Talk:Barbarian, Tome (3.5e Class)
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 Additional Namespace Tag?
I don't see a Barbarian (DnD Class) page, so why not put this there instead? I haven't been putting those sorts of tags on any of the other classes. Also, don't forget the in-page links for the class features. Surgo 23:05, 12 November 2008 (MST)
- I think that classes like this are better of being like this: "Barbarian, Races of War (DnD Class)" PS: Still the ID but no bad looking double brackets... --Sabre070 23:33, 12 November 2008 (MST)
- I'm trying to figure out the in-page links...And, yeah, makes sense. I was hoping that with 3 or 4 variants of classes running around, putting 'Races of War' on this would help clarify it. And you're quite right, the commas are better.Genowhirl 23:37, 12 November 2008 (MST)
Power - 1/5 I give this class a 1 out of 5 because it is a very good idea, however, you completely disregarged any rules on class creation. I personally would make someone take an ECL adjustment to be this class. You gave the Barbarian more powerful abilites and removed his restrictions. You might want to consider looking up the class construction point system, and using that to build the class. --220.127.116.11 02:18, 27 December 2008 (MST)
Wording - 3/5 I give this class a 3 out of 5 because The wording was fine, just one typo with the Base Attack Bonus. You forgot to reduce the third and fouth attacks. --18.104.22.168 02:18, 27 December 2008 (MST)
Flavor - 4/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 because you did rather well at taking the standard barbarian and giving him a unique flare. --22.214.171.124 02:18, 27 December 2008 (MST)
- Try playing it. This was created on variant rules designed to even things up a little, on the objective evidence that the current rules are uneven. And, in fact, it follows some specific rules--the main one being that if you're level 10, you should be able to win, by some means, against about half the challenges of CR 10, out of a variety of scenarios (small groups, big bruisers, magic-users, big groups, traps, etc.) And the same applies to all other levels, from 1 to 20. Barbarians are classically encouraged to run screaming bloody murder and hit stuff very hard--but when they try it against monsters past level 7 or so, they're the ones who get murderized, unless the Barbarian becomes a one-trick pony hyperfocused in some combat maneuver or another. Therefore, some adjustment needs to be made so they can Rage, stab the enemy in the face, and actually survive. Even the BAB is thought out--on the basis that taking a -10 and -15 penalty to attacks is just a pile of stupid, considering you'll probably only be able to hit on a natural 20. Check out Races of War (3.5e Sourcebook) for the rationale and further details. -- Genowhirl 02:32, 27 December 2008 (MST)
- Follow-up: I asked around about the CC point system. The answers I got were not that encouraging. As near as I can make out, the point values are arbitrarily assigned according to the value they should have in the WotC designer's minds, without reference to the what the rules they wrote actually meant, especially in regards re charging and trying to stab in the face. In other words, this point system is a big pile of randomness and therefore of only accidental use. The only way it could be relevant is if monsters likewise are constructed from a similar point system, scaling by CR. Since that isn't the case, I reject it utterly. -- Genowhirl 18:30, 27 December 2008 (MST)
- Third and fourth Attacks do not reduce Base Attack Bonus. This is meant to take into account gameplay past level 10, where WoTC didn't properly playtest their rules. It's not so much a typo as a re-write of how BaB works. Genowhirl mentions this, but I didn't realize until reading his entries in more detail.
