Talk:Death Knight (4e Class)

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The average damage of most heroic melee strikers is around 21.5, such as for the Rogue or Ranger. Unlike this class, the Rogue targets reflex, and the ranger attacks twice. So, we get...

Rogue= 1D4 (2.5) + Dexterity (5) + Strength or Charisma (3) + 2D8 (9) + Weapon focus (1) + Enhancement (1) = 21.5 damage. It can be 23.5 with a rapier, or even up to 25.5 with a mace.

Ranger= 2[W] (13) + Hunter's Quarry (4.5) + Enhancement Bonus (2) + Weapon focus (2) = 21.5 damage. This can be 23.5 with two-weapon fighting, and because of the two attacks they add double the damage.

All of this assumes various damage based feats, which is achievable by level 6 (such as lethal hunter or weapon focus etc.)

The Death Knight's damage is...

1[W] (6.5) + Strength (5) + Minion (4.5) + Enhancement bonus (1) + Weapon focus (1) = 18 damage.

So, quite a bit less. Unless, they use a two-handed weapon and a more powerful minion (although they lose utility).

1[W] (8) + Strength (5) + Constitution (3) + Minion (5.5) + Enhancement bonus (1) + Weapon focus (1) = 23.5 damage.

So, quite a bit more. However, they lose the utility associated with it and their defenses for using a two-handed weapon. This assumes a mordenkrad or gouge, the most powerful static damage weapons. Bear in mind, both the ranger and rogue have a higher +hit, and in general with various paragon paths and other abilities, they can end up doing more damage. With nimble blade, a rogue can gain yet another +1 to hit,and with light blade expertise gains an additional +1 to damage.

As for AC, the rogue only starts with 17 and the ranger 18, but both can get two-weapon defense for 18 and 19, and both can get weapons such as the parrying dagger or magic items which provide additional bonuses to their AC. On top of this, both could get studded chainmail (or the rogue hide) which later allows for chainmail specialization for +1 extra to defenses. So, while the defenses are initially higher, they average out rather quickly if the routes are chosen. The damage is still less than a barbarian who charges, who can do 26 damage on average with a +1 to hit for the charge, using horned helm and a vanguard weapon which proves a D6 and D8 worth of damage, respectively. It's around the same damage as other strikers or less, but with some extra utility if you choose to forgoe the damage. This is similar to the monk or warlock.

Ideas for stuff[edit]

Rapture, Armageddon, Aldar Rof, Gylfaginning, røkr ragnarøkkr

Gungnir, Einherjar, Surtr, Jörmungandr, Fenrir

Other Points[edit]

So, I decided I'd go ahead and bring up other points, reasonings for my balance or precedents established by other classes.

Minion limit[edit]

It occurred to me that dailies that allow you to summon special minion's could just be spammed limitlessly. So, I made a minion limit so you couldn't just summon as many as you wanted and would have to deliberate more thoroughly. However, I didn't want the powers to be completely useless so, you can summon them temporarily but not, for the entire encounter if you have exceeded your minion limit. Secondly, minion's can die. If they do, you can respawn them, but this cuts in to your daily minion summoning limit. That means if you switch minions or they die, then you've just waisted a daily encounter-minion summoning. Otherwise, daily minion summons are established by the Invoker and Sentinel classes.

Minion Strength and hitting multiple targets[edit]

Regular minion's do 1d8, 2D4, or 1D10 damage. This does 4.5, 5, and 5.5 damage. This is roughly equal to the Hunter's Quarry or Warlock's curse, Barbarian 1d6 etc. however, they lack other features that these classes possess, such as prime shot, which increases the +hit, or the Warlock which can turn their quarry in to fire damage (which gains another bonus to damage if you also have, a +fire damage feat and so on). When you average out the damage, it tends to be the same or less.

As for targeting multiple creatures, the ranger does it, and even say the Sorcerer with area of effect abilities. So, if a ranger, one of the most powerful strikers in the game can target two opponents with an at-will, I don't see why the Death Knight can't. And both of those are ranged, and that's assuming that you actually use your minion to attack a different target.

