Talk:Chaos Mage (4e Class)

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Metalpharoah says, "I have updated the Battle Wizard to fit the simplicity of 4e out of the chaos and wreckage it originally had been. The original style suited 3.5e very nicely but I doubt the designer wanted it to be a 3.5 class since it had in fact been in the 4e homebrew category. To the creator: I hope you enjoy what I have done to your Battle Wizard making it go even further in the unique qualities it now possess."

So many dice[edit]

If I'm reading this right, the player has to roll an extra die at the beginning of his turn, and then roll more extra dice every time he uses a power. That's a lot of dice rolling. I can't say yet if it's balanced or not, but it does seem to go against the 4e philosophy. Surely there's a more elegant way? Wouldn't this be better as a build option or paragon class for Wizards, rather than a whole new class? Marasmusine 03:14, 26 January 2012 (MST)

Dice Explained[edit]

Metalpharoah: "The original creator allowed the Battle Wizard to be so much more complex than it is now I had to fix it up for 4e as it was terribly complicated and hard to understand for non-hardcore D&D players. 4e is all about being simplistic and easy, not complicated, nor about using tables. In the case of the Battle Wizard it does in fact use a table and I wanted to keep that little ability. Perhaps you are misunderstanding the basis for the Battle Wizard but I will shed some light on the situation. At the beginning of your turn you a roll a d6. That result gives you X amount of Casting Dice to use during that turn. Casting Dice are each 1D6. (Ex: You roll 4. For this round you can use 4d6 when using your powers). When you USE a power you roll your d6's and check the Casting Value on the power. Now compare that Casting Value you rolled with the Casting Rate table Class Feature. Follow what the table says and then if the power has extra specials you gain through meeting certain requirements you gain those as well. (Ex: Casting Value: 6+; 12+. If you roll a 13 you certainly meet the initial Casting Value of 6 so the power is certainly going to be met. Since you rolled 12+ then you gain the additional effect for meeting that Casting Value as well). I hope this helps you and if not ask me some more questions with the new design. I am still doing some finishing touches on the level 2 utility powers and then shortly will be making level 3-10. I have the Paragon Path and Epic Destines figured out."

Yes, so, the player has to roll a d6 every turn, and possibly multiple extra dice every time they use a power. 4e combat is already quite slow, I don't think this helps. However, if that's your core mechanic, I'm not going to suggest you change it (although, perhaps look to see how the Sorcerer's Chaos build handles this kind of wild magic.) A patient and understanding DM and party would be required.
I can help you balance the powers.
  • Searing Doom - at-will power should never cause ongoing damage, and certainly not on an Effect. "Twice the damage" - there's a reason why double damage isn't use as an intensifier anywhere in 4e. There are dozens of more interesting things you can do with this.
  • Melkoth's Mystifying Miasma - try using bullet points to list the effects. At level 1, this should be an attack power, not utility. If this is an attack power, it needs an attack roll. Have something nice happen on a hit in addition to the effect. I don't suggest messing with initiative. DMs don't like having to change combat ordering, especially if its a temporary effect.
  • Iceshard Blizzard - At-will powers shouldn't give penalties that last till the end of the encounter. This should be a daily.
  • Earth Blood - Again, if it lasts until the end of the encounter, it should be a daily power. If it's a utility power, it needs to be level 2.
  • Wyssan's Wildform - Utility power, so make level 2.
  • Firestorm - This is an attack, not a utility. So it also needs an attack roll.
  • Windshield - +10 to all defenses is overpowered. If it's daily then you can have a more lasting effect.
  • Psychic Shaper - I don't understand this one. The enemy substitutes their d20 roll for your d20 roll? So what's the point? Again, if you're actively targeting an enemy, this is an attack not a utility.
  • Aqshy's Vortex - Don't key things on a critical hit; players already get enough hurtage through their magic implement/weapon crits.
  • Chamon's Enchantment - Mechanically, weapons aren't defined as "metal" or "non-metal", so suggest dropping that distinction.
  • Hysh's Light - Specify "blinded until the end of your next turn." If you roll your casting dice when you use the power, then you've already selected a target. Increasing the range on a high casting dice roll, then, doesn't seem too helpful.
  • Ghyran's Renewal - An encounter power that heals all adjacent enemies by their surge value without using up a surge? And they get an attack? Not even Leader classes get healing this good. Way overpowered.
  • Piercing Breath - "Effect: If the target(s) is not killed with this attack they are slowed until the end of the encounter." - in other words "Effect: The target is slowed until the end of the encounter." - overpowered.
  • Orb of Nature's Strength - This miss effect is better than the hit effect.
  • Azyr's Gleam - add "until the end of your next turn" to the miss effect. Why not add slowed (save ends) to the hit?

