Discussion:Knockdown and Hold the Line

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Knockdown and Hold the Line[edit]

Aarnott 08:41, 4 July 2007 (MDT)[edit]

Does Knock-Down and Hold the Line create a an automatic trip attack if you deal 10 damage with an attack of opportunity? On the same note, I know you can use a trip as an attack of opportunity, so can Improved Trip give you a trip then an attack (if the trip was successful)?

I was thinking of making a Psychic Warrior with those feats, Combat Reflexes, a high Dexterity, and use of Expansion and a Spiked Chain.

Pwsnafu 22:24, 4 July 2007 (MDT)[edit]

Knock-down's text reads "whenever you deal 10 or more points of damage" so the answer to the first question is yes (unless there is an errata which I'm not aware of). Beware it's 10 damage from a single AoO, not the total from Combat Reflexes. That's quite a lot for a spiked chain (1d6).

As for Improved Trip, probably not (you need to discuss this with your DM). The RAW reads "as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt." The literal reading is that you need to use up one attack on your turn, not an AoO. I would say not, a lenient DM might say yes.

As for your build, what are you trying to do? You're not the tank, as heavy armor is incompadible with high Dex. Here are some ideas (first is a ranged tripper).

Marshal 3 / Ranger 3 / Master ThrowerCW 5. Highlights:

  • All allies gain a bonus on Dex checks. Usually the team that wins initiative wins.
  • All allies gain a bonus on Cha checks out of combat.
  • Lots of attack using Rapid Shot, palm throw, and Two-Weapon Fighting (do the calculations yourself, but there should be at least 8). All ranged touch attacks using trip shot and weak spot. Complete battlefield control.
  • Some people don't like palm throw because it uses too many daggers. You can try returning daggers to lower that number. Expensive initially, but cheaper in the long run. Buy masterwork initially, then have your wizard add the ability for you.

If you're going the melee route, throw in Fighter 2 to net yourself Expert TacticianCAd (all allies gain +2 attack when you hit with AoO attempts) and a another feat from CAd which I can't remember the name of (it grants +4 on AoO I think). Take Marshal 1, and choose Art of War. Keep in mind your opponent will probably have Dodge and Mobility (not to mention maxed Tumble and Jump), or just blast you (Web plus continual damage begin the obvious choice). You need a contingency plan. Throw in Hexblade 1 for +2 will save (stacks with Iron Will). You might want to consider Dive for CoverCAd as well. It goes without saying, choose human so you don't get pinged with XP penalty, and choose Human Paragon 3 to net that +2 Str.

Hope that helps. Trippers are fun. :D

Sledged-20070713151840

Sledged (talk)
2007 July 13 15:18 (MDT)
The RAW reads "as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt." The literal reading is that you need to use up one attack on your turn, not an AoO.

There's a misconception with that statement. An attack in the PHB glossary is defined as "Any of numerous actions intended to harm, disable, or neutralize an opponent. The outcome of an attack is determined by an attack roll." A literal reading means that anything that requires an attack roll to resolve is considered an attack. Further more, it's called an "attack of opportunity." If that doesn't make it any more clear that it's an attack, I don't know what does.

That being said, "if you hadn't used your attack for the trip attempt," after dealing 10+ points of damage, you wouldn't have used it at all, because the extra attack the Knock-Down feat gives you is limited to a trip attack. So you can make another attack, but it can only be another trip attack, which serves no purpose against an enemy that's already prone.

Lastly, Str is far more important for a tripper build than Dex, (especially if the build utilizes Knock-Down). Countless AoO trips mean nothing if you can't ever make the opposed Str check.

You should see the discussion on this build.

There's no better laugh than the one that you're ashamed to share with your mother.
Stephen Notley, creator of Bob the Angry Flower

Pwsnafu 18:37, 13 July 2007 (MDT)[edit]

So you can make another attack, but it can only be another trip attack, which serves no purpose against an enemy that's already prone.

I don't think that's was what he was asking. My interpretation is

  1. Deal 10 points of damage from AoO.
  2. Knock-Down activates, granting you a trip attempt.
  3. You successfully trip your opponent
  4. Improved Trip activates, granting you a melee attack.
Lastly, Str is far more important for a tripper build than Dex

For a melee tripper, yes, for a ranged tripper no. A ranged tripper is never in melee so Knock-down is redundant (conveniently sidestepping the issue).

Sledged-20070714080429

Sledged (talk)
2007 July 14 08:04 (MDT)

Well, the answer to the first question is, yes, dealing 10+ points of damage with any attack, including an AoO, grants a trip attack as a free action. As for the scenario, let's add a bit more context to it:

  1. Deal 10 points of damage from AoO.
  2. Knock-Down activates, granting you a trip attempt attack.
  3. You successfully trip your opponent
  4. Improved Trip activates, granting you a melee attack as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt.

The attack that was used for the trip attempt was the free action trip attack (#2), not the attack that dealt 10 points of damage (#1). When you successfully trip an opponent with Improved Trip, you effectively get to re-use the attack that was used for the trip attempt. Consequently, it has all the applicable bonuses, penalties, options, and limitations it did when you made the trip attempt, plus any new adjustments for the opponent being prone. The limitation of the free action trip attack, is that it's a... well... a trip attack. It can only be used for tripping.

For a melee tripper, yes, for a ranged tripper no.

That is a nice build. However, you need Quick Draw, otherwise you have to use a move action to draw daggers, (unless you're holding the extra daggers in your off hand, but then you can't utilize two-weapon fighting).

If you add levels of monk, you can get more attacks with flurry of blows which can be used with shuriken (which is drawn as ammunition so you don't need Quick Draw), by 20th-level, you have 4 attacks due to BAB, 3 off-hand attacks with Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, 1 Rapid Shot attack, 2 FoB attacks, and thanks to palm throw each attack roll can affect two opponents, so you could potentially trip 20 different opponents.

I'd go with an illumian (Races of Destiny) marshal 2/fighter 2/monk 11/master thrower 5 (not necessarily in that order). Illumians ignore monk and paladin multiclass restrictions and they can choose a sigil that grants a +1 bonus to Dex checks, and Dex-based skill checks. After reaching second level, the bonus increases to +2, and the Enhanced Power Sigils feat increases the bonus by one more.

There's no better laugh than the one that you're ashamed to share with your mother.
Stephen Notley, creator of Bob the Angry Flower



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