Talk:Red Mage (3.5e Class)

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Balance template[edit]

I was wondering why the balance template was removed from the article? --Xenophon 16:38, 9 December 2006 (MST)

I have no idea, however I just added it back. Cyberwolf247, could you please explain why you did this? --Green Dragon 18:06, 9 December 2006 (MST)

The Change[edit]

This class was greatly changed, and I think it would be good if Cyberwolf247, the editor under the IP of 64.219.24.244, could explain why he changed it below. Also, it would be good if Pirate-Sorcerer, the author of this class, could say he allows the changes. If neither party responds, this page will be rolled back. Cyberwolf247 has already said "Redid redmage to be more realistic, based on similarities to duskblade. Iwas IP 64.219.24.244" --Green Dragon 18:12, 9 December 2006 (MST)

Changes to my Class... I do not approve of the changes made to my class. I do like the addition of background infromation to the red mage (although I was going for more of a Final Fantasy style red mage rather than an 8-bit Theater style red mage), though I do not approve of the changes made to the game rule information. I do not mind grammar changes made to my articles, or do I mind if balance issues are pointed out with my classes. However, I do mind if someone changed my classes without my permission. Cyberwolf247, if you have some suggestions to make, such as new abilities to add, some abilities to drop, some balance issues, then go over them with me, and I will consider them. If you want to make a varient of a class I have made, then start a new article on D&D Wiki. Do not, however, change any my classes without my permission. Edit: I have now changed the red mage back to the way I wanted it. --Pirate-Sorcerer
This is what I thought you would say, I was just not sure if you wanted the edits rolled back or not. Anyway, their is no need now because you already changed it back to your version. Finally, as Pirate-Sorcerer said so well If you want to make a varient of a class I have made, then start a new article on D&D Wiki. I hope you understand why your edits were not kept Cyberwolf247. --Green Dragon 18:17, 10 December 2006 (MST)
Sorry about that I was not sure where to post suggestions, I know there are two variants of the red mage class on the net, just wanted to show some of the alternatives. Didn't mean to step on any toes. Cyberwolf 19:06, 10 December 2006 (MST)
If you want to add your version go ahead and do it... Just go to DnD Classes and you can add it easily. --Green Dragon 19:44, 10 December 2006 (MST)

Rating - 9/10[edit]

I give this Prestige Class a 9/10 because it gives a very detailed description on what a Red Mage is and how you play as one. It gives very detailed lists of what a Red Mage can do in terms of spells, feats, bonuses, ect. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.35.28.4 (talkcontribs) 20:37, 21 December 2006 (MST). Please sign your posts!

Thanks for your rating, it is good to know that my class is balanced, but the red mage is a base class, not a prestige class. Could you please review & rate my other classes, which are the mystic warrior & the pirate. --Pirate-Sorcerer

A bit overpowered...[edit]

The red mage is a very interesting class, however, I couldn't help but thinking that she is a bit overpowered. I mean, she has 6 skill points per level, can cast spells in light armour with no chances of failure, has an extremelly versatile spell selection and can increase her hit die to something beyond your average rogue. I do know that it's a class supposed to be good at everything and excellent at nothing, it's just that the red mage is really strong at the beggining of the game. I guess you could make her Armored mage [Light] a class ability to be acquired at level 5. Then she would still be able to get Armored mage [Medium] at level 6 but would have to chose between that and the improved hit die.

I guess that by doing that the class would be somewhat weakned in the beginning, while not losing power by the end of the game. It's just that I once let 2 players create characters using special +4 races while all others created normal characters. Quickly enough the other players got pretty annoyed cause they did nothing, even knowing that quickly enough they would be as powerful as the ones that got +4 races, which did happen after 5 or 6 adventures. I guess that would happen with this character, since at the start of the game, it can excel as a rogue, a diplomat, a healer and be a moderate mage and warrior, making some of the other players feel as redundant. I mean, this class is a better fighter than a bard, a better rogue than a bard and a better caster than a bard.

Maybe we could reduce its hit die to d4 and give a +2 con bonus at level 8 or so. I believe that it should help.

So, my two sugestions in short: start with d4 and get a +2 con bonus at level 8 or so and getting Armored mage [Light] as class ability at level 5. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 201.52.48.146 (talkcontribs) 08:42, 23 December 2006 (MST). Please sign your posts!

