Talk:Pun-Pun (3.5e Optimized Character Build)

[edit] Posted on the Boards:

This optimized character was taken from the Wizards Boards by permission, the thread related to this spell is: [1]

Green_Dragon

[edit] he scares me

let me just say one thing, pun-pun is so good if one were to fight him his CR would be somewhere in the millions, possibly even billions.

oh, and nice joke and manipulation of abilities and spells

[edit] Wow...

How long did it take you to think of this?

[edit] Somthing missing

I can see one weakness in Pun Pun, he needs Mettle for the save for partial spells that are out there.

He can simply grant himself Mettle, Evasion, and anything else that ever shows up in any printed book. No problem there. Alternatively, he'll just grant himself immunity to any effect you could ever create with partial Will/Fortitude spells (poison etc. etc. etc.) --Mkill 03:18, 3 July 2007 (MDT)

[edit] SUPREME Supreme Cleave

Grant Pun-Pun the War Hulk PrC's ability Massive Swing. Since he already has limitless sight and infinite reach (even across planes), you can now use a standard attack action to make one melee attack roll and compare that roll to the AC of every creature you threaten (which is every creature anywhere on any plane). Note that you can be selective about which squares you target, so you can use this for selective genocide to one-hit-kill entire species, or just go ahead and wipe out every living thing everywhere. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by IanUilliam (talk • contribs) 11:09, 8 January 2007 (MST). Please sign your posts!

The question is... Can Pun-Pun do enough damage to kill himself? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Aarnott (talk • contribs) 11:19, 8 January 2007 (MST). Please sign your posts!

Infinite damage verses infinite health.... Hm... This is a very good optimization :). --Green Dragon 16:19, 8 January 2007 (MST)

My heart weeps after seeing such a thing Flession 10:14, 24 March 2007 (MDT)

1-1=0, so Infinate-Infinate still equals 0 (X-X=0, mathmatical fact). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.66.55.0 (talk • contribs) 13:31, 19 May 2007 (MDT). Please sign your posts!

Then he takes himself down to zero... Hopefully he does not do a strenuous action, otherwise he will be okay :). --Green Dragon 23:29, 28 May 2007 (MDT)

WHOA!!!!! 84.66.55.0 --- Infinity is not a real!! You can not add infinity with the same rules you use to add reals---just like you can not add complex numbers with same the rules as reals. Infinity subtract infinity is unknown, NOT zero!! — Blue Dragon (talk) 16:21, 31 May 2007 (MDT)

Being a mathematician this is very close to my speciality (measure theory and fractional calculus) and actually is one of my supervisor's topic (descriptive set theory). The first thing you need to understand about infinity is that it is not unique. There are (literally) an infinite number of infinities. The "infinity" which corresponds with the integers is much smaller than the "infinity" which corresponds with the reals. So if I take R, and sift out all the intergers, I still get infinity. But if I take the intergers and sift out the reals, I delete my whole set, so I'm left with nothing. To follow up on BD, there is nothing wrong with infinity + infinity (the larger "kills" the smaller), the difference is this operation is not invertible so we have no subtraction. Thirdly to answer Aarnott, Pun-Pun has regeneration, and can always save himself from massive damage, so no. --Pwsnafu 19:03, 1 June 2007 (MDT)

Note that Pun-Puns HD are infinite in the sense that he can boost them up to any natural number, or lim (a -> inf) HD = inf as a mathematician would put it, where a is the number of actions he takes to boost HD. It means that only if he uses the Infinite Action Loop to boost his HD they truly become infinite.

And Pun-Pun can't kill himself with a weapon because he is immune to weapon damage and has both Fast Healing and Regeneration. Even if he manages to knock himself out he comes back like the Tarrasque. --Mkill 18:11, 3 July 2007 (MDT)

Pun-Pun could simply increase his Constitution to be significantly higher than his Strength, whilst keeping his Strength high enough to destroy anything except himself in one hit.

Does this mean Pun-Pun is what happened to the dinosaurs?

Infinity minus infinity does not always equal 0. Go take calculus. 216.186.245.184 21:05, 24 November 2012 (MST)

[edit] Err...