- And the real kicker is, I didn't even write this class. This was written by the infamous Frank Trollman and Keith. I just think it's good enough, it deserves to be on the wiki. -- Genowhirl 09:56, 29 December 2008 (MST)
 O Mighty Moderators and Administrators
Wilt thou find in thy heart to lock this page to the current version, which I just reverted it to? Someone did some drastic changes, and seeing as how this class came from an already-complete document and is not actually a work in progress, I'm trying to keep it matching the original document. -- Genowhirl 09:19, 10 January 2009 (MST)
Power - 1/5 I give this class a 1 out of 5 because it's utterly broken. I've read some of the Races of War pages and have seen the author's criticisms of a variety of 3.5e systems, but Rage Dice, Watched by the Totems, Primal Assault, Fast Healing, and especially One with the Beast, combine to make this class incredibly powerful, more powerful I'm certain than other characters of the same class level and probably more than strong enough to go a lot better than 50/50 with CR 19 monsters. --Jota 09:43, 10 January 2009 (MST)
- Stricken following the acquisition of further knowledge. -- Jota 20:24, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
- The RoW Barbarian has one trick--making a frontal assault. This is a very poor thing to do, tactically and mechanically. Another F&K design point is, "if you're doing something inherently substandard, you'd better be damn good at it". So they made the Barbarian very, very good at the thing people seem to expect Barbarians to do--make full attacks. Anyway, all but one of the SRD CR 19 monsters are dragons, and, as far as I can tell, all of them have HP at least in the mid-300's, which means some substantial form of bonus damage is in order to make sure the enemies actually notice that you're hitting them. They also seem to have good Fort saves and outrageous Con scores, so they've got a good chance of passing the fort save versus stunning from Great Blows. They're also big and strong, so they could hypothetically grapple the Barbarian to death. Further on the monster's side, all but the behemoth Girallon can fly, so the Barbarian either needs some means of flight or a good bow--and he doesn't get Rage Dice when he's using a bow. And to cap it all off, Level 19 is "Deputy Mayor of Crazytown". The game doesn't even make sense at this point, because there's effects like Gate which are found on monsters a few CRs lower. If you want an idea of a class's balance for levels people can expect to actually see, try playing the same-game test at levels 5, 7, 10, 13, and 15. -- Genowhirl 10:12, 10 January 2009 (MST)
- What about a returning weapon? I'd have to assume a nigh epic character will know his weakness and takes steps to minimize them (even a Barbarian). -- Jota 13:29, 10 January 2009 (MST)
- I just noticed the claim that it's more powerful than other characters of the same level. How shall I put this...? The RoW Fighter gets enough tactical tricks that he can shut down a simple, straight-forward attack. The RoW Samurai wins one-on-one combat if he chooses to go nova. Full spellcasters have so many possible tricks and ways to gyp people and monsters, it's not funny (See Spells That Fvcking Kill People (DnD Other)). The Rogue is, well, the Rogue. This variant of the Barbarian, though, is simple and easy to play. If you notice, the Rage Dice only works with standard and full attacks, and maybe AoO's granted by BAB. So you can't Whirlwind, and I'm told you can't double your damage with TWF. The Barbarian, rather than neutralizing his enemies with an endless series of tactical conditions, or flat-out splitting them in half, or throwing down a couple of spells which can completely remove an group of enemies from combat, goes right up to one enemy and hits it very hard a few times. I'm sure one can see the problems with this approach. All of the abilities in here are designed to help cope with those problems, and give you a melee fighter who's easy to play and has a decent chance of living through the day. -- Genowhirl 12:43, 10 January 2009 (MST)
- I just think immunity to magic (since that really is what is it) is really too strong. He'll own even a fighter in close range combat and he'll close quick enough that it would be difficult to keep him at a distance. I'll double check the other Races of War classes before I say anymore, but I'll stand by what I said for now. -- Jota 13:29, 10 January 2009 (MST)
- *Immunity to magic spells that have spell resistance. --TK-Squared 07:39, 7 May 2009 (MDT)
- And are we talking about the RoW fighter, or the WoTC Fighter?