Heavy Armor[edit]

The Heavy armor may seem like a bit much, but since one of them is Charisma I wanted one of them to avoid having plate over the other (who, would have constitution). In addition, the heavy armor isn't that grand of a bonus. Clerics were later changed to have both heavy and light shields, and can even pick up scale along with a +2 shield bonuses to defenses, even with a two-handed weapon. So, that's 19 AC. You can actually multiclass Cleric and pick this ability up. So, that's not something built in to this character, where as Templar Clerics with Battle-Cleric's Lore, are. In order to use the at-will to do extra damage with your constitution modifier you need a two-handed weapon, which was a deliberate attempt to weaken their armor. So, how does it pan out compared to other characters?

The AC and reflex of a Rogue or Ranger at level 1 with Dexterity 20 would be 1 17 and 18, respectively. Neither class has difficulty picking up the two-weapon defense feat, which is now 18 and 19. A rogue can get a parrying dagger in their offhand for 19 AC, and then get a Rhythm Blade Weapon to get an additional +1 to AC and reflex. That equates to 20 AC and 19 Reflex, which is very achievable by level 6. On top of this, the Rogue could go hide for an additional +1, go and get the studded chainmail feat and get an additional +1 to AC with the Chainmail specialization feat, and then get an additional +1 with the undershirt that provides a +1 bonus to AC and reflex. By level 8, a rogue could have the equivalent of 22 AC (at level 1), compared to a maximum of 20 AC for the Death Knight and something like 12-13 reflex. The Death knight, being a heavy armor wearer, has less reflex, less initiative, 1 less speed, and a penalty to skills. So not only is it the same or less defenses, but it's less maneuverability and benefits. This is of course ignoring the scaling bonus of having an attribute for a defense (I.E. an additional +1 by level 8), which heavy armor users lack. On top of this, the Death Knight does less damage against higher defenses, so they tend to be slightly weaker to a rogue, and about equal to a ranger. Rangers later on however will do far more damage and have slightly higher defenses. By level 11, a Rogue or a Ranger could be way better off than a Death Knight, a Death Knight just has it fundamentally. And regardless, they would need to wear a shield to gain this bonus, or else it's the same. The Executioner is the same way, with two-weapon defense built in. The scout can get a rhythm blade and all that and gets as +1 bonus to hit when using a light blade so, the damage is still higher, especially with the multiclass feat that allows for the spiked chain to be used as a double weapon.

And now for the rant[edit]

First of all, my general summary, defender level HP and defenses, Striker level damage or better, Controller level effects or better, Minions that damage sponge and upgrade TO RIDICULOUS damage levels.

Class in general[edit]

  • Base HP is too high for a striker 12, 13, or maybe 14 is appropriate
  • Defender level armor, your point for the other strikers is mut as there is nothing preventing the deathknight from doing the same thing, additionally the death knight doesn't have to spend feats for good AC and it is on par with the PALADIN which is one of the best defenders.
  • Free resists is a bit much esspecially for a 5 + half level on two damage type.
  • additionally note for you, the classes are made with expected use of the standard array, thus 18 would be highest with a more even spread not 20 with other very low attributes.


