Talk:Gravity Warrior (3.5e Class)
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- Comment — Some problems: Address this too: (I would recommend contacting those forum users about their insight and knowledge) forum the class
- "+2 circumstance bonus" should be a "+2 enhancement bonus" like SRD:Bull's Strength.
- High-Gravity Zone is Ex but it seems quiet magical being able to be placed within 100 ft. Maybe Su would be better. Also "once per combat" needs to be "once per encounter".
- Gravity Well should also be Su I feel, and needs to offer a save every round.
- This class needs to address the points I brought up on the other page. It's over the top. Lots of places have discussed this class too, and its not great. http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nck8?Gravity-Warrior-35-Homebrew-conversion
- I am not sure if Leaden Weight should be granted at 7th level. This seems a little early. Prestige Classes that merge combat with spellcasting (as this ability is) normally have somewhere around level 10 requirements. This is the same with Impact.
- Earth Hammer is too powerful in a battle. It needs to function like High-Gravity Zone or deal no damage just knock creatures down (this is already a lot to disrupt the battle play).
- Great Leaden Weight should be removed since he already has weapon modifiers, Str modifiers, etc. It's over the top. If anything, replace it with an ability not too related to combat, like Feather Fall or something.
- Same with Improved Impact. It's an overpowered version of SRD:Keen which is not okay.
- Tectonic Hammer is in the same boat as Earth Hammer. This class needs to stop stacking this ability on top of itself and do more exploration and less powergaming.
- Tectonic Hammer may work if the really good combat abilities are treated somewhat like Quivering Palm. That is an excellent combat ability but its gameplay is made possible because of its useability restrictions. Why have a range? When you get it it's already 100ft. How many squares are in 100 ft? And for EACH of those to give "or fall prone, become stunned for 3 rounds, and take 8d10 + Strength modifier damage." with flyback is BAD". --Green Dragon (talk) 12:19, 9 June 2014 (MDT)
- Alright let me run down the list. Not sure why some of my changes didn't save but redoing.
- The circumstance bonus only helps on skills, and does not modify combat or class abilities, so if we changed it to an enhancement bonus it would have to affect those. I think it is more balanced as a bonus to just skills, though perhaps reduced to +1 (still kicking that one about in my head).
- All of the abilities should be supernatural. I didn't catch that before. No one could ever claim that being able to manipulate gravity would be Extraordinary, since no amount of training allows someone to manipulate gravity. That is changed.
- I don't necessarily think that impact is too early. For PHB yes this thing would be incredible and early but if you also look later in WotC (say the dragon shaman in PHB II, complete warrior, etc) this is about right. It certainly isn't anywhere as near game breaking as the ranged breath weapon like a dragon coupled with the aura that dragon shamans get.
- Earth hammer I don't see as much as an issue because it isn't targetable. Its the same theory as a fireball, yea it does great AoE and messes up your party as well. The stun was suppose to be 1 round with 1 round staggered, and I have updated the info to address that.
- Great Leaden Weight I think will take the place of Greater Impact. The other option I was looking at was making Greater Impact function like collision and make it non stackable with the psionic weapon enhancement. Adding .5 strength damage per turn isn't going to get even a giant excited though (if you have 40 strength you add 30 damage on your swing instead of 23, and 7 points can make a difference but it certainly doesn't shatter the game mechanics).
- Tectonic Hammer I could replace with a single target attack but it would be fairly monstrous as a level 20 ability. I believe the offset with friendly fire also includes making this attack difficult to use in most settings successfully, unless the gravity warrior wants to turn his party to animosity rapidly.
- Okay, circumstance is better then.
- The grav warrior has "Density Manipulation" which gives fortification bonuses' which I think should replace Improved Impact (I like this ability). Its too much optimizing the character's damage, and something like "Density Manipulation" would change the optimization problem here.
- Great Leaden Weight is better.
- I like the 5-round cooldown but then why would you ever use Ground Hammer again? I would increase the cooldown time for the higher-level abilities.
- The epic and NPC still need the mechanical changes which the rest got as well.
- Pretty close now! When these are addressed, I believe it is good-to-go. It would be good to get more input as well. --Green Dragon (talk) 13:41, 9 June 2014 (MDT)
- Well there are a few reasons to use earth or or ground hammer. If you need to stun your opponent and cause lesser damage (or if someone from your own party falls into the affect) its a good option. Ground hammer is good for subduing an opponent without chancing killing them or bystanders. Both have a niche so I figured the shared cooldown would be better. I am open to raising the cooldown of tectonic to either 6 or 7 but I would prefer to leave earth hammer at 5; it has hard enough justification for use after tectonic is available. Tivanir (talk) 14:28, 9 June 2014 (MDT)
- Ground Hammer becomes obsolete as it is now. Earth Hammer is useable, because of the lower countdown, but still probably not going to be used. Maybe change the countdowns to 3,6,9 (and the epic 12)?
