Talk:Magical Girl (3.5e Class)

Magical Girl Class

Well... you have my apologies for the ugliness of the format. I'm not experienced at all with writing in this format, and for some reason the formula descriptions are not properly spread across new lines (the descriptions are meant to be on a new line, but they keep showing up immediately after the quote, and I have no idea why). Unfortunately, I have no idea how to do a table from scratch either, so I pasted the Animal Companion table straight from the Druid wiki page... unfortunately, it seems it's not possible to trim it down.

Anyone willing to help me with the above issues will receive much thanks.

I've done what I can to keep the class balanced, and from what playtesting I've done it looks like it is - while magical girls do recieve a number of defensive bonuses, unlike most classes that get them, they are not untyped - they don't stack with other armour, deflection, or shield bonuses, so the only way to improve AC other than improving Dex/Cha is natural armour.

Other things that may look powerful... Bullet Hell. Bullet Hell does have the potential to benefit twenty times each from a weapon enhancement bonus at level twenty, but I believe this is appropriately limited by the fact that each bullet must test itself independently against DR or elemental resistance. At the levels where it gets especially damaging, almost everything has one or the other, and it reduces the damage sharply (DR 10 or energy resistance 10 makes Bullet Hell essentially incapable of damaging an enemy at full spread). Of course, to keep that balance I had to make sure that Bullet Hell can not be modified with Elemental Focus, as most of those abilities have no appropriate resistance.

Third note, healing. You'll note that the healing formula is significantly more powerful than Lay on Hands. This is intentional. Lay on Hands can only be used once a day, and heals about as much damage as many PCs can be expected to take in a single round... if it's not a useful ability, I personally at least see no reason to grant them it at all. If there aren't at least some situations where healing is a good use of one's action in a round, then the ability is pretty much nothing more than flavour. If it still seems too powerful, feel free to suggest a powered-down version that's still actually worth spending a round on.

The class is a work in progress, and will probably remain so pretty much constantly. I want to get a number of example NPCs (to show a few things that can be done with the build), and fill in quotes for all the formulae. Additionally, if anyone has an idea for a formula, feel free to suggest it - I intend for this to be capable of statting up any magical girl you have in mind. I have a few more formulae myself that aren't quite complete. However, the core stuff is done, and has been playtested a little bit - anyone interested, please review and add suggestions. --Pale Wolf 10:59, 30 August 2009 (MDT)

Can't speak of balance or anything at the moment as I only gave it a cursory glance, but I did a little bit of formatting. If you find the first one (Divine Buster, I think) to your liking then you can copy those changes to each particular formula. Two other things: one, as a wiki, we use American English, which means flavour and armour are technically incorrect, and two, shit I forgot what two was supposed to be, but anyway, to get the spacing right you just need a few empty lines, as you should be able to see based on the changes I've made. Hope that helps. -- Jota 13:28, 30 August 2009 (MDT)

Oooooh, formatting help much appreciated. For #1, my proper spelling has been uncorrected to fit the wiki's standards. :P

... Mostly. I don't know your arcane spellings that well, so if I missed something, please point it out. --Pale Wolf 14:02, 30 August 2009 (MDT)

One combo you might want to be aware of is Enhanced Attack + Bullet Hell; at level 20, you split the primary attack into 4 (each dealing 5d6) and add 6d6 from Enhanced Attack onto that for 4x 11d6 per round at will. Not saying if it's balanced/unbalanced, just that it's a possibility you might not have thought about. Or at level 6 you're splitting them into 2 + 2 + 1 + 1 and adding 2 to each one for 14d6 total damage per round.

Also, for the AMF field, perhaps a "dampening field" of some sort that affected only spells, spell-likes, and supernaturals might be better? That way it wouldn't neuter allies who were also close by, and who rely on items (which tend to have a far lower caster level than one's HD/CL) rather than spells/powers. --Ghostwheel 22:30, 30 August 2009 (MDT)

You might also want to add extra options for things as they level up. For example, Focused shot past level 10 (or whatever's appropriate) can gain the ability to Bull Rush opponents with the MG's BAB modified by their charisma instead of Strength.