I MoI'ed the author, Pirate-Sorcerer, he should respond soon. --Green Dragon 17:45, 23 December 2006 (MST)
Thank you for pointing out balance issues that you see in my class, and for your attempts to fix them. But however, I am hesitant to reduce the red mage's hit dice or have her wait until a later level for her to be able to cast spells without failure in light armor. Will reducing the red mage's skill points per level or reducing her spell per day & spell known progression to that of a bard balance it out?
Now I can see how the red mage would be a better spellcaster than a bard, but could you please elaborate on how the red mage makes a better fighter or a better rogue than a bard. --Pirate-Sorcerer
I think I can. You've given this class much more versatility in selecting weapons, as well as the chance to use ALL martial weapons anytime he or she chooses to with the special feature. It also encourages the use of medium armours, since there's a way to nullify the spell failure there (as well as the one for shields, mitigating another drawback for bards). Thus, it's possible for a Red Mage, as done here, to choose one of the martial weapons to be proficient with as 'Greataxe', which does sort of change the theme of the character--Bards have martial weapons, but generally more finesse ones like the rapier. And add to that the option of resorting to a timely lightning bolt ... Qaianna 01:11, 4 January 2007 (MST)
Again, I MoI'ed the author, Pirate-Sorcerer, he should respond soon. --Green Dragon 15:45, 4 January 2007 (MST)
Okay, now I can see how the red mage can make a better fighter than a bard. Will getting rid of the martial training & armored mage special abilities, plus adding prerequesites for the rest of the special abilities help balance the red mage? Please point out more more balance issues with the red mage so I can balance it. Thank you. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Pirate-Sorcerer (talkcontribs) 23:12, 4 January 2007 (MST). Please sign your posts!

Balance - 3/10[edit]

I like the idea of this class. Unfortunately, any weakness that I can think of is absolutely mitigated by a manipulation of the class's abilities, especially the many special abilities. I know the point of the class is that it is moderately good at everything; nonetheless, it should not be capable of being better at support than the other support classes (e.g. bard). It can, in fact, be manipulated to be better at spell-casting than a dedicated spell-caster (e.g. a straight sorcerer). This makes the class inexcusably flawed. The class does not have any centrally binding concept; instead, it is a medley of special abilities that should intentionally be separated. Thus, I believe the class warrants a 3 of 10. --EldritchNumen 00:56, 24 December 2006 (MST)

Rating - 7/10[edit]

I like the idea and the progression is good, but i think they should get double cast later in the progression. i think you were good with the spell selection and the level they get them. However, one spell caught my eye, mage armor (greater). I've never seen it before, is it one of yours? ==Alabastor 07:34, 9 March 2007 (MST)

Thanks for your comments, but I am a tad reluctant to move up doublecast to a later level. Will adding a spellcraft dc in order to successfully doublecast help? Oh, and mage armor (greater) is from The Complete Arcane, page 114. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Pirate-Sorcerer (talkcontribs) 22:40, 11 March 2007 (MST). Please sign your posts!
it would help, in my opinion its a real good ability. ==Alabastor 07:29, 13 March 2007 (MDT)

Rating - 6/10[edit]

I rate this 6/10 because while it has potential it is just overpowered. Many arguments were mentioned above so I won't repeat them, but my beef is in the skills (see below).

Red Mage CCS Analysis
Basics Abilities (1st-5th) Abilities (5th-10th) Abilities (11th-20th)
d6 HD +10 Sp. Ab. (Power x2) +16 Doublecast +2 Sp. Ab. (power x3) +3
Weap Prof +16 Doublecast (x2) +8 Sp. Ab (Power) +2 Doublecast (x3) +3
Armor Prof +17 Reroll +4 Reroll +1 Arm Maneu +1
Class Skills +31 Spell cast in LA +4     Reroll +1
Skill Points +51            
Saves +12            
BAB +17            
Spells +32            
Total = 188 Total = 28 Total = 6 Total = 10
Grand Total = 232(+17) Verdict = Overpowered

Keep in mind I assuming that Doublecast doesn't count as a "powerful" ability. But even then its overpowered...If we assume that Doublecast is powerful, we get a further +13 for a total of 245.