In general, look at warlock or sorcerer powers of the same level to gauge how powerful they should be and to get ideas for interesting effects. Marasmusine 07:06, 31 January 2012 (MST)

Battle Wizard Class Name Change[edit]

Metalpharoah: January 26, 2012 "I have changed Battle Wizard to reflect what it now has become after much revision. All that remains now is to re-evaluate the level 1 At-Will and Encounter powers to make sure they are balanced. Afterwards, I will begin with level 3-10 before Paragon Paths. The name of the Battle Wizard has been changed to Chaos Mage! Paragon Paths vary depending on which Current of Mastery you chose. Concealing Pyromancer's gain the Paragon Path: Covert Alchemist. Celestial Seer's gain the Paragon Path: Seraphic Oracle. Both of these share the Epic Destiny Ethereal Herald."

Battle Wizard Update[edit]

After much consideration and balancing out the Chaos Mage I have completed all up to the 5th level powers. As I work on the Chaos Mage I hope everyone seems to enjoy the unique qualities this class can bring as something to have fun with and as a true option. The past few days have been exciting!

Banned for a Day[edit]

Sorry everyone I was banned for an entire day because some user named NMelgin or another used a proxy IP that matched my IP addy and was spamming external links or something of that context. I am back and ready to update the design of Chaos Mage!

Marasmusine YOUR ANSWER to those powers[edit]

I am changing the abilities right now and then addressing your thoughts.

  • Searing Doom: Consulting with professional DM's (I am a DM myself) and going through certain mechanics I created this attack to be a bit better than its ancestor. I had, in fact, not realized that I had it ongoing fire damage (save ends) as an effect and I meant for that to be the casting dice special effect since 20+ is rather challenging to roll.
  • Melkoth's Mystifying Miasma: This is a Utility for the purpose it serves as it is NOT an attack! Chaos Mage works a bit different than other classes (take all campaigns in advisement when reading this class). I added the bullets now that I know how, so that is very helpful. Other than that nothing else changed.
  • Iceshard Blizzard: Right you are! The penalty should have been until the end of the next turn.
  • Earth Blood: Level 1 Celestial Seer Utility Power (not for Concealing Pyromancer). Nothing changes.
  • Wyssan's Wildform: It is perfect as it is since both classes begin with this as their Daily Power for level 1.
  • Firestorm: Changed to be more accurate. I don't know why I kept typing "Target: one enemy" when it should have been "Target: one creature".
  • Windshield: Overpowered? All DM's and skilled players that have checked this believe it to be completely balanced.
  • Psychic Shaper: This is a Utility Power that pretty much says the Celestial Seer looks into the future and knows the outcome of a targets next Attack Roll or Skill Check.
  • Aqshy's Vortex: The Chaos Mage does not get much extra oomph early on so the critical is a nice combination for the Savaging Tempest feature.
  • Chamon's Enchantment: Weapons may not be defined as metal or have a metallic origin but for this ability it is unique and the DM might choose which items are made from such.
  • Hysh's Light: Completely right again, you have chosen your target and Ranged 20 would indeed be pretty useless. I have changed the casting roll result special effect to target is blinded (save ends).
  • Ghyran's Renewal: The healing has been reduced to your Int Mod with no additional effect for the attack itself.
  • Piercing Breath: The target (or targets) if not killed are now slowed with save ends.
  • Orb of Nature's Strength: The miss WAS better than the hit, how did I let that by me!? I changed the attack to be natural miss: half damage. I added to the hit, "and the targets give combat advantage until the end of your next turn." The Casting roll special effect changed and is now radiant instead of cold.
  • Azyr's Gleam: I took your advice for both adds because I do believe you were right about both.

Level 6 is now up as well and completed! Level 7, 9, and 10 will be shortly during the coming week finishing up the Pre-Paragon Path Chaos Mage (including the design for Seraphic Oracle). Once Level 13 At-Will Disciplines are added the powers will be obviously divided between two for Covert Alchemist and 2 for Seraphic Oracle.

