Talk:Hashshashin (3.5e Class)
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Would some please rate this then tell me what needs fixing to get it up to 5/5 on everything. Thanks. ShadowyFigure 04:23, 14 March 2008 (MDT)
- As for formatting:
- Capitalization: This is universally an issue with almost every article on this site. Class names like fighter, assassin, and hashshashin are not capitalized every single time. Only when they're in headings, titles, and used as a proper noun (e.g. "Hey, you! Fighter, let's see your combat skills"). The same goes for class features, races, and anything else in the list of "The following should always follow the same rules for capitalization..." on the standards page. "Of" and "the" in "Tricks of the Trade" should not be capitalized. The same goes for other prepositions ("at," "among," "between," "around," "beyond," etc...), articles ("a," and "an"), and conjunctions ("and," "but," "or," "nor," etc...). The only time those words are capitalized is when they're the first word in a title, heading, sentence, or proper noun (phrase). Conversely, "Fortitude," "Reflex," and "Will," (in the context of saving throws only) are always capitalized. Most instances are capitalized, but there's a few here and there that aren't. Don't ask me why WotC capitalizes them (and feat names and skill names), but they set the standard.
- Subsets of class features: Specifically "Tricks of the Trade." These follow should have the same format as the rogue's special abilities.
- Epic section is missing epic bonus feats.
- Starting age should be either one of the following "simple," "complex," or "moderate" or is should refer to a class with the same starting age such as "as fighter."
- —Sledged (talk) 10:21, 20 March 2008 (MDT)
- Hrm. I always thought races should use capitals. Of course, when I actually stop and think about that idea now I don't know why I even thought it had merit. Time for me to go correcting all my crap... --Aarnott 11:59, 20 March 2008 (MDT)
- Also, this needs a lot more links to the SRD to be present. --Green Dragon 23:08, 23 March 2008 (MDT)
- Thats what I thought... but they were actually people... What were thinking "lets call ouur threlve hashshashinths..." ShadowyFigure 14:20, 19 March 2008
- Ah, yes, the "hashish eaters". --Finfreeze 14:34, 19 March 2008 (MDT)
- I believe I've nearly finished part from an NPC... I think I may need a more hashshashinny name though... ShadowyFigure 14:38, 19 March 2008 (MDT)
- Hashashinny. LOL. --Gedren56 14:35, 16 February 2009 (MST)
- "Hashshashin" is an arabic word where the word "assassin" is believe to be derived from, alternative spellings include "Hashahasheen," "Hashashyyin," abd simple "Hassassin" --The Russian 11:14, 26 May 2010 (EST)
Featured Article Nominee
Please feel free to re-nominate it once it meets the FA criteria and when all the major issues brought up in this nomination have been dealt with.
I believe this class has the potential to be a featured article as I think I have done a preatty good Video game to D20 conversion In mechanics and flavor. I mean it is nearlly almost impossible to the exact flavor as I'd like to have it widely useble across all Campaign Settings. However IMHO it only has the potential and I'd like to get it to the Feature Article Standard. ShadowyFigure 12:36, 25 March 2008 (MDT)
Oppose — This is not ready yet for FA status. A lot needs to be fixed and changed, also I feel this should be rated and then put up for nomination. Anyway the quotes needs |src and |orig. The RATE ME!!! should be changed the something more professional. The image should, in my opinion, be moved beneath the header of the infobox. Capitalization issues need to be looked at, including standard grammar as well as strange D&D changes (e.g. Tricks Of The Trade should the Tricks of the Trade). Many many more links need to be present, not only to the SRD but also to the class features. An example NPC needs to be present. --Green Dragon 01:47, 26 March 2008 (MDT)
- Thank you! Now I know what to do exactly. And I have changed Tricks Of The Trade to Tricks of the Trade... And what exactly did you mean about the image. ShadowyFigure 09:59, 26 March 2008 (MDT)
- I got it for you. --Green Dragon 11:16, 26 March 2008 (MDT)