  • Deaths embrace: Damage is too high for an at-will regardless of surge use as it does not affect combat directly
  • Patron Mettle: 4e never uses "take lowest" or "take highest" it's always "Take second result", if you can find an example otherwise please inform.
  • The Plague: Can linger indefinitely as foes can trade it back and fourth, encounters with save ends are a no-no.
  • Rising Fury: does not dictate when the Gould de-animates and allows you to make an army of free ghouls (which i will inform of why it's a MASSIVE problem later)
  • Blight: Save-ends on at at-will is a NO, stacking to -4 is a 20% change to hit giving a massive advantage (it's 50% -> 30% or your 50% -> 70%), All defenses is far to broad and powerful should limit to one specific defense.
  • Unholy Covenant: much more controller than striker attack, bogs down game play with large number of dice rolls.
  • Death's touch: should be a melee or range not reach that can extend far beyond logical.
  • Enfeebling strike: Too many effects, has a save ends on an encounter, should be to defense or attack and not a choice, blinded and daze are too strong for 1st level on a striker.
  • Judgment of the Armageddon: should not have ongoing, with addition to effect, and 3[w] damage at 1st level, pick one and heavily reduce the others.
  • Tyr's Weapon: Should have one of the bonus to attacks or something else, that is far to powerful as it gives you a 15% chance to crit (rather than 5%) in addition to extra damage. Just far too much.
  • Inhuman Sprint: +4 is a bit high for defensive bonus but not super important.
  • Dual Strike: Save ends on an encounter, all defenses de-buff, stacking, additional pestilence effects, far to much and most of those alone are cause for concern.
  • Crippling Will: Immobilize is to powerful for a striker in heroic tier change to slow instead, maybe a small damage boost??
  • Minion strike: See minion section
  • Summon Infernal: See minion section
  • Knight's Persistence: should force take the second roll
  • Combat surge: should force take the second roll, but add something small
  • Action surge: this type of ability is for paragon paths
  • Diabolic Grasp: Should only target one foe, either -2 penalty or the pull, -2 needs to be "Until the end of your next turn"
  • Hellfire: just make it all one attack.
  • Fimbulvinter: domination is NEVER a PC effect, additionally two guaranteed turns for an effect in addition to save ends is to much.
  • Summon Doomguard: see minion section
  • Benediction: More like a leader or defender power than a striker power.
  • Summon Protodragon: See minion section
  • Minion Smite: See minion section
  • Avalanche of Genhenna: Pic -2 to ONE defense or the restrained.
  • Summon Patchwork Horror: See minion section
  • Necrosis: Generally utilities don't do damage
  • Hand of death: Should be only one defense
  • Deaths Radiance: need to specify size of burst, save ends on an encounter
  • Summon Abyssal: See minion section
  • Summon Vrykul: see minion section
  • Phantasmic Clash: Insubstantial halves most all damage and allows you to walk through solid objects, needs heavy limitations.
  • Unyielding Heriophant: Defender/ leader power, power should make you spend the healing surge.
  • Phantom's game: potential +40% to an attack roll you already made is to much.
  • Mantle of the Undead: Pestilence Pact adds to much.
  • Demons from the Abyss: See minion section
  • Annihilation: 7[W] damage is level 29 daily not 27 encounter.
  • Apocalypse: Way to much, 7 weapon damage, summon minion of choice (assuming this includes specials), wording for the effect is unclear and could mean pick for each one individually.
  • Summon Patchwork Guardian: See minion section


  • Giant HP tanks, allowing for huge damage absorption.
  • Defenses are useless at higher tiers of play
  • Basic damage increases by a MASSIVE margin as play increases
  • 3 minion damage attack are stupendously powerful
As an example If i summon a Doomguard and I'm at level 29, it deals 6d10 damage on its attacks. I then use minion smite. get to roll 18d10 + strength mod. Dice alone that can go up to 180 damage, with a 99 damage average. This insanely powerful. I can then use minion strike doing the same damage again! and since these are only encounters i can do this for three combats, Summon Doomguard, then demons from the abyss, then Apocalypse. Every single minion can do this as well (par the zombie) and the special minions are devastatingly powerful (Doomguard being the most potent) due to their increasing damage.
I like the minions as the striker mechanic but they need to be reigned in to more common place levels of damage, having a set minion damage and different summons having various effects would be much easier to balance but alternatively you can get better minions as you gain new powers just having to nerf the ones here by a HUGE amount.

Response to Aitharious[edit]

First I would like to say, I appreciate your input and criticisms. Secondly, I'd like to say that most of it seems to be your opinion with very little to back it up, mechanically. There are lots of precedents of things you've deemed to be too powerful such as, the minion being able to absorb damage, with other minion's in the game, used by warlocks, sentinels, and even the Ranger with their beast pet. This is a potential problem for any minion based character, not just this class. So, if you have a problem with that, then it's a problem with the game itself. Many more issues like this exist, which I'll go in to.