What if I shot him with a huge cannon of godly greatness at point blanc range? Would He die then? This Pun-pun thing is crazy. Also, you need a LINE OF SIGHT in order to make a spot check anyway (evem Pun-pun cannot see through a planet...). And, even with limitless ranks, a natural one ALWAYS FAILS. Any you still cant see someone who rolls a natural twenty for their hide check. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.66.55.0 (talk • contribs) 13:24, 19 May 2007 (MDT). Please sign your posts!

Incorrect. Pending a house rule, there is no automatic pass or fail for skill checks. -- Flession 17:29, 19 May 2007 (MDT)

In many cases (and when I play) a natural 20 is plus a certain number while a natural 1 is minus a certain number. This variant is described in greater detail in the DMG. However, this variant makes it so pun-pun will always hit and always kill. --Green Dragon 23:45, 22 May 2007 (MDT)

Gods above a certain rank don't fail on natural 1s and gods above a higher rank (I think it's 16) automatically get the maximum roll on all attacks, checks and saves. MorkaisChosen 03:59, 1 June 2007 (MDT)

Plus technically Pun Pun can do a hilarious variety of things to circumvent even this. Having limitless HD, he qualifies for virtually every feat in existence, including luck feats that give you rerolls and feats that mitigate the cost of skill failures. Having limitless or at least gigantic amounts of actions, if he messes up a skill roll he can do it again. He can always take 10 or take 20 for a large proportion of problems, especially due to feats and class abilities that let one do so under the vast majority of conditions. He can also grant himself immunity to every sub-variety of negative event from rolling a 1, infinite rerolls, etc. with Manipulate Form cheese.

Regarding LoS limitations, there's a ton of ways around this too. Pun-Pun could grant himself eyes all over his body with x-ray vision. He can abuse various clairvoyance or remote viewing abilities, or just grant himself an extraordinary ability that lets him attack without line of sight. And I believe he could grant himself eyes on his reaching "arms" of essentia or use touch.

[edit] Ice Assassin?

So, I get this whole Pun-Pun business, but I'm still confounded on one point. The assumption of Pun-Pun's divine rank is depented on his creating the Nut-Puns which is, in turn, dependent on his receiving a divine rank from the god-clones he creates using Ice Assassin. What supplement/thread/board/etc. is this spell/spell-like ability found in? Everything else has a relevant source, but this one is left mysteriously unexplained. --Rakankou 10:38, 29 May 2007 (MDT)

A Far Corners of the World article; Snow and Ice: Spells of the Frozen Lands. —Sledged (talk) 10:50, 29 May 2007 (MDT)

Most helpful; thank you. --Rakankou 11:59, 29 May 2007 (MDT)

Is a god a "living, breathing" creature as per Ice Assassin? That's debatable. --Mkill 03:16, 3 July 2007 (MDT)

Oddly enough, it doesn't stipulate that the creature to be duplicated need be a living, breathing one; only that the duplicate is a living, breathing copy. Theoretically, you could make a duplicate of an undead, construct, or a non-native outsider. —Sledged (talk) 09:08, 3 July 2007 (MDT)

Ahh, you're right. The spell is just lovely. Even without Pun-Pun, there are plenty of ways to abuse the spell. The simple fact alone that you can create a copy of someone, which gains all the original's memories, and it is under your command, suddenly puts all knowledge that ever existed at your command. Just command it to tell you what you want to know. The spell doesn't even prevent you from copying people who are already dead, and (arguably) people who are not born yet. The one annoying part, that the copy wants to run away and kill the original, can be easily prevented by commanding it not to. Well, even if the stupid thing does kill the original, you can still use it, but I wonder what happens to the killing urge. Since the critter costs 20,000 gp and 5,000 XP and is very hard to heal, it is actually a waste of ressources to send it out to actually fight someone. I'd rather create a love slave, use it as a decoy for the king who is in my torture chambers, create a duplicate of my son to confuse enemies and paparazzi (remember that you can always command it not to kill him), create a pet archmage, heck, you could even create duplicates of Superman and Batman to finally answer the question of who would win in a duel ...

