Talk:Jester (3.5e Class)
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Jester has them now. Genowhirl 15:56, 12 November 2008 (MST)
- And class features. Dunno how I missed that it didn't have them described... Genowhirl 17:01, 12 November 2008 (MST)
- When you add the class features, make sure you have the links working. Surgo 20:32, 12 November 2008 (MST)
This is a Frank and K Tome class. One of their idiosyncrasies is decreasing attack bonus by 5 only for the second attack; they talked it over when they were writing their classes and arrived at the conclusion that taking a -5 penalty after each hit ensures that by the third attack, you won't have a chance of hitting jack at your level apart from a natural 20. To keep extra attacks from BAB doing something level-appropriate, they wrote in that quirk you see now. I appreciate your concern, though; I checked my e-mail and saw the notice and thought, "oh, god, did I screw up the table and someone only just now caught it?". -- Genowhirl 15:44, 21 January 2009 (MST)
Power 5/5 - I give this class a 5 out of 5 because because its really OP, but good idea. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 22.214.171.124 (talk • contribs) 19:30, 23 March 2009 (MDT). Please sign your posts!
- Rating negated, no explanation on the class overpoweredness is given. And rater does not understand rating system.
- Overpoweredness falls under the Power rating only, not Formatting or Flavor, and it should lower the power rating, not raise it. On that note, could you explain how it's overpowered? --Daniel Draco 06:13, 16 April 2009 (MDT)
Wording 5/5 - I give this class a 5 out of 5 because the wording is really good. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 126.96.36.199 (talk • contribs) 19:30, 23 March 2009 (MDT). Please sign your posts!
Formatting 5/2.5 - I give this class a 2.5 out of 5 because its really OP</s> —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 188.8.131.52 (talk • contribs) 19:30, 23 March 2009 (MDT). Please sign your posts!
- Rating negated, rater does not understand rating system, Standards and Formatting isn't balance and power. --Lord Dhazriel 10:17, 16 April 2009 (MDT)
Flavor - 5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because its really good idea, and i think with some tuning it would be great. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 184.108.40.206 (talk • contribs) 19:30, 23 March 2009 (MDT). Please sign your posts!
Wording - 4/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 because I fully understood all of the class features, though, the strange BAB progression is never explained (I personally know it's from races of war, but others wouldn't, and so would look at it and say, "whuh?"). → Rith (talk) 22:37, 16 April 2009 (MDT)
Formatting - 2/5 I give this class a 2 out of 5 because massive portions of the preload are missing, and interwiki linking is lacking. (Also, I do not care if those portions that are missing were there in the beginning just to increase books page count, they're still missing). → Rith (talk) 22:37, 16 April 2009 (MDT)
Flavor - 5/5 I give this class a 4.5 out of 5 because, while most of the flavor related parts of the preload are missing, you just don't beat a comedian in manner of flavor. → Rith (talk) 22:37, 16 April 2009 (MDT)
Power - 1/5 I give this class a 1 out of 5 because 1. The jester is immune to cumpulsions at a low level - very OP. 2. No spell components? Also quite OP. 3. At 14th level they are essetially immune to enchantments. That combined with no cumulsions is idiotic. 4. The jester being able to make an enem flat footed with a swift action is just plain wrong. hat, combined with a sneak attack can deal too much damage - as well as defeating the need to actualy take feats (such as improved feint) or even be sneaky. 5. As a DM i would NEVER allow a PC to play a jester. They are far to OP to even be considered. If you are thinking on letting characters play a jester just make them a fucking mary sue. Also, from a players standpoint, they are far too frustrating an enemy. Not only are they immune to over half of my spells (I am a wizard), they can disable my and other members of my party for large periods of time(20 rounds) - more than long enough to destroy an entire party and ruin a session. 6. They ruin sessions\campaigns\fun. There is no way to improve this class. If you like the name use it, but start from scratch.>>> --220.127.116.11 21:50, 27 June 2009 (MDT)