Response: Class in General[edit]

1. There are other strikers with heavy armor and shields, including the Slayer and Blackguard. Further, they have 6 hitpoints every level, where as the DeathKnight has just 5. To say that it's too high because it's close to a defender is a moot point given that many other classes do this, including the Monk and Avenger, and many other classes such as the Rogue or Ranger can get that close with just a handful of feats. Also, having 15 starting hitpoints really isn't too powerful, the avenger starts with 14 etc., the Barbarian scales 6 every time he levels, so yes, there are strikers that do this.

I'll have to take a look at the classes, especially the slayer, blackguard, and other 4e essentials classes, and for just a few feats isn't a fair point as that means your sacrificing those feats being spent elsewhere. For the Barbarian's high HP i know that's due to it being a very upfront fighter with limited defenses, it actually relies of taking damage as many of it's powers require you to be bloodied including it's rage which is it's primary damage bonus. --Aitharious (talk) 13:12, 9 June 2016 (MDT)
I appreciate the input, I really do, but it is done across other strikers. While plate may be a bit much I didn't want to make it a feat tax, and also only the constitution variant would be able to pick up plate, giving them a +2 bonus to AC over the Charisma variant. I don't want to nerf them out of the box. It's possible that I give it to only the Charisma variant as a free feat but, I feel like that would just make things over complicated. As it stands, heavy armor doesn't provide that tremendous of a bonus and, for the most part 18 AC is equal to a ranger with a two-handed weapon, and if you use a shield obviously your damage goes down. JohnSmith82 (talk) 08:46, 10 June 2016 (MDT)

2. Lots of classes and races have a free resist to them. The Tiefling. The Deva. So on and so forth. It's not really that powerful.

Lots of races have resists, generally to one damage type (Deva being an outlying race) But i don't recall any class that gives you free resists. especially to two damage types that are often found together. --Aitharious (talk) 13:12, 9 June 2016 (MDT)
Well, the resistances are overall a pretty minor effect and, the class is meant to be undead so, it's sort of adding a racial component to it to be undead. I could remove the resistances but I don't personally feel they're overpowered. I suppose in certain games it could be overpowered but, that's true of any resist ability. JohnSmith82 (talk) 08:46, 10 June 2016 (MDT)

3. Classes are not designed to be used with the standard array. You can use any array that you want. I'm not sure where you got this or why you think this needs to be designed in to a class. Regardless, a Death Knight would function fine with 18/18, or even 18/16, albeit be slightly less powerful.

You are correct that Classes are designed to use any type of attribute array. However, the balance is built around the standard array as 4e is a very math heavy version of D&D and has fine tuned damages and attack values in comparison to other editions of D&D. --Aitharious (talk) 13:12, 9 June 2016 (MDT)
Well, the recommendation is 20/16 for your primary and secondary stat, however the class works with 18/16. You just have one less +hit and damage. JohnSmith82 (talk) 08:46, 10 June 2016 (MDT)

Response: Minions[edit]

1. Any minion in the game could potentially allow for extra damage soaking. Any beast or animal pet. So, it's no more powerful than various warlock builds, druid builds, powers which allow for daily summoning and so on. Further, the ranger also gets a pet which could absorb damage. In fact, there is a theme in Heroes Feywild called "Fey Beast Tamer" which would allow any class in the game to get a pet which could absorb damage. Even the Shaman spirit pet could absorb some damage, if the enemy kept missing. So, it doesn't seem like it's overpowered. You're suggesting a problem with the core mechanic that the creators themselves have never expressed as being the case and there's plenty of precedents against this.