- Awesome, thanks. ShadowyFigure 12:45, 26 March 2008 (MDT)
- Have a look at Sam's Spider Rider (DnD Prestige Class) (as I'm sure you already have ;)) it should give you an idea about the what should be linked where. Love the picture by the way where did you find it? I'll admit I haven't read through this article yet been mighty busy I'll post a comment once i've gotten a chance to read it properly. --Hawk 07:32, 28 March 2008 (MDT)
Comment — This needs an example NPC. --Green Dragon 12:57, 29 March 2008 (MDT)
- I can never get the hang of the stat blocks so if someone is willing to help me with the NPC that would be great. ShadowyFigure 04:26, 30 March 2008 (MDT)
- If you make a character sheet for the NPC, I'll put it into an NPC stat block for you. --Sam Kay 11:54, 30 March 2008 (MDT)
- Thanks I'll give it to you sometime next week. ShadowyFigure 12:06, 30 March 2008 (MDT)
My personal thoughts
There are two things that I find missing from this class. For one, I figure that the loss of one of your fingers would make somatic components for spells a bit harder to perform, so anyone with a level in the Hashshashin class should have an arcane spell failure chance (albeit a small one.) Secondly, you ever notice how Altair never actually fails to jump? In game he never fails a proverbial jump, tumble, or balance check. Good thing he doesn't, 'cause all the bonuses to these skills in the world won't do shit if you land a natural 1, and it ain't exactly very efficient to one shot kill someone and then try and run up a building only to fall on your ass with 9 guards chasing you. You should give him the ability to take 10 on these checks. Thirdly, this class sounds like Sean Connery is trying to say the word assassin.
I am not sure if I am supposed to write my own personal thoughts below his, however I wonder, have you done research to the actual hashashin? Their ways of recruiting were frowned upon, at least if you believe the myths, though they aren't much different from the ways of recruiting in the middle east nowadays. Having said that, I say, this is a nice class, though I myself abhor assassins and their ilk, mostly because most people who find such classes nice think it is cool to kill stealthy and sneaky...such people have a disturbing feature to appear in shooter games on the internet being snipers, which are rather annoying. But for an assassin this is a very nicely made class. (wuffy)
Power - 3/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 because the assassin (as in the Assassin's Creed game) are tailored more for the dextrous than the strong as is the case with this build. --Shar_The_Grand
Wording - 4/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 because the author presented a very detailed summation of the class and its overall abilities. --Shar_The_Grand
Formatting - 4/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 because though it was formatted almost perfectly it still lacked in some areas. However, this is due in part, in my opinion, to the vast access granted by the Wiki and possible hack-editing. --Shar_The_Grand
Flavor - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because as a fan of the Assassin's Creed series, I have been looking for a detailed and well-balanced build of the assassin presented in the series. As a DM, I have also been looking for a good variant of the assassin presented in the core books. --Shar_The_Grand
This may be just my opinion, but I have never liked the so called "death attack" class feature. In practice, the likelihood of anybody actually using this feature is not high, especially for a member of a class such as this. I would personally suggest removing this feature all together, replacing it with a modifier on massive damage DC's. This is due to the fact that average massive damage, combined with the feats that are out there for sneak attack, is more than sufficient to keep the flavor of this class. this also plays closer to the source material for this class, as in AC and AC2, the main character rarely had time to actually study his target, but was more inclined to crowd blend and hit suddenly with a sneak attack, then disappear again, ideally without being noticed before getting far enough away.