- WHY is immunity to compulsions overpowered? You're not very clear on that. And WHY is not needing components overpowered? It's not like they're crippling, most games just gloss over them anyway, because they're bad jokes (literally - they're BAD JOKES). Remember that Jester's Feint only applies to the NEXT attack, and the Jester has weaker sneak attack than the rogue, and more MAD. So a rogue who flanks, hides, uses a wand of grease, uses a ring of blink, etc, can deal a lot more damage than the jester. The jester's feint is actually pretty pathetic for damage-dealing. Honestly, you seem to be thinking getting one attack at +8d6 sneak attack at level 20 is worth not needing to be sneaky, when you could be getting five or more attacks all with that sneak attack bonus. Do you think 40d6 damage is negligible? If so, why are you making a big deal about a single sneak attack? Your stance is contradictory, makes no sense, and is full of logical holes. And how are jesters better at disabling people than, say, a wizard? Before you go saying nasty, mean things, maybe you should make an argument that actually holds water. Also, while complaining that the jester is immune to mind-influencing spells at level 14... be aware that the Wizard and maybe the cleric can make the ENTIRE PARTY immune to them at level 15. Oooh, you can do to yourself what the wizard does to the ENTIRE PARTY one level earlier. Big deal. Dragon Child 22:07, 27 June 2009 (MDT)
- 1 - Disarm his face. 2 - Therefore, Spell Component Pouch is overpowered. 3 - Disintegrate instead. 4 - Uncanny Dodge. 5 - This isn't a point against it. Your numbering system has broken down. --TK-Squared 22:22, 27 June 2009 (MDT)
- this rating contain some/many nonsensical elements, therefore it is negated. --Lord Dhazriel 19:48, 30 June 2009 (MDT)
Wording - 4/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 because The descriptions are well worded and, other then some spelling and grammer mistakes, i can understand the jist of what is being said. Although, i would like to see some more detail in certain discritions, such as uses per day. I stand firm in scratching this class. --18.104.22.168 21:50, 27 June 2009 (MDT)
Formatting - 2.5/5 I give this class a 2.5 out of 5 because There are many mistakes, such as "he may allow herself", and others. Dont bother fixing these errors. Scrap te class. --22.214.171.124 21:50, 27 June 2009 (MDT)
- Grammar error belong to wording, rating negated. --Lord Dhazriel 19:48, 30 June 2009 (MDT)
Flavor - 3/5 I give this class a 3out of 5 because This class is a bard with a sneak attack. It took everything good about being a bard, added the best quality of a rogue, and then added enough OP abillities to make mary sue herself jelous. Bad idea from the start --126.96.36.199 21:50, 27 June 2009 (MDT)
- Oh, my, where to begin? Okay, first off, standard feats suck. Feats should not be required to make your character effective at what they do. They should be used to add versatility to a character, with your core abilities coming from the class features. So the Jester is a sneaky character, and he gets a class ability. Also, Bards, despite the occasional useful bit, by and large suck. And the class, if you'll notice, is getting Sneak Attack a touch slower than the Rogue is. And any good rogue has ways to get Sneak Attack every round--a good one is the Ring of Blink, which you can score by level 10. Furthermore, a pile of d6's looks like a lot of damage, but it's really not, considering that 10d6 averages out to, what, 35 damage or so each time? Also, it's very telling that you consider sneak attack to be overpowered and compulsions and enchantments to NOT be. Y'see, Save-or-die (which includes effect like Sleep and Dominate and Color Spray spells and all that) spells are a *much* quicker way of taking things down than doing weapon damage after a while. Which you must have noticed, because you said that some of the abilities negate half your wizard's spells. Any class which isn't getting full casting pretty much needs help to keep up with those that can. And it's not wizards. This class was not written with other classes in mind. It was balanced to stand up fairly well to challenges of the same level (that is, CR). Plenty of monsters have compulsion or enchantment-like abilities, and they just have to be lucky once for one to take you out. As for the errors, I will correct any I find (Honestly, thanks for the freebie, by the way), but this class will not ever be scrapped. It's part of the Tome Material here on the wiki--from the Dungeonomicon. --Genowhirl 22:26, 27 June 2009 (MDT)
- Power got nothing to do with flavor, rating negated. --Lord Dhazriel 19:48, 30 June 2009 (MDT)
- Overall it just a big, scrap the class, it a mary sue and no point is made. It doesn't follow the rating guidelines and show a lack of understanding of the rating system by the rater. Therefore all rating except wording (the only one making sense) are negated until justified. If the rater want it rating re-established, he need to backup his point in this discussion. Thank you for your understanding. --Lord Dhazriel 19:48, 30 June 2009 (MDT)