Lets Review Level 2 Utility's[edit]

On the subject of Windshield, let's compare the power with other similar level 2 utilities. Just looking at the leader roles (the classes expected to have the best defense-granting powers), we have:
  • Cleric - Armor of Faith. This grants a +5 bonus to one defense for one ally. This is until the end of the encounter, because it is daily.
  • Windshield doesn't last that long for a daily power, it lasts until the end of the next turn in which grants it a +5 powerup.
  • Cleric - Sanctuary, +5 bonus to all defenses for one ally. This is for one turn, because it is an encounter power.
  • An encounter power while Windshield is a daily power and it also lasts for one turn.
  • Cleric - Shield of Faith, +2 AC for multiple allies until the end of the encounter (daily)
  • Windshield only works for multiple allies if you actually roll a miracle and even then it is not until the end of the encounter.
  • Bard - Canon of Avoidance, +2 bonus to all defenses for one ally, which can be sustained (daily)
  • Again, Windshield cannot be sustained nor does it last for more than a turn.
  • Runepriest - Rune of the Final Effort, +5 bonus to all defenses for one bloodied adjacent ally for one turn (encounter)
  • An encounter power that is weaker than Windshield (since that is a DAILY).
Strikers get powers that might grant themselves a +1 or +2 bonus to defenses, such as the sorcerer's Dragonflame Mantle or the Warlock's Charm of Hearts. Marasmusine 15:35, 1 February 2012 (MST)
  • Originally the creator when he made this class had in the actual role: Leader/Striker/Controller. I took out the Leader and Controller since it appeared to me to be more of a Striker. There are 2 Currents of Mastery that I am unsure if you have taken a look at. Can you demarcate between a Chaos Mage with the Concealing Pyromancer mastery and one with the Celestial Seer mastery?
Windshield may seem to you to be broken, or underpowered since it only lasts until the end of the next turn, but for a Chaos Mage using the wind as a shield to block attacks is not uncommon or unheard of. Those powers are either an encounter which lasts until the next turn for minimal conditions (such as for one or two defenses or abilities) or they are daily powers that last until the end of the encounter mostly focusing on all defenses. This is a Daily Power that lasts until the end of the next turn by giving an ally or you +10 to all defenses since the wind is very powerful. Giving all allies defense +10? That is if you actually roll for your Casting Dice amount 1d5 at the start of your turn and with those 5 roll all 6's which is a near improbable possibility. How many times do you obtain Yahtzee during a single game? Most don't even roll a single Yahtzee their entire lifetime of playing one game per day.
If I'm reading it right, you get d6 casting dice per turn, so on average that's 3 or 4 d6. The average 3d6 roll is 10 , which is the casting value of Windshield. Is it supposed to be nearly impossible to cast? Then why would anyone waste a standard action on it, presumably at a time when they need to protect themselves? (The Total Defense action is a better option, at least that's a guaranteed +2) If it's a daily it needs a lasting effect - that's their point. Marasmusine 02:59, 2 February 2012 (MST)
No no, its Special Effect Casting Value 30+ is nearly impossible. "If you cast this power on a 30+ target all allies (including yourself) in the burst." While 10 is the average casting value, 20 and 30 is not which target multiple allies.
So that doesn't explain the base +10 bonus; twice the power of a similar Leader utility and five times the power of a similar Striker utility. Marasmusine 06:22, 2 February 2012 (MST)
From what I was understanding of your observations I thought you were comparing encounter powers that last for one turn that are weaker and hit multiple targets right away or daily powers which are less powered but last until the end of the encounter. This does neither last for more than a turn nor hit multiple targets unless your roll is very high. Have I been mistaking you? If so I would say that it is more powered but it only lasts one turn and is a daily. I did change the power though to reflect what I believe is to be more necessary. A Chaos Mage does not have extreme mastery over the winds so +10 should be at the epic destiny level.
Sorry, I'll clarify. These are three separate issues. 1) The bonus granted was too high; 2) Daily utility powers always provide a guaranteed benefit for an extended period (end of the encounter, or through a sustain, etc; there are exceptions that aren't relevant here); 3) Granting bonuses to an ally falls outside a striker's role.
Each of these needs balancing individually.
As well as using other arcane striker classes to gauge your power levels, I think you may also be interested in how the psionic classes work. They don't have encounter powers, but can augment their at-wills up to about the equivalent. You can use these to gauge how powerful your at-wills can become with your casting dice. There's no equivalent for encounters or dailies though. Marasmusine 13:44, 2 February 2012 (MST)
Chaos Mage is not Arcane nor is he Psionic, it is in fact a new Power Source known as Elemental (due to the control of the winds of element).
In addition to the fact I did feel I neglected to thank you for your revisions and help Marasmusine. I thank you very much as I have found your advice helpful. With me leaving out one important detail allow me to explain. Think of Windshield granting allies bonuses as they are in the way of the wind which is why they have a bonus as such not because of the Striker doing it but the wind itself since the Winds of Ghyran are included during the windshield.

