Talk:Naruto Shinobi, Fun Variant (5e Class)

Purpose?

Looking through the changes between this page and Naruto: Shinobi (5e Class), I can't help but ask: is the only point of this variant to be overpowered? The core class's unarmed die is limited to what it is so as to not outshine a monk's, which maxes out at 1d10, whereas this class's exceeds that at 10th level (the same can be said for unarmored movement, which maxes out at +30 ft. on both the original page and monk). I'm already not a huge fan of the core class granting 2 extra attacks, but granting 3 on top of everything this class grants is absurd, since that's a fighter's main thing, and they only reach 3 extra attacks as their 20th level feature.

I also take issue with the header. As far as I can tell, this page achieves more "FUN" by being massively more powerful than every other class in the game, which isn't fair to the other players at your table and will massively decrease their own fun. As for being "MORE CANON", the only thing mentioned in the header that actually has to do with something being canon is whether or not dojutsu cost chakra to maintain, and while they cost significantly more chakra to maintain if implanted, a natural dojutsu still requires a small amount of chakra to use (in the base class, they cost the least chakra possible).--Ref3rence (talk) 11:33, 27 December 2023 (MST)

We understand your concerns, however the main purpose of this class is to stay true to the scaling of Naruto, in D&D terms, yes, this would mean overpowered but the base class itself is too lackluster, expending various amount of chakra to only deal an 8d6 is not worth it essentially considering how little chakra one has.(talk)

If your main issue with how the original class plays is the chakra/damage ratio, take it up there, the discussion tab for that page is huge because we actually read it and I would be interested in ironing that out (though I will mention that 8d6 damage is probably more than you're expecting, and if the issue is how much chakra you need to spend Chakra Regeneration and Chakra Exhaustion are right there). Otherwise, if staying fully true to the scaling of Naruto is your desire, I don't think a 5e homebrew class is the right way to do it, especially not in the main section of the wiki (if you want to host overpowered content on this wiki, it either has to be on a user page or in a setting with its own balance framework). The gap in power between an academy student and a Six Paths tier character is somewhere in the billions of times (by speed alone, a jonin-level character is just under a million times faster than a chunin-level character, since most jonin are relativistic while most chunin are around the speed of sound), while there's only a difference of 5 between a 1st level and 20th level player's checks and saving throws in 5e. In my opinion, full accuracy with reasonable rule density could really only be achieved in its own system (I might still have some notes from my own attempt at a Naruto system, so if in the end you go this round and it ends up being developed in a public space I would love to contribute what I can).--Ref3rence (talk) 17:19, 31 December 2023 (MST)

Another answer

yes, the point is being stronger, since there's simply no way the Naruto world can be portrayed in D&D rules while being balanced compared to other normal classes, especially when compared to the worst of all: Monk. This is also meant for being used in a table where everyone is playing it, like in a Naruto setting, which is the point of making a supplement, so no other player would feel outclassed. Additionally, no one deleted the other class, so if a DM wants to balance something out in a Naruto + normal Fantasy setting he can just use that. --(talk)

I would mostly agree with you (save for Monk being the worst class, DPR isn't everything, especially with Flurry of Blows + Stunning Strike/Quivering Palm, but that's not my main point) if it were not for the fact that this is being hosted in the main namespace of the wiki. It's wiki policy that all main namespace content should be usable alongside all official content, and no indication is given on-page, in the page name, or in the categories that this is meant for anything other than that, and the keeping and expanding of the One Currency System directly refutes the idea that this is meant to be played in a vacuum.

Additionally, even if we handwave all the balance issues, I would still take issue with the presentation of this class as the "Fun Variant". The presentation of the numerous

people who built up the original, which this page is based off of in the first place, as "HAT[ing] FUN" is just plain rude, and might be in violation of the wiki's behavioral policy (though I personally don't believe it should be, at least not in this case). If you want this to be a "Canon Variant" or even just a "2nd Variant" (as has become standard on this wiki) that would be completely fine, but we should avoid insulting fellow contributors.--Ref3rence (talk) 17:19, 31 December 2023 (MST)

I partially agree with the name change, but I fundamentally disagree with monk being the balance point for much of anything. In as setting in which players care about being effective to any degree at literally anything, CC, damage, durability, utility, or even all of the above at once in the case of spellcasters, it is terrible to the point of near-uselessness. A tasha's summon spell is unironically more useful than the monk's entire kit in most combats. Why would anyone ever balance around it specifically? Why not around, say, fighter, or wizard, or paladin, any class which is, aside from that first one, which while better is still pretty meh compared to a lot of classes in such a setting, not so terribly abysmal is to be outdone by an official spell that doesn't even mass summon?