Power - 4/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 because, at first glance, this class appears RIDICULOUSLY overpowered, even by Frank & K standards. Though, after giving the class a good once over, most of the things that I had thought would put it far over the top had massive restrictions on them (such as the fast healing), and so that got it increased in my mind. Though, looking at the class as it is, the way the abilities fit together just doesn't rest well in my mind, and so, I have given this class the rating it has. → Rith (talk) 22:43, 6 May 2009 (MDT)
Wording - 4/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 because while all of the class features are easily understood and comprehensive, the strange BAB progression is never explained (I personally know it's from races of war, but others wouldn't, and so would look at it and say, "whuh?"). → Rith (talk) 22:43, 6 May 2009 (MDT)
- Basically it is because with the third and fourth attack, hitting anything is nigh impossible. And besides, why do you even get those attacks if you just suck at them? The BAB reworks is designed to make full attacks actually hit stuff. --T G Geko 14:05, 5 June 2009 (MDT)
- I sorta like One With The Beast, just for the name and implications of it. I aspire to playing a Tome Barbarian to level 19... --Genowhirl 23:31, 6 May 2009 (MDT)
- Most of this class I like, but Fast Healing still seems a bit much for me. The notion that you can go right back up to full health in a few rounds or less? Personally, I'd cap how much fast healing would heal at about 50 to 75% of full health, or even better have a "lasting damage" mechanic similar to the one they use in Ninja Gaiden II (XBox 360). That said, I'm sure Frank and K have their reasons. -- Mythos 11:42, 20 June 2009 (MDT)
- The reasons are basically twofold. First, they assume out of combat healing is essentially limitless and free. With wands of cure light wounds, being able to rest whenever you want, etc, out of combat healing just doesn't matter. In combat, this provides a good reason not to rage all the time. Dragon Child 13:59, 20 June 2009 (MDT)
- All well and good, but Fast Healing 20 is a bit hard to chew on. Healing 20 HP a round out of combat may not be invincibility, but it comes close. At least without the "lasting damage" mechanic, where half the damage from critical hits can at least creep up on you over time. -- Mythos 19:54, 21 June 2009 (MDT)
- That's at level 20. At level 20, your characters are GODS. At level 20, the wizard and cleric are stronger than superman and Moses combined. And your concern is that the barbarian can... swim through lava a bit better, but still not that well? Recover from his wounds? While his party members are conjuring biblical plagues, forcing archdemons to bend to their will, and so on? Past level 3 or so, out of combat healing is pretty much free and infinite, you'll go into each encounter with full HP. You die from a burst of damage or a save or die effect in one combat, not from being worn down HP wise. Dragon Child 20:10, 21 June 2009 (MDT)
- (Reverting to indentation). Also, the fast healing is basically there to keep the Barbarian alive because his shtick is doing a very unoptimal thing--running up and full-attacking, again and again. Often against monsters bigger and stronger than he is. He'll take a lot of hits, but the Fast Healing sees to it that he's not draining the party's resources too much. Even Wands of CLW can take a chunk out of your money if you keep buying them--and they take a lot of time for a cleric. One of F&K's design principles is that if a class's thing is really subpar compared to other options, it needs some help. You might not agree with that, but that's the reason why the Assassin's Death Attack does better damage than Fireball and why the Barbarian's abilities look so impressive. The Assassin is doing Weapon + (Level + 2)d6 damage to one target, every other round (dice and circumstances willing) because there are effects which can do (Level)d6 to multiple targets, and force the targets to succeed on a dice roll or take damage. Likewise, the Barbarian gets some very impressive physical abilities BECAUSE he's trying to hit something that's both bigger and stronger and bound to have an opinion about it. If a Barbarian's not taking hits, he's not doing it right. And some of those hits are from creatures with outrageous sizes and strength scores, and would make the cleric eat through a lot of wands or spells in a hurry. So the Barbarian can recover from them on his own if he isn't actually killed. That said, if you want to use the class, feel free to use it with whatever caveats you want. --Genowhirl 21:48, 21 June 2009 (MDT)
Fair enough. -- Mythos 15:21, 24 June 2009 (MDT)
By level 5 this class is only ever making FORT saves (while raging). Dodge a fireball? Fort save. Resist a charm? Fort save. Does this not seem a little strong to anyone else? Barbarians are almost constantly raging, so isn't this pretty much giving them 2 epic feats by level 5 (Fort equivalents of Dex will and Dex fort)? With the exceptions of traps and surprises, would he ever make any other sort of save? I'm sure there is some detail I'm missing here, can someone tell me what I've overlooked? Or am I just overestimating the power of those abilities?--Badger 15:05, 7 August 2009 (MDT)
- They aren't raging in the first round of combat. Surgo 16:10, 7 August 2009 (MDT)
