https://www.dandwiki.com/w/api.php?action=feedcontributions&user=No+problem&feedformat=atomD&D Wiki - User contributions [en]2024-03-29T12:35:06ZUser contributionsMediaWiki 1.35.8https://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:4e_Homebrew&diff=277983Talk:4e Homebrew2008-08-26T21:01:04Z<p>No problem: </p>
<hr />
<div>==4e SRD==<br />
Will there be any material of the kind put up on this wiki? [[User:Noname|Noname]] 11:08, 1 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:I think so, but then I can't really say. However, I will note that the 4e SRD will be quite different from the 3.5e one. The 4e SRD will essentially give out page numbers and nothing else. — [[User:OptimizationFanatic|OptimizationFanatic]] <small>([[User talk:OptimizationFanatic|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/OptimizationFanatic|contrib]])</small> 14:27, 1 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::I believe that the 4e SRD will give you information to construct 4e items. That is, it will be a design guide. For example, what does a striker look like, or how powerful should a 5th level power be. That is, the rules behind the rules. However, we don't know that yet. I may be wrong. --[[User:Dmilewski|Dmilewski]] 06:58, 2 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::[http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/SRD.pdf The SRD] isn't even that anymore. Now it's... (brace yourselves) a list of terms that people are allowed to use for homebrew or GSL publishing. Not even page numbers. *sighs* Oh, and nobody's allowed to host it except for WotC. — [[User:OptimizationFanatic|OptimizationFanatic]] <small>([[User talk:OptimizationFanatic|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/OptimizationFanatic|contrib]])</small> 19:31, 21 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::Oh well... I have made a [[4e Glossary (4e Other)|glossary]] for "SRD" linking... --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 10:33, 22 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== Monsters and NPCs ==<br />
<br />
WotC is (further) blurring the lines between monsters and NPCs. I think the two pages should be combined. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 19:38, 9 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:Agree. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 23:20, 3 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== Quality Control ==<br />
<br />
I feel that much of the material currently being added to the 4e section of D&D Wiki is less than desirable. What are everyone else's thoughts on this? It feels like the start of the revised third edition section again &mdash; a lot of garbage being added which is barely formatted. Does anyone else even think this is an issue? If so, anyone have some good ideas as to how we can correct this problem? Don't get me wrong though, some great things are being added. One I have seen is the [[Aasimar (4e Race)]]. Also, if anyone is interested, [{{SERVER}}{{localurl:Special:Recentchangeslinked/Category:4e}} here] is the RC for 4e. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 23:19, 3 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:I agree, though I am still getting a handle on 4e formatting. The fact I'm not "upgrading" to D&D Vista aside, the formatting drives me up the wall. Once I have a better handle on what everything means, I can chip in my part. Until then I'll try and just focus on removing obvious dead trash entries. -- [[User:Eiji|Eiji]] 23:28, 3 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::What is really getting me is things that are becoming standard in the revised third edition section, such as templates for the breadcrumb, forms for adding new information, SMW information present with spells, races, etc, dpl2's instead of dpl's, and things like that, have yet to be implemented into the "''new''" 4e section. I feel that not only do we need to work on the actual content of this section, we also need to work on the structure of this section. Even things like categories, which should have been discussed and decided on earlier, are a complete mess. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 23:40, 3 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::Agreed on all points. I'm still trying to get a handle on the formats, too. I think structure/navigation should be handled first, then we can tackle the format of the individual pages. One issue at a time. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 23:46, 3 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::Change that. Navigation, then categories, then individual page layouts. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 23:48, 3 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::::Here is what I think we need to work on (not necessarily in this order): Navigation, categories, individual page layouts, adding new information (Forms or preloads? Where can we use which?), creating templates, and content control (I feel that things with little information, or information that is very unbalanced should be discussed for deletion &mdash; via [[Template:Delete]]). Thoughts? --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 00:03, 4 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::::I aggree, although I think we need to add templates and set up a standard format for everything before we can inprove individual pages. Also, could we add the 4e homebrew section to the sidebar thing (with the links to the various sections). --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 04:34, 4 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::We really need good templates. The hand formatting is already driving me nuts.--[[User:Dmilewski|Dmilewski]] 08:09, 4 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::::::I completely agree. Dmilewski, do you think you would have time to help a bit? Maybe, if you would not mind, you could work on the breadcrumbs... Also, Sledged, do you think you would have some time to start working on templates (your damn good at them ''':)'''). I think I'll start on trying to work out some forms for adding things (I want to learn them better), and would anyone else like to help? If so I can try to help you find a job, or if you know what you want to do please post it here so everyone knows what everyones going to try to do. Thanks! --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 15:05, 6 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::::Already workin' on them. The monster stat blocks and power stat blocks are going to be the problem ones, but I just have to modify the CSS a bit for the class and racial traits templates. Time is a bit limited for me right now, otherwise I would have had them done within first week 4e was released. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 15:37, 6 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== Game Mechanics Questions ==<br />
<br />
in damage, what is [W]? {{unsigned|No problem|2008-07-31 05:56}}<br />
<br />
:It's the weapon's damage. So 1[W] is 1d8 for a longsword, 2d6 for a maul, and 1d4 for an unarmed strike. 2[W] is 2d8, 4d6, and 2d4 for those same weapons respectively. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 09:26, 31 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::ok. another question. after reading, i am not certain what is the deal with disrupting powers (mostly spells but powers in general). i gathered if someone uses an area or range spell, he is vulnerable to an opportunity attack. however, i did not c it written explicitly whether a hit disrupts the power or spell and whether it is even possible to disrupt a power or spell (as was specifically addressed in 3.5 with the concentration check and all that). help anyone? if u dont wish to write the answer, just refer me to the relevant page in which book. tnx in advance. {{Unsigned|No problem|12:03, 23 August 2008 (MDT)}}<br />
<br />
:::AFAIK, an OA doesn't do anything except a basic attack. There is no way to disrupt a power, save an immediate interrupt power. {{Unsigned|Taritus|12:05, 23 August 2008 (MDT)}}<br />
<br />
::::where have u seen anything like that? i have seen immediate interrupts or reactions which help u move away from range or something similar but not something that actually disrupts the use of the power (and i mean direct interruption. by direct i mean something that prevents the power. by indirect, i mean something that takes u out of power's range thus foiling the power but not actually disrupting it as in 3.5). even for ranged attacks by bow, it would seem an attack could be made against the bow string or something to that effect. {{Unsigned|No problem|13:16, 23 August 2008 (MDT)}}<br />
<br />
"disintegrate" spell. if i hit, i do 5d10 plus 10 ongoing (save ends) and 5 ongoing if save is made (save ends). what does that mean? ok. 5d10 +int and ongoing 10. so at the start of target's turn, he takes 10 damage. at the end of his turn, he saves. say he succeeded. he should now take 5 ongoing. does this mean the save to end the 5 ongoing is taken at the end of his next turn thus ensuring at least another 5 damage or does he take them consecutively? i would guess the former rather than the latter but would like a "formal" ruling. also, how does ongoing damage work for objects?</div>No problemhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:4e_Homebrew&diff=277979Talk:4e Homebrew2008-08-26T20:48:05Z<p>No problem: </p>
<hr />
<div>==4e SRD==<br />
Will there be any material of the kind put up on this wiki? [[User:Noname|Noname]] 11:08, 1 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:I think so, but then I can't really say. However, I will note that the 4e SRD will be quite different from the 3.5e one. The 4e SRD will essentially give out page numbers and nothing else. — [[User:OptimizationFanatic|OptimizationFanatic]] <small>([[User talk:OptimizationFanatic|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/OptimizationFanatic|contrib]])</small> 14:27, 1 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::I believe that the 4e SRD will give you information to construct 4e items. That is, it will be a design guide. For example, what does a striker look like, or how powerful should a 5th level power be. That is, the rules behind the rules. However, we don't know that yet. I may be wrong. --[[User:Dmilewski|Dmilewski]] 06:58, 2 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::[http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/SRD.pdf The SRD] isn't even that anymore. Now it's... (brace yourselves) a list of terms that people are allowed to use for homebrew or GSL publishing. Not even page numbers. *sighs* Oh, and nobody's allowed to host it except for WotC. — [[User:OptimizationFanatic|OptimizationFanatic]] <small>([[User talk:OptimizationFanatic|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/OptimizationFanatic|contrib]])</small> 19:31, 21 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::Oh well... I have made a [[4e Glossary (4e Other)|glossary]] for "SRD" linking... --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 10:33, 22 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== Monsters and NPCs ==<br />
<br />
WotC is (further) blurring the lines between monsters and NPCs. I think the two pages should be combined. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 19:38, 9 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:Agree. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 23:20, 3 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== Quality Control ==<br />
<br />
I feel that much of the material currently being added to the 4e section of D&D Wiki is less than desirable. What are everyone else's thoughts on this? It feels like the start of the revised third edition section again &mdash; a lot of garbage being added which is barely formatted. Does anyone else even think this is an issue? If so, anyone have some good ideas as to how we can correct this problem? Don't get me wrong though, some great things are being added. One I have seen is the [[Aasimar (4e Race)]]. Also, if anyone is interested, [{{SERVER}}{{localurl:Special:Recentchangeslinked/Category:4e}} here] is the RC for 4e. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 23:19, 3 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:I agree, though I am still getting a handle on 4e formatting. The fact I'm not "upgrading" to D&D Vista aside, the formatting drives me up the wall. Once I have a better handle on what everything means, I can chip in my part. Until then I'll try and just focus on removing obvious dead trash entries. -- [[User:Eiji|Eiji]] 23:28, 3 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::What is really getting me is things that are becoming standard in the revised third edition section, such as templates for the breadcrumb, forms for adding new information, SMW information present with spells, races, etc, dpl2's instead of dpl's, and things like that, have yet to be implemented into the "''new''" 4e section. I feel that not only do we need to work on the actual content of this section, we also need to work on the structure of this section. Even things like categories, which should have been discussed and decided on earlier, are a complete mess. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 23:40, 3 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::Agreed on all points. I'm still trying to get a handle on the formats, too. I think structure/navigation should be handled first, then we can tackle the format of the individual pages. One issue at a time. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 23:46, 3 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::Change that. Navigation, then categories, then individual page layouts. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 23:48, 3 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::::Here is what I think we need to work on (not necessarily in this order): Navigation, categories, individual page layouts, adding new information (Forms or preloads? Where can we use which?), creating templates, and content control (I feel that things with little information, or information that is very unbalanced should be discussed for deletion &mdash; via [[Template:Delete]]). Thoughts? --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 00:03, 4 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::::I aggree, although I think we need to add templates and set up a standard format for everything before we can inprove individual pages. Also, could we add the 4e homebrew section to the sidebar thing (with the links to the various sections). --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 04:34, 4 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::We really need good templates. The hand formatting is already driving me nuts.--[[User:Dmilewski|Dmilewski]] 08:09, 4 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::::::I completely agree. Dmilewski, do you think you would have time to help a bit? Maybe, if you would not mind, you could work on the breadcrumbs... Also, Sledged, do you think you would have some time to start working on templates (your damn good at them ''':)'''). I think I'll start on trying to work out some forms for adding things (I want to learn them better), and would anyone else like to help? If so I can try to help you find a job, or if you know what you want to do please post it here so everyone knows what everyones going to try to do. Thanks! --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 15:05, 6 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::::Already workin' on them. The monster stat blocks and power stat blocks are going to be the problem ones, but I just have to modify the CSS a bit for the class and racial traits templates. Time is a bit limited for me right now, otherwise I would have had them done within first week 4e was released. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 15:37, 6 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== Game Mechanics Questions ==<br />
<br />
in damage, what is [W]? {{unsigned|No problem|2008-07-31 05:56}}<br />
<br />
:It's the weapon's damage. So 1[W] is 1d8 for a longsword, 2d6 for a maul, and 1d4 for an unarmed strike. 2[W] is 2d8, 4d6, and 2d4 for those same weapons respectively. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 09:26, 31 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::ok. another question. after reading, i am not certain what is the deal with disrupting powers (mostly spells but powers in general). i gathered if someone uses an area or range spell, he is vulnerable to an opportunity attack. however, i did not c it written explicitly whether a hit disrupts the power or spell and whether it is even possible to disrupt a power or spell (as was specifically addressed in 3.5 with the concentration check and all that). help anyone? if u dont wish to write the answer, just refer me to the relevant page in which book. tnx in advance. {{Unsigned|No problem|12:03, 23 August 2008 (MDT)}}<br />
<br />
:::AFAIK, an OA doesn't do anything except a basic attack. There is no way to disrupt a power, save an immediate interrupt power. {{Unsigned|Taritus|12:05, 23 August 2008 (MDT)}}<br />
<br />
::::where have u seen anything like that? i have seen immediate interrupts or reactions which help u move away from range or something similar but not something that actually disrupts the use of the power (and i mean direct interruption. by direct i mean something that prevents the power. by indirect, i mean something that takes u out of power's range thus foiling the power but not actually disrupting it as in 3.5). even for ranged attacks by bow, it would seem an attack could be made against the bow string or something to that effect. {{Unsigned|No problem|13:16, 23 August 2008 (MDT)}}<br />
<br />
"disintegrate" spell. if i hit, i do 5d6 plus 10 ongoing (save ends) and 5 ongoing if save is made (save ends). what does that mean? ok. 5d6 +int and ongoing 10. so at the start of target's turn, he takes 10 damage. at the end of his turn, he saves. say he succeeded. he should now take 5 ongoing. does this mean the save to end the 5 ongoing is taken at the end of his next turn thus ensuring at least another 5 damage or does he take them consecutively? i would guess the former rather than the latter but would like a "formal" ruling.</div>No problemhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:4e_Classes,_Paragon_Paths,_and_Epic_Destinies&diff=277436Talk:4e Classes, Paragon Paths, and Epic Destinies2008-08-23T21:33:22Z<p>No problem: </p>
<hr />
<div>== All 4e Base Classes ==<br />
<br />
Whats wrong with the "all 4e base classes"? It keeps coming up with an error. Can somebody sort it please? --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 09:10, 20 January 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
:Someone must have made the dpl incorrect or somesuch... The problem is that the page is too large for it to load correctly. I will have [[User:Blue Dragon|Blue Dragon]] take a look. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 10:18, 28 January 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
== Organization ==<br />
<br />
Shouldn't it be Class-Paragon Path-Epic Destiny-NPC instead of duplicating 3e? Regards--[[User:Pwsnafu|Pwsnafu]] 18:29, 6 February 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
:Yes. Incidentally, are epic destinies just a followon from paragon paths or a seperate thing entirely? {{Unsigned|Sam Kay|06:54, 15 February 2008 (MST)}}<br />
<br />
::My understanding is that you choose a Paragon Path at level 11 and an Epic Destiny at level 21. If you look at the Christmas present (the Elf racial entry) the racial feat has a requirement "Heroic Tier", so it doesn't work in Paragon or Epic. I think this to prevent the "epic is too complicated" criticism of 3E. So my understanding is that they are separate things. What we don't know is whether you can multiclass a Paragon Path. Regards --[[User:Pwsnafu|Pwsnafu]] 17:58, 16 February 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
::: Only one of each. One exception is that you give up a paragon path to extend your heroic tier multiclassing, but that's the only exception right now. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 19:28, 9 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::: After-note: NPC classes no longer exist. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 19:29, 9 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== questions ==<br />
<br />
i dont get some things:<br />
:1. wizard. daily spells: u r supposed to begin knowing two daily spells and each time u gain a level that lets u select a daily spell, u choose two daily spells to add to spellbook. fine. now, what happens when u get to replace a daily power? do u learn two new powers from the new level or do u replace any two daily powers u had with two daily powers of ur current level? or something else entirely?<br />
:2. related to 1, what happens when u get ur paragon daily spell at level 20? do u just add it to spellbook or is it known internally like encounter powers? and if u add it to spellbook, do u add another power or ur level or lower as per choosing two daily spells when u learn get to choose new daily spell?<br />
:3. this is more of a bitch about the classes in general: why would paragon tier FORCE me to choose an 11th level encounter power i will be stuck with throughout my entire career as one of my (at most) 4 encounter powers? these are the powers i use most of all. each encounter (usually) starts witht he firing off of encounter powers and i get stuck at level 20+ with a sucky paragon 11th level encounter power which i can never replace and must use.<br />
:4. the paragon path warmage has the lovely daily power "closing spell" which does 3d10 +int mod damage and an additional 5d10 damage if this is the last daily power of the day. very nice and useful. now, the archmage epic path lets u choose 1 daily power to use as an encounter spell at level 30. a few questions arise: 1. what happens if i choose "closing spell" as this power? under what conditions would i get the additional 5d10 damage? 2. would this daily spell take up one of my encounter power slots of daily spells slots, meaning, say i chose daily power X to be an encounter spell (remember, i am level 30). do i get to use power X every encounter but in addition i can use only 3 other daily powers and 4 other encounter powers or can i use 4 daily powers, power X every encounter and another 3 encounter powers? how would that work? plus, if an archmage chooses to be able to cast "closing spell" twice daily, and it is the last daily spell he has left, does he gain the additional 5d10 for both castings or just the second one?<br />
:5. when u attack with an area spell which requires u make an attack, do u make one attack roll which is compared to the relevant defenses of those in the area or do u make an attack roll for each creature in the area?<br />
<br />
:Well, for starters, this isn't a forum, proper spelling is requested, as it's not too hard. Also, sign your posts.<br />
**1. You would take two new spells if you wanted to. If not, pick one, replace, and then you're good. If not pick two, replace two. Simple.<br />
**2. As you can't get any other daily spells from the Paragon tier, you only gain that single spell. There are no level 20 spells.<br />
**3. The book, if you would read it before posting, italicizes to make it more apparent, "All the powers and features you gain from your paragon path come ''in addition'' to your class powers and features, not instead of them."<br />
**4. You answered your own question. It's no longer a daily power if you take it as an Archmage, thus you can never gain the +5d10.<br />
**5. Again, read the book. You make an attack roll for each creature in the area, and one damage roll.--[[User:Taritus|Taritus]] 08:02, 21 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:: <br />
**1. that clarifies it.<br />
**2. i thought perhaps that level or lower, as is customary when choosing new daily spells. lower in this instance since, as u said, there are no 20th level daily spells.<br />
**3. i know that it is supposed to come in addition but! in addition to what?! what is the number supposed to be without it? when going over the character advancement table, i noticed that at level 11, u gain, and i quote "paragon path features; gain 1 paragon path encounter attack power; gain 1 feat". there is no mention of gaining a "regular" encounter power whereas in the column of total powers known, u seem to gain an encounter power and since every time one of the numbers for encounter, daily or utility powers go up u also get a corresponding mention in the powers and features column ("gain one encounter attack power" for example) i had assumed i was fuzzy on something. by the way, the same thing applies to the 12th level utility power. the number for utility power goes up one, the powers and features column states u gain one paragon path utility power and there is NO mention of a gained "regular" utility power. same for level 20 when u gain a paragon daily attack spell. i gather from ur comments that, well, 1 encounter, daily and utility powers of the 4/4/7 i have at level 30, come from paragon path and another utility comes from epic destiny. as i said, this part is me bitching about it. seems i would rather have my own choice of powers and not get stuck at level 27 with an 11th level encounter attack power that i cant replace or retrain.<br />
**4. ok.<br />
**5. i was, indeed, to lazy to look for that part in the entire book. thanks.<br />
<br />
<br />
::now that i read the character advancement table again and more closely, there is nothing to prevent me from replacing an encounter or daily power when the table says i can replace said power. one cannot retrain paragon path powers but i did not find anything that prohibits replacing them. do u know of any such thing?<br />
<br />
:::well, how about this: a 30th level archmage chooses "shape magic" to be his daily spell to be made an encounter spell (archspell feature). this means the archmage can recharge ALL his powers after an encounter and, had he been a warmage in paragon path, can use "closing spell" twice as his last daily spell per encounter thus making him a literal killing machine. i am still trying to choose the daily spell that can be used twice daily for the archmage. suggestions? well, that choice can be made daily so is very flexible.<br />
<br />
::::Your formatting makes this very difficult to read... Oh well. Again, paragon powers are gained in addition to normal powers. Never when you gain a paragon power is there an asterisk marking that you must replace a power. You replace an encounter power at level 10, keeping you at 3, and gain an extra at level 11, increasing it to 4. If as an archmage you take a Daily power as an Encounter power, it is an encounter power, and thus any effects mentioning a daily power to not apply to it. Encounter power effects, however do.--[[User:Taritus|Taritus]] 09:28, 21 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::: thought as much. what say u about the archmage loophole?<br />
<br />
::::::It doesn't exist. Epic Destiny powers lack power sources, and Shape Magic says one arcane power. Arcane referring to the power source. Plus, encounter powers may only be used during encounters, and only once during each encounter, so no getting all your powers back. Though if you're talking about only regaining Closing Spell, and using it twice to get the +5d10 bonus you must have used all your real Daily powers, even though Closing Spell isn't a Daily power anymore. Throw out all your Dailies at the beginning of the session, then lay waste with Closing Spell. Yeah, that works.--[[User:Taritus|Taritus]] 10:30, 21 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::i meant making "shape magic" my encounter spell. "archspell" seems to allow it since it is a daily spell. and u can, according to my understanding, use encounter spells outside of encounters (encounter spell is a term refering to a power which can be recherged after a 5 minute rest. it is not, as i c it, a term refering to when u can use it). u just need to rest 5 minutes after using it but given that u have at most 4 daily spells plus 7 utility daily spells u will just need 11 times 5 minutes recharging all your daily powers. an hour say. not a short time but definitely useable. <br />
<br />
:::::::then, using this power during an actual encounter, after having spent all your daily spells except for "closing spell", u can use "closing spell" once as a killer and then regain it using "shape magic" as an encounter spell and use it again as a killer.<br />
<br />
::::::::Again, it helps to read. Quoth PHB: '''Encounter Powers''' An encounter power can be used once per encounter. You need to take a short rest (page 263) before you can use one again. Encounter powers produce more powerful, more dramatic effects than at-will powers. If you’re a martial character, they are exploits you’ve practiced extensively but can pull off only once in a while. If you’re an arcane or divine character, these are spells or prayers of such power that they take time to re-form in your mind after you unleash their magic energy.--[[User:Taritus|Taritus]] 11:30, 21 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::::You can't make ''shape magic'' your encounter spell, because only daily spells qualify. ''Shape magic'' is not a spell because it doesn't have the "arcane" keyword. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 11:32, 21 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::::::::Oh, didn't catch that.--[[User:Taritus|Taritus]] 11:38, 21 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::::::::: encounter spells arent used only in encounters. that is a ridiculous notion. else i would keep grasshoppers in my backpack, pull one out each time i would wish to use an encounter power and have an "encounter" recognized with the grasshopper as enemy and blast the grasshopper (where, of course, i put grasshopper where i would like to blast). clearly this is ridiculous. or maybe just tell the DM "i suspect there are enemies there and i use an ancounter power". in general, encounter powers are used in what is properly called "encounters" meaning with enemies and such. but at the essence, "encounter" isnt well defined and as i c it, an encounter power can be used whenever, but requires 5 minutes of rest afterwards to regain it (and other encounter powers).<br />
<br />
:::::::::::: perhaps i should remind you that daily spells arent "daily". you can, in fact, cast more than one daily spell in some day (though not every day). recall that daily spells are regained after an extended rest which means that u can regain ur daily spells every 18 hours. 16 if u r eladrin. in short, spells are clasified, in my proudful humble opinion, according to the shortest time u can regain them: for at will powers it is practically no time at all, for encounter powers it is 5 minutes and for daily spells it is 18 hours.<br />
<br />
:::::::::::: also, reading "closing spell" more closely, it states that if u dont have any OTHER daily spells, u get an additional 5d10 of damage. so if u indeed choose it twice per day as an archmage feature, u would indeed be able to use it twice and with the additional 5d10 of damage on both times. i do apologize for format if i am indeed not using it properly as u suggested earlier.<br />
<br />
::::::::::::: or not LOL i dont know anymore....(that is meant for the "closing spell" remark. not the encounter power debate).<br />
<br />
:::::::::::::: ''Closing spell'' + spell recall is questionable whether the first use of the spell deals the extra 5d10 damage. The ''closing spell'' + archspell combo, however, looks a bit more valid. Given that it can't be pulled off until 30th level, I'd allow it, and it looks to be a worth while selection especially when you compare it to ''meteor swarm''. Note that ''meteor swarm'' affects all creatures, where ''closing spell'' only affects enemies. I suggest putting them both in [[4e Optimized Character Builds]]. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 13:18, 21 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::::::::::no. u cant use "shape magic" after using "closing spell" with the additional 5d10 damage since "closing spell" requires u have no other daily powers. it does not say "no other daily arcane powers". "shape magic" is a daily power. hence it cannot be available. however, u can use the epic feat "arcane mastery" for that purpose. better than "shape magic" even, u can regain "closing spell" a number of times a day equal to your actions points meaning at least once a day and likely more than that. "arcane mastery" allows u to substitute one action point per encounter to regain one daily spell. nice. as for archspell, i would choose "legion's hold" over "meteor swarm" or "closing spell" cause, while it does less damage, the area of damage is astounding, it affects only enemies and does 2d10 plus stun if it hits. stunning has great effect.</div>No problemhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:4e_Classes,_Paragon_Paths,_and_Epic_Destinies&diff=277423Talk:4e Classes, Paragon Paths, and Epic Destinies2008-08-23T21:12:57Z<p>No problem: </p>
<hr />
<div>== All 4e Base Classes ==<br />
<br />
Whats wrong with the "all 4e base classes"? It keeps coming up with an error. Can somebody sort it please? --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 09:10, 20 January 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
:Someone must have made the dpl incorrect or somesuch... The problem is that the page is too large for it to load correctly. I will have [[User:Blue Dragon|Blue Dragon]] take a look. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 10:18, 28 January 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
== Organization ==<br />
<br />
Shouldn't it be Class-Paragon Path-Epic Destiny-NPC instead of duplicating 3e? Regards--[[User:Pwsnafu|Pwsnafu]] 18:29, 6 February 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
:Yes. Incidentally, are epic destinies just a followon from paragon paths or a seperate thing entirely? {{Unsigned|Sam Kay|06:54, 15 February 2008 (MST)}}<br />
<br />
::My understanding is that you choose a Paragon Path at level 11 and an Epic Destiny at level 21. If you look at the Christmas present (the Elf racial entry) the racial feat has a requirement "Heroic Tier", so it doesn't work in Paragon or Epic. I think this to prevent the "epic is too complicated" criticism of 3E. So my understanding is that they are separate things. What we don't know is whether you can multiclass a Paragon Path. Regards --[[User:Pwsnafu|Pwsnafu]] 17:58, 16 February 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
::: Only one of each. One exception is that you give up a paragon path to extend your heroic tier multiclassing, but that's the only exception right now. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 19:28, 9 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::: After-note: NPC classes no longer exist. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 19:29, 9 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== questions ==<br />
<br />
i dont get some things:<br />
:1. wizard. daily spells: u r supposed to begin knowing two daily spells and each time u gain a level that lets u select a daily spell, u choose two daily spells to add to spellbook. fine. now, what happens when u get to replace a daily power? do u learn two new powers from the new level or do u replace any two daily powers u had with two daily powers of ur current level? or something else entirely?<br />
:2. related to 1, what happens when u get ur paragon daily spell at level 20? do u just add it to spellbook or is it known internally like encounter powers? and if u add it to spellbook, do u add another power or ur level or lower as per choosing two daily spells when u learn get to choose new daily spell?<br />
:3. this is more of a bitch about the classes in general: why would paragon tier FORCE me to choose an 11th level encounter power i will be stuck with throughout my entire career as one of my (at most) 4 encounter powers? these are the powers i use most of all. each encounter (usually) starts witht he firing off of encounter powers and i get stuck at level 20+ with a sucky paragon 11th level encounter power which i can never replace and must use.<br />
:4. the paragon path warmage has the lovely daily power "closing spell" which does 3d10 +int mod damage and an additional 5d10 damage if this is the last daily power of the day. very nice and useful. now, the archmage epic path lets u choose 1 daily power to use as an encounter spell at level 30. a few questions arise: 1. what happens if i choose "closing spell" as this power? under what conditions would i get the additional 5d10 damage? 2. would this daily spell take up one of my encounter power slots of daily spells slots, meaning, say i chose daily power X to be an encounter spell (remember, i am level 30). do i get to use power X every encounter but in addition i can use only 3 other daily powers and 4 other encounter powers or can i use 4 daily powers, power X every encounter and another 3 encounter powers? how would that work? plus, if an archmage chooses to be able to cast "closing spell" twice daily, and it is the last daily spell he has left, does he gain the additional 5d10 for both castings or just the second one?<br />
:5. when u attack with an area spell which requires u make an attack, do u make one attack roll which is compared to the relevant defenses of those in the area or do u make an attack roll for each creature in the area?<br />
<br />
:Well, for starters, this isn't a forum, proper spelling is requested, as it's not too hard. Also, sign your posts.<br />
**1. You would take two new spells if you wanted to. If not, pick one, replace, and then you're good. If not pick two, replace two. Simple.<br />
**2. As you can't get any other daily spells from the Paragon tier, you only gain that single spell. There are no level 20 spells.<br />
**3. The book, if you would read it before posting, italicizes to make it more apparent, "All the powers and features you gain from your paragon path come ''in addition'' to your class powers and features, not instead of them."<br />
**4. You answered your own question. It's no longer a daily power if you take it as an Archmage, thus you can never gain the +5d10.<br />
**5. Again, read the book. You make an attack roll for each creature in the area, and one damage roll.--[[User:Taritus|Taritus]] 08:02, 21 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:: <br />
**1. that clarifies it.<br />
**2. i thought perhaps that level or lower, as is customary when choosing new daily spells. lower in this instance since, as u said, there are no 20th level daily spells.<br />
**3. i know that it is supposed to come in addition but! in addition to what?! what is the number supposed to be without it? when going over the character advancement table, i noticed that at level 11, u gain, and i quote "paragon path features; gain 1 paragon path encounter attack power; gain 1 feat". there is no mention of gaining a "regular" encounter power whereas in the column of total powers known, u seem to gain an encounter power and since every time one of the numbers for encounter, daily or utility powers go up u also get a corresponding mention in the powers and features column ("gain one encounter attack power" for example) i had assumed i was fuzzy on something. by the way, the same thing applies to the 12th level utility power. the number for utility power goes up one, the powers and features column states u gain one paragon path utility power and there is NO mention of a gained "regular" utility power. same for level 20 when u gain a paragon daily attack spell. i gather from ur comments that, well, 1 encounter, daily and utility powers of the 4/4/7 i have at level 30, come from paragon path and another utility comes from epic destiny. as i said, this part is me bitching about it. seems i would rather have my own choice of powers and not get stuck at level 27 with an 11th level encounter attack power that i cant replace or retrain.<br />
**4. ok.<br />
**5. i was, indeed, to lazy to look for that part in the entire book. thanks.<br />
<br />
<br />
::now that i read the character advancement table again and more closely, there is nothing to prevent me from replacing an encounter or daily power when the table says i can replace said power. one cannot retrain paragon path powers but i did not find anything that prohibits replacing them. do u know of any such thing?<br />
<br />
:::well, how about this: a 30th level archmage chooses "shape magic" to be his daily spell to be made an encounter spell (archspell feature). this means the archmage can recharge ALL his powers after an encounter and, had he been a warmage in paragon path, can use "closing spell" twice as his last daily spell per encounter thus making him a literal killing machine. i am still trying to choose the daily spell that can be used twice daily for the archmage. suggestions? well, that choice can be made daily so is very flexible.<br />
<br />
::::Your formatting makes this very difficult to read... Oh well. Again, paragon powers are gained in addition to normal powers. Never when you gain a paragon power is there an asterisk marking that you must replace a power. You replace an encounter power at level 10, keeping you at 3, and gain an extra at level 11, increasing it to 4. If as an archmage you take a Daily power as an Encounter power, it is an encounter power, and thus any effects mentioning a daily power to not apply to it. Encounter power effects, however do.--[[User:Taritus|Taritus]] 09:28, 21 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::: thought as much. what say u about the archmage loophole?<br />
<br />
::::::It doesn't exist. Epic Destiny powers lack power sources, and Shape Magic says one arcane power. Arcane referring to the power source. Plus, encounter powers may only be used during encounters, and only once during each encounter, so no getting all your powers back. Though if you're talking about only regaining Closing Spell, and using it twice to get the +5d10 bonus you must have used all your real Daily powers, even though Closing Spell isn't a Daily power anymore. Throw out all your Dailies at the beginning of the session, then lay waste with Closing Spell. Yeah, that works.--[[User:Taritus|Taritus]] 10:30, 21 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::i meant making "shape magic" my encounter spell. "archspell" seems to allow it since it is a daily spell. and u can, according to my understanding, use encounter spells outside of encounters (encounter spell is a term refering to a power which can be recherged after a 5 minute rest. it is not, as i c it, a term refering to when u can use it). u just need to rest 5 minutes after using it but given that u have at most 4 daily spells plus 7 utility daily spells u will just need 11 times 5 minutes recharging all your daily powers. an hour say. not a short time but definitely useable. <br />
