Talk:Swordmaster (3.5e Class)
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Saves and Balance
I haven't given the class a balance look or anything, but I notice two things that jump out at me. The first is your saves, they appear to be wonky. Saving throws come in good flavor (ends at 12) or bad flavor (ends at 6) and shouldn't stray from that. Perhaps you wanted to implement something like the Swashbuckler's Grace ability, which (sorta) gives a "medium" save?
The second is the attack bonus to your sword. This is fine, but mind, especially on a full BAB class, that Power Attack means that +6 to attack goes RIGHT to +12 or more damage. I'd be really careful with that. Anyway it usually caps out at +5 for powers like that. -- Eiji 01:34, 6 September 2008 (MDT)
Power - 0/5 I give this class a 0 out of 5 because 2 high saves, high base attack, most levels get 2 or 3 new powers, or improvements on older ones. Also, your improved critical stacks with other improved critical, nothing else in 3.5 does this, very non-standard. Finally, no class, what ever it does should have the capability to attack 14 times. The Invisible Afterimage as close to a zero as "i win, you lose" as i have seen. PS:most fighters do not get 4 skills. --Ganre 16:45, 11 September 2008 (MDT)
- This rating has been removed since the class has been drastically changed since it was given. --Green Dragon 04:16, 3 March 2009 (MST)
Wording - 2/5 I give this class a 2 out of 5 because There are many grammer and spelling mistakes. Also, i am not sure, but it reads as if this all stacks with everything else, clarify the abilities better. Finally, the wording on the abilities is totally non-standard, try to use the same verbiage as the other classes and prestige classes --Ganre 16:45, 11 September 2008 (MDT)
- This rating has been removed since the class has been drastically changed since it was given. --Green Dragon 04:16, 3 March 2009 (MST)
Flavor - 3/5 I give this class a 3 out of 5 because it's a good idea, and you added a few notables, but you need to choose between a fighter or an expert/rogue class. --Ganre 16:45, 11 September 2008 (MDT)
- Rating nullified given changes to the class since it was made. -- Jota 11:23, 26 June 2009 (MDT)
Well, let's see. d8 HD, limited proficiencies, light armor...Okay, yeah, I'd say that's worth 2 good saves and a bump in skill points. I believe that Fighters Can Get Nice Things, so I'll read the abilities with interest when I have the time to look closely at them. -- Genowhirl 19:42, 18 November 2008 (MST)
I'm getting flashbacks of Rurouni Kenshin here...anyway. A lot of the abilities need to be written to be clearer. Increasing your criticals is fine by me, but the multipliers don't increase by half-increments. Replace the first one with, like, +3 on attack rolls to confirm criticals, and then at each Critical ability beyond that, increase the multiplier by one. Heck, even expand the threat range by 1 every now and then. And I really am fine with a critical-focused class--it's as valid a concept as any other. That being said, afterimage(it's one word, by the way), is very clunkily written, and both it and the critical ability need to be broken up on the abilities list, because those two blocks of text are hard to read. I'd also make the Afterimages a swift-action movement over a short (but increasing) distance, after which you can attack and get your relevant bonuses. I like the idea--it's a good attempt at giving a fighter something nice! --Genowhirl 09:14, 19 November 2008 (MST)
What happend to after image thats what I loved most about this class (sory about not loged in cant seem to get it to work from my ipod)
Power - 2/5 I give this class a 2 out of 5 because there are certain skills that are overpowered, such as the swordmaster's critical and swordmaster's combat. --22.214.171.124 14:22, 6 June 2009 (MDT)
Wording - 4/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 because the abilities are well-worded, just some are overpowered. --126.96.36.199 14:22, 6 June 2009 (MDT)
Power - <<<15>>>/5 I give this class a <<<15>>> out of 5 because <<<Fast strike combined with an extremely high dex makes it so your first strike auto hit, as I've expirenced. Just nerf fast strike and all will be well>>> --188.8.131.52 08:13, 1 July 2009 (MDT)
I noticed a lot of minor spelling errors that I could easily fix. May I? -- Mythos 13:55, 1 July 2009 (MDT)
- If you see "Constructive edits welcome", you don't even need to bother asking about spelling, grammar, or wiki-formatting. --Aarnott 14:07, 1 July 2009 (MDT)
Improving the Swordmaster...
