swim at all? On top of that, it also begs the question of how one would handle their movement underwater as well. I felt this was another thing to address for this race. -- Alice-chan (talk) 09:03, 19 May 2019 (MDT)

Swimming wasn't something I really considered at time of creation honestly. If anything, knowing they're entirely made of metal they'd probably actively avoid deeper bodies of water knowing they'd just sink to the bottom without being capable of actually swimming. I suppose something could be added as a racial feat that makes their body lighter via using lightweight materials along with a some kind of 'swim bladder' that would help them swim. What are your thoughts on it?
I suppose if you wanted to you could try adding a racial Feat that would grant them a small swim speed (likely 15 or 20 feet), but one way or another, I still believe that it will still need to be addressed how the base race handles water, since it'll only be a matter of time before the race is used in a campaign that involves deep water. My preliminary thoughts, which are shared by a DM I've actually brought this concern up with, would be that an Evnir, should they find themselves in water, first sinks all the way to the bottom at a rate of 60 feet per round, unable to move horizontally while sinking, and once they are on the bottom, can walk along it at half their walking speed. An Evnir could avoid the initial sinking by walking into a body of water to begin with, such as entering the sea at a beach for example, but once they're more than halfway submerged become subject to the halved movement. Additionally, the DM suggested that while underwater, an Evnir could jump, but all of their jump distances are automatically at half, as if performing a standing jump (backed up with the explanation that the Evnir wouldn't be able to build up enough speed underwater to perform a non-standing jump). Should you take these suggestions and try implementing them, then you would probably want to add these special mechanics into a racial trait for the base race (you would also mention in the trait that Evnir cannot swim, and likely name the trait in a way that refers to their weight and/or that they're made of metal). -- Alice-chan (talk) 13:01, 1 June 2019 (MDT)
First off, I'm so happy that someone was even talking about my D&D race, I didn't think that would ever happen after posting this here. I'll add what you've spoken about with your DM to the description since I agree with the idea and personally hadn't considered what they'd have to do if they encountered water in any way before. Another thought I had would be adding a level of Fatigue (which I equate to Exhaustion for Evnir) for them being in salt water of any kind since it would definitely have an adverse effect on their interior workings. The length of exposure would probably vary depending on the situation though. Definitely one level of fatigue after 'swimming' though. (talk)
Mm, I suppose that part about salt water could make sense, but maybe at least make it so that a minimum amount of time is needed before they start suffering for it. It feels like it'd probably be a little unfair to say "You touched salt water, have a level of Exhaustion". Perhaps they receive a level of Exhaustion after being in salt water for 1 hour, with this time being cumulative across all cases of being in salt water, and then after that they receive another level of Exhaustion for each additional 10 minutes (also cumulative) that they're in it? Then, simply remove one level of Exhaustion after completing a long rest (due to the maintenance they perform on themselves during theirs), which resets the cumulative timer to the beginning of the previous step (meaning an Evnir with 3 levels of Exhaustion due to salt water finishing a long rest would have their cumulative timer reset back to 1 hour 10 minutes, and have 2 levels of Exhaustion left, then their next long rest brings them down to 1 level and resets the timer to 1 hour, and then both are reset to 0 at the end of the next long rest after that).
Anyway, you're entirely welcome. I actually was shown this race by a friend of mine, and I basically fell in love with it right away. I love the concept of it, and I'm more than happy to help polish out untouched details of it. -- Alice-chan (talk) 08:35, 2 June 2019 (MDT)
Added the trait and the augment to the page. Increased it to an hour for each level of exhaustion just to give them a chance if they sink pretty deep into salt water. If you see any mistakes or anything, please feel free to correct them. Mechanics wording is always odd for me. Noritsune (talk)

Been watching your edits you two and got some suggestions to help sort out the issue you're discussing. —ConcealedLightChatmod.png (talk) 09:35, 2 June 2019 (MDT)

By all means, I'm always interested in other people's input.
Make sure to sign your posts with the four ~'s Noritsune! I've added my suggestion with justification in the recent summary. —ConcealedLightChatmod.png (talk) 10:23, 2 June 2019 (MDT)
Apologies, still not accustomed to all of this set up. I hadn't looked at the page in awhile since I didn't think anything else was going on with it. Noritsune (talk) 10:39, 2 June 2019 (MDT)
In that case, I'll write out my suggestion. That being to add the following to the speed section: "You sink in water as if your speed was 0 and you were falling." This means that an evnir fall in water and doesn't benefit from the swimming speed all races get by default making the Sink Like a Stone trait redundant. —ConcealedLightChatmod.png (talk) 11:00, 2 June 2019 (MDT)
Okay i'll make that modification then and adjust the new feat I added. While I have you, I did get to do some play testing with a soldier Evnir and the trait seemed to be rather under powered, I've tried to think of a balanced way to make it at least usable for low level characters but anything I thought of seemed to give them a bit too much starting AC. Noritsune (talk) 11:02, 2 June 2019 (MDT)
Maybe you could just increase it from 11 + Constitution to 12 + Constitution? -- Alice-chan (talk) 11:24, 2 June 2019 (MDT)
I've played the lizardfolk a few times. 13 + your Dexterity modifier is good I think, especially with a shield. Alternatively, using Constitution instead of Dexterity is an option but it cuts out dex builds a bit too much in my opinion and isn't done by the first party. —ConcealedLightChatmod.png (talk) 11:50, 2 June 2019 (MDT)
I switched it over to the Lizard folk armored ability, even if their base increase is Con. Dex still works for them as a soldier would need to be more dexterous in order to protect the others. Appreciate all the help you two!! Noritsune (talk) 12:08, 2 June 2019 (MDT)
Np Noritsune.
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