And to that end comparing this to paladin and wizard, other high tier official classes, it's not really overpowered. Strong, sure, but plenty of classes can outdo it in numerous ways at most levels. The Archmage Karsus (talk) 18:20, 31 December 2023 (MST)

I wasn't saying "this is stronger than monk, therefore it's unbalanced", my point in comparing it to monk is that how a monk's unarmed die and unarmored movement speed scaling is the precedent set by official content for those features. To draw balance comparisons from fighter, a fighter's 20th level feature is their third extra attack, which this class gets at 17th level as stated in Extra Attack's description, but not the class table for some reason. With this in mind, a 20th level fighter is capable of 2d6x4 (28) DPR, while this class, is capable of 2d8+1d12x4 (62) DPR at 17th level, and 4d12x4 (104) DPR at 20th level before taking jutsu into account (without even looking too hard, basic taijutsu technique brings this up to 156, Cherry Blossom Impact brings this up to 208 (both of which surpasses Meteor Swarm's 140 average, can crit, and can be repeated for 18 rounds straight, or 54 rounds with Strength of a Hundred) or both for 260 DPR (repeatable for 6 rounds, more with path features)). Even removing the third Extra Attack, you're still left with 78 DPR (104 w/BTT, 156 w/CBI, 208/both).

This is without mentioning the numerous ways of increasing one's AC, movement speed, and attack and damage rolls, healing features, or utility jutsu which, while certainly strong in the original, do not push this class nearly to this level of strength. Without exploiting coffeelock, I fail to see how this class fits in the balance of even the top tiers.--Ref3rence (talk) 10:33, 3 January 2024 (MST)

Your numbers are extremely off for both the fighter and the shinobi here, using that same calculation, ignoring flat damage, and accuracy for… whatever reason, evidently a base game animate dead with slot investment does 142x1d6 497 constant dpr for the entire day with no further investment. This is lesser than combinations like planar binding and ignores undead thralls so it’s still actively a low ball, but still. Of course that much is accurate, right? Let alone, say, minions are too much. Spirit shroud 7th level + eldritch blast + quickened spell. 8 blasts each dealing 3d8+1d10, so 152. Add in the wish spell for a simulacrum and you get 304, over the very top of this class again. Need I go on? I haven’t even gotten to control and lockdown or support capabilities yet, this class just isn’t that strong. Knowing that, it’s very easy to see how people could find the original needlessly weak, thus unfun. Which makes sense given decisions like following monk and using meteor swarm(a spell only particularly amazing at mass aoe even for wizards) as a single target metric. Mind you I used the utterly innacurate metrics you used, ignoring most of the math to say fighter has a dpr of 28. Like fighter isn’t amazing, but in no universe was fighter ever that terrible. I’ll post corrections though for the proper numbers, because it does in fact outdamage fighter. Just not that much, even when ignoring subclasses and accuracy as you did. The Archmage Karsus (talk) 14:20, 4 January 2024 (MST)

Is… Is this real? 28 dpr for a fighter, meteor swarm vs single targets when wizards have 20 times better options for that purpose, lack of accuracy calcs to upscale (this is how we get skeletons from a necromancy wizard touching thousands of dpr)… I can’t take this seriously. If you’re going to provide math to make a case for something being overpowered, at least make that math honest. HeavenAscensionDIO101 (talk) 14:42, 4 January 2024 (MST)

