Talk:Saiyans (3.5e Race)
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I take it this some kind of conversion from DragonballZ or somesuch, so I will preface by saying I'm unfamilier with the mythos therefore my comments have no basis on the show: "+2 Strength, +2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution, −2 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom", this is of course unbalanced for every plus you give for stats you need to balance it with an equal minus. You are giving them 8 additional stat points but only giving a 2 point penalty. This needs to be really reworked, either by lowering the bonues and boosting the penalty or completly changing it to something more balanced. "Saiyans have an innate, were-ape like transformation which is triggers by the presence of a full moon. The saiyan goes into a rage, increasing in size by two steps, becomes covered in hair, and takes the form of an ape. He gains +4 Str, -4 Dex, +4 Con a -2 size penalty on attack rolls, and a -2 size penalty to Armor Class due to your increased size. He gains two primary slam attacks dealing 1d8 + Str damage, and a secondary bite attack for 1d8 + 1/2 Str. This form lasts for 3 + their newly improved Constitution modifier rounds, and during this frenzy they are unable to tell friend from foe, or perform any tasks requiring thinking, similar to a barbarian's rage.", here we see why 3.x died. In order to create the effect your looking for you had to create almost an entire separate character based on the original one made by the Player. This power needs to get streamlined, I would drop all stat adjustments and go with +2 Melee Damage, -2 to AC (plus loss of armor if it is non-magical, due to size change), keep the Slam attack but lose the Bite. The duration works well, but you may want to make it 1/day as opposed to "when there is a full moon" (less bookkeeping). These are just some thoughts, I know it can be hard to convert TV or Movie characters into D&D stats (they just wern't made for each other) and sadly you often have to make consessions so they fit into the game without being unbalancing. They won't come out exactly like the character from said show or movie but you can gain a similar feel and still be very balanced. Hope that helps. -- Sepsis 10:13, 18 September 2008 (MDT)
- To the first part, yes, the stats are unbalanced, and it would be impossible to give a saiyan anything but inbalanced scores. I made it knowing there was already going to be an LA adjustment, simply "how much". I figured keeping the increases to +2/-2s instead of +4, +6, or +8 they might very well possess (plus going strickly by Z is a bad idea since that is all epic-time, I figured young Goku was "stronger/toughter/etc than normal" for someone his age and size, but not unbeatably so, so +2 was appropriate) Some I spoke to felt it was worth LA 1 so I put it there. Anyway...
- "...we see why 3.X died?" Wait game are you playing, 3.Xe is alive and well in homebrew. Or do you mean it "died" as in is discontinued officially. I think that's more to the point of "WotC wants more money" than "Eiji made a homebrew".
- In any case, Oozaru form is actually pretty comparable to barbarian rage. You get the same effect by a barbardian/Psychic Warrior... manifest expansion, then rage. And no second character sheet needed, I'm sure people can handle the ability score changes. You get extra weapons, easy as pie, and... well, that's it really. The full moon bit is both canon, and a nerf to its power... while this is a bit more useful than a barbarian's rage, it really takes control out of the player's hands and makes it a quasi-negative. Now, of course in the series certain saiyans learned to make artificial moonlight to provoke the transformation, but beyond that, Oozaru remains DM fiat granted "power" and is fluff otherwise.
- Thanks for the comments, but I actually feel quite content with its current incarnation. -- Eiji 10:53, 18 September 2008 (MDT)
LA and Power
Though not expressibly stated, please use the talk page before making mechanical changes. In any case, I won't change the last edit by an IP, but I will ask for justification. I was actually content with it being LA 1 with the stats it had, and would like to keep it LA 1 if possible. What would you say that is overpowering for LA 1 that would cost it another -2 Int and another lost level?
Discuss. -- Eiji 21:05, 24 October 2008 (MDT)
- Since we reviewed this race greatly in the The Tavern one day, I gotta say I think we came up with a fine example of a LA +1 race. The ol' Soldarin's ECL Calculator (which I don't trust 100%, but its still a handy tool) also backs up our suspicions in the matter, but heck, I'm curious as to why it seems like someone would think it was LA +2. Its only got Overall +4 Ability Scores (with only +2s), and a basic Rage-like ability and a few minor skill boosts likely not to mean much after a few levels. LA +1 is fine...so, now for the defense's argument in the matter. --Ganteka 21:30, 24 October 2008 (MDT)
- Obviously people need to realize that Saiyans aren't stupid. A -2 is justified, but -4 is not, obviously. The race works fine at LA +1, all bonuses except for Racial Stats and Power/Ki points can be lost easily from removing the tail and Oozaru Form is pretty much limited so much it's not at all viable in a combat situation anyway. --TK-Squared 23:57, 24 October 2008 (MDT)
- Been long enough, no word, so, changing it back. -- Eiji 00:49, 31 October 2008 (MDT)
Saiyans should have a negative on int. It would remain unchanged. Average int and every thing else is boosted. Maybe not Charisma. --—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Zetsumeimaru (talk • contribs) 16:29, April 10, 2009. Please sign your posts!
