Talk:Infinium, Gun Mage (3.5e Class)
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Balance 0/5 I gave this class a 0 out of 5 in balance for one really big overarching reason, but also many others that I'll get too. I really doubt any class, of any kind should be able to, at level 10, do a base damage of 2100, yes two thousand one hundred, damage. This is if somehow you rolled only ones on all your damage rolls. I went over this class a lot, and from how the class is laid out in it's current state of format, for lack of a better word. Currently at level ten you gain these two notable skills as a Gun Mage
Infirnium LMG And The eye of Elthor
First picking apart the Eye of Elthor class ability, as stated in the description the gum mage can just, create this device which doubles the range of his fire arm no matter what. Pistols now are hitting at a range of 80, Assault Rifle at 160, Sniper at 350, and the LMG at 220. First, this basically takes the Gun Mage pretty much out of combat range for anyone to return fire, and even if they can the Gun Mage has the first level ability to just shot projectiles out of the sky as swift action, so pretty much as is he's un-hittable under random encounter circumstances, well not exactly but I'll get to that later. Second magical equipment aside, if a gun mage starts out with a 18 dexterity and pours their stat boosts at fourth and eighth levels into dexterity, the gun mage has a base 20 dexterity, and apparently at will can use an ability three times a day to just add an additional four to it. Considering the Gun Mage is ranged based class and is shooting from really far away, his base bonus to hit has skyrocketed to +11, assuming Steadied hands, doesn't stack with itself, which I pray it doesn't otherwise this class just got even more broken then it was already.
Now to pick apart the real meat of this matter, Infirnium LMG, currently as it stands with how casing damage is described and how the ability is laid out, as a standard action once a day, a Gun Mage can pull out an LMG and unleash hell. At 220ft range he's firing 300 shots, using a ranged touch attack as his to hit for every 20 shots, each doing the casting bonus damage of a tenth level, which is 3d8+2, on top of the underlying issue posed when casings ADD damage to the gun they are fired from, in an LMG's case, 2d12.
So let's do some math, 300 shots, doing 2d12+3d8+2 each, do that twenty times over for each ranged touch attack you make. if by some unlucky misfortune you only roll ones for damage, you're doing 2100 damage, that's your lowest for your turn! You're average is around 7900 damage, I don't think deities can survive that much bullet hell, let alone the poor souls the Gun Mage is shooting at. This isn't even taking into consideration feats, oh which by the way by level ten a Human Gun Mage has 10 of (for those paying attention as much as a fighter has at 10th level), and can nearly qualify for a few epic feats too, magical equipment, spell buffs from allies, or anything for that matter, this is all based solely on the Gun Mage's class abilities! And from Tenth level the carnage only get's worse and worse for anyone unlucky enough to suffer the wrath of a Gun Mage's LMG, as his casings only get more deadly with each level!
But all that tenth level insanity aside I'm going to start from the beginning at level 1 Gun Mage.
First Mastery of projectiles. The Description states...Any projectile(including magical projectiles) Can be shot out of the air before reaching its target this is a swift action. What...Magical, or ANY projectile, a Gun Mage can just say nope and shoot it out of the sky as a swift action?
Also, A bonus Feat at level one, on top of level one feat. If you're a human that means three feats at your first level. A wise Gun Mage player would possible try to buff his range with Point Blank Shot, Far Shot, and Precise Shot, now basic pistols have a 60ft range, do more damage if they shoot at an enemy within 30ft and can shoot into melee, with a 2d8 damage weapon that cost the Gun Mage zip, oh his casings cost about 3 silver each, at level one with just his pistol he does more damage for free practically then any other ranged class can spend on their weapon.
Another major issue I'm seeing is the Barrier of Haxor skill they gain at 12th level, in addition to having 12 total feats. As it states a gun mage can at will create a second skin of undetermined duration that gives them a DR of 12/- there is no mention of it being able to stack nor is there a down time between uses.
I haven't even gotten into some of the other things that is just insanely broken with this class, but I'll leave it at this for now. Balance isn't even a word that should be used when thinking about this class.
LMG: Re-balance so you don't turn everything within 220ft into swish cheese at level ten, revamp so it's not doing 7900 average damage a clip or make it level 20 skill and tone it down a fair bit.
Barrier of Haxor: Just no, remove this there is no way to make it balanced in my opinion
Bonus Feats: I highly doubt this class should have almost as many feats as a fighter should, remove several.
