Talk:Cantripologist (3.5e Class)
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Merge with Variant?
There is a Cantripologist,_variant in this wiki too and it fixes a lot of the issues discussed on this page, any chance the two pages could be merged? Both seem to be updated recently.
Things the other version has:
- lore: no lawful and no elves both make sense, (although they are arbitrary and limit the class for no game-balance reason
- BaB of a cleric, not a wizard: I don't think this is warranted though, wizard sounds right here since attacks are vs touch ac.
- Different class skill list: This class is a caster, why does it have bluff, heal, spot, search, sense motive or forgery? I don't think it should have Decipher script like the variant has since this class doesn't read up on higher level spells, but perform makes sense since this class lends itself to showing off.
- Much lower cantrips per casting at high levels: This is important as it eliminates the need for a Pseudocasting level and simplifies a lot of the class, (see DCs below.) I'd have to play-test this to check balance wise how many spells per casting it needs to keep up though as it's a major change, (this version allows 60 cantrips per round at level 20, the other only allows 20 per round.) This could be offset by allowing a cantripologist to do a full attack of casting using his 2nd attack as a second set of up to 20 cantrips at once with a lower to hit on any spells requiring an attack roll, (and maybe a -5 penalty on save DCs too?)
- Spell save DCs mapped out better: Casting multiple cantrips at once is specifically stated to count as casting a spell of their total casting level combined and allow the victim's choice of save type if using more than one. 18 cantrips = a single level 9 spell. Save DC of 10 + (number of cantrips /2) + int. This is in line with wizard save DCs. As currently written this version at level 20 gets a save DC of 10 + 30 + int. That's 21 higher than a level 20 wizard casting it's highest spell, a level 9. This also gets around the globe of minor invulnerability problem.
- Wording of spells known and spells per day: The variant mentions that the spells known per day can change from day to day so multiclassing wizard doesn't give you all of the cantrips to use. You already know every cantrip in existence like a wizard from level 1, (although mentioning non-arcane cantrips are allowed like this version does is a good thing.) You just don't have them all prepared for use that day, you only have the ones you chose to be part of your spell list that day, (but can cast like a sorceror out of that list, sounds like a neat compromise system that fits the idea of this class.) The name "Spells Known" should be replaced with "Spells Memorized" though to denote that you already know all of them, you just can't use ones you didn't memorize that day.
- Bonus spells from high int: The variant maps this out, this version skips that so a high int doesn't give nearly as much bonus as it should.
- Details on metamagic usage: The variant's wording seems much cleaner to me, but it requires double the level adjust. I'd have to play it, but this actually sounds balanced considering the metamagic effects all the cantrips being cast.
- Craft spell: Considering the number of cantrips in the printed materials vs the number of other spells this is really a must-have for this class to shine. Obviously each crafted spell needs DM approval, (and the example Umberandphos gives of Quantum_Blip_(3.5e_Spell) looks overpowered to me. I'd make it a 5' not 20'.) This allows a cantripologist to skip the Imitate Spell ability that really looks like a "well crap, cantrips can't do anything like that but I want my caster to keep up" patch. By allowing cantripologists the ability to create weaker versions of spells then use their class abilities to make them strong you can get the functionality and power of imitate spell while maintaining the lore and feel of this great class idea.
- Lack of change energy type: Why is this even in here? There is a cantrip of each energy type already and you can just cast the other one, no need to modify the spell itself, just change what spell you are using. (might be related to the explanation in the variant that spells known can change daily.)
- Innate cantrip: I'm not really sure the reason the variant has this ability but it does seem to fit the lore. It's something that I think can be added or removed to help balance the class if it's under or overpowered. Might have to do with the greater cantrip idea that seems to have been mostly removed from this version, (still mentioned in the adaptation section at the bottom.)
- More bonus metamagic feats, but more limited selection: This seems like a mistake in my eyes, a level 20 wizard gets 4 bonus metamagic feats, this version of cantripologist gets 5, and the variant gets 7. I think this should work exactly the same as a wizard, and should be worded as such, any feat marked as available for a wizard's bonus feat should work, and I don't see a need for them more than every 5 levels.
- epic section: I think this version's section just needs to be updated as it says at 22 you get 10 spell levels when at 20 you already have 30. The variant's epic feat list is a bit shorter too, but I'm not sure why they cut out the feats they did.
Now having said all that I love the idea of this class, and this version has a bunch of things better than the variant, thus why I want them merged. I plan to make a cantripologist for the next campaign I join.
If my proposed merge is acceptable I'm willing to edit the page to match, but I thought I should present it here first as it's a severe overhaul.