While I admit that the "Death attack" has long been seen as the hallmark of the assassin archetype, the feature itself is really overly complicated for what it does. When one considers that the typical NPC character does not have a very good con score, the "Death attack" is basically overpowered at the same as being completely redundant. the base DC 15 for massive damage is moderately difficult for any but a front liner with a good fort save, and is still hard for them until high levels. simply modifying that DC to add 25% to 50% of the class level to the DC for the massive damage save is, in my opinion, more than enough for most circumstances. Granted, getting above the magic number of 50 damage can be difficult sometimes, but it is not as hard as it sounds. a mere 14 STR with a medium sized hidden blade at 19th level and with a +5 hidden blade with the collision special ability will do 50 damage on an average sneak attack. This is, of course not assuming that you score a critical hit. combined with feinting and other feats and abilities, this can be done earlier, say around 10th level, but it is far more difficult, given the lack of overall sneak attack dice. One would need to assure that deadly precision was on the weapon as well, and possibly take the Assassin's Stance Martial Stance from Tome of Battle to make this work at earlier levels, but it is possible to reach the damage levels required by as early as 10th to 12th level for massive damage to become commonplace, without resorting to the almost useless "Death attack" class feature.
This is, of course, assuming that character design is done well, and no extensive multi-classing happens. with proper design, a character as the class is currently written, by 10th to 12th level, assuming average equipment and proper feats and abilities on the weapon, is simply using their "death attack" to force a second saving throw for the same attack. If you are going to do that, you might as well use poison on the weapon, as it does the same thing, but also forces the target to possible lower their massive damage save due to ability damage from the poison. ~Breaniver, Feb 8th, 8:51 PM MST
- "Rarely had time to study?" I don't recall ever rushing into the place a target was and trying to assassinate them High Profile to ever work very well. At least 90% of the time you have some sort of time to plan out a strategy to both get in and get out quickly. The assassination in AC1 where you try to prevent fellow Brothers from being hung is the best example. You COULD rush up, clamber up the stage, fight a few guards on the way up and attempt to get an assassination in, but it was sloppy and, frankly, breaks the Second Tenet. It was not only easier to head off to the side where no one was, leap a few beams, and come swooping down like the Eagle the protagonists are modeled after, then dash out the other side with all those guards chasing you (as opposed to being in direct combat with them from the beginning.) To say that an assassin never thinks carefully about his assassination plans is rather backwards. His life, the life of the people he fights for, and the life of his target (ironically) all hang in the balance of how the assassin does his job. It's not supposed to be, "I'm going to sit here in this shadow and in 18 seconds burst out, shank him, and run." The study time is supposed to be about making a solid, cohesive plan that doesn't end with the assassin fighting eighteen guards on his way out.
- And most people complain about how difficult it is to get a Death Attack. If you're assassinating an NPC with so little hit points, you have a few much better options for assassinating them, such as a +1 Bow of Distance and Manyshot, perhaps even Farshot if you want to get a larger leeway for escape. Even with your idea the Sneak Attack damage would probably kill such targets if your version of Death Attack didn't. Therefore it's not fixing a problem, so much as it is changing how the problem works. Not to mention that if it modifies Massive Damage, all it really does is allow an Assassin to score a Death Attack by Feigning an enemy in combat and then going in for the kill. What you essentially do is allow Death Attacks every round, which is another reason why the 3 Round wait period exists. Death Attack, I'd presume, is supposed to be about taking out higher profile targets that you would otherwise have problems killing. The problem, however, is that the DC is often too low and such targets can make it easily. That's why the Hidden Blade increases the DC, along with Murder Bracers and the Hashshashin equivalent of a Monk's Belt I've designed but have yet to write down. Jack of Sticks 21:14, 8 February 2011 (MST)
My Own Thoughts
Good work, but there is still work to be done. First off, I agree with Wuffy's first paragraph, however the Hashshashin no longer remove their fingers, as seen in AC2. Instead, perhaps you could make it two separate items. One, a piece of equipment with a -4 Attack Penalty, see why below. Or, two, a piece of equipment that requires the removal of a finger, but lessens the penalty to -2, and costs three times as much. (Removal of the finger could be, mechanically, -1 hit point or 5% ASF.)
Yes, I called it OP. Why? "The Hashshashin may instead gain a bonus feat from he following list (she may ignore the prerequisites that involve having levels in the fighter class but must meet all other prerequisites" So, all of the sudden the Fighter class is near-worthless, because this class gives several Monk Abilities, Death Attack, Sneak Attack, and various other good abilities in order to replace the benefit of Fighter Bonus Feats. And in fact, you could use Tricks of the Trade AS Bonus Feats, although fewer in number.
