Talk:Incubus/Succubus (5e Race)
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Way to make the other Succu/Incubus page look better. As the page is now, people might as well become a Tiefling, because the main gimmick of these lust demons IS their ability TO Shapeshift and blend in. Limiting that feature to a Lv. 5 TIMED feature might as well paint targets on the player's backs; meanwhile the OTHER Succu/Incubus Variant gets away with this. A similar detail could be said about Charm. Heck I've seen adventures fail BEFORE the 3rd Level with a fair DM at the helm. Before you scream "Munchkin," let me say there IS a way to balance something without eliminating the defining core. Considering I've seen this page go all over the place, and disagreeing with Geodude's "Balancing" recently, I'm going to revert the page and try to clear and clean things up with the folowing:
- The Shapechanging ability here does have its limit. from Lv. 1-9, it can only be used once, 10-19 twice, and 20 is three times, while the other variant doesn't define the limit. Certainly better than earlier edits, which gave it free reign. If we stick to the current edit, that means from Lv. 1-4, they have wings. Most DMs don't appreciate this from Lv. 1.
- The Charm ability itself is written from the Monster Manual. Seeing that most of the features are taken from the MM as it were, my guess is that this is what the original creator wanted anyways. I am returning to the Half-Charisma limit, as on average a Player's going to have 1-2 usages anyways if they allocate their stats right, and since the People Charmed via Proficiency Modifier (By Lv. 20, 6 People) is going to outweigh the Use Limit (a Charisma score 20 would give 3 uses, outside of DM boons) anyways. And unless someone throws a 0 or a negative in there, it WILL be limited to once per long rest.
- Umbra Lux has a decent idea for the Vs. Charm idea. Flat immunity might be stretching it, so I'm changing it to Advantage. It keeps the possibility of failure open at least.
- Why was the "Fiend" part removed? That was kind of neccessary, as these are...well DEMONS, so removing the Fiends detail? I'm at a loss.
- Limiting the language to an "Or" choice, despite being a DEMON? Some can get a pass for being Half-breeds, but nothing on the page indicates Half-Bred Sucu/Incubus. "But having access to both languages?" Well, more Homebrew races get access to at least 3. Some by means of "Homebrew" languages, but the rest straight from the SRD. Heck the Dullahan got free reign of EVERY language. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 184.108.40.206 (talk • contribs). Please sign your posts.
The changes I made were intended to bring the race's power level in line with the official races. Let me address your concerns one by one:
- Level 1 adventurers are basically peasants who put down the plow and picked up a sword or learned to cast a spell. It's not until around 5th level that they become seasoned warriors. It's entirely feasible that a succubus only learns how to alter her appearance once she becomes experienced or powerful enough.
- Since the innate spells seem to be a sore spot for you due to them not being useable often enough, maybe we could make them recharge on a short or long rest instead? The scaling on the charm ability does seem rather odd; if we do decide to keep that, I recommend giving 2 uses at level 5, 3 uses at level 11, and 4 uses at level 17.
- Succubi in the Monster Manual do not have any sort of resistance to the charmed condition, so that's why I removed that bit.
- I agree that it makes sense for succubus PCs to have the Fiend type, but having a creature type other than humanoid gives a huge boon to the character: they just flat out aren't affected by some common lower-level spells, such as Charm Person and Hold Person. Hold Monster is a decently-higher-level spell, and Charm Monster isn't even a thing in this edition. Sense should be subservient to game balance.
- Most official races get two languages; the only exceptions I can think of are the high elf, half-elf, and deep gnome. For that reason I decided to limit the race to two languages. The reason other homebrew races "get away with [things]" is because often their creators just don't care. Thank you for bringing these races to my attention; I will have a look at them.
- It becomes a messy thing. Pop Culture Succu/Incubi aren't really "born" in the traditional sense. Shapechanging is a natural part of their functions as much as eating and breathing. Plus, most adventurers are going to be be around the Adult ages, due to having their views of life and the world and all that, which means that they would have time to develop some of their (possible) inherent abilities, like how Elves have their Weapon Training. If someone decides to go SUPER young, because they want to live a Berserk-esque background, a DM could rule some features are going to be disallowed due to their age. I agree to the Level part, but if at least having 20+ years of experience would indicate they have SOME control, just not as much as a 70+ year adventurer. Of course, if you go longer without having the express need to develop those skills, that 200 year-old Incubus would still have some trouble figuring out how to maintain proper control over their abilities. Kinda like Darwinism, if you get what I'm saying.
- Charm's gone all over the place, so I'm trying to strike middle ground here. Seems better to have a concrete number like that.
- This point ties 2 points into one. In my experience with 5E, types don't seem to give advantages to being that type, but it is important in case an effect has different functions when interacting with that type. Though the MM does state that when using shapechange, the Succ/Inc takes a Humanoid shape, which could be affected by some spells. Then again, it does boil down to As-Written vs. As-Intended arguments. Middle ground is that, despite being a demon, it does still have a humanoid shape. That way, some spells still affect the Player without clashing with the fact it's still a fiend. Maybe re-worded carefully than what I have written.