- Actually, Saiyans aren't all that intelligent. They are a race of thugs. Int should be negative; they're a warring race, not a technologically advanced one (they got most of their technology from Friza). On the subject of Charisma; Saiyans are extremely charismatic, in the sense they have a very high profile of themselves (exceptions do, of course, exist), but ultimately; Vegeta, Nappa and Raditz were all very arrogant about their own abilities. --TK-Squared 10:50, 10 April 2009 (MDT)
Watch the show.
Really? I mean, REALLY?
How dumb can you be?
Saiyans aren't dumb like an orc, as you seem to be. There should be no plus or minus to int or wis. Dumb orc. -- —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Zetsumeimaru (talk • contribs) 17:09, June 8, 2009. Please sign your posts!
- Buh? Well, personal attack aside, the +2 Wis is appropriate as they seem aware of their surroundings, sensitive to ki energies, and magically/psionically adapt. However, I have never seen any saiyan scientists, and indeed some vague memory in my past recalls that the saiyan technologies were all borrowed from Frieza's people, or someone else. In any case, a -2 Int would certainly show their lack of scientific prowress beyond the development of superpowers for beating people up. -- Eiji 19:14, 8 June 2009 (MDT)
- Not quite true, the original canon had them build a rocket before they met Frieza, but that was about it. From then on, no saiyan ever really worked too much on their intelligence beyond what was necessary.
While I do appreciate the lengths the user has gone to make a super saiyan mode, I'm not entirely sure it's appropriate to have it as a portion of the race's base traits (I was thinking more PrC or paragon class). More to the point, SSj, by its nature is rather strong and I am aiming to keep the LA down to a playable LA 1 if at all possible. If you could discuss these changes here before making them that would be appreciated.
On that note, input if I should keep these changes is welcome. And go. -- Eiji 21:06, 4 July 2009 (MDT)
- I'd say spin it off and link to it if you really want to (or the new page can link back here if you'd rather not be associated with it, something that might be understandable given the game-breaking potential). -- Jota 21:13, 4 July 2009 (MDT)
Personally i think this works better as a half saiyan and think a more powerful saiyan race be introduced --Name Violation 00:15, 26 September 2009 (MDT)
- Actually, according to canon, half saiyans were more powerful
so lets say for some reason you make a saiyan a wiz/sorc and roll bad hp. your tail can have more hp than you, which doesn't make sense. maybe 2hp per hd?
- but having the tail have more hp than you would be insanely funny
1. Yes Saiyans are not all that smart but there were doctors and using the argument they have doctors so that makes the whole damn race smart is wrong as it is like saying "oh look and orc wizard that makes orcs smart" Also Saiyans were a barbaric race.
2. although this correction has not much to do with the race i feel t could be needed. Saiyans got their technology from a race that they cooperated with and conquered planets in exchange for technology this could help with the relations sections.
3. if you want more information go to dragonball wiki it has informaton on the saiyans there.
4. this is a suggestion. All Saiyans can shoot an Kamehameha/Galick Gun/Masenko when they have a high enough power level so maybe at like 5th level give them the ability to fire a line attack dealing 1/2 levels d8 in damage dealing damage of no specific type.
5. this correctin is for everyone if you are not happy with Eiji's work then MAKE YOUR OWN DAMN SAIYAN CLASS okay.
6. Keep up the good work Eijji this is an order.--Stryker-Fyre 12:07, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
I may not be logged in or even apart of this wiki community, but I was wondering about LSSJ(Legendary Super Saiyan). This is the super saiyan that Broly turns into in the 8th movie. This form is by all means broken as a regular SSJ losses power as he fights, while a LSSJ actually has an inverse of this and GAINS power per round in battle. however, this form main draw back is a reduction in speed and int (although not as much as one may think) and a 50%-85% chance to loose one's self in absolute uncontrollable rage, where everything is a target. Also, another reason I am thinking you didnt mention it is that it only happens in a rare few saiyans with the correct blood type.
PS: This form, even under control, may result in a LG(lawful good) character to fall to CN(chaotic neutral) or even NE(neutral evil). I mean, if you would watch the movie this would make a HUGE amount of since.