-- Moginheden 3:47, 11 December 2011 (MDT)
Doesn't Minor Globe of Invulnerability pretty much make this class useless, at least in combat? I like the concept, but I think there are some (or at least one) major flaws here. -- Jota 12:23, 28 April 2009 (MDT)
- True, but this class is meant for creative people. It does not seem that hard to find a workaround (like using many Mage Hands to impale the opponent on something or drop something on them) --Axaj
- Good luck with that, what with needing a move action for each Mage Hand. Surgo 18:06, 28 April 2009 (MDT)
- Seems like as they would be casted at the same time, they would be controlled at the same time too. --Axaj
- If that's what you want the class to be able to do you'd better explicitly state it in the text, because by the RAW that's not how it works. Surgo 18:11, 28 April 2009 (MDT)
- Edited. Does that seem OP at all?
- Also, (@Jota) I'm pretty sure that this class is meant to be a supporting spellcaster, not a main one.
- I had already interpreted it that way (responding to two above), actually, so that wasn't really the problem in my book. I mean, a 20th level cantripologist casting 20 ray of frosts was kind of what I had envisioned at high levels anyway. As for mage hand, when could you ever use it to make attacks? I could see you dropping things on people (but they'd have to be pointy and dropped from rather high given the weight limit -- which is also a problem given the range limit), but I thought attacking was more under the domain of animate objects, which is a sixth level spell. Even if you could attack, you're looking at moving an object 15 feet in somewhere between four and six seconds (given the length of a combat round), which is 3.75 ft/s tops. A quick search says a longbow's arrows average a velocity of 850 ft/s. Good luck killing anyone with your practically standstill sword. Basically, I don't want to shoot this class down. I think it is one of the more interesting class ideas I have come across recently, but it has some issues.
- It seems we were editing at the same time, so in response to the idea the that the cantripologist is a support spellcaster, yes, I agree, but if such is the case it shouldn't be subject the all of the crappy things wizards have to go through to get their arsenal of spells. Something like d6 hit dice, average attacks (to +15) and maybe two good saves might go a ways toward balancing it out a bit. -- Jota 18:33, 28 April 2009 (MDT)
- With Mage Hand I envisioned something like a bow being used from a distance or a gate to a moat being opened from the other side. However, I don't think it should have an increased hit die or better saves. I thing it should just include more bonus feats/cantrips per casting/greater cantrips. --Axaj
- I don't think you could use anything other than a crossbow (too much strength required to pull a bow back; even the crossbow would have to be pre-wound), but I suppose there is something the being able to do 1d3 damage/level each round. The thing is that they become so easily negated and then the cantripologist doesn't even have stoneskin or anything at all to fall back on. A really clever person might be able to manipulate their environment enough to still function, but those people are probably few and far between. Also, don't forget to sign your post. -- Jota 18:54, 28 April 2009 (MDT)
- No, at 5lbs. per level it would be fairly easy to pull a bowstring back. --Axaj
- It is five pounds tops, period, not five per level. And the average real-life English longbow had a pull of anywhere between 80 and 120 pounds. -- Jota 19:02, 28 April 2009 (MDT)
- No, It would be one Mage Hand per level. So at level 20 you could have 20 Mage Hands at once. That would be 100lbs of force. I can see that that would not be that much force, but it would most likely be enough. --Axaj
- I wasn't really thinking vectors and such, but I suppose you have a point, if the DM would allow it. You're still probably attacking like a wizard, though, so it isn't like that's so amazing, aside from the sneak attack potential. I'm going to have to look over all of the cantrips to formulate some interesting strategies for this class in my spare time. -- Jota 19:50, 28 April 2009 (MDT)
- I see Light, Ghost Sound, Mage Hand, ect. being used together to create illusions. Also, I see spell creation a very good option.
