Talk:Abomination (5e Class)

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What does changing into your abomination form actually do?

stuff. Red Leg Leo (talk) 17:38, 15 August 2020 (MDT)

Balance Issues[edit]

I love this class and it's concept, but there is so much missing from it that I feel needs to be worked on. Other than simple grammatical errors, many of its abilities feel entirely over or underpowered. I'll start with just the vanilla abilities, but I have a bone to pick with a few of the manifestations.

Specific examples being:

And now, manifestations:

The Demon and Raven Beast are not quite as overpowered or instantly make me turn and stare, but a smart player would only ever choose Demon Beast as there is LITERALLY no downside. You don't take a single negative state decrease and you gain the ability to fly. That's nuts. If we're insistent on keeping the "some scores increase but others go down," the Demon should take negatives just as the other two.

Like others said, I enjoy a lot about this class and it's concept, but a lot of work needs to be done before it's complete.
Stress I don't think selecting an additional stress trigger is necessary.
Savage Strike Verbiage. "When you successfully hit a target, you may spend 1 stress point to increase the damage by 1d8" I think 1d6 is better/more balanced. Just my opinion though.
Beast Armor Why 12 instead of 10? Using 10 seems pretty standard and not capping it as well. Can we agree to switch to this?
Beast's Bite Cantrips are a solution for spellcasters to be relevant when spells are gone. Since this class gets extra attacks, it unnecessary for it to have cantrips like this. In addition, the name is "bite" not spit. Flavor wise it doesn't add up. (and please don't change the name just to make it flavor, the feature needs balanced for reasons mentioned)
Eldritch Blood e.g. level 10, for 10minutes I have +2 attack, and can do that as an action (no different than normal) and it deals 1d4 damage to me when I do attack, or any other action. Please explain how this is a good thing?
Wrathful Gaze I think this should be an action, not a bonus action. Some wording issues as well, but I focus balance first.
Extra Attack Please follow fighter guideline for this. It's the only class by 1st party to get 3 extra attacks (iirc) and you've given this one 4.
Absolution 5e doesn't use a duration system like this class has. Rather, everything lasts 1 round, 1 minute, 10 minutes, 1 hour, 8 hours, 1 day, 1 week, etc. I might be okay to make this feature last 1 minute, and every round gain hit points equal to the amount of stress points to spend.
Rain of Blood Spend all points, deal AoE damage 5 to 10 feet in a cone or circle, and then gain 3 stress points. Clarify the range and I would make the stress points gained equal to the number of targets hit. yes, you could end up finishing with more points then you started. Kind of cool right?
Ageless level 19 just came out of no where, maybe slip this down where it belongs? lol
Glutton for Punishment If people are intimidated, why would they attack this? you really wanna deafen your allies?
Damnation's Gift Opposite of ageless, needs moved up :p but I also think there's a rework necessary. I don't think it should regain all stress points, since it can gain them through combat and the hit point return could be massive at higher levels. I would add this to be done as a reaction.
Inhuman Bondage a DoT Fireball? AWESOME! but way to powerful lol and 5e doesn't have channeling. I think I need to know your goal with this, or your vision of what you want it to do in order to help. bondage seems like you want something restrained, but this does a lot of damage only.
With all that, I really like the class. The stress point mechanic is really cool, I enjoy things like this. With some grammar corrections and balance, I think you've got a solid article (barring subclass review) I hope to see this improve. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 09:09, 31 January 2018 (MST)
First of all thank you for your help to make this class more balanced and improve it! Next up: The original owner seems to have long abandoned this class and at some point it seems like I just took over. Now let me go through the critic points you mentioned
Stress Done
Beast Armor Done
Beast's Bile It's "Bile", not "Bite" btw. Regarding that feature I am unsure what to make of it but I know that this whole class is based on a character of a game that can spit acid. I guess that's the reason for this existing
Eldritch Blood Reworked a bit, check again please
Wrathful Gaze Done
Extra Attack There are only 3 extra attacks. In the description of the feature it says 4 due to the total amount of attacks being 4 at that point. That is only as much as the Fighter receives too
Absolution Done
Rain of Blood Done...?
Ageless Done
Glutton for Punishment Reworked a bit, check please
Damnation's Gift Same
Inhuman Bondage I have literally no idea what the original goal was but I also have no idea what to make out of this. Open for everything
So yeah, thank you once again! --Asriel (talk) 09:36, 31 January 2018 (MST)
I don't think anyone has ever taken my advice so literal before lol thanks for trusting my input :) I apologize about the bile thing and I will try to think of a solution so he can spit acid. Might take a breath weapon route, or simply make it so the cantrip doesn't scale with levels (I prefer the latter). Eldritch Blood I still think should have advantage vs +2 just because of the game system. To alleviate confusion, I'd copy pasta fighter verbiage. "Beginning at 5th level, you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn. The number of attacks increases to three when you reach 10th level in this class and to four when you reach 17th level in this class." For the Glutton of Punishment, what is the difference between creatures and hostiles? The rest looks good though. And I will brainstorm something "cool" for the level 20 thing. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 10:03, 31 January 2018 (MST)
Alright, next update:
About the cantrip I don't understand why it shouldn't scale as it normally does. If a race or a feat grants access to a cantrip it also scales normally like the cantrip always does, doesn't it?
Eldritch Blood sounds good so I made that to advantage. I was thinking about making it for all attacks on that turn but that's too much, is it?
Fixed the Extra Attack thing
The difference between a "creature" and a "hostile" is that, as you said before "creature" does include allies. Of course it's not nice to deafen them but it's a natural thing to happen. Spellcasters have to watch out where they shoot their spells and with what person around them and this class has to watch out as to whether it deafens allies
Nice to hear you will come up with something for level 20! Really saves me there --Asriel (talk) 10:30, 31 January 2018 (MST)
All fair points, how do you feel about it being a level 1 spell that can be cast "x" times? equal to int modifier or con modifier. The eldritch blood on all attacks could go either way. I believe right now it should be okay, and if needed, buff it to apply on all attacks. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 11:37, 31 January 2018 (MST)
Yes, I guess it could be changed to that. Then I will move Savage Strike to second level tho since it otherwise seems like too many lvl 1 features. Also "x" times could be level / something with a minimum use of 1, couldn't it? And finally (see below for stress difficulties) maybe there should be an additional stress trigger, making you gain stress whenever you hit an attack --Asriel (talk) 06:42, 2 February 2018 (MST)
While going through the subclasses I had the thought for each one, why doesn't the additional feature effects get included somehow that isn't like a sidebar? Have you any thoughts about this or considered the same thing? These are essentially passives, which would increase the power level some degree at times. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 11:42, 20 February 2018 (MST)

