Discussion:What wishes do you allow?
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What wishes do you allow?
No problem 03:44, 22 February 2008 (MST)
so what wishes are "legal" in your campaign? and i dont mean the technical narrow interpretation of the exact wording in the description. i mean, what do you allow, or think should be allowed by wish spells (and limited wish).
Hard to say, you can do so much with it, and legality is first and foremost based on what is technically legal. I suppose you mean where do I draw the line... also hard to say since there's so many exceptions but...
Well, obviously anything in the rules is legal. Outside it varies. If you tried to cast Awaken Construct (9th level and out of Wish's power) but had the material component (a brain) on hand, I'd allow it. Both spells take 5000 XP anyway, so there is practically no difference.
For 9th level spells but no major abuses, I'd grant the wish and add a minor mishap that won't be traumatizing. Like: "I wish for a Gate spell". Done... if you used it for transport, you can, and there happens to be a battle going on over there at the time and you just jumped into it. Or called a creature, and it's a greedy bastard and wants more payment than what is typical.
And then for things above it, then you can get fun with it. You want to revive the army of troops that was just wiped out? Sure... they all rise as skeletons and zombies. Whee!
Unfortunately I can't really get any more specific than that.
No problem 17:40, 22 February 2008 (MST)
while i did mean creative things, i also meant dull enhancement things. like, would you allow a wish to give you skill ranks, say to be used normally. not to exceed maximum ranks. if so, how many ranks? what about feats? how many feats per wish? would you allow epic feats for a wish, say a wish would grant you one epic feat which might seem reasonable since an epic feat can grant you +1 on ability score and a wish can do that as well though the bonuses are different kinds. if you allow regular or epic feats to be wished for, would you limit this number like inherent bonuses to ability scores, meaning, you can use wishes to get more than 5 feats or something like that. in short, ow many skill tanks per wish, how many feat per wish and would you allow a wish to grant you an epic feat if you have the requirement?
on the "creative" side, would you allow a wish to transfer the properties of one magic item to another. say if i had a +3 longsword and a +2 vorpal shortsword, would you allow a wish to transfer the vorpal quality from shortsword to longswrod?
plus, of course, amusing stories about wishes would be welcome :)
I would allow wishes to give temporary skill ranks or temporary feats. Think of Moment of Prescience (8th level spell, but a good example). You can get +20 to a single skill check. +10 to checks for a minute per level would probably be fair. Temporary feats for a minute per level would also be fine.
For transferring the property, I'd figure out the cost difference. The +2 sword in your example loses 90k gp in value. The +3 sword gains 110k gp in value. This leaves a 20k difference in gold. Wish can do non-magical items up to 25k gp in value. So this example looks fair.
No problem 21:34, 22 February 2008 (MST)
i meant permanent skill and feat enhancements.
Yeah I wouldn't do that. You can have it make items that grant feats or skill bonuses as an alternative. In my opinion though, permanent bonuses should be gained through levels only.
As a rule the only perma-bonus you can get it the inherent +5 maximum to ability scores.
I once heard of using it to get +5 natural armor in the same way as ability scores but I believe this to be a houserule.
Wishing for other things tends to range from shaky to dangerous. I may potentially be convinced that you could wish for a single feat that you qualify for, but you're well into DM fiat territory.
No problem 01:13, 23 February 2008 (MST)
clearly this is DM's world which is why i asked you guys. but why shaky or dangerous? what differentiates +5 to some ability score to getting, say, 5 regular (nonepic) feats for which you qualify? i mean, had i been a DM (i am not) i would allow getting at least five feats in the same manner as getting inherent bonuses using 5 consecutive wish spells for example. why not? aside from the fact that the rules do not specifically address it. same for skill ranks. why not give the character some ranks? give me a game oriented reason. how does it damage the game? i mean, paying 5000 XP several times over is equivalent to giving up a level. and this goes on. and what about other things? can i wish for darkvision? low light vision? scent? blindsight? stuff like that. permanent.
