Talk:Demon Brawler (3.5e Class)

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Balance Concerns[edit]

Look before this goes any further i wanted to state this class is designed for high tension campaigns where the normal enemies could be bosses in other campaigns so please stop messing with it it is designed to be like this for a reason since the campaigns i run have crazy things in them that no phb class could even begin how to comprehend how to take down without a straight up army so these were designed for my campaigns first and foremost and i have worked tirelessly in trying to tone it down so just stop please? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by AmericanSephiroth (talkcontribs). Please sign your posts.

Hi AmericanSephiroth, thanks for using the talk page - I think it should've been used sooner to talk about any issues.
I appreciate you're been toning this down, and I don't think there's much point in discussing the content here until you're finished. But please be aware of our Constructive Editing guidelines - D&D Wiki is designed to be a repository with articles that could reasonably be used in a large number of campaigns, not specifically high or low-power ones. We cannot simply be a private storage space for all homebrew articles that essentially only work for your specific campaign circumstances. Collaborative editing is encouraged.
As I said - Until you're finished rejigging this, I don't see a need to slap templates on it. Please just keep in mind that we do have standards for the balance of articles submitted, so if you intend to keep this article overly "unbalanced", there may still be an issue, depending on the finished article, when you're done. Rest assured though, that no content will be deleted without prior warning. And all deleted content can be restored if necessary. --SgtLion (talk) 22:05, 6 June 2017 (UTC)
Is it acceptable to keep something unbalanced if it's intentionally so, as long as there's a design disclaimer on it? This is the second such page that I've encountered. — Geodude671 (talk | contribs)‎ . . 22:14, 6 June 2017 (UTC)
Hey! :D So, first of all, if it's for a personal campaign and can't be used by many others, what's the harm in them adapting it to more general needs? Secondly, that's bound to happen unless you post more stuff for high-power campaigns, like a campaign setting, sourcebook or some other sort of guidelines for using it, otherwise no one knows how to use it :(
A class really shouldn't give ability score increases as features. "Gain bonus feat "Awareness" (if already taken gain bonus feat)" isn't a proper feature name. BAB and save progression isn't rules-compliant. Skills at level 1 should be x 4 points. Some sections need either deleted or completed. That's aside from whether it needs balanced or not.--GamerAim (talk) 00:34, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
Ok i just wanted to state that for all intents and purposes the class is basically complete and i would like to say that if anyone wishes to make a variant please feel free i will not take any offense at all. but i do want to clarify something and state the actual intent and purpose of this class just in case any adjustments are made. First, I made this class for a friend who does not have an account on this wiki and is terrible at writing and other things like that he came up with about 75-85% or so of the ideas and general concept (the only thing he had absolutely no input on was the rage of hell ability which i designed and was originally intended for a ring of power idea (which was scrapped) that had a chance of possessing the wielder and based on which level it was was which form it used also it originally had 5 levels i just removed the strongest and weakest forms and converted it into a class ability with some beefy drawbacks) and originally the ideas were even more over the top but i tried to bring them a bit more in line with something less bullshit ill admit im not the best at balancing and had intended to do some serious toning down on this behemoth but sadly time got away from me due to personal reasons.
Now the reason this class seems so powerful was because it was designed for a d&d novice see my friend wanted to join my campaign but really had no idea how to do very much and he said he wanted to be powerful but specifically stated he did NOT wish to be a caster because he felt they were too complicated and he was also worried since basically everyone knows that non casters are redundant piles of useless at very high levels in 3.5e (especially with some of the add-ons yeesh) and i run high level campaigns even when my players start at level 2 (like my current campaign) give me like 2 months and everyone will be in mid to late teens because i give out buckets of xp because idk actually. so the class was meant originally to be a peer to wizards and also be able to seriously dampen the plans of super high level npc mages because as everyone knows one bad spell from a lich can equal a tpk especially if the dm is a fan of flashy/strong magic (i am) so if you wish to suggest any type of correction or any suggestion please let me know.
also i know that stat gains are not normal rewards for level progression but to be completely fair i made this class with the idea that since it is incapable of magic (i know the aspect can use magic btw but it is under dm control and as such doesn't really need to be extra difficult to control and also that means i get to have a bit of fun using the wrong spell at the wrong time and stuff like that :) )and also incapable of wearing armor that provides a meaningful impact i felt it needed a little bit of a kick in the pants to keep it from being to weak (or just being a shitty and vaguely edgy monk with a greatsword) also the con gains are welcome have you seen some of those hp costs? but i welcome any grammatical clean-up or anything but i would just like to make a humble request that if you do want to make any major changes/change the intent of this class from this point on please do so as a variant of this class because honestly i would love to see it and if you would just send me the link thanks for your time and i would appreciate future suggestions--AmericanSephiroth (talk) 10:17, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
So if I understand you correctly, this class is intended to be a better Monk on par with the power level of, say, a sorcerer? That's fine, as long as you put a design disclaimer stating that this content deviates from the standard set by its edition. — Geodude671 (talk | contribs)‎ . . 13:15, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
"Designed for more difficult campaigns" doesn't quite cut the mustard I'm afraid.
  • How much more difficult? How does CR change? This will help us work out how balanced the class is against the new CRs
  • Do all the players have to be a demon brawler for this campaign, then? Or can they be other classes? Are the other classes also suitably overpowered?
  • If CR 10 is now the equivalent of CR 1, say, why not just leave CR as it is and have players start at level 10?
  • Or you could make a balanced class as a baseline, then give all the players a suite of features to help them cope with the campaign. Marasmusine (talk) 14:01, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
Ok I see your point and i will answer these as best i can
1, how much more difficult? on average most encounters in the campaign it was designed for (mine originally) have between 2-6 cr more than normal and many of the enemies have inflated stats, numbers, or both
2, no not everyone has to be a demon brawler for the campaign they can be other classes and usually are on some level of equality power wise and if they are not i tend to give magic items and xp/stat points out like candy anyways if 1 player seems to be pulling ahead of the rest of the party and all of the current classes in said campaign are on this wiki and most didn't or don't have balance disclaimers
3, While that is possible many of the bosses and things i throw at the party would likely have massive crs that would be hard to pin down i make all of my own boss encounters by hand and use pre-made stuff for other encounters i'll give an example at the bottom
4, I honestly have tried and that is why i have done so much extra work with this and it is honestly hard to make a balanced class considering how lopsided the balance already is in 3.5e in favor of casters so i wished to attempt to create a melee combatant that could actually deal with problems other than just saying let the wizard/sorcerer deal with it all by like level 20. also i do give the party lots of bonus feature or at least try to but half the party wanted less things to keep track of and my friend who i made this for didn't want a mountain of things to keep tabs on since he said magic users had too much work to handle for his taste so this class distills that into a powerful but easier to use form especially considering magic caster's could say polymorph themselves into like a goddamned elder wyrm or something (I've edited the disclaimer to reflect this — Geo 02:45, 8 June 2017 (UTC))

