Talk:Basic Ninjutsu (Shinobi World Supplement)

• For shadow clones, can they use any of the casters jutsu? chakra cost reductions? Class features? any of that stuff could use clarification. Because for example a cursemark shadow clone is an infinite black chakra farm. ~~ GentlestGolemn
• For transformation is it a free action to untransformed or what? ~~GentlestGolemn

Thanks for bringing these up, hopefully these have been fixed in the most elegant way possible.--Ref3rence (talk) 17:18, 11 December 2021 (MST)

I feel like the exhaustion and effects passing over doesn't make much sense. If stuff like that passed over than Naruto's 9 tails chakra training with clones definitely wouldn't have worked. He would have raged and went 9 tails whenever his clones dispelled. I feel like senjutsu was the exception rather than the rule. Which made sense since leftover chakra returned to the user, so if the clones lost control, he would get a bunch of senjutsu chakra he wasn't prepared for.

I can't recall Naruto ever using his clone training for learning how to control Kurama, since I'm pretty sure the only instance it's used in canon is in mastering the Rasengan and developing the Rasenshuriken, and we actively see in that training sequence that "the combined experiences come with combined mental fatigue, requiring that he take regular breaks" (taken straight from the wiki). Regardless, there's a reason Naruto is pretty much the only person to use shadow clones in these ways, as he's able to resist such effects with his high amount of chakra. Otherwise, most people would rage the moment they got a ton of Tailed Beast chakra from their clones dispelling, which would operate on the same basis as senjutsu since they're both modified forms of chakra.--Ref3rence (talk) 11:21, 19 January 2023 (MST)

Not really since they are actually used to the full amount of tailed beast chakra, they actually would have less than they normally contain. The issue is with the mental break causing a loss of control. I was a little unclear, I meant when he was training and then his clones lost control of their 9 tailed chakra. Not training the 9 tailed chakra specifically. Also in what way does having a lot of chakra help with mental strain? I can kind of see the argument of the healing factor granted by Kurama helping, but by that logic Kakashi would have probably passed out after making the clones on the bridge in wave. Also maybe someone couldn't handle the mental pressure of thousands of clones worth of memories, but 5 or less? Plus we don't really see Boruto struggling with that, and his clones have been through quite a bit with no Kurama healing factor to back him up.

Another note for my point is that if Naruto's clones get caught in a genjutsu that makes them blind or numb or deaf or whatever, and then they get dispelled, he doesn't suddenly get stuck in the genjutsu himself.

I'll agree that it doesn't have the strongest footing, but it's at the very least mechanically necessary. A Path of Youth player with Shadow Clone could use the Eighth Gate, a technique balanced under the assumption that the player will die, with no downsides, among other features that use exhaustion as a resource.--Ref3rence (talk) 16:52, 24 January 2023 (MST)

Just a clarification, but do shado clones have an action the turn they are summoned?--Azura (talk) 16:04, 9 February 2023 (MST) except they only have like 5 hp, so just make the gates deal like 5 damage on activation. Plus maybe make the rule clones can cause exhaustion if overused. so for every clone made above con mod plus 1(min 1) causes a level of exhaustion. Feels more in line with the show that way. Then the multi shadow clone feat would adjust that to maybe x 2.--Azura (talk) 12:36, 25 January 2023 (MST)

I was using the Gates as an example, there are multiple features that cause exhaustion that shouldn't be able to be used with impunity for 4 chakra (especially once you get out of this class, such as a barbarian's Frenzy). That being said, I've modified it so that exhaustion effectively counts as damage for clones, which should solve both problems.--Ref3rence (talk) 16:06, 25 January 2023 (MST)

Yeah that works. I was way over complicating it.--Azura (talk) 17:26, 25 January 2023 (MST)

So for transparent escape jutsu why does it only last 1 turn? Invisibility that lasts an hour is only a 2nd level spell? even if it's the grater version and doesn't break after an attack it's still for a full minute, but it is a 4th level spell, which is like 1 more point of chakra according to the table.

Jutsu are generally meant to be weaker than spells, since shinobi without chakra is generally a bigger threat than a caster without spell slots. I've jimmied around the balance a little bit, but the intent is that you're giving up duration for the ability to still do things. Cost-wise, it's currently roughly equal to a 3rd level spell, which sits right with me.--Ref3rence (talk) 16:52, 24 January 2023 (MST)

That's fair, and even if they aren't meant to be weaker than spells ironically the shinobi do seem to focus more on brute force attacks than subtle skills anyway. So having these ninja not very good at stealth skills... actually checks out.--Azura (talk) 12:36, 25 January 2023 (MST)

I feel like there should be a choice whether a clone is affected by an active feature you have or so, since with things like path of succession, if a karma is active you will not be able to use a clone as they'll dissipate almost immediately. And to add on that, in Boruto's fight with Code, his karma was active but he was seen fighting alongside clones without karma. But I've posted this here first because I'm not sure if it's good for balance. P@uL (talk) 11:11, 6 April 2023 (MDT)

It doesn't affect balance, since it wouldn't change the strength of the individual clones, and the Boruto point pretty much seals the deal for me. Should be on page now.--Ref3rence (talk)

I got a question regarding Sannin mode, does it half the total cost or initial cost of a jutsu? For example: lets say I'm in Sannin Moded and I super charge Chidori, is it the initial cast that is halved or total chakra put in after the fact? Mulan316 (talk) 23:34, 20 September 2023 (MDT) Mulan316