further balance issue[edit]

my name is --Triten (talk) 09:08, 7 October 2017 (MDT) and i am currently using this class in campaign(race=chicken)i love the concept but needs some mechanical improvements.

archetype demon- lv3 demonic entity - how long does the flight last?

archetype demon- lv11/13 demonic pact/summons - please add more detail to the summon creatures or add dm discretion.

Lots of changes[edit]

Alright I applied a lot of changes to this class and will probably keep adding more until it is fitting and seems well. Please keep reporting unbalanced features and such. Thanks in before --Asriel (talk) 06:34, 22 November 2017 (MST)

So, I am ready to start working on lore and flavor things for this class. I've had a lot of fun balancing and creating things for this. It reminds of playing Magic: The Gathering with the transform cards. Or, League of Legends and its champion Gnar. I think there's a great potential for lots of subclasses (manifestations) due to the function/mechanic/nature of this class. Hope you enjoy the recent changes. I'll be asking for 2nd set of eyes and at that point, be prepared for more nerfs :p BigShotFancyMan (talk) 13:44, 14 March 2018 (MDT)

Inhuman Bondage[edit]

Not really the scope of balancing, so new topic area. This is what I've got in mind. The title makes me think the OP wanted something that kept enemies in place while still doing damage. I think this will need some peer review, although I really toned down the damage so hopefully that helps. Considering that this will do 10 rounds of damage within 60! feet, AND they might not move. I really like it which means someone is gonna rain on the parade haha. I realize the cost is high, but considering you gain points by attacking and dealing damage, with 4 attacks, that COULD be 8 points in one turn. If there are SP left over from another encounter (since these don't diminish) it is possible to use this on round 1. Otherwise, round 3 if at 0 SP.