Um, the class does not show up on either the rated homebrew classes page or the unrated homebrew classes page. --Axaj
- I'm pretty sure those pages are cached now, so if you give it time it will show up eventually. Surgo 18:11, 28 April 2009 (MDT)
I had previously edited the description to moderate simply because of the incredibly limited number of spells the cantripologist can use, even if he can deal damage on a more massive scale. I'd be interested in hearing if your reason for strong spellcasting goes anywhere beyond the ability to deal damage (which is still heavily restricted by other spells - minor globe of invulnerability for one). -- Jota 18:43, 1 May 2009 (MDT)
- If your DM allows homebrew spells, then there are plenty of combinations to create a variety of effects. Also, if your DM allows you to research and create spells in-game, plenty of new options would be available. And anyways, strong spellcasting (to my knowledge) means the class is spellcasting-focused. --Axaj 21:00, 1 May 2009 (MDT)
- To say that this isn't Strong Spellcasting implies that it's very weak, since there is nothing else that it can do. --Foxwarrior 19:22, 28 October 2010 (MDT)
I feel like with a couple of alterations, this class could really be entertaining. Instead of considering each round of casting as several spells, each with seperate (and thus non-stacking) effects, the class could combine similar effects for higher effective spell levels and applying metmamagic feats thereafter? A 20th level Cantripologist could cast, say, 10 "Guidance"s on his bard ally (as one spell with an effective level of 5) giving him +10 on his diplomacy check, to get the party out of a sticky spot. Or cast 12 flares (again as one spell, with an effective level of 6), enlarging the spell as a whole (for an effective level of 7) so that he can give that assassin a -6 on his attempt to kill he regent of the land. OR over coming ER with a single Ray doing 20d3 rather than 20 each doing 1d3... --Frank 07:54, 28 October 2010
- Combining the effects seems like a pretty clever idea, but it might get a little more difficult to phrase. If you'd like to see it, you'll have to check on the third wiki at some point in the near future. --Foxwarrior 19:22, 28 October 2010 (MDT)
- That some point in the near future has occurred (it's still called the Cantripologist, and I'm still called Foxwarrior), but I'm somewhat worried about the massive penalty to Spot and Listen checks you can give with Lullaby, and the havoc you can wreak with Daze. --Foxwarrior 13:56, 29 October 2010 (MDT)
Why the revert?
I don't see what the problem with my edit was.
Well done, Foxwarrior
I'm also having difficulty seeing wether it's OP or UP, but being able to make around 8000 Liters of water in a single round seems pretty powerful (Create water creates 2 gallons of water per level of pure water. That is the equivalent of 40 gallons per casting at 20th level. Since he can cast it 20 times per rounds, that equals 400 gallons per round, or 1500 kg of water.)
Following that up with 20 rays of frost can create pretty ice sculptures, ice barricades, slippery scating rigs and frozen enemies. If you want, you can even just use half of your cantrips per round to create water above the enemies head and use the rest to freeze it with ray's of frost.
A creative player can really make good use of this class If he has a good DM that is ;-) , especially with some good multiclassing. I mean, a second level cantripologist/wizard will have an endless amount of cantrips, plus 2 level 1 spells, which is consideranably better than a level 2 wizard, with his 4 cantrips and 2 level 1 spells.
With the addition of the spell compendium, the class gets even more powerfull, and if the DM allows new spells, there are endless possibilities. For example, the spell compendium has a cantrip that allows a wizard to fire crossbow bolts. Not too powerful, except when used 20 times per round :D (that should take care of that goblin army)
And if the DM is running a gesalt campaign, the wizard couldnt have a better companion class.
Foxwarrior, you have made an awesome class.
- Like all conjuration spells, Create Water can only make anything on a surface capable of supporting it (which air is not). Why no one ever seems to remember this... Surgo 02:13, 4 July 2009 (MDT)
Power - 4.5/5 I give this class a 4.5 out of 5 because because it is very slightly OP or UP, I can't tell until I use it in a campaign. However, most of the things that make this class seem very OP are offset by the limited feat selection (and the general inability to create magic items). --Axaj 08:42, 28 April 2009 (MDT)
Wording - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because it is very easy to read and understand. --Axaj 08:42, 28 April 2009 (MDT)
Flavor - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because it is a very interesting idea. --Axaj 08:42, 28 April 2009 (MDT)
Scratch this, bad review. --Axaj 02:51, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
Power - 1/5 I give this class a 1 out of 5 because the class is horribly balanced. As written, it cannot deal enough damage at any level to be useful. 1d3 damage at level 1, 15 damage at level 5... why bother? Combined with the need to make attack rolls and the poor BAB, and no major useful class features, it just is far too weak. Until you use things it wasn't intended to be used with. Using Fell Drain to apply a ton of negative levels in a single strike? You've instantly gone from horribly weak to horribly strong. --Dragon Child 23:08, 3 July 2009 (MDT)