Hello everyone, how are we all doing? Anyways, allow me to introduce myself: Im Dante, the guy who originally added the flavor text to the Class. Anyways, after watching and hoping who ever first started the class would continue to improve it, I've not seen that...So, I am going to try my hand at improving it and tweaking it.
My reasons for doing this is that I'm starting to playtest the class in a D&D game in the next couple of weeks and I want to see this class finished when it comes to the table. I at least want it to look like an official class, despite potential setbacks it might have.
Here is how I view the class: As a nod to the Fire Emblem Myrmadins/Swordmasters, quick killers with high evasion rates, speed, and absolutely lethal criticals. As such, I want to focus on those aspects of the class, as I feel they capture the spirit of the Fire Emblem Swordmaster the most.
So, since I'm going to dedicate a lot of time and energy into tweaking this class, any suggestions? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Dantes Sin of Greed (talk • contribs) . Please sign your posts!
- Few suggestions;
- 1. You already get full BAB; Sword Prowess is kinda redundant and boring. Just +1 to attack doesn't really say, "This is what makes this class cool and awesome"
- 2. This is coupled with an extra feat at first level, which kinda takes over the Fighter's role as the primary dip-to-get-a-feat-and-maintain-full-BAB class. I'd push the bonus feat up a few levels.
- 3. One-handed prowess--same problem as no. 1, just getting a boost to attacks/damage is kinda boring.
- 4. Spending a week of training for Swordmastery seems to be a bit too long--perhaps an hour, similar to the Warblade's "Weapon Aptitude" ability? Alternatively, might be easier just to give them Exotic Weapon Proficiency with any sword, and let them switch between swords (in a similar way to the Weapon Aptitude ability).
- Don't really have time to read "Swordmaster's After Image", but will hopefully do that soon.
- As far as this class goes, it's kind of... vanilla. Get a bunch of almost arbitrary bonuses to wielding a sword, and... that's about it. It lends itself to charging with Shock Trooper and then just making full attacks with Combat Brute, not much else. I'd personally go for a Swordsage if I were making a quick fighter--perhaps you can use that class as a source of inspiration? --Ghostwheel 23:18, 30 July 2009 (MDT)
Just to fill it out (the rating):
Wording - 3/5 I give this class a 3 out of 5 because it has its fair share of errors. The first sentence is missing a subject. The Abilities section of Making a Swordmaster is very ogreish. Starting gold doesn't actual give a dice value (not necessarily wording, but since I don't plan on rating the whole thing); swordmaster is capitalized in the middle of sentences where it shouldn't be, there are some spelling mistakes (dammage), continuity errors (afterimage/after image, flatfooted/flat-footed), as well as other just poor English errors (quite a bit of punctuation, but other nonsensical ones too, like "one-handed weapons swords"). -- Jota 00:01, 31 July 2009 (MDT)
Flavor - 3.5/5 I give this class a 3.5 out of 5 because there has been a clear effort to make a niche for this class using the flavor aspects of the preload, but not all of those are filled out as of now. Furthermore, at the end of the day, it's another mobile sword-type, of which 3.5e has seen countless variations. While this one isn't bad per se, I don't really think it offers a viable or desirable option opposite something like a swordsage, so I can't give it more than a 3.5. -- Jota 00:01, 31 July 2009 (MDT)
Power - 4/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 because The critical hit range is amazing. If you play as a dexterity fighter, you can do some damn good damage and take little to no damage in return. Wear chain mail which would allow for +4 AC from armor and +4 from 18 dexterity. Not bad at all. To improve this character... change the one handed sword feat to swords in general. Such as if the sowrdsmaster wanted to either dual wield or wield a greatsword. I did. --184.108.40.206 19:02, 26 November 2009 (MST)
Wording - 3/5 I give this class a 3 out of 5 because wording was ehh. it could be rewitten to add more of a mystical and new english ring to it instead of the contemporary style of writing that is used today. --220.127.116.11 19:02, 26 November 2009 (MST)