Example of last boss players fought in my campaign
Havoc Construct(tbh i never actually gave it a name consider this a place holder): has roughly 5-6k hp (on average it uses d100s for hp rolls), 175 strength (bases all it's attacks off this including its magical damage attacks), inflicts fort dc 45+ curses with each attack, average damage is in triple digits, has several unique attacks, can summon allies, has dr 55, takes 25% less damage from all sources unless it's a crit (it has an exposed weak spot), immune to ranged (read as bows,crossbows,guns) attacks unless they are both called shots and critical hits (is unique construct), will immediately get a turn and counter attack whoever uses magical damage on it, immune to rust/disintegration/instant death, also regenerates 35hp per action (for both it and any player) unless you destroy a hidden object in it's room
this was the shorter version i could make an actual page for it but i didn't want to throw an extra template on here to make this page huge so do you see now my original point there is basically no normal class or party that has a realistic chance against this monster and i'll admit i have a weakness for kaiju battles like this so i hope this clears everything up--AmericanSephiroth (talk) 21:21, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
I don't 100% understand the response above, I will come back to those. Instead I'm going to look at the actual mechanics. (unindent intended)
  • First, I note there are a few "dead levels", but there are levels where you gain multiple features. Could you move things so there's a better spread?
  • None of the features have Ex, Sp or Su
  • Looking at 1st level. Demonic Awakening says the character may choose to become a demon brawler, but obviously that's already the case. You just need to link to SRD:Natural Weapons, you don't need to explain (only some) of what that means.
  • In summary, at 1st level, human demon brawler is Large, has a natural weapon that deals 1d4 damage; or I can wield a Large greatsword (dealing 3d6) in one hand. I have to ask what the point of the natural weapon is. Even with "enhanced blows" (which I think related to the natural weapon), you don't get iterative attacks with it, so two manufactured weapons will always be better.
  • The disclaimer says that it's an "upgrade to the monk" but I can't see what the similarity is.
  • All those percentages :/
  • Lots of references to devils. In D&D demons and devils are different things.
  • Demonic Aspect is incomprehensible. I have no idea what it does.
  • Same for Rage of Hell. "gains a mode of power"? "plus 3 to all attributes"? "freely afterwards take 5d6hp damage per turn with regeneration and damage resistance disabled"? "negative energy laser attack"? " a pure evil attack"? "risk being damaged by corruption"? "a fireball for aoe (50ft) damage"?
  • Same for most of the class. Marasmusine (talk) 10:25, 10 June 2017 (UTC)
If you intent to make a high-magic and low rewards campaign, then put that into the DD template. People need to know how you intend this class to be used. Also, wording the abilities so that they are coherent is important. --Green Dragon (talk) 11:25, 10 June 2017 (UTC)
to Marasmusine
  • done
  • you are right working to correct this just need to sort which is which honestly i don't know what to label them :/
  • the they may choose thing was just added for flavor and adding a story thing related to something else about taking in large amounts of demonic magic and i kinda forgot to add links my bad
  • honestly it kinda is a remnant from an old build from the class where it's sword was designed for big hits while the natural weapons were for combo strikes (upwards of 5 per attack or so) that the person who asked me to write didn't like very much my bad but i kinda just left that in there since idk felt like it may have some kind of appeal
  • didn't add that myself that was done by geodude i merely made a reference to how i felt the class was monk-esque because it was originally designed to do lot's of hits while lacking armor but looking at it now it is merely an oddball reference to a class that uses a big weapon while wearing nothing
  • got me there but i like percentages and all are additive so they aren't exactly overwhelming but that's just my 2 cents
  • Tbh the class was designed with the idea that you could either be LE or CE and the name would change to reflect that i honestly just didn't feel like typing everything twice
  • i hope my rewording fixed that it is mostly meant to be basically an assistant to the class that can also end up hurting the class (think rebellious but powerful familiar)
  • cleaned up the grammar a bit sorry some of this stuff was written during a phase of insomnia and i write a bit like i talk so sometimes things come out weird
  • again my bad mode of power= usable transformation, was missing a comma there the point is if the ability is used past the turn limit the demon brawler begins taking damage perpetually until it is turned off and the demon brawlers damge resistance and natural regeneration is removed until this condition is met, negative energy ray attack(note i usually refer to rays as lasers), treated as evil for purposes of damage reduction, uses a corruption mechanic that can lead to possession, 50ft radius fireball(as spell fireball) attack thought that one was clear perhaps not?
  • i think maybe i cleaned up what you meant now assume anything else is just flair i'm a bit of a dramatic sod

