Talk:Dashing Swordsman (3.5e Prestige Class)
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Can somebody please rate this prestige class? It has potential, and I hope to revise it a little... tell me what you think. --Sir Milo Teabag 17:10, 16 January 2008 (MST)
- This looks beautiful. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sir Milo Teabag (talk • contribs) 14:41, 18 January 2008 (MST). Please sign your posts!
- One thing is that the (Su), (Ex), etc should go before the abilities. --Green Dragon 16:04, 18 January 2008 (MST)
- Really? Since when? I feel sooo out of the loop :P --Pwsnafu 19:27, 20 January 2008 (MST)
- Wow, I meant to say after. Lol... I must have been very tired or semething. I saw them before, and I guess... Wow. Sorry. Yes, they are supposed to go after :S. --Green Dragon 12:50, 21 January 2008 (MST)
- Another thing: Dramatic Entrance 1 could be more generic and less specific. Instead of only working with glass it could just make 1 hardness of any object ignored. Currently I feel it would only work in very specific scenarios. --Green Dragon 22:51, 21 January 2008 (MST)
- I suppose so. It should be all better now. There hasn't been a rating yet, though, and Flair 2 still needs a little editing by someone with OA. --Sir Milo Teabag 16:59, 23 January 2008 (MST)
- Hee hee, Order of the Stick fan? :D -- Eiji 15:07, 5 February 2008 (MST)
- You bet! I wonder what Rich Burlew would think of this. --Sir Milo Teabag 15:54, 5 February 2008 (MST)
- MoI me when you are ready to have it re-rated. --Aarnott 08:28, 26 March 2008 (MDT)
Rating - 10/10
This is a 10. Excellent work.--Dmilewski 05:25, 24 January 2008 (MST)
- Lets have an encore! 10/10 from me as well, I must play this! -- Eiji 21:48, 17 February 2008 (MST)
I think this could be featured article material. The only thing I'm hesitant about is the lack of images and the like...everything else about this class is awesome. --Barnacle Ed 09:12, 8 March 2008 (MST)
- Great! While you're at it, I'd like my class to get its rating back. It's a little disconcerting to have my wonderful prestige class lose its status so suddenly. I'd do it myself, but it feels unethical to give a good rating to my own class, or to recommend it for featured article. --Sir Milo Teabag 17:03, 22 March 2008 (MDT)
- I would say; nominate it, but it will have to have some work on formatting done on it before it becomes featured. The last PrC to become nominated improved greatly in the time it took to become featured. --Sam Kay 04:46, 23 March 2008 (MDT)
- That was yours, wasn't it? Was it hard to see changes in your article, and did they mess it up? But I suppose your advice is good. If it gets attention, it may at least be rated again. I'll MoI you. --Sir Milo Teabag 15:07, 23 March 2008 (MDT)
Featured Article Nomination
Please feel free to re-nominate it once it meets the FA criteria and when all the major issues brought up in this nomination have been dealt with.
I have nominated the Dashing Swordsman partially because I hope it will improve as more people look at it, partially because of a recommendation, and mostly because I actually think it is that good. I like how it turns a style-based character into one that can match poewr-oriented ones. It allows the bard to finally catch up wiht the wizard or druid. --Sir Milo Teabag 15:11, 23 March 2008 (MDT)
Oppose — This is nowhere near formatted right. I would recommend you use the DnD Prestige Class Preload and then touch up to match the Blackguard (Evaluational Prestige Class Layout) and the Spider Rider (DnD Prestige Class). --Green Dragon 23:19, 23 March 2008 (MDT)
- Oops. I'll fix that before any other users present their evaluations. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sir Milo Teabag (talk • contribs) 07:32, 24 March 2008 (MDT). Please sign your posts!