<br />
:::::::then, using this power during an actual encounter, after having spent all your daily spells except for "closing spell", u can use "closing spell" once as a killer and then regain it using "shape magic" as an encounter spell and use it again as a killer.<br />
<br />
::::::::Again, it helps to read. Quoth PHB: '''Encounter Powers''' An encounter power can be used once per encounter. You need to take a short rest (page 263) before you can use one again. Encounter powers produce more powerful, more dramatic effects than at-will powers. If you’re a martial character, they are exploits you’ve practiced extensively but can pull off only once in a while. If you’re an arcane or divine character, these are spells or prayers of such power that they take time to re-form in your mind after you unleash their magic energy.--[[User:Taritus|Taritus]] 11:30, 21 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::::You can't make ''shape magic'' your encounter spell, because only daily spells qualify. ''Shape magic'' is not a spell because it doesn't have the "arcane" keyword. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 11:32, 21 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::::::::Oh, didn't catch that.--[[User:Taritus|Taritus]] 11:38, 21 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::::::::: encounter spells arent used only in encounters. that is a ridiculous notion. else i would keep grasshoppers in my backpack, pull one out each time i would wish to use an encounter power and have an "encounter" recognized with the grasshopper as enemy and blast the grasshopper (where, of course, i put grasshopper where i would like to blast). clearly this is ridiculous. or maybe just tell the DM "i suspect there are enemies there and i use an ancounter power". in general, encounter powers are used in what is properly called "encounters" meaning with enemies and such. but at the essence, "encounter" isnt well defined and as i c it, an encounter power can be used whenever, but requires 5 minutes of rest afterwards to regain it (and other encounter powers).<br />
<br />
:::::::::::: perhaps i should remind you that daily spells arent "daily". you can, in fact, cast more than one daily spell in some day (though not every day). recall that daily spells are regained after an extended rest which means that u can regain ur daily spells every 18 hours. 16 if u r eladrin. in short, spells are clasified, in my proudful humble opinion, according to the shortest time u can regain them: for at will powers it is practically no time at all, for encounter powers it is 5 minutes and for daily spells it is 18 hours.<br />
<br />
:::::::::::: also, reading "closing spell" more closely, it states that if u dont have any OTHER daily spells, u get an additional 5d10 of damage. so if u indeed choose it twice per day as an archmage feature, u would indeed be able to use it twice and with the additional 5d10 of damage on both times. i do apologize for format if i am indeed not using it properly as u suggested earlier.<br />
<br />
::::::::::::: or not LOL i dont know anymore....(that is meant for the "closing spell" remark. not the encounter power debate).<br />
<br />
:::::::::::::: ''Closing spell'' + spell recall is questionable whether the first use of the spell deals the extra 5d10 damage. The ''closing spell'' + archspell combo, however, looks a bit more valid. Given that it can't be pulled off until 30th level, I'd allow it, and it looks to be a worth while selection especially when you compare it to ''meteor swarm''. Note that ''meteor swarm'' affects all creatures, where ''closing spell'' only affects enemies. I suggest putting them both in [[4e Optimized Character Builds]]. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 13:18, 21 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::::::::::no. u cant use "shape magic" after using "closing spell" with the additional 5d10 damage since "closing spell" requires u have no other daily powers. it does not say "no other daily arcane powers". "shape magic" is a daily power. hence it cannot be available. however, u can use the epic feat "arcane mastery" for that purpose. better than "shape magic" even, u can regain "closing spell" a number of times a day equal to your actions points meaning at least once a day and likely more than that. "arcane mastery" allows u to substitute one action point per encounter to regain one daily spell. nice.</div>No problemhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:4e_Classes,_Paragon_Paths,_and_Epic_Destinies&diff=277406Talk:4e Classes, Paragon Paths, and Epic Destinies2008-08-23T21:02:14Z<p>No problem: </p>
<hr />
<div>== All 4e Base Classes ==<br />
<br />
Whats wrong with the "all 4e base classes"? It keeps coming up with an error. Can somebody sort it please? --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 09:10, 20 January 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
:Someone must have made the dpl incorrect or somesuch... The problem is that the page is too large for it to load correctly. I will have [[User:Blue Dragon|Blue Dragon]] take a look. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 10:18, 28 January 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
== Organization ==<br />
<br />
Shouldn't it be Class-Paragon Path-Epic Destiny-NPC instead of duplicating 3e? Regards--[[User:Pwsnafu|Pwsnafu]] 18:29, 6 February 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
:Yes. Incidentally, are epic destinies just a followon from paragon paths or a seperate thing entirely? {{Unsigned|Sam Kay|06:54, 15 February 2008 (MST)}}<br />
<br />
::My understanding is that you choose a Paragon Path at level 11 and an Epic Destiny at level 21. If you look at the Christmas present (the Elf racial entry) the racial feat has a requirement "Heroic Tier", so it doesn't work in Paragon or Epic. I think this to prevent the "epic is too complicated" criticism of 3E. So my understanding is that they are separate things. What we don't know is whether you can multiclass a Paragon Path. Regards --[[User:Pwsnafu|Pwsnafu]] 17:58, 16 February 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
::: Only one of each. One exception is that you give up a paragon path to extend your heroic tier multiclassing, but that's the only exception right now. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 19:28, 9 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::: After-note: NPC classes no longer exist. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 19:29, 9 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== questions ==<br />
<br />
i dont get some things:<br />
:1. wizard. daily spells: u r supposed to begin knowing two daily spells and each time u gain a level that lets u select a daily spell, u choose two daily spells to add to spellbook. fine. now, what happens when u get to replace a daily power? do u learn two new powers from the new level or do u replace any two daily powers u had with two daily powers of ur current level? or something else entirely?<br />
:2. related to 1, what happens when u get ur paragon daily spell at level 20? do u just add it to spellbook or is it known internally like encounter powers? and if u add it to spellbook, do u add another power or ur level or lower as per choosing two daily spells when u learn get to choose new daily spell?<br />
:3. this is more of a bitch about the classes in general: why would paragon tier FORCE me to choose an 11th level encounter power i will be stuck with throughout my entire career as one of my (at most) 4 encounter powers? these are the powers i use most of all. each encounter (usually) starts witht he firing off of encounter powers and i get stuck at level 20+ with a sucky paragon 11th level encounter power which i can never replace and must use.<br />
:4. the paragon path warmage has the lovely daily power "closing spell" which does 3d10 +int mod damage and an additional 5d10 damage if this is the last daily power of the day. very nice and useful. now, the archmage epic path lets u choose 1 daily power to use as an encounter spell at level 30. a few questions arise: 1. what happens if i choose "closing spell" as this power? under what conditions would i get the additional 5d10 damage? 2. would this daily spell take up one of my encounter power slots of daily spells slots, meaning, say i chose daily power X to be an encounter spell (remember, i am level 30). do i get to use power X every encounter but in addition i can use only 3 other daily powers and 4 other encounter powers or can i use 4 daily powers, power X every encounter and another 3 encounter powers? how would that work? plus, if an archmage chooses to be able to cast "closing spell" twice daily, and it is the last daily spell he has left, does he gain the additional 5d10 for both castings or just the second one?<br />
:5. when u attack with an area spell which requires u make an attack, do u make one attack roll which is compared to the relevant defenses of those in the area or do u make an attack roll for each creature in the area?<br />
<br />
:Well, for starters, this isn't a forum, proper spelling is requested, as it's not too hard. Also, sign your posts.<br />
**1. You would take two new spells if you wanted to. If not, pick one, replace, and then you're good. If not pick two, replace two. Simple.<br />
**2. As you can't get any other daily spells from the Paragon tier, you only gain that single spell. There are no level 20 spells.<br />
**3. The book, if you would read it before posting, italicizes to make it more apparent, "All the powers and features you gain from your paragon path come ''in addition'' to your class powers and features, not instead of them."<br />
**4. You answered your own question. It's no longer a daily power if you take it as an Archmage, thus you can never gain the +5d10.<br />
**5. Again, read the book. You make an attack roll for each creature in the area, and one damage roll.--[[User:Taritus|Taritus]] 08:02, 21 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:: <br />
**1. that clarifies it.<br />
**2. i thought perhaps that level or lower, as is customary when choosing new daily spells. lower in this instance since, as u said, there are no 20th level daily spells.<br />
**3. i know that it is supposed to come in addition but! in addition to what?! what is the number supposed to be without it? when going over the character advancement table, i noticed that at level 11, u gain, and i quote "paragon path features; gain 1 paragon path encounter attack power; gain 1 feat". there is no mention of gaining a "regular" encounter power whereas in the column of total powers known, u seem to gain an encounter power and since every time one of the numbers for encounter, daily or utility powers go up u also get a corresponding mention in the powers and features column ("gain one encounter attack power" for example) i had assumed i was fuzzy on something. by the way, the same thing applies to the 12th level utility power. the number for utility power goes up one, the powers and features column states u gain one paragon path utility power and there is NO mention of a gained "regular" utility power. same for level 20 when u gain a paragon daily attack spell. i gather from ur comments that, well, 1 encounter, daily and utility powers of the 4/4/7 i have at level 30, come from paragon path and another utility comes from epic destiny. as i said, this part is me bitching about it. seems i would rather have my own choice of powers and not get stuck at level 27 with an 11th level encounter attack power that i cant replace or retrain.<br />
**4. ok.<br />
**5. i was, indeed, to lazy to look for that part in the entire book. thanks.<br />
<br />
<br />
::now that i read the character advancement table again and more closely, there is nothing to prevent me from replacing an encounter or daily power when the table says i can replace said power. one cannot retrain paragon path powers but i did not find anything that prohibits replacing them. do u know of any such thing?<br />
<br />
:::well, how about this: a 30th level archmage chooses "shape magic" to be his daily spell to be made an encounter spell (archspell feature). this means the archmage can recharge ALL his powers after an encounter and, had he been a warmage in paragon path, can use "closing spell" twice as his last daily spell per encounter thus making him a literal killing machine. i am still trying to choose the daily spell that can be used twice daily for the archmage. suggestions? well, that choice can be made daily so is very flexible.<br />
<br />
::::Your formatting makes this very difficult to read... Oh well. Again, paragon powers are gained in addition to normal powers. Never when you gain a paragon power is there an asterisk marking that you must replace a power. You replace an encounter power at level 10, keeping you at 3, and gain an extra at level 11, increasing it to 4. If as an archmage you take a Daily power as an Encounter power, it is an encounter power, and thus any effects mentioning a daily power to not apply to it. Encounter power effects, however do.--[[User:Taritus|Taritus]] 09:28, 21 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::: thought as much. what say u about the archmage loophole?<br />
<br />
::::::It doesn't exist. Epic Destiny powers lack power sources, and Shape Magic says one arcane power. Arcane referring to the power source. Plus, encounter powers may only be used during encounters, and only once during each encounter, so no getting all your powers back. Though if you're talking about only regaining Closing Spell, and using it twice to get the +5d10 bonus you must have used all your real Daily powers, even though Closing Spell isn't a Daily power anymore. Throw out all your Dailies at the beginning of the session, then lay waste with Closing Spell. Yeah, that works.--[[User:Taritus|Taritus]] 10:30, 21 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::i meant making "shape magic" my encounter spell. "archspell" seems to allow it since it is a daily spell. and u can, according to my understanding, use encounter spells outside of encounters (encounter spell is a term refering to a power which can be recherged after a 5 minute rest. it is not, as i c it, a term refering to when u can use it). u just need to rest 5 minutes after using it but given that u have at most 4 daily spells plus 7 utility daily spells u will just need 11 times 5 minutes recharging all your daily powers. an hour say. not a short time but definitely useable. <br />
<br />
:::::::then, using this power during an actual encounter, after having spent all your daily spells except for "closing spell", u can use "closing spell" once as a killer and then regain it using "shape magic" as an encounter spell and use it again as a killer.<br />
<br />
::::::::Again, it helps to read. Quoth PHB: '''Encounter Powers''' An encounter power can be used once per encounter. You need to take a short rest (page 263) before you can use one again. Encounter powers produce more powerful, more dramatic effects than at-will powers. If you’re a martial character, they are exploits you’ve practiced extensively but can pull off only once in a while. If you’re an arcane or divine character, these are spells or prayers of such power that they take time to re-form in your mind after you unleash their magic energy.--[[User:Taritus|Taritus]] 11:30, 21 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::::You can't make ''shape magic'' your encounter spell, because only daily spells qualify. ''Shape magic'' is not a spell because it doesn't have the "arcane" keyword. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 11:32, 21 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::::::::Oh, didn't catch that.--[[User:Taritus|Taritus]] 11:38, 21 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::::::::: encounter spells arent used only in encounters. that is a ridiculous notion. else i would keep grasshoppers in my backpack, pull one out each time i would wish to use an encounter power and have an "encounter" recognized with the grasshopper as enemy and blast the grasshopper (where, of course, i put grasshopper where i would like to blast). clearly this is ridiculous. or maybe just tell the DM "i suspect there are enemies there and i use an ancounter power". in general, encounter powers are used in what is properly called "encounters" meaning with enemies and such. but at the essence, "encounter" isnt well defined and as i c it, an encounter power can be used whenever, but requires 5 minutes of rest afterwards to regain it (and other encounter powers).<br />
<br />
:::::::::::: perhaps i should remind you that daily spells arent "daily". you can, in fact, cast more than one daily spell in some day (though not every day). recall that daily spells are regained after an extended rest which means that u can regain ur daily spells every 18 hours. 16 if u r eladrin. in short, spells are clasified, in my proudful humble opinion, according to the shortest time u can regain them: for at will powers it is practically no time at all, for encounter powers it is 5 minutes and for daily spells it is 18 hours.<br />
<br />
:::::::::::: also, reading "closing spell" more closely, it states that if u dont have any OTHER daily spells, u get an additional 5d10 of damage. so if u indeed choose it twice per day as an archmage feature, u would indeed be able to use it twice and with the additional 5d10 of damage on both times. i do apologize for format if i am indeed not using it properly as u suggested earlier.<br />
<br />
::::::::::::: or not LOL i dont know anymore....(that is meant for the "closing spell" remark. not the encounter power debate).<br />
<br />
:::::::::::::: ''Closing spell'' + spell recall is questionable whether the first use of the spell deals the extra 5d10 damage. The ''closing spell'' + archspell combo, however, looks a bit more valid. Given that it can't be pulled off until 30th level, I'd allow it, and it looks to be a worth while selection especially when you compare it to ''meteor swarm''. Note that ''meteor swarm'' affects all creatures, where ''closing spell'' only affects enemies. I suggest putting them both in [[4e Optimized Character Builds]]. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 13:18, 21 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::::::::::no. u cant use "shape magic" after using "closing spell" with the additional 5d10 damage since "closing spell" requires u have no other daily powers. it does not say "no other daily arcane powers". "shape magic" is a daily power. hence it cannot be available.</div>No problemhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:4e_Classes,_Paragon_Paths,_and_Epic_Destinies&diff=277404Talk:4e Classes, Paragon Paths, and Epic Destinies2008-08-23T21:01:14Z<p>No problem: </p>
<hr />
<div>== All 4e Base Classes ==<br />
<br />
Whats wrong with the "all 4e base classes"? It keeps coming up with an error. Can somebody sort it please? --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 09:10, 20 January 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
:Someone must have made the dpl incorrect or somesuch... The problem is that the page is too large for it to load correctly. I will have [[User:Blue Dragon|Blue Dragon]] take a look. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 10:18, 28 January 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
== Organization ==<br />
<br />
Shouldn't it be Class-Paragon Path-Epic Destiny-NPC instead of duplicating 3e? Regards--[[User:Pwsnafu|Pwsnafu]] 18:29, 6 February 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
:Yes. Incidentally, are epic destinies just a followon from paragon paths or a seperate thing entirely? {{Unsigned|Sam Kay|06:54, 15 February 2008 (MST)}}<br />
<br />
::My understanding is that you choose a Paragon Path at level 11 and an Epic Destiny at level 21. If you look at the Christmas present (the Elf racial entry) the racial feat has a requirement "Heroic Tier", so it doesn't work in Paragon or Epic. I think this to prevent the "epic is too complicated" criticism of 3E. So my understanding is that they are separate things. What we don't know is whether you can multiclass a Paragon Path. Regards --[[User:Pwsnafu|Pwsnafu]] 17:58, 16 February 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
::: Only one of each. One exception is that you give up a paragon path to extend your heroic tier multiclassing, but that's the only exception right now. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 19:28, 9 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::: After-note: NPC classes no longer exist. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 19:29, 9 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== questions ==<br />
<br />
i dont get some things:<br />
:1. wizard. daily spells: u r supposed to begin knowing two daily spells and each time u gain a level that lets u select a daily spell, u choose two daily spells to add to spellbook. fine. now, what happens when u get to replace a daily power? do u learn two new powers from the new level or do u replace any two daily powers u had with two daily powers of ur current level? or something else entirely?<br />
:2. related to 1, what happens when u get ur paragon daily spell at level 20? do u just add it to spellbook or is it known internally like encounter powers? and if u add it to spellbook, do u add another power or ur level or lower as per choosing two daily spells when u learn get to choose new daily spell?<br />
:3. this is more of a bitch about the classes in general: why would paragon tier FORCE me to choose an 11th level encounter power i will be stuck with throughout my entire career as one of my (at most) 4 encounter powers? these are the powers i use most of all. each encounter (usually) starts witht he firing off of encounter powers and i get stuck at level 20+ with a sucky paragon 11th level encounter power which i can never replace and must use.<br />
:4. the paragon path warmage has the lovely daily power "closing spell" which does 3d10 +int mod damage and an additional 5d10 damage if this is the last daily power of the day. very nice and useful. now, the archmage epic path lets u choose 1 daily power to use as an encounter spell at level 30. a few questions arise: 1. what happens if i choose "closing spell" as this power? under what conditions would i get the additional 5d10 damage? 2. would this daily spell take up one of my encounter power slots of daily spells slots, meaning, say i chose daily power X to be an encounter spell (remember, i am level 30). do i get to use power X every encounter but in addition i can use only 3 other daily powers and 4 other encounter powers or can i use 4 daily powers, power X every encounter and another 3 encounter powers? how would that work? plus, if an archmage chooses to be able to cast "closing spell" twice daily, and it is the last daily spell he has left, does he gain the additional 5d10 for both castings or just the second one?<br />
:5. when u attack with an area spell which requires u make an attack, do u make one attack roll which is compared to the relevant defenses of those in the area or do u make an attack roll for each creature in the area?<br />
<br />
:Well, for starters, this isn't a forum, proper spelling is requested, as it's not too hard. Also, sign your posts.<br />
**1. You would take two new spells if you wanted to. If not, pick one, replace, and then you're good. If not pick two, replace two. Simple.<br />
**2. As you can't get any other daily spells from the Paragon tier, you only gain that single spell. There are no level 20 spells.<br />
**3. The book, if you would read it before posting, italicizes to make it more apparent, "All the powers and features you gain from your paragon path come ''in addition'' to your class powers and features, not instead of them."<br />
**4. You answered your own question. It's no longer a daily power if you take it as an Archmage, thus you can never gain the +5d10.<br />
**5. Again, read the book. You make an attack roll for each creature in the area, and one damage roll.--[[User:Taritus|Taritus]] 08:02, 21 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:: <br />
**1. that clarifies it.<br />
**2. i thought perhaps that level or lower, as is customary when choosing new daily spells. lower in this instance since, as u said, there are no 20th level daily spells.<br />
**3. i know that it is supposed to come in addition but! in addition to what?! what is the number supposed to be without it? when going over the character advancement table, i noticed that at level 11, u gain, and i quote "paragon path features; gain 1 paragon path encounter attack power; gain 1 feat". there is no mention of gaining a "regular" encounter power whereas in the column of total powers known, u seem to gain an encounter power and since every time one of the numbers for encounter, daily or utility powers go up u also get a corresponding mention in the powers and features column ("gain one encounter attack power" for example) i had assumed i was fuzzy on something. by the way, the same thing applies to the 12th level utility power. the number for utility power goes up one, the powers and features column states u gain one paragon path utility power and there is NO mention of a gained "regular" utility power. same for level 20 when u gain a paragon daily attack spell. i gather from ur comments that, well, 1 encounter, daily and utility powers of the 4/4/7 i have at level 30, come from paragon path and another utility comes from epic destiny. as i said, this part is me bitching about it. seems i would rather have my own choice of powers and not get stuck at level 27 with an 11th level encounter attack power that i cant replace or retrain.<br />
**4. ok.<br />
**5. i was, indeed, to lazy to look for that part in the entire book. thanks.<br />
<br />
<br />
::now that i read the character advancement table again and more closely, there is nothing to prevent me from replacing an encounter or daily power when the table says i can replace said power. one cannot retrain paragon path powers but i did not find anything that prohibits replacing them. do u know of any such thing?<br />
<br />
:::well, how about this: a 30th level archmage chooses "shape magic" to be his daily spell to be made an encounter spell (archspell feature). this means the archmage can recharge ALL his powers after an encounter and, had he been a warmage in paragon path, can use "closing spell" twice as his last daily spell per encounter thus making him a literal killing machine. i am still trying to choose the daily spell that can be used twice daily for the archmage. suggestions? well, that choice can be made daily so is very flexible.<br />
<br />
::::Your formatting makes this very difficult to read... Oh well. Again, paragon powers are gained in addition to normal powers. Never when you gain a paragon power is there an asterisk marking that you must replace a power. You replace an encounter power at level 10, keeping you at 3, and gain an extra at level 11, increasing it to 4. If as an archmage you take a Daily power as an Encounter power, it is an encounter power, and thus any effects mentioning a daily power to not apply to it. Encounter power effects, however do.--[[User:Taritus|Taritus]] 09:28, 21 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::: thought as much. what say u about the archmage loophole?<br />
<br />
::::::It doesn't exist. Epic Destiny powers lack power sources, and Shape Magic says one arcane power. Arcane referring to the power source. Plus, encounter powers may only be used during encounters, and only once during each encounter, so no getting all your powers back. Though if you're talking about only regaining Closing Spell, and using it twice to get the +5d10 bonus you must have used all your real Daily powers, even though Closing Spell isn't a Daily power anymore. Throw out all your Dailies at the beginning of the session, then lay waste with Closing Spell. Yeah, that works.--[[User:Taritus|Taritus]] 10:30, 21 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::i meant making "shape magic" my encounter spell. "archspell" seems to allow it since it is a daily spell. and u can, according to my understanding, use encounter spells outside of encounters (encounter spell is a term refering to a power which can be recherged after a 5 minute rest. it is not, as i c it, a term refering to when u can use it). u just need to rest 5 minutes after using it but given that u have at most 4 daily spells plus 7 utility daily spells u will just need 11 times 5 minutes recharging all your daily powers. an hour say. not a short time but definitely useable. <br />
<br />
:::::::then, using this power during an actual encounter, after having spent all your daily spells except for "closing spell", u can use "closing spell" once as a killer and then regain it using "shape magic" as an encounter spell and use it again as a killer.<br />
<br />
::::::::Again, it helps to read. Quoth PHB: '''Encounter Powers''' An encounter power can be used once per encounter. You need to take a short rest (page 263) before you can use one again. Encounter powers produce more powerful, more dramatic effects than at-will powers. If you’re a martial character, they are exploits you’ve practiced extensively but can pull off only once in a while. If you’re an arcane or divine character, these are spells or prayers of such power that they take time to re-form in your mind after you unleash their magic energy.--[[User:Taritus|Taritus]] 11:30, 21 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::::You can't make ''shape magic'' your encounter spell, because only daily spells qualify. ''Shape magic'' is not a spell because it doesn't have the "arcane" keyword. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 11:32, 21 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::::::::Oh, didn't catch that.--[[User:Taritus|Taritus]] 11:38, 21 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::::::::: encounter spells arent used only in encounters. that is a ridiculous notion. else i would keep grasshoppers in my backpack, pull one out each time i would wish to use an encounter power and have an "encounter" recognized with the grasshopper as enemy and blast the grasshopper (where, of course, i put grasshopper where i would like to blast). clearly this is ridiculous. or maybe just tell the DM "i suspect there are enemies there and i use an ancounter power". in general, encounter powers are used in what is properly called "encounters" meaning with enemies and such. but at the essence, "encounter" isnt well defined and as i c it, an encounter power can be used whenever, but requires 5 minutes of rest afterwards to regain it (and other encounter powers).<br />
<br />
:::::::::::: perhaps i should remind you that daily spells arent "daily". you can, in fact, cast more than one daily spell in some day (though not every day). recall that daily spells are regained after an extended rest which means that u can regain ur daily spells every 18 hours. 16 if u r eladrin. in short, spells are clasified, in my proudful humble opinion, according to the shortest time u can regain them: for at will powers it is practically no time at all, for encounter powers it is 5 minutes and for daily spells it is 18 hours.<br />
<br />
:::::::::::: also, reading "closing spell" more closely, it states that if u dont have any OTHER daily spells, u get an additional 5d10 of damage. so if u indeed choose it twice per day as an archmage feature, u would indeed be able to use it twice and with the additional 5d10 of damage on both times. i do apologize for format if i am indeed not using it properly as u suggested earlier.<br />
<br />
::::::::::::: or not LOL i dont know anymore....(that is meant for the "closing spell" remark. not the encounter power debate).<br />
<br />
:::::::::::::: ''Closing spell'' + spell recall is questionable whether the first use of the spell deals the extra 5d10 damage. The ''closing spell'' + archspell combo, however, looks a bit more valid. Given that it can't be pulled off until 30th level, I'd allow it, and it looks to be a worth while selection especially when you compare it to ''meteor swarm''. Note that ''meteor swarm'' affects all creatures, where ''closing spell'' only affects enemies. I suggest putting them both in [[4e Optimized Character Builds]]. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 13:18, 21 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::::::::::no. u cant use "shape magic" after using "closing spell" witht he additional 5d10 damage since "closing spell" requires u have no other daily powers. it does not say "no other daily arcane powers". "shape magic" is a daily power. hence it cannot be available.</div>No problemhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:4e_Homebrew&diff=277374Talk:4e Homebrew2008-08-23T19:16:15Z<p>No problem: </p>
<hr />
<div>==4e SRD==<br />
Will there be any material of the kind put up on this wiki? [[User:Noname|Noname]] 11:08, 1 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:I think so, but then I can't really say. However, I will note that the 4e SRD will be quite different from the 3.5e one. The 4e SRD will essentially give out page numbers and nothing else. — [[User:OptimizationFanatic|OptimizationFanatic]] <small>([[User talk:OptimizationFanatic|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/OptimizationFanatic|contrib]])</small> 14:27, 1 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::I believe that the 4e SRD will give you information to construct 4e items. That is, it will be a design guide. For example, what does a striker look like, or how powerful should a 5th level power be. That is, the rules behind the rules. However, we don't know that yet. I may be wrong. --[[User:Dmilewski|Dmilewski]] 06:58, 2 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::[http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/SRD.pdf The SRD] isn't even that anymore. Now it's... (brace yourselves) a list of terms that people are allowed to use for homebrew or GSL publishing. Not even page numbers. *sighs* Oh, and nobody's allowed to host it except for WotC. — [[User:OptimizationFanatic|OptimizationFanatic]] <small>([[User talk:OptimizationFanatic|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/OptimizationFanatic|contrib]])</small> 19:31, 21 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::Oh well... I have made a [[4e Glossary (4e Other)|glossary]] for "SRD" linking... --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 10:33, 22 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== Monsters and NPCs ==<br />
<br />
WotC is (further) blurring the lines between monsters and NPCs. I think the two pages should be combined. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 19:38, 9 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:Agree. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 23:20, 3 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== Quality Control ==<br />
<br />
I feel that much of the material currently being added to the 4e section of D&D Wiki is less than desirable. What are everyone else's thoughts on this? It feels like the start of the revised third edition section again &mdash; a lot of garbage being added which is barely formatted. Does anyone else even think this is an issue? If so, anyone have some good ideas as to how we can correct this problem? Don't get me wrong though, some great things are being added. One I have seen is the [[Aasimar (4e Race)]]. Also, if anyone is interested, [{{SERVER}}{{localurl:Special:Recentchangeslinked/Category:4e}} here] is the RC for 4e. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 23:19, 3 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:I agree, though I am still getting a handle on 4e formatting. The fact I'm not "upgrading" to D&D Vista aside, the formatting drives me up the wall. Once I have a better handle on what everything means, I can chip in my part. Until then I'll try and just focus on removing obvious dead trash entries. -- [[User:Eiji|Eiji]] 23:28, 3 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::What is really getting me is things that are becoming standard in the revised third edition section, such as templates for the breadcrumb, forms for adding new information, SMW information present with spells, races, etc, dpl2's instead of dpl's, and things like that, have yet to be implemented into the "''new''" 4e section. I feel that not only do we need to work on the actual content of this section, we also need to work on the structure of this section. Even things like categories, which should have been discussed and decided on earlier, are a complete mess. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 23:40, 3 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::Agreed on all points. I'm still trying to get a handle on the formats, too. I think structure/navigation should be handled first, then we can tackle the format of the individual pages. One issue at a time. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 23:46, 3 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::Change that. Navigation, then categories, then individual page layouts. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 23:48, 3 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::::Here is what I think we need to work on (not necessarily in this order): Navigation, categories, individual page layouts, adding new information (Forms or preloads? Where can we use which?), creating templates, and content control (I feel that things with little information, or information that is very unbalanced should be discussed for deletion &mdash; via [[Template:Delete]]). Thoughts? --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 00:03, 4 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::::I aggree, although I think we need to add templates and set up a standard format for everything before we can inprove individual pages. Also, could we add the 4e homebrew section to the sidebar thing (with the links to the various sections). --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 04:34, 4 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::We really need good templates. The hand formatting is already driving me nuts.--[[User:Dmilewski|Dmilewski]] 08:09, 4 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::::::I completely agree. Dmilewski, do you think you would have time to help a bit? Maybe, if you would not mind, you could work on the breadcrumbs... Also, Sledged, do you think you would have some time to start working on templates (your damn good at them ''':)'''). I think I'll start on trying to work out some forms for adding things (I want to learn them better), and would anyone else like to help? If so I can try to help you find a job, or if you know what you want to do please post it here so everyone knows what everyones going to try to do. Thanks! --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 15:05, 6 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::::Already workin' on them. The monster stat blocks and power stat blocks are going to be the problem ones, but I just have to modify the CSS a bit for the class and racial traits templates. Time is a bit limited for me right now, otherwise I would have had them done within first week 4e was released. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 15:37, 6 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== 4e: ==<br />
<br />
in damage, what is [W]? {{unsigned|No problem|2008-07-31 05:56}}<br />
<br />
:It's the weapon's damage. So 1[W] is 1d8 for a longsword, 2d6 for a maul, and 1d4 for an unarmed strike. 2[W] is 2d8, 4d6, and 2d4 for those same weapons respectively. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 09:26, 31 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::ok. another question. after reading, i am not certain what is the deal with disrupting powers (mostly spells but powers in general). i gathered if someone uses an area or range spell, he is vulnerable to an opportunity attack. however, i did not c it written explicitly whether a hit disrupts the power or spell and whether it is even possible to disrupt a power or spell (as was specifically addressed in 3.5 with the concentration check and all that). help anyone? if u dont wish to write the answer, just refer me to the relevant page in which book. tnx in advance.<br />
<br />
:::AFAIK, an OA doesn't do anything except a basic attack. There is no way to disrupt a power, save an immediate interrupt power.<br />
<br />
::::where have u seen anything like that? i have seen immediate interrupts or reactions which help u move away from range or something similar but not something that actually disrupts the use of the power (and i mean direct interruption. by direct i mean something that prevents the power. by indirect, i mean something that takes u out of power's range thus foiling the power but not actually disrupting it as in 3.5). even for ranged attacks by bow, it would seem an attack could be made against the bow string or something to that effect.</div>No problemhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:4e_Homebrew&diff=277359Talk:4e Homebrew2008-08-23T18:03:55Z<p>No problem: </p>
<hr />
<div>==4e SRD==<br />
Will there be any material of the kind put up on this wiki? [[User:Noname|Noname]] 11:08, 1 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:I think so, but then I can't really say. However, I will note that the 4e SRD will be quite different from the 3.5e one. The 4e SRD will essentially give out page numbers and nothing else. — [[User:OptimizationFanatic|OptimizationFanatic]] <small>([[User talk:OptimizationFanatic|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/OptimizationFanatic|contrib]])</small> 14:27, 1 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::I believe that the 4e SRD will give you information to construct 4e items. That is, it will be a design guide. For example, what does a striker look like, or how powerful should a 5th level power be. That is, the rules behind the rules. However, we don't know that yet. I may be wrong. --[[User:Dmilewski|Dmilewski]] 06:58, 2 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::[http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/SRD.pdf The SRD] isn't even that anymore. Now it's... (brace yourselves) a list of terms that people are allowed to use for homebrew or GSL publishing. Not even page numbers. *sighs* Oh, and nobody's allowed to host it except for WotC. — [[User:OptimizationFanatic|OptimizationFanatic]] <small>([[User talk:OptimizationFanatic|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/OptimizationFanatic|contrib]])</small> 19:31, 21 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::Oh well... I have made a [[4e Glossary (4e Other)|glossary]] for "SRD" linking... --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 10:33, 22 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== Monsters and NPCs ==<br />
