Talk:Time Walker, Variant (3.5e Class)
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Yo. Various point by point ability looks first.
- Flow of time only works on HIS rolls, right?
- Temporal Strike seems good, and actually encourages hit and run, as a medium-level Time Walker wants to stab as many people with it as he can. Temporal Strike is also not a melee attack - intended?
- You WILL get flak for the fast healing, I can practically guarantee it. Ignore it.
- I'm really not sure how much use Delay is going to get. It's also not a melee attack. Intended?
- Annul seems like it's going to be a very, very low bonus. It should scale, to some extent. Perhaps even become a swift action later on, or work at the end of any round in which the Time Walker DOESN'T use his reroll. You also want to remove the bit about Fast Healing, as there's no reason why it wouldn't, and as is it's possible to read that you get the fast healing bonus twice.
- For Moment Stop, you're going to want to clarify what happens if someone with a 30 ft movement moves 15 ft to stand next to the time walker, prepares to attack, and then the time walker moves. Can he use the rest of his move?
- Greater Delay seems a bit too strong, although not by much. You can very easily juggle a single enemy to oblivion, seeing as you have a free reroll to make sure you hit and all that. I'd add in a save, or maybe just a save with no attack roll. Or maybe make it only eat up part of the person's action (like make them Slowed, although that's going too far in the other direction).
- Renewal, fast healing, same as Annul. Why not just make it once per day? As it's a free action, the Time Walker is able to use Renewal in response to attacks. Can he do so after suffering an attack that would kill him? What about one that would drop him unconscious?
- Does Improved Moment Stop replace Moment Stop? Note that as written now, it doesn't - and that's going to be too much if they can be used to fully avoid melee attacks. Instead of "attacks of opportunity still apply", it should read something like "move at their full base land speed (provoking attacks of opportunity as normal)".
- For Foresight, I think the common terminology used is "He may act normally in the surprise round".
- Dichtomy- holy mother of flavor text, batman. What's with the "gear up to a medium load" bit? Like that matters? The living material bit should be changed to living creatures. If a time walker is wearing vineleaf armor, that's a living armor, that should totally be transferred. The ability, overall, seems way too powerful. I would put some kind of limit onto it, or have some kind of penalty going on when it's in play. Saying "There's two of you now" isn't nearly as cool as the Time Walker going up to the big bad, and then making some epic speech and splitting into two just for the fight.
There's two main problems I see with the class's design as-is. The first, is that it lacks an early level punch. In particular, I'd say the levels from about 4ish up until you get Foresight seem a bit barren. The other problem has to do with stats - there's no point in putting a good score into wisdom until you get Foresight. I wouldn't put a bad score, but in a point buy I can't see buying more than 14 for wisdom. It's definitely not the primary stat. I think the class needs something early on based on wisdom. Consider giving it some sort of offensive push, and making it limited use (per encounter or day, doesn't matter). You seem to intend for this class to be a melee one, but as-written, all of its effects make it better off with a bow. If those abilities are going to be changed to melee-only, I'd also change the ability suggestion. As written, str/con/wis/dex/int/cha is the way to go for stats if you're melee. Especially as with the large dex bonus, you'll be pushing up against max dex bonuses already, and you need the strength for accuracy and damage. If you're being an archer, dex/con/wis, with either str or int depending on longbow or crossbow is the way to go stat wise.
Overall, the class is very interesting, and looks pretty well balanced. It's definitely something I'd play, especially with it's unique combat role.Dragon Child 04:49, 6 May 2009 (MDT)
- Does the Flow of time activate like Barbarian's rage which is instantaneous or does it take a action (stranded, move, ect.).
- Okay, point by point response:
- Flow of Time: Yes, I shall go clarify that.
- Temporal Strike: What do you mean not melee, it could be used as a ranged attack, but still uses attack roll mechanics. I'm not paticularly clear on your question.
- Fast Healing: I see no reason that getting a small ammount of fast healing is bad.
- Delay: Again, not clear on the question.
- Annul: Will rework that wording. I think maybe changing it to any round where he didn't use his reroll would be fair.
- Moment Stop: Good point, and in that case, no, the guy that moved wouldn't get to move again unless he had spring attack.
- Greater Delay: Hmmm, I might add in a save for both the delays.
- Renewal: I didn't make it once a day since, this way, it can be up to about 23 times a day, and yes, it is intended to be able to be used even after death, I shall rework the wording there too.
- Improved Moment Stop: You can still elect to use the lower version, though, you can't use both in the same round, and I will rework the wording.
- Foresight: Will rework that line then (in all the things I have that use similar effects too).
- Dichotomy: I am the daddy of flavor text, boy. But yeah, I was thinking it may have been too powerful when I finished typing it. Any suggestions as to what would be a good penalty for it are welcomed.