The issue isn't the fact that they can take damage it's how much damage they can take. Most summoned creatures are exclusively dailies and have half of the HP of their summoner. In addition the Summoner is normally a controller class which has the least HP and lowest defenses in the game.
Additionally the ranger's pet is one pet that is downed once with great difficulty with revival, where as these minions are both very strong and rather throw away as you can summon them repeatedly. (even if their is a limit 2 warhorses due the bear in terms of HP and are cheap in terms of revival effort), I will have to check the other examples to see how they work, but keep in mind that the Death Knight can also get a pet in accordance to that feat as well.--Aitharious (talk) 12:26, 9 June 2016 (MDT)
One thing to bear in mind is that they have to use the Death Knight's healing surges. So, if the minion's take damage, they consume his healing surges. This makes it pricey for them to absorb damage, as it cuts in to your healing surge economy. Being an extra damage sponge just means that it's them taking damage instead of you, which I guess is beneficial since you don't die but, essentially has the same problem. Perhaps you're right in that I should add an extra death penalty, maybe, that you lose 4 healing surges. In that way, if a minion dies you lose the healing surges or the equivalent so, there's no reason to let them die in that respect. JohnSmith82 (talk) 09:16, 10 June 2016 (MDT)
That changes a fair bit, because it never mentions the use of healing surge for the minions in any way. Most minions have half their HP cost as surges on death (these are power minions more). Additionally you don't say when you dismiss the minions. This actually has me thinking up a fair few ideas so I will be back with those soon. --Aitharious (talk) 14:00, 10 June 2016 (MDT)
Since the minion summoning is not tied to a power and it appears that your minions do not die at the end of the encounter you could have your minions cost you a number of healing surges equal to an HP equivalent (ei 1 for 1/4 HP) and they cannot be healed but remain with you until you take an extended rest, You technically need to give an at will power that allows you to summon them but that's not difficult. This way you always have equivalent surge value on the battle field and if you choose to re-summon before the minion is dead it's equivalent to overspending on the healing surges. This makes the WarHorse more risky but more powerful and the ghouls the safe but weaker option with the zombie being a mid-ground. The only counter argument is that you have more on field HP than possible for any other class but if foes focus on one of you or have attacks that can easily dispatch your minions you can find yourself running risky for future combat.--Aitharious (talk) 14:14, 10 June 2016 (MDT)
See, I thought it balanced pretty well, although costing healing surges to summon may mean that you have to choose between healing yourself and the minion.
Most classes have a hard limit to the amount of minion summoning, exception being (that I know of) being the shaman but it's summon is designed to act more like a minion level being expected to being taken out in a single attack. This surge cost associated with the minion puts it in line with how the summoning powers work for wizards, druids, and other controllers. The difference being, they pay when it's destroyed but it only lasts an encounter, you pay more and up front but you keep them with you and can continue to re-summon at will. So it provides an alternate system rather than an upgrade.
Additionally with this hard 1:1 cost at the initial summoning of the minion you could remove the hard daily limit to the summoning of the smaller minions. Although this would require a slight change to how your special minions work (at least last time I checked) --Aitharious (talk) 09:18, 13 June 2016 (MDT)
I think that's interesting, but for me it makes more sense if you spend the healing surges when they are killed. That way you are encouraged not to have your minion die, but you yourself can spend healing surges on yourself if you are attacked instead of your minion. Making it a bit more flexible. The minion limit also punishes you for your minion's dying a little more severely. JohnSmith82 (talk) 09:43, 13 June 2016 (MDT)

2. The defenses scale with level. They're very similar to the defenses for other pets or minions in other books. It's possible that I could allow for an enhancement bonus in there, however this would be from the Death Knight's own stats which, is already designed in there, as well.

It doesn't mention defensive scaling in your minion section, i would either base the defenses on the Deathknight's with bonuses and penalties or show the math behind their defenses up front.--Aitharious (talk) 12:26, 9 June 2016 (MDT)
Well, I believe it's in the Death Knight Minion's (4e Creature) area, in that they increase their defenses by 1/2 the Deathknight's level, however I can make sure it's more clearly posted. Also, perhaps the defenses should also improve with equipment. JohnSmith82 (talk) 09:16, 10 June 2016 (MDT)

3. The Basic damage scales with the Hunter's Quarry, Warlock's curse, Rogue backstabber, Executioner's Attack Finesse, and so on. It goes from a 1D8 or 1D10 to a 2d8 or 2d10 etc. This is deliberately designed to mirror the bonus damage granted by quarry or other secondary powers. So, it scales with level.