<br />
WotC is (further) blurring the lines between monsters and NPCs. I think the two pages should be combined. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 19:38, 9 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:Agree. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 23:20, 3 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== Quality Control ==<br />
<br />
I feel that much of the material currently being added to the 4e section of D&D Wiki is less than desirable. What are everyone else's thoughts on this? It feels like the start of the revised third edition section again &mdash; a lot of garbage being added which is barely formatted. Does anyone else even think this is an issue? If so, anyone have some good ideas as to how we can correct this problem? Don't get me wrong though, some great things are being added. One I have seen is the [[Aasimar (4e Race)]]. Also, if anyone is interested, [{{SERVER}}{{localurl:Special:Recentchangeslinked/Category:4e}} here] is the RC for 4e. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 23:19, 3 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:I agree, though I am still getting a handle on 4e formatting. The fact I'm not "upgrading" to D&D Vista aside, the formatting drives me up the wall. Once I have a better handle on what everything means, I can chip in my part. Until then I'll try and just focus on removing obvious dead trash entries. -- [[User:Eiji|Eiji]] 23:28, 3 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::What is really getting me is things that are becoming standard in the revised third edition section, such as templates for the breadcrumb, forms for adding new information, SMW information present with spells, races, etc, dpl2's instead of dpl's, and things like that, have yet to be implemented into the "''new''" 4e section. I feel that not only do we need to work on the actual content of this section, we also need to work on the structure of this section. Even things like categories, which should have been discussed and decided on earlier, are a complete mess. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 23:40, 3 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::Agreed on all points. I'm still trying to get a handle on the formats, too. I think structure/navigation should be handled first, then we can tackle the format of the individual pages. One issue at a time. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 23:46, 3 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::Change that. Navigation, then categories, then individual page layouts. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 23:48, 3 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::::Here is what I think we need to work on (not necessarily in this order): Navigation, categories, individual page layouts, adding new information (Forms or preloads? Where can we use which?), creating templates, and content control (I feel that things with little information, or information that is very unbalanced should be discussed for deletion &mdash; via [[Template:Delete]]). Thoughts? --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 00:03, 4 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::::I aggree, although I think we need to add templates and set up a standard format for everything before we can inprove individual pages. Also, could we add the 4e homebrew section to the sidebar thing (with the links to the various sections). --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 04:34, 4 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::We really need good templates. The hand formatting is already driving me nuts.--[[User:Dmilewski|Dmilewski]] 08:09, 4 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::::::I completely agree. Dmilewski, do you think you would have time to help a bit? Maybe, if you would not mind, you could work on the breadcrumbs... Also, Sledged, do you think you would have some time to start working on templates (your damn good at them ''':)'''). I think I'll start on trying to work out some forms for adding things (I want to learn them better), and would anyone else like to help? If so I can try to help you find a job, or if you know what you want to do please post it here so everyone knows what everyones going to try to do. Thanks! --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 15:05, 6 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::::Already workin' on them. The monster stat blocks and power stat blocks are going to be the problem ones, but I just have to modify the CSS a bit for the class and racial traits templates. Time is a bit limited for me right now, otherwise I would have had them done within first week 4e was released. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 15:37, 6 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== 4e: ==<br />
<br />
in damage, what is [W]? {{unsigned|No problem|2008-07-31 05:56}}<br />
<br />
:It's the weapon's damage. So 1[W] is 1d8 for a longsword, 2d6 for a maul, and 1d4 for an unarmed strike. 2[W] is 2d8, 4d6, and 2d4 for those same weapons respectively. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 09:26, 31 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::ok. another question. after reading, i am not certain what is the deal with disrupting powers (mostly spells but powers in general). i gathered if someone uses an area or range spell, he is vulnerable to an opportunity attack. however, i did not c it written explicitly whether a hit disrupts the power or spell and whether it is even possible to disrupt a power or spell (as was specifically addressed in 3.5 with the concentration check and all that). help anyone? if u dont wish to write the answer, just refer me to the relevant page in which book. tnx in advance.</div>No problemhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:4e_Homebrew&diff=277356Talk:4e Homebrew2008-08-23T18:03:28Z<p>No problem: </p>
<hr />
<div>==4e SRD==<br />
Will there be any material of the kind put up on this wiki? [[User:Noname|Noname]] 11:08, 1 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:I think so, but then I can't really say. However, I will note that the 4e SRD will be quite different from the 3.5e one. The 4e SRD will essentially give out page numbers and nothing else. — [[User:OptimizationFanatic|OptimizationFanatic]] <small>([[User talk:OptimizationFanatic|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/OptimizationFanatic|contrib]])</small> 14:27, 1 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::I believe that the 4e SRD will give you information to construct 4e items. That is, it will be a design guide. For example, what does a striker look like, or how powerful should a 5th level power be. That is, the rules behind the rules. However, we don't know that yet. I may be wrong. --[[User:Dmilewski|Dmilewski]] 06:58, 2 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::[http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/SRD.pdf The SRD] isn't even that anymore. Now it's... (brace yourselves) a list of terms that people are allowed to use for homebrew or GSL publishing. Not even page numbers. *sighs* Oh, and nobody's allowed to host it except for WotC. — [[User:OptimizationFanatic|OptimizationFanatic]] <small>([[User talk:OptimizationFanatic|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/OptimizationFanatic|contrib]])</small> 19:31, 21 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::Oh well... I have made a [[4e Glossary (4e Other)|glossary]] for "SRD" linking... --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 10:33, 22 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== Monsters and NPCs ==<br />
<br />
WotC is (further) blurring the lines between monsters and NPCs. I think the two pages should be combined. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 19:38, 9 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:Agree. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 23:20, 3 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== Quality Control ==<br />
<br />
I feel that much of the material currently being added to the 4e section of D&D Wiki is less than desirable. What are everyone else's thoughts on this? It feels like the start of the revised third edition section again &mdash; a lot of garbage being added which is barely formatted. Does anyone else even think this is an issue? If so, anyone have some good ideas as to how we can correct this problem? Don't get me wrong though, some great things are being added. One I have seen is the [[Aasimar (4e Race)]]. Also, if anyone is interested, [{{SERVER}}{{localurl:Special:Recentchangeslinked/Category:4e}} here] is the RC for 4e. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 23:19, 3 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:I agree, though I am still getting a handle on 4e formatting. The fact I'm not "upgrading" to D&D Vista aside, the formatting drives me up the wall. Once I have a better handle on what everything means, I can chip in my part. Until then I'll try and just focus on removing obvious dead trash entries. -- [[User:Eiji|Eiji]] 23:28, 3 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::What is really getting me is things that are becoming standard in the revised third edition section, such as templates for the breadcrumb, forms for adding new information, SMW information present with spells, races, etc, dpl2's instead of dpl's, and things like that, have yet to be implemented into the "''new''" 4e section. I feel that not only do we need to work on the actual content of this section, we also need to work on the structure of this section. Even things like categories, which should have been discussed and decided on earlier, are a complete mess. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 23:40, 3 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::Agreed on all points. I'm still trying to get a handle on the formats, too. I think structure/navigation should be handled first, then we can tackle the format of the individual pages. One issue at a time. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 23:46, 3 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::Change that. Navigation, then categories, then individual page layouts. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 23:48, 3 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::::Here is what I think we need to work on (not necessarily in this order): Navigation, categories, individual page layouts, adding new information (Forms or preloads? Where can we use which?), creating templates, and content control (I feel that things with little information, or information that is very unbalanced should be discussed for deletion &mdash; via [[Template:Delete]]). Thoughts? --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 00:03, 4 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::::I aggree, although I think we need to add templates and set up a standard format for everything before we can inprove individual pages. Also, could we add the 4e homebrew section to the sidebar thing (with the links to the various sections). --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 04:34, 4 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::We really need good templates. The hand formatting is already driving me nuts.--[[User:Dmilewski|Dmilewski]] 08:09, 4 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::::::I completely agree. Dmilewski, do you think you would have time to help a bit? Maybe, if you would not mind, you could work on the breadcrumbs... Also, Sledged, do you think you would have some time to start working on templates (your damn good at them ''':)'''). I think I'll start on trying to work out some forms for adding things (I want to learn them better), and would anyone else like to help? If so I can try to help you find a job, or if you know what you want to do please post it here so everyone knows what everyones going to try to do. Thanks! --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 15:05, 6 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::::Already workin' on them. The monster stat blocks and power stat blocks are going to be the problem ones, but I just have to modify the CSS a bit for the class and racial traits templates. Time is a bit limited for me right now, otherwise I would have had them done within first week 4e was released. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 15:37, 6 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== 4e: ==<br />
<br />
in damage, what is [W]? {{unsigned|No problem|2008-07-31 05:56}}<br />
<br />
:It's the weapon's damage. So 1[W] is 1d8 for a longsword, 2d6 for a maul, and 1d4 for an unarmed strike. 2[W] is 2d8, 4d6, and 2d4 for those same weapons respectively. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 09:26, 31 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
ok. another question. after reading, i am not certain what is the deal with disrupting powers (mostly spells but powers in general). i gathered if someone uses an area or range spell, he is vulnerable to an opportunity attack. however, i did not c it written explicitly whether a hit disrupts the power or spell and whether it is even possible to disrupt a power or spell (as was specifically addressed in 3.5 with the concentration check and all that). help anyone? if u dont wish to write the answer, just refer me to the relevant page in which book. tnx in advance.</div>No problemhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:4e_Classes,_Paragon_Paths,_and_Epic_Destinies&diff=276864Talk:4e Classes, Paragon Paths, and Epic Destinies2008-08-21T18:59:54Z<p>No problem: </p>
<hr />
<div>== All 4e Base Classes ==<br />
<br />
Whats wrong with the "all 4e base classes"? It keeps coming up with an error. Can somebody sort it please? --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 09:10, 20 January 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
:Someone must have made the dpl incorrect or somesuch... The problem is that the page is too large for it to load correctly. I will have [[User:Blue Dragon|Blue Dragon]] take a look. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 10:18, 28 January 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
== Organization ==<br />
<br />
Shouldn't it be Class-Paragon Path-Epic Destiny-NPC instead of duplicating 3e? Regards--[[User:Pwsnafu|Pwsnafu]] 18:29, 6 February 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
:Yes. Incidentally, are epic destinies just a followon from paragon paths or a seperate thing entirely? {{Unsigned|Sam Kay|06:54, 15 February 2008 (MST)}}<br />
<br />
::My understanding is that you choose a Paragon Path at level 11 and an Epic Destiny at level 21. If you look at the Christmas present (the Elf racial entry) the racial feat has a requirement "Heroic Tier", so it doesn't work in Paragon or Epic. I think this to prevent the "epic is too complicated" criticism of 3E. So my understanding is that they are separate things. What we don't know is whether you can multiclass a Paragon Path. Regards --[[User:Pwsnafu|Pwsnafu]] 17:58, 16 February 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
::: Only one of each. One exception is that you give up a paragon path to extend your heroic tier multiclassing, but that's the only exception right now. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 19:28, 9 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::: After-note: NPC classes no longer exist. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 19:29, 9 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== questions ==<br />
<br />
i dont get some things:<br />
:1. wizard. daily spells: u r supposed to begin knowing two daily spells and each time u gain a level that lets u select a daily spell, u choose two daily spells to add to spellbook. fine. now, what happens when u get to replace a daily power? do u learn two new powers from the new level or do u replace any two daily powers u had with two daily powers of ur current level? or something else entirely?<br />
:2. related to 1, what happens when u get ur paragon daily spell at level 20? do u just add it to spellbook or is it known internally like encounter powers? and if u add it to spellbook, do u add another power or ur level or lower as per choosing two daily spells when u learn get to choose new daily spell?<br />
:3. this is more of a bitch about the classes in general: why would paragon tier FORCE me to choose an 11th level encounter power i will be stuck with throughout my entire career as one of my (at most) 4 encounter powers? these are the powers i use most of all. each encounter (usually) starts witht he firing off of encounter powers and i get stuck at level 20+ with a sucky paragon 11th level encounter power which i can never replace and must use.<br />
:4. the paragon path warmage has the lovely daily power "closing spell" which does 3d10 +int mod damage and an additional 5d10 damage if this is the last daily power of the day. very nice and useful. now, the archmage epic path lets u choose 1 daily power to use as an encounter spell at level 30. a few questions arise: 1. what happens if i choose "closing spell" as this power? under what conditions would i get the additional 5d10 damage? 2. would this daily spell take up one of my encounter power slots of daily spells slots, meaning, say i chose daily power X to be an encounter spell (remember, i am level 30). do i get to use power X every encounter but in addition i can use only 3 other daily powers and 4 other encounter powers or can i use 4 daily powers, power X every encounter and another 3 encounter powers? how would that work? plus, if an archmage chooses to be able to cast "closing spell" twice daily, and it is the last daily spell he has left, does he gain the additional 5d10 for both castings or just the second one?<br />
:5. when u attack with an area spell which requires u make an attack, do u make one attack roll which is compared to the relevant defenses of those in the area or do u make an attack roll for each creature in the area?<br />
<br />
:Well, for starters, this isn't a forum, proper spelling is requested, as it's not too hard. Also, sign your posts.<br />
**1. You would take two new spells if you wanted to. If not, pick one, replace, and then you're good. If not pick two, replace two. Simple.<br />
**2. As you can't get any other daily spells from the Paragon tier, you only gain that single spell. There are no level 20 spells.<br />
**3. The book, if you would read it before posting, italicizes to make it more apparent, "All the powers and features you gain from your paragon path come ''in addition'' to your class powers and features, not instead of them."<br />
**4. You answered your own question. It's no longer a daily power if you take it as an Archmage, thus you can never gain the +5d10.<br />
**5. Again, read the book. You make an attack roll for each creature in the area, and one damage roll.--[[User:Taritus|Taritus]] 08:02, 21 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:: <br />
**1. that clarifies it.<br />
**2. i thought perhaps that level or lower, as is customary when choosing new daily spells. lower in this instance since, as u said, there are no 20th level daily spells.<br />
**3. i know that it is supposed to come in addition but! in addition to what?! what is the number supposed to be without it? when going over the character advancement table, i noticed that at level 11, u gain, and i quote "paragon path features; gain 1 paragon path encounter attack power; gain 1 feat". there is no mention of gaining a "regular" encounter power whereas in the column of total powers known, u seem to gain an encounter power and since every time one of the numbers for encounter, daily or utility powers go up u also get a corresponding mention in the powers and features column ("gain one encounter attack power" for example) i had assumed i was fuzzy on something. by the way, the same thing applies to the 12th level utility power. the number for utility power goes up one, the powers and features column states u gain one paragon path utility power and there is NO mention of a gained "regular" utility power. same for level 20 when u gain a paragon daily attack spell. i gather from ur comments that, well, 1 encounter, daily and utility powers of the 4/4/7 i have at level 30, come from paragon path and another utility comes from epic destiny. as i said, this part is me bitching about it. seems i would rather have my own choice of powers and not get stuck at level 27 with an 11th level encounter attack power that i cant replace or retrain.<br />
**4. ok.<br />
**5. i was, indeed, to lazy to look for that part in the entire book. thanks.<br />
<br />
<br />
::now that i read the character advancement table again and more closely, there is nothing to prevent me from replacing an encounter or daily power when the table says i can replace said power. one cannot retrain paragon path powers but i did not find anything that prohibits replacing them. do u know of any such thing?<br />
<br />
:::well, how about this: a 30th level archmage chooses "shape magic" to be his daily spell to be made an encounter spell (archspell feature). this means the archmage can recharge ALL his powers after an encounter and, had he been a warmage in paragon path, can use "closing spell" twice as his last daily spell per encounter thus making him a literal killing machine. i am still trying to choose the daily spell that can be used twice daily for the archmage. suggestions? well, that choice can be made daily so is very flexible.<br />
<br />
::::Your formatting makes this very difficult to read... Oh well. Again, paragon powers are gained in addition to normal powers. Never when you gain a paragon power is there an asterisk marking that you must replace a power. You replace an encounter power at level 10, keeping you at 3, and gain an extra at level 11, increasing it to 4. If as an archmage you take a Daily power as an Encounter power, it is an encounter power, and thus any effects mentioning a daily power to not apply to it. Encounter power effects, however do.--[[User:Taritus|Taritus]] 09:28, 21 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::: thought as much. what say u about the archmage loophole?<br />
<br />
::::::It doesn't exist. Epic Destiny powers lack power sources, and Shape Magic says one arcane power. Arcane referring to the power source. Plus, encounter powers may only be used during encounters, and only once during each encounter, so no getting all your powers back. Though if you're talking about only regaining Closing Spell, and using it twice to get the +5d10 bonus you must have used all your real Daily powers, even though Closing Spell isn't a Daily power anymore. Throw out all your Dailies at the beginning of the session, then lay waste with Closing Spell. Yeah, that works.--[[User:Taritus|Taritus]] 10:30, 21 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::i meant making "shape magic" my encounter spell. "archspell" seems to allow it since it is a daily spell. and u can, according to my understanding, use encounter spells outside of encounters (encounter spell is a term refering to a power which can be recherged after a 5 minute rest. it is not, as i c it, a term refering to when u can use it). u just need to rest 5 minutes after using it but given that u have at most 4 daily spells plus 7 utility daily spells u will just need 11 times 5 minutes recharging all your daily powers. an hour say. not a short time but definitely useable. <br />
<br />
:::::::then, using this power during an actual encounter, after having spent all your daily spells except for "closing spell", u can use "closing spell" once as a killer and then regain it using "shape magic" as an encounter spell and use it again as a killer.<br />
<br />
::::::::Again, it helps to read. Quoth PHB: '''Encounter Powers''' An encounter power can be used once per encounter. You need to take a short rest (page 263) before you can use one again. Encounter powers produce more powerful, more dramatic effects than at-will powers. If you’re a martial character, they are exploits you’ve practiced extensively but can pull off only once in a while. If you’re an arcane or divine character, these are spells or prayers of such power that they take time to re-form in your mind after you unleash their magic energy.--[[User:Taritus|Taritus]] 11:30, 21 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::::You can't make ''shape magic'' your encounter spell, because only daily spells qualify. ''Shape magic'' is not a spell because it doesn't have the "arcane" keyword. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 11:32, 21 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::::::::Oh, didn't catch that.--[[User:Taritus|Taritus]] 11:38, 21 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::::::::: encounter spells arent used only in encounters. that is a ridiculous notion. else i would keep grasshoppers in my backpack, pull one out each time i would wish to use an encounter power and have an "encounter" recognized with the grasshopper as enemy and blast the grasshopper (where, of course, i put grasshopper where i would like to blast). clearly this is ridiculous. or maybe just tell the DM "i suspect there are enemies there and i use an ancounter power". in general, encounter powers are used in what is properly called "encounters" meaning with enemies and such. but at the essence, "encounter" isnt well defined and as i c it, an encounter power can be used whenever, but requires 5 minutes of rest afterwards to regain it (and other encounter powers).<br />
<br />
:::::::::::: perhaps i should remind you that daily spells arent "daily". you can, in fact, cast more than one daily spell in some day (though not every day). recall that daily spells are regained after an extended rest which means that u can regain ur daily spells every 18 hours. 16 if u r eladrin. in short, spells are clasified, in my proudful humble opinion, according to the shortest time u can regain them: for at will powers it is practically no time at all, for encounter powers it is 5 minutes and for daily spells it is 18 hours.<br />
<br />
:::::::::::: also, reading "closing spell" more closely, it states that if u dont have any OTHER daily spells, u get an additional 5d10 of damage. so if u indeed choose it twice per day as an archmage feature, u would indeed be able to use it twice and with the additional 5d10 of damage on both times. i do apologize for format if i am indeed not using it properly as u suggested earlier.<br />
<br />
::::::::::::: or not LOL i dont know anymore....(that is meant for the "closing spell" remark. not the encounter power debate).</div>No problemhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:4e_Classes,_Paragon_Paths,_and_Epic_Destinies&diff=276863Talk:4e Classes, Paragon Paths, and Epic Destinies2008-08-21T18:58:48Z<p>No problem: </p>
<hr />
<div>== All 4e Base Classes ==<br />
<br />
Whats wrong with the "all 4e base classes"? It keeps coming up with an error. Can somebody sort it please? --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 09:10, 20 January 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
:Someone must have made the dpl incorrect or somesuch... The problem is that the page is too large for it to load correctly. I will have [[User:Blue Dragon|Blue Dragon]] take a look. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 10:18, 28 January 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
== Organization ==<br />
<br />
Shouldn't it be Class-Paragon Path-Epic Destiny-NPC instead of duplicating 3e? Regards--[[User:Pwsnafu|Pwsnafu]] 18:29, 6 February 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
:Yes. Incidentally, are epic destinies just a followon from paragon paths or a seperate thing entirely? {{Unsigned|Sam Kay|06:54, 15 February 2008 (MST)}}<br />
<br />
::My understanding is that you choose a Paragon Path at level 11 and an Epic Destiny at level 21. If you look at the Christmas present (the Elf racial entry) the racial feat has a requirement "Heroic Tier", so it doesn't work in Paragon or Epic. I think this to prevent the "epic is too complicated" criticism of 3E. So my understanding is that they are separate things. What we don't know is whether you can multiclass a Paragon Path. Regards --[[User:Pwsnafu|Pwsnafu]] 17:58, 16 February 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
::: Only one of each. One exception is that you give up a paragon path to extend your heroic tier multiclassing, but that's the only exception right now. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 19:28, 9 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::: After-note: NPC classes no longer exist. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 19:29, 9 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== questions ==<br />
<br />
i dont get some things:<br />
:1. wizard. daily spells: u r supposed to begin knowing two daily spells and each time u gain a level that lets u select a daily spell, u choose two daily spells to add to spellbook. fine. now, what happens when u get to replace a daily power? do u learn two new powers from the new level or do u replace any two daily powers u had with two daily powers of ur current level? or something else entirely?<br />
:2. related to 1, what happens when u get ur paragon daily spell at level 20? do u just add it to spellbook or is it known internally like encounter powers? and if u add it to spellbook, do u add another power or ur level or lower as per choosing two daily spells when u learn get to choose new daily spell?<br />
:3. this is more of a bitch about the classes in general: why would paragon tier FORCE me to choose an 11th level encounter power i will be stuck with throughout my entire career as one of my (at most) 4 encounter powers? these are the powers i use most of all. each encounter (usually) starts witht he firing off of encounter powers and i get stuck at level 20+ with a sucky paragon 11th level encounter power which i can never replace and must use.<br />
:4. the paragon path warmage has the lovely daily power "closing spell" which does 3d10 +int mod damage and an additional 5d10 damage if this is the last daily power of the day. very nice and useful. now, the archmage epic path lets u choose 1 daily power to use as an encounter spell at level 30. a few questions arise: 1. what happens if i choose "closing spell" as this power? under what conditions would i get the additional 5d10 damage? 2. would this daily spell take up one of my encounter power slots of daily spells slots, meaning, say i chose daily power X to be an encounter spell (remember, i am level 30). do i get to use power X every encounter but in addition i can use only 3 other daily powers and 4 other encounter powers or can i use 4 daily powers, power X every encounter and another 3 encounter powers? how would that work? plus, if an archmage chooses to be able to cast "closing spell" twice daily, and it is the last daily spell he has left, does he gain the additional 5d10 for both castings or just the second one?<br />
:5. when u attack with an area spell which requires u make an attack, do u make one attack roll which is compared to the relevant defenses of those in the area or do u make an attack roll for each creature in the area?<br />
<br />
:Well, for starters, this isn't a forum, proper spelling is requested, as it's not too hard. Also, sign your posts.<br />
**1. You would take two new spells if you wanted to. If not, pick one, replace, and then you're good. If not pick two, replace two. Simple.<br />
**2. As you can't get any other daily spells from the Paragon tier, you only gain that single spell. There are no level 20 spells.<br />
**3. The book, if you would read it before posting, italicizes to make it more apparent, "All the powers and features you gain from your paragon path come ''in addition'' to your class powers and features, not instead of them."<br />
**4. You answered your own question. It's no longer a daily power if you take it as an Archmage, thus you can never gain the +5d10.<br />
**5. Again, read the book. You make an attack roll for each creature in the area, and one damage roll.--[[User:Taritus|Taritus]] 08:02, 21 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:: <br />
**1. that clarifies it.<br />
**2. i thought perhaps that level or lower, as is customary when choosing new daily spells. lower in this instance since, as u said, there are no 20th level daily spells.<br />
**3. i know that it is supposed to come in addition but! in addition to what?! what is the number supposed to be without it? when going over the character advancement table, i noticed that at level 11, u gain, and i quote "paragon path features; gain 1 paragon path encounter attack power; gain 1 feat". there is no mention of gaining a "regular" encounter power whereas in the column of total powers known, u seem to gain an encounter power and since every time one of the numbers for encounter, daily or utility powers go up u also get a corresponding mention in the powers and features column ("gain one encounter attack power" for example) i had assumed i was fuzzy on something. by the way, the same thing applies to the 12th level utility power. the number for utility power goes up one, the powers and features column states u gain one paragon path utility power and there is NO mention of a gained "regular" utility power. same for level 20 when u gain a paragon daily attack spell. i gather from ur comments that, well, 1 encounter, daily and utility powers of the 4/4/7 i have at level 30, come from paragon path and another utility comes from epic destiny. as i said, this part is me bitching about it. seems i would rather have my own choice of powers and not get stuck at level 27 with an 11th level encounter attack power that i cant replace or retrain.<br />
**4. ok.<br />
**5. i was, indeed, to lazy to look for that part in the entire book. thanks.<br />
<br />
<br />
::now that i read the character advancement table again and more closely, there is nothing to prevent me from replacing an encounter or daily power when the table says i can replace said power. one cannot retrain paragon path powers but i did not find anything that prohibits replacing them. do u know of any such thing?<br />
<br />
:::well, how about this: a 30th level archmage chooses "shape magic" to be his daily spell to be made an encounter spell (archspell feature). this means the archmage can recharge ALL his powers after an encounter and, had he been a warmage in paragon path, can use "closing spell" twice as his last daily spell per encounter thus making him a literal killing machine. i am still trying to choose the daily spell that can be used twice daily for the archmage. suggestions? well, that choice can be made daily so is very flexible.<br />
<br />
::::Your formatting makes this very difficult to read... Oh well. Again, paragon powers are gained in addition to normal powers. Never when you gain a paragon power is there an asterisk marking that you must replace a power. You replace an encounter power at level 10, keeping you at 3, and gain an extra at level 11, increasing it to 4. If as an archmage you take a Daily power as an Encounter power, it is an encounter power, and thus any effects mentioning a daily power to not apply to it. Encounter power effects, however do.--[[User:Taritus|Taritus]] 09:28, 21 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::: thought as much. what say u about the archmage loophole?<br />
<br />
::::::It doesn't exist. Epic Destiny powers lack power sources, and Shape Magic says one arcane power. Arcane referring to the power source. Plus, encounter powers may only be used during encounters, and only once during each encounter, so no getting all your powers back. Though if you're talking about only regaining Closing Spell, and using it twice to get the +5d10 bonus you must have used all your real Daily powers, even though Closing Spell isn't a Daily power anymore. Throw out all your Dailies at the beginning of the session, then lay waste with Closing Spell. Yeah, that works.--[[User:Taritus|Taritus]] 10:30, 21 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::i meant making "shape magic" my encounter spell. "archspell" seems to allow it since it is a daily spell. and u can, according to my understanding, use encounter spells outside of encounters (encounter spell is a term refering to a power which can be recherged after a 5 minute rest. it is not, as i c it, a term refering to when u can use it). u just need to rest 5 minutes after using it but given that u have at most 4 daily spells plus 7 utility daily spells u will just need 11 times 5 minutes recharging all your daily powers. an hour say. not a short time but definitely useable. <br />
<br />
:::::::then, using this power during an actual encounter, after having spent all your daily spells except for "closing spell", u can use "closing spell" once as a killer and then regain it using "shape magic" as an encounter spell and use it again as a killer.<br />
<br />
::::::::Again, it helps to read. Quoth PHB: '''Encounter Powers''' An encounter power can be used once per encounter. You need to take a short rest (page 263) before you can use one again. Encounter powers produce more powerful, more dramatic effects than at-will powers. If you’re a martial character, they are exploits you’ve practiced extensively but can pull off only once in a while. If you’re an arcane or divine character, these are spells or prayers of such power that they take time to re-form in your mind after you unleash their magic energy.--[[User:Taritus|Taritus]] 11:30, 21 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::::You can't make ''shape magic'' your encounter spell, because only daily spells qualify. ''Shape magic'' is not a spell because it doesn't have the "arcane" keyword. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 11:32, 21 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::::::::Oh, didn't catch that.--[[User:Taritus|Taritus]] 11:38, 21 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::::::::: encounter spells arent used only in encounters. that is a ridiculous notion. else i would keep grasshoppers in my backpack, pull one out each time i would wish to use an encounter power and have an "encounter" recognized with the grasshopper as enemy and blast the grasshopper (where, of course, i put grasshopper where i would like to blast). clearly this is ridiculous. or maybe just tell the DM "i suspect there are enemies there and i use an ancounter power". in general, encounter powers are used in what is properly called "encounters" meaning with enemies and such. but at the essence, "encounter" isnt well defined and as i c it, an encounter power can be used whenever, but requires 5 minutes of rest afterwards to regain it (and other encounter powers).<br />
<br />
:::::::::::: perhaps i should remind you that daily spells arent "daily". you can, in fact, cast more than one daily spell in some day (though not every day). recall that daily spells are regained after an extended rest which means that u can regain ur daily spells every 18 hours. 16 if u r eladrin. in short, spells are clasified, in my proudful humble opinion, according to the shortest time u can regain them: for at will powers it is practically no time at all, for encounter powers it is 5 minutes and for daily spells it is 18 hours.<br />
<br />
:::::::::::: also, reading "closing spell" more closely, it states that if u dont have any OTHER daily spells, u get an additional 5d10 of damage. so if u indeed choose it twice per day as an archmage feature, u would indeed be able to use it twice and with the additional 5d10 of damage on both times. i do apologize for format if i am indeed not using it properly as u suggested earlier.<br />
<br />
::::::::::::: or not LOL i dont know anymore....</div>No problemhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:4e_Classes,_Paragon_Paths,_and_Epic_Destinies&diff=276862Talk:4e Classes, Paragon Paths, and Epic Destinies2008-08-21T18:55:54Z<p>No problem: </p>
<hr />
<div>== All 4e Base Classes ==<br />
<br />
Whats wrong with the "all 4e base classes"? It keeps coming up with an error. Can somebody sort it please? --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 09:10, 20 January 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
:Someone must have made the dpl incorrect or somesuch... The problem is that the page is too large for it to load correctly. I will have [[User:Blue Dragon|Blue Dragon]] take a look. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 10:18, 28 January 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
== Organization ==<br />
<br />
Shouldn't it be Class-Paragon Path-Epic Destiny-NPC instead of duplicating 3e? Regards--[[User:Pwsnafu|Pwsnafu]] 18:29, 6 February 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
:Yes. Incidentally, are epic destinies just a followon from paragon paths or a seperate thing entirely? {{Unsigned|Sam Kay|06:54, 15 February 2008 (MST)}}<br />
<br />
::My understanding is that you choose a Paragon Path at level 11 and an Epic Destiny at level 21. If you look at the Christmas present (the Elf racial entry) the racial feat has a requirement "Heroic Tier", so it doesn't work in Paragon or Epic. I think this to prevent the "epic is too complicated" criticism of 3E. So my understanding is that they are separate things. What we don't know is whether you can multiclass a Paragon Path. Regards --[[User:Pwsnafu|Pwsnafu]] 17:58, 16 February 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
::: Only one of each. One exception is that you give up a paragon path to extend your heroic tier multiclassing, but that's the only exception right now. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 19:28, 9 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::: After-note: NPC classes no longer exist. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 19:29, 9 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== questions ==<br />