Mastery Of Projectiles: I would say either add something like this in "He must make a ranged attack against the projectile where the DC to deflect it is 5 + the projectile's to hit, or if no to hit was rolled, 10 + twice the spell level." or remove effecting magical projectiles.
--Gemstone 2:23, 3 July 2015
- It's me again, been watching this page for over a year now and some things have been changed, but Balance is still a 0 out of 5 here.
- The format is still horrendous in places
- For starters...
- LMG: Hasn't been touched, so it seems the author of the class and anyone editing it in the past year has thought that 7900 average damage is balanced for a Tenth level character, when they can practically take ten on all their attacks and hit 98% of their CR
- Mastery Of Projectiles: Also hasn't been touched, not sure why.
- Bonus Feats: Untouched, apparently having the feats of a fighter at twice to three times the range of the best rangers is balanced?
- Barrier of Haxor: Not sure why this is trying to be tweaked and not just removed. If anything the modifications to it have make it even more unbalanced
- This is what it was last time I made discussion.
- Barrier of Haxor: The Gun mage creates a protective screen over his skin(a second skin) that gives him a 12/Resistance to all explosive damage and force damage moves and any non-magical projectiles, to create the skin he must make a concentration roll(DC/10)
- This is what it is now
- Barrier of Haxor: The Gun mage creates a protective shield that has 1d20 Hp at first and gains 1 every level(Max 5) the shield also has a 12/Resistance to all explosive damage and force damage moves, to create the shield he must make a concentration roll(DC/10), If used as a swift action the barrier has 3 d20 hp.
- Okay so it doesn't give total DR of 12/- I'll give it that, but what it does do now possible is just as bad. Seeing now as force damage is magical so it gives you 12 spell resistance and can be used as a swift action to add on new layers at will. The DC of the concentration check is pointless, if I've been putting points into Concentration skill by level 12 I'll need not roll a nat 1 to pass it and now I get bonus health instead of DR, how exciting.
- Something else I seem to have left out is that apparently the Author thought it was a good idea to make an Infinium immune to Force based magic, no seriously the last line in the page is this.
- Also the gunmage is inmune to force damage because of his explosive nature
- Yes that makes total sense that anything on the Force effect list that deals damage an Infinium would be immune too because apparently they are required to have a certain personality? I actually don't understand how that makes any sense the more I think about it...
- So some other things I'm going to have to pick on because this class is just bizarrely powerful. I ran this just to show how powerful it was about nine months ago and my DM actually just told me to stop playing because we started the campaign at a pretty high level and I just wanted to see how broken the class was without min maxing it
- Let's start from the top with all the things I haven't talked about before.
- Pistol whip: When in melee range(3 feet) the gun mage can use any Arcane firearm to deal melee damage(see weapon for damage roll). The Samurai had finally gotten within close range he knew the Gun mage wasn't fit for close combat, in an act of desperation the Gun Mage strikes the samurai with his pistol knocking him unconscious(He then takes any valuable items from the samurai's body and flees
- While this isn't broken in an of itself it's more the little flavor bit that is slightly dumb as if your using a pistol (I stated earlier that at level one an Infinium has a pistol range of 60 feet) you're peppering down enemies at a pretty long range, and if a Samurai somehow did survive it's unlikely you would have the strength to pass his AC to deal at around 6 damage tops to him and have that drop him. But that's just me, no one ever got close to me but I'll get to that later. Also why this is only available to a level 3 on confuses me, as well as the 3ft range, when was the last time you could pistol whip someone three feet away unless you have really Really long arms. But hey Why even use my pistol anymore? I have a much better Rifle that gives me 3 shots an attack at level one now, that deal even more damage for an arbitrary reason, so it's base 2d8 damage a shot + 1d4 + whatever casings you have also your shooting from outside of most peoples land speed so if you can drop a full attack they're most likely dead before they can even know what hit them.
- Flash: When this grenade ignites it produces a bright flash that blinds enemies in a 10ft. radius for 1 turn.(amount of Flashes that can be held radius and duration of blindness increases periodically) opponent may roll a fortitude save to be blinded for half the amount of rounds the gun mage rolls for(min.1) since the gun mage cannot manifest flash energy from himself he must absorb the enrgy from another source of bright light.
