Talk:Grim (3.5e Class)
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Power - 3/5 I give this class a 3 out of 5 because it has full BAB, spellcasting options, two strong saves, the ability to gain enhancement bonuses to combat abilities, the ability to gain DR, and the ability to gain fast healing. I feel that a few things either need to be toned down, such as the BAB, removed, or changed to be a tad bit less powerful. Just my thoughts, to be fair though I am rating this so brutally because I see this as having a good chance at becoming a Featured Article. --Green Dragon 23:37, 29 July 2008 (MDT)
Wording - 4/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 because the wording is not on par with the wording in the sourcebooks. All the flavor text reads great, however the class features do not state what level they are acquired, nor do they have a sentence of flavor text (see a recent WotC publication for the correct wording of the class features). great work though! --Green Dragon 23:37, 29 July 2008 (MDT)
Formatting - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because it is formatted almost perfectly. Other than the Template:Quote's not having an |src parameter, no spaces inside the headers padding the header text (this is just preference ;)) present, the spell lists and epic feat lest not using <sup>'s (references are another valid option), and the spells known table not floating (if this is what WotC books are doing these days), it looks great. The amount of links looks great, and none of the links redirect. Great work! --Green Dragon 23:37, 29 July 2008 (MDT)
Flavor - 4/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 because, although it is more than detailed in most areas, it is lacking an example NPC and encounter description. --Green Dragon 23:37, 29 July 2008 (MDT)
 Reworking for Balance
Wow, this is turning out to be a major project. I'm finding it difficult to get a good middle-ground on something that seems like a cross between a cleric's abilities to defeat undead (but with touch attacks), and a rage style ability (but fewer rounds per day with greater benefits that can be used outside of combat). I really had to have the class keep its full Base Attack Bonus, without it, he's too weak to be anything more than a NPC Warrior when not Transformed. I almost want to get rid of the class's spells, but they add a lot of flavor, even if they aren't useful. I still need to trim it down for ease of use as well. The Disrupting Touch and Cancelation Touch are especially problematic for balance, as it still doesn't deal damage enough to compare to a wizard or cleric of the same level, or uses per day, or safety of use (since it is a touch attack). Oh well, any comments would be appreciated.--Ganteka 00:31, 20 August 2008 (MDT)
- Standards-wise, the spells should likely follow the Paladin or Ranger (no 0th level spells, some 1st level spells are cantrips instead).
- Aura of Unease --> what if the creature saves? Does it have to make a saving throw again?
- Instead of a permanent spell, I would make one of his transformation abilities become permanent and make it Ex instead of Su. Why? Then you can have a permanent +4 belt of giant strength that works in antimagic (so he is less hosed). --Aarnott 08:40, 20 August 2008 (MDT)
- Yeah, I really liked those suggestions. I tried to implement them as follows: The spell list now nearly reflects that of a paladin or ranger, with the exception of one more spell per day (for the reason of it being a spontaneous spell caster with a limited selection of spells to choose from). One spell extra seemed balanced for a moderate casting class as a difference between Spontaneous and Prepared Casting for full casters is about 2 spells.
- I tried to fix the wording for the Aura of Unease, though it may need more work.
- I nixed Continuous Spell in favor of the permanent Extraordinary Body ability, and bumped it to higher levels as well.
- I tried to rework the Disrupting Touch and Cancelation Touch abilities, they are a bit closer to making sense, but something still seems off about them.
- Also, how do I get rid of the "Needs More Description" stub thing? --Ganteka 18:02, 20 August 2008 (MDT)
 Reworking for Balance... Again
So, I went back to the drawing board and started reworking this beast again. If anything looks glaringly wrong, point it out. Granted, I realize that some (many) things will be changed. --Ganteka 12:26, 20 November 2008 (MST)
Power - 3/5 I give this class a 3 out of 5 because you can't transform enough. Even by fairly high levels you can only transform for a few rounds a day, and this class doesn't have many other powers to offset being able to use it's main power so little. --Zelos 22:17, 27 December 2008 (MST)
Wording - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because it's well worded, descriptive, and interesting. --Zelos 22:17, 27 December 2008 (MST)
Flavor - 4/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 because it's an interesting class, but it seems lacking somewhat. Needs a flaw besides the animal thing to make it a bit more interesting to play, like have them weaken if they don't catch enough ghosts or something. --Zelos 22:17, 27 December 2008 (MST)
- I have to disagree about needing flaws to make the class interesting. In fact, having a flaw in a base class is rare. The only flaw I can even recall off the top of my head for a base class is a barbarian's illiteracy. A base class should open up possibilities, not limit them. As such, even illiteracy is overcome by spending a few skill points. I feel that there are certainly enough options and descriptive flavor available to make a wide variety of different characters. Heck, if anything, it almost has too much (it is one of the longest classes on the wiki). As for the class's Power, that's up in the air at the moment. The testplay should reveal some insight on that. Anyways, thanks for taking the time to rate. --Ganteka 15:07, 18 January 2009 (MST)
 Even More Reworking for Balance
Okay, so I went back and changed some things again. Swapped out full Base Attack progression for Cleric style Base Attack progression. Switched the good save from Reflex to Will, modified Transformation to work like Rage, and upped skills from 2 to 4. Yes, I shall be testing this out shortly and will report back with the results soon enough (though perhaps that shall be a month before the test is complete). --Ganteka 15:07, 18 January 2009 (MST)
 Neverending Reworking for Balance
Ah, I think I might finally be narrowing down the meat of the class here with Version 6, trimming away the grizzle and getting back to my original intentions. It now functions like a divine spellcasting warlock/barbarian sorta. There are still some kinks to be worked out of a few class abilities, and the balance needs to be honed a bit more. But this is a lot closer, and hopefully easier to play, than previous versions. Now, I just need to finish tinkering, test it out and get some ratings on it. --Ganteka 12:26, 6 May 2009 (MDT)
 A Compatible 4e Version
I would like to update this great class to 4e. I will do it, if it is alright with you Ganteka. I will give you credit for the class and, if I can, myself for the upgrading.--Storm Elf5 07:55, 29 June 2009 (MDT)
- Yeah, if you want to make a grim for 4e, go right ahead. Hopefully it won't take you as long as it took me. As for credit, just mention a concept thing on the Talk page and that's good enough for me. Heck, you really don't even have to mention it, it's all for the good of the game. --Ganteka 10:28, 29 June 2009 (MDT)
Power - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because it is excellently balanced, and has many interesting tricks up it's sleeve. The class has a great range of versatility granted to it from the several synergies in the grim alterations (my personal favorite being the Wings, Fast Movement, Reflex Boon, Improved Uncanny Dodge, and Dexterity Boon set). --The Mister 11:21, 6 August 2009 (MDT)
Wording - 4/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 because some of the more minor wording could be repaired, and the talking about saves in the rending touch ability area could be moved to the rending nullifacation touch area. --The Mister 11:21, 6 August 2009 (MDT)
Flavor - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because this class has a beautiful concept behind it, yet has enough wiggle room to make some truly diverse and exotic characters. In our party, we currently have 2 grims that prove this. One being myself and halfway through that list I gave above, the other being our party damage dealer and going down the Great Form, Elemental Attack/Body, path. --The Mister 11:21, 6 August 2009 (MDT)