<br />
i dont get some things:<br />
:1. wizard. daily spells: u r supposed to begin knowing two daily spells and each time u gain a level that lets u select a daily spell, u choose two daily spells to add to spellbook. fine. now, what happens when u get to replace a daily power? do u learn two new powers from the new level or do u replace any two daily powers u had with two daily powers of ur current level? or something else entirely?<br />
:2. related to 1, what happens when u get ur paragon daily spell at level 20? do u just add it to spellbook or is it known internally like encounter powers? and if u add it to spellbook, do u add another power or ur level or lower as per choosing two daily spells when u learn get to choose new daily spell?<br />
:3. this is more of a bitch about the classes in general: why would paragon tier FORCE me to choose an 11th level encounter power i will be stuck with throughout my entire career as one of my (at most) 4 encounter powers? these are the powers i use most of all. each encounter (usually) starts witht he firing off of encounter powers and i get stuck at level 20+ with a sucky paragon 11th level encounter power which i can never replace and must use.<br />
:4. the paragon path warmage has the lovely daily power "closing spell" which does 3d10 +int mod damage and an additional 5d10 damage if this is the last daily power of the day. very nice and useful. now, the archmage epic path lets u choose 1 daily power to use as an encounter spell at level 30. a few questions arise: 1. what happens if i choose "closing spell" as this power? under what conditions would i get the additional 5d10 damage? 2. would this daily spell take up one of my encounter power slots of daily spells slots, meaning, say i chose daily power X to be an encounter spell (remember, i am level 30). do i get to use power X every encounter but in addition i can use only 3 other daily powers and 4 other encounter powers or can i use 4 daily powers, power X every encounter and another 3 encounter powers? how would that work? plus, if an archmage chooses to be able to cast "closing spell" twice daily, and it is the last daily spell he has left, does he gain the additional 5d10 for both castings or just the second one?<br />
:5. when u attack with an area spell which requires u make an attack, do u make one attack roll which is compared to the relevant defenses of those in the area or do u make an attack roll for each creature in the area?<br />
<br />
:Well, for starters, this isn't a forum, proper spelling is requested, as it's not too hard. Also, sign your posts.<br />
**1. You would take two new spells if you wanted to. If not, pick one, replace, and then you're good. If not pick two, replace two. Simple.<br />
**2. As you can't get any other daily spells from the Paragon tier, you only gain that single spell. There are no level 20 spells.<br />
**3. The book, if you would read it before posting, italicizes to make it more apparent, "All the powers and features you gain from your paragon path come ''in addition'' to your class powers and features, not instead of them."<br />
**4. You answered your own question. It's no longer a daily power if you take it as an Archmage, thus you can never gain the +5d10.<br />
**5. Again, read the book. You make an attack roll for each creature in the area, and one damage roll.--[[User:Taritus|Taritus]] 08:02, 21 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:: <br />
**1. that clarifies it.<br />
**2. i thought perhaps that level or lower, as is customary when choosing new daily spells. lower in this instance since, as u said, there are no 20th level daily spells.<br />
**3. i know that it is supposed to come in addition but! in addition to what?! what is the number supposed to be without it? when going over the character advancement table, i noticed that at level 11, u gain, and i quote "paragon path features; gain 1 paragon path encounter attack power; gain 1 feat". there is no mention of gaining a "regular" encounter power whereas in the column of total powers known, u seem to gain an encounter power and since every time one of the numbers for encounter, daily or utility powers go up u also get a corresponding mention in the powers and features column ("gain one encounter attack power" for example) i had assumed i was fuzzy on something. by the way, the same thing applies to the 12th level utility power. the number for utility power goes up one, the powers and features column states u gain one paragon path utility power and there is NO mention of a gained "regular" utility power. same for level 20 when u gain a paragon daily attack spell. i gather from ur comments that, well, 1 encounter, daily and utility powers of the 4/4/7 i have at level 30, come from paragon path and another utility comes from epic destiny. as i said, this part is me bitching about it. seems i would rather have my own choice of powers and not get stuck at level 27 with an 11th level encounter attack power that i cant replace or retrain.<br />
**4. ok.<br />
**5. i was, indeed, to lazy to look for that part in the entire book. thanks.<br />
<br />
<br />
::now that i read the character advancement table again and more closely, there is nothing to prevent me from replacing an encounter or daily power when the table says i can replace said power. one cannot retrain paragon path powers but i did not find anything that prohibits replacing them. do u know of any such thing?<br />
<br />
:::well, how about this: a 30th level archmage chooses "shape magic" to be his daily spell to be made an encounter spell (archspell feature). this means the archmage can recharge ALL his powers after an encounter and, had he been a warmage in paragon path, can use "closing spell" twice as his last daily spell per encounter thus making him a literal killing machine. i am still trying to choose the daily spell that can be used twice daily for the archmage. suggestions? well, that choice can be made daily so is very flexible.<br />
<br />
::::Your formatting makes this very difficult to read... Oh well. Again, paragon powers are gained in addition to normal powers. Never when you gain a paragon power is there an asterisk marking that you must replace a power. You replace an encounter power at level 10, keeping you at 3, and gain an extra at level 11, increasing it to 4. If as an archmage you take a Daily power as an Encounter power, it is an encounter power, and thus any effects mentioning a daily power to not apply to it. Encounter power effects, however do.--[[User:Taritus|Taritus]] 09:28, 21 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::: thought as much. what say u about the archmage loophole?<br />
<br />
::::::It doesn't exist. Epic Destiny powers lack power sources, and Shape Magic says one arcane power. Arcane referring to the power source. Plus, encounter powers may only be used during encounters, and only once during each encounter, so no getting all your powers back. Though if you're talking about only regaining Closing Spell, and using it twice to get the +5d10 bonus you must have used all your real Daily powers, even though Closing Spell isn't a Daily power anymore. Throw out all your Dailies at the beginning of the session, then lay waste with Closing Spell. Yeah, that works.--[[User:Taritus|Taritus]] 10:30, 21 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::i meant making "shape magic" my encounter spell. "archspell" seems to allow it since it is a daily spell. and u can, according to my understanding, use encounter spells outside of encounters (encounter spell is a term refering to a power which can be recherged after a 5 minute rest. it is not, as i c it, a term refering to when u can use it). u just need to rest 5 minutes after using it but given that u have at most 4 daily spells plus 7 utility daily spells u will just need 11 times 5 minutes recharging all your daily powers. an hour say. not a short time but definitely useable. <br />
<br />
:::::::then, using this power during an actual encounter, after having spent all your daily spells except for "closing spell", u can use "closing spell" once as a killer and then regain it using "shape magic" as an encounter spell and use it again as a killer.<br />
<br />
::::::::Again, it helps to read. Quoth PHB: '''Encounter Powers''' An encounter power can be used once per encounter. You need to take a short rest (page 263) before you can use one again. Encounter powers produce more powerful, more dramatic effects than at-will powers. If you’re a martial character, they are exploits you’ve practiced extensively but can pull off only once in a while. If you’re an arcane or divine character, these are spells or prayers of such power that they take time to re-form in your mind after you unleash their magic energy.--[[User:Taritus|Taritus]] 11:30, 21 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::::You can't make ''shape magic'' your encounter spell, because only daily spells qualify. ''Shape magic'' is not a spell because it doesn't have the "arcane" keyword. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 11:32, 21 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::::::::Oh, didn't catch that.--[[User:Taritus|Taritus]] 11:38, 21 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::::::::: encounter spells arent used only in encounters. that is a ridiculous notion. else i would keep grasshoppers in my backpack, pull one out each time i would wish to use an encounter power and have an "encounter" recognized with the grasshopper as enemy and blast the grasshopper (where, of course, i put grasshopper where i would like to blast). clearly this is ridiculous. or maybe just tell the DM "i suspect there are enemies there and i use an ancounter power". in general, encounter powers are used in what is properly called "encounters" meaning with enemies and such. but at the essence, "encounter" isnt well defined and as i c it, an encounter power can be used whenever, but requires 5 minutes of rest afterwards to regain it (and other encounter powers).<br />
<br />
:::::::::::: perhaps i should remind you that daily spells arent "daily". you can, in fact, cast more than one daily spell in some day (though not every day). recall that daily spells are regained after an extended rest which means that u can regain ur daily spells every 18 hours. 16 if u r eladrin. in short, spells are clasified, in my proudful humble opinion, according to the shortest time u can regain them: for at will powers it is practically no time at all, for encounter powers it is 5 minutes and for daily spells it is 18 hours.<br />
<br />
:::::::::::: also, reading "closing spell" more closely, it states that if u dont have any OTHER daily spells, u get an additional 5d10 of damage. so if u indeed choose it twice per day as an archmage feature, u would indeed be able to use it twice and with the additional 5d10 of damage on both times. i do apologize for format if i am indeed not using it properly as u suggested earlier.</div>No problemhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:4e_Classes,_Paragon_Paths,_and_Epic_Destinies&diff=276861Talk:4e Classes, Paragon Paths, and Epic Destinies2008-08-21T18:46:40Z<p>No problem: </p>
<hr />
<div>== All 4e Base Classes ==<br />
<br />
Whats wrong with the "all 4e base classes"? It keeps coming up with an error. Can somebody sort it please? --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 09:10, 20 January 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
:Someone must have made the dpl incorrect or somesuch... The problem is that the page is too large for it to load correctly. I will have [[User:Blue Dragon|Blue Dragon]] take a look. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 10:18, 28 January 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
== Organization ==<br />
<br />
Shouldn't it be Class-Paragon Path-Epic Destiny-NPC instead of duplicating 3e? Regards--[[User:Pwsnafu|Pwsnafu]] 18:29, 6 February 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
:Yes. Incidentally, are epic destinies just a followon from paragon paths or a seperate thing entirely? {{Unsigned|Sam Kay|06:54, 15 February 2008 (MST)}}<br />
<br />
::My understanding is that you choose a Paragon Path at level 11 and an Epic Destiny at level 21. If you look at the Christmas present (the Elf racial entry) the racial feat has a requirement "Heroic Tier", so it doesn't work in Paragon or Epic. I think this to prevent the "epic is too complicated" criticism of 3E. So my understanding is that they are separate things. What we don't know is whether you can multiclass a Paragon Path. Regards --[[User:Pwsnafu|Pwsnafu]] 17:58, 16 February 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
::: Only one of each. One exception is that you give up a paragon path to extend your heroic tier multiclassing, but that's the only exception right now. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 19:28, 9 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::: After-note: NPC classes no longer exist. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 19:29, 9 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== questions ==<br />
<br />
i dont get some things:<br />
:1. wizard. daily spells: u r supposed to begin knowing two daily spells and each time u gain a level that lets u select a daily spell, u choose two daily spells to add to spellbook. fine. now, what happens when u get to replace a daily power? do u learn two new powers from the new level or do u replace any two daily powers u had with two daily powers of ur current level? or something else entirely?<br />
:2. related to 1, what happens when u get ur paragon daily spell at level 20? do u just add it to spellbook or is it known internally like encounter powers? and if u add it to spellbook, do u add another power or ur level or lower as per choosing two daily spells when u learn get to choose new daily spell?<br />
:3. this is more of a bitch about the classes in general: why would paragon tier FORCE me to choose an 11th level encounter power i will be stuck with throughout my entire career as one of my (at most) 4 encounter powers? these are the powers i use most of all. each encounter (usually) starts witht he firing off of encounter powers and i get stuck at level 20+ with a sucky paragon 11th level encounter power which i can never replace and must use.<br />
:4. the paragon path warmage has the lovely daily power "closing spell" which does 3d10 +int mod damage and an additional 5d10 damage if this is the last daily power of the day. very nice and useful. now, the archmage epic path lets u choose 1 daily power to use as an encounter spell at level 30. a few questions arise: 1. what happens if i choose "closing spell" as this power? under what conditions would i get the additional 5d10 damage? 2. would this daily spell take up one of my encounter power slots of daily spells slots, meaning, say i chose daily power X to be an encounter spell (remember, i am level 30). do i get to use power X every encounter but in addition i can use only 3 other daily powers and 4 other encounter powers or can i use 4 daily powers, power X every encounter and another 3 encounter powers? how would that work? plus, if an archmage chooses to be able to cast "closing spell" twice daily, and it is the last daily spell he has left, does he gain the additional 5d10 for both castings or just the second one?<br />
:5. when u attack with an area spell which requires u make an attack, do u make one attack roll which is compared to the relevant defenses of those in the area or do u make an attack roll for each creature in the area?<br />
<br />
:Well, for starters, this isn't a forum, proper spelling is requested, as it's not too hard. Also, sign your posts.<br />
**1. You would take two new spells if you wanted to. If not, pick one, replace, and then you're good. If not pick two, replace two. Simple.<br />
**2. As you can't get any other daily spells from the Paragon tier, you only gain that single spell. There are no level 20 spells.<br />
**3. The book, if you would read it before posting, italicizes to make it more apparent, "All the powers and features you gain from your paragon path come ''in addition'' to your class powers and features, not instead of them."<br />
**4. You answered your own question. It's no longer a daily power if you take it as an Archmage, thus you can never gain the +5d10.<br />
**5. Again, read the book. You make an attack roll for each creature in the area, and one damage roll.--[[User:Taritus|Taritus]] 08:02, 21 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:: <br />
**1. that clarifies it.<br />
**2. i thought perhaps that level or lower, as is customary when choosing new daily spells. lower in this instance since, as u said, there are no 20th level daily spells.<br />
**3. i know that it is supposed to come in addition but! in addition to what?! what is the number supposed to be without it? when going over the character advancement table, i noticed that at level 11, u gain, and i quote "paragon path features; gain 1 paragon path encounter attack power; gain 1 feat". there is no mention of gaining a "regular" encounter power whereas in the column of total powers known, u seem to gain an encounter power and since every time one of the numbers for encounter, daily or utility powers go up u also get a corresponding mention in the powers and features column ("gain one encounter attack power" for example) i had assumed i was fuzzy on something. by the way, the same thing applies to the 12th level utility power. the number for utility power goes up one, the powers and features column states u gain one paragon path utility power and there is NO mention of a gained "regular" utility power. same for level 20 when u gain a paragon daily attack spell. i gather from ur comments that, well, 1 encounter, daily and utility powers of the 4/4/7 i have at level 30, come from paragon path and another utility comes from epic destiny. as i said, this part is me bitching about it. seems i would rather have my own choice of powers and not get stuck at level 27 with an 11th level encounter attack power that i cant replace or retrain.<br />
**4. ok.<br />
**5. i was, indeed, to lazy to look for that part in the entire book. thanks.<br />
<br />
<br />
::now that i read the character advancement table again and more closely, there is nothing to prevent me from replacing an encounter or daily power when the table says i can replace said power. one cannot retrain paragon path powers but i did not find anything that prohibits replacing them. do u know of any such thing?<br />
<br />
:::well, how about this: a 30th level archmage chooses "shape magic" to be his daily spell to be made an encounter spell (archspell feature). this means the archmage can recharge ALL his powers after an encounter and, had he been a warmage in paragon path, can use "closing spell" twice as his last daily spell per encounter thus making him a literal killing machine. i am still trying to choose the daily spell that can be used twice daily for the archmage. suggestions? well, that choice can be made daily so is very flexible.<br />
<br />
::::Your formatting makes this very difficult to read... Oh well. Again, paragon powers are gained in addition to normal powers. Never when you gain a paragon power is there an asterisk marking that you must replace a power. You replace an encounter power at level 10, keeping you at 3, and gain an extra at level 11, increasing it to 4. If as an archmage you take a Daily power as an Encounter power, it is an encounter power, and thus any effects mentioning a daily power to not apply to it. Encounter power effects, however do.--[[User:Taritus|Taritus]] 09:28, 21 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::: thought as much. what say u about the archmage loophole?<br />
<br />
::::::It doesn't exist. Epic Destiny powers lack power sources, and Shape Magic says one arcane power. Arcane referring to the power source. Plus, encounter powers may only be used during encounters, and only once during each encounter, so no getting all your powers back. Though if you're talking about only regaining Closing Spell, and using it twice to get the +5d10 bonus you must have used all your real Daily powers, even though Closing Spell isn't a Daily power anymore. Throw out all your Dailies at the beginning of the session, then lay waste with Closing Spell. Yeah, that works.--[[User:Taritus|Taritus]] 10:30, 21 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::i meant making "shape magic" my encounter spell. "archspell" seems to allow it since it is a daily spell. and u can, according to my understanding, use encounter spells outside of encounters (encounter spell is a term refering to a power which can be recherged after a 5 minute rest. it is not, as i c it, a term refering to when u can use it). u just need to rest 5 minutes after using it but given that u have at most 4 daily spells plus 7 utility daily spells u will just need 11 times 5 minutes recharging all your daily powers. an hour say. not a short time but definitely useable. <br />
<br />
:::::::then, using this power during an actual encounter, after having spent all your daily spells except for "closing spell", u can use "closing spell" once as a killer and then regain it using "shape magic" as an encounter spell and use it again as a killer.<br />
<br />
::::::::Again, it helps to read. Quoth PHB: '''Encounter Powers''' An encounter power can be used once per encounter. You need to take a short rest (page 263) before you can use one again. Encounter powers produce more powerful, more dramatic effects than at-will powers. If you’re a martial character, they are exploits you’ve practiced extensively but can pull off only once in a while. If you’re an arcane or divine character, these are spells or prayers of such power that they take time to re-form in your mind after you unleash their magic energy.--[[User:Taritus|Taritus]] 11:30, 21 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::::You can't make ''shape magic'' your encounter spell, because only daily spells qualify. ''Shape magic'' is not a spell because it doesn't have the "arcane" keyword. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 11:32, 21 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::::::::Oh, didn't catch that.--[[User:Taritus|Taritus]] 11:38, 21 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::::::::: encounter spells arent used only in encounters. that is a ridiculous notion. else i would keep grasshoppers in my backpack, pull one out each time i would wish to use an encounter power and have an "encounter" recognized with the grasshopper as enemy and blast the grasshopper (where, of course, i put grasshopper where i would like to blast). clearly this is ridiculous. or maybe just tell the DM "i suspect there are enemies there and i use an ancounter power". in general, encounter powers are used in what is properly called "encounters" meaning with enemies and such. but at the essence, "encounter" isnt well defined and as i c it, an encounter power can be used whenever, but requires 5 minutes of rest afterwards to regain it (and other encounter powers).<br />
<br />
:::::::::::: perhaps i should remind you that daily spells arent "daily". you can, in fact, cast more than one daily spell in some day (though not every day). recall that daily spells are regained after an extended rest which means that u can regain ur daily spells every 18 hours. 16 if u r eladrin. in short, spells are clasified, in my proudful humble opinion, according to the shortest time u can regain them: for at will powers it is practically no time at all, for encounter powers it is 5 minutes and for daily spells it is 18 hours.</div>No problemhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:4e_Classes,_Paragon_Paths,_and_Epic_Destinies&diff=276860Talk:4e Classes, Paragon Paths, and Epic Destinies2008-08-21T18:45:29Z<p>No problem: </p>
<hr />
<div>== All 4e Base Classes ==<br />
<br />
Whats wrong with the "all 4e base classes"? It keeps coming up with an error. Can somebody sort it please? --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 09:10, 20 January 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
:Someone must have made the dpl incorrect or somesuch... The problem is that the page is too large for it to load correctly. I will have [[User:Blue Dragon|Blue Dragon]] take a look. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 10:18, 28 January 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
== Organization ==<br />
<br />
Shouldn't it be Class-Paragon Path-Epic Destiny-NPC instead of duplicating 3e? Regards--[[User:Pwsnafu|Pwsnafu]] 18:29, 6 February 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
:Yes. Incidentally, are epic destinies just a followon from paragon paths or a seperate thing entirely? {{Unsigned|Sam Kay|06:54, 15 February 2008 (MST)}}<br />
<br />
::My understanding is that you choose a Paragon Path at level 11 and an Epic Destiny at level 21. If you look at the Christmas present (the Elf racial entry) the racial feat has a requirement "Heroic Tier", so it doesn't work in Paragon or Epic. I think this to prevent the "epic is too complicated" criticism of 3E. So my understanding is that they are separate things. What we don't know is whether you can multiclass a Paragon Path. Regards --[[User:Pwsnafu|Pwsnafu]] 17:58, 16 February 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
::: Only one of each. One exception is that you give up a paragon path to extend your heroic tier multiclassing, but that's the only exception right now. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 19:28, 9 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::: After-note: NPC classes no longer exist. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 19:29, 9 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== questions ==<br />
<br />
i dont get some things:<br />
:1. wizard. daily spells: u r supposed to begin knowing two daily spells and each time u gain a level that lets u select a daily spell, u choose two daily spells to add to spellbook. fine. now, what happens when u get to replace a daily power? do u learn two new powers from the new level or do u replace any two daily powers u had with two daily powers of ur current level? or something else entirely?<br />
:2. related to 1, what happens when u get ur paragon daily spell at level 20? do u just add it to spellbook or is it known internally like encounter powers? and if u add it to spellbook, do u add another power or ur level or lower as per choosing two daily spells when u learn get to choose new daily spell?<br />
:3. this is more of a bitch about the classes in general: why would paragon tier FORCE me to choose an 11th level encounter power i will be stuck with throughout my entire career as one of my (at most) 4 encounter powers? these are the powers i use most of all. each encounter (usually) starts witht he firing off of encounter powers and i get stuck at level 20+ with a sucky paragon 11th level encounter power which i can never replace and must use.<br />
:4. the paragon path warmage has the lovely daily power "closing spell" which does 3d10 +int mod damage and an additional 5d10 damage if this is the last daily power of the day. very nice and useful. now, the archmage epic path lets u choose 1 daily power to use as an encounter spell at level 30. a few questions arise: 1. what happens if i choose "closing spell" as this power? under what conditions would i get the additional 5d10 damage? 2. would this daily spell take up one of my encounter power slots of daily spells slots, meaning, say i chose daily power X to be an encounter spell (remember, i am level 30). do i get to use power X every encounter but in addition i can use only 3 other daily powers and 4 other encounter powers or can i use 4 daily powers, power X every encounter and another 3 encounter powers? how would that work? plus, if an archmage chooses to be able to cast "closing spell" twice daily, and it is the last daily spell he has left, does he gain the additional 5d10 for both castings or just the second one?<br />
:5. when u attack with an area spell which requires u make an attack, do u make one attack roll which is compared to the relevant defenses of those in the area or do u make an attack roll for each creature in the area?<br />
<br />
:Well, for starters, this isn't a forum, proper spelling is requested, as it's not too hard. Also, sign your posts.<br />
**1. You would take two new spells if you wanted to. If not, pick one, replace, and then you're good. If not pick two, replace two. Simple.<br />
**2. As you can't get any other daily spells from the Paragon tier, you only gain that single spell. There are no level 20 spells.<br />
**3. The book, if you would read it before posting, italicizes to make it more apparent, "All the powers and features you gain from your paragon path come ''in addition'' to your class powers and features, not instead of them."<br />
**4. You answered your own question. It's no longer a daily power if you take it as an Archmage, thus you can never gain the +5d10.<br />
**5. Again, read the book. You make an attack roll for each creature in the area, and one damage roll.--[[User:Taritus|Taritus]] 08:02, 21 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:: <br />
**1. that clarifies it.<br />
**2. i thought perhaps that level or lower, as is customary when choosing new daily spells. lower in this instance since, as u said, there are no 20th level daily spells.<br />
**3. i know that it is supposed to come in addition but! in addition to what?! what is the number supposed to be without it? when going over the character advancement table, i noticed that at level 11, u gain, and i quote "paragon path features; gain 1 paragon path encounter attack power; gain 1 feat". there is no mention of gaining a "regular" encounter power whereas in the column of total powers known, u seem to gain an encounter power and since every time one of the numbers for encounter, daily or utility powers go up u also get a corresponding mention in the powers and features column ("gain one encounter attack power" for example) i had assumed i was fuzzy on something. by the way, the same thing applies to the 12th level utility power. the number for utility power goes up one, the powers and features column states u gain one paragon path utility power and there is NO mention of a gained "regular" utility power. same for level 20 when u gain a paragon daily attack spell. i gather from ur comments that, well, 1 encounter, daily and utility powers of the 4/4/7 i have at level 30, come from paragon path and another utility comes from epic destiny. as i said, this part is me bitching about it. seems i would rather have my own choice of powers and not get stuck at level 27 with an 11th level encounter attack power that i cant replace or retrain.<br />
**4. ok.<br />
**5. i was, indeed, to lazy to look for that part in the entire book. thanks.<br />
<br />
<br />
::now that i read the character advancement table again and more closely, there is nothing to prevent me from replacing an encounter or daily power when the table says i can replace said power. one cannot retrain paragon path powers but i did not find anything that prohibits replacing them. do u know of any such thing?<br />
<br />
:::well, how about this: a 30th level archmage chooses "shape magic" to be his daily spell to be made an encounter spell (archspell feature). this means the archmage can recharge ALL his powers after an encounter and, had he been a warmage in paragon path, can use "closing spell" twice as his last daily spell per encounter thus making him a literal killing machine. i am still trying to choose the daily spell that can be used twice daily for the archmage. suggestions? well, that choice can be made daily so is very flexible.<br />
<br />
::::Your formatting makes this very difficult to read... Oh well. Again, paragon powers are gained in addition to normal powers. Never when you gain a paragon power is there an asterisk marking that you must replace a power. You replace an encounter power at level 10, keeping you at 3, and gain an extra at level 11, increasing it to 4. If as an archmage you take a Daily power as an Encounter power, it is an encounter power, and thus any effects mentioning a daily power to not apply to it. Encounter power effects, however do.--[[User:Taritus|Taritus]] 09:28, 21 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::: thought as much. what say u about the archmage loophole?<br />
<br />
::::::It doesn't exist. Epic Destiny powers lack power sources, and Shape Magic says one arcane power. Arcane referring to the power source. Plus, encounter powers may only be used during encounters, and only once during each encounter, so no getting all your powers back. Though if you're talking about only regaining Closing Spell, and using it twice to get the +5d10 bonus you must have used all your real Daily powers, even though Closing Spell isn't a Daily power anymore. Throw out all your Dailies at the beginning of the session, then lay waste with Closing Spell. Yeah, that works.--[[User:Taritus|Taritus]] 10:30, 21 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::i meant making "shape magic" my encounter spell. "archspell" seems to allow it since it is a daily spell. and u can, according to my understanding, use encounter spells outside of encounters (encounter spell is a term refering to a power which can be recherged after a 5 minute rest. it is not, as i c it, a term refering to when u can use it). u just need to rest 5 minutes after using it but given that u have at most 4 daily spells plus 7 utility daily spells u will just need 11 times 5 minutes recharging all your daily powers. an hour say. not a short time but definitely useable. <br />
<br />
:::::::then, using this power during an actual encounter, after having spent all your daily spells except for "closing spell", u can use "closing spell" once as a killer and then regain it using "shape magic" as an encounter spell and use it again as a killer.<br />
<br />
::::::::Again, it helps to read. Quoth PHB: '''Encounter Powers''' An encounter power can be used once per encounter. You need to take a short rest (page 263) before you can use one again. Encounter powers produce more powerful, more dramatic effects than at-will powers. If you’re a martial character, they are exploits you’ve practiced extensively but can pull off only once in a while. If you’re an arcane or divine character, these are spells or prayers of such power that they take time to re-form in your mind after you unleash their magic energy.--[[User:Taritus|Taritus]] 11:30, 21 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::::You can't make ''shape magic'' your encounter spell, because only daily spells qualify. ''Shape magic'' is not a spell because it doesn't have the "arcane" keyword. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 11:32, 21 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::::::::Oh, didn't catch that.--[[User:Taritus|Taritus]] 11:38, 21 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::::::::: encounter spells arent used only in encounters. that is a ridiculous notion. else i would keep grasshoppers in my backpack, pull one out each time i would wish to use an encounter power and have an "encounter" recognized with the grasshopper as enemy and blast the grasshopper (where, of course, i put grasshopper where i would like to blast). clearly this is ridiculous. or maybe just tell the DM "i suspect there are enemies there and i use an ancounter power". in general, encounter powers are used in what is properly called "encounters" meaning with enemies and such. but at the essence, "encounter" isnt well defined and as i c it, an encounter power can be used whenever, but requires 5 minutes of rest afterwards to regain it (and other encounter powers).<br />
<br />
:::::::::::: perhaps i should remind you that daily spells arent "daily". you can, in fact, cast more than one daily spell in some day (though not every day). recall that daily spells are regained after an extended rest which means that u can regain ur daily spells every 18 hours. 16 if u r eladrin. in short, spells are clasified, in my proudful humble opinion, according to the shortest time u can regain them: for at will powers it is practically no time at all, for encounter powers it is 5 minutes and for daily spells it is 18 hour.</div>No problemhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:4e_Classes,_Paragon_Paths,_and_Epic_Destinies&diff=276858Talk:4e Classes, Paragon Paths, and Epic Destinies2008-08-21T18:31:20Z<p>No problem: </p>
<hr />
<div>== All 4e Base Classes ==<br />
<br />
Whats wrong with the "all 4e base classes"? It keeps coming up with an error. Can somebody sort it please? --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 09:10, 20 January 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
:Someone must have made the dpl incorrect or somesuch... The problem is that the page is too large for it to load correctly. I will have [[User:Blue Dragon|Blue Dragon]] take a look. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 10:18, 28 January 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
== Organization ==<br />
<br />
Shouldn't it be Class-Paragon Path-Epic Destiny-NPC instead of duplicating 3e? Regards--[[User:Pwsnafu|Pwsnafu]] 18:29, 6 February 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
:Yes. Incidentally, are epic destinies just a followon from paragon paths or a seperate thing entirely? {{Unsigned|Sam Kay|06:54, 15 February 2008 (MST)}}<br />
<br />
::My understanding is that you choose a Paragon Path at level 11 and an Epic Destiny at level 21. If you look at the Christmas present (the Elf racial entry) the racial feat has a requirement "Heroic Tier", so it doesn't work in Paragon or Epic. I think this to prevent the "epic is too complicated" criticism of 3E. So my understanding is that they are separate things. What we don't know is whether you can multiclass a Paragon Path. Regards --[[User:Pwsnafu|Pwsnafu]] 17:58, 16 February 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
::: Only one of each. One exception is that you give up a paragon path to extend your heroic tier multiclassing, but that's the only exception right now. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 19:28, 9 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::: After-note: NPC classes no longer exist. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 19:29, 9 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== questions ==<br />
<br />
i dont get some things:<br />
:1. wizard. daily spells: u r supposed to begin knowing two daily spells and each time u gain a level that lets u select a daily spell, u choose two daily spells to add to spellbook. fine. now, what happens when u get to replace a daily power? do u learn two new powers from the new level or do u replace any two daily powers u had with two daily powers of ur current level? or something else entirely?<br />
:2. related to 1, what happens when u get ur paragon daily spell at level 20? do u just add it to spellbook or is it known internally like encounter powers? and if u add it to spellbook, do u add another power or ur level or lower as per choosing two daily spells when u learn get to choose new daily spell?<br />
:3. this is more of a bitch about the classes in general: why would paragon tier FORCE me to choose an 11th level encounter power i will be stuck with throughout my entire career as one of my (at most) 4 encounter powers? these are the powers i use most of all. each encounter (usually) starts witht he firing off of encounter powers and i get stuck at level 20+ with a sucky paragon 11th level encounter power which i can never replace and must use.<br />
:4. the paragon path warmage has the lovely daily power "closing spell" which does 3d10 +int mod damage and an additional 5d10 damage if this is the last daily power of the day. very nice and useful. now, the archmage epic path lets u choose 1 daily power to use as an encounter spell at level 30. a few questions arise: 1. what happens if i choose "closing spell" as this power? under what conditions would i get the additional 5d10 damage? 2. would this daily spell take up one of my encounter power slots of daily spells slots, meaning, say i chose daily power X to be an encounter spell (remember, i am level 30). do i get to use power X every encounter but in addition i can use only 3 other daily powers and 4 other encounter powers or can i use 4 daily powers, power X every encounter and another 3 encounter powers? how would that work? plus, if an archmage chooses to be able to cast "closing spell" twice daily, and it is the last daily spell he has left, does he gain the additional 5d10 for both castings or just the second one?<br />
:5. when u attack with an area spell which requires u make an attack, do u make one attack roll which is compared to the relevant defenses of those in the area or do u make an attack roll for each creature in the area?<br />
<br />
:Well, for starters, this isn't a forum, proper spelling is requested, as it's not too hard. Also, sign your posts.<br />
**1. You would take two new spells if you wanted to. If not, pick one, replace, and then you're good. If not pick two, replace two. Simple.<br />
**2. As you can't get any other daily spells from the Paragon tier, you only gain that single spell. There are no level 20 spells.<br />
**3. The book, if you would read it before posting, italicizes to make it more apparent, "All the powers and features you gain from your paragon path come ''in addition'' to your class powers and features, not instead of them."<br />
**4. You answered your own question. It's no longer a daily power if you take it as an Archmage, thus you can never gain the +5d10.<br />
**5. Again, read the book. You make an attack roll for each creature in the area, and one damage roll.--[[User:Taritus|Taritus]] 08:02, 21 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:: <br />
**1. that clarifies it.<br />
**2. i thought perhaps that level or lower, as is customary when choosing new daily spells. lower in this instance since, as u said, there are no 20th level daily spells.<br />
**3. i know that it is supposed to come in addition but! in addition to what?! what is the number supposed to be without it? when going over the character advancement table, i noticed that at level 11, u gain, and i quote "paragon path features; gain 1 paragon path encounter attack power; gain 1 feat". there is no mention of gaining a "regular" encounter power whereas in the column of total powers known, u seem to gain an encounter power and since every time one of the numbers for encounter, daily or utility powers go up u also get a corresponding mention in the powers and features column ("gain one encounter attack power" for example) i had assumed i was fuzzy on something. by the way, the same thing applies to the 12th level utility power. the number for utility power goes up one, the powers and features column states u gain one paragon path utility power and there is NO mention of a gained "regular" utility power. same for level 20 when u gain a paragon daily attack spell. i gather from ur comments that, well, 1 encounter, daily and utility powers of the 4/4/7 i have at level 30, come from paragon path and another utility comes from epic destiny. as i said, this part is me bitching about it. seems i would rather have my own choice of powers and not get stuck at level 27 with an 11th level encounter attack power that i cant replace or retrain.<br />
**4. ok.<br />
**5. i was, indeed, to lazy to look for that part in the entire book. thanks.<br />
<br />