This is true but most strikers need a feat to bring it up to a D10 damage and don't have any way to even make it temporary double d10's (doomguard)--Aitharious (talk) 12:26, 9 June 2016 (MDT)
Well, the Doomguard is a temporary minion and replaces your quarry with say, the Sentinel's or Invokers daily type powers and whatnot. So, it's not really that overpowered, imo. Also, it may not require a feat bonus but it tends to average out over the character. They still do the same amount of damage by the end, even if it's slightly higher than these classes. I can show you some more calculations, however most are at the top of the discussion. JohnSmith82 (talk) 09:16, 10 June 2016 (MDT)

4. You bring up a good point, in that a Daily minion taking advantage of a minion strike power could become overpowered. However, they are special minion's rather than, minion's, which means that they don't qualify for that attack. I suppose I should make that more clear, perhaps by adding a note to it.

Still an issue as the warhorses 3d10 will become 9d10, averaging 45 damage, this would rival the most powerful attacks in the class in terms of damage, never mind other strikers.--Aitharious (talk) 12:26, 9 June 2016 (MDT)
Well, it's not that overpowered. The power would, at level 21, do 49.5 damage, which plus strength would be +9 damage, and plus the enhancement bonus be +5, and plus some kind of feat bonus would be +3, or 69.5 damage. Which is, not small. However, a mordenkrad or gouge would have 8 damage. For a 5[W] damage encounter, it would do 40 damage, +9 for strength, +5 for the enhancement bonus, and with a feat would provide +3, or 57 damage. At first glance, this appears weaker. However, you have to remember that, the Death Knight can also use his minion to attack for him. The average minion damage would be 3d10 or, 16.5, which now equates to an average damage of 73.5. As the minion is doing the striking, he can't provide a bonus to damage for that attack, and consumes it from the Death Knight. There are also other bonuses such as from, melee striker's bracers, that provide a +2 bonus to weapon damage rolls that a minion wouldn't get that, would also change the damage.
I could make it 2[minion], however that would make the power unusually weak. Still, it might just need to go that way. JohnSmith82 (talk) 09:16, 10 June 2016 (MDT)

Response: Powers[edit]

I'm going to ignore all the "See Minion" one's which, really just clutter everything up.

1. Why do you think Death's Embrace is too powerful? Simply saying it's too powerful doesn't prove that it's too powerful. Further, the Paladin has a similar ability, Ardent vow, and many other classes have similar abilities. So, it doesn't seem over powered and it's based on legitimate powers. It also requires a minor action to use so, it has to be used during your turn and only works on a successful attack.

2. There are plenty of powers which allow you to take the highest or lowest of a dice roll. Not to mention, even if this is a new addition to the game, that's the point. I'm trying to make a unique class with stand out abilities rather than be a direct copy of other classes. The most obvious example of this would be the "Oath of Enmity" power for the Avenger, a fundamental aspect of their class, which says "you make two attack rolls and use either result." The Goliath racial ability Power Athlete "When you make an Athletics check to jump or climb, roll twice and use either result." There are plenty of examples.

3. The Plague: There are plenty of encounters that can cause save ends, they just need to be rather weak, which this one is. The ongoing damage is equal to your Charisma modifier and only usable after you kill a creature.

4. The rising fury powers are implied to be used until the end of the encounter but, as that is perhaps easily missed I'll add it as a note.

5. The minion strike powers are implied to be used with regular minion's and not special minions, although, as that is perhaps easily missed I'll add it as a note.