Pre-Paragon Completed[edit]

I just wanted everyone to know that all powers up to level 10 are now completed. I am looking forward to the feedback I read, especially from Marasmusine. I hope we can fix any problems you might see there to be or come up with ideas you would like to see during the Paragon Path era powers.

Some brand new changes after a few DM's looked at the Chaos Mage. Not only does it gain the class feature "Elemental Flow" following that of a Psion with At-Wills but encounter attacks already made become daily powers and the psionic at-will levels become the Chaos Mage's At-Will levels. In addition, the Chaotic keyword has been created (much like Monk with its Full Discipline keyword) to represent a power that needs you to roll Casting Dice.

During the week I shall be fixing all encounters to daily's and changing what should be changed. Encounter Utility's still stay.

  • Level 1 Concealing Pyromancer & Celestial Seer is now complete! You can start making your level 1 Chaos Mage's :P Level 2 is also completed! Level 3 seems to be done and examining level 5 (playtesting)

NEW CORRECTIONS & UPDATES[edit]

THIS GOES OUT TO WHOM POSTED ON MY CHAOS MAGE THAT IRRESISTABLE FORCE IS BROKETASTIC:

I updated the Casting Rate features table. Double or higher Utility has changed for the enemy target "-2 penalty on all defenses until the end of your next turn". For you or the ally target it has become "the target gains 5 temporary hit points".

Casting Rate Table #2: Lower than Casting Value Utility Power- If the enemy is the target, instead of them gaining HP as if they spent a surge [which was also unknown] it has combat advantage against you until the end of your next turn. If you or an ally is the target (instead of penalty to your defenses equal to Int Mod), the target gets a -2 penalty to all damage rolls until the start of your next turn.

Savage Tempest was updated with an Irresistable Force Utility: "An Irresistable Force Utility Power allows the target, if it is you or an ally, to gain hit points equal to your Intelligence modifier as if the target had spent a healing surge. If the target is an enemy they get a 1d4 penalty to all of their defenses until the end of your next turn." I changed the use of gaining HP equal to the targets surge value into gaining HP equal to your Int Mod (so instead of 10+ it would be 3-10).

Irresistable Force Casting Dice tested: 50 turns using real dice in person. That would be using 50 /powers/. Now in real life when playing you would NOT be using an attack every single turn, some you may even give up your standard attack for something else or use a utility but you would not attack 50 turns in a row normally. Let's say you did use an attack 50 turns in a row. The results are far from "broketastic". Out of 50 turns rolling for Wind Dancer feature, and then rolling the result for an Attack Power, THREE TIMES WERE IRRESISTABLE FORCES!!! THREEEEE TUUUUUURNS!!! Not what you were saying in your little make-believe land of rainbows and kitty lala's, those are 3 automatical critical hits out of 50 times using an attack. I can give you ALL the results, including many MANY fails, if you really want to view them. I don't care about your paper-look-good-statistics for I am speaking about the real world dice we use.

Fireball: Name and flavour text change: Fireball Barrage and "The wizard conjures flaming missiles"


I would like to make a few statements. First off, this class is still being developed and I wanted to give myself some time to playtest in a real campaign quite a few features, and I have. I was coming back to change the way the table works, Irresistable Force and quite a few powers. It is not entirely completed and I know that, for now that is the way it has to be. I took over someones unique idea and made it my own with a lot of newer twists (especially since everything there is nearly all my own now). I just want you to know that I realize it is not completed and I will be working on this for maybe another year or so to perfect while I add new powers, change older ones, and fix it for 4e.

As of right now, a friend of mine whom actually works with wizards and advising with editions, rules, etc has looked over the Chaos Mage. He told me the premise is very interesting, not entirely 4e, but interesting none the less. He told me that the features for the Currents of Mastery are great and need no change. He had told me that some powers do need some work though, and I am doing that.