"At 20th level, you use your curse to decimate your enemies. As an action, and 20 stress points, you create an aura that surrounds you for 1 minute. Enemies that start their turn within 60 feet of you must make a Wisdom saving throw. On failure, they take 3d6 Psychic damage and become Restrained, otherwise they only take half damage. You must finish a long rest before using this feature again." BigShotFancyMan (talk) 12:37, 31 January 2018 (MST)

That sounds nice but there are some problems here:
1. You do not gain Stress by attacking and hitting but by being attacked and being hit. Therefore it might just take a long, long time to get to these 20 stress points (which is also why there was a second trigger)
2. Once you reach maximum stress points (20 in this case) you immediately turn into the beast. Now, getting back to getting stress points by being hit, we assume you are hit and reach 20 stress points. Then you start your turn, instantly loosing 2 stress points due to the beast form. How would you ever be at 20 stress points successfully? The only possiblity would be getting attacked in your turn without using your action.. so most likely just willingly taking opportunity attacks.
This kind of prevents a realistic use of this feature, tho I like what you made out of it --Asriel (talk) 06:42, 2 February 2018 (MST)
Man my bad, I misread that part about stress points. Well, I see you've added a trigger. I don't disagree with adding triggers, just that they should be clear and concise rather than arbitrary. personal opinion. In that regards, what about changing dealing damage to whenever an ally is attacked? The sight of friends being attacked is stressful? and a little later after that, whenever an ally takes damage, gain a stress point. essentially, you and allies being attacked or hurt is stressful lol
I also missed the part about maximum stress forces manifestation. I suppose reducing damage to 2d6 and stress cost to 15 wouldn't be so bad. Enemies are going to have multiple attacks, so his stress wouldn't take long to increase. Part of me thinks that this feature shouldn't be activated during a manifestation as well, opinion? BigShotFancyMan (talk) 08:22, 2 February 2018 (MST)
I'll change the trigger, that sounds good, as well as adding the second proposition regarding stress.
Yes that should work with 15 stress points and lower damage. As for activating this feature in the Abomination... no I guess that should be impossible. That form has its own strengths and doesn't need an "ultimate feature" like this, especially since it would decrease its duration drastically --Asriel (talk) 08:38, 2 February 2018 (MST)

Lycanthrope Manifestation[edit]

It's easier to talk about things separately for me.
Feral Kind: No 1st party class gives extra ASI as part of a feature (except the actual ASI). +5, even with any negatives, is a whole lot. Think in terms of advantages on different skill checks or saving throws. I'm not a fan of balancing positives with negatives and you'll see in core books that WoTC doesn't practice this either, most the time (there are feats that do). The extra movement speed is a lot, consider like +5 movement speed when moving toward enemies that are below half hit points aka 4e used the term bloodied. I've always enjoyed doing that at my table to inform the PCs but 5e doesn't use that as a condition so we can't put bloodied in as a term. And lastly, scaling claw damage that benefits from str and dex. Wow. I'd start the damage at 1d6 normal and 1d8 manifested. scale it at levels 10/11 and 17/18 to 1d8/1d10 and 1d10/1d12. I wouldn't allow it to be str and dex. also needs to be noted the abomination is proficient with these claws and I'd say can use either str or dex. Lastly, does this make one claw attack per attack option? Or is it allowed to as an action make two claw attacks?
Beast Wrath: I am not sure if this is too early, and also blindsense seems more appropriate but again, I need to see if this triat/feature exists in 5e.
Feral Rage: Might be simpler as immune to enchantments and advantage against illusions while manifested.
Fear: I am not sure what the goal is this, in terms of taking the damage. I would word it to gain stress points equal your levels in this class (meaning you could exceed the cap)or a number equal to half.
Go for the Throat: Blindsense would accomplish the first part I believe and I think the rest could be worded: "On a critical hit, you may use a bonus action to make a bite attack, dealing 2d6 + Strength modifier bludgeoning damage and regain hit points equal to the damage dealt." limiting this to critical hits and as a bonus action removes the need to short/long rest to use a gain. It would also mean this only works while in manifestation, which I am not sure if that bothers you, but no stress cost :)
Alpha Wolf: "round counting" is a term I loathe but it is what is used to describe this. 5e doesn't practice it and instead, as I think I've mentioned, 1 round, 1 minute, etc. What bothers me more is this feature implies that this can't use his claws to attack unless Alpha Wolf is activated. huge bummer to me. It seems the goal is to deal acid damage with melee attacks and possibly incapacitate. So, I would suggest make it just that. "As a bonus action and "x" stress points, you bring the bile from your stomach to your mouth and coat your ferocious wolf mandible. For one minute, this can make bite attacks that deal 2d6 + str modifier bludgeoning and requires a Con saving throw. Failure means 2d6 acid damage and incapacitated or only half damage on success. A creature incapacitated by this cannot be incapacitated again for 24 hours. You must complete a short or long rest before using this feature again."
That's all I got for this manifestation. Try and give my thoughts on another today if I can. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 09:07, 2 February 2018 (MST)