- So just leave it alone for a while? --Sir Milo Teabag 13:19, 24 March 2008 (MDT)
- The epic section does not follow the preload. --Green Dragon 13:28, 21 April 2008 (MDT)
- Actually not much on this follows the preload. I know this will entail a lot of work but I would recommend that you put this entire prestige class through the preload so it comes out formatted right. Current issues include the prerequisite area, the table, the epic section, etc. It really needs to be ran through the preload (to run it through just click "add new PrC" and name it "DS" or something. Do not press save, just fill everything out (copy and paste) and then copy and paste the entire page over to this page, replacing it). --Green Dragon 13:33, 21 April 2008 (MDT)
- Okay, I've copy and pasted the Preload onto a word document at home to get a look at it and....WHOAAAA... this is pretty intimidating. I have a limited knowledge of what all this computer code means and with no idea of where everything is (there are no spaces) I am totally lost. Let's hope I can straighten this out in a week or so. WOW--Sir Milo Teabag 17:43, 21 April 2008 (MDT)
- Now I'm curious... Am I supposed to take the preload, copy and paste it onto a word file and work with it there...Or is the preload simply the text I find when I open a new prestige class and it says "put X here. Put Y here etc. What in the world is a preload anyway?--Sir Milo Teabag 14:32, 13 May 2008 (MDT)
- Yeah, the thing when you add a new prestige class. It can also be found (in a nicer formatted matter) when editing that page. --Green Dragon 15:19, 12 March 2009 (MDT)
Comment — This needs an example NPC. --Green Dragon 12:59, 29 March 2008 (MDT)
- I'll try to get one, but I would appreciate it if somebody would do it for me. I see that the Hashashin guy is getting aid. --Sir Milo Teabag 20:25, 30 March 2008 (MDT)
- Aid by a friend of his in real life ;). I'll help if I find time. --Green Dragon 01:12, 31 March 2008 (MDT)
- I may also like to get a picture for this class. A picture of Puss-in-boots or Jack Sparrow or somebody might be good. --Sir Milo Teabag 14:07, 18 April 2008 (MDT)
Comment — The class skills need to be written out. --Green Dragon 13:40, 21 April 2008 (MDT)
- Looks like I'm not done yet. (sigh) --Sir Milo Teabag 15:42, 21 April 2008 (MDT)
Comment — I ended the nomination since this has not been worked on in a while, and still is not correct. --Green Dragon 15:19, 12 March 2009 (MDT)
- Sorry. Maybe someday it will return from the dust...--Sir Milo Teabag 21:01, 2 April 2009 (MDT)
In the flair ability they get, everything makes sense but this: If he goes for too long (10 minutes), he tires and takes a cumulative -1 penalty per round. What exactly is meant by that? If he uses it every round for 10 minutes? If he doesn't use it at all for 10 minutes? If he uses it more than once in 10 minutes? And what does he take a penalty to? The flair check? Attack rolls? Skill checks? Various other things? --Daniel Draco 05:35, 31 March 2008 (MDT)
- I've made a minor edit or two that I hop cleans things up. Please mention any other problems you use. Also, I would appreciate it if you would help me to get a sample NPC for the Dashing Swordsman. It's the only thing I need before it will be ready for a rerating and possible featured article. --Sir Milo Teabag 06:28, 1 April 2008 (MDT)
- Sure, I'm not really working on anything else right now...at least nothing as worthwhile as this. (My Havoc Brute is admittedly a waste of time). So do you want someone to build the NPC from the ground up, or do you have it designed and just need it made into a wiki page? --Daniel Draco 08:41, 1 April 2008 (MDT)
- Ground up. I have the levels, race, alignment, and that's it. On second thought, the alignment is impossible given bard, so I guess even that must go.--Sir Milo Teabag 17:27, 2 April 2008 (MDT)
- Alright, gimme that info and I'll do it for you if you want :). --Daniel Draco 18:06, 2 April 2008 (MDT)
- They're already there. Read the Sample Encounter Carefully. --Sir Milo Teabag 06:31, 3 April 2008 (MDT)
- Ah, I see it. Before I start though, be aware that, as a bard, he cannot be lawful good...closest he can be is neutral good, and in this case he is an ex-paladin (therefore having three mostly-dead levels). --Daniel Draco 08:51, 3 April 2008 (MDT)
- Unless, as it just occurred to me, he took the levels of bard, changed alignment, then took the levels of paladin. --Daniel Draco 08:52, 3 April 2008 (MDT)
- Never mind. I'll try to make one on my own. --Sir Milo Teabag 16:24, 20 April 2008 (MDT)
- Bad news. I tried to make the character an NPC first and then create a link, but something screwed up the NPC. I'll try to wrap it up, but for some reason the stuff doesn't show up. I need somebody to straighten out Ilighiera Ligriv (DnD NPC). It's probably a simple bug (this sort of thing usually is). If it can be fixed, we could somehow connect it to the page (I noticed Sam Kay did something similar) and my prestige class would be ready for rating and possibly election as the 3rd favored article.