<br />
::now that i read the character advancement table again and more closely, there is nothing to prevent me from replacing an encounter or daily power when the table says i can replace said power. one cannot retrain paragon path powers but i did not find anything that prohibits replacing them. do u know of any such thing?<br />
<br />
:::well, how about this: a 30th level archmage chooses "shape magic" to be his daily spell to be made an encounter spell (archspell feature). this means the archmage can recharge ALL his powers after an encounter and, had he been a warmage in paragon path, can use "closing spell" twice as his last daily spell per encounter thus making him a literal killing machine. i am still trying to choose the daily spell that can be used twice daily for the archmage. suggestions? well, that choice can be made daily so is very flexible.<br />
<br />
::::Your formatting makes this very difficult to read... Oh well. Again, paragon powers are gained in addition to normal powers. Never when you gain a paragon power is there an asterisk marking that you must replace a power. You replace an encounter power at level 10, keeping you at 3, and gain an extra at level 11, increasing it to 4. If as an archmage you take a Daily power as an Encounter power, it is an encounter power, and thus any effects mentioning a daily power to not apply to it. Encounter power effects, however do.--[[User:Taritus|Taritus]] 09:28, 21 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::: thought as much. what say u about the archmage loophole?<br />
<br />
::::::It doesn't exist. Epic Destiny powers lack power sources, and Shape Magic says one arcane power. Arcane referring to the power source. Plus, encounter powers may only be used during encounters, and only once during each encounter, so no getting all your powers back. Though if you're talking about only regaining Closing Spell, and using it twice to get the +5d10 bonus you must have used all your real Daily powers, even though Closing Spell isn't a Daily power anymore. Throw out all your Dailies at the beginning of the session, then lay waste with Closing Spell. Yeah, that works.--[[User:Taritus|Taritus]] 10:30, 21 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::i meant making "shape magic" my encounter spell. "archspell" seems to allow it since it is a daily spell. and u can, according to my understanding, use encounter spells outside of encounters (encounter spell is a term refering to a power which can be recherged after a 5 minute rest. it is not, as i c it, a term refering to when u can use it). u just need to rest 5 minutes after using it but given that u have at most 4 daily spells plus 7 utility daily spells u will just need 11 times 5 minutes recharging all your daily powers. an hour say. not a short time but definitely useable. <br />
<br />
:::::::then, using this power during an actual encounter, after having spent all your daily spells except for "closing spell", u can use "closing spell" once as a killer and then regain it using "shape magic" as an encounter spell and use it again as a killer.<br />
<br />
::::::::Again, it helps to read. Quoth PHB: '''Encounter Powers''' An encounter power can be used once per encounter. You need to take a short rest (page 263) before you can use one again. Encounter powers produce more powerful, more dramatic effects than at-will powers. If you’re a martial character, they are exploits you’ve practiced extensively but can pull off only once in a while. If you’re an arcane or divine character, these are spells or prayers of such power that they take time to re-form in your mind after you unleash their magic energy.--[[User:Taritus|Taritus]] 11:30, 21 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::::You can't make ''shape magic'' your encounter spell, because only daily spells qualify. ''Shape magic'' is not a spell because it doesn't have the "arcane" keyword. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 11:32, 21 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::::::::Oh, didn't catch that.--[[User:Taritus|Taritus]] 11:38, 21 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::::::::: encounter spells arent used only in encounters. that is a ridiculous notion. else i would keep grasshoppers in my backpack, pull one out each time i would wish to use an encounter power and have an "encounter" recognized with the grasshopper as enemy and blast the grasshopper (where, of course, i put grasshopper where i would like to blast). clearly this is ridiculous. or maybe just tell the DM "i suspect there are enemies there and i use an ancounter power". in general, encounter powers are used in what is properly called "encounters" meaning with enemies and such. but at the essence, "encounter" isnt well defined and as i c it, an encounter power can be used whenever, but requires 5 minutes of rest afterwards to regain it (and other encounter powers).</div>No problemhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:4e_Classes,_Paragon_Paths,_and_Epic_Destinies&diff=276857Talk:4e Classes, Paragon Paths, and Epic Destinies2008-08-21T18:27:20Z<p>No problem: </p>
<hr />
<div>== All 4e Base Classes ==<br />
<br />
Whats wrong with the "all 4e base classes"? It keeps coming up with an error. Can somebody sort it please? --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 09:10, 20 January 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
:Someone must have made the dpl incorrect or somesuch... The problem is that the page is too large for it to load correctly. I will have [[User:Blue Dragon|Blue Dragon]] take a look. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 10:18, 28 January 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
== Organization ==<br />
<br />
Shouldn't it be Class-Paragon Path-Epic Destiny-NPC instead of duplicating 3e? Regards--[[User:Pwsnafu|Pwsnafu]] 18:29, 6 February 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
:Yes. Incidentally, are epic destinies just a followon from paragon paths or a seperate thing entirely? {{Unsigned|Sam Kay|06:54, 15 February 2008 (MST)}}<br />
<br />
::My understanding is that you choose a Paragon Path at level 11 and an Epic Destiny at level 21. If you look at the Christmas present (the Elf racial entry) the racial feat has a requirement "Heroic Tier", so it doesn't work in Paragon or Epic. I think this to prevent the "epic is too complicated" criticism of 3E. So my understanding is that they are separate things. What we don't know is whether you can multiclass a Paragon Path. Regards --[[User:Pwsnafu|Pwsnafu]] 17:58, 16 February 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
::: Only one of each. One exception is that you give up a paragon path to extend your heroic tier multiclassing, but that's the only exception right now. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 19:28, 9 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::: After-note: NPC classes no longer exist. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 19:29, 9 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== questions ==<br />
<br />
i dont get some things:<br />
:1. wizard. daily spells: u r supposed to begin knowing two daily spells and each time u gain a level that lets u select a daily spell, u choose two daily spells to add to spellbook. fine. now, what happens when u get to replace a daily power? do u learn two new powers from the new level or do u replace any two daily powers u had with two daily powers of ur current level? or something else entirely?<br />
:2. related to 1, what happens when u get ur paragon daily spell at level 20? do u just add it to spellbook or is it known internally like encounter powers? and if u add it to spellbook, do u add another power or ur level or lower as per choosing two daily spells when u learn get to choose new daily spell?<br />
:3. this is more of a bitch about the classes in general: why would paragon tier FORCE me to choose an 11th level encounter power i will be stuck with throughout my entire career as one of my (at most) 4 encounter powers? these are the powers i use most of all. each encounter (usually) starts witht he firing off of encounter powers and i get stuck at level 20+ with a sucky paragon 11th level encounter power which i can never replace and must use.<br />
:4. the paragon path warmage has the lovely daily power "closing spell" which does 3d10 +int mod damage and an additional 5d10 damage if this is the last daily power of the day. very nice and useful. now, the archmage epic path lets u choose 1 daily power to use as an encounter spell at level 30. a few questions arise: 1. what happens if i choose "closing spell" as this power? under what conditions would i get the additional 5d10 damage? 2. would this daily spell take up one of my encounter power slots of daily spells slots, meaning, say i chose daily power X to be an encounter spell (remember, i am level 30). do i get to use power X every encounter but in addition i can use only 3 other daily powers and 4 other encounter powers or can i use 4 daily powers, power X every encounter and another 3 encounter powers? how would that work? plus, if an archmage chooses to be able to cast "closing spell" twice daily, and it is the last daily spell he has left, does he gain the additional 5d10 for both castings or just the second one?<br />
:5. when u attack with an area spell which requires u make an attack, do u make one attack roll which is compared to the relevant defenses of those in the area or do u make an attack roll for each creature in the area?<br />
<br />
:Well, for starters, this isn't a forum, proper spelling is requested, as it's not too hard. Also, sign your posts.<br />
**1. You would take two new spells if you wanted to. If not, pick one, replace, and then you're good. If not pick two, replace two. Simple.<br />
**2. As you can't get any other daily spells from the Paragon tier, you only gain that single spell. There are no level 20 spells.<br />
**3. The book, if you would read it before posting, italicizes to make it more apparent, "All the powers and features you gain from your paragon path come ''in addition'' to your class powers and features, not instead of them."<br />
**4. You answered your own question. It's no longer a daily power if you take it as an Archmage, thus you can never gain the +5d10.<br />
**5. Again, read the book. You make an attack roll for each creature in the area, and one damage roll.--[[User:Taritus|Taritus]] 08:02, 21 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:: <br />
**1. that clarifies it.<br />
**2. i thought perhaps that level or lower, as is customary when choosing new daily spells. lower in this instance since, as u said, there are no 20th level daily spells.<br />
**3. i know that it is supposed to come in addition but! in addition to what?! what is the number supposed to be without it? when going over the character advancement table, i noticed that at level 11, u gain, and i quote "paragon path features; gain 1 paragon path encounter attack power; gain 1 feat". there is no mention of gaining a "regular" encounter power whereas in the column of total powers known, u seem to gain an encounter power and since every time one of the numbers for encounter, daily or utility powers go up u also get a corresponding mention in the powers and features column ("gain one encounter attack power" for example) i had assumed i was fuzzy on something. by the way, the same thing applies to the 12th level utility power. the number for utility power goes up one, the powers and features column states u gain one paragon path utility power and there is NO mention of a gained "regular" utility power. same for level 20 when u gain a paragon daily attack spell. i gather from ur comments that, well, 1 encounter, daily and utility powers of the 4/4/7 i have at level 30, come from paragon path and another utility comes from epic destiny. as i said, this part is me bitching about it. seems i would rather have my own choice of powers and not get stuck at level 27 with an 11th level encounter attack power that i cant replace or retrain.<br />
**4. ok.<br />
**5. i was, indeed, to lazy to look for that part in the entire book. thanks.<br />
<br />
<br />
::now that i read the character advancement table again and more closely, there is nothing to prevent me from replacing an encounter or daily power when the table says i can replace said power. one cannot retrain paragon path powers but i did not find anything that prohibits replacing them. do u know of any such thing?<br />
<br />
:::well, how about this: a 30th level archmage chooses "shape magic" to be his daily spell to be made an encounter spell (archspell feature). this means the archmage can recharge ALL his powers after an encounter and, had he been a warmage in paragon path, can use "closing spell" twice as his last daily spell per encounter thus making him a literal killing machine. i am still trying to choose the daily spell that can be used twice daily for the archmage. suggestions? well, that choice can be made daily so is very flexible.<br />
<br />
::::Your formatting makes this very difficult to read... Oh well. Again, paragon powers are gained in addition to normal powers. Never when you gain a paragon power is there an asterisk marking that you must replace a power. You replace an encounter power at level 10, keeping you at 3, and gain an extra at level 11, increasing it to 4. If as an archmage you take a Daily power as an Encounter power, it is an encounter power, and thus any effects mentioning a daily power to not apply to it. Encounter power effects, however do.--[[User:Taritus|Taritus]] 09:28, 21 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::: thought as much. what say u about the archmage loophole?<br />
<br />
::::::It doesn't exist. Epic Destiny powers lack power sources, and Shape Magic says one arcane power. Arcane referring to the power source. Plus, encounter powers may only be used during encounters, and only once during each encounter, so no getting all your powers back. Though if you're talking about only regaining Closing Spell, and using it twice to get the +5d10 bonus you must have used all your real Daily powers, even though Closing Spell isn't a Daily power anymore. Throw out all your Dailies at the beginning of the session, then lay waste with Closing Spell. Yeah, that works.--[[User:Taritus|Taritus]] 10:30, 21 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::i meant making "shape magic" my encounter spell. "archspell" seems to allow it since it is a daily spell. and u can, according to my understanding, use encounter spells outside of encounters (encounter spell is a term refering to a power which can be recherged after a 5 minute rest. it is not, as i c it, a term refering to when u can use it). u just need to rest 5 minutes after using it but given that u have at most 4 daily spells plus 7 utility daily spells u will just need 11 times 5 minutes recharging all your daily powers. an hour say. not a short time but definitely useable. <br />
<br />
:::::::then, using this power during an actual encounter, after having spent all your daily spells except for "closing spell", u can use "closing spell" once as a killer and then regain it using "shape magic" as an encounter spell and use it again as a killer.<br />
<br />
::::::::Again, it helps to read. Quoth PHB: '''Encounter Powers''' An encounter power can be used once per encounter. You need to take a short rest (page 263) before you can use one again. Encounter powers produce more powerful, more dramatic effects than at-will powers. If you’re a martial character, they are exploits you’ve practiced extensively but can pull off only once in a while. If you’re an arcane or divine character, these are spells or prayers of such power that they take time to re-form in your mind after you unleash their magic energy.--[[User:Taritus|Taritus]] 11:30, 21 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::::You can't make ''shape magic'' your encounter spell, because only daily spells qualify. ''Shape magic'' is not a spell because it doesn't have the "arcane" keyword. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 11:32, 21 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::::::::Oh, didn't catch that.--[[User:Taritus|Taritus]] 11:38, 21 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::::::::: encounter spell arent used only in encounters. that is a ridiculous notion. else i would keep grasshoppers in my backpack, pull one out each time i would wish to use an encounter power and have an "encounter" recognized with the grasshopper as enemy and blast the grasshopper (where, of course, i put grasshopper where i would like to blast). clearly this is ridiculous. or maybe just tell the DM "i suspect there are enemies there and i use an ancounter power". in general, encounter powers are used in what is properly called "encounters" meaning with enemies and such. but at the essence, "encounter" isnt well defined and as i c it, an encounter power can be used whenever, but requires 5 minutes of rest afterwards to regain it (and other encounter powers).</div>No problemhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:4e_Classes,_Paragon_Paths,_and_Epic_Destinies&diff=276840Talk:4e Classes, Paragon Paths, and Epic Destinies2008-08-21T17:13:03Z<p>No problem: </p>
<hr />
<div>== All 4e Base Classes ==<br />
<br />
Whats wrong with the "all 4e base classes"? It keeps coming up with an error. Can somebody sort it please? --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 09:10, 20 January 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
:Someone must have made the dpl incorrect or somesuch... The problem is that the page is too large for it to load correctly. I will have [[User:Blue Dragon|Blue Dragon]] take a look. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 10:18, 28 January 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
== Organization ==<br />
<br />
Shouldn't it be Class-Paragon Path-Epic Destiny-NPC instead of duplicating 3e? Regards--[[User:Pwsnafu|Pwsnafu]] 18:29, 6 February 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
:Yes. Incidentally, are epic destinies just a followon from paragon paths or a seperate thing entirely? {{Unsigned|Sam Kay|06:54, 15 February 2008 (MST)}}<br />
<br />
::My understanding is that you choose a Paragon Path at level 11 and an Epic Destiny at level 21. If you look at the Christmas present (the Elf racial entry) the racial feat has a requirement "Heroic Tier", so it doesn't work in Paragon or Epic. I think this to prevent the "epic is too complicated" criticism of 3E. So my understanding is that they are separate things. What we don't know is whether you can multiclass a Paragon Path. Regards --[[User:Pwsnafu|Pwsnafu]] 17:58, 16 February 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
::: Only one of each. One exception is that you give up a paragon path to extend your heroic tier multiclassing, but that's the only exception right now. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 19:28, 9 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::: After-note: NPC classes no longer exist. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 19:29, 9 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== questions ==<br />
<br />
i dont get some things:<br />
:1. wizard. daily spells: u r supposed to begin knowing two daily spells and each time u gain a level that lets u select a daily spell, u choose two daily spells to add to spellbook. fine. now, what happens when u get to replace a daily power? do u learn two new powers from the new level or do u replace any two daily powers u had with two daily powers of ur current level? or something else entirely?<br />
:2. related to 1, what happens when u get ur paragon daily spell at level 20? do u just add it to spellbook or is it known internally like encounter powers? and if u add it to spellbook, do u add another power or ur level or lower as per choosing two daily spells when u learn get to choose new daily spell?<br />
:3. this is more of a bitch about the classes in general: why would paragon tier FORCE me to choose an 11th level encounter power i will be stuck with throughout my entire career as one of my (at most) 4 encounter powers? these are the powers i use most of all. each encounter (usually) starts witht he firing off of encounter powers and i get stuck at level 20+ with a sucky paragon 11th level encounter power which i can never replace and must use.<br />
:4. the paragon path warmage has the lovely daily power "closing spell" which does 3d10 +int mod damage and an additional 5d10 damage if this is the last daily power of the day. very nice and useful. now, the archmage epic path lets u choose 1 daily power to use as an encounter spell at level 30. a few questions arise: 1. what happens if i choose "closing spell" as this power? under what conditions would i get the additional 5d10 damage? 2. would this daily spell take up one of my encounter power slots of daily spells slots, meaning, say i chose daily power X to be an encounter spell (remember, i am level 30). do i get to use power X every encounter but in addition i can use only 3 other daily powers and 4 other encounter powers or can i use 4 daily powers, power X every encounter and another 3 encounter powers? how would that work? plus, if an archmage chooses to be able to cast "closing spell" twice daily, and it is the last daily spell he has left, does he gain the additional 5d10 for both castings or just the second one?<br />
:5. when u attack with an area spell which requires u make an attack, do u make one attack roll which is compared to the relevant defenses of those in the area or do u make an attack roll for each creature in the area?<br />
<br />
:Well, for starters, this isn't a forum, proper spelling is requested, as it's not too hard. Also, sign your posts.<br />
**1. You would take two new spells if you wanted to. If not, pick one, replace, and then you're good. If not pick two, replace two. Simple.<br />
**2. As you can't get any other daily spells from the Paragon tier, you only gain that single spell. There are no level 20 spells.<br />
**3. The book, if you would read it before posting, italicizes to make it more apparent, "All the powers and features you gain from your paragon path come ''in addition'' to your class powers and features, not instead of them."<br />
**4. You answered your own question. It's no longer a daily power if you take it as an Archmage, thus you can never gain the +5d10.<br />
**5. Again, read the book. You make an attack roll for each creature in the area, and one damage roll.--[[User:Taritus|Taritus]] 08:02, 21 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:: <br />
**1. that clarifies it.<br />
**2. i thought perhaps that level or lower, as is customary when choosing new daily spells. lower in this instance since, as u said, there are no 20th level daily spells.<br />
**3. i know that it is supposed to come in addition but! in addition to what?! what is the number supposed to be without it? when going over the character advancement table, i noticed that at level 11, u gain, and i quote "paragon path features; gain 1 paragon path encounter attack power; gain 1 feat". there is no mention of gaining a "regular" encounter power whereas in the column of total powers known, u seem to gain an encounter power and since every time one of the numbers for encounter, daily or utility powers go up u also get a corresponding mention in the powers and features column ("gain one encounter attack power" for example) i had assumed i was fuzzy on something. by the way, the same thing applies to the 12th level utility power. the number for utility power goes up one, the powers and features column states u gain one paragon path utility power and there is NO mention of a gained "regular" utility power. same for level 20 when u gain a paragon daily attack spell. i gather from ur comments that, well, 1 encounter, daily and utility powers of the 4/4/7 i have at level 30, come from paragon path and another utility comes from epic destiny. as i said, this part is me bitching about it. seems i would rather have my own choice of powers and not get stuck at level 27 with an 11th level encounter attack power that i cant replace or retrain.<br />
**4. ok.<br />
**5. i was, indeed, to lazy to look for that part in the entire book. thanks.<br />
<br />
<br />
::now that i read the character advancement table again and more closely, there is nothing to prevent me from replacing an encounter or daily power when the table says i can replace said power. one cannot retrain paragon path powers but i did not find anything that prohibits replacing them. do u know of any such thing?<br />
<br />
:::well, how about this: a 30th level archmage chooses "shape magic" to be his daily spell to be made an encounter spell (archspell feature). this means the archmage can recharge ALL his powers after an encounter and, had he been a warmage in paragon path, can use "closing spell" twice as his last daily spell per encounter thus making him a literal killing machine. i am still trying to choose the daily spell that can be used twice daily for the archmage. suggestions? well, that choice can be made daily so is very flexible.<br />
<br />
::::Your formatting makes this very difficult to read... Oh well. Again, paragon powers are gained in addition to normal powers. Never when you gain a paragon power is there an asterisk marking that you must replace a power. You replace an encounter power at level 10, keeping you at 3, and gain an extra at level 11, increasing it to 4. If as an archmage you take a Daily power as an Encounter power, it is an encounter power, and thus any effects mentioning a daily power to not apply to it. Encounter power effects, however do.--[[User:Taritus|Taritus]] 09:28, 21 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::: thought as much. what say u about the archmage loophole?<br />
<br />
::::::It doesn't exist. Epic Destiny powers lack power sources, and Shape Magic says one arcane power. Arcane referring to the power source. Plus, encounter powers may only be used during encounters, and only once during each encounter, so no getting all your powers back. Though if you're talking about only regaining Closing Spell, and using it twice to get the +5d10 bonus you must have used all your real Daily powers, even though Closing Spell isn't a Daily power anymore. Throw out all your Dailies at the beginning of the session, then lay waste with Closing Spell. Yeah, that works.--[[User:Taritus|Taritus]] 10:30, 21 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::i meant making "shape magic" my encounter spell. "archspell" seems to allow it since it is a daily spell. and u can, according to my understanding, use encounter spells outside of encounters (encounter spell is a term refering to a power which can be recherged after a 5 minute rest. it is not, as i c it, a term refering to when u can use it). u just need to rest 5 minutes after using it but given that u have at most 4 daily spells plus 7 utility daily spells u will just need 11 times 5 minutes recharging all your daily powers. an hour say. not a short time but definitely useable. <br />
<br />
:::::::then, using this power during an actual encounter, after having spent all your daily spells except for "closing spell", u can use "closing spell" once as a killer and then regain it using "shape magic" as an encounter spell and use it again as a killer.</div>No problemhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:4e_Classes,_Paragon_Paths,_and_Epic_Destinies&diff=276824Talk:4e Classes, Paragon Paths, and Epic Destinies2008-08-21T16:18:43Z<p>No problem: </p>
<hr />
<div>== All 4e Base Classes ==<br />
<br />
Whats wrong with the "all 4e base classes"? It keeps coming up with an error. Can somebody sort it please? --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 09:10, 20 January 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
:Someone must have made the dpl incorrect or somesuch... The problem is that the page is too large for it to load correctly. I will have [[User:Blue Dragon|Blue Dragon]] take a look. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 10:18, 28 January 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
== Organization ==<br />
<br />
Shouldn't it be Class-Paragon Path-Epic Destiny-NPC instead of duplicating 3e? Regards--[[User:Pwsnafu|Pwsnafu]] 18:29, 6 February 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
:Yes. Incidentally, are epic destinies just a followon from paragon paths or a seperate thing entirely? {{Unsigned|Sam Kay|06:54, 15 February 2008 (MST)}}<br />
<br />
::My understanding is that you choose a Paragon Path at level 11 and an Epic Destiny at level 21. If you look at the Christmas present (the Elf racial entry) the racial feat has a requirement "Heroic Tier", so it doesn't work in Paragon or Epic. I think this to prevent the "epic is too complicated" criticism of 3E. So my understanding is that they are separate things. What we don't know is whether you can multiclass a Paragon Path. Regards --[[User:Pwsnafu|Pwsnafu]] 17:58, 16 February 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
::: Only one of each. One exception is that you give up a paragon path to extend your heroic tier multiclassing, but that's the only exception right now. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 19:28, 9 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::: After-note: NPC classes no longer exist. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 19:29, 9 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== questions ==<br />
<br />
i dont get some things:<br />
:1. wizard. daily spells: u r supposed to begin knowing two daily spells and each time u gain a level that lets u select a daily spell, u choose two daily spells to add to spellbook. fine. now, what happens when u get to replace a daily power? do u learn two new powers from the new level or do u replace any two daily powers u had with two daily powers of ur current level? or something else entirely?<br />
:2. related to 1, what happens when u get ur paragon daily spell at level 20? do u just add it to spellbook or is it known internally like encounter powers? and if u add it to spellbook, do u add another power or ur level or lower as per choosing two daily spells when u learn get to choose new daily spell?<br />
:3. this is more of a bitch about the classes in general: why would paragon tier FORCE me to choose an 11th level encounter power i will be stuck with throughout my entire career as one of my (at most) 4 encounter powers? these are the powers i use most of all. each encounter (usually) starts witht he firing off of encounter powers and i get stuck at level 20+ with a sucky paragon 11th level encounter power which i can never replace and must use.<br />
:4. the paragon path warmage has the lovely daily power "closing spell" which does 3d10 +int mod damage and an additional 5d10 damage if this is the last daily power of the day. very nice and useful. now, the archmage epic path lets u choose 1 daily power to use as an encounter spell at level 30. a few questions arise: 1. what happens if i choose "closing spell" as this power? under what conditions would i get the additional 5d10 damage? 2. would this daily spell take up one of my encounter power slots of daily spells slots, meaning, say i chose daily power X to be an encounter spell (remember, i am level 30). do i get to use power X every encounter but in addition i can use only 3 other daily powers and 4 other encounter powers or can i use 4 daily powers, power X every encounter and another 3 encounter powers? how would that work? plus, if an archmage chooses to be able to cast "closing spell" twice daily, and it is the last daily spell he has left, does he gain the additional 5d10 for both castings or just the second one?<br />
:5. when u attack with an area spell which requires u make an attack, do u make one attack roll which is compared to the relevant defenses of those in the area or do u make an attack roll for each creature in the area?<br />
<br />
:Well, for starters, this isn't a forum, proper spelling is requested, as it's not too hard. Also, sign your posts.<br />
**1. You would take two new spells if you wanted to. If not, pick one, replace, and then you're good. If not pick two, replace two. Simple.<br />
**2. As you can't get any other daily spells from the Paragon tier, you only gain that single spell. There are no level 20 spells.<br />
**3. The book, if you would read it before posting, italicizes to make it more apparent, "All the powers and features you gain from your paragon path come ''in addition'' to your class powers and features, not instead of them."<br />
**4. You answered your own question. It's no longer a daily power if you take it as an Archmage, thus you can never gain the +5d10.<br />
**5. Again, read the book. You make an attack roll for each creature in the area, and one damage roll.--[[User:Taritus|Taritus]] 08:02, 21 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:: <br />
**1. that clarifies it.<br />
**2. i thought perhaps that level or lower, as is customary when choosing new daily spells. lower in this instance since, as u said, there are no 20th level daily spells.<br />
**3. i know that it is supposed to come in addition but! in addition to what?! what is the number supposed to be without it? when going over the character advancement table, i noticed that at level 11, u gain, and i quote "paragon path features; gain 1 paragon path encounter attack power; gain 1 feat". there is no mention of gaining a "regular" encounter power whereas in the column of total powers known, u seem to gain an encounter power and since every time one of the numbers for encounter, daily or utility powers go up u also get a corresponding mention in the powers and features column ("gain one encounter attack power" for example) i had assumed i was fuzzy on something. by the way, the same thing applies to the 12th level utility power. the number for utility power goes up one, the powers and features column states u gain one paragon path utility power and there is NO mention of a gained "regular" utility power. same for level 20 when u gain a paragon daily attack spell. i gather from ur comments that, well, 1 encounter, daily and utility powers of the 4/4/7 i have at level 30, come from paragon path and another utility comes from epic destiny. as i said, this part is me bitching about it. seems i would rather have my own choice of powers and not get stuck at level 27 with an 11th level encounter attack power that i cant replace or retrain.<br />
**4. ok.<br />
**5. i was, indeed, to lazy to look for that part in the entire book. thanks.<br />
<br />
<br />
::now that i read the character advancement table again and more closely, there is nothing to prevent me from replacing an encounter or daily power when the table says i can replace said power. one cannot retrain paragon path powers but i did not find anything that prohibits replacing them. do u know of any such thing?<br />
<br />
:::well, how about this: a 30th level archmage chooses "shape magic" to be his daily spell to be made an encounter spell (archspell feature). this means the archmage can recharge ALL his powers after an encounter and, had he been a warmage in paragon path, can use "closing spell" twice as his last daily spell per encounter thus making him a literal killing machine. i am still trying to choose the daily spell that can be used twice daily for the archmage. suggestions? well, that choice can be made daily so is very flexible.<br />
<br />
::::Your formatting makes this very difficult to read... Oh well. Again, paragon powers are gained in addition to normal powers. Never when you gain a paragon power is there an asterisk marking that you must replace a power. You replace an encounter power at level 10, keeping you at 3, and gain an extra at level 11, increasing it to 4. If as an archmage you take a Daily power as an Encounter power, it is an encounter power, and thus any effects mentioning a daily power to not apply to it. Encounter power effects, however do.--[[User:Taritus|Taritus]] 09:28, 21 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::: thought as much. what say u about the archmage loophole?</div>No problemhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:4e_Classes,_Paragon_Paths,_and_Epic_Destinies&diff=276823Talk:4e Classes, Paragon Paths, and Epic Destinies2008-08-21T16:18:16Z<p>No problem: </p>
<hr />
<div>== All 4e Base Classes ==<br />
<br />
Whats wrong with the "all 4e base classes"? It keeps coming up with an error. Can somebody sort it please? --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 09:10, 20 January 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
:Someone must have made the dpl incorrect or somesuch... The problem is that the page is too large for it to load correctly. I will have [[User:Blue Dragon|Blue Dragon]] take a look. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 10:18, 28 January 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
== Organization ==<br />
<br />
Shouldn't it be Class-Paragon Path-Epic Destiny-NPC instead of duplicating 3e? Regards--[[User:Pwsnafu|Pwsnafu]] 18:29, 6 February 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
:Yes. Incidentally, are epic destinies just a followon from paragon paths or a seperate thing entirely? {{Unsigned|Sam Kay|06:54, 15 February 2008 (MST)}}<br />
<br />
::My understanding is that you choose a Paragon Path at level 11 and an Epic Destiny at level 21. If you look at the Christmas present (the Elf racial entry) the racial feat has a requirement "Heroic Tier", so it doesn't work in Paragon or Epic. I think this to prevent the "epic is too complicated" criticism of 3E. So my understanding is that they are separate things. What we don't know is whether you can multiclass a Paragon Path. Regards --[[User:Pwsnafu|Pwsnafu]] 17:58, 16 February 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
::: Only one of each. One exception is that you give up a paragon path to extend your heroic tier multiclassing, but that's the only exception right now. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 19:28, 9 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::: After-note: NPC classes no longer exist. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 19:29, 9 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== questions ==<br />
<br />
i dont get some things:<br />
:1. wizard. daily spells: u r supposed to begin knowing two daily spells and each time u gain a level that lets u select a daily spell, u choose two daily spells to add to spellbook. fine. now, what happens when u get to replace a daily power? do u learn two new powers from the new level or do u replace any two daily powers u had with two daily powers of ur current level? or something else entirely?<br />
:2. related to 1, what happens when u get ur paragon daily spell at level 20? do u just add it to spellbook or is it known internally like encounter powers? and if u add it to spellbook, do u add another power or ur level or lower as per choosing two daily spells when u learn get to choose new daily spell?<br />
:3. this is more of a bitch about the classes in general: why would paragon tier FORCE me to choose an 11th level encounter power i will be stuck with throughout my entire career as one of my (at most) 4 encounter powers? these are the powers i use most of all. each encounter (usually) starts witht he firing off of encounter powers and i get stuck at level 20+ with a sucky paragon 11th level encounter power which i can never replace and must use.<br />
:4. the paragon path warmage has the lovely daily power "closing spell" which does 3d10 +int mod damage and an additional 5d10 damage if this is the last daily power of the day. very nice and useful. now, the archmage epic path lets u choose 1 daily power to use as an encounter spell at level 30. a few questions arise: 1. what happens if i choose "closing spell" as this power? under what conditions would i get the additional 5d10 damage? 2. would this daily spell take up one of my encounter power slots of daily spells slots, meaning, say i chose daily power X to be an encounter spell (remember, i am level 30). do i get to use power X every encounter but in addition i can use only 3 other daily powers and 4 other encounter powers or can i use 4 daily powers, power X every encounter and another 3 encounter powers? how would that work? plus, if an archmage chooses to be able to cast "closing spell" twice daily, and it is the last daily spell he has left, does he gain the additional 5d10 for both castings or just the second one?<br />
:5. when u attack with an area spell which requires u make an attack, do u make one attack roll which is compared to the relevant defenses of those in the area or do u make an attack roll for each creature in the area?<br />
<br />
:Well, for starters, this isn't a forum, proper spelling is requested, as it's not too hard. Also, sign your posts.<br />
