Talk:Alchemist (3.5e Class)
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2/18/2008 - Got annoyed that no one actually put any effort into this class after the first day, so I fixed it. Skill list, skills per level, feats, and over all progression has been fixed. Now if only we can make a new system for how many concoctions one can make in a day. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 126.96.36.199 (talk • contribs) 01:08, 19 February, 2008 (UTC). Please sign your posts!
- 1 Needs Artificer Prestige option
- 2 Slightly overpowered
- 3 Marked for Deletion?! :O
- 4 Apologies to Sakurasboy for taking the page over, and more issues
- 5 Rating
- 6 Comment
- 7 Class Edits
- 8 Infinite Wealth
- 9 I think this is an excellent Foundation
- 10 Alchemist goals
- 11 More Information needed for Rubedo
- 12 not sure what your trying to do but i may have some ideas for you
- 13 Alchemist
- 14 Rating
- 15 Any current owner?
- 16 Rating
Needs Artificer Prestige option
Alchemy fits the mechanistic nature of Artificers far better than wizards and Sorcerers do. There should be an Alchemist Artificer Prestige class (Subtract wand making and substitute Boom-tube gun manufacture (They can make Gunpowder, why not a primitive gun with potion-delivering projectiles?)
The ability to create arcane spells through potions is fair, but as it stands, they can play a fairly decent arcane caster, while maintaining a complete repertoire of alchemist class powers. The overpoweredness is actually greatest at first level, where they can easily prepare a couple of level 1 arcane spells and still have a vast array of other effects under their belt. Add to this the fact that a couple of days downtime grants them near omnipotence, having 20-odd potions ready to use. Perhaps reducing the number of spell effects that they can recreate by one per day would be enough.
Marked for Deletion?! :O
I can't allow this to be deleted! I promised a friend of mine that I would make this class. If no one is willing to finish what this person started, I will gladly take over the task. The only help I will need is in putting it into a proper template; I don't know what's required for a base class, having made only a single prestige class so far. Plus, it will probably need grammar and spelling revisions - I type fast, and sometimes don't go back to check my work. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Cerin616 (talk • contribs) 03:47, 9 January, 2008 (UTC). Please sign your posts!
- If you're willing to fill in the basic details of the class, like features gained at each level, saves, BAB, and spells (if applicable), I'm sure people here (myself included) are willing to help format and edit your class. Don't wait too long, though. -- Cronocke 22:55, 8 January 2008 (MST)
- You have my hand. I'd edit it now but I don't know which direction you're going with it. Off hand seems like a poor BAB class with high crafting abilities, poor Fort and Reflex, good Will, skills everywhere, and something rather kickass to make up for the rather commoner-riffic basic stats. -- Eiji 23:03, 8 January 2008 (MST)
Apologies to Sakurasboy for taking the page over, and more issues
Another tough part is coming up with a system of making potions etc... I dont want it quite as limited as spells, but the whole powerpoint thing is weak too... If you guys have any suggestions, im willing to listen Plus im going in a kind of direction where by himself the alchemist is finished in a battle, but he is more of a buffer class with his potion making skills. He can make some protective things, but not enough to be a power class. ill get back to editing it soon. -- Cerin616 5:53, 9 January 2008 (EST)
- I am finished editing for now, i may come back on in a little, but most of the important info is there. -- Cerin616 7:58, 9 January 2008 (EST)
- Interesting. I have some difficultly understanding it all but that is probably because the powers/quasi-spells are unfinished. One thing I DID see that interested me greatly, though, was the idea of turning steel to the properties of mythril. I like that, a lot, and promote the idea of an alchemist being able to alter your weapon properties, either on the fly (something like Silversheen but for adamantium, mithril, darkwood, fruitcake, etc), and more permanent crafts which can use the current systems contained in the Craft skill and anything else appropriate (perhaps Craft Magic Arms & Armor, in spite of it not being a spellcasting class, to where they have access to the feat to perform certain scientific enchantments of typically magical abilities? I dunno.
- Anyway, I'll at least try to think of a nifty capstone for you. For the way of doing things, maybe X/potions can be created a day would work, and refresh when you sleep? Almost spellcasting, but I'm thinking more sorcerer than wizard, doing it on the fly. -- Eiji 18:40, 9 January 2008 (MST)
- What you said about the magic in weapons, that was one part i didnt elaborate on yet. In alchemical alteration lvl 9 the alchemist gains the ability to meld amulets, rings, etc into the actual weapon itself (im thinking of a limit of how many magical items he can blend in). The weapon would then gain the properties of the magic item.
