Talk:Greater Critical (3.5e Feat)

[edit] Balance

This seems a bit too powerful to me. I'd suggest it as an epic feat rather than a regular one. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.24.152.196 (talk • contribs) 2007-05-17 17:41:52. Please sign your posts!

Statistically speaking, it's only slightly more powerful than Improved Critical.

Let's take your standard battleaxe. Normal it's 20/×3. With IC, it's 19–20/×3. With GC, it's [3 + (3 − 1)] 20/×5.

Now let's run a scenario: you roll a natural 19 and natural 20 on successive attacks. For the sake of argument we'll assume both rolls represent a successful hit. With IC, the average damage is (4.5 + x) ×3 with the first hit (where x represents total damage bonuses due to Str, magic enhancement, Power Attack, favored enemy, etc.), and (4.5 + x) ×3 with the second. Total damage is (4.5 + x) ×6 = 27 + 6x.

Now let's run that same scenario with GC: First hit is 4.5 + x. The second is (4.5 + x) ×5. Total (4.5 + x) ×6 = 27 + 6x. Exactly the same as it is with IC.

GC slightly greater benefit comes from the fact that there may be instances where a natural 19 is a miss, and that more often that not, if a character has GC, it'll also have IC. —Sledged (talk) 19:04, 17 May 2007 (MDT)

[edit] Prerequisites

Shouldn't this feat have Weapon Focus and Improved Critical as prerequisites, to build a feat tree? Also, I'd rather have a feat that can be taken earlier (lower BAB prereq) but only increases the crit multiplier by one, instead of doubling it. This feat gets a bit silly with the pick and the scythe (x7 ??). If the player finds some other sources of additional crit multipliers, he can make a really sick build. --Mkill 11:01, 24 July 2007 (MDT)

I'm not looking to build a feat tree with this feat. This feat was originally conceived as a variant for Improved Critical, but I decided to make a feat it its own right. So Greater Critical has the same prereqs, save that I knocked up the BAB requirement because I thought it'd be a bit much to have both feats by 9th level. I may lower the BAB prereq to +13 so that single-classed characters of a 3/4-BAB class can take it at 18th level.

I don't want IC as a prereq, because I want players to be able to choose either one without forcing them to have the other.

Similar to what I stated above, statistically, a scythe with a with GC is not much different than a scythe with IC (×7 versus 19–20/×4). The difference is the same as the one between a battleaxe and a longsword (×3 versus 19–20/×2) or a heavy pick and a scimitar (×4 versus 18–20/×2).

As far as crit stacking, WotC is careful about creating feats and abilities that increase crit multipliers. The only instance I can think of is a class feature of the master thrower in the Complete Warrior, and it explicitly states that it does not stack with any other effects that increase the crit multiplier of a weapon, as does GC. —Sledged (talk) 13:16, 26 July 2007 (MDT)

The difference being that a scythe at 19-20 has a much lower chance of hitting Massive Damage than a scythe at x7. Lets have a look at the maths: For the x4 scythe, you need to hit 13- at least +5 on the damage roll. At x7, you need only an 8, which, with a reasonably high strength (18 will be fairly common among Level 16 fighters) and a +1 weapon at least, massive damage is certain on any critical. With a strength of 18, a fighter still needs another 7 from enhancement and the roll to hit Massive. MorkaisChosen 11:35, 22 November 2007 (MST)

Ah, yes. Massive damage. Hadn't considered that, but I don't think it's that much more of an issue than with IC. This feat can't be taken until 16th level, even then you'd have to have a fighter bonus feat to take it at that point. Otherwise, it'll be the last feat taken before epic level. At minimum a 16th-level Strength-based build will have a +3 weapon (not including weapon special abilities), a 16 base Strength, and a belt of giant strength +4 for a total of +8 to damage. Take other factors into account like two-handed weapon use, Power Attack, enlarge person, flaming burst/icy burst/shocking burst, inherent bonus (wish/miracle/manual), etc, and massive damage seems as likely with ×4 as it does with ×7. —Sledged (talk) 09:24, 25 November 2007 (MST)

It makes it a lot easier with a pick and shield, too- you can get the shield bonus and you don't even need the extra bonus from 2-handed use. MorkaisChosen 09:29, 1 December 2007 (MST)