Another funny fact: It says you can only repair damage using a certain ritual, but it does not say you can't heal or cure it, and that it is immune to Fast Healing and Regeneration. --Mkill 17:54, 3 July 2007 (MDT)

Also, Pun-Pun himself doesn't need the gold or XP to create it, since he's using a spell-like ability. He still needs the ice statue (shouldn't be too hard, just a nonmagical block of ice in a certain shape) and 8 hours, which is hard to shorten or use time-extending methods for- I wonder if there's any way to create a plane with a time trait? Nonetheless, he can still create 3 ice statues per day if he does nothing else that day, which should be powerful enough. Among other things, this gets around possible issues with Pun-Pun creating magic items. --24.147.186.88 20:13, 23 February 2011 (MST)

Those are some good points you bring up, but it does leave one question. In your hypothetical duel between Superman and Batman, how do you plan to get some bit of each of them (one of the material components of Ice Assassin, as per the article linked above)? Furthermore, how is Pun-Pun supposed to go about procuring some bit of a deity with a divine rank of at least one? Or does that come with being a Divine Minion?

The easiest way to achieve that is either the Eschew Materials feat or the epic Ignore Material Components. Note that Pun-Pun has unlimited feats from unlimited hit dice. In fact, he can pretty much boost himself to fulfill almost any prerequisite, so he can be assumed to have almost any feat ever published.

By the way, he does have unlimited hit dice, but I assume these are racial hit dice? Or does he get class levels? --Mkill 23:18, 3 July 2007 (MDT)

I believe they technically are neither. Rather, they are something like a positive energy version of energy drain made permanent. That wouldn't really count as racial or class, but still has all the benefits of HD.

[edit] After all

The whole Pun-Pun example should serve as a warning to any game designer out there. The "Manipulate Form" ability was never meant to fall into player hands. But the designers obviously completely underestimated player creativity. Of course there will be a way to get it. So, never ever publish a "do what you want" ability and always check "what is the worst thing that could happen if this falls into the hands of a PC". --Mkill 03:20, 3 July 2007 (MDT)

Thankfully, they fixed this build with a errata. It's no longer possible to do what Pun-Pun does... -- Flession 07:07, 3 July 2007 (MDT)

Did they really? What did they change? --Mkill 23:19, 3 July 2007 (MDT)

[edit] Native to Toril

I just realized that to pull off Pun-Pun, the PC has to be native to Toril (i.e. the Forgotten Realms Campaign world). It's right in the Manipulate Forms ability. I wonder whether there is a way to become a "native of Toril" when you're in a different campaign setting. --Mkill 18:30, 3 July 2007 (MDT)

I hope not... --Sam Kay 06:56, 20 November 2007 (MST)

Gates of Dawn, Players Handbook 2 --Colona 18:33, 10 August 2008 (PST)

Or some of the rituals from Savage Species TheMadLinguist

[edit] Divine Minion Wildshape Ability

I was reading the Divine Minion template on the Wizards website and it clearly reads:

"A divine minion can wild shape as an 11th-level druid into one or more animal forms that depend on the deity it serves..."

Not to mention the under Master of Many Forms it clearly states it requires the Wild Shape CLASS FEATURE, and applying a template to a race makes it a RACIAL ability. If it was open to anyone who can change forms that would have said something like wild shape class feature OR shapechange ability. Otherwise this would open up the class for anything that can shapechange, like a werewolf. I don't think that is what they were thinking of when they wrote up this class.

Even if you do it, then your effective level for wild shape should be the divine minion level plus the master of many forms level (in this case 4, 1+3=4) and the "as an 11th level druid" should be limited to the specific animals granted by their diety, not to all their shapeshifting. It isn't even a true wildshape ability, since it's limited to a couple of specific animals

I wouldn't say this was done completely by the rules, but by a creative intrpretation of what CLASS FEATURE means and allowing them to use the "as an 11th level druid" in conjunction with the master of many forms instead of just the divine minion level of 1.

Here is the source of my information: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050209a —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.169.169.233 (talk • contribs) 2007-11-19 22:44. Please sign your posts!

This was actually not made on D&D Wiki. If you think it is broken please bring it up with the creators of this CO on wizards.com. --Green Dragon 16:59, 25 November 2007 (MST)

Theres another way to stop this specific build with an interpretation of class feature. Technically, the Divine Minion template doesn't grant the Wild Shape feature at all in any form. It grants "fast wild shape" which is a new ability that functions as the Wild Shape ability of an 11th level druid. So the Wild Shape abilities you would get from being an 11th level druid are merely an explanatory way of describing the Fast Wild Shape ability. So you couldn't qualify for Master of Many forms at all, since you don't technically have the Wild Shape ability in any form.

