Talk:Druid (Evaluational Base Class Layout)/Table header

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Table header[edit]

Here's an alternate suggestion for the table header.

Table: The Druid

Hit Die: d8

Level Base
Attack Bonus
Saving Throws Special Spells per Day
Fort Ref Will 0th 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th
1st +0 +2 +0 +2 Animal companion, nature sense, wild empathy 3 1
2nd +1 +3 +0 +3 Woodland stride 4 2
  1. This conceptually places the saving throws together.
  2. It makes several cosmetic changes in the code which make for easier readability, and hence maintainability.
    1. Every delimiter (| or ||) is surrounded by spaces to make it easier to find.
    2. Every cell that includes formatting information starts a new line.
    3. Every cell that starts a new conceptual block (e.g. spells) starts a new line.
    4. rowspan and colspan come before styles to make the layout stand out more.
    5. Use align="left" rather than style="text-align: left;" because it's easier to understand at a glance, not to mention quicker to type.
    6. Indent new lines an extra space after the delimiter to make them line up with row markup, and stand out visually from wrapping lines.
  3. Note the superscripted ordinals. This, admittedly, is harder to maintain, but I think the visual effect is worth it.
  4. Note the link from Spells per Day.

--Cúthalion 21:28, 2 April 2007 (MDT)

I like the saving throws together — a lot. Also I like the <sup>'s around the spells per day however I think the level should not use <sup>'s as in my opinion it does not look as good. The link from Spells per Day will come in handy when classes start to get formatted this method — good thinking. Overall I think all you need to do is make the "level" column not use <sup>'s. Other than that I like this one much more — good work. --Green Dragon 13:23, 9 April 2007 (MDT)
I like it except for--putting my standartista hat on-- the #5 ( align="left" rather than style="text-align: left;"). The second is structure/presentation separation and this is much better for maintenance--not talking of semantics, accessibility… An even better solution is to move from inline-styling to separated CSS: move the style="text-align: left to a class. Also, (IMHO) Special would like better if centered
David Latapie ( | @) — blog 19:11, 9 April 2007 (MDT)
I agree—"Special" probably would look better centered. About the style="text-align: left vs. align="left" I am neutral. I see the align="left" as easier to understand for new users and being easier to type all while not following standards as well. I could care less either way. Additionally I agree a class should be made to cover this aspect. --Green Dragon 13:11, 10 April 2007 (MDT)
The class would take care of the readability part. Even better, something like .table-class th {text-align:left} (Ideally, we would use thead th to easily discriminate simple tab and crosstabs, but thead is not allowed/generated by MediaWiki).
David Latapie ( | @) — blog 13:23, 10 April 2007 (MDT)
the class approach seems to be the best solution. I've modified the CSS for three classes class="left", class="right", and class="center". In retrospect, I wonder why I didn't do this when I first put the d20 table styles in the CSS. —Sledged (talk) 11:51, 20 April 2007 (MDT)
Would you mind changing all the locations where they could be used and make them used? I want to make sure the actual page stays up with the discussions... --Green Dragon 14:08, 22 April 2007 (MDT)

Table: The Druid

Hit Die: d8

Level Base
Attack Bonus
Saving Throws Special Spells per Day
Fort Ref Will 0th 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th
1st +0 +2 +0 +2 Animal companion, nature sense, wild empathy 3 1
2nd +1 +3 +0 +3 Woodland stride 4 2

Unsuping the levels and moving "special" to center. IMO "special" looks worse, but the levels look better. But everything else is neat! How do we upgrade old tables to this without redoing the entire thing? Armond 14:40, 10 April 2007 (MDT)

After fiddling around on the Base Assassin, I've changed my mind - center does look better, though now I'm stuck trying to figure out how to right-align the HD. *pokes around* Ugh, can't find it. Armond 15:03, 10 April 2007 (MDT)
The HD should not be left aligned — the new books by WotC have the HD in the center and we are following suite. Also, upgrading tables to this method will be easy (as I am sure you just figured out :)). --Green Dragon 17:56, 10 April 2007 (MDT)
If done well, everything related to presentation shall be done via CSS. AFAIK, only the administrator may modify the CSS—he certainly can give such a writing access to someone else if he sees fit. Once one has writing access to the CSS, upgrading is don in the blonk of an eye.
David Latapie ( | @) — blog 01:14, 11 April 2007 (MDT)
So if all the headers are now centered, do we want to make it standard practice to make all headers (not just class tables) centered? Also, under spells, it's not "0th", it's just supposed to be "0". —Sledged (talk) 07:46, 11 April 2007 (MDT)
I think it is O at Wizards’s too. There is some antecedents, such as the Isaac Asimov’s “Zeroth Law of Robotics” and the “Zeroth Law of Thermodynamics”. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by David Latapie (talkcontribs) . Please sign your posts!
It is 0 (the number, not the letter), but as seen below this presents a small problem. Armond 11:13, 11 April 2007 (MDT)
Pardon my mistake. Some months ago, I did not understand how people could ever do such a mistake and I now routinely do it :(
David Latapie ( | @) — blog 11:57, 11 April 2007 (MDT)
I understand - to be honest, I didn't even notice it until I went into the coding to post my reply :P Armond 12:11, 11 April 2007 (MDT)


Table: The Druid

Hit Die: d8

Level Base
Attack Bonus
Saving Throws Special Spells per Day
Fort Ref Will 0 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th
1st +0 +2 +0 +2 Animal companion, nature sense, wild empathy 3 1
2nd +1 +3 +0 +3 Woodland stride 4 2
Problem with taking out the "th"... Is there a cleaner way to fix that than simply adding it back in and changing the color to exactly match the background? (Besides, it's pretty awesome :P)
I'd say let's take each table individually and make them look their best instead of arbitrarily making everything centered when we might find something we don't want centered. Upgrade was indeed relatively simple, btw, though I had to fiddle a bit when it decided to put the spell levels under the level/bab/saves (i.e. take out spell levels on a noncasting class). Armond 08:56, 11 April 2007 (MDT)
Center aligning of headers in tables will not become the standard practice all over D&D Wiki — just in DnD Classes (So, as Armond said, "take each table individually and make them look their best"). Also, I think just putting "0" looks okay, I don't think the size change of the column really matters... --Green Dragon 16:38, 11 April 2007 (MDT)
I think we should center the "Special" header in the epic table, too. —Sledged (talk) 15:16, 21 April 2007 (MDT)
Agree. Done. --Green Dragon 14:09, 22 April 2007 (MDT)
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