- Well, as for the early punch, I think that the ability to reroll a single roll a round is a pretty good punch, but yes, it needs to focus a bit more on wisdom, cause right now all that the bonus from the flow of time is doing is giving them really high Will saves.
- Thanks though for the compliment man, I've been rolling the mechanics for this around in my head for a while, and I'm still not sure if it's balanced, but apparently so. → Rith (talk) 07:52, 6 May 2009 (MDT)
- Ok, I see how my melee thing was confusing, as I wrote it when I was half-asleep. When I meant to say was, the flavor text of the class seems to say "These are totally things you do with your sword", but yet they aren't melee ONLY - I wanted to make sure you realized that as written, they could be used with a bow. A save for both delays seems to be too much. Delay seems rather weak, while Greater Delay is overly strong. For the duplicate, I'd think maybe if damage taken between them was added together (so AOEs are the way to take them down) and.... something something, I'll think about it. As written, the class really has three major builds. The first is to run around with a huge strength score, a two-handed reach weapon, spring attack, combat reflexes, and power attack, bouncing all over the place and making single blows that deal semi-moderate damage and fatiguing people. With the reroll and the touch attack and the bonus, that first roll will very, very likely hit, so Power Attack can make it hurt. The other two builds are a standard archer, with dex then strength, or an archer who's crossbow focused and ignores strength and takes (Crossbow Sniper? I think that's the name). That's how the class immediately seems like it would play to me, and the melee version is pretty appealing, if for no other reason than it's damn unique, rewards good judgment (how much SHOULD you power attack for?) and actually can use spring attack. Dragon Child 15:37, 6 May 2009 (MDT)
- Well man, it's good to know people like it. But yeah, I never really intended them to be melee-only, except for delay and greater delay, since they say, "make a single attack against an adjacent opponent as a standard action," though I may change that 'adjacent' bit. I probably will add in the AoE thing that you mentioned, and possibly make it so they can't leave a certain distance of one another. As for those three builds, yes, I could see each one really making it into a game, and the melee one appeals to me too. → Rith (talk) 15:57, 6 May 2009 (MDT)
Hey--one of my players linked me to this and requested to roll up as a Time Walker. This thing seems, I have to say, extremely powerful. Point by point:
- Flow of Time should not scale uses per day based on HD. It should scale with levels in Time Walker. That makes this less absolutely delicious to dip into. The duration also strikes me as long, but it seems to be about the same length as barbarian rage--with the difference that this has NO drawbacks while it's on. The payment is steeper, yeah, with the 2-round daze, but lacking the balancing factor of the penalties raging gives I think far tips the comparison in the Time Walker's favor. I'd say, if you're not going to limit it to once per encounter like Barb Rage, halve the duration and the daze period (since they have no reason NOT to use it, except to save it for a later encounter).
- Temporal Strike. Why is this a touch attack? With the bonus to hit the ability gets, it's probably not going to miss anyway, and the added damage and accuracy of the blow--plus, of course, the fatigue with no save--probably does enough. Especially since this happens every round without any special requirements, like flanking or flatfoot for a rogue's sneak attack.
- Delay, actually, is one of the class features that strikes me as weak. You could pump it up to 'take a standard action to force the opponent to take a single action on their next turn', which would scale well into my second suggestion for Greater Delay.
- Moment Stop, and all of its scaled iterations. Wow. That completely shuts down a melee fighter that targets the Time Walker once every 1d4 rounds, or any caster moving in for touch spells. Make it provoke an AoO at the very least, otherwise, Time Walkers will butcher melee fighter types, guaranteed--especially since they'll have the crazy AC to dance around them anyway. Also, I would suggest you clarify whether the rolled result counts the round the ability is used in in its timer--if you roll a 1, can it be used the next round?
- Greater Delay. It can force an opponent to lose a turn with just a melee blow (not dazed, which some creatures may have resistance or immunity to, nor stun, which creatures may have resistance or immunity to). That seems a brutal way to shut down a character, especially if the Time Walker isn't rolling solo. The fact that it gets a save is a start towards balancing it out, but I think it should be an actual listed status and not just 'you miss the next turn', especially since 'missing the turn' would make some confusion with multi-round actions (for example, does it count as a hiccup for Concentration-based duration spells? What about spells that have casting times longer than one round?). I might suggest you make it a swift action, and make it force a single action (like a zombie) on the target, though, instead. That way, it doesn't completely shut down the other guy, but is only a boost to the Time Walker. Maybe slap a use limit on it if you go the swift action route.
- Fearless, to me, simply doesn't fit. It seems tacked on to avoid a dead level, which is not something this class really needs to fear. At most, I'd suggest a +4 bonus or so to saves against fear, but this guy has save boosts up the wazoo anyway.