Sorry for the delay, sometimes life happens all at once. I omitted accuracy and flat damage since it doesn't result in much meaningful difference between the core of this class and fighter, and there are a variety of potential builds and targets, and while I should have said so, I figured would be obvious. I still stand by my stance that the third extra attack needs to go and that a 3d12+1d4 to 4d12 unarmed die is a bit overtuned, but at this point I just don't have the energy to argue over a hobby, especially if every response is going to contain this level of bad faith. I already don't have much free time, the last thing I should be spending it on is trying to convince people that would rather condescend to me than correct me.--Ref3rence (talk) 22:04, 13 January 2024 (MST)

Cool, but don’t call it bad faith when you’re called out on misrepresenting something this hard. Accounting for basic feat and weapon choices which this shinobi lacks access to we get a dpr 86% higher than what you said for a completely subclassless fighter. ((5.5+15)*0.4*4+0.05*5.5*4)*(1+1/3)+0.4*17.5+0.05*2.5 Dpr, or 52.325 dpr, for a polearm user. For a crossbow user, which is just better, you instead deal ((3.5+15)*0.5*4+0.05*3.5*4)*(1+1/3)+0.5*18.5+0.05*3.5 or 59.6916666667, 113% over what was stated. On the flip side even accounting for flat damage shinobi does far less than what you said, a taijutsu build accounting for accuracy and the fact that you can only use basic taijutsu and cherry blossom together half the time is roughly (52*0.7+0.65*10)*5 or 214.5 dpr at level 20, at level 17 it is a mere (((31*0.7+0.65*10)*5 or 141. Accounting for crits. For the level 20 metric this is 20% lower than what you stated. If you HEAVILY low ball and also high ball you cannot thusly get mad when called out. Mind you animate dead at 20th level does 142*(0.45*14.5+0.05*3.5) or 951.4 dpr, even a part of the army would utterly curbstomp this version of shinobi. In multiple senses you were simply completely innacurate. The Archmage Karsus (talk) 12:24, 16 January 2024 (MST)

Complete Body Susano'o

Design Note: This section was split from the Purpose? section.

The only other matter of canon I can glean is Complete-Body Susano'o no longer being a Mangekyo power, but this was put in place not only for balance reasons, but because Itachi never achieved it after years of using his Susano'o (which he clearly used regularly if he evolved it to Armored Susano'o) and the only users of CPS only gain use of it after gaining EMS (Madara and Sasuke) or Six Paths chakra (Indra and Kakashi/Obito).--Ref3rence (talk) 11:33, 27 December 2023 (MST)

An the last statement about Kakashi is simply not true, he gained CPS after gaining both Mangekyou and the only thing the six paths chakra did was help use it's abilities over and over again without straining his eyes. So no, CPS doesn't only appear on EMS or Six path chakra obtainment, why Itachi doesn't have the complete version isn't known because it isn't explaind. It's also not explained of how one acquires CPS though it is mentioned the Susanoo itself goes through several stages through training and we don't even know how many times Itachi himself has used the Susanoo in the years to pass by, however your concerns about Canon material has been noted and will be put in consideration.(talk)

I disagree with your interpretation of Kakashi Susano'o, since if his acquisition of CPS was only from having both Mangekyo he would've had Skeletal Susano'o, which would then have to be evolved through repeated use. The only differences one can really point to

that would effect its evolution is either Obito's soul possession or the fact that Obito passed on his and Hagoromo's Six Paths chakra, which is backed up by Sasuke only acquiring CPS at the same time as his Rinnegan.--Ref3rence (talk) 17:19, 31 December 2023 (MST)

Also, we will be taking your claims of canon for the mongekyo sharingan into actual consideration, as you backed your claims using actual canon material, which the class will be entirely based on. While we will not be changing the full bosy susano'o to cost mongekyo ability slots, we will however make it only obtainable to those using the eternal mongekyo sharingan. Thank you for the correction, as it doesnt make sense that despite being a ninjutsu savant, itachi was never able to use full body susano'o. --(talk)

Thank you for taking it into consideration. The original class had it as a double Mangekyo feature as the EMS boon grants two additional MS abilities, and it didn't seem all that out of the realm of possibility that a particular Mangekyo ability could solely empower one's Susano'o.--Ref3rence (talk) 17:19, 31 December 2023 (MST)