Talk:Meltskin (5e Race)
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This is pretty much a tanky race based on being a smart zombie.
Here is my quick assessment:
- There's nothing inherently wrong with having a negative ability score modifier, but don't use them to mitigate/balance the ability bonuses.
- Undead. "positive effects" and "negative effects" are not defined in 5e, giving examples doesn't help. Does "poisons heal you" mean that if you take poison damage you gain that many hit points? What about a ray of enfeeblement, is that "negative"?
- Rot. Instead of making a second roll with an odd DC calculation, you could say that rot effects you if you fail the Strength check by 5 or more. What are the effects of an appendage falling off? What does "reversed" mean.. the appendage is reattached? The Medicine DC should be a fixed value, don't add a random element as the check roll itself is random.
- Thermal vision. What is the range on this sense? Do you need to distinguish between living things that emit heat and those that don't?
- Fast Metabolism. How much more food? Gain 1d4 what?
- Disease resilient. Please see the rules for diseases (DMG p. 256) and rewrite this trait. You can't "halve" the effects of many diseases, and the d100 roll is atypical. You could just say "you have advantage on Constitution checks made to resist disease".
- Corpse. What's the roll, bluff? You could say "when you remain motionless, you are indistinguishable from a corpse", then leave the rolling to DM fiat.
- Languages. Why mention "secret lanuages"? The PHB already tells you what languages you can pick.
- At this point, it seems clear that this ghoul race isn't the same as the ghoul in D&D lore, so I suggest renaming it.
- Feral Ghoul. This allows a +3 Strength modifer.
- Uncivilized. Avoid penalties and bonuses like this. There are a few in the game, but they were largely removed to avoid stacking. Look at the races in the PHB to see how this can be done. You could use double proficiency (like the dwarves stonecunning) and half proficiency, or advantage/disadvantage.
- Bloodluist. This makes a monk ghoul's damage too high.
- Illiterate. Illiterate isn't a feat, nor does any race or class have a feature called "illiterate". Also, does this mean that a feral ghoul cannot be a wizard?
- Smart Brain. Is it your intent that a ghoul can speak more languages than a high elf?
- Undead Diplomat. What is the actual mechanical benefit?
- Fast learner. Per bonus stacking, above.
- Undead. Its more of a mechanic that potions of damage heal you, because its a negative energy, and undeads in previous editions were damaged by HP, So it's a homage to them
- Rot. When appendiges fall off, you lose any working ability with it, for example, if you lose your arm, you lose your arm to use weaponry or any item on that arm, Or your leg, Which forces you to go prone and crawl. The DC just reverses the effects and is pretty much a stabilization method, you gain the appendige back, and when you successfully do the check, you then get another week time limit until its possible for it to happen again and It only happens if you do actions like hitting enemies with a 2 handed weapon or picking something heavy up.
- Thermal vision. I'll be editing that soon to make it up to 30ft, You can only distinguish heat, not cold levels.
- Fast metabolism. A quarter, i will state this on the page itself. It heals a d4 of temporary, too.
- Disease resilient. I will probably change it to that, i wasn't thinking straight on that one.
- Languages. I usually see this on alot of other pages, so I added it here.
- Corpse. I plan to change this to make you look like a corpse when standing still, thanks for the idea!
- Name. I couldn't think of a name, I'll change it to a different name ASAC
- Feral ghoul, The subraces are purely optional, you don't have to pick one. I will further balance this
- Uncivilized. I will change this to something alot more easier and flattened.
- Illiterate. Barbarians used to have the feature "Illiterate", I main paladin ever since 3.5e and just checked, I will fix this. And yes, Feral ghouls are technically raged angry zombies that have little focus on magic.
- Smart brain. I've seen a race with 5 languages spoken on homebrew 5e. I will change this to limit a certain amount.
- Undead diplomat. It was supposed to get undead enemies to target you alot less, for example, if theres a human in your party, they're more likely to target that, but I will change this.
- Fast learner. It was for reading checks for studying certain items, but I will change this.
I appreciate your feedback!,I just wanted to see a functioning zombie type race that is actually logical.
- Let me know when this is ready for a second review. If you can, please also tell me which race has 5 languages. A race normally has one or two languages. If a race is particularly cultured, then they might have an extra language (as with the high elves). Marasmusine (talk) 02:12, 17 July 2016 (MDT)
- I've noticed that you tend to use terms that are not 5e definitions. For example:
- There isn't an "elemental damage spell" definition, and I don't know what a "stat damage spell" is.
- "be tired", "fatigue you". 5e has an exhaustion mechanic, and some creatures have immunity to exhaustion. Don't give exhaustion immunity to a player.