A few more ideas for options of Formulas might also include things similar to the Warlock's eldritch essences. For example, you could make your Focused Shot/Bullet Hell/other energy attack deal extra damage the round later for a sort of "acidic" feel, apply negative levels, entangle, slow, sicken, or any other of numerous effects to add more interesting abilities to it. --Ghostwheel 22:46, 30 August 2009 (MDT)

Gaaaaaah, didn't consider that potential combo. Enhanced Attack rules clarified so as not to allow it to stack (or for you to add Enhanced Attack onto four separate Magic Missiles). And, that's what it already is - it's basically a dispel effect, rather than resembling the Anti Magic Field spell, applies only to spells and spell-likes (I'm... not quite sure how to get it to apply to supernaturals too, though I should). Wording's unclear, I suppose? Trying to think of a better title, since it's specifically meant to mimic the AMF from Nanoha StrikerS...

Hm. The upgrading idea is an interesting thought, though I'm wary of bringing the power too high (trying to keep her balanced). And those are some definitely useful formula ideas, thanks. --Pale Wolf 22:29, 30 August 2009 (MDT)

Edited the AMF for clarity, revert if you don't like how I spelled it out? --Ghostwheel 23:34, 30 August 2009 (MDT)

Also, you don't really need to list all the feats; explaining that it works by bashing someone with the MG's implement should be there, but the rest are assumed by it being a weapon-like ability. Also, you mention that you can't add metamagic feats to spell-like abilities, and that might be a little redundant too. However, there's always Maximize/Quicken/Empower Spell-like Ability (CA, MM) as long as one can voluntarily lower the effective level of one's Focused Shot/Bullet Hell/etc.

Another thing you might want to clarify is when the Will save to recognize the MG activates. Is it on sight, like a Gaze effect, or when interacted with, like an illusion? --Ghostwheel 23:40, 30 August 2009 (MDT)

AMF description mostly works, though I added that it can dispel continuing effects like Fly, as well. And, I added the specific bit about metamagic feats not applying because not everyone has the appropriate book - I'd like this class to be usable by novices and not just people who've read every book in detail. Same for the list of usable feats - that's a splatbook-specific ruling, and if someone doesn't have the right book I'd still like if they could use it since it's a good ruling.

Good point about the will save - it's activated on sight (or hearing, smelling, whatever means of detection you favour). Clarified.

Also, whoever tossed in the quote thing - thanks, looks nice, adjusting the other quotes to that format. --Pale Wolf 12:05, 31 August 2009 (MDT)

On to some balance issues; first, Bind is really powerful. When you're pinned, people can coup-de-grace you. So if the MG used Bind on someone, and an ally delayed until right after them they would be able to kill the opponent. A better way might be making it scale by level, with no ill effects on a made ref save. So at first level it starts with Entangled. At level 5 it becomes Slowed. Level 10 enemies are limited to a move action, and at level 15 enemies are held as per Hold Person--or something like that.

The healing power might also be a bit much. Assuming 18 base cha, one can get one's charisma to 34 by level 20. That means that the MG can heal at will 240 HP. Not sure if this was the number you were going for, but it's something to be aware of.

Teleport is more of a long range teleport; perhaps instead, Flash Move could use Dimension Slide as a base, automatically augmented? Seems to fit much more what Fate and the others often used.

For flight, one could presumably dip into MG just for that to gain 90' flight for one's whole progression just from that single level. Perhaps scaling it according to the MG's level in the same way that the Raptoran and Dragonborn's flight works (start with gliding, then a number of uses of flight per day, then regular flight) might be best?

Is Deflection Barrier constantly active? Note that by level 20, one can have a 34 in charisma, which would basically give you a +12 deflection bonus to armor--the same as an item costing 2,880,000 gold. Perhaps lower the maximum to +1 deflection for every 4 levels in MG that the character possesses? That way it would be in line with the items characters normally get, but wouldn't make them completely redundant. Point barrier seems iffy for the same reason.

Had a few other points, but need to run for now. --Ghostwheel 13:22, 31 August 2009 (MDT)