Power - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because it's powerful enough to keep par with a wizard, druid, and cleric, without actually being overpowered.--Dragon Child 21:57, 27 June 2009 (MDT)
Wording - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because all of its abilities are clear. --Dragon Child 21:57, 27 June 2009 (MDT)
Formatting - 4.5/5 I give this class a 4.5 out of 5 because it just needs the abilities that reference spells to be links to be good (once they're fixed, this rating can auto be bumped up to a 5. --Dragon Child 21:57, 27 June 2009 (MDT)
Flavor - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because it feels like a jester - it makes traps, play pranks and embarrasses enemies, and the ability names are wonderful. --Dragon Child 21:57, 27 June 2009 (MDT)
I am willing to fill the preload and make a NPC for my favorite tome class if you guys are interested. --The Zanni 01:48, 24 August 2009 (MDT)
- Go right ahead. I'd be glad to see it. As a guide, I don't use full Tome Rules (especially Races of War scaling feats) for the sample encounters, unless I'm making a Races of War sample character. Which I haven't done yet, but I ought to. --Genowhirl 07:54, 25 August 2009 (MDT)
So, the Jester, while not technically proficient with any weapon, takes no penalty for wielding any weapon he so chooses. Does this apply to exotic weapons? What about the bastard sword, capable of being wielded in two hands as a martial, but one as an exotic? Could a Jester wield bigger weapons at no penalty? Pwnester 22:56, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
- Basically, yes. But it's a medium BAB class with Charisma and Dexterity and Intelligence as its main attributes to pump. Likewise, not getting actual 'proficiency' means they can't take things like Weapon Focus. And the Sneak Attack damage would eventually be outstripping whatever weapon they use anyway. So, sure, a Jester can run around with a Large Greatsword (assuming he can pick the thing up), but it's actually not that great an option for him...Now, if he got a *table* (I seem to remember the 'improvised weapon' charts in Complete Warrior ended up with a largish table being the deal. It can provide a shield bonus, good bludgeoning damage, and the legs could be argued to give a bonus to disarming/tripping.) --Genowhirl 02:23, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
- That said, The Tomes has rules that basically say that anyone who uses a weapon for a level automatically gets proficiency with that weapon (martial types and Fighters also have the ability to spend a week/day respectively training to have a chance at getting proficiency with a weapon). I don't think there's any advantage to picking up a big table if you're following Tome rules, however. At least that's what I think I can make out of the whole passage about abolishing weapon size rules. It looks like it can be hard to game the system with weapon sizes with the default weapon rules because of the whole 'if the size increase puts it over the two-handed category for you, you can't use it at all' clause. That said, I suppose you could wield a bastard sword in two hands for a level then upgrade that to a large 2d8 bastard sword once you get proficiency for it, but then you're giving up TWF (and synergy with stuff like Combat School and Sneak Attack) and your Edge bonus against certain opponents (if you're a martial type). I guess you could always dual wield one-handed kusarigamas... --Finfreeze 14:56, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
Power - 1/5 I give this class a 1 out of 5 because it is completely overpowered. A few of the abilities (Harlequin's Mask, Power Slide, Jester's Feint) seem too powerful for the level at which they are acquired. But the real killer is the spells that are bumped by too many levels.
For comparison, a 2nd level Jester can cast the incredibly useful Glitterdust, which a specialist wizard (who has worse HD, a worse BAB, worse armor and weapons, and worse skills in order to procure the ability to cast spells well) cannot cast until 3rd level. He can also cast Sleet Storm, a spell the wizard won't be able to cast until 5th level.
The problem continues all the way up to the middle levels -- Feeblemind and Nightmare and Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound are listed as 3rd level Jester spells (gained at 7th level) while they are 5th level Wizard spells (gained at 9th level). If you look at the 3rd level Bard spells, there are several good 4th level Wizard spells included (Charm Monster, Confusion, and Lesser Geas). There aren't any 5th level spells. There shouldn't be for Jester either.
I *love* the flavor of the class -- but many of the spells and abilities are granted at too low a level.
