Talk:Conjurer (5e Class)

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Discussion Comments[edit]

Feel free to leave comments if anything seems to overpowered or underpowered, but please attempt to be positive when writing about the issue.

Couldn't I just be a wizard who specialises in the conjuration school? The school of conjuration arcane tradition also states that wizards that follow the school of conjuration are called conjurers, so a name change might be in order. SirSprinkles (talk) 23:32, 28 October 2016 (MDT)

One question: Does "You can only have up to your Conjurer level times 2 number of summons at a time." mean you can have 40 CR 7 Summons at Level 20? Because 40 Young Black Dragons are ... well I would say too strong. And you would have to add your Bonded Summon to that as well, for example a Young Gold/Red Dragon. Or you could summon an Adult Black Dragon and 20 Young Black Dragons and your Bonded Summon although 20 Young ones would probably be better than 1 Adult.
Or is it meant as you can have summons of a combined CR of 40? Because 5 Young Black Dragons + Bonded Summon or 1 Adult Black Dragon + 2 Young Black Dragons + 1 Young White Dragon + Bonded Summon at Level 20 sounds more resonable.
Some sort of limitation would be good too. Like make it a Pool of CR of level x2 per short rest or something.
- sorry no account, 18 May 2017

Me again. I realized that there is a contradiction in the Summoning feature. It says "The creature stays summoned until it is reduced to 0 hit points, dismissed as a bonus action, or you summon another creature using this feature." and later "You can only have up to your Conjurer level times 2 number of summons at a time.". That is a problem.
After thinking and rereading everything through I would propose some more changes.

  • Together with the above mentioned limitation of a combined summon CR of Conjurere Level x 2 as well as the Pool of CR per short rest, I would limit the number of summons to Conjurere Level x 2 or 10 or the mentioned combined summon CR of Conjurere Level x 2, whichever is lower, so that you cant spam 320 Kobolds at Lv 20. Otherwise all that rolling would kill the DM.
  • The 'CR Allotted' should be pushed up a notch, starting at 1/8 and going up a tier every uneven level [so 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 15th, 17th, 19th] up to CR 7.
  • I would also exchange 'Bonded Summon' with 'Powerful Summons'. The exchange would be because getting 'Powerful Summons' at Level 14 would mean you can get the CR 10 creature you get through 'Bonded Summon' [which you get at Level 20] at Level 17 (or level 15 if going through with pushing the allotted CR one tier up), effectivly reducing 'Bonded Summon' to a +1 number of creatures you can summon with the added flavor of memory, which would be pretty weak for a Level 20 feature.
  • Also change 'Powerful Summons' to simply take its CR from the Pool like the other summons would, instead of half the Pool. My reasoning beeing that you can summon a CR 14 creature for what would be worth 20 Points of CR, which isnt really worth it.
Lets compare what you would get for a CR 14 Summon costing effectivly 20 CR woth of Points:
  • a) For 20 CR-Points you could get 2 Young Copper Dragons and 1 Young Brass Dragon. They would have 119 and 110 Hit Points [348 together] as well as +7 and +9 to hit respectivly, have a 3 part multiattack doing 15 piercing damage on the first and 11 slashing damage on the second and third attack [111 if all hit], AC 17, 40 ft breath weapon [DC 14 Dex, 40 and 42 damage] and 30 ft breath effect [DC 14 Con]. There would also be the possibility of a flanking bonus, since there would be 3 cretures.
  • b) The CR 14 Adult Copper Dragon for 20 CR-Points would have 184 Hitpoints, +11 to hit, 3 part multiattack for 17 piercing and two times 13 slashing [43 if all hit] with Frightful Presence [DC 16 Wis in 120 ft.], AC 18, 60 ft breath weapon [DC 18 Dex, 54 damage], 60 ft breath effect [DC 18 Con], 3 Legendary Resistances per day and the Legendary Action per turn [+ 15 bludgeoning damage -> 58 damage if all hit <or> Percepiton check <or> 10 ft radius DC 19 Dex with + 13 bludgeoning damage and kocked prone on fail and the dragon can then fly up to half its flying speed -> 56 damage if all hit] .
So might be just prefence, but option a) sound better for me. But exchangeing 14 CR-Points for CR 14 sounds much better IMO.