The problem with giving 5 feats is that they are so powerful. Yes, epic feats can add +1 to an ability score, but those are really weak feats. A wizard gets 7 feats by level 20. They do also only get 5 ability score increases. They can get ability score increases easily from items. Feats not so much. Feats are a limiting factor for a character build. They allow you to do more stuff usually. Ability scores don't. So allowing +5 to an ability score does not change the mechanics of a character build. Allowing extra feats does. This is why a lot of people find flaws to be overpowered. Getting extra feats is really powerful -- being able to wish for them is crazy.
Skills on the other hand, I could actually see some argument for. There are enough ways to pump them up, why not a wish? On the other hand, isn't that what getting an inherent Int bonus does? It makes you better at learning skills. You'll get 2-3 skill points per level from 5 wishes. Well it is up to you. I'm not sure what I'd do (I'd probably allow it -- wish is expensive enough to warrant it).
No problem 18:16, 23 February 2008 (MST)
as for skills, int boost allows your future skill points to add. you do not get them retroactively like hit point for constitution boosts. as for feats, a wizard gets 7 feats by level 20? maybe not including character feats. and anyway, only some feats allow you to do "new" things and again, paying that much XP? for a regular feat? it is powerful, yes. but in this way you would pay 25,000 XP for 5 regular feats. that is more than a level which means lesser BAB, caster/manufester level, hp, class abilities, skills points, possibly other feats and stuff like that. if u really and truly object to giving feats on the ground that they are too powerful cause they give new abilities, i could possibly see barring some feats from the least. but many feats are merely improvements on already existing abilities. the various wild shapes. the various weapon attack and damage feats. save feats. skill feats. why, just on memory, i would guess most feats are just boosts to regular existing abilities. and again, i am not sure 5000XP isnt worth any regular feat you qualify for. i seem to recall (though i may be wrong) that in 4E there will be something like XP for class abilities or feat like things. makes sense. i personally hate having to multiclass just to get certain abilities. why not pay for them in XP?
But multiclassing is so delicious!
Half the reason lies in issues with qualifying for PrCs, half in the power of feats. Asking for the ability of a feat without actually gaining the feat is significantly weaker (and thus more wish worthy) that getting the actual feat. You might convince your DM that 1 extra hp per level for 5000xp is good (Improved Toughness in spirit), but if you get Improved Toughness, you've just opened up a path to a new chain of feats and PrCs, and that value is greater than the loss of XP (which is a renewable resource mind you, fight some and you'll get it back). In addition feats are extraordinary effects. Consider how much an item costs when it gives an effect (anything at all), which can never be dispelled and are immune to antimagic fields. You will always have your +1 Dodge to AC or your 1 hp per level or your ability to crit well with Longswords, and they can't take it away.
IMHO though the risk doesn't seem worth it. Pretty much all of those requests are DM fiat, and he could puppet you around. Given the great power Wish possesses, any sane DM is apt to keep a tight rein on what it can do and be wary of those trying to do strange things with its power.
No problem 02:06, 24 February 2008 (MST)
ability score increase is nondispellable as well. so what? feats are extraordinary, yes but so what? so are class abilities for most part and paying 5000XP means you get them much later in the game. so you trade time till you get other abilities to get now an ability. it's a trade off. and again, i know it's DM's decision. i am just asking. and asking why. and then violently diasgreeing cause you are all wrong wrong wrong!
According to the spell, all wishes are allowed, but those stronger than the wishes suggested can be... messed up in some way. For example, if one wished for immortality, they could end up trapped in an extradimensional space for all eturnity, and if they wished for an ultimate weapon, you could make it an ultemate cursed weapon, or an ultemate weapon that the character can't use.
Green Dragon 20:34, 24 February 2008 (MST)
Give 'em a feat, take away two others. That would be a fair trade off. And, so it's not metagaming, the wish could have just erased them from the receivers mind accidentally when teaching them the new one.