- I have done what I can. It is in the hands of the admins now.--Sir Milo Teabag 16:59, 20 April 2008 (MDT)
- Alright. Thanks to Sledged for fixing it. It should be ready for FA and rating now! --Sir Milo Teabag 09:41, 21 April 2008 (MDT)
- I would actually say with the flair that there isn't much point having it as is without some way for it to decrease during a battle. Have you ever had a D&D battle last over 2 minutes? I haven't. I would make it last normally 1 round per charisma modifier and after that you get a -1 each round. The penalties go away after you have rested for 5 minutes. Even that seems generous. The "bonus to flair checks this round" is a lot more useful if flair checks actually decrease... Perhaps something hasher would make the character more exciting to play -- a cumulative -1 to flair checks each time you use one (5 min rest allows this to reset). --Aarnott 10:13, 21 April 2008 (MDT)
- Sorry it's so awkward. I was trying to make some connection to an OOTS strip in which the party dashing swordsman ran out of steam during a helms deep- style battle. --Sir Milo Teabag 19:29, 29 April 2008 (MDT)
- Also when he fought the Sea Trolls! Or was that they were too stupid to get his puns? --Aarnott 21:25, 29 April 2008 (MDT)
Why does it require a BAB of 6? That would take an 18th level Bard. --Bazoo 11:52, 21 July 2008 (EST)
- You mean an 8th level bard... --Daniel Draco 22:50, 21 July 2008 (MDT)
From One Fan to Another
I'd like to start by pointing out that I'm an advanced fan of Order of the Stick, a moderately experienced fan of Dungeons & Dragons, and a novice wiki user. The point I'm making here is that I'm critiquing this entry with Elan in mind, with a less-than-expert grasp of D&D, and little idea how edit a Talk:page. That all said.
I feel like the Flair ability is too complex, and trying too hard not to be complex. The primary symptom of the latter condition is the DC of 10 for Flair checks. Flair, as currently defined, is equal to the Dashing Swordsman level, (at least 1,) the CHA bonus, (likely to be 3 or 4,) and +2 for every five ranks in a CHA skill, (a minimum of +4, since the class requires 10 ranks in three such skills; and do these stack? Is this a minimum of +12? If so, that's ludicrous.). There's no getting around the fact that we're looking at a minimum of +8 or +9 on a DC 10 roll. (Roll a d10. Anything other than a 1 succeeds.) At level 2, hell, just take 10. The point of being a Dashing Swordsman, as I saw it, was to heroically succeed against all odds. Taking 10 on a DC 10 does not a hero make. I'd like to see Flair work more like Bardic Knowledge, say equal to Dashing Swordsman level + Charisma modifier with a +2 bonus if you have 5 or more ranks in Perform (Act). This way, first level Dashers will likely only get a maximum of +6 or +7, even with huge CHA scores. Perhaps with a DC of 10, perhaps with something like a DC equal to 10 + the CR. I'm not sure. Just throwing out suggestions. But Flair needs work.
(Also, would it be too much to throw 'Dashing' in front of it? As in, 'Dashing Flair?' I think it sounds way cooler. ;) )
Another issue with Flair is the tiring aspect. Rather than this strange little system, why not just a number per day equal to one of the following: class level, character level, charisma modifier, class level + charisma modifier, charisma score. Personally, I like the Charisma score. Eighteen uses of Dashing Flair is as close to infinite as most people will ever need.
As a consequence of all this Flair business, by the way, we get this little gem in Dueling Parry: "divide the flair result by 5 and add it to the parry check." Elan can't even add 6+6 properly. How about a successful Flair check just adds 2? While we're at it, does it make much sense for the opposition to use Dasher levels? I suppose one protagonist turning on another happens fairly often, but is it worthy of its own special ability? How about the attacker makes a reflex save with a DC equal to the parry check to hit? Or we skip that and make the parry check equal to the attack roll? Or change the ability to simply offer a reflex save for every attack, with a +2 bonus from successful Flair check? We could even redefine Flair a bit to say it swaps STR with CHA and offers a +2 bonus to relevant rolls for the rest of the round.
I hope I'm not coming off as harsh or overly critical. By all means, the Dashing Swordsman is an awesome prestige class. I'm ecstatic to find fan support for it after the remarkable disappointment that was the Complete Scoundrel's prestige class section.
I just want to see this class more streamlined. It seems fairly well developed, so some of my more radical ideas would be a bit late to the party, but I wanted to voice my opinions on some of the troublesome areas. The changes I suggested would necessitate other changes elsewhere, so I don't know about implementation, but I suppose if I really disagree with this rendering of the Dashing Swordsman, (and I doubt it,) I could always get a real account and make my own "Dazzling Swordsman." Heh.