- sorry no account, 19 May 2017

...Some sort of argument for/against my points would have been nice, instead of simply editing wordlessly. But with the recent changes, while I prefere the Powerful Summon as it is now, a Cr 10 and CR 7 creature as summons at Level 20 seems pretty meh to me.
That is a CR 10 and a CR 7 with more Health than normal + Spellcasting [all lists] + major Conjuration Buffs at Level 20.
Compare that to a School of Conjuration-Wizard who gets Spellcasting [Wizard-List] + Spellslot-Recovery + Spell-Mastery + Teleport after every Conjuration Spell + minor Conjuration Buffs.
While that sounds balanced overall, something seems lacking. That void was previously filled by the number of summons you could have at all time, which could be boosted with Conjuration Spells. But that was probably the problem since 10+1 summons + at max. 8 spell-summons would be too much. Still, something rubs me the wrong way, I just cant say what.
- sorry no account, 20 May 2017


I’m a dm and next time I run a one shot with pre made characters (so probebly sometime in the next few weeks or potentially this weekend) I’ll have this class to play test. Is gonna. Be a one shot though so what level do you guys think needs the most testing? --Ayan forever DM (talk) 16:45, 19 June 2019 (MDT)

I'd imagine most likely around 3rd level and past that, it has a number of benefits that could stack up for later levels but honestly it is a class to be run by somebody who knows the creatures like the DM, thanks for offering too. If you have any comments regarding it beforehand or after. I'll try to fix or discuss them before your one shot.

Joter (talk) 23:50, 19 June 2019 (GMT)

Aight I’ll run it where most classes spend most of their time, the mid levels. So I’ll run it at my usual one shot level, 12. I think I know a player who will like this class, I’ll shoot it by him to see if he’s interested. I’ll also do some controlled testing on it by using it to play through some encounters. I should have all my results by about this same time next week. I’ll do one more read through and shoot you any questions. It helps that the player I have in mind tends to play druids and dms a bit himself, so he should make good use of this class. --Ayan forever DM (talk) 17:00, 19 June 2019 (MDT)
I’ll save my suggestions for after I do some play testing, but besides that one thing I need clarification on, is can you summon outside of battle?

You can summon your Minor Summon outside of battle yes. There's no real time limit for how long that lasts up, but there is an amount of times that you can do it for and only have 1 at once. By resummoning you can change the summoned shape as mentioned too. Joter (talk) 17:16, 19 June 2019 (MDT)

Ah extra summoning made me think as you leveled up you could summon more things at once. The biggest suggestion I have that I know play testing won’t change is have some in class description for knowing what you can and can’t summon. I’m thinking something similar to how a sorcerrer learns new spells. Either that or some way of spending down time based on their cr. Just because I think no matter what they are a bit too versitile right now, and it is harder for players to manage what they summon. Especially with apps like fight club that let you save creature statistics, it seems more practical for someone to commit to a certain summon, as unlike a Druid restricted to beasts, they can summon almost anything. Alternitvly so restrict them to a certain type of creature, but this is my least favorite idea. Anyway thanks for the answer --Ayan forever DM (talk) 17:25, 19 June 2019 (MDT)
I have some ideas to fill up the dead levels I'm aware you get a new higher level spell slot at these levels but IMO if you don't go wizard and make all of these no feature level it doesn't make sense to only do three, especially since you don't get anything for 8th or 6th but do for 7th and 9th, but it's still not every other (which would also make sense) since you still get features for 2nd level and 3rd level. First move the lvl 12 you always pass concentration saving throws on conjuration spells to lvl 15, since you already get an ability score improvement at level 12 and it is definitely a strong enough bonus to be reasonable as a lvl 15 feature. At level 11 allow them to pick one extra type of creature they can summon and for level 7, I'm thinking you can cast the spell creation as a 7th level spell without expending a spell slot. You can only use this feature a number of times equal to your intelegence modifier (minimum of 1) times. You regain all uses during a long rest. I know creation is technically an illusion spell, but honestly seems more like a conjuration spell to me, and while yes it is similar to the feature minor conjuration, it is more versitile and strong, both because you can make bigger objects, but especially because you can use it to make Adamantine, as well as walls that can take damage gives it notable advantages over minor conjuration. I am not an expert at making class features but it just seems some levels are far better then others. --Ayan forever DM (talk) 09:04, 20 June 2019 (MDT)

I'll be taking all of these comments into account, but with regards to the "dead levels" each of those at least has some form of increase, whether that be the spell slots, the actual origin features giving 2 more spell options, another cantrip, or the summoning increase. The 12th to 15th level does seem to make sense, although Creation as a 7th level spell does not. Although I agree that it should be added in as a spell, I was planning on looking through all of the schools to find spells that seemed like Conjuration either way. I'm honestly not so sure as to why picking Wizard would be good for this, but either way, another feature could be done. I picked this up some time ago when it was only half completed, so there were not too many ideas to work from. Perhaps a planning for levels is in order. Joter (talk) 16:51, 20 June 2019 (GMT)

Aight, thanks for looking over them and sorry if I was sounding demanding I was just giving my ideas, I did admittedly forget about the orgin spell increase, I was simply comparing it to wizard as they don't gain a feature every level (besides first) that they gain a new tier spell slot. To me as it follows no pattern it does not make much sense. But that is just my opinion. Also yeah I think I made a typo with creation being cast at a high level besides 5. Either way it probably wouldn't work well as a feature as it is so similar to minor conjuration I was just brain storming there. Either way I have set everything up for the one shot on Saturday. Working on some stuff on roll 20 so probably won't be active again here until I do get back from play testing this class, see ya to everyone until then. --Ayan forever DM (talk) 10:40, 20 June 2019 (MDT)