- It would be nice to have some combat information on the NPC (and maybe a backstory). How does the NPC approach a round of combat? If he is ambushed is there a difference from a head-on engagement on a battlefield? --Green Dragon (talk) 15:38, 9 June 2014 (MDT)
- Several wording concerns. Many of the wordings on abilities are rather questionable; for example, Ground Hammer (and it's later iterations):
- "At 3rd level a gravity warrior gains the ability to focus the forces of gravity that course through his body into his fist, making it immensely heavy. His fist gains so much weight that the only action he can take is to punch the ground beneath him, creating such an impact that all opponents within a 5 ft. for every 2 gravity warrior levels blast radius, maximum 100 ft., who are in contact with the ground must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + ½ the gravity warrior's class level + the gravity warrior's Strength modifier) or fall prone, become stunned for 1 round, and take 1d10 + Strength modifier damage. If this save is made then the opponent only takes half damage, and does not become stunned or fall prone. This affects even constructs and creatures without Constitution modifiers. This punch is a full round action that, once taken, does not allow the gravity warrior to make another hammer attack for 3 rounds."
- I think a better wording would be:
- "At 3rd level, as a full round action, a gravity warrior may focus the forces of gravity that course through his body into his fist, making it immensely heavy. His fist gains so much weight that the only action he can take is to punch the ground beneath him, creating a shockwave that hits all enemies within 5 feet per 2 gravity warrior levels (maximum 100 feet). Those hit must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + ½ the gravity warrior's class level + the gravity warrior's Strength modifier) or fall prone, become stunned for 1 round, and take 1d10 + Strength modifier damage. On a successful save, the opponent takes only half damage, and does not become stunned or fall prone. After using this ability, the gravity warrior may not make another hammer attack for 3 rounds."
- Similarly, I would change High-Gravity Zone (both to avoid eternal gravity zones and for clarity/ease of reading).
- "At 2nd level, a gravity warrior gains the ability to focus his control over gravity and increase its effects within an area around him. Once per encounter, the gravity warrior may spend a move action and create four 5 foot squares of difficult terrain. All 5 foot squares must be contiguous and within 100 feet of the gravity warrior, and remain effective until dismissed as a free action. These squares do not hinder the gravity warrior. A gravity warrior cannot have more than one of these areas active at once.
- Finally, Gravity well could also be worded better:
- "At 6th level, a gravity warrior learns to manipulate the weight of objects at a distance. A gravity warrior gains the ability to focus on one target within 10 feet per level (maximum 100 feet) as a standard action. This target must pass a Fortitude save (DC 10 + ½ the gravity warrior's class level + the gravity warrior's Strength modifier) or immediately fall prone and become exhausted for 1 round per 2 gravity warrior levels. This ability can be used on airborne targets and unattended objects as well; if this effect is used on an airborne target, then it falls to the ground and as such takes appropriate falling damage. Falling damage caused by this class feature cannot be negated in any way, shape, or form. If this class feature is used on an unattended object, then that objects weight grows nearly infinite for one round, and cannot be lifted by any force. Once used, this effect cannot be used for 4 rounds.
- --R2d2go (talk) 10:42, 25 June 2014 (MDT)
- Since it seems most of these changes were accepted, I just went ahead and did a closer reading of the whole article and made changes as I went, adding punctuation, clarifying various portions of syntax, deleting redundant statements, etc - hopefully the changes are all appropriate. Here's a few things that were partially/potentially mechanic:
- The current wording of Gravity Well (with the sentence about Constructs and creatures without Constitution scores) seems ambiguous - originally, I interpreted it to mean that these special creatures are effected as normal creatures. However, if it instead means that they are treated as objects, then the effect is no longer clear. Does it completely immobilize the construct or similar creature, rendering it helpless? Does it simply prevent movement and/or action, effectively stunning it? Is it simply rooted to the spot, but is still able to make attacks? I think it would be most clear simply to remove the sentence, but since it isn't a simple grammar, clarity, or brevity edit, I left it alone (and, since it appears on most abilities, left it there for the rest as well). I still believe it'd be best left unsaid though, since there's nothing that implies that a construct or similar creature wouldn't be affected.
- Earth Hammer mentions knocking an opponent prone in the description of a successful save, but not for an unsuccessful one - I added "fall prone" to the list of effects.
- Greater Leaden Weight says it doesn't stack with similar effects, but I felt that was either too ambiguous and unnecessary (there aren't really any other effects that use gravity to provide a bonus to weapon damage outside of the class), so I changed it to simply not stacking with Collision.
- The NPC does not have tactics, as mentioned, so I added some. I also removed "Powerful Charge" from attack options, since it doesn't mention any sort of damage (as it should), and isn't part of any feats or abilities the NPC should have, as well as fixing a couple syntax errors. I also got rid of Improved Critical as a feat - he doesn't need it due to having a (presumably +1) keen greataxe, and also has too many feats anyway.