- Undead says "potions and spells do the exact opposite". This is extremely broad with unpredictable results, and in many cases doesn't make sense at all. I think what you want is something like:
- "Spells or other magical effects that would allow you to regain hit points instead deal the same amount of radiant damage to you."
- "You have resistance to necrotic damage." (necrotic damage represents "negative energy", for example the inflict wounds spell deals necrotic. Think of resistance as taking the damage and then healing half of it back. Immunity to necrotic, or regaining hit points instead, is too powerful for a constant effect, but it would be fine as a limited power.
- Rot. After 2d8 days from what? Character creation? After you make the first Strength check, when do you check again? It looks like the DCs are DC 10 for the 1st, DC 12 for the 2nd, DC 15 for the 3rd, DC 18 for the 4th, etc, is this correct? How often can I try the medicine check (because at the moment I can just repeatedly make the check on myself until the limb comes back, making the whole thing a waste of time) and what is the DC? What appendages can fall off, does it mean arms and legs, or fingers and toes or what?
- "of temporary hp" -> "temporary hit points" Marasmusine (talk) 05:26, 17 July 2016 (MDT)
- I've noticed that you tend to use terms that are not 5e definitions. For example:
- Undead. If it had resistance, how would the player be able to heal?, Potions wouldn't be able to heal, you'd take damage to them, and clerics can't heal you, I'd say that radiant spells that heal you instead damage you, while necrotic spells heal you. Potions of healing would kill you, while poisons will heal you. Its more of an opposite spectrum of a human. Except not evil.
- Rot. I never really stated the time, I'll state it is character creation and increase the die to 2d10. And i'll state limbs (Like arms and legs) fall off. And the medicine check can be tried thrice, and take short rests to regenerate those numbers (Because losing a limb permanently would suck). The strength check happens when you're aggressively doing something, or defending from an attack, a light item wouldn't make your arm fall off. Heavy armor in poor condition would. The strength check should only happen when doing strength checks to lift up items over (Specific amount of pounds), And attacking enemies with a melee (Because hitting an enemy and watching your arm fly off and hit them in the face is probably the best thing that could happen). And for the strength check, Yes, thats how it works.
- Temporary hp. Ah. Yeah. I was tired at the time ^^;, I will fix that.
Dear person who edited the page
Hello!, To you who thinks its unbalanced, it's not, I've worked on the page hard enough, the stats and make alot of sense on how they are written, Please explain all balances here - GR1ZZLYB34R 188.8.131.52 08:06, 8 April 2017 (UTC)
- You can choose to be either Large or Medium with barely any drawback for being Large. Being a Large player-character in of itself has huge rammifications, which are detailed more astutely in the 5e Race Design Guide.
- "You gain a +1 bonus to attack rolls in the wilderness." In a game with bounded attack rolls and AC, any flat bonus to attack rolls is a huge boon. Furthermore, 'wilderness' is an open-ended term that could arguably be any environment that isn't urban — and even if you use stricter defintions, many campaigns take place entirely in urban settings.
- Thermal vision apparently lets you detect and see any creatures within 20 feet, even if they are behind total cover, have a trait like "false appearance," are invisible, are underground, etc. It's practically the equivalent of truesight, which is considered an extremely powerful capability.
- "You gain advantages to conversing with the undead" doesn't describe the rammifications of these 'advantages.' Do you gain advantage on Charisma ability checks? Both Intimidation and Persuasion? Wisdom checks? What if the undead doesn't understand you but you are speaking to it?
- "When laying down, You look dead. Laying down completely still makes creatures think that you died." This is a relatively small complaint, but this should be explained better. As it is written now, one can can lay down to perfectly convince anyone one is dead.
- "You gain 1d4 of temporary healing per meaty meal." Pack meat rations costing a few copper pieces to get discount potions of healing. It takes specific DM intervention to say soemthing along the lines of, "you can't just have 5 meals during an hour-long short rest."
- The benefits to the "Smart Meltskin" subrace are vastly inferior to those of the "Feral Smartskin" subrace, for every traditional class except maybe wizard. In a normal campaign, when would "When reading a book, Half the time it takes to read it" ever be useful?
- Rot is just... a mess, honestly. Every time you attack, you have to "roll strength" (Saving throw? Ability check?) or your limb falls off. Every time you climb. Every time you dash. Etc.
Aside from all that, the numerous grammatical errors make it difficult to read and understand. I'm not going to start an edit war. I just wanted to improve the race, and warn anyone who wanted to use it that it might have balance issues. Do what you want. — Guy (talk | edits) 08:34, 8 April 2017 (UTC)
- It hasn't really progressed much since I reviewed it last year. We've also got "radiant healing spells", "1d4 of temporary healing per meaty meal" (temporary healing), "gain advantages to conversing with the undead."
