Talk:Epic Rogue of Seven Sneak Attacks a Round a Creature (3.5e Optimized Character Build)

BAB progression and other Problems

Base Attack Bonus stops increasing at the normal rate after ECL 20. After that point, you a granted an "Epic Attack Bonus" that increases every other level, this bonus does not grant more attacks. So, you need to fix that. Also, if you are going to take fighter levels, to take epic bonus feats with the fighter bonus feats, you need to be an epic level fighter(ie: fighter level 21+). PS. This build is defeated by a DC 25 tumble check, somehow, I don't think the ultimate monk is defeated by that. that being said, this build could go interesting places. Take 1 level of wizard, and you can take Golem Strike(a fantasic addition to a fast character). Or, you could take a level of cleric, for grave strike, vampires, lichs, and even some epic abominations are undead, and neuter your build. Not a bad idea you have here, but it does not really work as written, yet. --Ganre 23:46, 25 December 2009 (MST)

Epic fixed, and the tumble check is for passing through an enemy's square, not his reach, so it's not defeated. I'll try to replace the fighter levels with rogue (the monk levels are fine though) and see if there is a better feat for Bbn (I still want that +10 speed) 24.22.117.251 09:33, 26 December 2009 (MST)

Feats fixed, managed to keep the big powers of import and get some more sneak attack damage, but lost the weapon focus. 24.22.117.251 09:56, 26 December 2009 (MST)

How are you triggering the AoO if not them moving out of threatened squares? I mean, sure, if they decide to shoot or throw something at you w/o Arrow Mind up, or stand up from prone, sure SA AoO all you want. Also, Opportunist would work, in a good team. but just expecting them to walk toward you and letting you bash them for 700 damage every round, i don't think that's going to work. --Ganre 20:43, 27 December 2009 (MST)

You can deflect all range attacks, including magical and extremely bulky ones, that go through one of your squares. Without having to roll. They are limited in options.Saposhiente 17:27, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

BAB is still wrong; you don't get any more attacks after level 20. Since you get 3 attacks per round from having a BAB between 11 and 15, you still only get 3 attacks from high BAB, even if your BAB+EAB gets higher. In other words, since you only have 3 attacks at level 20, you'll only have 3 attacks at level 40. If you put in 4 levels of full-BAB classes prior to that, you can get 4 attacks (but never more). --edwin 17:03, 28 November 2010 (MST)

Combat Expertise and Power Attack

After going home and reviewing my handy PHB, i notice another problem with the build. Page 92 and page 98 of the PHB clearly state that the bonuses AND penalties from Combat Expertise and Power Attack last until your next turn, so a -20 is a -20 on all those AoOs, sorry. --Ganre 05:19, 26 December 2009 (MST)

It said that it is for attack rolls, which are handily defined to be the normal attacks of the round (assuming that the wiki's srd is correct) (24.22.117.251 09:27, 26 December 2009 (MST)

That is just a sad exploitation of some ambiguous wording. If your DM allows that, fine. But seriously, you make an attack roll when making an attack of opportunity. The feats clearly say until your next turn. It seems fairly obvious what the intention was, even if the wording failed to make that happen. -- Jota 12:22, 26 December 2009 (MST)

You have a point, so I have made notes on alternate building if that is disallowed.Saposhiente 22:55, 26 December 2009 (MST)

So, by your definition, an AoO does not involve an attack roll? --Ganre 20:40, 27 December 2009 (MST)

The definition of "attack roll" in this wiki's SRD includes the phrase "on your turn". I accounted for "DM alternate rulings". Saposhiente 17:25, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

"Attack Roll" is defined several different ways in the PHB. I suggest you read pg. 139, which says "An attack roll represents your attempts to strike your opponent". That is the definition we use at our table, and I suspect it is the definition used at most tables. I see d20SRD says "An attack roll represents your attempt to strike your opponent on your turn in a round."(bold added for emphasis), which is your definition. I suppose this build comes down to the player's ability to outwit and out-rules-lawyer the DM, an act usually rewarded at my table. But be warned, if you defend that an attack roll is defined by a roll on your turn, a mean DM might rule that Attacks of Opportunity must be made without an attack roll (which prohibits them all together). --User:Badger (not logged in)

That's why I made the other option, although at this point Option 2 could probably become Option 1. Sorry guys, but I hit a huge timecunch recently.Saposhiente 06:46, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

However at the level of this build you'll have archers and casters that can eliminate your AoO completely when using ranged weapons or casting a spell, and there's also the concept of low level spells like blink. --PixieDragon 06:06, 14 October 2010 (MDT)

That's what Extraordinary Deflection and Infinite Deflection are for, with no ranged attacks (even touch attacks) hurting you. Even with a 50% miss chance, you are still doing massive damage. Saposhiente 22:35, 26 October 2010 (MDT)

Another Option

According to this, you can pick up ANY feat at level 10 rogue without fulfilling the prereqs. So you could pick Extraordinary Deflection or Infinite Deflection (or any other feat you fancy) with the bonus feat without needing to become epic.

Sweet! That makes this build effective much quicker. I'll go factor that in. Post-Thought: I doubt any DM would allow it thoughSaposhiente 04:38, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

Quick Draw

quick draw doesn't let you sheath as a free action. only draw. also it only states weapons. most DM's should let you draw a wand or rod. --Name Violation 05:39, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Using a wand is a standard action, and sheathing one is a move action. So, if you do not need to move more than five feet, you have enough time.Saposhiente 06:46, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

What and How?