Just because a feature like this doesn't exist yet, does it mean it cannot be made? Homebrew classes are made with the goal of creating something new and, so far thanks to the stress point cost of the manifestation, the asi has proven to be no problem. The movement has been reduced but I think it's only natural to be faster due to dem animal legs. Damage is no longer Str & Dex and it only makes one claw attack per attack action (doesn't have the "light" property or something like that after all)
Blindsense does not exist in 5e, it's called Blindsight. Reduced the radius too
No longer exists, as this was the one weakness imposed in the asi. Instead it has a transformation feature now
Removed Blindsight as it turned unnecessary here and changed it a bit but everything else should stay as it is
No more round counting and the normal damage has simply been given acid damage now.
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Asriel (talkcontribs) . Please sign your posts.
I agree 100% that new things should be created, especially if there is a desire to make something new that WotC didn't come up with. With that though, WotC placed a certain level of value in ASI's that they're only given 5 times, except for the fighter. They restricted ASI's so much that you have to get to level 4 of a class, not character. While I don't find ASIs the most important factor for 5e, there is a considerable amount of value in them, esp giving multiple abilities +5. Homebrew is encouraged, but balance is just as important. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 11:54, 6 February 2018 (MST)

Demon Beast[edit]

The first few features made me excited that this could be a manifestation without stress cost. The benefits would be minor but the static or minor buffs would be free.
Demonic Entity: The ASI has got to go, same as the Lycanthrope. We can play with the extra damage being okay, and I think a fly speed should scale since community agrees 5th level is when PCs get access to fly.
Fiendish Delights: I'd just make this the first attack made each turn heals for half the damage dealt. Static buff with limited applications. I like this feature a lot.
Demonic Pact: Make it free and clarify what the familiar is (monster manual or wiki link)
Summons: This needs clarifying aka specifics for what is summoned and when it can summon and how long they last.
Burning Aura: Make it free. (if this being a no stress cost sub class is agreed). If there are power level concerns, make the aura do damage equal to an ability score modifier or if it needs a buff, how many levels are in this class. (the aura would scale with levels then)
Sin Form: Kind of cool. Not sure how I feel a form within a form though. We can work with it though.
This could be my favorite form because free stuff, possibly. Looked forward to seeing your thoughts. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 14:06, 2 February 2018 (MST)

I'll see to this later —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Asriel (talkcontribs) . Please sign your posts.
It seems that the Demon Beast manifestation is missing a feature at level 13 right now. Balzurth 8:07, 29 September 2020 (MST)
Boy, you ain't a kidding. Any ideas for that level? Red Leg Leo (talk) 06:43, 1 October 2020 (MDT)
I brainstormed a few ideas, by no means complete, but here's what I got. A quick note is that I feel the first two are more suited for ravenbeast and lycanthrope respectively, but they are ideas nonetheless.
Shadow Hunter: (recharge 4-6) as an action, you can morph into the shadows and reappear in front of any target that is casting a shadow within 90 feet. This cannot be used if there is magic light illuminating the target.
Blood Frenzy: as a bonus action, and at the cost of 3 stress points, you may perform another attack against a creature you have previously hit this turn. This is not considered another action, and once you use this feature you cannot do so again until you finish a short or long rest.
Demonic Instinct: before you manifest, you may decide to enter a more primal demon state. If you do, for the next minute, the manifestation now consumes four stress points, and you can no longer take reactions. However, your movement speed is doubled, and your melee attacks deal an additional 2d6 fire damage. Once you use this feature, you cannot use it again until you finish a long rest.
Acidic Blood: when you are hit by an attack, creatures within 5 feet of you must make a dexterity saving throw. On a fail, the creature takes acid damage equal to half the damage that you took. A creature that was successful takes no damage this way.
These are just my vague ideas, but if they do give you ideas, feel free to tweak and change them to be more balanced, fit better with the manifestation, etc.. I tried to make them feel just as powerful as the other manifestation level 13 features, but I am fairly new to homebrewing and even DMing, so I understand that some balance may be needed. Balzurth 19:03, 12 October 2020 (MST)

