Talk:Zen Fencing (3.5e Feat)

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Excluded[edit]

Only for fighters?! Swashbucklers and Monks (with a sword proficiency) would be killer with this. Might be cool for Bards too. --Xenophon 03:27, 8 November 2006 (MST)

Should this be changed? What changes should be made? If so, would it still be completely balanced? My idea for a possible prerequisite would be a would be a prerequisite of character level 5... Your ideas? --Green Dragon 15:58, 8 November 2006 (MST)
I definitely seen no reason why this should be limited to fighters. Changing the ranks in sense motive to 10 ranks and adding Dodge (as it is an AC bonus to one opposing force) as a prerequisite seems more appropriate. Other than that, losing your dex against everyone else seems like a significant handicap to balance out the bonuses but still allow this feat to be a bonus. I'd totally slap this on my Swashbuckler/Dervish/Monk (My characters human, he can multiclass as much as he wants :P). Just thought that maybe add in a bit about being able to change which opponent to use this on ala Dodge. --Xenophon 22:09, 8 November 2006 (MST)
Upping the sense motive check to 10 makes this feat fighter-hostile. For fighters, sense motive is cross-class. A fighter would need to be 8th level? to get this feat. He would also need to spend all of his class skills to 8th level to get that feat. That is unreasonably expensive. The feat just isn't worth that cost. --Dmilewski 11:39, 9 November 2006 (MST)
What this is trying to accomplish is not the realm of a typical fighter. If you want some one who is insightful and zen-like you typically don't choose a fighter. You would choose a monk. Maybe the fighter could multiclass into something that allowed sense motive. Swashbucklers make very good, more insightful fighters. Perhaps a compromise can be reached and set it at 5. I'd just be concerned with the balance as a 1st level swashbuckler could take this, minus the 3rd level fighter prerequisite. My biggest issue with this is the restriction to fighters. It seems unreasonable to impose that limit. It's an awesome feat, maybe it's just not suited for the fighter. --Xenophon 13:11, 9 November 2006 (MST)
I think this was intended as a patch to make the fighter workable as a fencer. It's so-so for that goal. If for a fighter, I would expect something more like: allows the fighter to substitute BAB for bluff checks and sense motives against his dodge target.
In the hands of a cleric, this feat is way too good. It gives a damage bonus better than Weapon Focus/Expertise. At the same time, it gives an AC bonus with no drawbacks (clerics are usually in heavy armor and suffer little from losing their dex bonus). Finally, it lets the cleric drop attribute points in strength and concentrate that in Wisdom. So a cleric with a light mace (-1 damage) gets a +3 to +5 improvement to hit that stacks with everything (including strength), a +3 to +5 defense bonus that stacks with everything, the equivalent of skill focus in bluff, and the equivalent of skill focus in sense motive. That's too good. In my mind, this should be Fighter 4+ simply to make the cleric sacrifice four caster levels and two spell levels to get this ability.
This all makes me think that this feat needs to be thought out a little more or broken into more pieces. I like the concept of the feat, but once I thought about it, it really misses the mark. --Dmilewski 14:29, 9 November 2006 (MST)
I agree. This should go back to the drawing board. I see your point with over powering the Cleric but limiting it to only a fighter is kind of a tacked on way to balance it. --Xenophon 15:47, 9 November 2006 (MST)
How could we re-balance this? Ideas? --Green Dragon 17:26, 9 November 2006 (MST)
Excluding the fighter restriction and moving this way from being a fighter specific feat I feel my suggestions balance this out. If people feel strongly enough about including low level fighters then we could put a general level minimum of 3, borrowing from the original requirements. I know that Fighters generally don't have the high wisdom of Clerics, but that's no where near impossible. We'd get the same twinkiness out of a Fighter that we would from the Cleric example Dmilewski gave. Alternatively the Cleric example is rather void as Clerics typically don't use finessable weapons and if they did wear the heavy armor that killed their dex bonus to AC, they wouldn't be getting much of a bonus using Weapon Finesse. --Xenophon 03:14, 10 November 2006 (MST)
So, what prerequisites would you recommend? --Green Dragon 22:26, 12 November 2006 (MST)
I would propose: Dex 15, Wis 13, Weapon Finesse, Sense Motive 5 ranks, BAB +3. Also, include in the description that the bonuses will only work if the character is unarmored or wearing light armor. I feel this balances it as well as finds a middle ground. --Xenophon 04:50, 13 November 2006 (MST)
Changed. Thanks. --Green Dragon 22:24, 13 November 2006 (MST)

Notes[edit]

imba... even a monk cant use his wis bonus for attack rolls. Provided this feat, you even overwhelm the advantage of wisdom only to your ac possesed by a ONLY MONK SPECIAL that cant be acquired by no other means. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by XXxDaRkLoRd666xXx (talkcontribs) . Please sign your posts.

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