- I was also going to put in the epic alchemist facts that at lvl 25 the alchemist can turn steel into mithral entirely, giving it every component of the metal, and at level 30 mithral to adamantium. Also what you said about the silversheen, that is almost exactly what "plateing" is doing. Its like having a silver plated steel sword, only silversheen is only limited to silver, while plateing can plate it with any metal (i.e. adamantium or mithral to make it slightly stronger, silver to affect lycanthrops, etc.) I like your idea of the x/potions a day though, ill try and elaborate off of that. Im hitting the bed now, so i will work more tomarrow -- Cerin616 22:22, 9 January 2008 (EST)
- Please indent your comments (use this : symbol) and try not to turn topic titles into paragraphs. As for your plating idea, it seems interesting, although mithral, you should note, would not make a weapon stronger. The only thing it does is make a weapon lighter in weight (but not in category), and a plating of mithral would be too minor to have a noteworthy effect. -- Cronocke 06:26, 10 January 2008 (MST)
- plated with mithral, a steel weapon would increase form a hardness of 10 to 13, but the weight difference would have no effect, seeing as your adding metal..., so thats a good point, unless that +3 to DC was really that important...
- And sorry about the topic title thing, i just wanted it in there, lol. Cerin616 12:17, 10 January 2008 (EST)
- It's ok that you took it over. I was having a hard time coming up with ideas for it. All in all though. I think from now on I might stick to making races. I'll throw a race together for the alchemist class now. Probably a gnome variation or something. Anyways I'm kinda glad you took over. I was also having a hard time finding time to do it. At least I helped in a small way to save the alchemist idea from deletion. Thanks man. Sakurasboy 1:14, 05 February 2008
Formatting - 4/5: I give this a 4/5 on formatting because it has no links, does not use Template:Quote with the first quote, and uses x instead of × (×). --Green Dragon 13:46, 21 February 2008 (MST)
- Editing this up to add in some links and such --Cerin616, Drew 22:10, 6 October 2008 (MDT)
- I have removed my rating and I hope to see this class continue to improve! --Green Dragon 10:39, 7 October 2008 (MDT)
I strongly oppose the deletion of the Alchemist this class is perfectly playable. All because it isn't a combat class doesn't mean it should be deleted. Also this class is actually being used in one of my campains and works out perfectly sure he's not on the front lines but he is a very useful tactical member of their squad. If worse comes to worse i will adopt the class, even though it is playable and operational as is. --D.M.DemonicPanda 20:48 April 2, 2009 (EST)
- Feel free to adopt the class. I agree, just because a cast isn't that good at combat doesn't mean that they can't be useful. --Sabre070 18:59, 2 April 2009 (MDT)
- Did you read the candidate for deletion message? I didn't propose it because it's not a combat class. I proposed it because there's not enough damn information in the page for someone who doesn't know what's going on to use it. Surgo 20:37, 2 April 2009 (MDT)
- Sorry... But what do you think now better? --D.M.DemonicPanda 07:43, 3 April 2009 (EST)
I'm adding the Brew Alchemical Potion (DnD Feat) to this class as by popular demand however it is currently only in its preliminary stages. This acts to immitate some of the spells people have grown to love. Plz don't smite me!!! --D.M.DemonicPanda 20:04, 3 April 2009 (EST)
- Alchemical Potions: This ability grants the Alchemist the Brew Alchemical Potion feat that immitates spells of other classes. However brewing these potions use Alchemy points and ingredients that are consumed in making the potions.
- Added Oxidation Transmutation to make this class more useful in combat. --D.M.DemonicPanda 23:24, 8 April 2009
- Added the Ability to create Melt Powder and Razor Ice Powder from Frostburn as well as Chalk. --D.M.DemonicPanda 18:55, 9 April 2009
- Added the the ability to create Liquid Night, Brittlebone, Embalming Fire and Ghost Oil from Libris Morris. --D.M.DemonicPanda 19:15, 9 April 2009
- Added the ability to create Blood Thickener and the Portable Pyre form Dragon Magazine 324. DemonicPanda 17:14, 22 April 2009
- Added the ability to create a Minor Elixer of Life to help you outlive your allys and win all the loot. Demonic Panda 22:22, 19 May 2009
- Added the Deoxidation Transmutation to balance out the Oxidation transmutation in the spirit of the true alchemist in that all must be in balance. Also if you've read the book don't go see Angels and Demons. Demonic Panda 20:01, 24 May 2009
- Added the Gold to Lead Transmutation counteracting the acts of the Lead to Gold transmutation. Demonic Panda
- Added the Ability to create Insect Repellent. Demonic Panda
- Added the ability to create Ironbane Acid, Stonebreaker Acid, and Woodripper Acid from Dragon Magazine 359.