**1. You would take two new spells if you wanted to. If not, pick one, replace, and then you're good. If not pick two, replace two. Simple.<br />
**2. As you can't get any other daily spells from the Paragon tier, you only gain that single spell. There are no level 20 spells.<br />
**3. The book, if you would read it before posting, italicizes to make it more apparent, "All the powers and features you gain from your paragon path come ''in addition'' to your class powers and features, not instead of them."<br />
**4. You answered your own question. It's no longer a daily power if you take it as an Archmage, thus you can never gain the +5d10.<br />
**5. Again, read the book. You make an attack roll for each creature in the area, and one damage roll.--[[User:Taritus|Taritus]] 08:02, 21 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:: <br />
**1. that clarifies it.<br />
**2. i thought perhaps that level or lower, as is customary when choosing new daily spells. lower in this instance since, as u said, there are no 20th level daily spells.<br />
**3. i know that it is supposed to come in addition but! in addition to what?! what is the number supposed to be without it? when going over the character advancement table, i noticed that at level 11, u gain, and i quote "paragon path features; gain 1 paragon path encounter attack power; gain 1 feat". there is no mention of gaining a "regular" encounter power whereas in the column of total powers known, u seem to gain an encounter power and since every time one of the numbers for encounter, daily or utility powers go up u also get a corresponding mention in the powers and features column ("gain one encounter attack power" for example) i had assumed i was fuzzy on something. by the way, the same thing applies to the 12th level utility power. the number for utility power goes up one, the powers and features column states u gain one paragon path utility power and there is NO mention of a gained "regular" utility power. same for level 20 when u gain a paragon daily attack spell. i gather from ur comments that, well, 1 encounter, daily and utility powers of the 4/4/7 i have at level 30, come from paragon path and another utility comes from epic destiny. as i said, this part is me bitching about it. seems i would rather have my own choice of powers and not get stuck at level 27 with an 11th level encounter attack power that i cant replace or retrain.<br />
**4. ok.<br />
**5. i was, indeed, to lazy to look for that part in the entire book. thanks.<br />
<br />
<br />
::now that i read the character advancement table again and more closely, there is nothing to prevent me from replacing an encounter or daily power when the table says i can replace said power. one cannot retrain paragon path powers but i did not find anything that prohibits replacing them. do u know of any such thing?<br />
<br />
:::well, how about this: a 30th level archmage chooses "shape magic" to be his daily spell to be made an encounter spell (archspell feature). this means the archmage can recharge ALL his powers after an encounter and, had he been a warmage in paragon path, can use "closing spell" twice as his last daily spell per encounter thus making him a literal killing machine. i am still trying to choose the daily spell that can be used twice daily for the archmage. suggestions? well, that choice can be made daily so is very flexible.<br />
<br />
::::Your formatting makes this very difficult to read... Oh well. Again, paragon powers are gained in addition to normal powers. Never when you gain a paragon power is there an asterisk marking that you must replace a power. You replace an encounter power at level 10, keeping you at 3, and gain an extra at level 11, increasing it to 4. If as an archmage you take a Daily power as an Encounter power, it is an encounter power, and thus any effects mentioning a daily power to not apply to it. Encounter power effects, however do.--[[User:Taritus|Taritus]] 09:28, 21 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::: thought as much. what say i about the archmage loophole?</div>No problemhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:4e_Classes,_Paragon_Paths,_and_Epic_Destinies&diff=276822Talk:4e Classes, Paragon Paths, and Epic Destinies2008-08-21T16:17:22Z<p>No problem: </p>
<hr />
<div>== All 4e Base Classes ==<br />
<br />
Whats wrong with the "all 4e base classes"? It keeps coming up with an error. Can somebody sort it please? --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 09:10, 20 January 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
:Someone must have made the dpl incorrect or somesuch... The problem is that the page is too large for it to load correctly. I will have [[User:Blue Dragon|Blue Dragon]] take a look. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 10:18, 28 January 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
== Organization ==<br />
<br />
Shouldn't it be Class-Paragon Path-Epic Destiny-NPC instead of duplicating 3e? Regards--[[User:Pwsnafu|Pwsnafu]] 18:29, 6 February 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
:Yes. Incidentally, are epic destinies just a followon from paragon paths or a seperate thing entirely? {{Unsigned|Sam Kay|06:54, 15 February 2008 (MST)}}<br />
<br />
::My understanding is that you choose a Paragon Path at level 11 and an Epic Destiny at level 21. If you look at the Christmas present (the Elf racial entry) the racial feat has a requirement "Heroic Tier", so it doesn't work in Paragon or Epic. I think this to prevent the "epic is too complicated" criticism of 3E. So my understanding is that they are separate things. What we don't know is whether you can multiclass a Paragon Path. Regards --[[User:Pwsnafu|Pwsnafu]] 17:58, 16 February 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
::: Only one of each. One exception is that you give up a paragon path to extend your heroic tier multiclassing, but that's the only exception right now. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 19:28, 9 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::: After-note: NPC classes no longer exist. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 19:29, 9 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== questions ==<br />
<br />
i dont get some things:<br />
:1. wizard. daily spells: u r supposed to begin knowing two daily spells and each time u gain a level that lets u select a daily spell, u choose two daily spells to add to spellbook. fine. now, what happens when u get to replace a daily power? do u learn two new powers from the new level or do u replace any two daily powers u had with two daily powers of ur current level? or something else entirely?<br />
:2. related to 1, what happens when u get ur paragon daily spell at level 20? do u just add it to spellbook or is it known internally like encounter powers? and if u add it to spellbook, do u add another power or ur level or lower as per choosing two daily spells when u learn get to choose new daily spell?<br />
:3. this is more of a bitch about the classes in general: why would paragon tier FORCE me to choose an 11th level encounter power i will be stuck with throughout my entire career as one of my (at most) 4 encounter powers? these are the powers i use most of all. each encounter (usually) starts witht he firing off of encounter powers and i get stuck at level 20+ with a sucky paragon 11th level encounter power which i can never replace and must use.<br />
:4. the paragon path warmage has the lovely daily power "closing spell" which does 3d10 +int mod damage and an additional 5d10 damage if this is the last daily power of the day. very nice and useful. now, the archmage epic path lets u choose 1 daily power to use as an encounter spell at level 30. a few questions arise: 1. what happens if i choose "closing spell" as this power? under what conditions would i get the additional 5d10 damage? 2. would this daily spell take up one of my encounter power slots of daily spells slots, meaning, say i chose daily power X to be an encounter spell (remember, i am level 30). do i get to use power X every encounter but in addition i can use only 3 other daily powers and 4 other encounter powers or can i use 4 daily powers, power X every encounter and another 3 encounter powers? how would that work? plus, if an archmage chooses to be able to cast "closing spell" twice daily, and it is the last daily spell he has left, does he gain the additional 5d10 for both castings or just the second one?<br />
:5. when u attack with an area spell which requires u make an attack, do u make one attack roll which is compared to the relevant defenses of those in the area or do u make an attack roll for each creature in the area?<br />
<br />
:Well, for starters, this isn't a forum, proper spelling is requested, as it's not too hard. Also, sign your posts.<br />
**1. You would take two new spells if you wanted to. If not, pick one, replace, and then you're good. If not pick two, replace two. Simple.<br />
**2. As you can't get any other daily spells from the Paragon tier, you only gain that single spell. There are no level 20 spells.<br />
**3. The book, if you would read it before posting, italicizes to make it more apparent, "All the powers and features you gain from your paragon path come ''in addition'' to your class powers and features, not instead of them."<br />
**4. You answered your own question. It's no longer a daily power if you take it as an Archmage, thus you can never gain the +5d10.<br />
**5. Again, read the book. You make an attack roll for each creature in the area, and one damage roll.--[[User:Taritus|Taritus]] 08:02, 21 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:: <br />
**1. that clarifies it.<br />
**2. i thought perhaps that level or lower, as is customary when choosing new daily spells. lower in this instance since, as u said, there are no 20th level daily spells.<br />
**3. i know that it is supposed to come in addition but! in addition to what?! what is the number supposed to be without it? when going over the character advancement table, i noticed that at level 11, u gain, and i quote "paragon path features; gain 1 paragon path encounter attack power; gain 1 feat". there is no mention of gaining a "regular" encounter power whereas in the column of total powers known, u seem to gain an encounter power and since every time one of the numbers for encounter, daily or utility powers go up u also get a corresponding mention in the powers and features column ("gain one encounter attack power" for example) i had assumed i was fuzzy on something. by the way, the same thing applies to the 12th level utility power. the number for utility power goes up one, the powers and features column states u gain one paragon path utility power and there is NO mention of a gained "regular" utility power. same for level 20 when u gain a paragon daily attack spell. i gather from ur comments that, well, 1 encounter, daily and utility powers of the 4/4/7 i have at level 30, come from paragon path and another utility comes from epic destiny. as i said, this part is me bitching about it. seems i would rather have my own choice of powers and not get stuck at level 27 with an 11th level encounter attack power that i cant replace or retrain.<br />
**4. ok.<br />
**5. i was, indeed, to lazy to look for that part in the entire book. thanks.<br />
<br />
<br />
::now that i read the character advancement table again and more closely, there is nothing to prevent me from replacing an encounter or daily power when the table says i can replace said power. one cannot retrain paragon path powers but i did not find anything that prohibits replacing them. do u know of any such thing?<br />
<br />
:::well, how about this: a 30th level archmage chooses "shape magic" to be his daily spell to be made an encounter spell (archspell feature). this means the archmage can recharge ALL his powers after an encounter and, had he been a warmage in paragon path, can use "closing spell" twice as his last daily spell per encounter thus making him a literal killing machine. i am still trying to choose the daily spell that can be used twice daily for the archmage. suggestions? well, that choice can be made daily so is very flexible.<br />
<br />
::::Your formatting makes this very difficult to read... Oh well. Again, paragon powers are gained in addition to normal powers. Never when you gain a paragon power is there an asterisk marking that you must replace a power. You replace an encounter power at level 10, keeping you at 3, and gain an extra at level 11, increasing it to 4. If as an archmage you take a Daily power as an Encounter power, it is an encounter power, and thus any effects mentioning a daily power to not apply to it. Encounter power effects, however do.--[[User:Taritus|Taritus]] 09:28, 21 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::: thought as much. what say i about the archmage loophole?</div>No problemhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:4e_Classes,_Paragon_Paths,_and_Epic_Destinies&diff=276809Talk:4e Classes, Paragon Paths, and Epic Destinies2008-08-21T15:22:02Z<p>No problem: </p>
<hr />
<div>== All 4e Base Classes ==<br />
<br />
Whats wrong with the "all 4e base classes"? It keeps coming up with an error. Can somebody sort it please? --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 09:10, 20 January 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
:Someone must have made the dpl incorrect or somesuch... The problem is that the page is too large for it to load correctly. I will have [[User:Blue Dragon|Blue Dragon]] take a look. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 10:18, 28 January 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
== Organization ==<br />
<br />
Shouldn't it be Class-Paragon Path-Epic Destiny-NPC instead of duplicating 3e? Regards--[[User:Pwsnafu|Pwsnafu]] 18:29, 6 February 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
:Yes. Incidentally, are epic destinies just a followon from paragon paths or a seperate thing entirely? {{Unsigned|Sam Kay|06:54, 15 February 2008 (MST)}}<br />
<br />
::My understanding is that you choose a Paragon Path at level 11 and an Epic Destiny at level 21. If you look at the Christmas present (the Elf racial entry) the racial feat has a requirement "Heroic Tier", so it doesn't work in Paragon or Epic. I think this to prevent the "epic is too complicated" criticism of 3E. So my understanding is that they are separate things. What we don't know is whether you can multiclass a Paragon Path. Regards --[[User:Pwsnafu|Pwsnafu]] 17:58, 16 February 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
::: Only one of each. One exception is that you give up a paragon path to extend your heroic tier multiclassing, but that's the only exception right now. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 19:28, 9 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::: After-note: NPC classes no longer exist. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 19:29, 9 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== questions ==<br />
<br />
i dont get some things:<br />
:1. wizard. daily spells: u r supposed to begin knowing two daily spells and each time u gain a level that lets u select a daily spell, u choose two daily spells to add to spellbook. fine. now, what happens when u get to replace a daily power? do u learn two new powers from the new level or do u replace any two daily powers u had with two daily powers of ur current level? or something else entirely?<br />
:2. related to 1, what happens when u get ur paragon daily spell at level 20? do u just add it to spellbook or is it known internally like encounter powers? and if u add it to spellbook, do u add another power or ur level or lower as per choosing two daily spells when u learn get to choose new daily spell?<br />
:3. this is more of a bitch about the classes in general: why would paragon tier FORCE me to choose an 11th level encounter power i will be stuck with throughout my entire career as one of my (at most) 4 encounter powers? these are the powers i use most of all. each encounter (usually) starts witht he firing off of encounter powers and i get stuck at level 20+ with a sucky paragon 11th level encounter power which i can never replace and must use.<br />
:4. the paragon path warmage has the lovely daily power "closing spell" which does 3d10 +int mod damage and an additional 5d10 damage if this is the last daily power of the day. very nice and useful. now, the archmage epic path lets u choose 1 daily power to use as an encounter spell at level 30. a few questions arise: 1. what happens if i choose "closing spell" as this power? under what conditions would i get the additional 5d10 damage? 2. would this daily spell take up one of my encounter power slots of daily spells slots, meaning, say i chose daily power X to be an encounter spell (remember, i am level 30). do i get to use power X every encounter but in addition i can use only 3 other daily powers and 4 other encounter powers or can i use 4 daily powers, power X every encounter and another 3 encounter powers? how would that work? plus, if an archmage chooses to be able to cast "closing spell" twice daily, and it is the last daily spell he has left, does he gain the additional 5d10 for both castings or just the second one?<br />
:5. when u attack with an area spell which requires u make an attack, do u make one attack roll which is compared to the relevant defenses of those in the area or do u make an attack roll for each creature in the area?<br />
<br />
:Well, for starters, this isn't a forum, proper spelling is requested, as it's not too hard. Also, sign your posts.<br />
**1. You would take two new spells if you wanted to. If not, pick one, replace, and then you're good. If not pick two, replace two. Simple.<br />
**2. As you can't get any other daily spells from the Paragon tier, you only gain that single spell. There are no level 20 spells.<br />
**3. The book, if you would read it before posting, italicizes to make it more apparent, "All the powers and features you gain from your paragon path come ''in addition'' to your class powers and features, not instead of them."<br />
**4. You answered your own question. It's no longer a daily power if you take it as an Archmage, thus you can never gain the +5d10.<br />
**5. Again, read the book. You make an attack roll for each creature in the area, and one damage roll.--[[User:Taritus|Taritus]] 08:02, 21 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:: <br />
**1. that clarifies it.<br />
**2. i thought perhaps that level or lower, as is customary when choosing new daily spells. lower in this instance since, as u said, there are no 20th level daily spells.<br />
**3. i know that it is supposed to come in addition but! in addition to what?! what is the number supposed to be without it? when going over the character advancement table, i noticed that at level 11, u gain, and i quote "paragon path features; gain 1 paragon path encounter attack power; gain 1 feat". there is no mention of gaining a "regular" encounter power whereas in the column of total powers known, u seem to gain an encounter power and since every time one of the numbers for encounter, daily or utility powers go up u also get a corresponding mention in the powers and features column ("gain one encounter attack power" for example) i had assumed i was fuzzy on something. by the way, the same thing applies to the 12th level utility power. the number for utility power goes up one, the powers and features column states u gain one paragon path utility power and there is NO mention of a gained "regular" utility power. same for level 20 when u gain a paragon daily attack spell. i gather from ur comments that, well, 1 encounter, daily and utility powers of the 4/4/7 i have at level 30, come from paragon path and another utility comes from epic destiny. as i said, this part is me bitching about it. seems i would rather have my own choice of powers and not get stuck at level 27 with an 11th level encounter attack power that i cant replace or retrain.<br />
**4. ok.<br />
**5. i was, indeed, to lazy to look for that part in the entire book. thanks.<br />
<br />
<br />
::now that i read the character advancement table again and more closely, there is nothing to prevent me from replacing an encounter or daily power when the table says i can replace said power. one cannot retrain paragon path powers but i did not find anything that prohibits replacing them. do u know of any such thing?<br />
<br />
:::well, how about this: a 30th level archmage chooses "shape magic" to be his daily spell to be made an encounter spell (archspell feature). this means the archmage can recharge ALL his powers after an encounter and, had he been a warmage in paragon path, can use "closing spell" twice as his last daily spell per encounter thus making him a literal killing machine. i am still trying to choose the daily spell that can be used twice daily for the archmage. suggestions? well, that choice can be made daily so is very flexible.</div>No problemhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:4e_Classes,_Paragon_Paths,_and_Epic_Destinies&diff=276798Talk:4e Classes, Paragon Paths, and Epic Destinies2008-08-21T14:41:32Z<p>No problem: </p>
<hr />
<div>== All 4e Base Classes ==<br />
<br />
Whats wrong with the "all 4e base classes"? It keeps coming up with an error. Can somebody sort it please? --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 09:10, 20 January 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
:Someone must have made the dpl incorrect or somesuch... The problem is that the page is too large for it to load correctly. I will have [[User:Blue Dragon|Blue Dragon]] take a look. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 10:18, 28 January 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
== Organization ==<br />
<br />
Shouldn't it be Class-Paragon Path-Epic Destiny-NPC instead of duplicating 3e? Regards--[[User:Pwsnafu|Pwsnafu]] 18:29, 6 February 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
:Yes. Incidentally, are epic destinies just a followon from paragon paths or a seperate thing entirely? {{Unsigned|Sam Kay|06:54, 15 February 2008 (MST)}}<br />
<br />
::My understanding is that you choose a Paragon Path at level 11 and an Epic Destiny at level 21. If you look at the Christmas present (the Elf racial entry) the racial feat has a requirement "Heroic Tier", so it doesn't work in Paragon or Epic. I think this to prevent the "epic is too complicated" criticism of 3E. So my understanding is that they are separate things. What we don't know is whether you can multiclass a Paragon Path. Regards --[[User:Pwsnafu|Pwsnafu]] 17:58, 16 February 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
::: Only one of each. One exception is that you give up a paragon path to extend your heroic tier multiclassing, but that's the only exception right now. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 19:28, 9 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::: After-note: NPC classes no longer exist. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 19:29, 9 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== questions ==<br />
<br />
i dont get some things:<br />
:1. wizard. daily spells: u r supposed to begin knowing two daily spells and each time u gain a level that lets u select a daily spell, u choose two daily spells to add to spellbook. fine. now, what happens when u get to replace a daily power? do u learn two new powers from the new level or do u replace any two daily powers u had with two daily powers of ur current level? or something else entirely?<br />
:2. related to 1, what happens when u get ur paragon daily spell at level 20? do u just add it to spellbook or is it known internally like encounter powers? and if u add it to spellbook, do u add another power or ur level or lower as per choosing two daily spells when u learn get to choose new daily spell?<br />
:3. this is more of a bitch about the classes in general: why would paragon tier FORCE me to choose an 11th level encounter power i will be stuck with throughout my entire career as one of my (at most) 4 encounter powers? these are the powers i use most of all. each encounter (usually) starts witht he firing off of encounter powers and i get stuck at level 20+ with a sucky paragon 11th level encounter power which i can never replace and must use.<br />
:4. the paragon path warmage has the lovely daily power "closing spell" which does 3d10 +int mod damage and an additional 5d10 damage if this is the last daily power of the day. very nice and useful. now, the archmage epic path lets u choose 1 daily power to use as an encounter spell at level 30. a few questions arise: 1. what happens if i choose "closing spell" as this power? under what conditions would i get the additional 5d10 damage? 2. would this daily spell take up one of my encounter power slots of daily spells slots, meaning, say i chose daily power X to be an encounter spell (remember, i am level 30). do i get to use power X every encounter but in addition i can use only 3 other daily powers and 4 other encounter powers or can i use 4 daily powers, power X every encounter and another 3 encounter powers? how would that work? plus, if an archmage chooses to be able to cast "closing spell" twice daily, and it is the last daily spell he has left, does he gain the additional 5d10 for both castings or just the second one?<br />
:5. when u attack with an area spell which requires u make an attack, do u make one attack roll which is compared to the relevant defenses of those in the area or do u make an attack roll for each creature in the area?<br />
<br />
:Well, for starters, this isn't a forum, proper spelling is requested, as it's not too hard. Also, sign your posts.<br />
**1. You would take two new spells if you wanted to. If not, pick one, replace, and then you're good. If not pick two, replace two. Simple.<br />
**2. As you can't get any other daily spells from the Paragon tier, you only gain that single spell. There are no level 20 spells.<br />
**3. The book, if you would read it before posting, italicizes to make it more apparent, "All the powers and features you gain from your paragon path come ''in addition'' to your class powers and features, not instead of them."<br />
**4. You answered your own question. It's no longer a daily power if you take it as an Archmage, thus you can never gain the +5d10.<br />
**5. Again, read the book. You make an attack roll for each creature in the area, and one damage roll.--[[User:Taritus|Taritus]] 08:02, 21 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:: <br />
**1. that clarifies it.<br />
**2. i thought perhaps that level or lower, as is customary when choosing new daily spells. lower in this instance since, as u said, there are no 20th level daily spells.<br />
**3. i know that it is supposed to come in addition but! in addition to what?! what is the number supposed to be without it? when going over the character advancement table, i noticed that at level 11, u gain, and i quote "paragon path features; gain 1 paragon path encounter attack power; gain 1 feat". there is no mention of gaining a "regular" encounter power whereas in the column of total powers known, u seem to gain an encounter power and since every time one of the numbers for encounter, daily or utility powers go up u also get a corresponding mention in the powers and features column ("gain one encounter attack power" for example) i had assumed i was fuzzy on something. by the way, the same thing applies to the 12th level utility power. the number for utility power goes up one, the powers and features column states u gain one paragon path utility power and there is NO mention of a gained "regular" utility power. same for level 20 when u gain a paragon daily attack spell. i gather from ur comments that, well, 1 encounter, daily and utility powers of the 4/4/7 i have at level 30, come from paragon path and another utility comes from epic destiny. as i said, this part is me bitching about it. seems i would rather have my own choice of powers and not get stuck at level 27 with an 11th level encounter attack power that i cant replace or retrain.<br />
**4. ok.<br />
**5. i was, indeed, to lazy to look for that part in the entire book. thanks.<br />
<br />
<br />
::now that i read the character advancement table again and more closely, there is nothing to prevent me from replacing an encounter or daily power when the table says i can replace said power. one cannot retrain paragon path powers but i did not find anything that prohibits replacing them. do u know of any such thing?</div>No problemhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:4e_Classes,_Paragon_Paths,_and_Epic_Destinies&diff=276796Talk:4e Classes, Paragon Paths, and Epic Destinies2008-08-21T14:41:09Z<p>No problem: </p>
<hr />
<div>== All 4e Base Classes ==<br />
<br />
Whats wrong with the "all 4e base classes"? It keeps coming up with an error. Can somebody sort it please? --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 09:10, 20 January 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
:Someone must have made the dpl incorrect or somesuch... The problem is that the page is too large for it to load correctly. I will have [[User:Blue Dragon|Blue Dragon]] take a look. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 10:18, 28 January 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
== Organization ==<br />
<br />
Shouldn't it be Class-Paragon Path-Epic Destiny-NPC instead of duplicating 3e? Regards--[[User:Pwsnafu|Pwsnafu]] 18:29, 6 February 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
:Yes. Incidentally, are epic destinies just a followon from paragon paths or a seperate thing entirely? {{Unsigned|Sam Kay|06:54, 15 February 2008 (MST)}}<br />
<br />
::My understanding is that you choose a Paragon Path at level 11 and an Epic Destiny at level 21. If you look at the Christmas present (the Elf racial entry) the racial feat has a requirement "Heroic Tier", so it doesn't work in Paragon or Epic. I think this to prevent the "epic is too complicated" criticism of 3E. So my understanding is that they are separate things. What we don't know is whether you can multiclass a Paragon Path. Regards --[[User:Pwsnafu|Pwsnafu]] 17:58, 16 February 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
::: Only one of each. One exception is that you give up a paragon path to extend your heroic tier multiclassing, but that's the only exception right now. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 19:28, 9 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::: After-note: NPC classes no longer exist. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 19:29, 9 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== questions ==<br />
<br />
i dont get some things:<br />
:1. wizard. daily spells: u r supposed to begin knowing two daily spells and each time u gain a level that lets u select a daily spell, u choose two daily spells to add to spellbook. fine. now, what happens when u get to replace a daily power? do u learn two new powers from the new level or do u replace any two daily powers u had with two daily powers of ur current level? or something else entirely?<br />
:2. related to 1, what happens when u get ur paragon daily spell at level 20? do u just add it to spellbook or is it known internally like encounter powers? and if u add it to spellbook, do u add another power or ur level or lower as per choosing two daily spells when u learn get to choose new daily spell?<br />
:3. this is more of a bitch about the classes in general: why would paragon tier FORCE me to choose an 11th level encounter power i will be stuck with throughout my entire career as one of my (at most) 4 encounter powers? these are the powers i use most of all. each encounter (usually) starts witht he firing off of encounter powers and i get stuck at level 20+ with a sucky paragon 11th level encounter power which i can never replace and must use.<br />
:4. the paragon path warmage has the lovely daily power "closing spell" which does 3d10 +int mod damage and an additional 5d10 damage if this is the last daily power of the day. very nice and useful. now, the archmage epic path lets u choose 1 daily power to use as an encounter spell at level 30. a few questions arise: 1. what happens if i choose "closing spell" as this power? under what conditions would i get the additional 5d10 damage? 2. would this daily spell take up one of my encounter power slots of daily spells slots, meaning, say i chose daily power X to be an encounter spell (remember, i am level 30). do i get to use power X every encounter but in addition i can use only 3 other daily powers and 4 other encounter powers or can i use 4 daily powers, power X every encounter and another 3 encounter powers? how would that work? plus, if an archmage chooses to be able to cast "closing spell" twice daily, and it is the last daily spell he has left, does he gain the additional 5d10 for both castings or just the second one?<br />
:5. when u attack with an area spell which requires u make an attack, do u make one attack roll which is compared to the relevant defenses of those in the area or do u make an attack roll for each creature in the area?<br />
<br />
:Well, for starters, this isn't a forum, proper spelling is requested, as it's not too hard. Also, sign your posts.<br />
**1. You would take two new spells if you wanted to. If not, pick one, replace, and then you're good. If not pick two, replace two. Simple.<br />
**2. As you can't get any other daily spells from the Paragon tier, you only gain that single spell. There are no level 20 spells.<br />
**3. The book, if you would read it before posting, italicizes to make it more apparent, "All the powers and features you gain from your paragon path come ''in addition'' to your class powers and features, not instead of them."<br />
**4. You answered your own question. It's no longer a daily power if you take it as an Archmage, thus you can never gain the +5d10.<br />
**5. Again, read the book. You make an attack roll for each creature in the area, and one damage roll.--[[User:Taritus|Taritus]] 08:02, 21 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:: <br />
**1. that clarifies it.<br />
**2. i thought perhaps that level or lower, as is customary when choosing new daily spells. lower in this instance since, as u said, there are no 20th level daily spells.<br />
**3. i know that it is supposed to come in addition but! in addition to what?! what is the number supposed to be without it? when going over the character advancement table, i noticed that at level 11, u gain, and i quote "paragon path features; gain 1 paragon path encounter attack power; gain 1 feat". there is no mention of gaining a "regular" encounter power whereas in the column of total powers known, u seem to gain an encounter power and since every time one of the numbers for encounter, daily or utility powers go up u also get a corresponding mention in the powers and features column ("gain one encounter attack power" for example) i had assumed i was fuzzy on something. by the way, the same thing applies to the 12th level utility power. the number for utility power goes up one, the powers and features column states u gain one paragon path utility power and there is NO mention of a gained "regular" utility power. same for level 20 when u gain a paragon daily attack spell. i gather from ur comments that, well, 1 encounter, daily and utility powers of the 4/4/7 i have at level 30, come from paragon path and another utility comes from epic destiny. as i said, this part is me bitching about it. seems i would rather have my own choice of powers and not get stuck at level 27 with an 11th level encounter attack power that i cant replace or retrain.<br />
**4. ok.<br />
**5. i was, indeed, to lazy to look for that part in the entire book. thanks.<br />
<br />
<br />
::now that i read the character advancement table, there is nothing to prevent me from replacing an encounter or daily power when the table says i can replace said power. one cannot retrain paragon path powers but i did not find anything that prohibits replacing them. do u know of any such thing?</div>No problemhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:4e_Classes,_Paragon_Paths,_and_Epic_Destinies&diff=276793Talk:4e Classes, Paragon Paths, and Epic Destinies2008-08-21T14:40:39Z<p>No problem: </p>
<hr />
<div>== All 4e Base Classes ==<br />
<br />
Whats wrong with the "all 4e base classes"? It keeps coming up with an error. Can somebody sort it please? --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 09:10, 20 January 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
:Someone must have made the dpl incorrect or somesuch... The problem is that the page is too large for it to load correctly. I will have [[User:Blue Dragon|Blue Dragon]] take a look. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 10:18, 28 January 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
== Organization ==<br />
<br />
Shouldn't it be Class-Paragon Path-Epic Destiny-NPC instead of duplicating 3e? Regards--[[User:Pwsnafu|Pwsnafu]] 18:29, 6 February 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
:Yes. Incidentally, are epic destinies just a followon from paragon paths or a seperate thing entirely? {{Unsigned|Sam Kay|06:54, 15 February 2008 (MST)}}<br />
<br />
::My understanding is that you choose a Paragon Path at level 11 and an Epic Destiny at level 21. If you look at the Christmas present (the Elf racial entry) the racial feat has a requirement "Heroic Tier", so it doesn't work in Paragon or Epic. I think this to prevent the "epic is too complicated" criticism of 3E. So my understanding is that they are separate things. What we don't know is whether you can multiclass a Paragon Path. Regards --[[User:Pwsnafu|Pwsnafu]] 17:58, 16 February 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
::: Only one of each. One exception is that you give up a paragon path to extend your heroic tier multiclassing, but that's the only exception right now. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 19:28, 9 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::: After-note: NPC classes no longer exist. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 19:29, 9 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== questions ==<br />
<br />
i dont get some things:<br />
:1. wizard. daily spells: u r supposed to begin knowing two daily spells and each time u gain a level that lets u select a daily spell, u choose two daily spells to add to spellbook. fine. now, what happens when u get to replace a daily power? do u learn two new powers from the new level or do u replace any two daily powers u had with two daily powers of ur current level? or something else entirely?<br />
:2. related to 1, what happens when u get ur paragon daily spell at level 20? do u just add it to spellbook or is it known internally like encounter powers? and if u add it to spellbook, do u add another power or ur level or lower as per choosing two daily spells when u learn get to choose new daily spell?<br />
:3. this is more of a bitch about the classes in general: why would paragon tier FORCE me to choose an 11th level encounter power i will be stuck with throughout my entire career as one of my (at most) 4 encounter powers? these are the powers i use most of all. each encounter (usually) starts witht he firing off of encounter powers and i get stuck at level 20+ with a sucky paragon 11th level encounter power which i can never replace and must use.<br />
:4. the paragon path warmage has the lovely daily power "closing spell" which does 3d10 +int mod damage and an additional 5d10 damage if this is the last daily power of the day. very nice and useful. now, the archmage epic path lets u choose 1 daily power to use as an encounter spell at level 30. a few questions arise: 1. what happens if i choose "closing spell" as this power? under what conditions would i get the additional 5d10 damage? 2. would this daily spell take up one of my encounter power slots of daily spells slots, meaning, say i chose daily power X to be an encounter spell (remember, i am level 30). do i get to use power X every encounter but in addition i can use only 3 other daily powers and 4 other encounter powers or can i use 4 daily powers, power X every encounter and another 3 encounter powers? how would that work? plus, if an archmage chooses to be able to cast "closing spell" twice daily, and it is the last daily spell he has left, does he gain the additional 5d10 for both castings or just the second one?<br />
:5. when u attack with an area spell which requires u make an attack, do u make one attack roll which is compared to the relevant defenses of those in the area or do u make an attack roll for each creature in the area?<br />
<br />
:Well, for starters, this isn't a forum, proper spelling is requested, as it's not too hard. Also, sign your posts.<br />
**1. You would take two new spells if you wanted to. If not, pick one, replace, and then you're good. If not pick two, replace two. Simple.<br />
**2. As you can't get any other daily spells from the Paragon tier, you only gain that single spell. There are no level 20 spells.<br />
**3. The book, if you would read it before posting, italicizes to make it more apparent, "All the powers and features you gain from your paragon path come ''in addition'' to your class powers and features, not instead of them."<br />
**4. You answered your own question. It's no longer a daily power if you take it as an Archmage, thus you can never gain the +5d10.<br />
**5. Again, read the book. You make an attack roll for each creature in the area, and one damage roll.--[[User:Taritus|Taritus]] 08:02, 21 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:: <br />
**1. that clarifies it.<br />
**2. i thought perhaps that level or lower, as is customary when choosing new daily spells. lower in this instance since, as u said, there are no 20th level daily spells.<br />
**3. i know that it is supposed to come in addition but! in addition to what?! what is the number supposed to be without it? when going over the character advancement table, i noticed that at level 11, u gain, and i quote "paragon path features; gain 1 paragon path encounter attack power; gain 1 feat". there is no mention of gaining a "regular" encounter power whereas in the column of total powers known, u seem to gain an encounter power and since every time one of the numbers for encounter, daily or utility powers go up u also get a corresponding mention in the powers and features column ("gain one encounter attack power" for example) i had assumed i was fuzzy on something. by the way, the same thing applies to the 12th level utility power. the number for utility power goes up one, the powers and features column states u gain one paragon path utility power and there is NO mention of a gained "regular" utility power. same for level 20 when u gain a paragon daily attack spell. i gather from ur comments that, well, 1 encounter, daily and utility powers of the 4/4/7 i have at level 30, come from paragon path and another utility comes from epic destiny. as i said, this part is me bitching about it. seems i would rather have my own choice of powers and not get stuck at level 27 with an 11th level encounter attack power that i cant replace or retrain.<br />
**4. ok.<br />
**5. i was, indeed, to lazy to look for that part in the entire book. thanks.<br />
::now that i read the character advancement table, there is nothing to prevent me from replacing an encounter or daily power when the table says i can replace said power. one cannot retrain paragon path powers but i did not find anything that prohibits replacing them. do u know of any such thing?</div>No problemhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:4e_Classes,_Paragon_Paths,_and_Epic_Destinies&diff=276789Talk:4e Classes, Paragon Paths, and Epic Destinies2008-08-21T14:36:13Z<p>No problem: </p>