So, basically it makes this class BETTER than Fighter in many ways. The only draw backs are 6 BF instead of 11 (but also see my last paragraph), a lower BAB Progression (one step), and a lower HD (also one step.) Nix this little feature, or tone it down, and it would fit better. Perhaps every two Hashshashin levels counts as 1 Figher level for the purpose of gaining those particular Feats, or maybe do (Hashshashin Levels) -6 = (Effective Fighter Levels), perhaps.
There's no mention of poison anywhere here. Even Assassin and Ninja get Poison Use. I would, however, step it up and add a feat that allows one to add 1 to the DC of a poison for every 2 levels. (This could be a General Feat; not just one that is aimed towards this class.)
The Slow Fall is a nice trait, but it's unfitting for an AC Assassin (I'm getting tired of typing 'Hashshashin,' and this will be the last time I do so.) In game, the Assassins can drop from any distance as long as they can catch a part of the wall near them. This is not the same as slowing their decent. There would be two different times this emulated feature would work:
1. Leaping a gap and grabbing a wall on the other side. 2. Dropping from a wall the Assassin is climbing and grabbing the same wall, and doing this repeatedly to get down a building faster than simply climbing down.
I believe this is best emulated through simple Climb and/or Jump checks, which the AC Assassin already has bonuses to. I say this because, in game, if one were to use the latter method listed above, it doesn't end at a set height before you fall to (presumably) your death.
As well, the Speed Climb ability is flawed. Many times, in game, do you run up the side of a wall to grab a hold of something to climb the rest of the wall with. With RAW, you wouldn't be able to do that; you would fall immediately, taking falling damage equal to as much as 9d6, and even higher. My suggestion? Give the AC Assassin a +5 towards Climb, specifically to counteract the Accelerated Climbing feature of the Climb skill.
Death Attack also has me worried in many ways. AC Assassin gains it at 4; DMG Assassin gains it at CL 6 at the earliest, and can use it better than the AC Assassin can all the way up until 20th level, where they equal. This is all well and good, however I believe the wait period does not decrease very well, and the gap between finishing Study and the actual Attack is too small.
At the very least, I would suggest moving Death Attack to around level 8 and progressing the time periods faster. Perhaps instead, make it 6(1) at CL 8, 5(1) at CL 10, 4(2) at CL 12, 5(2) at CL 14, 4(2) at CL 16, and 3(3) at CL 18. If not, perhaps there could, instead, be a Feat that alters Death attack by -3(+1).
Alignment's all screwy. First off, the Alignment section states you only have to be Lawful, while everything after that states you must be Good. Remember that in D&D Good and Evil SPECIFICALLY refer to the character's stance on killing. Good characters try their best not to kill except if it is the only way, while Evil characters don't care and may in fact kill for fun.
The PHB states, "Good implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings." As an Assassin, this cannot be, and is the reason why the DMG Assassin has to be Any Evil, which the PHB states, "Evil implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient." An Assassin kills because 'it is necessary' in their eyes, thus not making them "Evil" in our terms, but it does make them at least Neutral in D&D terms.
It is in fact their Creed, their laws that dictate the protection of innocents and such, that makes the Assassins different from, say, a serial killer. They kill for a purpose, but they still kill. It is with this in mind that I suggest sticking with "Any Lawful Non-Evil" as opposed to the Lawful Good restriction implied by the rest of the sheet. Also keep in mind that there is no code against theft, even from the people. In AC2, you gain the Guard's attention by pickpocketing anyone from the beggars to the guards themselves, but you never lose Sync, as you do when you kill an Innocent.
Hide in Plain Sight: Natural Terrain? How many times in either AC game are you in anything but a city? Not very often, and when so not very long. And you don't hide in bushes or tall grass; you hide among people or within shadows. It is with this in mind that I suggest changing it to the DMG Assassin's ability to "use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as he is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, an assassin can hide himself from view in the open without having anything to actually hide behind. He cannot, however, hide in his own shadow."