- Added the ability Rubedo that can fuse spirits to objects to make the animate and Fermentation. Demonic Panda
- Discussion moved from User talk:Mister Sinister#Alchemist
My Alchemist class may be able to create infinite wealth however this process would take an extremly long time can only have alchemy points equal to his alchemist level(Minimum 10) + modifier (On average +3/4) + Craft(Alchemy) rank (usually max around 40). Each 5lb conversion costing two of these points. Thus creating a fairly balanced ability however I understand your concern. --D.M.DemonicPanda 16:46, 7 April 2009 (MDT)
- Balanced Now? (Only Refering to the monitary aspect) --D.M.DemonicPanda 18:46, 9 April 2009
I think this is an excellent Foundation
I will be honest here I am new to editing wiki sites so I am trying not to mess anything up. However can we not site the information if we are drawing it from a certain text.
Also the Secret of alchemy is great I love that but what are the controlling factors for Nigredo, not sure who added those but I am having trouble finding reference material on the power as it is listed here. --Siamko 07:19, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
The Alchemist actually has three goals
1.) They believed that some elements could be changed into others. They attempted to change base metals (lead, tin) into valuable ones like gold.
2.) They believed they could find a substance that would give them eternal life
3.) They beleieved they could produce a universal solvent that would desolve all substances (wich really would never work, what the heck would you store it in?)
You only cover two of the three goals of the alchemists in this class. I am just pointing this out in case you didn't already realize your missing something. :)--Vrail 00:25, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
More Information needed for Rubedo
It says that the subject retains all abilities they had previously, but that doesn't seem appropriate. For example, if applied to a suit of armor, it would make sense that they wouldn't breathe, and they would be subject to rusting. If applied to a wooden Mannequin they would be vulnerable to rotting if wet, and fire if dry. It's also not established if/how the cure spells would work for subjects whose bodies are made of strange materials since it's not quite clear if they're a living creature. Does the subject of a Rubedo become a Construct? Am I to understand that you can use Rubedo to bind loose spirits whether they're willing or not? It doesn't mention anything about what abilities the subject retains if their new body is not the same shape as their old one. It also doesn't mention how to handle size changes. i.e. if, hypothetically, outsiders had spirits, if a Titan were brought back in a human sized suit of armor, would their Oversized weapon ability still allow them to use a gargantuan warhammer, or just a warhammer one size category above their current one?Ziv 12:49, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
- Working on balancing this issue currently. Thanks for the input.--Cerin616, Drew (talk) 10:09, 7 June 2013 (MDT)
- It's actually implied that Overized Weapon only allows the use of a single level higher than yourself, as it is available as a bloodline as part of a +3 level adjustment. 
not sure what your trying to do but i may have some ideas for you
well first off the whole alchemist thing has been thought of. second if you are going for full metal alchemist then you may want to try watching the shows or reading the manga or looking it up on Google. now that i got that out of the way. ALCHEMISTS DON'T JUST TURN THINGS INTO GOLD!!! alchemists believe in the law of equivalent exchange. meaning to gain something, something of equal value must be lost. this of course is assuming that you use the normal transmutation method. if you happen to make/find a philosophers stone on the other hand you can make things out of thin air without having to waste a lot of energy. im not sure how alchemy came into being but basicly they can make anything from anything. they can change molicules in the air to make them more flamable they can also take the metal out of the ground and transmute it into gold for thier journey. basic alchemy is a 3 step phase 1st is the recognition of the material that you are transmuting 2nd is the act of breaking down that element into its base molicules and 3rd is the reconstruction of those elements into something new... again if this isnt what you are trying to do then sorry i saw alchemist and i saw transmute. but anyways. to transmute you have to have the correct circle for the transmutation. you also have to have the required energy to do it. most alchemists are part of the military but there are some that are scientists or renegades so they can basicly be of any race, gender, or alighnmen and they also can serve almost any god. all you have to do is find out how to do the transmutations and not make them overpowered and you can make a really good class
- I'm not even the author, but I think you watch too much anime. Real alchemy is not based on Full-metal alchemist; It's vice versa, and hardly, even, since Full-metal alchemist adds all kinds of fantasy elements to it. Pro-tip: Alchemy is pretty much chemistry, although people used to think you could do all of the crazy things like turning lead into gold with it. For being a potion making and spell class, it's fitting. Jwguy 10:33, 23 July 2011 (MDT)