ShadowyFigure 13:10, 26 March 2008 (MDT)
Always renember rule 1 of Wish. Tricking players is fun. Like sam kay said a player could wish for the ultimate weapon. You could give the player the ultimate weapon in the form of a toothpick that requires the players defeating a CR 100 Monster! To unlock its form. But seriosuly feats and skill points arn't really ya know a good idea.
you are all so right. the only rule i would have for wishes, is that the player says something in-game, and the wish is fulfilled. to use the exaple with feats, a character could wish for focus at climbing (skill focus (climb)). i would give him the feat, but with the minot trick that he gained 'focus' in the skill. ill give him a minus to some other skills to modify it.
"Tricking players is fun".
Not for the players, honestly thats a terrible way to DM imho. You're already paying 5000xp. Mind you I'm not saying "give players whatever they ask" for things outside of the limits of the spell, but you have to consider they're already paying a hefty cost. Many of the things suggested are pretty character breaking, and un-recoverable by any means. At the very least, out of character they should receive an obligatory warning of "are you sure you want to do this".
The 5000xp cost is a fairly good deterrent to abuse as is.
Well, there is one thing that a DM can utilize, and it's even straight out of the DMG: PC's aren't the only ones that can cast the Wish spell. If a player oversteps their bounds in a wish, and you don't want to be known as the "DM that gives a drawback to every casting of the Wish spell" (and you shouldn't...the kids are already paying a 5k xp cost, for cryin' out loud) you can always have a Wish undone by the request of an Evil cleric casting Miracle...and now you have an evil deity getting mixed up in mortal affairs...plothook, anyone?
18.104.22.168 21:07, 18 December 2008 (MDT)
I like to go by the moto "Anything you can my baddies can do better!" Seriously tough since i tend to run high level game (they start at 18 to 20 and usually end at 25ish) things always get crazy. Besides if they piss off the wrong people and give them suitable reasons my baddies sometimes cast wish. When there wished attributes or feats start dissapearing the PC usually head for cover.
Here are my rules for Wish :
- up to +5 inherent ability bonus (+1 per wish)
- up to +10 enhancement bonus to a skill (+2 per Wish) (enhancement stops it from stacking with items)
- one feat so long as it doesnt have more than one other feats a prerequisite, No epic feats (one per Wish)
- +10 DC to the next spell you cast/-10 to the next save of target (No stacking for more)
- Make up to 1/level maximized or twinned (if wizard they stay until used, if sorc its the next 10 spells, affect up to level 6 spells
- +5 hp
Thats pretty much all the preapproved effects. I include in my game the term "safe" wish in that the character as found records of other wishs used in the past and there context. I treat them as part of the treasure since my players love them. Also the party can research to try and find "safe" wishes. A "safe" wish is exactly that. It functions exactly as intended but usually dont have very much flexibility. For example they might find a book describing the records of a wizards using wish to strengten his body in a particular way (Improved Toughness). Since it bestows a specific feat, the players can reapply multiple times on themselves.
As for on the fly wish... well I have fun with those.
It's too easy to wish-lawyer completely safely, and twisting really isn't fun for anyone. I stick with the modified wish rules in Dungeonomicon. That way, you can get an Efreet to do the simple stuff whereas before you were just getting an Efreet to do _everything_, and complicated stuff requires a bit of XP expenditure or X-per-adventure or whatever.
I generally play with experienced (as in been playing table-top RPGs since the beginning of 2nd Edition D&D) as well as humorous players, so when it comes to wishes, if they ask for something small and simple, I give it to them or give them a way of getting it, however, if they are not specific enough when wanting very specific and powerful things, I twist it a bit, and I actually have them word it out, they can't say "I want this feat" they have to say it as their character would say it. For example: Terra says "I wish for greater skill with a blade" with this wish she'd get Weapon Focus with any one bladed weapon type (DM's choice), or if you wanted to be cruel only one specific weapon.
Now when it comes to Jinn and monsters that are either evil or mischievous (like any fey), by nature they would want to twist the wishes (Like in Wishmaster) or have fun with it (you don't want wishes granted by a pixi). Now if you make a contract with a fey or demon in exchange for a wish, generally the monster will twist their side of the trade so that they end up on top, it takes an excessively clever player/character to make these deals and not get pulled into a bad situation.