SRD Talk:Two-Weapon Fighting

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Hey everyone, quick question. I have a rogue that I want to dual wield short swords. I am only 7th level so I only have the one BAB. My question is, can I still attack with both swords although I don't get another BAB until next level?

I don't know who posted this or when but here goes, BAB (the +5 that you have) is with one weapon, equipping another gives you a base attack bonus of -1//-5 because of the -6//-10 but with the Two-Weapon Fighting feat you have a BAB of 3//3 and when you level up you BAB becomes 4/-1//4 instead of 6/0, you cannot gain extra attacks due to BAB with your offhand without picking up Improved and Greater Two-weapon Fighting feats which each give you an extra attack. Is that as clear to you as it sounds to me? :/ OmegaXicor (talk) 05:00, 15 December 2012 (MST)

Confusion on rules[edit]

Let's assume a character has a BAB of +7/+2. Normally, without any Feats, the player would be able to draw their weapon and strike twice in their turn. Let's assume they are using a dagger dealing 1d4 damage. Both of their strikes land and neither are critical.

Suggest their two damage rolls are 2 and 4. This would mean that their total damage is 9 [2+7] & 6 [4+2].

NOTE: I am listing the full damage outside of the brackets while inside of the brackets it is the Damage Roll followed by the BAB. I wanted to clear that up now because the math gets dicey and anyone reading with Dyslexia may have a hard time following.

With that, they've dealt a total of 15 damage (9 + 6).

Now we introduce Two-Weapon Fighting. Under the rules it states that if the Off hand weapon is Light and they have the Two-Weapon Fighting Feat, their Primary hand is reduced by -2 and their Off hand is also reduced by -2.

Let's now suggest that the player wishes to use a second dagger; 1d4 again.

NOTE: Because of the confusion with math since both are at "-2", for the purposes of this post I am temporarily changing the penalties from "-2 Primary / -2 Off" to "-2 Primary / -4 Off".

Going back to the initial +7/+2 BAB and the initial damage rolls of 2 and 4, with the penalties of -2 & -4, do the new stats become;

9 [2+7] & 6 [4+2]

9 -2 Primary & 6 -4 Off

7 & 2

Total of 9 damage.

or, would these numbers become;

9 [2+7] & 6 [4+2] with an additional strike of +0 BAB which requires another damage roll.

Let's assume the new damage roll is that of a Critical 3 (x2 with dagger, or 6 damage).

9 [2+7] & 6 [4+2] & 6 [6+0]

9 -2 Primary & 6 -2 Primary & 6 -4 Off

7 & 4 & 2

Total of 13 damage.

The reason this is confusing is because if the player can naturally make a second strike due to their second BAB, the very act of Two-Weapon Fighting becomes redundant and void, making the penalties nothing more than unjust. If however an additional strike is made (As with Improved Two-Weapon Fighting [-5] and Greater Two-Weapon Fighting [-10]), and this additional strike is at the penalty listed for the Off hand weapon, than it makes more sense.

Without using Two-Weapon Fighting, the player has dealt a total of 15 damage.

With using Two-Weapon Fighting without an additional attack, the player has dealt a total of 9 damage.

With using Two-Weapon Fighting with an additional attack as the "Off hand strike", the player has dealt 13 damage, with a Critical scored.

It should also be recognized that with the third scenario, the only reason the player has dealt 13 damage is because they rolled a Critical 3, giving a total of 6 additional damage. Had that been a Natural 3, it would become less. That math is listed below.

9 [2+7] & 6 [4+2] with an additional strike of +0 BAB which requires another damage roll.

Let's assume the new damage roll is that of a Natural 3.

9 [2+7] & 6 [4+2] & 3 [3+0]

9 -2 Primary & 6 -2 Primary & 3 -4 Off

7 & 4 & -1 (Miss, because it is lower than 0 and 0 is a miss)

7 + 4 = 11

Total of 11 damage.

With using Two-Weapon Fighting with an additional attack as the "Off hand strike", the player has dealt 11 damage, when no Critical was scored.

So what we conclude to is that the total damage is 15 without the use of this Feat, but becomes one of three possibilities of either 9, 11, or 13 when using this Feat. All possibilities following the same base mechanics are lower than the normal damage. Because of this I feel the mechanics should be revisited. When we introduce the next two stages; Improved Two-Weapon Fighting and Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, things become even more complicated.

This is because Improved offers an additional strike at a -5 penalty, while Greater offers yet another strike, this time at a whopping -10 penalty.

Rolling such high penalties against such small rolls makes them almost impossible to gain unless increasingly powerful and deadly weapons are acquired, which typically are not considered "Light", therefore increasing the natural penalties under Two-Weapon Fighting to rise, making the damage even less.

A possible solution may be that instead of taking a penalty against the damage, the DC should increase.

That is, for Two-Weapon Fighting, the "bonus" strike for your Off hand weapon (At a penalty as it's not your Primary hand) requires, say, a DC 12 instead of a normal DC 10.

Improved Two-Weapon Fighting may end up raising this even higher, while Greater requires basically a Critical.

This may seem confusing and it's just a suggestion. I understand nobody will want to rebuild a system that so many are currently using or looking to use. I'm merely stating the fact that the mechanics of the system seem overtly flawed.

I think you may have the rules a little confused. Your base attack bonus (the +7/+2) is not your damage bonus, it is simply your bonus to hit. Your damage bonus is pure strength modifier, unless you have a class feature or feat that changes what modifier you use. So if your rogue is using a single dagger with a +2 strength modifier you will be +9/+4 to hit and deal 1d4+2. The same rogue dual wielding would have a -2 to attacks for light weapons and would have either +7/+7/+2 or +7/+7/+2/+2 with each attack dealing 1d4+2 with main hand and 1d4+1 with offhand. Also since there is no limit to the amount of times you can backstab with flank in a round each attack would benefit from the backstab modifier dice. In theory if you hit with all 4 attacks (as a +7 requires level 10 and adds 5d6 damage) you could potentially add 20d6 every round from a flanking position. Hope that clarifies a few things. Tivanir (Speak to me) (talk) 11:54, 7 August 2013 (MDT)
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