Formatting - 3/5 I give this class a 3 out of 5 because more details are needed. you should look at the 3.5e players guide for a fighter and thief and pretty much fill out the form the way that the handbook is. If this class were a little more elaborated on, it could be a very very good addition to the actual players handbook. at least as a prestige class. Bravo. --18.104.22.168 19:02, 26 November 2009 (MST)
Flavor - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because When i think of a swordsmaster... i think of Ogre battle. This guy is very close to that. A fast fighter who wears no armor and is damn good with his blade. I gave mine monkey grip and used a Lgreatsword. I fel sorta like i was playing Ike from fire emblem or Cloud from FF7. The badass who is damn good and very effing fast with a GIGANTIC sword. Flavor... this class has it. --22.214.171.124 19:02, 26 November 2009 (MST)
Power - 2/5 I give this class a 2 out of 5 because it tosses together all of a fighter's benefits and some of the rogue's with custom abilities such as free increases to STR, DEX, CON, and AC. Ignores the 3.5 design principle limiting stacking of critical range making it easy to get critical hits all the time for boatloads of extra damage. --126.96.36.199 19:42, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
- Normally, I'd pass this over. I mean, this class just isn't that great. I'm half tempted to make a spearfighter or axesmasher just so the universe can be balanced from swords. But Ignores the 3.5 design principle limiting stacking of critical range making it easy to get critical hits all the time for boatloads of extra damage. warrants a response. Andy Collins decided to make critical multipliers and the like not stack because he didn't like the flavor of crit-focused characters. That's not a design principle, that's a whim. --Genowhirl 17:06, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
Wording - 1/5 I give this class a 1 out of 5 because a lot of the wording is very unclear. For example, they are proficient with all swords, yet at 5th level they have a class feature to gain proficiency with specific words. --188.8.131.52 19:42, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
Formatting - 3/5 I give this class a 3 out of 5 because it's pretty good, but a bit confusing. Table also mentions it gains "Better Combat" at 10th level, but the feature isn't mentioned anywhere else. --184.108.40.206 19:42, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
Flavor - 1/5 I give this class a 1 out of 5 because there isn't really any flavor besides "it's a fighter that only uses swords and gets extra bonuses". The class features don't really seem to tie in or make sense. --220.127.116.11 19:42, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
Perhaps, instead of getting 16 feats total (1 every other level + the normal feats) like a fighter, the class instead gets no bonus feats. It would just get feats every other level, meaning 10 feats total. More than the 6 for other classes, but less than fighters who have none of the special abilities of this class.
Power - 4/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 because <<<insert why you gave the rating and how to improve it>>> --Unknown
Wording - 4/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 because <<<insert why you gave the rating and how to improve it>>> --Unknown
Formatting - 4/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 because <<<insert why you gave the rating and how to improve it>>> --Unknown
Flavor - 3.75/5 I give this class a 3.75 out of 5 because <<<insert why you gave the rating and how to improve it>>> --Unknown
Balance - 2/5 I give this class a 2 out of 5 because it is still almost comparable to a Fighter/Swashbuckler Gestalt, and a class at level 2 should not give a potential +10 to Armor Class on top of a +5 --Unknown
Wording - 4/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 because I thought it was easy to understand --Unknown
Formatting - 4/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 because --Unknown
Flavor - 4/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 because the concept is a favorite of mine. --Unknown
Recommended Swordmaster Feats by Sen
This is just my narrowed-down list for a Swordmaster I am currently building, posted for others' reference. Other feats were considered, but did not stand up-to-par.