Changes in Regards to Comments[edit]

  • After a picking up of the class, the issues with the CR has been fixed up, with the minor summoning having limits that increase over time, although there is still a CR 10 and 7 at 20th level, which does appear like it would not be so useful by that point, apart from fluff.
  • The idea with the Conjurer is that it does summon others, for example a humanoid could be made, by 1st level, a commoner ally could be around. However this is still up to the DM for what could be formed. Now without any legendary features
  • Origins subclasses for the class means that they can now have some extra fluff in terms of where they came from, and try to adjust around those. All limited to a maximum of 10 spells to be prepared by 9th Level, in addition to the 9th level, and if int was 20, then 5+9+10 = 24 spells prepared. Which does appear like a lot, but is similar to a Cleric, Druid and so on.
  • The spell list is purely made up of Conjuration magic. Mage recovery has been added also for the spell casting, however seen as this increases like everything else over levels, it might impact at later levels.
  • There are gaps between some levels where there are no features, but at these same ones. The CR is bumped up and another spell slot added, so this is not an issue


Alright, a few things have been changed, first off the naming of the feature "Summoning Increase" has been changed to Summoning Advancement, to show more of a progression, there has also been some rewording of the Minor Summoning feature, where the player can now pick one type of creature to summon, some fey, fiends and so on, where the fluff is in regards to this basically appearing more like the find familiar spell, but with advancements. This is partly a buff to the feature, which should be good, and with playtesting from Ayan forever DM, it can be seen how this ends up. As this feature is a benefit from Find Familiar, the spell has been removed from the list additionally. So no two birds on either shoulder to make yourself like Odin. Joter (talk) 11:01, 20 June 2019 (GMT)

To do[edit]

  • Playtest to see if the class appears balanced, including for later levels despite the fact that everything increases over time.
  • Possibly find a way to list out all of the creature types for minor summoning, and consider balancing with regards to having Arcane Recovery, minor summoning, spell casting all on the increase for each level after 3.
  • Check over levels to see what benefits are provided

Last changed by Joter (talk) 14:00, 9 June 2019 (GMT)

Results from play testing[edit]

-Origin spells need to be removed or reworked. As it stands if you pick the wizard origin, there is very little reason to play a wizard as as opposed to this. Having all those wizard spells is very strong and makes them overly versatile. -Mage recovery needs to be reduced or removed, as almost all their spells are concentration, and last for a long amount of time for multiple fights, they burn through spell slots very slowly. In this play testing the conjurer never used more then 7 spell slots, and only took one short rest in the massive dungeon. -Enhanced summons needs to be reworked. Having max health on all summons is simply far too strong. The conjurer had at any given time almost 250 hp in front of him in the form of an ogre zombie and warhorse (find steed) As well as whatever else he summoned. Recommended change would be you roll hit dice with advantage. -Casting mod should be charisma. It makes more sense thematically, and having an int casting mod is very powerful. There are few classes who use an int mod, and that makes a better party dynamic as that means that their are only a few high int chars. Since so many skill checks are based off int, int casting modifiers should be used sparingly. -Somehow reduce number of spell slots, as said they burn through them so slowly, and can do almost whatever they want. It is very easy to cheese many enemies with conjure spells, and as such, them being able to constantly keep their summons up make them very scary. Recommended course of action, make some of their class features use up spell slots (continued in next point.) -Needs a resource. Many of their features are just slightly too powerful as a passive. A class resource would help with this. --Ayan forever DM (talk) 06:44, 23 June 2019 (MDT)

Summary of play testing[edit]

One on one, one shot. With a lvl 12 conjurer and 1 rare 2 uncommon 3 common and a few extra common and uncommon magic items from buying them. Almost went through entire large difficult dungeon without any damage. Only got hit by a direct attack once, and only got hit by a single aoe. Consistently killed mini bosses and the boss with little effort, only faltering slightly on the boss, but still being able to recover and kill him in about 2-3 rounds. Minibosses included, a stone golem, a cr 12 huge crocodile, a cr 10 wight lord that had very powerful attacks had almost 200 hp and decent armor. and an upgraded Mummy lord, that admittedly rolled poorly on hit dice. In the grand sceme of things he needed one short rest for 10 deadly encounters + traps and took about 30 damage. --Ayan forever DM (talk) 06:44, 23 June 2019 (MDT)

Thank you again for the playtesting, I'll get to work on the changes and should be finished by the end of next week with those, the changes after what you were saying that I'll be considering is to possibly allow them to have to burn a spell slot to do the minor summoning, removal of the arcane recovery, rewording of the origin feature and such. It's interesting to know that they lasted for the majority of the fights too, so thank you again Joter (talk) 15:17, 23 June 2019 (GMT)

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