- Until level 19. -- Jota 18:38, 7 August 2009 (MDT)
- Well, yeah, there is that. But that's level 19. Surgo 18:46, 7 August 2009 (MDT)
- I know. I'm just saying. -- Jota 18:59, 7 August 2009 (MDT)
Power - 6/5 I give this class a 6 out of 5 because I personnaly think it's a bit overpowered... The rage dice are something you can't just put without removing anything... The fast healing is good. And for the higher level powers, it's a bit normal they're pretty strong. --126.96.36.199 20:02, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
- The Barbarian basically gets everything it needs in-class. It's meant as something simple for a newbie to play--something that doesn't require a lot of system mastery to keep up with, and doesn't have any hidden traps which can kill your character. The Barbarian, optimization means, "Increase your Con score and Fort saves" and "get some extra AC". Everything it has, it has for a reason. Even the Fast Healing is designed so a Barbarian won't die from doing what they do (full-attacking monsters as close as they are, and therefore being subject to some serious pain) while NOT sucking the party's healer dry. --Genowhirl 21:57, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
Power - 2/5 I give this class a 2 out of 5 because There are far too many abilities granted a far too early a stage in the game for this to be a balanced character class. Just looking at what the character receives while raging at level 1 is ridiculous. --Ewjones 18:27, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
- I honestly have to disagree on just about all those points. Firstly, if you actually read the Races of War book that this comes from you would know that this barbarian is intended to have as much contribution to a party as a well-played wizard (which is how people are supposed to play wizards instead of just chucking fireballs and lightning bolts). Thus, it is obviously going to look overpowered compared to the SRD Barbarian which, and I don't think I'm putting this too bluntly, sucks major donkey balls. At the very least, it does when compared to the wizard in the same party.
- Secondly, the differences in rage at 1st level between the SRD Barbarian and this barbarian are not actually all that big, except perhaps for the extended duration and removal of the post-rage fatigue (which I love because I think those things make the SRD Barbarian suck). This gives a +2 bonus to attack and damage, which at 1st level is equal to the +4 bonus to Strength given by the SRD barbarian and might even be inferior since the SRD version can use a two-handed weapon to get the damage bonus from the +4 Strength to be at least +3 at level 1. The +2 to all saves is a little better than the +4 bonus to Will from the SRD Barbarian, but still falls into basically the same category. Same with the penalty to Armor Class. The DR might look powerful, but since it only applies when raging it isn't that much more powerful than the temporary hit points provided by the Constitution bonus from the SRD Barbarian (that is, assuming your Con is reasonable in the first place). After that, Combat Healing doesn't apply when raging, so you're basically in the same boat as the SRD Barbarian except you aren't a once-a-day liability.
- I'm sure that someone else made a similar argument earlier in this talk page, but I was too lazy to look. In conclusion, it's really not that bad. God forbid that someone made a barbarian that could actually do stuff. - TG Cid 13:51, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
Wording - 4/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 because Too much of the descriptive text is written in the second person, addressing the reader. --Ewjones 18:27, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
- I more or less agree, I suppose. I don't know if it's just me, but the class feature tables no longer have any frame and I think it looks fugly as hell. It's not exclusive to this page, though, so I wouldn't condemn it for that reason. F&K never did bother with fluff text, either, so it's missing some things right off the bat. - TG Cid 13:51, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
Flavor - 3/5 I give this class a 3 out of 5 because This class seems to simply be an overpowered version of the barbarian in the 3.5 player's handbook. --Ewjones 18:27, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
- See above argument(s). - TG Cid 13:51, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
- I've been a little out of it lately (broke a finger. Boy, howdy, that'll throw your typing off), but I have to say that the Flavor rating here should be nulled. It's not based on any standard of flavor I've seen. Sure, it's Barbarian replacement. But it also goes a lot farther than anything in the PHB to be flavorful. Seriously, look at the ability names. 'Watched by Totems' and 'One with the Beast'. 'Primal Assault' and 'Savagery'. Those are a lot better than "Trap Sense +2" or "Favored Enemy" or "Huge Wild Shape" --Genowhirl 04:37, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
- Whoops, forgot to sign the above. But, seriously, if this takes a hit for flavor, every class in the SRD should be scoring straight 1's or 0's for flavor. --Genowhirl 04:37, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
In the framework of Frank Ks Version of D&D most of it seems to be OK.