I appreciate that it's not completed, that's why I'm leaving feedback as I notice things that need improving. I agree that the premise is interesting. "Broketastic" was an exaggeration, sorry. However, I'm troubled that you don't care about the maths involved. Maybe I'm reading the description incorrectly, though. Am I reading the following right?:
" At the beginning of each of your turns roll 1d6. The result is the number of Casting Dice you have for that round.
and:
"Whenever you use a power with a Casting Value you must roll at least 1d6 up to a maximum of the number of Casting Dice you are allowed for that round."
means before I make an attack roll with a battle wizard power, I roll between 1 and 36 six-sided dice. Is that right? If so, then your 3 crits out of 50 attacks were under-par. On average, this method gives you an equivalent of 19-20 crit range in addition to your normal 1-in-20 chance of a crit.
Maybe it needs to be reworded in that context but yes, you are reading it wrong. I should clarify with the wording more properly. Your turn begins and so, you roll a 1d6. The result is the number of d6's you have for your Casting Dice. So let's say I roll a 3 (after testing, that was the most common next to 1). For the remainder of the round I roll 3d6 when I am using any of my powers which have a Casting Value. Also, it is no longer the Battle Wizard which is what the original creator named it. I have renamed the class Chaos Mage as it represents a Mage more than a Battle Wizard. Although, nearly everything is different than what the creator had on here. The only thing truly remaining of the original creator is the name (for I have no idea how to put this into a category of its own or rename Battle Wizard to Chaos Mage), the Chaos Mage Overview paragraph with the characteristics etc, and the little paragraph under the Class Traits. I pretty much changed everything.
As for the healing ability, why not make this temporary hit points instead? (and don't forget to remove "as if the target had spent a healing surge" now that you've made the value equal to Int modifier).
Thanks, I'll make sure to update that part. As I've said, it is a work in progress and I did leave a few things undone here and there for wording. I'll make sure to update. The reason for not making them temp HP has to do with the Casting Rate Table which can give 5 temp HP and I wanted, since an Irresistible Force is very rare, to be a little better.
Using real-world die rolls, how many automatic hits do you get out of 50 attacks? Marasmusine (talk) 01:58, 13 September 2012 (MDT)
Using real world dice for 50 attack powers there were 3 Irresistible Force's. Two had two natural 6 show up and only one out of 50 had 3. There were none higher than that.
Also, I had changed quite a few things today and yesterday. I reworded the way Exorcism and Kindleflame features work. I added new multiclassing feats. I hope I reworded the Casting Rate feature properly to get rid of confusion, I updated powers and what they do, changed to 3 powers per level option, updated for higher levels etc.
In addition, I would like to make one clarification. Let's say that I use Fireball Barrage, then I must roll my Casting Dice (Wind Dancer this turn gave me a 3 so I roll 3d6). I rolled a 2, 3, 5 so that is 10. I go to the Casting Rate table and it says since my power is equal to the casting value I treat it as normal. Now I will Roll for my attack roll for Fireball Barrage. You make the roll for the Casting Rate and then you roll your Attack Roll normally. It's not rolling your Casting Dice and hoping to get a certain number for the power to work, it is just how much power you have over the winds of magic and how they affect you. Let's say you rolled a 3 for your Casting Value for Fireball Barrage. You look at the table and since it is lower than the casting value you get a -5 penalty to the attack roll for the power. Now roll for your attack roll, with that -5 penalty. That is how it works. I think you became confused how it works along the way. What about the Casting Rate's new wording, does it work for you? Whenever you use a power with a Casting Value you must roll the casting dice you are allowed for that round.
On a side note, I am going back right now and changing what the original creator had written. I think, a complete overhaul update is in order, and quite a bit is either misspelled or makes no sense.

Total Re-haul[edit]

The total changes are listed here for September 13, 2012:

The HP at level 1 went from 11 + Constitution score to 12 + Constitution score.

HP gained per level from 4 to 5.

Trained Skills gained Heal [for use with Celestial Seer] and lost Intimidate.

Paragraph under Class Traits changed for my new vision [wiping out what the original creator had].

Chaos Mage Overview rewritten to fit my new vision [wiping out what the original creator had].

Wind Dancer text changed from At the beginning of your turn roll 1d6 to At the beginning of each round roll 1d6.

Casting Rate text changed to Whenever you use a power with a Casting Value you must roll the casting dice you are allowed for that round. Your result is applied to the table below:

Quite a bit of unnecessary capitalization [due to the original creator] has been taken care of, along with correcting all misspellings.

Savage Tempest no longer states for a Utility Power as if they had spent a healing surge.

Kindleflame and Exorcism have been reworded, and their power enhancements at certain levels less wordy, for clarification.

Cut all power options per level from four to three and placed the cut powers into later levels [also adjusting those powers for the level].

Level 15 Solstice Blizzard had been created finishing off level 15's powers.

New Chaos Mage Multiclassing Feats have been added.

Various powers adjusted to prevent under/over powering.

Aerial Shadow of Metallic Dragon now says stunned (save ends) rather than poisoned (save ends) to match with the attack.

Seraphic Oracle template has been added waiting for future updates.

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