Well this is easy to get around...take levels of Druid. It takes longer, but it works just as well. --Daniel Draco 10:06, 29 April 2008 (MDT)

[edit] Not to mention...

When you wildshape, you change into a RACE, not a CLASS. WuJen is a class and not a race, so how can you give a WuJen ability to yourself?

You can change into a cockroach and give yourself the ability to live through a nuke, but you can't shapechange into a wizard and give yourself the scribe scroll ability. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.169.169.233 (talk • contribs) 2007-11-19 23:06. Please sign your posts!

You are right. Although I do not see why you would need to use it to transform into a cockroach and live through a nuke, as nukes have not yet been invented at the time D&D is usually set. --Sam Kay 06:54, 20 November 2007 (MST)

The Wu Jen ability is not granted through wildshape. It's granted via the manipulate form ability. —Sledged (talk) 10:26, 20 November 2007 (MST)

In which case it is fine. --Sam Kay 12:17, 20 November 2007 (MST)

[edit] Munckin. I would kill a player who tried to pull this.

Munchkin. That's all I have to say. SUPER MUNCHKIN. -Fallen.Angel09

Many character optimizations are very much Munchkin. That's the point of them. They are usually either intended to just see if you can build one, or are intended for use in high-powered campaigns where the goal is mostly to build as powerful a character as you can. This particular build is so powerful that it's not meant to be played even in a high-powered campaign...it's purely a thought experiment. There's nothing wrong with munchkinism, it's just that there is a proper place for it...this section of the wiki is one such proper place. --Daniel Draco 10:03, 29 April 2008 (MDT)

My boyfriend's characters could *maybe* wipe this guy off the map. This is not a good thing. What can I do (as a multiclass DM/girlfriend) to solve this problem?

Talk to him OOC. Explain the situation. Explain that people aren't having fun. Ask him to tone it down a bit, make a new character, etc, without getting angry or emotional about it. Hope that helps :-) --Ghostwheel 13:05, 1 September 2009 (MDT)

DM and girlfriend. Well, then you have it easier than most DMs. Just cut him off. Then he'll come to the table with whatever character you want. ;) Hooper talk contribs email 06:34, 2 September 2009 (MDT)

That is damn dirty pool, sir. I like it. Atypicaloracle 19:12, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

[edit] sarrukhs

the only really good question about this thing is: why are there no sarrukhs who have thought of this??? and, by the way, from what book are the sarrukhs? cant find the in monster manual Hijax 08:50, 8 August 2008 (MDT)

Sarrukh's cannot use Manipulate Form on themselves. They're in Serpent Kingdoms. --TK-Squared 08:38, 12 September 2008 (MDT)

why? is it just stated that they cant do it on themselves? dont hey qualifi as scaled ones? dont it work on sarrukhs? Hijax 08:22, 3 January 2009 (MST)

It's specifically disallowed in the ability. Wizards of the Coast may not do much editorial oversight, but at least they can cover the blindingly obvious loopholes. TheMadLinguist

To explain the obvious more, sarrukh are specifically listed as being immune to their own ability. Both so they can't grant themselves retarded abilities, but also so that a clever wizard doesn't turn into a sarrukh and modify the sarrukh into not having the ability to modify the party any more. Atypicaloracle 19:15, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

[edit] Pun-Pun at Level 1

Pun-Pun is available at level 1.

Pun-Pun, Ardent 1, 1 flaw

4 ranks in Knowledge (religion) Trait: Absent-Minded (+1) Trait: Specialized (Knowledge [Religion) (+1) Psicrystal Affinity (Sage) (+3) Call to Mind (+4) 20 Intelligence (17 base + 3 from venerable)... (+5) Mantle Power: Knowledge (+5) Mantle Power: Fate (+1) Psicrystal: Aid Another (+2)

4+1+1+3+4+5+5+1+2 = 26.

1. Makes the DC 25 knowledge check (even on a natural 1, since natural 1s aren't failures as a knowledge check), learning about Pazazu.