<hr />
<div>== All 4e Base Classes ==<br />
<br />
Whats wrong with the "all 4e base classes"? It keeps coming up with an error. Can somebody sort it please? --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 09:10, 20 January 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
:Someone must have made the dpl incorrect or somesuch... The problem is that the page is too large for it to load correctly. I will have [[User:Blue Dragon|Blue Dragon]] take a look. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 10:18, 28 January 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
== Organization ==<br />
<br />
Shouldn't it be Class-Paragon Path-Epic Destiny-NPC instead of duplicating 3e? Regards--[[User:Pwsnafu|Pwsnafu]] 18:29, 6 February 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
:Yes. Incidentally, are epic destinies just a followon from paragon paths or a seperate thing entirely? {{Unsigned|Sam Kay|06:54, 15 February 2008 (MST)}}<br />
<br />
::My understanding is that you choose a Paragon Path at level 11 and an Epic Destiny at level 21. If you look at the Christmas present (the Elf racial entry) the racial feat has a requirement "Heroic Tier", so it doesn't work in Paragon or Epic. I think this to prevent the "epic is too complicated" criticism of 3E. So my understanding is that they are separate things. What we don't know is whether you can multiclass a Paragon Path. Regards --[[User:Pwsnafu|Pwsnafu]] 17:58, 16 February 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
::: Only one of each. One exception is that you give up a paragon path to extend your heroic tier multiclassing, but that's the only exception right now. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 19:28, 9 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::: After-note: NPC classes no longer exist. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 19:29, 9 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== questions ==<br />
<br />
i dont get some things:<br />
:1. wizard. daily spells: u r supposed to begin knowing two daily spells and each time u gain a level that lets u select a daily spell, u choose two daily spells to add to spellbook. fine. now, what happens when u get to replace a daily power? do u learn two new powers from the new level or do u replace any two daily powers u had with two daily powers of ur current level? or something else entirely?<br />
:2. related to 1, what happens when u get ur paragon daily spell at level 20? do u just add it to spellbook or is it known internally like encounter powers? and if u add it to spellbook, do u add another power or ur level or lower as per choosing two daily spells when u learn get to choose new daily spell?<br />
:3. this is more of a bitch about the classes in general: why would paragon tier FORCE me to choose an 11th level encounter power i will be stuck with throughout my entire career as one of my (at most) 4 encounter powers? these are the powers i use most of all. each encounter (usually) starts witht he firing off of encounter powers and i get stuck at level 20+ with a sucky paragon 11th level encounter power which i can never replace and must use.<br />
:4. the paragon path warmage has the lovely daily power "closing spell" which does 3d10 +int mod damage and an additional 5d10 damage if this is the last daily power of the day. very nice and useful. now, the archmage epic path lets u choose 1 daily power to use as an encounter spell at level 30. a few questions arise: 1. what happens if i choose "closing spell" as this power? under what conditions would i get the additional 5d10 damage? 2. would this daily spell take up one of my encounter power slots of daily spells slots, meaning, say i chose daily power X to be an encounter spell (remember, i am level 30). do i get to use power X every encounter but in addition i can use only 3 other daily powers and 4 other encounter powers or can i use 4 daily powers, power X every encounter and another 3 encounter powers? how would that work? plus, if an archmage chooses to be able to cast "closing spell" twice daily, and it is the last daily spell he has left, does he gain the additional 5d10 for both castings or just the second one?<br />
:5. when u attack with an area spell which requires u make an attack, do u make one attack roll which is compared to the relevant defenses of those in the area or do u make an attack roll for each creature in the area?<br />
<br />
:Well, for starters, this isn't a forum, proper spelling is requested, as it's not too hard. Also, sign your posts.<br />
**1. You would take two new spells if you wanted to. If not, pick one, replace, and then you're good. If not pick two, replace two. Simple.<br />
**2. As you can't get any other daily spells from the Paragon tier, you only gain that single spell. There are no level 20 spells.<br />
**3. The book, if you would read it before posting, italicizes to make it more apparent, "All the powers and features you gain from your paragon path come ''in addition'' to your class powers and features, not instead of them."<br />
**4. You answered your own question. It's no longer a daily power if you take it as an Archmage, thus you can never gain the +5d10.<br />
**5. Again, read the book. You make an attack roll for each creature in the area, and one damage roll.--[[User:Taritus|Taritus]] 08:02, 21 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:: <br />
**1. that clarifies it.<br />
**2. i thought perhaps that level or lower, as is customary when choosing new daily spells. lower in this instance since, as u said, there are no 20th level daily spells.<br />
**3. i know that it is supposed to come in addition but! in addition to what?! what is the number supposed to be without it? when going over the character advancement table, i noticed that at level 11, u gain, and i quote "paragon path features; gain 1 paragon path encounter attack power; gain 1 feat". there is no mention of gaining a "regular" encounter power whereas in the column of total powers known, u seem to gain an encounter power and since every time one of the numbers for encounter, daily or utility powers go up u also get a corresponding mention in the powers and features column ("gain one encounter attack power" for example) i had assumed i was fuzzy on something. by the way, the same thing applies to the 12th level utility power. the number for utility power goes up one, the powers and features column states u gain one paragon path utility power and there is NO mention of a gained "regular" utility power. same for level 20 when u gain a paragon daily attack spell. i gather from ur comments that, well, 1 encounter, daily and utility powers of the 4/4/7 i have at level 30, come from paragon path and another utility comes from epic destiny. as i said, this part is me bitching about it. seems i would rather have my own choice of powers and not get stuck at level 27 with an 11th level encounter attack power that i cant replace or retrain.<br />
**4. ok.<br />
**5. i was, indeed, to lazy to look for that part in the entire book. thanks.</div>No problemhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:4e_Classes,_Paragon_Paths,_and_Epic_Destinies&diff=276758Talk:4e Classes, Paragon Paths, and Epic Destinies2008-08-21T10:21:36Z<p>No problem: </p>
<hr />
<div>== All 4e Base Classes ==<br />
<br />
Whats wrong with the "all 4e base classes"? It keeps coming up with an error. Can somebody sort it please? --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 09:10, 20 January 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
:Someone must have made the dpl incorrect or somesuch... The problem is that the page is too large for it to load correctly. I will have [[User:Blue Dragon|Blue Dragon]] take a look. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 10:18, 28 January 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
== Organization ==<br />
<br />
Shouldn't it be Class-Paragon Path-Epic Destiny-NPC instead of duplicating 3e? Regards--[[User:Pwsnafu|Pwsnafu]] 18:29, 6 February 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
:Yes. Incidentally, are epic destinies just a followon from paragon paths or a seperate thing entirely? {{Unsigned|Sam Kay|06:54, 15 February 2008 (MST)}}<br />
<br />
::My understanding is that you choose a Paragon Path at level 11 and an Epic Destiny at level 21. If you look at the Christmas present (the Elf racial entry) the racial feat has a requirement "Heroic Tier", so it doesn't work in Paragon or Epic. I think this to prevent the "epic is too complicated" criticism of 3E. So my understanding is that they are separate things. What we don't know is whether you can multiclass a Paragon Path. Regards --[[User:Pwsnafu|Pwsnafu]] 17:58, 16 February 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
::: Only one of each. One exception is that you give up a paragon path to extend your heroic tier multiclassing, but that's the only exception right now. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 19:28, 9 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::: After-note: NPC classes no longer exist. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 19:29, 9 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== questions ==<br />
<br />
i dont get some things:<br />
:1. wizard. daily spells: u r supposed to begin knowing two daily spells and each time u gain a level that lets u select a daily spell, u choose two daily spells to add to spellbook. fine. now, what happens when u get to replace a daily power? do u learn two new powers from the new level or do u replace any two daily powers u had with two daily powers of ur current level? or something else entirely?<br />
:2. related to 1, what happens when u get ur paragon daily spell at level 20? do u just add it to spellbook or is it known internally like encounter powers? and if u add it to spellbook, do u add another power or ur level or lower as per choosing two daily spells when u learn get to choose new daily spell?<br />
:3. this is more of a bitch about the classes in general: why would paragon tier FORCE me to choose an 11th level encounter power i will be stuck with throughout my entire career as one of my (at most) 4 encounter powers? these are the powers i use most of all. each encounter (usually) starts witht he firing off of encounter powers and i get stuck at level 20+ with a sucky paragon 11th level encounter power which i can never replace and must use.<br />
:4. the paragon path warmage has the lovely daily power "closing spell" which does 3d10 +int mod damage and an additional 5d10 damage if this is the last daily power of the day. very nice and useful. now, the archmage epic path lets u choose 1 daily power to use as an encounter spell at level 30. a few questions arise: 1. what happens if i choose "closing spell" as this power? under what conditions would i get the additional 5d10 damage? 2. would this daily spell take up one of my encounter power slots of daily spells slots, meaning, say i chose daily power X to be an encounter spell (remember, i am level 30). do i get to use power X every encounter but in addition i can use only 3 other daily powers and 4 other encounter powers or can i use 4 daily powers, power X every encounter and another 3 encounter powers? how would that work? plus, if an archmage chooses to be able to cast "closing spell" twice daily, and it is the last daily spell he has left, does he gain the additional 5d10 for both castings or just the second one?<br />
:5. when u attack with an area spell which requires u make an attack, do u make one attack roll which is compared to the relevant defenses of those in the area or do u make an attack roll for each creature in the area?</div>No problemhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:4e_Classes,_Paragon_Paths,_and_Epic_Destinies&diff=276757Talk:4e Classes, Paragon Paths, and Epic Destinies2008-08-21T10:11:55Z<p>No problem: </p>
<hr />
<div>== All 4e Base Classes ==<br />
<br />
Whats wrong with the "all 4e base classes"? It keeps coming up with an error. Can somebody sort it please? --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 09:10, 20 January 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
:Someone must have made the dpl incorrect or somesuch... The problem is that the page is too large for it to load correctly. I will have [[User:Blue Dragon|Blue Dragon]] take a look. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 10:18, 28 January 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
== Organization ==<br />
<br />
Shouldn't it be Class-Paragon Path-Epic Destiny-NPC instead of duplicating 3e? Regards--[[User:Pwsnafu|Pwsnafu]] 18:29, 6 February 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
:Yes. Incidentally, are epic destinies just a followon from paragon paths or a seperate thing entirely? {{Unsigned|Sam Kay|06:54, 15 February 2008 (MST)}}<br />
<br />
::My understanding is that you choose a Paragon Path at level 11 and an Epic Destiny at level 21. If you look at the Christmas present (the Elf racial entry) the racial feat has a requirement "Heroic Tier", so it doesn't work in Paragon or Epic. I think this to prevent the "epic is too complicated" criticism of 3E. So my understanding is that they are separate things. What we don't know is whether you can multiclass a Paragon Path. Regards --[[User:Pwsnafu|Pwsnafu]] 17:58, 16 February 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
::: Only one of each. One exception is that you give up a paragon path to extend your heroic tier multiclassing, but that's the only exception right now. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 19:28, 9 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::: After-note: NPC classes no longer exist. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 19:29, 9 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== questions ==<br />
<br />
i dont get some things:<br />
:1. wizard. daily spells: u r supposed to begin knowing two daily spells and each time u gain a level that lets u select a daily spell, u choose two daily spells to add to spellbook. fine. now, what happens when u get to replace a daily power? do u learn two new powers from the new level or do u replace any two daily powers u had with two daily powers of ur current level? or something else entirely?<br />
:2. related to 1, what happens when u get ur paragon daily spell at level 20? do u just add it to spellbook or is it known internally like encounter powers? and if u add it to spellbook, do u add another power or ur level or lower as per choosing two daily spells when u learn get to choose new daily spell?<br />
:3. this is more of a bitch about the classes in general: why would paragon tier FORCE me to choose an 11th level encounter power i will be stuck with throughout my entire career as one of my (at most) 4 encounter powers? these are the powers i use most of all. each encounter (usually) starts witht he firing off of encounter powers and i get stuck at level 20+ with a sucky paragon 11th level encounter power which i can never replace and must use.<br />
:4. the paragon path warmage has the lovely daily power "closing spell" which does 3d10 +int mod damage and an additional 5d10 damage if this is the last daily power of the day. very nice and useful. now, the archmage epic path lets u choose 1 daily power to use as an encounter spell at level 30. a few questions arise: 1. what happens if i choose "closing spell" as this power? under what conditions would i get the additional 5d10 damage? 2. would this daily spell take up one of my encounter power slots of daily spells slots, meaning, say i chose daily power X to be an encounter spell (remember, i am level 30). do i get to use power X every encounter but in addition i can use only 3 other daily powers and 4 other encounter powers or can i use 4 daily powers, power X every encounter and another 3 encounter powers? how would that work?<br />
:5. when u attack with an area spell which requires u make an attack, do u make one attack roll which is compared to the relevant defenses of those in the area or do u make an attack roll for each creature in the area?</div>No problemhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:4e_Classes,_Paragon_Paths,_and_Epic_Destinies&diff=276756Talk:4e Classes, Paragon Paths, and Epic Destinies2008-08-21T10:01:36Z<p>No problem: </p>
<hr />
<div>== All 4e Base Classes ==<br />
<br />
Whats wrong with the "all 4e base classes"? It keeps coming up with an error. Can somebody sort it please? --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 09:10, 20 January 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
:Someone must have made the dpl incorrect or somesuch... The problem is that the page is too large for it to load correctly. I will have [[User:Blue Dragon|Blue Dragon]] take a look. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 10:18, 28 January 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
== Organization ==<br />
<br />
Shouldn't it be Class-Paragon Path-Epic Destiny-NPC instead of duplicating 3e? Regards--[[User:Pwsnafu|Pwsnafu]] 18:29, 6 February 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
:Yes. Incidentally, are epic destinies just a followon from paragon paths or a seperate thing entirely? {{Unsigned|Sam Kay|06:54, 15 February 2008 (MST)}}<br />
<br />
::My understanding is that you choose a Paragon Path at level 11 and an Epic Destiny at level 21. If you look at the Christmas present (the Elf racial entry) the racial feat has a requirement "Heroic Tier", so it doesn't work in Paragon or Epic. I think this to prevent the "epic is too complicated" criticism of 3E. So my understanding is that they are separate things. What we don't know is whether you can multiclass a Paragon Path. Regards --[[User:Pwsnafu|Pwsnafu]] 17:58, 16 February 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
::: Only one of each. One exception is that you give up a paragon path to extend your heroic tier multiclassing, but that's the only exception right now. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 19:28, 9 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::: After-note: NPC classes no longer exist. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 19:29, 9 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== questions ==<br />
<br />
i dont get some things:<br />
:1. wizard. daily spells: u r supposed to begin knowing two daily spells and each time u gain a level that lets u select a daily spell, u choose two daily spells to add to spellbook. fine. now, what happens when u get to replace a daily power? do u learn two new powers from the new level or do u replace any two daily powers u had with two daily powers of ur current level? or something else entirely?<br />
:2. related to 1, what happens when u get ur paragon daily spell at level 20? do u just add it to spellbook or is it known internally like encounter powers? and if u add it to spellbook, do u add another power or ur level or lower as per choosing two daily spells when u learn get to choose new daily spell?<br />
:3. this is more of a bitch about the classes in general: why would paragon tier FORCE me to choose an 11th level encounter power i will be stuck with throughout my entire career as one of my (at most) 4 encounter powers? these are the powers i use most of all. each encounter (usually) starts witht he firing off of encounter powers and i get stuck at level 20+ with a sucky paragon 11th level encounter power which i can never replace and must use.<br />
:4. the paragon path warmage has the lovely daily power "closing spell" which does 3d10 +int mod damage and an additional 5d10 damage if this is the last daily power of the day. very nice and useful. now, the archmage epic path lets u choose 1 daily power to use as an encounter spell at level 30. a few questions arise: 1. what happens if i choose "closing spell" as this power? under what conditions would i get the additional 5d10 damage? 2. would this daily spell take up one of my encounter power slots of daily spells slots, meaning, say i chose daily power X to be an encounter spell (remember, i am level 30). do i get to use power X every encounter but in addition i can use only 3 other daily powers and 4 other encounter powers or can i use 4 daily powers, power X every encounter and another 3 encounter powers? how would that work?</div>No problemhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:4e_Classes,_Paragon_Paths,_and_Epic_Destinies&diff=276755Talk:4e Classes, Paragon Paths, and Epic Destinies2008-08-21T10:00:55Z<p>No problem: New section: questions</p>
<hr />
<div>== All 4e Base Classes ==<br />
<br />
Whats wrong with the "all 4e base classes"? It keeps coming up with an error. Can somebody sort it please? --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 09:10, 20 January 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
:Someone must have made the dpl incorrect or somesuch... The problem is that the page is too large for it to load correctly. I will have [[User:Blue Dragon|Blue Dragon]] take a look. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 10:18, 28 January 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
== Organization ==<br />
<br />
Shouldn't it be Class-Paragon Path-Epic Destiny-NPC instead of duplicating 3e? Regards--[[User:Pwsnafu|Pwsnafu]] 18:29, 6 February 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
:Yes. Incidentally, are epic destinies just a followon from paragon paths or a seperate thing entirely? {{Unsigned|Sam Kay|06:54, 15 February 2008 (MST)}}<br />
<br />
::My understanding is that you choose a Paragon Path at level 11 and an Epic Destiny at level 21. If you look at the Christmas present (the Elf racial entry) the racial feat has a requirement "Heroic Tier", so it doesn't work in Paragon or Epic. I think this to prevent the "epic is too complicated" criticism of 3E. So my understanding is that they are separate things. What we don't know is whether you can multiclass a Paragon Path. Regards --[[User:Pwsnafu|Pwsnafu]] 17:58, 16 February 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
::: Only one of each. One exception is that you give up a paragon path to extend your heroic tier multiclassing, but that's the only exception right now. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 19:28, 9 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::: After-note: NPC classes no longer exist. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 19:29, 9 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== questions ==<br />
<br />
i dont get some things:<br />
1. wizard. daily spells: u r supposed to begin knowing two daily spells and each time u gain a level that lets u select a daily spell, u choose two daily spells to add to spellbook. fine. now, what happens when u get to replace a daily power? do u learn two new powers from the new level or do u replace any two daily powers u had with two daily powers of ur current level? or something else entirely?<br />
2. related to 1, what happens when u get ur paragon daily spell at level 20? do u just add it to spellbook or is it known internally like encounter powers? and if u add it to spellbook, do u add another power or ur level or lower as per choosing two daily spells when u learn get to choose new daily spell?<br />
3. this is more of a bitch about the classes in general: why would paragon tier FORCE me to choose an 11th level encounter power i will be stuck with throughout my entire career as one of my (at most) 4 encounter powers? these are the powers i use most of all. each encounter (usually) starts witht he firing off of encounter powers and i get stuck at level 20+ with a sucky paragon 11th level encounter power which i can never replace and must use.<br />
4. the paragon path warmage has the lovely daily power "closing spell" which does 3d10 +int mod damage and an additional 5d10 damage if this is the last daily power of the day. very nice and useful. now, the archmage epic path lets u choose 1 daily power to use as an encounter spell at level 30. a few questions arise: 1. what happens if i choose "closing spell" as this power? under what conditions would i get the additional 5d10 damage? 2. would this daily spell take up one of my encounter power slots of daily spells slots, meaning, say i chose daily power X to be an encounter spell (remember, i am level 30). do i get to use power X every encounter but in addition i can use only 3 other daily powers and 4 other encounter powers or can i use 4 daily powers, power X every encounter and another 3 encounter powers? how would that work?</div>No problemhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:4e_Homebrew&diff=271336Talk:4e Homebrew2008-07-31T11:56:28Z<p>No problem: New section: 4e: </p>
<hr />
<div>==4e SRD==<br />
Will there be any material of the kind put up on this wiki? [[User:Noname|Noname]] 11:08, 1 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:I think so, but then I can't really say. However, I will note that the 4e SRD will be quite different from the 3.5e one. The 4e SRD will essentially give out page numbers and nothing else. — [[User:OptimizationFanatic|OptimizationFanatic]] <small>([[User talk:OptimizationFanatic|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/OptimizationFanatic|contrib]])</small> 14:27, 1 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::I believe that the 4e SRD will give you information to construct 4e items. That is, it will be a design guide. For example, what does a striker look like, or how powerful should a 5th level power be. That is, the rules behind the rules. However, we don't know that yet. I may be wrong. --[[User:Dmilewski|Dmilewski]] 06:58, 2 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::[http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/SRD.pdf The SRD] isn't even that anymore. Now it's... (brace yourselves) a list of terms that people are allowed to use for homebrew or GSL publishing. Not even page numbers. *sighs* Oh, and nobody's allowed to host it except for WotC. — [[User:OptimizationFanatic|OptimizationFanatic]] <small>([[User talk:OptimizationFanatic|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/OptimizationFanatic|contrib]])</small> 19:31, 21 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::Oh well... I have made a [[4e Glossary (4e Other)|glossary]] for "SRD" linking... --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 10:33, 22 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== Monsters and NPCs ==<br />
<br />
WotC is (further) blurring the lines between monsters and NPCs. I think the two pages should be combined. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 19:38, 9 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:Agree. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 23:20, 3 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== Quality Control ==<br />
<br />
I feel that much of the material currently being added to the 4e section of D&D Wiki is less than desirable. What are everyone else's thoughts on this? It feels like the start of the revised third edition section again &mdash; a lot of garbage being added which is barely formatted. Does anyone else even think this is an issue? If so, anyone have some good ideas as to how we can correct this problem? Don't get me wrong though, some great things are being added. One I have seen is the [[Aasimar (4e Race)]]. Also, if anyone is interested, [{{SERVER}}{{localurl:Special:Recentchangeslinked/Category:4e}} here] is the RC for 4e. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 23:19, 3 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:I agree, though I am still getting a handle on 4e formatting. The fact I'm not "upgrading" to D&D Vista aside, the formatting drives me up the wall. Once I have a better handle on what everything means, I can chip in my part. Until then I'll try and just focus on removing obvious dead trash entries. -- [[User:Eiji|Eiji]] 23:28, 3 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::What is really getting me is things that are becoming standard in the revised third edition section, such as templates for the breadcrumb, forms for adding new information, SMW information present with spells, races, etc, dpl2's instead of dpl's, and things like that, have yet to be implemented into the "''new''" 4e section. I feel that not only do we need to work on the actual content of this section, we also need to work on the structure of this section. Even things like categories, which should have been discussed and decided on earlier, are a complete mess. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 23:40, 3 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::Agreed on all points. I'm still trying to get a handle on the formats, too. I think structure/navigation should be handled first, then we can tackle the format of the individual pages. One issue at a time. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 23:46, 3 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::Change that. Navigation, then categories, then individual page layouts. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 23:48, 3 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::::Here is what I think we need to work on (not necessarily in this order): Navigation, categories, individual page layouts, adding new information (Forms or preloads? Where can we use which?), creating templates, and content control (I feel that things with little information, or information that is very unbalanced should be discussed for deletion &mdash; via [[Template:Delete]]). Thoughts? --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 00:03, 4 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::::I aggree, although I think we need to add templates and set up a standard format for everything before we can inprove individual pages. Also, could we add the 4e homebrew section to the sidebar thing (with the links to the various sections). --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 04:34, 4 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::We really need good templates. The hand formatting is already driving me nuts.--[[User:Dmilewski|Dmilewski]] 08:09, 4 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::::::I completely agree. Dmilewski, do you think you would have time to help a bit? Maybe, if you would not mind, you could work on the breadcrumbs... Also, Sledged, do you think you would have some time to start working on templates (your damn good at them ''':)'''). I think I'll start on trying to work out some forms for adding things (I want to learn them better), and would anyone else like to help? If so I can try to help you find a job, or if you know what you want to do please post it here so everyone knows what everyones going to try to do. Thanks! --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 15:05, 6 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::::Already workin' on them. The monster stat blocks and power stat blocks are going to be the problem ones, but I just have to modify the CSS a bit for the class and racial traits templates. Time is a bit limited for me right now, otherwise I would have had them done within first week 4e was released. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 15:37, 6 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== 4e: ==<br />
<br />
in damage, what is [W]?</div>No problemhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Discussion:Tome_of_Battle_Questions_%26_Answers&diff=236775Discussion:Tome of Battle Questions & Answers2008-03-06T20:35:09Z<p>No problem: /* No problem&nbsp;<small><small>2008-02-11 15:20</small></small> */</p>
<hr />
<div>== Tome of Battle Questions ==<br />
<br />
=== [[User:No problem|No problem]]&nbsp;<small><small>2008-02-11 15:20</small></small> ===<br />
<br />
well, after a suggestion i read about vestiges by Sledged (which was great fun), i read tome of battle as well and i was similarly overjoyed. putting aside my own personal aversion to giving a fighter so many supernatural abilities which mimic spells (i speak of desert wind and shadow hand mostly), i thought the disciplines which gave "regular" extraordinary maneuvers were very much like it "should" be.<br />
<br />
some questions though.<br />
<br />
# what are the skills associated with the disciplines good for? some are useful like concentration and diamond mind and sense motive and setting sun, both of which make extensive use of the skills in many useful maneuvers, but for many of the other disciplines, i did not see any use of the skills associated with them. what did i miss? it cant be that a skill is associated with a discipline has no or very little effect.<br />
# also, something in the skill relating to the discipline seems a little broken. the diamond mind discipline has the 'insightful strike' which substitutes regular damage of an attack with a constitution checks (1d20+ranks+modifier). this seems highly suspect since magic can easily increase the bonus of this check greatly and in fact, such a bonus would be very cheap costwise (bonus squared times 100. for +20 cost would be 4000!). this could easily double the effective bonus for the constitution check and considering it is added to 1d20, well, that makes for a very deadly attack at a very low price. and if you use 'insightful attack, greater', well, the damage is doubled! this means an 11th level swordsage with 14 ranks in concentration and some magic item which gives a, say, +15 to concentration checks (not unreasonable! very reasonable in fact imo), damages (d20+29)x2 using the 'insightful attack, greater' which is a 6th lvl maneuver. this is an average of 80 hit points of damage. granted, the attack must be successful or the maneuver is spent, but this is true for all maneuvers and all who do this kind of damage are of much higher lvl and are not so easily "buffed up" by a cheap magic item.<br />
# i am unsure on whether you can prepare the same maneuver twice.<br />
# can a strike maneuver taking one standard action to initiate be part of a full attack action or can it be followed only by a move action (or preceded by one)?<br />
# is the damage cause by using a maneuver like 'tornado throw' caused by what happens after the throw or before the throw? cause if the subject is capable of flight or if the maneuver is carried out in the astral plane then this maneuver is useless if the damage is caused after the throw.<br />
# what is the 'shadow blink' shadow hand "maneuver"? tome of battle doesnt state. just says "teleportation". is it a maneuver? if so, strike counter or boost? stance?! or other? also, does a stance count as a maneuver for the purposes of determining whether one has, say, three maneuvers of a certain discipline to qualify for a maneuver which has a prerequisite of three maneuvers?<br />
# ok, so there are "other" maneuvers. as for the three shadow hand teleportation maneuvers. are they not supernatural? it does not state it is supernatural and strictly speaking, a maneuver is extraordinary unless stated otherwise. however, teleportation powers are never nonmagical. so which is it?<br />
# can i incorporate a maneuver into a feat or vice versa? like using emerald razor while using the spring attack feat. can i use a counter during a maneuver?<br />
# swift and immediate actions. i get one swift action per round with no cost. what if i want to use another swift action or two? or another immediate action or two? can i "pay" a move action for one or two swift or immediate actions? is there a formal or informal exchange rate? it can be very beneficial to be able to counter more than once. or change stances more than once per round.<br />
# how does 'strike of perfect clarity' interact with critical hits? is the +100 to damage doubled or is it added after you double the regular damage?<br />
# if i am asking too much, do tell. while using 'sudden leap', one incurs AoO unless one succeeds a tumble check. does tumbling while using a sudden leap reduce the distance jumped as tumbling during normal movement does?<br />
# the setting sun throw maneuvers require a (succesful touch attack and a) trip attempt. does this mean these maneuvers cannot be used on larger than large creatures (assuming one is medium sized and according to trip rules)? if so, it is quite restrictive especially for a discipline which boasts dealing well with giants (as in the story of eventide's edge).<br />
#: how does one resolve throwing someone 10 feet or more away and then attacking him? he is out of reach! i suppose you could rule that the subsequent attack is possible only if you throw him where you can reach him with a melee weapon. but would you allow a reach weapon capable of tripping to be used in the throw? what is a throw? is it something you do unarmed (like tripping though there are weapons which can trip)? can you use trip weapons for this attack? reach trip weapons? if unarmed is necessary, is one hand enough? can i hold a weapon (even a reach weapon) in the other hand? <br />
#:: actually, i just read in the discussion thread somewehere that the improved trip feat allows you an attack only if the original action was an attack. since the original action is not an attack but is a throw, or a trip, you get a trip which is irrelevent.<br />
# what about maneuvers and the 'fussion' power? if indeed one can ready a maneuver once only (meaning that maneuvers readied is not like spell slots) then what happens when one uses the 'fussion' power and has the same maneuver readied as the character to be fussioned with?<br />
# how does 'adaptive style' work when u dont have all ur maneuvers ready? say u had 7 and expended 3. can u use adaptive style to trade the 4 u have readied with any other 4? if so, what happens if one of the maneuvers traded is of of the 3 maneuvers i had earlier expended. i cant regain a maneuver i have readied. assuming, of course, that u can indeed ready only one instance at most of each maneuver.<br />
# how does 'raging mongoose' boost stack with 'adamantine hurricane'?<br />
#: 'adamantine hurricane' is one standard action. which means i have a move action. so do i get the boost's extra attacks for free? do i still get to make the 'adamantine hurricane' attacks and the boost's attacks and then get a move action? pretty fearsome if you ask me. get a double bladed sword. use one end two handed for 'adamantine hurricane' and then the two ends for 4 more attacks at your BAB and then make a move action? freakin fearsome!<br />
# 'shifting defense'. it states in first paragraph you get to make a 5' step if your opponent misses you and yet on second paragraph, which is usually the technical exact description, it states that every time an attacker attacks you you get to move 5'. which is it?<br />
# 'stalker in the night'. does it allow to move up to a character, atttack him, move on and stay hidden (keep orginal hide and move silently results) throughout? do i incur AoO? i mean, from creatures that havent spotted me, especially the target of the attack.<br />
# can i use the 'deep impact' feat in conjunction with, say, 'dimaond nightmare blade'? or in general can the 'deep impact' feat be used in conjunction with the various strikes (though if more than one attack is given by the strike, then only one of the attacks)? what about 'cleave'? can it be used while using 'adamantine hurricane'?<br />
# 'iron heart surge'. what the hell are those "spell, effect or other condition currently affecting you and with a duration of one or more rounds"? does it include charm person? cause how can i try to overcome something i am not aware of? or do i have to be aware of the condition and its affects on me? does this include any godsdamned thing i am aware of that affects me?<br />
<br />
<h3 style="height: 0px; border-bottom: 1px solid; overflow: hidden; padding-left: 0; padding-bottom: 0; padding-right: 0; margin: 0;">Sledged-20080213120512</h3><br />
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| style="font-size: larger; border: none; font-weight: bold;" | [[User:Sledged|Sledged]] <span style="font-weight: normal; font-size: smaller">([[User talk:Sledged|talk]])<br/><span style="font-size: smaller;">2008 February 15 12:05 (MDT)</span></span><br />
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# Mostly for flavor, but as you pointed some maneuvers require skill checks.<br />
