Discussion:When one is ECL 20 do they become epic?

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Level-adjusted epic[edit]

Daniel Draco 09:36, 28 June 2007 (MDT)[edit]

When does a character with level adjustment become epic? Is it when its hit dice/levels total reaches 21, or is it when its hit dice/levels total plus its level adjustment reaches 21?

Aarnott 09:54, 28 June 2007 (MDT)[edit]

When it's character level reaches 20. Otherwise Drow fighters would not be able to get a +20 BAB for example. The problem is of course, that they also lose out on Epic feats. Such is the way of the Epic system though. It has some major cracks in its structure.

Daniel Draco 11:18, 28 June 2007 (MDT)[edit]

I still don't understand. It says to use character level on the epic level basics page, the epic level handbook, and everywhere else I've looked, but it doesn't say whether level adjustment is part of character level. Also, what would make them lose out on epic feats?

Sledged-20070702122901

Sledged (talk)
2007 July 2 12:29 (MDT)

Relevant sources: Epic Level Handbook on page 25 (the sidebar), the 3.5 DMG on page 209, and the 3.5 FAQ on pages 2 and 3.

First thing to note are that epic rules are messy. No two sources completely agree.

  • The ELH says that you start using EAB and ESBs instead of BAB and BSBs at 21st character level (defined as class levels + racial HD). It says that you may start taking epic feats at 21st ECL (defined as class levels + racial HD + LA).
  • The DMG says that you start using EAB and ESBs and may take epic feats at 21st ECL.
  • The FAQ (on page 2) says that you start using EAB and ESBs at 21st ECL.
  • The FAQ (on page 3) says that you start using EAB and ESBs and may take epic feats at 21st character level. (Yes, the FAQ contradicts itself.)

The DMG is the most recent rule source and therefore the by WotC policy has the "official" game rule information, but I personally recommend you base "epicness" on character level, not ECL.

Also, it must be noted that going by every creature that has 21+ HD, racial HD never use epic bonuses. They continue to use BAB and BSBs into epic levels.

A drow character wouldn't miss out on epic feats, she'd just have a 2 level delay on when she'd be eligible for epic feats.

There's no better laugh than the one that you're ashamed to share with your mother.
Stephen Notley, creator of Bob the Angry Flower



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