2. Say Pazazu's name 3 times, ask for a ring of 3 wishes.

3. Retrain Skill Focus to Assume Supernatural Ability. The premise is that, Wish allows you to mimic any spell 8th or lower, and you can mimic Polymorph. Therefore, you've the ability to assume a new form magically.

4. Wish > Polymorph Any Object: Psicrystal into a viper.

5. Wish > Polymorph yourself into a sarrukh. Grant Manipulate Form to your psicrystal...

6. Proceed with Pun-Pun.

This requires the following books:

   XPH 
   CPsi
   UA - 2 traits , 1 flaw
   Savage Species
   Eberron - education feat
   FC1 - Pazuzu
   Serpent Kingdom - Sarruhk

[edit] temporal distillation

the above mentioned Su is from the zerth cenobite and grants the user and his psicrystal one extra turn. That should be able to give pun-pun as much time as he needs

== Or a more general (and fast) first level strategy Build: anything that can get a + 14 bonus to knowledge (the planes/religion) at level one so you can take ten to know about Pazuzu on a one (DC 25 knowledge check). One example is Skill focus (+3) four ranks (+4) Masterwork tool (+2) 20 in intelligence (from race or age benefits) (+5)

1. Say Pazuzu three times. (being a paladin gets extra bonus points here - Pazuzu goes out of his way to "help" paladins, and makes sure that the 'first' wish doesn't cause evil)

2. Wish for a Lawful Evil candle of invocation

3. Use the candle to call an efreet

4. Wish one: plane shift for you both to the far realms. No more time is spend on the material plane - far realms time moves at an effective ratio of 1:0.

5. Wish two: A pony. Or anything else you like. Maybe you give the efreet something nice, and ask him kindly to forget all this. Or some kind of ritual, or a buff if you can't make the Sarruhk knowledge check. Or something to help you survive the far realms. Whatever.

6. Wish three: another candle of invocation.

7. Use the candle of invocation to gate in a Sarruhk. As per the spell, it has to obey you. Start ordering abilities

8. Get the manipulate form (ex) 9. Get the singular enemy ability of the Aleax, with the enemy being yourself 10. Get immunity to unconsciousness. 11. You are now completely unstoppable.

Problem: The Far Realms explicitly have toxic laws of physics. Plane shifting there, even if it can be done, would kill pre-ascension Pun-Pun instantly.--173.245.52.106 23:19, 16 July 2012 (MDT)

[edit] Alternate First Level Trick

Discussion moved from User talk:Green Dragon/Archive 18#3.5e Optimized Character Build Pun-Pun. --Green Dragon 16:11, 30 December 2010 (MST)

Aristocrat 1 (race independent) Feat 1: Magical training (player's guide to faerun) Feat 2: Precocious Apprentice: Summon Mirror Mephit (Expedition to the Demonweb Pits) Starting gold goes into purchasing a single vial of liquid pain.

Rounds 1->a Attempt to cast Summon Mirror Mephit until you can make the check. Optimization could allow this to autosucceed the first round, but it isn't needed Round b: toss your mirror mephit a vial of liquid pain, and have him use it with his spell-like Simulacrum ability As per the monster manual (which supercedes the SRD), a spell-like ability defaults to a standard action. With the vial, we have CL 9, sufficient to duplicate a 18 HD advanced efreeti (simulacrum is allowed to duplicate specific creatures). Divide the level by two, and we have a 9HD copy. Which is just as many hit dice as a normal efreet. Order the mirror mephit to order the efreeti to obey you completely before he vanishes.

You now have three free wishes. Start from step 4 of the above streategy.

The mirror mephit has 8th level for the caster level for simulacrum.

Did the liquid pain use as optional material component to improve the caster level by + 2 ?

But simulacrum is a spell like ability, not a spell. Or use an other rule ? If yes, what page from book of evil darkness, please ?

The normal efreet has 10 HD, not 9. So, the caster level required is 10th level, no ?

Why do you choose aristocrast as class ? For the skills ? The starting money to buy liquid pain ?

Thanks for your future anwser. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Waldham (talk • contribs) 14:10, 28 January 2010 (UTC). Please sign your posts!