- Also, the description is poorly written. The whole thing needs rewriting.
- Since there hasn't been any interest in improving this, I might propose it for deletion. Marasmusine (talk) 09:07, 8 April 2017 (UTC)
- Large players have a larger downside from AC, Armor check and the only bonuses are that they can hit as of 3.5e era, If that doesn't apply now, then why suggest balancing something that is supposed to be for playing a different kind of playstyle?
- I fixed that to change it to outside of towns, using Grapples
- I will change that to targets that aren't concealed by full cover.
- I thought anyone could easily tell that they're about Intimidation and Persuasion, However, I will change it to that, Also, you don't have to use your voice to intimidate someone, I hope you know this.
- I'll make it a DC 15 check.
- 1d4 of temporary healing?, That's so they can survive if the cleric doesn't have any inflict damage spells, If they don't have that, they'd die on the spot from a cleric that doesn't have any inflict spells
- "Vastly Inferior"?, I'm sorry that more of a pacifist role and a non combat role is not your style, I can see how both of those subraces are equal, It is even said that you don't have to choose it. Reading a book helps alot in campaigns especially if a DM is running a Home rule which allows reading to increase intelligence or certain stats.
- Rot is supposed to be a mess because you're a walking, cursed, rotting corpse. Would you like me to add a warning to others to say that this is a "Hard" race when it's balanced enough as it is?
In response to Marasumine
- I've worked on this for a while, If you want to improve the description you can, I've got other things to do, i'm a person.
- Delete it?, If you wanted to delete it you should've done it a long time ago. It's been a year.
If you guys are seriously complaining about something being different because it has downsides as racial feats, I'm not gonna bother your circlejerk over your 5e "HHNNNG EVERY RACE HAS NO DOWNSIDES HNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN". This race is a homage to how DND is supposed to be played without the added babifying. Why complain about something when you can easily fix it yourself?
Thanks for reading. - GR1ZZLYB34R
Uh, things are getting quite a bit too intense over here, but mind if I leave some comments as well? I think things are not that bad, only some parts might need some tweakings...
- Ability Score Increase. Now, I am normally against having negative ability score bonus for races, but I think there must be a way to have things good for both sides. Take drow's Sunlight Sensitivity trait, for example - a complete penalty, but a good trait nonetheless. Instead of having a -2 modifier to Dexterity score itself, imposing disadvantage to ability checks and attack rolls that involves Dexterity may be satisfactory. (I'm not sure with saving throws, mostly because I'm not a good writer myself, but I might want to see that one coming.)
- Size. I acknowldege that Large-sized character race is quite unusual, there is no defined things on official rulebooks as far as I know (even goliaths from Elemental Evil Player's Companion was Medium). However, I also acknowledge that there is a variant rule in this wiki that specifies some rules concerning Large character race. So here it goes: Variant Rule: Large Player Characters.
- Personally, I think the best way is to divide Large-sized meltskins into a seperate subrace, with different rules applied. That way it would be much comfortable to mention differences between Medium-sized meltskins and Large-sized meltskins. Speed, for starters.
- Undead. I know what you're trying to say here, but maybe it's a bit too strong, perhaps? If all damage-dealing spell would restore your hit points, meltskins are pretty much invincible versus wizards and other spellcasters. Judging by the fact that you have chosen the inflict wounds spell for an example, I think this feature is better to be restricted to necrotic damage only, since it "withers matter and even the soul." Appropriate for a zombie, I guess.
- I think the problems come from ambiguous wordings, so here is my version of wording, with some modifications mentioned above: When you drink a potion or is subjected to a spell that would normally restore your hit points, you instead take radiant damage equal to that amount. Conversely, if you are subjected to a spell that would normally deal necrotic damage, you take no damage from that spell, and regain hit point equal to that amount instead.
- Rot. Yes, this is a tricky part. This may be nitpicking, but here are my opinions:
- After 2d10 days after character creation. Maybe we can have a fixed date, perhaps. Not all zombies are walking corpses without any chemical and/or magical treatment to keep them "fresh," perhaps. If it's about embalming and all, maybe you can describe how much it costs, how long does it takes to have one, and how long does it last after having one.
- Doing actions that cause large amounts of stress to joints. Another, well, ambiguous part. Maybe setting an explicit trigger conditions would do, such as, when you attempt to lift, push, or pull an object that is at least one size larger than you, or when you fail on Strength (Athletics) checks, and so forth.
- Strength saving DC. Adding a quarter of previous DC might be a bit problematic, since you have to track down the previous DC for who knows. Maybe you can take a leaf out of barbarian's Relentless Rage feature: Starting with DC 10, the DC increases by n (2 or 3, I recommend) until you get yourself enbalmed, and the DC resets to 10 when you get one.