Power - 3/5 I give this class a 3 out of 5 because the Alchemist described here is played like a support role; at least when compared to the average kick-in-the-door barbarian. The Alchemist can be a great asset to your team improving everyone's armor and weapon rolls, as well as contribute to crazy roleplay feats that other classes would have deemed impossible (They turned that evil Mind Flayer into a good guy!) The in battle power tends to seem a little lacking, especially when the alchemist is at her lower levels: Their battle prowess with martial weapons would be comparable to a wizard or sorcerer. Later on in the campaign when the character has leveled a significant amount the alchemist is able to contribute a bit more. For example there is a spell at level 20 that, if chosen, will pretty much reduce ANY thing into a pile of black ash. The power doesn't need to be adjusted however because the alchemist has no need for a zanbato. They would prefer to keep to themselves and keep studying their books. --188.8.131.52 23:12, 15 February 2013 (MST)
Wording - 4/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 because this class if easy to use and understand minus the fact that Alchemist points may be a hard concept for people running off of super basic "Roll the D20 and roleplay" methods. --184.108.40.206 23:12, 15 February 2013 (MST)
Formatting - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because any DM or player could easily integrate this class into their game right now. The format doesn't need any changing besides the personal preference of the DM --220.127.116.11 23:12, 15 February 2013 (MST)
Flavor - 4/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 because the character is down to earth and a breath of fresh air when compared to some of the more garish and outlandish classes and races you see. I am insisting that all of my PCs at least give this class a look. I would like to see some sort of greater transformation at level 20 or mayhaps more development into epic level characters. Also there was a bit of a disappointment when I couldn't find any actual info about the Philosophers Stone, even though it was mentioned. I suppose that just leaves room for the DM to be creative though. This class is my current favorite and I will be applying this to my next campaign that is about to start --18.104.22.168 23:12, 15 February 2013 (MST)
Any current owner?
I really like the direction this class is going, and am playing it(Albeit with the pathfinder Alchemist's spellcasting), in a current game. A lot of things need clarification and cleanup, though, and I would like to know if anyone currently has claim to this page. If not, I'd love to take ownership of it and clean it up a bit. --Atlas (talk) 17:34, 1 June 2013 (MDT)
Lets see if I can remember how to wiki stuff. So, I don't know who would technically be the owner. Although everyone in the talk page get a lot of credit for the tweaking and balancing that went into this page. If you want to make some changes, feel free. I am going to make a backup of the class. The fact that you are playing means you might be able to give some insight others cannot.--Cerin616, Drew (talk) 08:07, 7 June 2013 (MDT)
Thanks. Here's my thoughts so far.
Damn, you just made most of the changes I was thinking about. In practice, the older system here that was being used for spell potions was almost unusable, so I've been using the pathfinder alchemist "spellcasting" progression, with everything else from this page. With spell-casting taking up Alchemy Points as before, I had to use the adjusted pathfinder spell levels to do anything even remotely worthwhile during the day, as almost all of my damage has come from Base Acid and Greater Acid. As long as we restrict the spell-potions to "Self", "Touch" and "Ray"(With touch and ray only working as splash potions) spells only, it wouldn't hurt to allow access to all Wizard Spells and Cure/Inflict cleric spells. We'd need to have the equivalent of a Spellbook and spells known, but as spell potions would have to be prepared anyways, this doesn't seem like a bad idea.
0'th level spells would be Disrupt Undead, Ray of Frost, Light, Resistance, Cure Minor Wounds and Inflict Minor Wounds. 1'st level spells would be Endure Elements, Protection from *, Shield, Mage Armor, Comprehend Languages, Identify(Lol. Strange for a potion, doesn't clash with class, though.), True Strike, Shocking Grasp, Disguise Self, Magic Aura, Chill Touch, Ray of Enfeeblement, Expeditious Retreat, Jump, Magic Weapon, Cure Light Wounds and Inflict Light Wounds.
I would like to clarify the familiar ability, as Ell's Handy Homunculus is a toy at best with it's current wording, but if given regular Sorcerer/Wizard familiar abilities, and a progression based off of buying extra HD via Alchemy Points, I think it would be entirely worth using. What I would like to do now, is to allow the leftover Alchemy Points to be added to a pool(At the rate of 1/2, as you have it.), where the alchemist would need a pool of 100 alchemy points and a days channeling/infusing to create the familiar. And they can spend 50 points from the pool to add a HD, up to their class level maximum, to the homunculus.
I'd also like to point out that the alchemist gains the ability to use alchemy circles to perform tasks, once they hit level 10, and only some of his abilities after this point use the chalk. I'd like to mix a few smaller non-combat flavor abilities earlier in the progression that use this, specifically creation as of Prestidigitation at level 1, Wood Shape at level 4, Stone Shape at level 8, using 1/10'th of a piece of chalk and an alchemy circle.