Once again, I fail to see the point in all this. Someone's misusing the rules for sure. Why not just be Pun-pun? -- Danzig 19:20, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Oh wait, this IS Pun-pun. Listen, feedback loops are not supposed to work. Maybe as a glitch in video games, but in D&D, no. -- Danzig 19:23, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

[edit] Spells to Spell-Like Abilities?

To get the ability increse, Pun-Pun must grant itself the Wu-Jen spell Giant Size and make it at will. How does it do this? Can he grant himself any spell as a spell-like ability or did he get it from copying the special attack or special quality of some class or creature? Same question about how often he could use it, could he make any thing that he copied from another monster, such as a Geriviar's telekinesis which is usable three times as day, and make it at will or would he have to use it as written in the monster stat block?

A third question is can Pun-Pun grant himself class levels? As some feats or saliant divine abilities can only be taken if you are of a certain level in a certain class.

And in the Manipulate Form and Extreme Cheese section it says that the shadow seed can be used to replicate any spell or person but the shadow seed isn't in the Epic Level Handbook, so in which book is it in? -- Michael 15:48, 1 Dec 2009

You really aren't understanding the ability. Partially that's because it's an inefficient old build. Anyway, manipulate form allows you to change size directly, without needing to duplicate a form. I think shadow seed is in one of the forgotten realms books... TheMadLinguist 07:31, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

[edit] Different Build

Man, this is crazy. I came up with pretty much the same idea last year when I finally got Serpent Kingdoms. What I did was get the Tainted One template from Savage Species applied to my 7th-level psion (telepath) which, according to SK, makes him qualify as a Scaled One. Then, I arranged a lengthy search for a mage powerful enough to find and capture a sarrukh. Lastly, after we had found a mage and had him imprison a sarrukh, I used several applications of implanted suggestion (because of the higher DC) until the bastard was tricked into giving my character the manipulate form ability. Since our DM was both (somewhat) new to the game and certainly quite unfamiliar with how the ability works, it wasn't too hard to convince him to let me get away with it. I haven't used it for anything yet, but sooner or later, I'ma go Matrix on some fools. Joker 20:47, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

You should add it here as another optimization. --Green Dragon 00:17, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Ehh, that would be kind of pointless. It would basically say: "Use the same info on the Pun-Pun page except for a different base character model." Not worth the effort, really, and it would be a waste of space. Joker 16:03, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

[edit] IP Comment

Comment left in the Manipulate Form section by IP: [EDIT by unregistered user: <-- this is incorrect. The actual text (in Forgotten Realms--Serpent Kingdoms) allows only extraordinary abilities!! If this has any impact on the rest of this build, let that be noted] —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 173.164.136.93 (talk • contribs) . Please sign your posts!

[edit] Flaw

Ummm.... what happens when your familiar decides that he wants to kill you? If your familiar has all the abilities you do... even if he can't, then your familiar could decide not to help you any more. Either way, your screwed!--Vrail 23:11, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

This is not a flaw. Assuming, as any optimization does, a static non-make-rubbish-up DM, that the build works perfectly. A familiar is permanently loyal to you. --TK-Squared 12:12, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

True, but that is under normal circumstances and I think we can all agree a pun pun is NOT NORMAL! As a DM I try to allow everything the player wants to do if it follows the rules of the books and my setting. So I need a way to screw over my player if he tries this. :P--Vrail 16:58, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

well your familiar has half your hit points, so you should be able to take it out no prob, and whats next? your psicrystal slits your throat? your elephant animal companion sits on you in your sleep suffocating you? those are just as ridiculous. but your familiar is the one thing pretty much guaranteed to be loyal to you. and as dm, don't let them be pun-pun--Name Violation 17:20, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

If you want to stop your player from going super saiyan, the solution is simple. Kill the familiar before the familiar has the chance to buff the master with manipulate form. Players will likely whine, and as a DM aiming directly at a familiar who has yet to do anything in the encounter is a real dick move; however, it'll stop the Pun Pun train. A flat-footed viper likely won't stand up to a volley of arrows or a 6th level fireball. However, I agree with NV, Pun-Pun is more of a thought experiment, never meant to be played in a game. --Badger 17:39, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

[edit] Pun Pun vs another Pun Pun

What would happen if one Pun Pun fought a different Pun Pun? Since both of them have essentially world-shattering levels of power, would this pretty much bring about the Apocalypse, or...? PokeDM 15:53, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