Even though this stuff sounds cool, I'm not sure how you are supposed to get seven sneak attacks in a row or whatever and I also hope you realize that after you take a level in monk, you can't multi class any more or you lose all special monk abilities, and if you have two classes that are more than two levels apart and with this you would take HUGE penalties seeing as you have a level 36 class, two level 2 classes and a level 1 class. Also, base attack bonus stops progessing at the normal rate after 20 level it uses the epic base attack bonus. See the problem??? --Io 01:23, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

You don't actually lose Monk abilities, I checked that out, but the rest of your points are correct. Turns out monks can't level any more, but they keep their stuff. In reality, this class is taking 15 levels to to exploit a non-existent loophole to make several AoO per round. Until that point you are a weak rogue. There are a ton of problems with this build, and now that we've identified them I think we could work to fix them, assuming the original author is ok with that. --Badger 21:58, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

All classes but Rogue are within 1 level of each other so you have minimal/no (if you are a half-elf) multiclass penalties. The BAB has already been fixed for Epic. You get seven sneak attacks if you are Large and someone charges you, more if they run past you. And sure, I have no problems with fixations.Saposhiente 06:46, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Even still you can't make more than one AoO against a single oppenent in a given round, however you can still make multiple AoO's against everyone else as long as it's just one per oppenent.PixieDragon

You can make more than one, you just can't take more than one per opportunity. Forexample, Ragnar moves through my threatened square and shoots a bow. He just invoked 2 AoOs, i can hit him once every time he triggers one. So every time he moves out of a threatened square (assuming i have combat reflexes), I can smack him. --Ganre 05:40, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

You only ever get one AoO for movement: Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more than one opportunity for that opponent. So yes, the claimed number of AoO should be 1 (2 for being charged, thanks to Hold the Line). Further all movement-based AoO are negated by a DC 25 Tumble check (15 for tumbling through threatened area+10 for accelerated tumble), trivial at level 40, and ranged combat AoO is negated by the Combat Archery feat. This leaves the AoO from Hold the Line your only predictable AoO you get. I'd strongly suggest Thicket of Blades stance (ToB). This build needs a fair bit of work. --edwin 17:12, 24 November 2010 (MST)

Rebuild ideas

Just a suggestion, but here is how I would modify your first 4 levels. If you took Levels 1 and 2 as Ftr, 3 as Bbn, and 4-20 as Rog you could be a lot more powerful at the beginning. You'd be losing any SA damage until level 4 (at which point you'd be doing less), but you'd have a higher BAB, get that improved movement speed, and bonus feats. Level 1 you'd have Exotic Weapon Proficiency(Spiked Chain), and Weapon Finesse (in 3.5 you don't have to select a weapon, it covers a bunch) as your fighter bonus feat; Level 2 brings you Combat Reflexes as a Fighter Bonus Feat; and Level 3 gets you Hold the Line(which I personally would lose for something else, maybe Power Attack sooner, and take Great Cleave later). Some of the pros of this altered initial build include Higher BAB (to get that 4th iterative attack by level 20), and Feats come sooner, so you can be standing in the fray with your spiked chain at level 3, instead of level 9. Also, with my build you are DEX-focused from level 1, which is nice for Combat reflexes and Weapon Finesse. The only real downside between my first few levels and yours is the SA loss, which is important, but you can make it up. --Badger 22:22, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Sounds good, although the other drawback is that your idea delays the availability of they rogue bonus feats (still need integration) (see: Another Option)Saposhiente 06:46, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Feats

Hey, I was looking at the fighter's guide by Dictum and it mentioned a lot of useful feats that I couldn't find on the wiki. Can someone look into this? Thx :)Saposhiente 03:40, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

All the feats list the source book it's found in, if you need help figuring out what the abbreviations are I'm sure someone could help. --PixieDragon 05:42, 14 October 2010 (MDT)

How many hands?

Deflect Arrows ( Infinite Deflection/Exceptional Deflection ) requires a free hand, but you're wielding a two-handed weapon. Transferring the weapon to one hand is a free action (and, it seems, transferring it back to two is a free action with QD), but it doesn't appear that you can adapt in time to invoke the action (that is, you can't do it when it's not your turn): If you hold the chain in one hand you won't threaten any area (since you can't attack with it), but you'd be able to deflect arrows. Even Quick Draw won't help on that; a fighter with quick draw doesn't threaten an area just because he could draw a weapon he could attack with, it is based on whether he is holding a weapon he can attack with, and you're not. On the other hand, you could hold the weapon in both hands and threaten AoO, but then you do not meet the requirements for Deflect Arrows (so you don't even get to act). Unless you are a Thri-Kreen or Marilith or something, or under the effect of girallon's blessing... --edwin 10:44, 27 November 2010 (MST)

Dire Werebat

adding the dire werebat template to this character could greatly improve it in some areas, for exmple: the template grants an incredible +12 to dex in hybrid form, and some great sensory bonuses like blindsense, alertness, +4 spot, +4 listen, and scent. also in hybrid form, the character becomes large size, so with enlarge person, the character becomes huge, and the spiked chain reach can be increased to 30 ft. however, this template adds 4 animal hd and 2-3 effective levels, so it interrupts the progression.