Well so far I have been pretty impressed with the class as is. A few things caught my attention though which could use some fixing on. One, the Healing ability first and foremost, is way to overpowered in my opinion. As I can easily attain a high cha. in some of the campaigns I play in I would be way better than any healer any of the party could possibly conceive of making. I had though of a formula for it so it could be downgraded a while back but unfortunately I had not typed it down and have since forgot about it for now. Secondly, I shall talk about Bullet Hell. I see no reason for you to want to use it as one big shot at all considering you could spend a good portion of your own funds to upgrade your Device with just a high Bonus so that it will add to each Bullet individually. As you said earlier, each Bullet has to go through DR and res. but I beleive you can work around that because the only DR that might conceivably stop it is DR X/- since Bullet Hell is considered a spell. And you can work around some monsters' individual res. by taking Bullet Hell more than once so you can get a variety of elements to choose from so you can make it easier to bypass the res. I am sure I could find someway to increase this damage output even further if I really tried but at this moment am too tired to look further, so I shall endeavor to do so at a later date. This combo isn't all that big and I suppose I might just be making more out of it then I should. Otherwise I am thoroughly enjoying the class. Once I remember the formula I thought of I shall repost it here for you to look over. It won't be that bad for me and a few friends are quite experienced in making new classes and keeping them balanced. I have also gone through on another class or two here on Wiki and totally revamped them to be playable. If I notice anything else about the class I will also notify you of it. --Lord smiley 03:47, 14 November 2009 (MST)

Suggestion! Failed your save, and I SUGGEST that you read the following:

First off, it is a very good class you made. A very interesting concept indeed. I do have to ask, is it a base class or a prestige class? If it's the later, you would do good on requesting that they have a requirement of at least one level in some arcane spellcasting class and one level in some melee fighting class. And regardless, as much as magical girls are claimed to be ordinary high school students, you might notice they never are. They are either killing everyone in sight for the sake of it, or protecting anyone who ever as much as said "hi" to them, and either honor-bound determinators or living randomnness hopping from here to there. What I'm getting at is that you would do good in restricting the alignment to exclude any neutral character, on both axis (axises?).

I do feel too that the "Device" is too random. It should be more constrained, or a selection of different ones with a sorta sistematic choice system. For example, if it's a prestige class, you can just say that, at the moment of multiclassing, she chooses a significant item of any of her former classes and gains a magically enhaced version of it. So they could have masterwork weapons, magic books that are actually made of magic, musical instruments, etc. If it's a base class, I have not the faintest idea.

The animal companion of sorts that you gave her also should go before everything else. Indeed it might even be a bonus characteristic of the class at first level, like a wizard's familiar. This is because animal-like advisors are one of the first things said girls get, and indeed their power tends to be granted by (and sometimes bound to) said creatures. Which is to say, her sort-of-familiar dies, her powers go away.

And my last piece of advice is that you really should fill the epic levels entry. It's not that hard, just fill the progression of levels for a while and add a note that says they keep going up indefinitely, unless you don't want that, then say so. You should also move some of the most powerful "Formulae" into epic levels only, and perhaps invent some more. May I suggest a bit that protect the girl while she is NOT transformed?

Oh yeah, I DO have a suggestion for your healing needs. Not sure of the name, it can be "The Power of Love" if you want. Here are the mechanics:

The Power of Love (Su): Once per turn, as a swift action, a Magical Girl can pay any amount of her hit points to increase the hit points of any creature she is touching by TWICE the hit points expent. She can also turn it into a Standard action to use it as a short ranged beam attack. In this case, the hit points are expent even if the attack misses or is otherwise blocked. Using this ability in a fellow Magical Girl results in twice the recovered amount, but also blocks her use of The Power of Love for 1d6 rounds per Magical Girl level.

As you can see, it fits thematically with what is expected of a Magical Girl. The last clause is to avoid a "bouncing" use that would result in unlimited health for free. (A swift action, by the way, is one you can do in an instant, even if it's not your turn, like Feather Fall).

                        Signed by

                 -Some Lizardfolk Theurge

Glaring Balance issues

I see several huge issues with balance, mostly regarding direct damage formulae. First of all, Focused Shot and Bullet Hell can do 20d6 damage in a single turn. From what I can tell, you can do this literally every round with no repercussion. The warlock's (a class from Complete Arcane, which is a book referenced in the class. Methinks you're basing this class off of the warlock?) eldritch blast ability functions pretty much the exact same way as Focused Shot (and, for the most part, Bullet Hell), yet eldritch blast can only do 9d6 damage at 20th level. I'm SURE that the warlock has been playtested more than the magical girl, and is therefore more balanced.

The other less-obvious but more game-breaking formula is Spread Shot. In order to explain how broken Spread Shot is, let me just show you the numbers. This assumes that you take Focused Shot as your first formula and Spread Shot as all of the rest.