- For some cases, I see why limiting it to 2 languages would be help with balance. I've seen the Blood Angel changes, and that's understandable why it would be an "Or" choice: They are the mix of Angel and Tiefling. Some other races could be classified as a specific dialect of a specific language, like the Avariel knowing Elvish and Avarial; the Avariel are winged elves, so while spoken and written may sound and look different it does share similarities with the Elvish language. High Elves get the extra Language because of their, no pun intended, high views of themselves. They're superior, they're haughty, they're the alphas, hence why they get a +1 language. While background could be subjective, in a general sense, Succu/Incubi could know both Abyssal and Infernal because they regularly associate with demons and fiends far more powerful than themselves, but aren't quite top-tier themselves. At least, that's the general Hand-Wave explanation. Also, the Dulahan I mentioned did get hit with Balance Issues already, it seems, so I'll bite that bullet.
Just editing for the sig. I think I figured it out... 220.127.116.11 20:42, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
Not the OP but i'm not worried about the Fiend type; while you pick up immunity to spells like charm/hold/dominate person and calm emotions or crown of madness, you're suddenly targeted by detect/protection/dispel evil and good, hallow or magic circle. They did bring up the tiefling though, let's compare this to the variant in the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide. Even with the "winged" variant option, the Xcubus has better speed. The tiefling has worse darkvision, lower ability score increases AND doesn't have another feature to compare to Charm. It has fire resistance rather than charm advantage, but that's not too far apart from a balance perspective. Pretty much the only detractor on this is the Radiant vulnerability, which is particularly rare. You originally complained that "people might as well become a Tiefling" but as written why would anyone play a tiefling over this? --Vaegrim (talk) 01:24, 19 May 2017 (UTC)
- Thanks Vaegrim. Can I ask your opinion on my version of it? Should be my last edit on the main page. --Geodude671 (talk) 01:59, 19 May 2017 (UTC)
- Your version is much closer to the variant tiefling, enough so that I'd question the necessity of the race. It's still a little overloaded, since it doesn't have the downside of a vulnerability. I think Fiend type and Charm are an interesting "hook" for the race. Following that thread I'd cut away elements that don't support those themes. So +1/+1 ASI, Charm, Telepathic bond and darkvision are about the limit.--Vaegrim (talk) 08:02, 19 May 2017 (UTC)
Throwing my cents on this as an amateur DM (and since someone decided to finally make a page), my interpretation of "Humanoid" would also partially stem from physical appearance. Since the Xubus in its True Form resembles a Human, but with wings, tail, and maybe claws, spells that would affect the Humanoid beings would also affect the Xubus. Plus, being a nonstandard Human may impact some game elements. I'll admit maybe Geodude's edits might be a tad over-the-top, but they're made with good intentions. If the Fiend part needs to be removed, I'll stand by it, but slight Devil's advocate (no pun intended), it is a detail that could impact gameplay. Maybe as a variant rule or something?
Also, as for the speed, and score increases, seems another Anon keeps coming 'round to bump unfavorable numbers up. The +2 Charisma and +1 Dexterity, and the 30 ft. Fly Speed work better. Nightmares are dreams too... (talk) 02:29, 19 May 2017 (UTC)
- "Humanoid" is a creature type. In the MM, the Succubus' creature type is "fiend". --Geodude671 (talk) 04:40, 19 May 2017 (UTC)
I get the general clash, but at the same time, playing as a Xubus (Dear god why didn't I think of that?! Saves me typing out Inc/Succubus!) could cause some possible detail clashes. I'd venture for a possible variant rule, but seems the consensus is leaning towards removing Fiend type. If anything, I'll say that the Devil's in the details as well. Since the Xubus transforms into a Humanoid shape, could it then be affected by spells/abilities that affect a Humanoid target? At least while Transformed, it should keep the Advantage vs. Charmed. Essentially,
- True Form: Gains Wings, and is treated as Fiend; Related strengths and weaknesses apply.
- Transformed Form: Loses Wings, and is treated as Humanoid; becomes vulnerable to more spells, but has Advantage vs. Charmed while transformed (at least).
But more people seem to be in favor of axing Fiend. Also, I don't get why someone keeps upping the Dexterity boost to +2 and Flying to 60 Ft. Seems like every time someone fixes it, that Anon reverts it back. 18.104.22.168 09:06, 19 May 2017 (UTC)
- I don't want the xcubus to get any sort of resistance to charm. The MM version of it doesn't have any resistance to charm, the 3.5 version of it doesn't have any resistance to charm. This just seems like it's coming out of left field.
- As for the anon that keeps reverting, someone could probably report that to the admins. --Geodude671 (talk) 18:19, 19 May 2017 (UTC)
- Yeah, I don't think there's a good justification for advantage against charm. Especially when the trait budget is in question. --Vaegrim (talk) 19:00, 19 May 2017 (UTC)
|1||Dexterity score increases by 1|
|1||Charisma score increases by 1|
|0.5||Darkvision 60 ft.|
I rated radiant vulnerability at -0.5 even though the meter normally rates damage vulnerability at -1; this is because radiant damage is not often encountered.
I also assumed two short rests per day for the purposes of the Charm trait from 5th level onwards. ConcealedLight and I agreed in Discord that Small Wings is probably worth 0.5 per 30 ft speed since you can remain in the air only for a couple turns. — Geodude671 (talk | contribs | email) . . 15:51, 3 February 2018 (MST)
- The frequency of radiant damage is campaign-dependent and should not be considered a factor in determining the strength of vulnerability value.--GamerAim (talk) 13:57, 31 May 2018 (MDT)