- The scaling of this ability makes zero sense (Refer to the chart it's not hard to see how quickly you get lost in it), until level 15 amounts aren't noted and until level 15 radius and duration are mentioned but 15 onward they aren't. Also the implied range increment of grenades is 10ft while by the time you get this ability your blast range is already at 12.5ft? Again I normally work in multiples of 5 because that's how DnD grids work most of the time.
- Smoke: When this grenade ignites it spews for thick, billowing clouds of smoke in a 10' radius.(max 3 per day, amount increases by 2 every other level lvl4/+2, lvl6/+4, lvl8/+6, etc. until level 18 where the Gun mage can emit smoke in a 50' radius at will from his hands)
- Again why do we have something with the same range as you can throw it, at at 18? You're just a walking pollution cloud.
- Injection of Orodor: The Gun Mage can shoot a bullet of healing energy into a foe or enemy but since the Gun mage is not very practiced in healing not only does he feed off his own life force(hp) but he also cannot control the exact amount of health he gives before attempting to heal someone he must decide dice size and he rolls to see how much he loses and much his target gains(e.g. The gun mage attempts to fire an injection of Ordodor into a target he calls 1d10 before firing he takes 1d10 damage and his target gains 1d10 health) even if the Gun mage misses he still takes the damage from the die size he called the die size that the gun mage can call increases by levels)
- This probably made sense to someone at some point, I tried to use it but my DM was like. "huh?" when I tried to explain it, so I just tossed my party member a health potion and never used it again.
- Imbue Weapon: The Gun mage can infuse his weapon with Arcanic explosive power(only one handed weapons(2 handed weapons that are made able to be wielded with one hand are not included) your weapon does an extra 1d6 explosive damage, and the enemy is pushed back 15 ft. by the force your enemy can make a reflex save to only be blasted back half the distance.
- This became an insane headache for my DM once I started using my long range rifle, mostly because none of the guns other then the twin pistols are stated to be one handed, two handed or handed at all, my DM swore up and down until I brought this ability up he thought the guns hovered around me because it's so convoluted. Also again, you're using non multiples of 5 it's not how the standard mat works but that's just me.
- Alignment Transparency: Because of the continued use of your arcanic firearms and due to the fact that they are physically manifested through your own energy your alignment color is reflected and glows in your guns(When trying to Sense motive enemies get a +2).
- Lawful good: Neon Green Neutral Good: Bright Orange Chaotic Good: Violet Lawful Neutral: Hot Pink True Neutral: Transperent(see through but not invisible) Chaotic Neutral: Racing yellow Lawful Evil: Midnight Black Neutral Evil: Dark blue Chaotic Evil: Blood red
- While an interesting roleplay quirk it's practically fluff and useless fluff because it implies people know what the colors mean, and because of how a gunmage is described, and the fact they are rare as stated by the author in gunmage lore, that meant practically no one knew what they meant so although it's a good try, it's not a Sense motive +2 for checks against you because no one but no one knows that because that weird piece of metal and parts on your back is glowing Purple it means you're Chaotic Good aligned.
- Arcanic Long rifle: The Arcanic Long rifle can only use class-5 Magic bullets. After firing the Arcanic long rifle if within 30ft. of the enemy the Gun mage must skip his next round standard action in order to operate the weapons bolt action.(range 175ft.)(Pistol whip 1d6)
- This was my main weapon, with The eye of Elthor on it I had a base range increment of 350ft, far shot put me up at 525ft range increment, didn't matter I only could do 2d12 + 3d6 + 1 + 1d6 (imbue weapon) damage, with the stats I had at my full attack I could callshot a vein in a halfling's neck at 500ft and slice it open with a single shot. That's threading a very lethal needle from 500ft away, even for fantasy that's really impressive, albeit stupid as hell. It got even more stupid once I got Seeker of Eldrith and Black Bullet. The 30ft effect makes no sense flavor wise or balance wise, You hit someone within 30ft and you need to operate the bolt action? So 35ft you don't need to use bolt action? Well it's more clear then it once was, it used to state that the enemy skips their next standard action so the gun mage can operate the bolt action.
- Explosive Runes: The Gun mage can now write explosive runes upon any surface once a day(until lvl.20)The rune takes 5 minutes to write until level 17 then the runes take 1 standard action to write and are triggered by being read(except by the gun mage himself and anyone he specifically designates) Anyone next to the runes (close enough to read them) takes 6d6 damage with no saving throw; any other creature within 10 feet of the runes is entitled to a Reflex save for half damage. The object on which the runes were written also takes full damage (no saving throw).