- In any case, a more careful reading also brought up a few power questions about the abilities. Why do you gain nothing for the first three levels of Epic, then suddenly gain many more? Why is the epic capstone the equivalent of a 1st level spell and a couple Tomes (a small fraction of a 30th level character's wealth)? Why is an 18th level ability, Greater Leaden Weight, granting only +5 to damage, when it could easily increase size another category and (in my opinion) scale much better? Of course, these are all fairly minor concerns (two being epic, and one being a few points of damage in all but the most optimized of builds), but I figured I'd mention them while I'm here. --R2d2go (talk) 04:09, 8 July 2014 (MDT)
- For epic progression, Greater Impact at 22nd level, Devastator at 27th, and Event Horizon Hammer at 30th, which I think orders them in power and spaces them out better. I would also increase the defensive bonuses of Devastator since despite the name, the flavor and effects show a toughening of the Gravity Warrior's body (so perhaps change the name to Juggernaut, or Immovable, or something similar). Possible additions include 10 to 30 resistance or immunity to all elemental damage, Spell Resistance 10+level, +2 to 6 AC, continuous Delay Death and/or continuous Beastland Ferocity (or a similar effect), continuous Death Ward, anywhere from 5 to 30 DR/-, and DR/adamantine and/or DR/epic.
- If there was to be multiple tiers of Devastator, you could make Devastator I at 21st, II at 25th, and II at 29th, adding +2 to Constitution and Strength each time, and adding one or more of the above listed bonuses. For example, Devastator I could give Resistance 10 to all energy, SR 10+level, +2 AC and DR 5/epic, Devastator II could give Resistance 30 to all energy, +2 more AC, DR 10/epic, and continuous Death Ward, and then Devastator II give immunity to all energy, +2 more AC, DR 15/epic, and continuous Beastland Ferocity + Delay Death (effectively rendering the Gravity Warrior impossible to kill with damage, a much more worthy effect).--R2d2go (talk) 00:53, 17 July 2014 (MDT)
Consider putting in some information concerning the effects of the various hammer abilities on the character itself. Does the gravity manipulation of the hammer abilities render the user's fist immune to damage? render him immune to the sudden change in terrain from some uses? What happens if he tries to use it while chained to a wall? Does his fist rip off or is there a DC to see if it breaks the chains? If used indoors does it plumet the user thru the floor, possibly causeing falling damage? Heh, just had an image of using the hammer ability on the side of an ice and snow covered mountian and going for a tumble in the ensuing avalanche (just watched Snowpiercer). Anyways, just some food for thought, I do like the premise. :)--Elohim (talk) 18:57, 20 June 2014 (MDT)
- Some good ideas. How would you recommend that the ability be changed to reflect this? How it now stands it is considered a "weighting of the air" and would not do anything unless he attacks the floor/mountainside, etc. --Green Dragon (talk) 08:58, 5 July 2014 (MDT)
- As far as affecting oneself with the shockwave I would suggest a Fort save; success indicates no effect while failure causes a dazed effect for 1 round, a critical failure affecting the user with the full effets of an opponent's failed save. Affect on terrain would be up to the DM.... determined by unstable caverns, avalanche/rockslide risk etc.; I would apply a DC penalty, increasing with the ste various hammer abilities, and roll against the conditions to determine if an event was set in motion. As far as punching thru the floor: i wouldn't make it an issue with ground hammer unless the footing was very unsteady/weak, earth hammer I would suggest a DC roll as above against the sturdiness of the floor (hardness with modifiers for support and bracing) although I haven't given any thought to the DC strength of the earth hammer ability. Tectonic hammer on the other hand I would always assume to destroy the flloring unless it was of exceptional strength/thickness. Forgive me, but I'm not seeing the reference to "wieghting of the air", I'm reading the ground hammer ability and it states that it is litterally making his fist heavy. As far as manacles or other binding go, I would suggest that the abilities fortify the users fist and arm to make it momentarily immune to damage from its own weight and the impact with the ground. Atleast impacts with anything under the hardness of adamantine. breaking the manacles/bindings would be a sunder based check I would imagine, doing damage against the hardness and hit points of the binding. I would put it to the author and others more in tune with the rules to decide the strength/attack DC value of each form of the hammer abilities for these effects. --Elohim (talk) 12:18, 5 July 2014 (MDT)
- That would be good. Perhaps also add into the hammer abilities that they are automatically shielded from the direct effects of using their hammers. Perhaps, instead, add an ability at 3rd that creats a momentary shield to do that protection. The blurb in the campaign section should specify that terrain effects would be indirect results from the hammer abilities to head off any ambiguousness.
Featured Article Congratulations
- I agree. This page has been down the tube enough, and finally now that its mechanics work and it addresses build-optimization problems– it is much better. --Green Dragon (talk) 04:34, 10 June 2014 (MDT)
Balance - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because this class is fairly well balanced - nothing stands out as gamebreaking, but has a good number of useful abilities. --R2d2go (talk) 10:41, 25 June 2014 (MDT)
Wording - 2/5 I give this class a 2 out of 5 because as of rating, the wording makes the abilities very difficult to understand (potential edits listed in discussion). --R2d2go (talk) 10:41, 25 June 2014 (MDT)
Balance - 4/5 I give this class a X out of 5 because <hammers are not the good, may be if they had separate cooldowns, or all had 3 rounds CD.otherwise pretty nice class for a melee.> --Jokeboy (talk) 06:59, 15 July 2014 (MDT)