6. Blight: Causing a save ends does exist on some at-wills. The ability would take 4 turns to stack and be equal to the +hit gained by Righteous Brand from the Cleric, or Commander's Strike from the warlord. In essence, the bonus it provides to your allies to attack is slightly less and takes longer to come to fruition, assuming that your opponent lost every saving throw. Because it's much weaker, takes longer to take effect and has a cap limit, it's not really overpowered. It's separate but equal. As for only targeting on defense, there's plenty of abilities that target all defenses with a penalty.

7. Unholy Covenant: That's not really a balancing issue. But, the fact it targets so many other defenses won't bog down the game that much as long as the dice rollers or automated dice rollers are fast enough. I could change the power but, that's more of a nitpick that would arise for certain dice rollers. Further, it's meant to be like a controller ability, as the class is meant to have secondary controller abilities. The Berserker in the Barbarian can push creatures, cause targets to be slowed or cause combat advantage etc. The monk for instance has controller like abilities. This is done across many classes.

8. Death's Touch: Why shouldn't it be a reach attack? You haven't really explained this, you just don't like it. It's not any different from simply having a ranged attack, equal to your Charisma modifier. That's not a real problem.

9. Enfeebling strike: There are other 1st level encounters that cause the blinded or dazed abilities, plenty of circumstances where you can target all defenses, and given that it does such low damage, it makes sense to cause ongoing damage with the encounter. Ongoing damage shouldn't be done with equal encounters, but some encounters do.

10. Tyr's Weapon: This is literally a copy of the Paladin power "Divine Weapon", although it changes the damage type to necrotic.

11. Inhuman sprint: This is literally a copy of the Barbarian Power "Combat Sprint", a utility power of the same level.

12. Dual Strike: There are other powers that establish a precedent that these things are not inherently wrong, as long as the power compensates in some way.

13. Crippling Will is weak on purpose to compensate for the fact that it immobilizes the target. Yes, things like this are done in the game.

14. Knight's Persistence: No, it shouldn't have to force "take the second roll", as demonstrated many powers don't necessarily have to do that, such as the Avenger powers or the Goliath racial etc.

15. Combat surge: No, it shouldn't have to force "take the second roll", as demonstrated many powers don't necessarily have to do that, such as the Avenger powers or the Goliath racial etc.

16. Actions surge: I disagree that it's only for paragon paths. Lots of powers modify action points. Even feats.

17. Diabolic grasp: Why should it only target one foe? Plenty of powers target multiple opponents. They also target multiple defenses.

18. Hellfire: Why should I make it all one attack?

19. Fimbulvinter: Domination is a player character effect in a lot of circumstances. For instance, the Minotaur Kinspeaker daily power. I could just make it a save ends, but I don't think that it's overpowered for making it last an extra turn.

20. Benediction: Well, yes, it's more like a controller ability. You have similar options across many striker classes to choose power or utility.

21. Avalanche of Gehenna: As a power that's a daily and high level, it can have two extra effects, such as restrained and a penalty to defense.

22. Necrosis: Yes, utilities don't do damage. So do, however.

23. Hand of death: I think targeting one defense or not is a matter of opinion.

24. Deaths Radiance: Good catch on the not specifying burst size.

25. Phantasmic Clash: Insubstantial is powerful, that is why it's a daily, waits until higher levels and the like. There are other powers that grant insubstantial.

26. Unyielding Heriophant: Well, yes, some of the powers are going to be like a controller, leader, defender etc., as classes tend to blend abilities.

27. Phantom's game: This is a copy of the Deva Racial Encounter power "Memory of a thousand lifetimes".

28. Mantle of the Undead: I feel like slowed or combat advantage is pretty weak given the level.

29: Annihilation: 7[W] damage I believe isn't that overpowered since that's all it does. Further, plenty of powers do 6[W] + a special effect, and there are a few that are 7[W].

30. *Apocalypse: Is an extremely powerful, level 29 daily power. Of course, that's going to be insanely powerful.

Things to move forward with[edit]

Sections to help break down discussion to clarify and help better. Doing small snippets and things piece by piece works better for me as I work ~9 hour days and have additional yard work and gardening to do as well. So my apologies for my previously hasty and vague rant.