4th level: 20 ft radius

5th level: 40 ft radius

8th level: 80 ft radius

9th level: 160 ft radius

12th level: 320 ft radius

13th level: 640 ft radius

16th level: 1280 ft radius

17th level: 2560 ft radius

19th level: 5120 ft radius

20th level: 10240 ft radius

At 9th level, you could potentially hit an entire football field for 9d6 points of damage EVERY SINGLE ROUND. At 16th level, you could probably destroy cities within seconds. I really don't think this is what you intended this to be. I suggest putting a damage cap on the formula, limiting the number of times the formula can be taken (at least until epic levels, where the game becomes so broken it doesn't even matter.)

I have to give you props for making a class based on Mahou Shoujo Lyrical Nanoha, though.

EDIT: I thought of a way to balance Healing. Make each use cause 2 points of Charisma damage.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 198.189.249.14 (talk • contribs) . Please sign your posts.

My Opinion

Power - 3/5 I give this class a 3 out of 5 because I noticed that some abilities may need a bit of restriction - such as Spread Shot and Flight to give an example of this - I know spread shot has radius noted above on if you take focus shot and spread shot the rest of the way. Flight is something not really addressed. 90 ft (Good) flight on first one - upgradeable to +90 ft/perfect per upgrade. Lets say I take Flight every level than. I would have a 810 ft (perfect) flight per round (6 seconds) in terms of miles per hour - that's 92 miles per hour. There are other things here and there that need a bit of tweaking to perfect it - although I just really noticed those two things as the obvious breaking chance. As for Focused Shot and Bullet Hell - balancing those is easy enough. All you need to do is instead of 1d6 per level, make it 1d6 per odd level - To summarize this, level 1-2: 1d6, 3-4: 2d6, 5-6: 3d6, and so on. This will prevent severe breaking due to people who think simular to me and go "Maximize Spell-Like Ability" and 6th level and sit there doing a guaranteed 36 damage 3 times a day. At level 20 - with the current system - that's 120 Damage - assuming the ranged touch doesn't crit - that crits, 240 damage. With the modifications proposed: 60 (120 crit) damage. (It's a bit easier to justify that when other classes have a bit harder time doing that much damage, especially every round.} These numbers aren't including feats that boost crit multiplier. --Sigrid 17:32, 5 October 2011 (MDT)

Wording - 4/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 because your wording is actually quite well done. I'm seeing no real issues otherwise on that. Although the plural to formula is formulas/ --Sigrid 17:32, 5 October 2011 (MDT)

Formatting - 3/5 I give this class a 3 out of 5 because this class does need to be finished up a bit. I believe you could easily fit in more Formulas and possibly complete the epic level portions on the class for the sake of saying "This is a fully developed class". I would honestly correcting the "Druid Pet Companion" line you left in there - understandable on the copy/paste - but modifying that or at least noting that the MG has similar to Druid on companion - and then link to the druid animal companion instead of the copy/paste. --Sigrid 17:32, 5 October 2011 (MDT)

Flavor - 4/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 because it's well done in general for flavor. I would recommend filling out the Lore and the remaining blank spots you left in there to help develop it in better. --Sigrid 17:32, 5 October 2011 (MDT)

Edit - Wiki hatred towards me

Group Tactics

Could a party of Magical Girls be called a Sailor Moon Corps? --Redrum 18:38, 18 October 2017 (MDT)

Clairifcations and Suggestions

Transformation sequence states it replaces armor and clothing. I would recommend more specific clarification that items in body and armor slots are moved to dimensional storage until transformation is reversed.

For healing - magical girls often have to deal with curses and other more serious damage in the battlefield. I’d recommend giving healing extra buffs from Heal and Restoration at 8th and 16th levels with a 3/day limit so the clergy don’t get crazy. Maybe limit the heal amount to the caster level times two plus charisma modifier times two. Battles between magical girls would never end if both could full heal every round.

For Flash Move perhaps increase it to greater teleport at 16th as the standard teleport is a pretty dangerous way to get around and an interplanetary teleport 1/day at 20th just to keep up with the overpowered specialist theme.

For spread shot maybe just add +20 feet radius per increment instead of doubling, as much fun as nuking a quarter mile is.

There should an extra level 20 skill. Maybe the stay transformed forever from the prestige class. - - Lexa 06:31, 15 Jan 2019 (PDT)

Be bold. Go ahead and edit this page to deal with the problems on it. --Green Dragon (talk) 08:42, 15 January 2019 (MST)