- Appendages falling off. I... may make no comments on here. Too risky, yet too appropriate for a zombie race. Not something that can be spoken lightly by someone who just started D&D about a year ago.
- Rotting can be stopped and restarted by a Wisdom (Medicine) check. I'm not sure myself, but would you normally want rotting restarted? Plus, having a number of checks could be improved as well, I think increasing the check DC for every try before short rest would be more appropriate.
- Thermal Vision. Like tremorsense, but check the heat, right? The problem people make with this one is, although I understand the concept, things are still ambiguous, starting from "living things." (I mean, is a modron "alive?" I'm not sure myself with this one.) I think this could be improved by stating that you can sense the "creatures that are not constructs or undeads" and "fire and other sources of heat" around you. (It's still strong, by the way, although I'm here to make comments on wording, not saying anything about balance. Again, too risky for a newbie like myself.)
- Fat Metabolism. "Per meal" is, again, ambiguous. If I suddenly decided to have my meal in the middle of a combat, does that still gives me 1d4 temporary hit points? I suggest changing things to "When you finish a short rest with sufficient food and water to take" would be clearer.
- Disease Resilient. Just saying this, but Constitution saving throws are made in order to resist disease, so maybe the word you're looking for is that one. Other than that... Neat, and awesome!
- Corpse. Having the creatue make a contest with its Intelligence (Investigation) or Wisdom (Perception) check versus your Charisma (Deception) check would be nice, since you are disguising that you are dead. Maybe you can get advantage on your side of check. Either that or the DC is 15 or your Charisma (Deception) passive check score, whichever is higher. That way a Charisma-based meltskin can get off more easily by playing dead.
- Feral: Uncivilized. "Outside of towns" is ambiguous. What about a trade post, a market, or an inn that is located between towns and cities? If then, why only benefit on your grappling? There must be a way to elaborate this, but I'm not quite sure with this one.
- Feral: Bloodlust. 1d4 temporary hit points is not a big deal, but that doesn't matter, as far as I think. What matters, from what I think, is that it lasts for 2 rounds, since 5th edition is kinda against round-countings. Most of the features and spells have a limitation as "until the start/end of one's turn". It's short, I understand, but since 1d4 temporary hit points would seldom last more than a hit or two, I think this way would be more appropriate.
- Feral: Illiterate. Maybe adding some more caveats would do, perhaps "unless you are under the effect of a spell that allows you to do so" or something. I'm thinking of what would happen if a feral meltskin is under the effect of the comprehend languages spell.
- Smart: Undead Diplomat. So you have advantage on Charisma checks against undeads, right? I think just that would be sufficient, since skill check is part of ability check in 5th edition.
Well, that's it for me. In short: I don't think this would be so much of a matter fighting over, but from what I see, the conflict stems from some ambiguous wordings of some features. If that could be revised, I think the balancing part could be much more easier.
Oh, and here's my idea on some regulations: Since most of the game is controlled by the local DM, I think the most important parts of having racial traits and other features are having it as clear and straightforward as possible. Since, you know, one DM's okay could be other DM's nokay, depending on the DM's personal preference and roleplaying philosophy. I'm not saying that something's wrong going around here, I only wanted to suggest some way to keep things peaceful here.
Now that is how you review a race!, I applaud you. However
- Ability Score Increase. Is supposed to downside the race and imply that they are alot more slow then standard races, This was used in previous editions until 5e decided "Nah, can't do that", Albeit, Negatives did limit some builds, it also balanced alot of things that were strong, ever since their downsides were removed, they're now alot more stronger while human is sitting in the dust.
- Undead. was originally supposed to be Necrotic damage, but some people kept arguing and didn't understand what it is.
- Size. At this point i'll probably remove large alltogether.
- Rot. A fixed date?, I should probably add more lore to explain why they just rot
- Thermal Vision. Albeit, it is strong, Probably gonna invoke blindness to all surroundings instead of the actual sources
- Fast Metabolism. If it works like in previous editions, You get attacks of opportunity when eating in the middle of a battle. It's there so the meltskin doesn't get royally screwed over by the party if they don't have a healer with any necrotic spells, I should probably balance this alltogether adding another downside to undead, meaning you can't heal by natural means (because you're a cursed corpse that can walk)
- Feral: Uncivilized. If you can give me another word for "Outside of towns" that fits the sentence and uses it, i'll be glad to use it.
- Feral: Illiterate. I don't want that to happen to a feral meltskin, It's a downside for the power that they have from regenerating hit points so they can stay balanced
- Smart: Undead Diplomat. It was originally implied to be charisma checks against undead.
Other then that, I do applaud you for actually offering other ideas and your opinion on things and giving me an alternative to write such things. -GR1ZZLYB34R