What exactly is this class[edit]

On a side note, by stating exactly what this class we are simply putting more weight on the classes and powers that are within the same grouping, hopefully we needn't stray to far from what your original intentions and plans are to satisfy a proper balance rather than my hasty first analysis.

As it states this should be a striker, and from what I can tell a pure striker rather than a mixed bag. Next key thing to clarify is this going to be an essentials class? or original 4e? because that affects things allot as well. --Aitharious (talk) 22:32, 8 June 2016 (MDT)

I think a striker defender hybrid would fit well and since it has encounter powers it would be an original 4e class rather than an essentials. My reasoning for thinking this, it would give better reasoning for healing powers in addition to fitting the up-close fighter that this seems to be going for.--Aitharious (talk) 12:12, 9 June 2016 (MDT)
Well, that's not bad. I was thinking of making a psionic build that could be a controller, defender or striker given different auras/stances but, this particular class is designed as a Striker/Controller. Essentially like the, Monk or Sorcerer, or Assassin. JohnSmith82 (talk) 08:36, 10 June 2016 (MDT)


Is this page grammatically correct now, or is it not?

What notable changes have been made? --Green Dragon (talk) 11:04, 27 June 2017 (MDT)
I changed the power sources and some of the formatting. Is there anything wrong it in it's current form? JohnSmith82 (talk) 18:09, 27 June 2017 (MDT)

Responding to commentary[edit]

So, there have been arguments made that, certain words should not be capitalized, and thus render the page grammatically incorrect. Because the site rules on do not render unnecessary capitalization as grammatically incorrect, the posts should not be considered grammatically incorrect. This can be confirmed in the Help talk:When to Italicize and Capitalize area where the only thing specifically stated that cannot be capitalized is the unit indicating die size, and in the following comments by "Guy" that state unnecessary capitalization is not technically grammatically incorrect. According to a quote from the article Help:When to Italicize and Capitalize "The following should never be capitalized: The unit indicating die size (10d6 and d20 System Reference Document)". Because this is the only item listed indicating what should never be capitalized, it should be obvious that the only thing that is grammatically incorrect to capitalize, is the unit indicating the die size, such as in 1d10, or 2d10 etc. Therefore, capitalizing the word "Death Knight" for instance would be considered grammatically correct.

Addressing the arguments made by Marasumine, Geodude, and Green Dragon in User talk:Marasmusine the articles they've presented are off-site and thus aren't technically established rules for the D&D Wiki, and should not be considered as such. Regardless, according to the article Marasmusine [1] presented, it says "Some people may tell you that there are far more than just ten rules of capitalization in English, and with everything that you have to remember, that may be true. Others may say that there are only three rules, and they are also correct. The truth is that, depending on how you organize the rules, the rules of capitalization may be many or few." The article is simply claiming that these are guidelines which can be considered, not definitive facts for grammatical correctness in the English language. Even if this was considered relevant for the site rules on grammatical correctness, it would not prove that one cannot capitalize letters as they see fit. As for other authorities on grammatical correctness of unnecessary capitalization, such as [2], they say "You can choose to capitalize a word for emphasis, but avoid overusing this technique since it will lessen the effect." Again, this showing that it's a matter of personal opinion when you shouldn't capitalize words, meaning that you can capitalize words to your choosing. Words can be capitalized for emphasis, however it is poinent only to choose to capitalize certain words.

As well, I have never said that the term is a proper noun, so this is irrelevant to my argument. Nonetheless, I feel it's pretty clear that while certain words should always be capitalized, there is only one rule regarding which would should not be capitalized. This has been further clarified in the talk section of the help portal, as well. JohnSmith82 (talk) 03:31, 30 July 2017 (MDT)

"Unnecessary capitalization is not technically grammatically incorrect"? That is not what I said, nor what I meant to imply. - Guy (talk) 03:52, 30 July 2017 (MDT)
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