I took a look at the Hidden Blade equipment item, and it makes me wonder, "If the AC Assassin's only assassinate with these, why give them the ability to assassinate with anything else? As well, because of that fact, and the fact no one would assassinate anyone with a falchion, if the Hidden Blade can Death Attack without needing any Prep Time, why give the class itself that ability at all? That would reduce cheese outright.
Would be best to give the class Proficiency with all Simple Weapons, given the myriad of weapons you can use in AC2. Make a new Throwing Dagger item specifically for the AC Assassin with a range increment of 30 feet, but only deals 1 damage. In game, you can throw knifes much more accurately than normal Knifes would allow. Of course, the class would also need Quick Draw and the Hidden Blade Skill Trick in order to facilitate the necessary conditions for sneak attacking with said daggers, which I believe is how to best emulate the amount of damage they deal in game (i.e. killing unaware targets in one attack.)
Smoke Bombs are also another item I believe they should have. You could have Smoke Bombs that are just pearls with a spell inside. Maybe the Assassin can craft pearls themselves for half cost at level 6. They could have Obscuring Mist, Fog Cloud, Stinking Cloud, Solid Fog, Cloudkill, Acid Fog, and Assassin's Darkness. (Or if you'd prefer to stick to items solely from the games, just Fog Cloud and Assassin's Darkness in Lesser and Greater varieties.
Counter Attack scares me, as most creatures you would be Counter Attacking will never have more than a +5 to any stat, for an average of a DC 20, yet you add both Dex AND Ref to your roll against it, which could easily match and overcome the DC by level 1, assuming a +4 modifier. Perhaps instead you could change it to "If a target misses the Assassin and does not beat the Assassin's Touch AC, the Assassin gets a +4 Attack bonus on said target on the Assassin's next action. This may only be used while on the Defensive, but if taken twice it may be used any time, though it will only give a +2 bonus. If the Hashshashin's Counter Attack misses, she suffers a -4 AC Penalty and leaves her Defensive Stance."
This allows the ability to be used more often, which is good for the player, and also keeps undoubtedly high Reflex saves from being a practically free dodge. It also gives a more strategic feel to the class. "Should I use this Counter Strike, or am I in too large a pickle to risk it?"
For magic items, there could be 'Blade of the Eagle,' which would be Altair's Sword but with a name that fits into D&D campaigns better. I would suggest a +2 Keen Obsidium Falcion that gives Smite Chaos or Evil 3/day, using Cha + Level. --Jack of Sticks 04:50, 7 February 2011 (MST)
- I've made a drastic overhaul of the class in total, as well as to the Hidden Blade. Changes include various typo fixes, to expanding on lore, fixing the Creed section, and adding a few late level abilities to encourage players to stick with the class throughout all 20 levels. (Basically, the anti-thesis of Monk.) Will be adding new items later, such as 'Smoke Bombs' which are basically one-shot Use-Activated Obscuring Mist spells in a crushable pearl, and a Hidden Gun attachment to the Hidden Blade. --Jack of Sticks 12:35, 8 February 2011 (MST)
Power - 1/5 I give this class a 1 out of 5 because It is clearly too much powerful. The author simply put together Assassin, Rogue and Monk classes advantages alltogether, except you only need 20 levels to get them all instead of 50, plus some benefits from the videogame which are plainly ridiculous. It needs a serious balance. For instance, the only "Nothing is True" class ability would require a level 25-ish wizard with plenty of metamagic feats and metamagic cost reductions feats to reproduce the same effects, while you get this at level 4. Try to keep in mind the balance in Assassin's creed is not the same as the balance in D&D. --188.8.131.52 20:03, 6 December 2011 (MST)
Wording - 4/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 because it is overall well worded, pleasantly written. --184.108.40.206 20:03, 6 December 2011 (MST)
Formatting - 4/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 because I believe the format is clear, simple, everything is acceptable EXCEPT that you cannot use sneak attack if you are lawful, which compeltly fucks up this class. --220.127.116.11 20:03, 6 December 2011 (MST)
Flavor - 4/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 because it's from a popular video game, "Assassin's creed". Many people will like to play this class. --18.104.22.168 20:03, 6 December 2011 (MST)
- I, the (second) author, have to disagree with your Power rating. It is powerful, yes, but not absurdly so. It's built on more of a Pathfinder scale than a PHB 3.5 level, and you must keep in mind the difference between this class and a tier 1 or 2 class. Anyway, if you've heard of the Ninja class from Complete Adventurer, you'll notice that they're extremely similar in terms of core mechanics. Ninja has Ki Powers to turn invisible, incorporeal, and the like. 'Sha gets a Death Attack that initially takes a whole minute to 'charge' and has a single round of usable time, at level 4. Some of the abilities between then and the Capstone are small bonuses that characters in most games wouldn't need, like bonuses to Jump. (By then, you'd have Fly spells.) Or very situational, such as Blessed.