Raven Beast[edit]

Finally getting back to balancing this class!

  • Mystical Form- This has ASI issues just like the other subclasses.
  • Untapped Magic- I'd link or define what these undead are. example: special qualities, resistances, immunities. In addition, how does the cost relate to the minions? Would every time a minion be created you lose 2 points?
  • Mastery of Life and Death- how much damage is dealt? Would it be cool if the number of rounds the undead survived after the blast be equal to the amount of stress used? I'd need another opinion on balance, but it sounds cool to do it that way. (I ask myself, why round? Where does this number come from?)
  • Breath of Death- 1 stress point to deal 8-18 poison damage in a 30 feet cone seems a bit strong. keeping the damage the same-ish, I'd increase the point cost to 3. I'd fix the wording to ranged abomination attack (it's not a spell or weapon attack but the verbiage is in line with other things in DnD) and you can use prof bonus and con modifier. I would not include the math, rather put that at the very beginning of the base class that any attack like this, the abomination uses this calculation, much like a spellcaster would. The +6 damage doesn't make sense to me either. Most extra damage is based on an ability modifier. I'd suggest Con. Final critique, I'd use the recharge wording from any monster. In it's current state, it is round counting (just waiting 6 rounds)
  • Master of Skies- This is a pretty drastic change for higher level. Make it a choice to use either str or dex. I don't see too much and issue using both for skill checks, which is how I interpret the next part. The last tid bit is neat, but boy it'd stink if every time you're DM said there's no birds. And, what are the stress points for again? at what point are they used?
  • Shifting Creature- I like the shapeshift thing but then it seems to be just adding on and on and seeing how much can be added before someone says alright man enough! lol I'd skim some things away from this, namely the undead petrification and maybe the summon bird thing. I like the feather attacks while manifested.

Overall, I think because of Master of the Skies I had the idea this subclass could more freely change in to and out of its manifestation. I am all about identity with subclasses so that each feel and play different I think this is a neat idea for Raven Beast. Hope all is well. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 11:39, 20 February 2018 (MST)

I have seen many people do thoughtless changes and similar. Thank you for keeping a track of everything! I will be absent a while longer so feel free to work on the class as you see fit --Asriel (talk) 14:21, 4 March 2018 (MST)

Question about Inhuman Bondage + Feral Kind/Demonic Entity/Mystic Form[edit]

So, my question is, is the last option of Feral Kind/Demonic Entity/Mystic Form, in addition to what Inhuman Bondage does or does Inhuman Bondage change to become what is listed under FK/DE/MF?

The last option are an addition to Inhuman Bondage. The effects stack. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 23:44, 22 June 2018 (MDT)
Thank you.
yup no problem! May I ask, are you testplaying this? I’ve become fond of this class and really need to polish it up. So I’d love to hear feedback. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 09:04, 23 June 2018 (MDT)

Stress manifestation[edit]

I was just curious, do you automatically transform at level 3 to your manifestation when you get three stress points or can you save them up to change into the manifestation whenever you want, or do you have to roll above a certain number to keep from transforming unless you choose to do so freely? I saw there was a manifestation dc save but I don't understand what that's for I just don't understand how the transformation works but otherwise I enjoy the class very much keep up the good work.

The manifestation is automatic. The DC is for any features that an enemy might have to roll. I am glad you like it, it is one of my favorites for sure due to the different play style it can create. Red Leg Leo (talk) 22:37, 7 February 2020 (MST)
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