But I would recomment two modifications
1)I would recomment to let the anti magic field just be an anti magic field... A none-magic user has advantage enought if he fights in it. And lets remember it is at will.. Blocking every magic on me I dislike not blocking magic I like unlimited is a little bit too much
2) I would let the healing process require full round actions. Real fast healing after level 10. Then you still recover fast. But you do need to make a break for some time. (This is more for flavor than for game mechanics)
If you think that this class is overpowered.. Please consider two things
1) This class is not living in the same world than the SDR classes so comparing them is useless. Because they will never meet...
2)In melee combat this is very strong. But there are many ways to keep it from even hurting you at all. So for all tactical advanced enemies it still needs help And out of combat the use of this class is even more restricted
Power - 1/5 I give this class a 1 out of 5 because it's realy overpowered. Rage. Ok. It's barbarrian, and it's his main ability. Combat movement? Yep, I know, that che classick Barbarian gains +10ft speed, but not +50! With high atack rating and this speed he was a IMBA killing machine. Watched by Totems - skiil, that ignores the barbarian weackness. Low will - is only thing, what spellcasters may hope. Great Life - WHAT??? Critical immune? Stuning? Death Effects??? How somebody can kill him?
Sry for my bad english ^_^
--188.8.131.52 02:47, 21 March 2011 (MDT)
- Simple, someone kills him by dealing more damage than he has hit points. That's not particularly difficult for any character that actually deserves to play in the same game as this class (like a wizard, for example, since that's what it's meant to match). I think you're freaking about over nothing, since the antimagic field is usually considered the most potentially abusive part of this class. You didn't even mention that part. Not to mention the fact having a better Will save prevents from being easily wrecked by those spellcasters (calm emotions is just one spell that does that all too easily). Honestly, the parts you consider overpowered are really not a big deal. - TG Cid 11:30, 21 March 2011 (MDT)
Power - 4/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 because because of the devastating power I've seen unleashed in two campaigns by player using this class with a decent stat set. It is a radical improvement over the srd Barbarian. The healing coupled with the rage dice damage manages to ensure an overwhelming amount of firepower if interpreted in its raw state. --Lothahndor 05:25, 3 June 2011 (MDT)
Wording - 4/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 because it conveys the feeling of playing a barbarian such as Conan, or for that matter Cohen from Discworld quite nicely. --Lothahndor 05:25, 3 June 2011 (MDT)
Flavor - 4.5/5 I give this class a 4.5 out of 5 because it conveys the feeling of playing a barbarian such as Conan, or for that matter Cohen from Discworld quite nicely. The class handles much better than most basic fighter builds and is an excellent class for player new to the game. It is if min maxed very powerful but all within the nature of what it means to be a fantasy barbarian. --Lothahndor 05:25, 3 June 2011 (MDT)
 Modify needed
Alright I know this will start another huge but its tome arguement but it really needs to be said that one ability in particular needs to be toned down (a second arguably but the first is of primary concern) and that is the disjunction effect. Disjunction is a highly ridiculous ability to begin with and allowing someone to use it every day all day along with the anti magic field makes it essentially a neutralize any magic user of choice. I am for the idea of balancing this so it is effective against non fighters but this pretty much negates anyone that isn't a fighter, and locks out the usefulness of any other class (except for maybe a tome fighter since he could just keep the character locked the entire time.) Tivanir (talk) 08:57, 14 August 2012 (MDT)