- Something else I annoyed my DM with when I realized I was immune to force damage, I ascribed my own armor with this, and designated only people hostile to me would get effected by it. Boom, literally, I could walk through places with impunity because anyone who got close enough to me to read the explosive runes would be blown to hell and then I'd get some shots off on them before they can do anything and then after I won initiative I'd most likely kill them.
- Embankment of Destruction: Once a day the gun mage can create a barrier using Arcane energy and Imbue it with explosive force energy, The gun mage can restrict the barrier to 5ft. radius around him self if an enemy touches the barrier in any way he is inflicted with 12d8 damage and is forced back 45 ft. , the gun mage can extend this radius to 20ft. and if an enemy touches it he receives 8d8 damage and is blasted back 35 ft., The gun mage can further extend this radius to 35 ft. and if an enemy then touches it he receives 4d8 damage and is blasted back 15ft.(Huge creatures get a -5 to forced back distance, Gargantuans receive -10, and colossal's -20, all sizes below receive a +15). Enemies receive no reflex save for point blank force damage. Enemies can break the barrier by reducing its hp to zero(Small barrier 350hp, medium barrier 250hp, large barrier 100hp). After three rounds the Gun mage must make a concentration check(DC18) in order to keep it, every round thereafter the gun mage must roll another concentration check and the DC increases by 5 every round after the first concentration check.
- There comes a point where you just become impossible to attack, this was that point, drop this behind you, a very skilled rouge now can't sneak up on you anymore, and even if they tried you'd just blast a hole in them and move on. You can also practically take ten on most of the checks since the DC is so low for the level your at.
- Seeker of Eldrith: Weapon fires an explosive projectile that deals 5d20 force damage in a 20ft. radius any surviving enemies are thrown 40ft.enemies withing 5ft. of the explosion cannot make a reflex save.The seeker of Eldrith can only be used once a day and player must roll a 1d6 till he can use it again.
- This was fun to use at 500+ft call shooting people in the head with my sniper just to do the insane 2d12 + 4d6 + 5d20 + 1 damage, When you can blow apart a dragon's face with a single shot and then take down a bunch of people fighting along side him before you even roll for initiative you start to realize how broken a class is. For the record, I used no dex boosting items the whole campaign, all my gear was setup towards being able to move long distances so I could, once I noticed danger, get at range, get my surprise round off, then win initiative and then kill everything that's left over
- Black Bullet (Sp): At 20th level, an Infinium,Gun Mage may call upon help from an outsider to deliver them a deadly bullet once per day. A Black Bullet requires a full round to be summoned. The subject of a Black Bullet must make a Will save DC 15 +The Infinium,Gun Mage's level or die. If the save is successful, the subject still takes 10d10 damage. Firing a Black Bullet drains the Arcane Gunslinger, reducing their speed to half for 1 round and forcing them to skip their next action.
- That moment when you giggle to yourself while you get all your allies to buff your dex and damage as much as possible before loading in a black bullet into your sniper just to see if you can kill the big bad guy in one shot, and bar that, deal 2d12 + 4d6 + 5d20 + 10d10 + 1 + buffs damage. And then one many army his million man army with my LMG turning them all to Swiss cheese. What a fun way to end a campaign no?
- My DM didn't think so, DM found a loophole in the ex gunmage and used a curse to turn my character's levels into another class, thus ending my rampage as the least equipped non monk, mono class, probably ever to make it to epic levels.
- TLDR: Practically everything breaks down in a campaign, I wasn't even min maxing at all in the one I ran a gunmage in, from just the class abilities I was incredibly powerful, and with just adding in the fighter amount of feats I had, I was practically min maxed without even trying. This class is broken beyond broken, if negative numbers were valid in the system it would be deep in them.
- Few new fixes
- Black Bullet (Sp): Can't stack with other shots, it's it own casing and gun damage is not applied.
- Seeker of Eldrith: See above
- Imbue Weapon: Make it clear what's one handed and whats not, and on that note.
- Pistol Whip: Just say melee range, don't use three feet, unless they are floating weapons no one has a three foot reach with their arms.
- One thing about casings for the record, they need not be able to be enchanted, I had an enchantment on them, good lord I've forgotten the name but if memory serves it allows for some curving of ammunition in flight based on the range increment, and since the lowest increment I had was pistol at 120ft I was basically shooting around corners at times.