Wording - 1/5 I give this class a 1 out of 5 because the class is extremely unclear, and the rules don't work the way the author things they do. The spells are added together, for the purpose of ignoring damage reduction... which doesn't apply to spells! But they're not added together for the purpose of energy resistance, which makes any spell lame. Can greater cantrips be used at the same time as you cast multiple cantrips? Do the metamagic feats apply to all of them, or just one? Do I need to know the metamagic feat used? And so on. --Dragon Child 23:08, 3 July 2009 (MDT)
Flavor - 1/5 I give this class a 1 out of 5 because what's the point? What's the flavor behind a mage who can use a lot of cantrips, as opposed to real spells? It doesn't really make sense, doesn't go anywhere, doesn't fit in on why this is a magical study, and so on. --Dragon Child 23:08, 3 July 2009 (MDT)
- ...Yeah. After trying it out in a campaign I discovered (to my dismay) that it is indeed incredibly unbalanced. --Axaj 19:51, 26 August 2009 (MDT)
- What happened? Would it be fixed with a somewhat more limited spell list? --Foxwarrior 20:19, 14 September 2009 (MDT)
- Cure minor wounds was a huuuuuge problem. I think only a major redesign could save this now. --Axaj 02:54, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
- How is cure minor wounds unbalanced? If you compare a cantripologist's healing to a cleric, the cleric does more healing per cast (on average), but less per day at every level, (although the cantripologist gets a flat amount instead of rolling.) for example at level 1 the cantripologist gets 2hp of healing cast up to 6 times per day (12 total), the cleric gets 1d8+1 and 1x3 healing for an average total of 8.5 per day. Most groups rest when they run out of spells though so the total per day doesn't matter nearly as much as the amount per cast. I've made a spreadsheet comparing cleric to cantripologist healing. The numbers up to level 8 are obvious, once the cleric gets cure mass I'm presuming it can heal a party of 4 with each mass. Another thing to factor in for healing is a dragon shaman's vigor aura or a binder with the healing vestiage can produce an unlimited amount of healing per day, (although not as much per round as a cleric.)
- The only issue I see is we might need to limit a cantripologist to only divine OR arcane cantrips, (chosen when taking a level of cantripologist, the 2 lines would not stack so you could have a cantripologist, (arcane) level 2 multiclass cantripologist (divine) level 4 with ECL of 6 able to cast 12 divine cantrips at once OR 6 arcane cantrips at once, but not both in the same round. --Moginheden 13:52, 11 December 2011 (MDT)
Power - 2.5/5 I give this class a 2.5 out of 5 because as a sorcerer it may be slightly OP but as it uses INT, not bad.
Wording - 3.5/5 I give this class a 3.5 out of 5 because there was thought put into it but a little more would have been nice/appreciated.
Formatting - 4/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 because it was laid out quite nicely.
Flavor - 4/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 because I love unique class ideas. This and the Prestidigitator are my favorite to date.
Power - 3/5 I give this class a 3 out of 5 because it lacks a real lasting impression.
Wording - 2/5 I give this class a 2 out of 5 because it stumbled a lot.
Formatting - 4/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 because It's organized but lacks a little
Flavor - 4/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 because it's an interesting concept but not groundbreaking
Power - 4/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 because The spells knowshould be increased by 1 at each level and the abilitie to use 2 cantrips in a single casting should start at 1
Wording - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because <<<insert why you gave the rating and how to improve it>>>
Formatting - 3/5 I give this class a 3 out of 5 because the tables could be a little more clear
Flavor - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because it give a charater type that would have a totally different view on magic
Power - 2.5/5 I give this class a 2.5 out of 5 because in some hands it will be underpowered, in others it will be massvely overpowered
Wording - 3.5/5 I give this class a 3.5 out of 5 because it is worded well. But many of the class' abilities can be confusing and so extra attention must be afforded
Formatting - 4/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 because it follows correct format guidelines but things can always be made smoother.
Flavor - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because flavor is the reason I love this class. exceptional flexibility from player to player and the verve to turn a mundane and underused part of the game into an exciting class mechanic. --Umberandphos 4:38, 11 September 2011 (CST)
It a few hours for my friends and I to finally understand the wording of this class. I could edit some of the word format to make it more understandable, I like to ask if it's okay to edit first lol, cus I make several classes. Either way if the author would like we think we found a way to balance it too. The Cantripologist is supposed to have trouble casting higher level spells, so my friends and I figured if we do it a certain way, we can change the pseudonatural casting level to grant higher level spells later on. Sense almost all spellcaster's have 9th level spells at level 20, we figured it'd be best if the cantripologist gains them at level 24, but we also wanted to increase the number of Imitated spells per day from 8+Int Mod to your Cantripologist level+Int Mod. We thought this would even it out. Im currently running a campaign where I have a cantripologist and he's quite overpowered with just the merge spell ability, but we think these changes would make it a little fairer. I understand that this class was made for role-playing more then anything but I think with these changes we could really make it a full playable class for any campaign.
This class is useless because this variant rule: Spell Points