That is just about the one case when it matter exactly how high all of Pun-Puns "Nigh-Infinite" stats are. If one Pun-Pun knows about the other Pun-Pun and can get some vague idea of how powerful he is, he could get all his NI abilities to be 10x higher than those of the other Pun-Pun and find some way to get around at least one of his immunities, and kill him. If they just spontaneously encountered each other... I think they'd be essentially immune to one another's attacks. If both knew about the other and were preparing, then... it would get pretty crazy. I think it would basically come down to ingenuity in finding the best overpowered buffs. Also, see my idea regarding Split, below. --24.147.186.88 20:32, 23 February 2011 (MST)

[edit] Another Way for Infinite Reach

Since Pun-Pun has Manipulate Form, all he would need to do is give himself the Morphic Reach ability of the Warshaper (see Complete Warrior) and repeatedly take Extended Reach (see Savage Species) infinitely. Now, Pun-Pun can continue stretching his arms simply by using Energy Charge and Extended Reach. PokeDM 00:47, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

[edit] Split Ability- Pun-Pun ARMY

I noticed the Split ability being mentioned off-hand in regards to Pun-Pun's immunity to damage. Has anyone considered the implications of using this ability just by itself? The Black Pudding's Split ability, which I'm fairly sure is typical, works as follows: "Slashing and piercing weapons deal no damage to a black pudding. Instead the creature splits into two identical puddings, each with half of the original’s current hit points (round down)." So Pun-Pun could grant himself and his familiar this ability, they'd each attack each other until there are two of them. Repeat, with the numbers rising exponentially until there are NI Pun-Pun/Familiar pairs. The obvious issue is that they might turn on each other, and would be something of a weird question given that Pun-Pun is (presumably) a player character, but that's easily remedied by having him and his familiar first grant each other the Hive Mind ability, but with infinite range extending across planar boundaries and everything- basically always working regardless of where the Pun-Puns are. Then, among other things, he could spread out across everywhere, and even if someone was strong enough to defeat him the rest of the the Hims would know about this person, prepare for them, and track them down and kill them. Oddly enough though, this ability actually seems like it would be far more potent in the hands of someone whose capabilities actually have limits, if they could find a way to get around the hit-point issue. Also: I just realized you literally could have a Pun-Pun SWARM. All the Pun-Puns could Polymorph into some creature which exists in swarms- locusts, for example, or hellwasps- and form a swarm. So you'd have THOUSANDS of Pun-Puns... uh... swarming. They could, among other things, use thousands of spell-like abilities per round, of whatever spells they wanted. Thankfully no DM would have to homebrew a stat block for it's actions, since Pun-Pun's player would control ALL OF THEM. --24.147.186.88 20:49, 23 February 2011 (MST)

[edit] How does this part work?

[Quote]Pun-Pun grants himself the Wu-Jen spell Giant Size as a spell-like ability at-will.[/quote]
How does Pun-Pun do this? I assume its because Manipulate Form "may also grant the target an extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like ability," but does it really say it can grant the target a spell as a spell-like ability? Is the caster required to know the spell to grant the spell-like ability? I really don't understand how Pun-Pun has the ability to grant himself this ability, but if someone can explain that to me then I will love Pun-Pun (and try to make him if I can ever find a group of people to play D&D with *evil grin*). 76.204.147.162 00:31, 9 April 2011 (MDT)

Well, technically, what Pun-Pun grants himself is a spell-like ability which resembles the Wu-Jen spell Giant Size, but the short way of saying this is "the Wu-Jen spell Giant Size as a spell-like ability at-will". And yes, he can grant himself any spell he likes as a spell-like ability, since it's not stated otherwise and that is in fact presumably how it was intended- the Sarrukh probably don't have natural spellcasting, and even if they do, they certainly don't "know" enough extraordinary of supernatural abilities for that to make much of a difference, and presumably spell-like abilities are the same way (they can grant any spells). --173.245.56.203 20:27, 31 December 2011 (MST)

[edit] Major Flaw

RAI completely tears this build to shreds.

Well, duh. The entire point of the build, though, is to demonstrate how poorly written the involved exploits are. That's not really a flaw in the build itself though.