- It doesn't really make sense to me that Foresight boosts Will and Fortitude. Well, maaaybe Fortitude, since you can argue you're bracing yourself better, but that's kind of stretching it. It already does a lot--I'd suggest leaving it on just Reflex of the saves, and that should be enough. Tagging a guaranteed surprise round onto it strikes me as overkill, but it is a 17th-level ability, and I'm sure somebody on here will point to some XP-cost-heavy 9th-level spell with a uses per day limit as a counterbalancing point.
- Dichotomy... I'm really not sure how to approach this one, but here goes. I don't think my player's going to get to a point where he'll be able to use it, so I'm not really all that concerned, but it being able to duplicate things of which there is only supposed to be one strikes me as potentially gamebreaking. I mean, for one, whenever magical loot is received, you can bet it's going to be duplicated. Any magic item that can stack with duplicates of itself is going to be utterly broken with this ability--especially since duplicate gear doesn't fade with the duplicate's death. Got a cleric? You can now split that one completely universally unique +5 Sword of Campaign Relevance and Villain Killing among your entire party. It might take a week, but each day you're making tens of thousands of gold for no XP cost anyway--just a bit of HP loss from activating the ability. If you want to close this sizeable hole in game physics, I'd suggest you make the gear and the corpse fade when one of them dies.
I'm probably going to have him play a watered down version of the class like I described here anyway, but I'd thought I'd put these tweaks and explanations as to why up so that you could consider them. Sildraug 16:32, 9 September 2009 (MDT)
Power - 5/5 The time walker variant seem like a very well balanced class. It a nicely powerful without being overwhelming or underwhelming. --Lord Dhazriel 17:24, 26 May 2009 (MDT)
Wording - 5/5 I see no flaw there. --Lord Dhazriel 17:24, 26 May 2009 (MDT)
Flavor - 5/5 I really like the time walker abilities, playing with it could be really fun. The class features are unique and thus bring new things to the table without being alien or overcomplicated. --Lord Dhazriel 17:24, 26 May 2009 (MDT)
Nice flavour, heavily imbalanced
The longer I look at this, the more I am convinced that this guy is way too strong. But first things first: I like the concept and I like almost every one of the abilities, some of which are quite creative. It's just that most abilities -- and much more the combination of them -- are too powerful.
I share most of Sildraug's concerns, so I won't repeat them here.
- d10 hit die, full BAB, two good saves -- this cries monk. Okay, but I see no reason for the good Will save and, in an attempt to add more balance, would change it to d8 hit die.
- 4 skill points, class skills: I don't see why this class needs so many skill points and class skills. I see no motivation for the many Charisma based class skills. I would change it to 2 points per level and the fighter's class skills (plus maybe Tumble).
- Flow of time: Cool, but should be based on CL, not HD.
- Walk the Aeons (Ex): Oookay. If you don't give him too many offensive powers, it is okay to strengthen the defensive.
- Temporal Strike: Temporal existence. Yeah right ;) Although it's a cool idea, it practically means that his opponent will be fatigued every round. Add either a save, or another condition (like "only while using Flow of Time").
- Fast Healing (Ex): This practically equals 10 extra hit points plus absolutely no more need of healing between encounters. Way too much at 3rd level. You could limit it to only work while Flowing through Time and/or change it to +1 every 5 levels.
- Fast Movement (Ex): I would halve this bonus.
- Delay: Nice and innovative, but could slow gameplay down as monsters will no longer act on the same initiative count.
- Annul (Ex): Could be dropped completely, see fast healing. If you must keep it, make it an alternative to the use of the reroll ability.
- Moment Stop: See Sildraugs comment above and make it a regular immediate action if only to simplify game play.
- Greater Delay, Fearless: See Sildraug. For the DC, you probably meant hit dice, wrote hit die, but you should have used CL instead.
- Renewal: What you describe there is, in fact, an immediate action, not a free action.
In fact I will stop here, at level 10. You get the picture. As a general note, consider making more of the abilities count against the uses of "Flow of Time". This could add some extra balance.
As I mentioned earlier, I like the abilities. But I'm sure this build would be too strong compared to standard classes (or standard encounters). --DonEsteban 08:37, 19 November 2009 (MST)
Power - 2/5 The ensemble of abilites is too strong, as detailed above . --DonEsteban 08:37, 19 November 2009 (MST)
Wording - 4/5 A few typos, still. --DonEsteban 08:37, 19 November 2009 (MST)
Flavor - 5/5 The abilities will be interesting to play and there are a lot of hints how to flesh out the character. --DonEsteban 08:37, 19 November 2009 (MST)