Anyway, I hope to see Dashing Swordsman on the front page before long, people! Get on this! Monkeychewtoy 04:11, 25 July 2008 (MDT)
- Please feel free to work on this class, I'd imagine that Sir Milo Teabag would rather see this on the Main Page then edited. --Green Dragon 11:59, 25 July 2008 (MDT)
- I think I can in good conscience make changes to the flair system. So that's what I'll do. --Monkeychewtoy 01:40, 26 July 2008 (MDT)
- Can't wait to see it. (Complete Scounrel was such a letdown)--Sir Milo Teabag 10:40, 30 July 2008 (MDT)
- I think I'm finding a snag or two here, however. The other class features require significantly higher flair checks to work, and so the system may need to be modified further. Also, the amount of synergy seems to have greatly dropped. The best thing (really the only good thing) about the old flair was that it formed a bridge between skills that normally saw little practical use and combat. Do you think we could create something like that with the new flair?--Sir Milo Teabag 13:52, 2 August 2008 (MDT)
- Have diminishing returns! Each time you use a flair, you get a -x to flair checks. Eventually an ability that adds +Y to flari checks becomes very handy. Have the counter reset each day (or each encounter if it diminishes rapidly). --Aarnott 19:31, 2 August 2008 (MDT)
This is me, telling you what I think. Dueling Parry is a little odd in its wording; it tells you you can ready a swift action, but then it goes on to say you can make the disarm/parry check in addition to your regular attack. Since readying an action is a standard action, and attacking is (at minimum) a standard action, perhaps you mean you take an immediate action. --Siosilvar 09:51, 5 August 2008 (MDT)
- Also, the Epic section should state something like "An epic Dashing Swordsman gets a bonus feat at 11th level and every 3 levels thereafter."--Siosilvar 09:54, 5 August 2008 (MDT)
First off, I really like this article. I like it's flow. It is interesting to read. The class seems fun. AND I am an OOTS fan. My only complaint is that Inigo Montoya is not Good aligned. Nor is there, I think, any evidence that anyone in the Princess Bride story is good aligned. I heart Princess Bride as well as OOTS, btw.
Power - <<<5>>>/5 I give this class a <<<5>>> out of 5 because <<<This class is great for role playing, as well as for character development. This class is powerful in its own right, giving you access to abilities that normal classes just cant do.>>> --Shadow Kurimeki 09:27, 29 September 2011 (MDT)
Wording - <<<4.5>>>/5 I give this class a <<<4.5>>> out of 5 because <<<This class was pretty well worded, the Hero's Health ability functions for when there wearing no armor as well. As this is a character ability not determined by his armor. There were a few others but overall good.>>> --Shadow Kurimeki 09:27, 29 September 2011 (MDT)
Formatting - <<<5>>>/5 I give this class a <<<5>>> out of 5 because <<<The format was really well done. I would consider adding a few more details, but other than that good job!>>> --Shadow Kurimeki 09:27, 29 September 2011 (MDT)
Flavor - <<<5>>>/5 I give this class a <<<5>> out of 5 because <<<This class is a great class, it has great role playing capabilities. I would consider having the player say something witty when making a flair check so add to the fun of it.>>> --Shadow Kurimeki 09:27, 29 September 2011 (MDT)
excellent! 4/5 stars
<!-- !!!REMOVE THIS FIRST LINE OF THIS PAGE BEFORE YOU SAVE!!! (i.e. the "nowiki" tag) --> == Rating == '''Power - <<<4>>>/5''' I give this class a <<<4>>> out of 5 because <<< It adds balanced elements that encourage more roleplaying in battle.>>> --~~~~ '''Wording - <<<4>>>/5''' I give this class a <<<4>>> out of 5 because <<<It uses a lot of refferences to well known characters who fit the role>>> --~~~~ '''[[Help:Standards and Formatting (DnD Guideline)|Formatting]] - <<<5>>>/5''' I give this class a <<<5>>> out of 5 because <<<Everything is well explained. Pictures could help though.>>> --~~~~ '''Flavor - <<<5>>>/5''' I give this class a <<<5>>> out of 5 because <<<It actually makes bards worthwhile in a fight and allows them to do so in a way that makes sense.>>> --~~~~ == excellent! 4/5 stars == <nowiki><!-- !!!REMOVE THIS FIRST LINE OF THIS PAGE BEFORE YOU SAVE!!! (i.e. the "nowiki" tag) --> == Rating == '''Power - <<<4>>>/5''' I give this class a <<<4>>> out of 5 because <<< It adds balanced elements that encourage more roleplaying in battle.>>> --~~~~ '''Wording - <<<4>>>/5''' I give this class a <<<4>>> out of 5 because <<<It uses a lot of refferences to well known characters who fit the role>>> --~~~~ '''[[Help:Standards and Formatting (DnD Guideline)|Formatting]] - <<<5>>>/5''' I give this class a <<<5>>> out of 5 because <<<Everything is well explained. Pictures could help though.>>> --~~~~ '''Flavor - <<<5>>>/5''' I give this class a <<<5>>> out of 5 because <<<It actually makes bards worthwhile in a fight and allows them to do so in a way that makes sense.>>> --~~~~