- You do realize that means the DCs of those spells is also reduced to be in line with the random number generator? So if the effect themselves aren't really issues (because wizards have things like color spray and grease at first level), and the DCs aren't issues, then what is the issue? -- Jota 17:05, 2 September 2010 (MDT)
--Tobas 16:46, 2 September 2010 (MDT)
Wording - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because it is clearly worded and easy to understand. A few things are implied that ought to be spelled out explicitly, though. The Jester can cast spells, and can wear light armor, but it doesn't explicitly state that they can wear light armor without risking arcane spell failure. --Tobas 16:46, 2 September 2010 (MDT)
Flavor - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because Jesters are awesome, and the game definitely could stand to have a Bard-like class that focuses on debuffing the bad guys with mockery and magic in the same way the bard focuses on buffing the party with encouragement and magic. It's a great idea, just balanced to make the party enchanter cry. --Tobas 16:46, 2 September 2010 (MDT)
- Tobas, thank you from the bottom of my heart. You gave a fully objective review and didn't let your opinion of the power creep into other parts of the review (I've seen too many reviews that given a bad rating on flavor because 'it is extremely OP'. That is very, very rare 'round these parts. Now, I do think your power criteria is askew. Or might be helped if the guys who wrote this didn't do it on a class-on-class Arena-style play. They weren't looking at Jesters vs. Wizards--they were looking at Jesters vs. monsters. The compulsion/mind-affecting thing is sort of nice. And a survival trait in a party, because Enchantments are more or less save-or-dies. Except you don't die, you're just called 'mind-slave' the rest of your life. Bard spellcasting just ain't that great. That the Jester can beat it is a good thing, but it helps to look at it on a spell-by-spell basis. As an extreme example, Polar Ray just isn't worth an 8th-level spell slot. Given how it doesn't do area damage, it could be second-level, below Fireball and Lightning Bolt. In any case, the Jester is an extremely MAD-heavy class. They really need Charisma (spellcasting and abilities), Dexterity (they are a sneaky sort of class), and Intelligence (skill monkey). If one wanted to participate in actual fighting, they wouldn't hurt from some Strength and Constitution. So, out of Str/Dex/Con/Int/Wis/Cha, their really must-have attributes, especially in a smaller party where there's less division of labor, would be Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, and Charisma. As a result of this, Jesters tend to be a little fragile. I will admit hilarity ensues if they're played by someone who's pretty rules-savvy and with a little luck, but given how it's called a Jester, I doubt anyone would actually complain much about this... --Genowhirl 20:23, 2 September 2010 (MDT)
- Oh, forgot to mention Power Slide and Jester's Feint. See above regarding MAD. Believe me, the Jester really needs Power Slide if he can't persuade someone to meat shield for him. d6 HD and a low Con mod make them fragile. Light armor and no shields? Easy to hit. As for Jester's Feint, it's one free sneak attack a round. There's ways to get full attack sneak attacks, and the Feint, while handy, isn't that strong. Especially since the Jester's Sneak Attack lags behind that of a Rogue's. At level 4, he's 1d6 behind a Rogue. At level 5, he's 2d6 behind a rogue--that's a greatsword of damage down. It's a reliable source of damage, but it's low damage. And a rogue can get reliable Sneak Attack damage anyway. --Genowhirl 20:30, 2 September 2010 (MDT)
First, i should say this class is awesome and i love it. 5/5... great...
Now, at the end it discusses the Eternal Trickster Ability and that it allows you to "become a personification of the Laughing God Who has No Temples". Who is the Laughing God Who has No Temples and where can i find stats on him. I'd like to do this...
- I'd have to get an answer out of K, seeing as how he wrote this (and the Dungeonomicon Monk, as I recall). I just always assumed it's a trickster god. Sort of like Loki--not really a god but invited to hang out and play cards with 'em. That said, a Trickery is a portfolio option for the Laughing God, you can bet...But in this specific sense, well, they don't age and they have a permanent Mind Blank happening. I'd say those are effects of that fragment of deific meyhem taking up residence in them. --Genowhirl 01:19, 6 December 2010 (MST)
I was wondering about the spell list. Some of the spells have no link, and when I searched for them, I got nothing (I tried Unluck, Baleful Transposition, and Teleport Trap). Would you please make pages for the spells that don't have them?--"Enialis 23:18, 10 April 2011 (MDT)"
- Those're non-SRD spells. Teleport trap seems to be a mistake for "Scattering Trap", a spell in the PHB2 which marks several floor squares and anything that steps on one of said squares gets teleported a short distance in a random direction. For the rest, try the Spell Compendium. Beyond that, I haven't a clue. 188.8.131.52 10:46, 11 April 2011 (MDT)
Power - <<<0>>>/5 I give this class a <<<0>>> out of 5 because <<<it is way overpowered and unbalanced. You get too much at early levels and not enough at later ones. the Jesters feint in particular is overpowered. You ranged feint as a swift without the target getting there BAB. Normally a feint is a standard melee against a sense motive + BAB.>>> --184.108.40.206 01:17, 1 May 2011 (MDT)
Wording - <<<4>>>/5 I give this class a <<<I4>>> out of 5 because <<<it's pretty good, but could use some polishing and clarification.>>> --220.127.116.11 01:17, 1 May 2011 (MDT)
Flavor - <<<4>>>/5 I give this class a <<<4>>> out of 5 because <<<there are some abilities that do not make in game sense. For example, why does a touch attack double someones armor penalty. All he did was touch you. What else is going on?>>> --18.104.22.168 01:17, 1 May 2011 (MDT)
Balance - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because it seems to hit that right spot of balance. It won't run the entire game like a full caster would, but you always feel like you have something to contribute, in and out of combat. --22.214.171.124 05:28, 12 June 2013 (MDT)
Wording - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because the abilities seem clear to understand. --126.96.36.199 05:28, 12 June 2013 (MDT)
Flavor - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because I've always liked the concept of a jester class, and this is the best implementation I've seen. --188.8.131.52 05:28, 12 June 2013 (MDT)