This class makes a big mistake. You see, FF has a physical-magical duality. That is a class is either on one or the other or in the middle. D&D is not like this, its physical-magical-skills. FF RM doesn't have skills, because FF (the game) has next to no need for them. But for D&D RM, you must factor that in. If you want a physical-magical class you can't have a skill-based class as well. Seriously, you say they can do everything, but the reality is they can't. The rules force it so: a player would never put skill points in Architecture, so why have it? Why have Appraise? Religion? Sleight of Hand? Never think in terms of a character, but as a party. They have clerics and rogues. We don't need their skills on top of their abilities. The class needs holes. If this class is a fighter-mage, don't put in every skill under the sun. --Pwsnafu 21:48, 13 March 2007 (MDT)

Thanks for the criticism. I have gotten rid of several class skills the red mage has, & reduced the skill points per level down to 4. Tell me if there is anything else I can do to help balance the red mage out. Could you also review my other classes: the pirate & the mystic warrior please. Also, is there a paticular class balance system you are using, cause I could use it to see if any classes I am working on are balanced or not. --Pirate-Sorcerer
Firstly, the link to CCS is on my talkpage. More importantly I won't rate Mystical Warrior because it goes against my principles. If you create a class, you must be explicit in what you want the class to be. Currently the player is allowed to choose between Spont & Book. That is not how a class should behave. They are both arcane, so pick one and stick to it. (I'm not saying players should have no choice, rather choosing a casting method is overkill.) Thirdly, D&D Wiki may change the rating system, so I won't do anything until then. --Pwsnafu 16:22, 17 March 2007 (MDT)

Rating[edit]

Power - 0/5: I give this class a 0 out of 5 because its various special abilities, saves, spell list, and spell progression are all insanely good. It gets two good saves. It gets spontaneous spellcasting as good as a Sorcerer, only losing out on the top three spell levels. It gets BAB as good as a Cleric or Rogue. It can attempt to cast two spells in a single turn, and failure to make an easy skill check only results in the ability being used and a turn wasted, while the spells themselves can still be used again. It can reroll a d20 and take the better roll. It can learn the spells of other classes and cast them spontaneously, in light armor. It has a list of spells almost as big as the Sorcerer or Wizard, and more skill points and skills than either. This class outdoes any base class by being almost as good in the base class's skills while vastly outdoing them in all others. The quickest way I can see to salvage the class is to strip it of the last two spell levels, decrease the rate at which it gains most of its special abilities, trim its spell list down to a few essentials, make Doublecast use up the spells it casts, and limit Reroll to only once a day. It'll be a lot cleaner then, if not perfect. --Cronocke 23:41, 25 March 2008 (MDT)

Rating[edit]

Power - <<<Insert Your Rating Here>>>/5 I give this class a <<<Insert Your Rating Here>>> out of 5 because <<<insert why you gave the rating and how to improve it>>> --67.159.44.138 06:06, 10 July 2008 (MDT)

Wording - 0/5 I give this class a 0 out of 5 because of the informal tone and poor grammar. --Derp

Formatting - 0/5 I give this class a 0 out of 5 because of the persistent use of ampersands and "his/her" even though using "and" and one gender pronoun are standard form in official publications - and the page fails to even be consistent with these choices. The abilities section is there to highlight key abilities, not everything and the kitchen sink. --Derp

Flavor - 0/5 I give this class a 0 out of 5 because it is thematically bland, featuring a mass of dead levels and almost no quirks that set it apart, and the class's spell list is practically the same as the Mystic Warrior's. --Derp

Comments[edit]

It's interesting, and I had to laugh. It's a pretty good representation of the Final Fantasy Red Mage. I'd play it for the fun factor (at the very least) and I'd allow it in one of my games if the player asked nicely.

Some comments on the special abilities, though.

Bonded Weapon-- Should be better. Seriously, just taking Weapon Focus is superior to this ability, because it works in more than Light armor and still meets the prerequisites for the upgrade. Maybe it should give a better bonus (better bonus to attack/damage, works better for Arcane Channeling, scaling magical enhancement, whatever), but I'd have to think it over.

