Talk:Kelir Shaythan (3.5e Template)

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Seems a Little Too Good[edit]

Giving the undead type is already really, really good by itself (the necropolitan, for example, has to lose a level to get it). Giving an additional +2 turn resistance and +2 charisma just pushes it way beyond possible LA+0 (even though LA is a dumb concept). I'd remove both of those things. Surgo 16:40, 9 March 2009 (MDT)

Weaknesses for PCs vs Weaknesses for Monsters[edit]

I have to say, I really like the idea of one of the three ritual Fae dying causes a loss of 1/3rd hit points, all three killing the templated creature. That's a pretty neat idea, and can create a lot of interesting adventures. The problem I have with it is that it's not really a weakness that can be exploited in combat time, so I don't really think it's a measure that effects the balance of the template at all. To use another example, liches don't really get any extra points for having the weakness that their phylactery can be found and destroyed because that's seriously a story weakness, not a real and exploitable one.

For that reason I'd suggest modification of the template a bit. Instead of losing 1/3rd HP when one of the Fae dies, I'd suggest having nothing lost at all (making it a bit more manageable of a flavor weakness for PCs, who can and will really feel that the DM "has it out for them" or something like that if they take advantage of the weakness). Keep the bit where the creature dies if all three Fae are destroyed -- that's the interesting part. I say that's the interesting part and not the idea that you can target the original Fae to make your BBEG "weaker" like Ash Vampires to Dagoth Ur because Hit Points don't actually mean a whole lot and losing a third of them is not really going to impact a BBEG Kelir Shaythan's power so heavily. The need to protect the original Fae is the interesting part anyway.

For that reason I think the template is still just a bit too strong. Why is that +2 charisma there? It seems pretty out-of-place and removing it would make the template pretty much in-line with things like Necropolitan (an extremely powerful template to begin with). Right now you're better off because light dazzling means almost nothing (and the fae weakness is an unquantifiable flavor weakness), you're getting extra charisma out of the deal, AND you lose far less XP than Necropolitans do. There's really no reason to ever take Necropolitan over this one.

So I'd make the following suggestions:

  • Remove the +2 charisma.
  • Modify the story weakness so you don't lose 1/3rd HP (so players don't feel like DMs are targeting them when they make an adventure out of the story weakness).
  • Then either remove Light Blindedness, or add +2 Turn Resistance.

So, yeah, my thoughts on making this better. Right now it's definitely better than Necropolitan, an extremely strong template to begin with. It should be about even. Surgo 14:40, 14 March 2009 (MDT)

Why not giving a -2 to Wisdom? It would balance out the Cha bonus. Just a thought.--Lord Dhazriel 14:45, 14 March 2009 (MDT)
Maybe, but why does the template have to give out any statistical enhancements or penalties at all? Making you undead, with all the immunities that brings, really is good enough. Surgo 14:47, 14 March 2009 (MDT)
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