Source Feat Name Prerequisites (As I see them, see the books for specifics)
SRD Dodge SRD Mobility Dodge SRD Spring Attack Mobility, BAB +4 SRD Combat expertise Int 13 SRD Improved Disarm Combat Expertise SRD Whirlwind Attack Spring Attack, Combat Expertise
SRD Combat Reflexes - CAd Expert Tactician Dex 13, Combat Reflexes, BAB +2 PHBII Robilar's Gambit Combat Reflexes, BAB +12 PHBII Defensive Sweep BAB +15
CS Advantageous Avoidance Character level 3rd, any luck feat. CS Better Lucky than Good Character level 6th, any two luck feats. CS Unbelievable Luck Any luck feat CS Victor's Luck - CS Fortuitous Strike Character level 6th, any luck feat. CS Lucky Start -
CC Travel Devotion - CC Death Devotion - CC Fire Devotion - CC Luck Devotion -
SRD Power Attack SRD Cleave SRD Great Cleave
SRD Weapon Focus BAB +1 SRD Weapon Specialization BAB +4, Weapon Focus SRD Greater WF SRD Greater WS PHBII Melee Weapon Mastery PHBII Weapon Supremacy PHBII Slashing Flurry
SRD Improved Critical BAB +8
SRD: d20srd.org, also found in the Player's handbook PHBII: Player's Handbook II CAr: Complete Arcane CC: Complete Champion CS: Complete Scoundrel CAd: Complete Adventurer
Balance - 2/5 I give this class a X out of 5 because --Unknown
Wording - 4/5 I give this class a X out of 5 because --Unknown
Balance - 1.5/5 I give this class a 1.5 out of 5 because it gives fighter bonus feats, then gives a ton more abilities on top. It's strictly superior to the bonus feat rogue in every way but skills in terms of raw stats, and it even piles on more abilities after, many of which grant double-dipping (Default Dex-to-AC and another dex-to-AC ability, and double int to damage) in an already-SAD class. It grants full attack bonus and a +2 attack bonus on top that progresses far too fast and in gaps(Not even a steady +1 progression). It needs to not double-dip, and to find a good niche to carve out for itself instead of throwing on dex, excessive crit bonuses, bonus damage, and very straightforward numbers on top. Most of the balanced abilities are the one that were already in base classes to begin with. Iaido might be overpowered, and randomly gives extra critical for some inexplicable reason (when precision-based damage shouldn't be multiplied to begin with). --Ruduen (talk) 18:28, 11 January 2014 (MST)
Wording - 2.5/5 I give this class a 3 out of 5 because I get the gist of what most things are trying to do, but there are several points of confusion. It essentially gives a free weapon finesse feat, but states it in a way to not ever explicitly state it. It talks about a "sword" descriptor without there being anything in the system to support it, then talks about a "current swordmastery weapon" without previously stating what that means. Iaido needs clarification on if it applies in place of any attack, or needs to be done as a standard action attack. --Ruduen (talk) 18:28, 11 January 2014 (MST)
Formatting - 3.5/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 because it could use links to when it refers to feats, pre-existing abilities, and so on. It should also add +'s to all BABs in iterative BAB listings. It often feats granted through the class "abilities", and confuses the two. --Ruduen (talk) 18:28, 11 January 2014 (MST)
Flavor - 2/5 I give this class a 2 out of 5 because this class is conflicted in several ways. At first glance, it tries to be a 'skirmisher' class, with a focus on light armor, weapon finesse, and dexterity to do damage with. However, it tries to define these to 'swords', even though swords can often go against that with their size and weight (and it tries to grant weapon finesse to these heavier swords as well). It grants an ability that only works with one weapon in hand, then gives an ability that explicitly works with two hands (Deflect Arrows) even though it should only work with one. It tries to be dex-based, then grants double-dipping int-based abilities halfway through, and then it goes and offers an option to boost strength/constitution for some reason, then grants a near-capstone stealth maneuver far later than it should be to be relevant. The fluff is in development, but the crunch doesn't match up that well. --Ruduen (talk) 18:28, 11 January 2014 (MST)