Doublecast-- is kinda clunky. Just casting two 1st-level spells increases the DC by 4, if I'm reading this correctly.

I'm saving this for future reference. I want to try it out sometime. Kudos to you! Genowhirl 11:47, 3 October 2008 (MDT)

Spell List Shenanigans[edit]

I'm noticing some spells that are listed as a lower level than they appear on the Cleric or Wizard spell lists. Polar Ray isn't that bad (it's a vastly overrated spell), but Prismatic Spray, Resurrection, and Limited Wish? The major defense I can think of is that the Red Mage gets 5th-level spells at class level 13, and acquires 6th-level spells at level 16, a full five levels after a wizard or cleric has done so. So I understand some fudging on the levels at which spells appear, to keep the Red Mage doing something at least semi-current. Plus, it's not like anyone else can learn spells from them, so, yeah. Doesn't look so bad to me.

Rating[edit]

Power - 4/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 because It seems a little overreaching -- Innate spell as early as 1st level? NO! Bad monkey! --222.3.249.11 07:13, 10 October 2008 (MDT)

Wording - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because It's very clear on what it means, the article, I mean. --222.3.249.11 07:13, 10 October 2008 (MDT)

Formatting - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because It was formatted very well --222.3.249.11 07:13, 10 October 2008 (MDT)

Flavor - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because it fits what we all know about RDMs more-or-less perfectly --222.3.249.11 07:13, 10 October 2008 (MDT)

Rating - 17/20[edit]

Unlike seems to be popular opinion, I actually think this class is a little underpowered. The first few spell levels have some pretty strong choices (color spray, alter self, mirror image, haste), but after that the spells are almost all direct heal and direct damage - some of the weakest types of spells - or illusion-based (which as levels increase work on an ever decreasing number of foes). Because this is on top of a slow spell progression, the class's overall power really weakens as it goes on.

The class is decent at combat, so I'd play to its strengths and add a few more self buffs - in FF1 everybody ended up using their red mages to cast Fast, so it's true to your source material. You'll also want to add more touch spells, since you have a Channel Spell feature that needs them to function properly.

I'd say the class's strongest point would be around level 5, where you can have Alter Self, Mirror Image, Channel Spell, and Shocking Grasp. Twice per day, you can start a combat by doublecasting the first two (changing into a troglodyte), then start using channeled shocking grasps to attack your opponents. At that level, the class is very strong. I think your goal should be to keep the class that strong or slightly weaker for the rest of its life.

Otherwise... formatting is good. The class doesn't step on any other class's toes. Your descriptions of class features are clear, but could be improved. It's solid overall, just needs more polish.

Power: 4/5 Wording: 4/5 Formatting: 5/5 Flavor: 4/5

Squash Monster 09:03, 10 October 2008 (MDT)

I agree. Considering that this class doesn't cast as well as a wizard or cleric, doesn't hit as well as a fighter, can't really join combat due to low hit die, gains spells that are below level appropriate, and never gains 9th level spells or 16 BAB, it doesn't measure up to modern gish builds. It could work for a lower-tier campaign. Miryafa 18:39, 15 September 2011 (MDT)

Final Fantasy[edit]

Is this derived from the Red Mages of the Final Fantasy series? I assumed it is, and so added the {{Copyright Disclaimer}} to the bottom of the page. If it is not so, feel free to remove the template. -Valentine the Rogue 02:10, 14 April 2009 (MDT)

Class Spells[edit]

I really like this class but my only issue is with the spells I don't know where you get some of them like Electric jolt. If you could post where you got the ones that aren't from PHB or SRD. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Drake vampiel (talkcontribs) 10:53, 25 December 2009 (MST). Please sign your posts!

I added wikify to reflect. --Green Dragon 11:11, 25 December 2009 (MST)

Input[edit]

I took your idea and started creating my own Red Mage on my computer, and I realized that if you give only up to 4th-5th level spells (gaining 2nd levels spells at about level 5 or 6), then doublecast can be at will (with no spellcraft check needed) starting level 7. At 7th level, most casting classes know 4th level spells, while you would only know 2nd level spells, so doublecasting 2 2nds would be equivalent to a 4th, and it would still use up both spell slots. Just a thought. --Rogue The Demonchild 17:18, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

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