For my last thought, the Secret of Alchemy options are all amazing, but need some wording updates. Rubedo, my favorite, is less than vague, and I'd like to update it to use the Living Construct template, being a being of free will and a soul, in a construct style body.
I'd be willing to type up all of these changes myself, especially since you did most of the formatting work, but I'd like your opinion first, since you've done most of the work for the class so far. Atlas (talk) 13:13, 9 June 2013 (MDT)
Been a busy time at work, I like it though. I thought the capstone needed some work, although (I believe) Eiji did a decent job coming up with something interesting for it. The wording is a bit strange. The only other thing I can think of is that we make sure the method of creating an alchemist circle is constant. I noticed that the wording for it is strange, and there are a bunch of rules that aren't very concise. Last thing I want is a Monk mechanic where the rules for it are scattered all throughout a book, and it never gives clear answers on what is what.--Cerin616, Drew (talk) 09:28, 25 June 2013 (MDT)
Yeah, I went through and everything that uses a transmutation circle but the Familiar and the capstones use the same wording and time investment in the circle. I added Simple Transmutation, Transmute Wood, and Transmute Stone in order to make the transmutation circle a part of the class, and not something he randomly gains once reaching level 10. I'd like to add in a Transmute Metal(http://dndtools.eu/spells/races-of-faerun--23/shape-metal--3067/) skill as part of this progression, but it probably would have to go in somewhere level 15'ish for balance, so I'll have to fiddle with that later.
And for those capstones, I'd like to set up so that anyone who plays this class will find them all equally appealing. I don't want a healing focused alchemist to ignore Albedo because it sucks, and the same with the other discoveries. You're locked into one of the 6 options, so each one needs to be usable in enough situations that someone would spend the rest of their characters life preparing that potion.
I'm working on making sure everything has similar preparing rules, and the alchemy point drain for holding them just felt completely wrong and counter-intuitive. So far I've cleaned up Albedo and Rubedo, with Albedo being comfortably balanced. There is a spell that already exist that does the alignment shift better, but it requires a diamond worth 10k gold and a full year, so it doesn't seem like something that can be easily converted into a skill.
My thoughts, mostly, on who would use each of the secrets. Some of them are already perfect for characters in these rolls, but all need a bit of tweaking.
- Albedo: Healing, non-combat focused alchemists.
- Might need to add HP and limb regeneration effects to make it worth grabbing.
- Citrinas: Melee combatant focused alchemists.
- Needs to be usable, right now takes too long for too little return.
- Elixer of Life: Anti-Undead, immortality focused alchemists.
- Formatting, mostly, but takes too long to be useful, otherwise works fine.
- Nigredo: Ranged combatant focused alchemists.
- Seems to be less save or die and just Die.
- Rubedo: Research, immortality focused alchemists.
- Take a dying ally, give them a body. Build yourself an immortal research body. Catch a ghost, turn it into a little servant by giving it a harmless body.
- Universal Solvent: Skillmonkey style alchemists.
- Just save or die. Probably needs more utility. Idea: Command-able jelly in a bottle?
- Albedo: Healing, non-combat focused alchemists.
The big problem I see right now is the "Transmutation Combination" ability at level 19. There are rules in the Magic Item Compendium to combine magic items on creation, so the combined items are normal enough, but I don't really know how to balance things without losing touch with game mechanics. As of right now, the ability is sort of more expensive than crafting directly up to the double object in terms of gold, but without the XP expenditure. I'd sort of like to replace this skill with something else, but I draw a blank.
Flavor wise, the main change I made to the class was make it so the alchemist realizes that his abilities are magic based, and that he focuses on magic as a science. He should be a bard equivalent character in the party, with that additional item support instead of being an additional alt-melee character. Most of his skills, if allowed to use on allies will be less powerful overall than having an equivalent level of bardic music, but will be more useful in specific situations.
At any rate, the class needed a ton of formatting work, so with both of our edits, it is a whole lot easier to read than it was two months ago. Looking forward to more ideas. Atlas (talk) 15:17, 27 June 2013 (MDT)
I like where you are going with this. So what if the capstone had a greater power and a lesser power. At level 20, any alchemist can use the lesser power, and only an alchemist who specializes in the greater power can use it. this specialization can change after a week of devoted study yadda yadda. I was trying to do some edits to the capstone to make it a bit more balanced, just because a bunch of it looked wildly confusing and powerful, such as the "I cant be hurt by anything" potion. Who wouldn't take con damage for full immunities? Ill do some thinking in my spare time, but between work, dming one game, and playing in another, its tough.