Near death power increase
--Ethosssss 21:43, 10 September 2011 (MDT) I dnt see anything to show how Saiyans increase in power when they almost die. I think it should be something where if they get down to 1% of their total health and survive, they should get a bonus 10% of max hp, a +2 to all physical stats. Also if they get to 0 or below and survive these bonuses should be doubled
There is no way with the advanced powers that this thing is LA +2 seeing hows the "super saiyan" abilities are accessed at will. Hell look at the were creature templates (which don't get anything near these bonuses) and the lowest one is at least +3. The level adjustment on this needs to be corrected. Tivanir 14:06, 6 April 2012 (MDT)
- This is an example of what I am talking about
Base Movement Speed: x2 Damage Reduction: The Saiyan gains Damage Reduction against all attacks (Stackable with any other Damage Reduction Bonuses) equal to their Effective Character Level. Spell Resistance: The Saiyan gains Spell Resistance (stackable with any other Spell Resistance bonuses) equal to their Effective Character Level. Attribute Bonuses:
Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution each increase by an amount equal to the Class Level (For a max of +20 at Level 20). Wisdom, Intelligence, and Charisma each increase by an amount equal to 1 point every 2 Class Levels (for a max of +10 at Level 20). The Saiyan gains Max Hit Dice for their class. Damage Bonuses
Unarmed Physical damage increases by 1 die level. Armed damage increases according to the new Temp. STR Mod. Energy/Spell/Psionic Damage increases by an additional +1 per die every 4 Class Levels (For a max of +5 at level 20). Saving throws against the Saiyan's attacks of this nature increase accordingly with the attribute increases. Activating Super Saiyan Stage 1
In order to achieve Super Saiyan for the first time, a great injustice must be done (Such as Goku seeing his best friend Krillin being killed by the tyrant Frieza on the Planet Namek). Or, they must have witnessed another Saiyan transform into a Super Saiyan. The Saiyan must be at least 4th level. Activating Super Saiyan for the first time takes 3 full rounds to achieve. Damage received by attacks of opportunity or otherwise do not break the Sayian from gathering his energy to transform. Each subsequent activation of Super Saiyan requires 1 full round. Attacks against the transforming Saiyan do not break their concentration on gathering their energy unless the attack drops their HP to 0 or less. While powering up to Super Saiyan, anyone in adjacent spaces are knocked back 5 feet and take 2 points of subdual energy damage (Spell Resistance applies) due to the amount of energy being released by the Saiyan. Players or NPC's that are 15 feet away take 1 point of subdual energy damage (Spell resistance applies) per round, and that damage increases by 1 point for every 5 feet closer they are to the transforming Saiyan. Super Saiyan Stage 1 lasts for the amount of minutes equal to the Effective Character Level. When the time ends, the Saiyan takes 5 points of subdual damage and takes a -2 penalty to all Attributes, AC, and Attack Rolls, Damage rolls, and 1/2 Base Movement Speed for 1d4 rounds due to fatigue and sudden energy loss. To feel these effects by 1/2, a fortitude save of DC 14+ECL is required. A fortitude Save of DC17+ECL is required to have no negative effects whatsoever. To transform back to normal early, a concentration check of DC 17+ is required, followed by the saves mentioned beforehand from it deactivating normally. Subdual damage that the Saiyan receives during this transformation back to normal goes away at the rate of 1 point per hour, or fully disappears after an amount of restful sleep. Anyone who sees the transformation has to make a fear save of 10+ Characters Fort. DESCRIPTION-when in super saiyan(ssj): hair turns golden, and spikes up, muscles seem to increase along with power and saiyans gain a yellowish Auora
So just for being this class and reaching 20th level and seeing someone in the party die you get +20 to strength (that is +10 to hit and damage) dexterity (+10 to AC) constitution (+10 hp per level so 200 hp) and let's suppose they are a monk. They also have +10 to wis (+5 additional ac) int (skill boosts) and cha (skill boosts). Then lets increase his attack damage by a die (2d8 becomes 3d8 then add 15 for damage then add the normal modifiers) and to his it is base numbers +15. This is the first one you can get, it is really easy to get, and it scales with no drawbacks except you are stunned afterwards (and not much worse than a normal barbarian, and you can hold it for minutes. In addition to this you don't have a limit to activations per day. In short you become a mega tank and damage dealer and there is no way in hell you won't kill your opponents before this lapses, you can lapse it immediately after, recover then do it again. The later levels are even worse as level 3 your bonuses are so obscene that you will most likely be one shotting every encounter in the game. A 2 level adjustment shouldn't better than double your chances to solo a freaking dragon. Tivanir 14:32, 6 April 2012 (MDT)
- As a further note for this race: at class level 18 (adjusted 20) will give you access to saiyan 3 and lets go with monk (sticking with the first example) which gives you: 54 str (+27 to hit and damage), 54 dex (+27 ac), 54 con (+27 hp per level aka 486 extra hp) and another 13 AC from wis. This is before any magical items and doesn't include the DR 54/-, SR 27, and doing 5d8 hand to hand now. You could quite literally with flurry of blows take out an ECL 30 Elder Titan due to his massive reduction to damage, SR high saves (18 monk is base of 11 and the lowest score is an additional +13 in this case so base save of 24 plus any magic or base stats.) And this is solo with no help from anyone else, being able to kill something that is suppose to keep a party of 4 busy for a few rounds and be a substantial problem being unable to hurt them. Tivanir 14:51, 6 April 2012 (MDT)
- And another set of numbers for an example the saiyan level 4 if you get it once you hit class level 20 (total level 22) you can SAFELY kill the highest CR creature solo in a matter of rounds that being the Hecatoncheires simply from the massive adjustments. I don't care what the show says you should not have an effect +41 to character level for a +2 level adjustment. Tivanir 15:01, 6 April 2012 (MDT)