to green dragon wait what? i thought i did or maybe we are on different pages here can you elaborate please?--AmericanSephiroth (talk) 12:40, 10 June 2017 (UTC)
Well, there's still lots of wording that needs improving, but let's return to balance.
It's still not really clear on how exactly how people can use this in their games. To summarize what you said above:
  • The PC is suitable for CRs of 2 to 6 higher than expected.
  • But also, the enemies have inflated statistics
  • Players with other classes receive more magic item rewards.
So is it correct to say that you are making monsters more powerful without changing their CR? If the monsters are inflated for their CR and the PC is inflated for their level, that's the equivalent of having the PC at a higher level fighting unaltered monsters (or "inflated" monsters but with the CR correctly calculated).
There are two ways of doing this using existing mechanics. 1) You can make this a prestige class with a minimum level. 2) You can identify the parts of the class that are overpowered and bundle them in a Template with an LA.
When magic items are rewarded, how do you prevent the demon brawler from taking an equal share? Marasmusine (talk) 07:56, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

ok i agree the wording needs work and at some point i'll clean it up or if anyne else want's to be my guest
The class as a whole is meant to stand more eye level with casters as i said before. it is not unknown to people that as far as 3.5 goes an unchecked spell caster can be the single most broken thing there is in the game (polymorph into golden elder wyrm anyone?). the primary use of this class is meant to be as a replacement melee class to give people who dislike using casters some purpose in battle past the late teens besides meat-shield/spectator since realistically most other non caster classes have no real purpose once the mage gains the super reality warping stuff (this is only made worse by any type of supplements)
  • well that is if i did the CR correctly for all i know i could be way off
  • the ones that arent created by me are often 50-150% stronger and have greater numbers and most of my bosses if actually placed on the wiki could easily have 3 digit CRs
  • well to be completely honest with you i dont actually calculate CR very often i just beef enemies up or tone them down until i feel they are appropriate and since i dont record my sessions other than as notes that are probably incomprehensible to most people why would i log CRs? so for all i know i could be right or i could accidentally make a goblin with a CR of 35 and if i mess up i just tone things down or amp them up mid fight who's gonna know besides me? and while your point is also fair i made this class because most of the vanilla classes besides caster's are painfully boring and plain (this goes double for fighter) and are just simply underpowered compared to the mage classes that is why i made this class at the behest of my friend Blake who wanted something strong but not worthless at high levels that was also not a caster
1. in my opinion most prestige classes fall into the very doomed category of cripplingly overspecialized or just not worth the level dip but that is just me. 2. again i could but the class already gains a level adjustment at level 20 anyways and again my point stands that i honestly do not believe this class in it's current form is needing a level adjustment since again it is not as powerful as the class it is meant to peer which also does not have a level adjustment so on this point i will have to respectfully disagree with you
honestly alignment locked items are how i go about it since the class simply cannot be good just throw in a slight surplus of good aligned items and you are officially golden--AmericanSephiroth (talk) 02:47, 13 June 2017 (UTC)
If you want a martial character that isn't worthless, the Warblade (from Tome of Battle) and the Wild Shape Ranger (from UA I think?) are both good official options, at least from what I've heard. — Geodude671 (talk | contribs)‎ . . 04:39, 13 June 2017 (UTC)
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