- Nothing is True is... written wrong. It's basically supposed to simply stop time, but I've recently found out that my vision of it isn't quite how it works. Still, a simple sentence or two will fix it. Once the Time Stop issue is fixed, the rest of it is basically fluff and a tiny bonus to movement speed for a tiny amount of time. "[Y]ou cannot use sneak attack if you are lawful" sounds like a house rule, since it's not in the SRD, anywhere. Jack of Sticks (talk)
Power - 4/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 because the class is well thought out and many of the abilities make sense as to why they exist even the creation of the hidden blade and some of the new powers are appropriate and not overpowered. Some of the abilities don't seem like they are as powerful AS they should be, the feel of this class is a bit under powered depending on location that player puts this character in. --Misfits 02:16, 7 December 2011 (MST)
Wording - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because the wording leaves little or no debate as to the meaning for newly created skills and draws upon reasonable skills from other classes that fit this one well. I wouldn't change a thing. --Misfits 02:16, 7 December 2011 (MST)
Formatting - 4/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 because the class is well typed and information is clear and easy to process the emphasis and explanations are well done as well and inform the player exactly what they need to know. A bit more formatting to improve appearance would make this a 5. --Misfits 02:16, 7 December 2011 (MST)
Flavor - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because the design is wonderful the research taken upon the class was all accurate and I did my own check of the information, the locations and the history were properly provided and dated. The class has a defined purpose that is clear from the makeup of the character and suits playing in most games. --Misfits 02:16, 7 December 2011 (MST)
This class is ridiculously overpowered. Can we acknowledge that this class has all of the benefits of being a rogue, with a d8 hit die, the ability to add it's intelligence to an honestly disgusting number of skills, an intrinsic AC bonus and increased movespeed? Furthermore, the numerous class abilities, such as the zone of truth and the death attacks, are gotten at incredibly early levels. Even leaving this class is overpowered, as you can level this class up to eleven and simply swap out all your abilities to become a tenth level assassin. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 22.214.171.124 (talk • contribs) . Please sign your posts!
- Hi, Ninja class. How do you like your sneak attack damage, Wisdom to AC, and 'ethereal jaunt' abilities? Oh, sorry, I need to go talk to this Blackguard about his clearly overpowered Paladin levels. ;) Nothing is True is nowhere as powerful as you're making it out to be, either. -shrug- Jack of Sticks (talk)
Power - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because I gave this rating, one, because I love assassins, and two, because I created a player character, under the name of Altaïr Ibn-La'Ahad --—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 126.96.36.199 (talk • contribs) . Please sign your posts!
Formatting - Insert Your Rating Here/5 I give this class a Insert Your Rating Here out of 5 because insert why you gave the rating and how to improve it --—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 188.8.131.52 (talk • contribs) . Please sign your posts!
Flavor - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because There was great enthusiasm in your class design, keep up the work! --—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 184.108.40.206 (talk • contribs) . Please sign your posts!