# As best as I can tell, ''Tome of Battle'' was meant to narrow the gap between spellcasters and melee types. Your typical cleric makes a better melee type than barbarians, fighters, paladins, and rangers. 60 points of damage with a single attack is not so bad. A 11th-level wizard deals an average of 77 points of damage to a single creature with ''[[SRD:Disintegrate|disintegrate]]'', an average of 38.5 points of damage to up to 12 creatures with ''[[SRD:Chain Lightning|chain lighting]]'', and can effectively kill a single creature using ''[[SRD:Flesh to Stone|flesh to stone]]'' (all 6th-level spells).<br />
# I can't find anything that explicitly says so, but I think each maneuver can be prepared only once. Try contacting WotC help, or ask on the Wizards forums.<br />
# Standard actions (like [[SRD:Manyshot|Manyshot]]) may not be taken as part of any full-round action.<br />
# I believe damage is caused by the landing. This is one of those instances where the DM has to use his/her/its best judgement. In the case of flying creatures, I'd rule it that they still take damage, because the attack is so sudden they're not able to compensate fast enough to avoid the impact. With the astral plane, I'd rule that the target would have to be thrown into an object whose mass is greater than or equal to the target itself in order for damage to be done.<br />
# Shadow blink is an "other" maneuver. If you look at the sample shadow sun ninja on page 130, you'll see he has shadow jaunt, which is listed under "other." Stances are not maneuvers which is why they're always collectively referred to as "stances and maneuvers."<br />
# There's no blanket rule that says teleport abilities are always magic/psionic, even though it seems like there should be. So as they're written, those abilities are extraordinary.<br />
# There's no simple "yes" or "no" to that question. It depends on the feat and the maneuver in question. Concerning [[SRD:Spring Attack|Spring Attack]] and emerald razor, the only move action that can be done with spring attack is [[SRD:Move Actions#Move|move]] and the only standard action that can be done is an [[SRD:Standard Actions#Attack|attack action]] with a melee weapon. Emerald razor is a standard action, but even though you make an attack as part of the maneuver, it is not an attack action, so it can't be performed with [[SRD:Spring Attack|Spring Attack]]. Pretty much the only maneuvers that can be done with Spring Attack are the ones that have a swift or an immediate action as their initiation action. Mixing maneuvers all depends on what kind of action each requires. In a single round, you can perform one standard action, one move action, and one swift (or immediate) action, or instead of a standard and move action, you can perform a full-round action. So you could use shadow jaunt (standard), shadow stride (move), and shadow blink (swift) all in the same round. If you have the shadow pounce ability, you'll get three full-round attacks in one round.<br />
# As the rules are written, no, but I'd allow an exchange of a move or standard action to perform a swift action (maybe even an immediate action). Especially since the rules allow one to perform another move action in place of a standard action.<br />
# Page 43, "You do not multiply extra damage from a strike with a successful critical hit. You treat it just as you would extra damage from another special ability, such as sneak attack."<br />
# Not entirely sure on this one. As best as I can tell, it follows the normal rules of movement, so yes, you halve the result of the Jump check (round down to the nearest 5-foot increment). At least that's how I'd handle it.<br />
# I can't find anything that makes setting sun maneuvers an exception to that rule. Within the SRD storm giants and cloud giants are the only giants that are larger than Large, so that claim could still hold true with stone giants, ettins, trolls, ogres, etc... Another interpretation is that these are throws not trips, so they're only subject to the limitations of the trip attempt check. However, the [http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4dnd/20080124a FAQ] implies that they are trips, so you get the benefit of Improved Trip with every throw (another +4 and and an extra attack with a successful throw).<br />
#: That sounds about right.<br />
# Then I'd say that's an exception to the "readied only once" rule. Likewise, I'd say a character with levels in two different martial adept classes can have the same maneuver readied for each class.<br />
# Adaptive Style doesn't affect the number of expended/unexpended maneuvers you have unless you're a crusader. If you have five maneuvers ready and three have been expended, when you use Adaptive Style to change your readied maneuvers, you get to choose which two maneuvers are unexpended. You could use Adaptive Style without changing your readied maneuvers to swap your expended ones with unexpended ones, but unless you're a crusader, that would be a waste of a full-round action.<br />
# I'd say since the extra attacks are not part of the maneuver, you don't get the +4 bonus, but if you're using a reach weapon you don't have to limit the extra attacks to adjacent opponents.<br />
#: Double weapons have been a minor issue with things like that. Consequently, some DM's house-rule that once you use a weapon two-handed (not just double weapons), you can't employ two-weapon fighting (unless you have more than two hands), and vice-versa. In fact there's a number of issues with two-weapon fighting in general, that I'm hoping they'll address in 4E.<br />
# The first paragraph doesn't give any defined game-rule information, so go with the second paragraph.<br />
|- class="even"<br />
| style="border-left: none; border-right: none; border-top: none; font-size: smaller; line-height: 1.5em;" | ''There's no better laugh than the one that you're ashamed to share with your mother.''<div class="right">—Stephen Notley, creator of ''[http://www.angryflower.com/ Bob the Angry Flower]''</div><br />
''A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof was to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.''<div class="right">—Ford Prefect in "Mostly Harmless" by Douglas Adams</div><br />
|}<br />
<br />
=== [[User:Aarnott|Aarnott]]&nbsp;<small><small>10:30, 19 February 2008 (MST)</small></small> ===<br />
<br />
(In regard to 9) - Do you know if a Duskblade's spell channeling is a standard action or a full round action? Because that would be a lot of damage for low levels with a houserule like that Sledged. Blade of Blood, Blade of Blood, Greatsword, Shocking grasp -- 13d6 + 1.5x str damage? I'd also get a spellstoring weapon and store shocking grasp for an extra 5d6 :P. Even at level 1 - Blade of Blood x2 + greatsword = 7d6 damage (though 10 to you will be very poor at this level).<br />
<br />
Note that Quickened spells and powers do not work with this because you can only cast 1 of them a round (until epic feats).<br />
<br />
<h3 style="height: 0px; border-bottom: 1px solid; overflow: hidden; padding-left: 0; padding-bottom: 0; padding-right: 0; margin: 0;">Sledged-20080219115121</h3><br />
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|- class="even"<br />
| style="font-size: larger; border: none; font-weight: bold;" | [[User:Sledged|Sledged]] <span style="font-weight: normal; font-size: smaller">([[User talk:Sledged|talk]])<br/><span style="font-size: smaller;">2008 February 19 11:51 (MDT)</span></span><br />
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Arcane channeling is a standard action, unless you do it as part of a full-attack action, then it's a [[SRD:Action Types#Not an Action|not an action]].<br />
<br />
Casting ''blade of blood'' twice on the same weapon won't be any different than casting it once. See [[SRD:Casting Spells#Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths|Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths]]. The same goes for multiple ''[[SRD:Shocking Grasp|shocking grasp]]'' effects.<br />
<br />
In one of the various books, I think they updated Quicken Spell so that it's now a swift action.<br />
|- class="even"<br />
| style="border-left: none; border-right: none; border-top: none; font-size: smaller; line-height: 1.5em;" | ''There's no better laugh than the one that you're ashamed to share with your mother.''<div class="right">—Stephen Notley, creator of ''[http://www.angryflower.com/ Bob the Angry Flower]''</div><br />
''A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof was to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.''<div class="right">—Ford Prefect in "Mostly Harmless" by Douglas Adams</div><br />
|}<br />
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__NOTOC__</div>No problemhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Discussion:Tome_of_Battle_Questions_%26_Answers&diff=236455Discussion:Tome of Battle Questions & Answers2008-03-06T02:07:01Z<p>No problem: /* No problem&nbsp;<small><small>2008-02-11 15:20</small></small> */</p>
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<div>== Tome of Battle Questions ==<br />
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=== [[User:No problem|No problem]]&nbsp;<small><small>2008-02-11 15:20</small></small> ===<br />
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well, after a suggestion i read about vestiges by Sledged (which was great fun), i read tome of battle as well and i was similarly overjoyed. putting aside my own personal aversion to giving a fighter so many supernatural abilities which mimic spells (i speak of desert wind and shadow hand mostly), i thought the disciplines which gave "regular" extraordinary maneuvers were very much like it "should" be.<br />
<br />
some questions though.<br />
<br />
# what are the skills associated with the disciplines good for? some are useful like concentration and diamond mind and sense motive and setting sun, both of which make extensive use of the skills in many useful maneuvers, but for many of the other disciplines, i did not see any use of the skills associated with them. what did i miss? it cant be that a skill is associated with a discipline has no or very little effect.<br />
# also, something in the skill relating to the discipline seems a little broken. the diamond mind discipline has the 'insightful strike' which substitutes regular damage of an attack with a constitution checks (1d20+ranks+modifier). this seems highly suspect since magic can easily increase the bonus of this check greatly and in fact, such a bonus would be very cheap costwise (bonus squared times 100. for +20 cost would be 4000!). this could easily double the effective bonus for the constitution check and considering it is added to 1d20, well, that makes for a very deadly attack at a very low price. and if you use 'insightful attack, greater', well, the damage is doubled! this means an 11th level swordsage with 14 ranks in concentration and some magic item which gives a, say, +15 to concentration checks (not unreasonable! very reasonable in fact imo), damages (d20+29)x2 using the 'insightful attack, greater' which is a 6th lvl maneuver. this is an average of 80 hit points of damage. granted, the attack must be successful or the maneuver is spent, but this is true for all maneuvers and all who do this kind of damage are of much higher lvl and are not so easily "buffed up" by a cheap magic item.<br />
# i am unsure on whether you can prepare the same maneuver twice.<br />
# can a strike maneuver taking one standard action to initiate be part of a full attack action or can it be followed only by a move action (or preceded by one)?<br />
# is the damage cause by using a maneuver like 'tornado throw' caused by what happens after the throw or before the throw? cause if the subject is capable of flight or if the maneuver is carried out in the astral plane then this maneuver is useless if the damage is caused after the throw.<br />
# what is the 'shadow blink' shadow hand "maneuver"? tome of battle doesnt state. just says "teleportation". is it a maneuver? if so, strike counter or boost? stance?! or other? also, does a stance count as a maneuver for the purposes of determining whether one has, say, three maneuvers of a certain discipline to qualify for a maneuver which has a prerequisite of three maneuvers?<br />
# ok, so there are "other" maneuvers. as for the three shadow hand teleportation maneuvers. are they not supernatural? it does not state it is supernatural and strictly speaking, a maneuver is extraordinary unless stated otherwise. however, teleportation powers are never nonmagical. so which is it?<br />
# can i incorporate a maneuver into a feat or vice versa? like using emerald razor while using the spring attack feat. can i use a counter during a maneuver?<br />
# swift and immediate actions. i get one swift action per round with no cost. what if i want to use another swift action or two? or another immediate action or two? can i "pay" a move action for one or two swift or immediate actions? is there a formal or informal exchange rate? it can be very beneficial to be able to counter more than once. or change stances more than once per round.<br />
# how does 'strike of perfect clarity' interact with critical hits? is the +100 to damage doubled or is it added after you double the regular damage?<br />
# if i am asking too much, do tell. while using 'sudden leap', one incurs AoO unless one succeeds a tumble check. does tumbling while using a sudden leap reduce the distance jumped as tumbling during normal movement does?<br />
# the setting sun throw maneuvers require a (succesful touch attack and a) trip attempt. does this mean these maneuvers cannot be used on larger than large creatures (assuming one is medium sized and according to trip rules)? if so, it is quite restrictive especially for a discipline which boasts dealing well with giants (as in the story of eventide's edge).<br />
#: how does one resolve throwing someone 10 feet or more away and then attacking him? he is out of reach! i suppose you could rule that the subsequent attack is possible only if you throw him where you can reach him with a melee weapon. but would you allow a reach weapon capable of tripping to be used in the throw? what is a throw? is it something you do unarmed (like tripping though there are weapons which can trip)? can you use trip weapons for this attack? reach trip weapons? if unarmed is necessary, is one hand enough? can i hold a weapon (even a reach weapon) in the other hand? <br />
#:: actually, i just read in the discussion thread somewehere that the improved trip feat allows you an attack only if the original action was an attack. since the original action is not an attack but is a throw, or a trip, you get a trip which is irrelevent.<br />
# what about maneuvers and the 'fussion' power? if indeed one can ready a maneuver once only (meaning that maneuvers readied is not like spell slots) then what happens when one uses the 'fussion' power and has the same maneuver readied as the character to be fussioned with?<br />
# how does 'adaptive style' work when u dont have all ur maneuvers ready? say u had 7 and expended 3. can u use adaptive style to trade the 4 u have readied with any other 4? if so, what happens if one of the maneuvers traded is of of the 3 maneuvers i had earlier expended. i cant regain a maneuver i have readied. assuming, of course, that u can indeed ready only one instance at most of each maneuver.<br />
# how does 'raging mongoose' boost stack with 'adamantine hurricane'?<br />
#: 'adamantine hurricane' is one standard action. which means i have a move action. so do i get the boost's extra attacks for free? do i still get to make the 'adamantine hurricane' attacks and the boost's attacks and then get a move action? pretty fearsome if you ask me. get a double bladed sword. use one end two handed for 'adamantine hurricane' and then the two ends for 4 more attacks at your BAB and then make a move action? freakin fearsome!<br />
# 'shifting defense'. it states in first paragraph you get to make a 5' step if your opponent misses you and yet on second paragraph, which is usually the technical exact description, it states that every time an attacker attacks you you get to move 5'. which is it?<br />
# 'stalker in the night'. does it allow to move up to a character, atttack him, move on and stay hidden (keep orginal hide and move silently results) throughout? do i incur AoO? i mean, from creatures that havent spotted me, especially the target of the attack.<br />
# can i use the 'deep impact' feat in conjunction with, say, 'dimaond nightmare blade'? or in general can the 'deep impact' feat be used in conjunction with the various strikes (though if more than one attack is given by the strike, then only one of the attacks)? what about 'cleave'? can it be used while using 'adamantine hurricane'?<br />
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| style="font-size: larger; border: none; font-weight: bold;" | [[User:Sledged|Sledged]] <span style="font-weight: normal; font-size: smaller">([[User talk:Sledged|talk]])<br/><span style="font-size: smaller;">2008 February 15 12:05 (MDT)</span></span><br />
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# Mostly for flavor, but as you pointed some maneuvers require skill checks.<br />
# As best as I can tell, ''Tome of Battle'' was meant to narrow the gap between spellcasters and melee types. Your typical cleric makes a better melee type than barbarians, fighters, paladins, and rangers. 60 points of damage with a single attack is not so bad. A 11th-level wizard deals an average of 77 points of damage to a single creature with ''[[SRD:Disintegrate|disintegrate]]'', an average of 38.5 points of damage to up to 12 creatures with ''[[SRD:Chain Lightning|chain lighting]]'', and can effectively kill a single creature using ''[[SRD:Flesh to Stone|flesh to stone]]'' (all 6th-level spells).<br />
# I can't find anything that explicitly says so, but I think each maneuver can be prepared only once. Try contacting WotC help, or ask on the Wizards forums.<br />
# Standard actions (like [[SRD:Manyshot|Manyshot]]) may not be taken as part of any full-round action.<br />
# I believe damage is caused by the landing. This is one of those instances where the DM has to use his/her/its best judgement. In the case of flying creatures, I'd rule it that they still take damage, because the attack is so sudden they're not able to compensate fast enough to avoid the impact. With the astral plane, I'd rule that the target would have to be thrown into an object whose mass is greater than or equal to the target itself in order for damage to be done.<br />
# Shadow blink is an "other" maneuver. If you look at the sample shadow sun ninja on page 130, you'll see he has shadow jaunt, which is listed under "other." Stances are not maneuvers which is why they're always collectively referred to as "stances and maneuvers."<br />
# There's no blanket rule that says teleport abilities are always magic/psionic, even though it seems like there should be. So as they're written, those abilities are extraordinary.<br />
# There's no simple "yes" or "no" to that question. It depends on the feat and the maneuver in question. Concerning [[SRD:Spring Attack|Spring Attack]] and emerald razor, the only move action that can be done with spring attack is [[SRD:Move Actions#Move|move]] and the only standard action that can be done is an [[SRD:Standard Actions#Attack|attack action]] with a melee weapon. Emerald razor is a standard action, but even though you make an attack as part of the maneuver, it is not an attack action, so it can't be performed with [[SRD:Spring Attack|Spring Attack]]. Pretty much the only maneuvers that can be done with Spring Attack are the ones that have a swift or an immediate action as their initiation action. Mixing maneuvers all depends on what kind of action each requires. In a single round, you can perform one standard action, one move action, and one swift (or immediate) action, or instead of a standard and move action, you can perform a full-round action. So you could use shadow jaunt (standard), shadow stride (move), and shadow blink (swift) all in the same round. If you have the shadow pounce ability, you'll get three full-round attacks in one round.<br />
# As the rules are written, no, but I'd allow an exchange of a move or standard action to perform a swift action (maybe even an immediate action). Especially since the rules allow one to perform another move action in place of a standard action.<br />
# Page 43, "You do not multiply extra damage from a strike with a successful critical hit. You treat it just as you would extra damage from another special ability, such as sneak attack."<br />
# Not entirely sure on this one. As best as I can tell, it follows the normal rules of movement, so yes, you halve the result of the Jump check (round down to the nearest 5-foot increment). At least that's how I'd handle it.<br />
# I can't find anything that makes setting sun maneuvers an exception to that rule. Within the SRD storm giants and cloud giants are the only giants that are larger than Large, so that claim could still hold true with stone giants, ettins, trolls, ogres, etc... Another interpretation is that these are throws not trips, so they're only subject to the limitations of the trip attempt check. However, the [http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4dnd/20080124a FAQ] implies that they are trips, so you get the benefit of Improved Trip with every throw (another +4 and and an extra attack with a successful throw).<br />
#: That sounds about right.<br />
# Then I'd say that's an exception to the "readied only once" rule. Likewise, I'd say a character with levels in two different martial adept classes can have the same maneuver readied for each class.<br />
# Adaptive Style doesn't affect the number of expended/unexpended maneuvers you have unless you're a crusader. If you have five maneuvers ready and three have been expended, when you use Adaptive Style to change your readied maneuvers, you get to choose which two maneuvers are unexpended. You could use Adaptive Style without changing your readied maneuvers to swap your expended ones with unexpended ones, but unless you're a crusader, that would be a waste of a full-round action.<br />
# I'd say since the extra attacks are not part of the maneuver, you don't get the +4 bonus, but if you're using a reach weapon you don't have to limit the extra attacks to adjacent opponents.<br />
#: Double weapons have been a minor issue with things like that. Consequently, some DM's house-rule that once you use a weapon two-handed (not just double weapons), you can't employ two-weapon fighting (unless you have more than two hands), and vice-versa. In fact there's a number of issues with two-weapon fighting in general, that I'm hoping they'll address in 4E.<br />
# The first paragraph doesn't give any defined game-rule information, so go with the second paragraph.<br />
|- class="even"<br />
| style="border-left: none; border-right: none; border-top: none; font-size: smaller; line-height: 1.5em;" | ''There's no better laugh than the one that you're ashamed to share with your mother.''<div class="right">—Stephen Notley, creator of ''[http://www.angryflower.com/ Bob the Angry Flower]''</div><br />
''A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof was to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.''<div class="right">—Ford Prefect in "Mostly Harmless" by Douglas Adams</div><br />
|}<br />
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=== [[User:Aarnott|Aarnott]]&nbsp;<small><small>10:30, 19 February 2008 (MST)</small></small> ===<br />
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(In regard to 9) - Do you know if a Duskblade's spell channeling is a standard action or a full round action? Because that would be a lot of damage for low levels with a houserule like that Sledged. Blade of Blood, Blade of Blood, Greatsword, Shocking grasp -- 13d6 + 1.5x str damage? I'd also get a spellstoring weapon and store shocking grasp for an extra 5d6 :P. Even at level 1 - Blade of Blood x2 + greatsword = 7d6 damage (though 10 to you will be very poor at this level).<br />
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Note that Quickened spells and powers do not work with this because you can only cast 1 of them a round (until epic feats).<br />
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| style="font-size: larger; border: none; font-weight: bold;" | [[User:Sledged|Sledged]] <span style="font-weight: normal; font-size: smaller">([[User talk:Sledged|talk]])<br/><span style="font-size: smaller;">2008 February 19 11:51 (MDT)</span></span><br />
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Arcane channeling is a standard action, unless you do it as part of a full-attack action, then it's a [[SRD:Action Types#Not an Action|not an action]].<br />
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Casting ''blade of blood'' twice on the same weapon won't be any different than casting it once. See [[SRD:Casting Spells#Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths|Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths]]. The same goes for multiple ''[[SRD:Shocking Grasp|shocking grasp]]'' effects.<br />
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In one of the various books, I think they updated Quicken Spell so that it's now a swift action.<br />
|- class="even"<br />
| style="border-left: none; border-right: none; border-top: none; font-size: smaller; line-height: 1.5em;" | ''There's no better laugh than the one that you're ashamed to share with your mother.''<div class="right">—Stephen Notley, creator of ''[http://www.angryflower.com/ Bob the Angry Flower]''</div><br />
''A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof was to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.''<div class="right">—Ford Prefect in "Mostly Harmless" by Douglas Adams</div><br />
|}<br />
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{{Forumfooter|Discussion}}<br />
__NOTOC__</div>No problemhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Discussion:Tome_of_Battle_Questions_%26_Answers&diff=236454Discussion:Tome of Battle Questions & Answers2008-03-06T02:05:17Z<p>No problem: /* No problem&nbsp;<small><small>2008-02-11 15:20</small></small> */</p>
<hr />
<div>== Tome of Battle Questions ==<br />
<br />
=== [[User:No problem|No problem]]&nbsp;<small><small>2008-02-11 15:20</small></small> ===<br />
<br />
well, after a suggestion i read about vestiges by Sledged (which was great fun), i read tome of battle as well and i was similarly overjoyed. putting aside my own personal aversion to giving a fighter so many supernatural abilities which mimic spells (i speak of desert wind and shadow hand mostly), i thought the disciplines which gave "regular" extraordinary maneuvers were very much like it "should" be.<br />
<br />
some questions though.<br />
<br />
# what are the skills associated with the disciplines good for? some are useful like concentration and diamond mind and sense motive and setting sun, both of which make extensive use of the skills in many useful maneuvers, but for many of the other disciplines, i did not see any use of the skills associated with them. what did i miss? it cant be that a skill is associated with a discipline has no or very little effect.<br />
# also, something in the skill relating to the discipline seems a little broken. the diamond mind discipline has the 'insightful strike' which substitutes regular damage of an attack with a constitution checks (1d20+ranks+modifier). this seems highly suspect since magic can easily increase the bonus of this check greatly and in fact, such a bonus would be very cheap costwise (bonus squared times 100. for +20 cost would be 4000!). this could easily double the effective bonus for the constitution check and considering it is added to 1d20, well, that makes for a very deadly attack at a very low price. and if you use 'insightful attack, greater', well, the damage is doubled! this means an 11th level swordsage with 14 ranks in concentration and some magic item which gives a, say, +15 to concentration checks (not unreasonable! very reasonable in fact imo), damages (d20+29)x2 using the 'insightful attack, greater' which is a 6th lvl maneuver. this is an average of 80 hit points of damage. granted, the attack must be successful or the maneuver is spent, but this is true for all maneuvers and all who do this kind of damage are of much higher lvl and are not so easily "buffed up" by a cheap magic item.<br />
# i am unsure on whether you can prepare the same maneuver twice.<br />
# can a strike maneuver taking one standard action to initiate be part of a full attack action or can it be followed only by a move action (or preceded by one)?<br />
# is the damage cause by using a maneuver like 'tornado throw' caused by what happens after the throw or before the throw? cause if the subject is capable of flight or if the maneuver is carried out in the astral plane then this maneuver is useless if the damage is caused after the throw.<br />
# what is the 'shadow blink' shadow hand "maneuver"? tome of battle doesnt state. just says "teleportation". is it a maneuver? if so, strike counter or boost? stance?! or other? also, does a stance count as a maneuver for the purposes of determining whether one has, say, three maneuvers of a certain discipline to qualify for a maneuver which has a prerequisite of three maneuvers?<br />
# ok, so there are "other" maneuvers. as for the three shadow hand teleportation maneuvers. are they not supernatural? it does not state it is supernatural and strictly speaking, a maneuver is extraordinary unless stated otherwise. however, teleportation powers are never nonmagical. so which is it?<br />
# can i incorporate a maneuver into a feat or vice versa? like using emerald razor while using the spring attack feat. can i use a counter during a maneuver?<br />
# swift and immediate actions. i get one swift action per round with no cost. what if i want to use another swift action or two? or another immediate action or two? can i "pay" a move action for one or two swift or immediate actions? is there a formal or informal exchange rate? it can be very beneficial to be able to counter more than once. or change stances more than once per round.<br />
# how does 'strike of perfect clarity' interact with critical hits? is the +100 to damage doubled or is it added after you double the regular damage?<br />
# if i am asking too much, do tell. while using 'sudden leap', one incurs AoO unless one succeeds a tumble check. does tumbling while using a sudden leap reduce the distance jumped as tumbling during normal movement does?<br />
# the setting sun throw maneuvers require a (succesful touch attack and a) trip attempt. does this mean these maneuvers cannot be used on larger than large creatures (assuming one is medium sized and according to trip rules)? if so, it is quite restrictive especially for a discipline which boasts dealing well with giants (as in the story of eventide's edge).<br />
#: how does one resolve throwing someone 10 feet or more away and then attacking him? he is out of reach! i suppose you could rule that the subsequent attack is possible only if you throw him where you can reach him with a melee weapon. but would you allow a reach weapon capable of tripping to be used in the throw? what is a throw? is it something you do unarmed (like tripping though there are weapons which can trip)? can you use trip weapons for this attack? reach trip weapons? if unarmed is necessary, is one hand enough? can i hold a weapon (even a reach weapon) in the other hand? <br />
#:: actually, i just read in the discussion thread somewehere that the improved trip feat allows you an attack only if the original action was an attack. since the original action is not an attack but is a throw, or a trip, you get a trip which is irrelevent.<br />
# what about maneuvers and the 'fussion' power? if indeed one can ready a maneuver once only (meaning that maneuvers readied is not like spell slots) then what happens when one uses the 'fussion' power and has the same maneuver readied as the character to be fussioned with?<br />
# how does 'adaptive style' work when u dont have all ur maneuvers ready? say u had 7 and expended 3. can u use adaptive style to trade the 4 u have readied with any other 4? if so, what happens if one of the maneuvers traded is of of the 3 maneuvers i had earlier expended. i cant regain a maneuver i have readied. assuming, of course, that u can indeed ready only one instance at most of each maneuver.<br />
# how does 'raging mongoose' boost stack with 'adamantine hurricane'?<br />
#: 'adamantine hurricane' is one standard action. which means i have a move action. so do i get the boost's extra attacks for free? do i still get to make the 'adamantine hurricane' attacks and the boost's attacks and then get a move action? pretty fearsome if you ask me. get a double bladed sword. use one end two handed for 'adamantine hurricane' and then the two ends for 4 more attacks at your BAB and then make a move action? freakin fearsome!<br />
# 'shifting defense'. it states in first paragraph you get to make a 5' step if your opponent misses you and yet on second paragraph, which is usually the technical exact description, it states that every time an attacker attacks you you get to move 5'. which is it?<br />
# 'stalker in the night'. does it allow to move up to a character, atttack him, move on and stay hidden (keep orginal hide and move silently results) throughout? do i incur AoO? i mean, from creatures that havent spotted me, especially the target of the attack.<br />
# can i use the 'psionic weapon' feat in conjunction with, say, 'dimaond nightmare blade'? or in general can the 'psionic weapon' feat be used in conjunction with the various strikes (though if more than one attack is given by the strike, then only one of the attacks)? what about 'cleave'? can it be used while using 'adamantine hurricane'?<br />
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| style="font-size: larger; border: none; font-weight: bold;" | [[User:Sledged|Sledged]] <span style="font-weight: normal; font-size: smaller">([[User talk:Sledged|talk]])<br/><span style="font-size: smaller;">2008 February 15 12:05 (MDT)</span></span><br />
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# Mostly for flavor, but as you pointed some maneuvers require skill checks.<br />
# As best as I can tell, ''Tome of Battle'' was meant to narrow the gap between spellcasters and melee types. Your typical cleric makes a better melee type than barbarians, fighters, paladins, and rangers. 60 points of damage with a single attack is not so bad. A 11th-level wizard deals an average of 77 points of damage to a single creature with ''[[SRD:Disintegrate|disintegrate]]'', an average of 38.5 points of damage to up to 12 creatures with ''[[SRD:Chain Lightning|chain lighting]]'', and can effectively kill a single creature using ''[[SRD:Flesh to Stone|flesh to stone]]'' (all 6th-level spells).<br />
# I can't find anything that explicitly says so, but I think each maneuver can be prepared only once. Try contacting WotC help, or ask on the Wizards forums.<br />
# Standard actions (like [[SRD:Manyshot|Manyshot]]) may not be taken as part of any full-round action.<br />
# I believe damage is caused by the landing. This is one of those instances where the DM has to use his/her/its best judgement. In the case of flying creatures, I'd rule it that they still take damage, because the attack is so sudden they're not able to compensate fast enough to avoid the impact. With the astral plane, I'd rule that the target would have to be thrown into an object whose mass is greater than or equal to the target itself in order for damage to be done.<br />
# Shadow blink is an "other" maneuver. If you look at the sample shadow sun ninja on page 130, you'll see he has shadow jaunt, which is listed under "other." Stances are not maneuvers which is why they're always collectively referred to as "stances and maneuvers."<br />
# There's no blanket rule that says teleport abilities are always magic/psionic, even though it seems like there should be. So as they're written, those abilities are extraordinary.<br />
# There's no simple "yes" or "no" to that question. It depends on the feat and the maneuver in question. Concerning [[SRD:Spring Attack|Spring Attack]] and emerald razor, the only move action that can be done with spring attack is [[SRD:Move Actions#Move|move]] and the only standard action that can be done is an [[SRD:Standard Actions#Attack|attack action]] with a melee weapon. Emerald razor is a standard action, but even though you make an attack as part of the maneuver, it is not an attack action, so it can't be performed with [[SRD:Spring Attack|Spring Attack]]. Pretty much the only maneuvers that can be done with Spring Attack are the ones that have a swift or an immediate action as their initiation action. Mixing maneuvers all depends on what kind of action each requires. In a single round, you can perform one standard action, one move action, and one swift (or immediate) action, or instead of a standard and move action, you can perform a full-round action. So you could use shadow jaunt (standard), shadow stride (move), and shadow blink (swift) all in the same round. If you have the shadow pounce ability, you'll get three full-round attacks in one round.<br />
# As the rules are written, no, but I'd allow an exchange of a move or standard action to perform a swift action (maybe even an immediate action). Especially since the rules allow one to perform another move action in place of a standard action.<br />
# Page 43, "You do not multiply extra damage from a strike with a successful critical hit. You treat it just as you would extra damage from another special ability, such as sneak attack."<br />
# Not entirely sure on this one. As best as I can tell, it follows the normal rules of movement, so yes, you halve the result of the Jump check (round down to the nearest 5-foot increment). At least that's how I'd handle it.<br />
# I can't find anything that makes setting sun maneuvers an exception to that rule. Within the SRD storm giants and cloud giants are the only giants that are larger than Large, so that claim could still hold true with stone giants, ettins, trolls, ogres, etc... Another interpretation is that these are throws not trips, so they're only subject to the limitations of the trip attempt check. However, the [http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4dnd/20080124a FAQ] implies that they are trips, so you get the benefit of Improved Trip with every throw (another +4 and and an extra attack with a successful throw).<br />
#: That sounds about right.<br />
# Then I'd say that's an exception to the "readied only once" rule. Likewise, I'd say a character with levels in two different martial adept classes can have the same maneuver readied for each class.<br />
# Adaptive Style doesn't affect the number of expended/unexpended maneuvers you have unless you're a crusader. If you have five maneuvers ready and three have been expended, when you use Adaptive Style to change your readied maneuvers, you get to choose which two maneuvers are unexpended. You could use Adaptive Style without changing your readied maneuvers to swap your expended ones with unexpended ones, but unless you're a crusader, that would be a waste of a full-round action.<br />
# I'd say since the extra attacks are not part of the maneuver, you don't get the +4 bonus, but if you're using a reach weapon you don't have to limit the extra attacks to adjacent opponents.<br />
#: Double weapons have been a minor issue with things like that. Consequently, some DM's house-rule that once you use a weapon two-handed (not just double weapons), you can't employ two-weapon fighting (unless you have more than two hands), and vice-versa. In fact there's a number of issues with two-weapon fighting in general, that I'm hoping they'll address in 4E.<br />
# The first paragraph doesn't give any defined game-rule information, so go with the second paragraph.<br />
|- class="even"<br />
| style="border-left: none; border-right: none; border-top: none; font-size: smaller; line-height: 1.5em;" | ''There's no better laugh than the one that you're ashamed to share with your mother.''<div class="right">—Stephen Notley, creator of ''[http://www.angryflower.com/ Bob the Angry Flower]''</div><br />
''A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof was to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.''<div class="right">—Ford Prefect in "Mostly Harmless" by Douglas Adams</div><br />
|}<br />
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=== [[User:Aarnott|Aarnott]]&nbsp;<small><small>10:30, 19 February 2008 (MST)</small></small> ===<br />
<br />
(In regard to 9) - Do you know if a Duskblade's spell channeling is a standard action or a full round action? Because that would be a lot of damage for low levels with a houserule like that Sledged. Blade of Blood, Blade of Blood, Greatsword, Shocking grasp -- 13d6 + 1.5x str damage? I'd also get a spellstoring weapon and store shocking grasp for an extra 5d6 :P. Even at level 1 - Blade of Blood x2 + greatsword = 7d6 damage (though 10 to you will be very poor at this level).<br />
<br />
Note that Quickened spells and powers do not work with this because you can only cast 1 of them a round (until epic feats).<br />
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| style="font-size: larger; border: none; font-weight: bold;" | [[User:Sledged|Sledged]] <span style="font-weight: normal; font-size: smaller">([[User talk:Sledged|talk]])<br/><span style="font-size: smaller;">2008 February 19 11:51 (MDT)</span></span><br />
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Arcane channeling is a standard action, unless you do it as part of a full-attack action, then it's a [[SRD:Action Types#Not an Action|not an action]].<br />
<br />
Casting ''blade of blood'' twice on the same weapon won't be any different than casting it once. See [[SRD:Casting Spells#Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths|Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths]]. The same goes for multiple ''[[SRD:Shocking Grasp|shocking grasp]]'' effects.<br />
<br />
In one of the various books, I think they updated Quicken Spell so that it's now a swift action.<br />
|- class="even"<br />
| style="border-left: none; border-right: none; border-top: none; font-size: smaller; line-height: 1.5em;" | ''There's no better laugh than the one that you're ashamed to share with your mother.''<div class="right">—Stephen Notley, creator of ''[http://www.angryflower.com/ Bob the Angry Flower]''</div><br />
''A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof was to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.''<div class="right">—Ford Prefect in "Mostly Harmless" by Douglas Adams</div><br />
|}<br />
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__NOTOC__</div>No problemhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=SRD_Talk:True_Dragon&diff=236251SRD Talk:True Dragon2008-03-05T16:13:39Z<p>No problem: /* buggy link */</p>
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<div>== A thought... ==<br />
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Aren't dragons supposed to grow to juvenile size in mere months but to adult onwards in many years? Why does this say they take many years to grow? Or is that age thing another myth like the elven frailness one? --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 14:40, 19 January 2008 (MST)<br />
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:It's been that way since at least 1st edition AD&D. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 16:42, 19 January 2008 (MST)<br />
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== buggy link ==<br />
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in 'advanced dragon' the armor class part is a fudged link</div>No problemhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=SRD_Talk:True_Dragon&diff=236250SRD Talk:True Dragon2008-03-05T16:13:21Z<p>No problem: New section: buggy link</p>
<hr />
<div>== A thought... ==<br />
<br />
Aren't dragons supposed to grow to juvenile size in mere months but to adult onwards in many years? Why does this say they take many years to grow? Or is that age thing another myth like the elven frailness one? --[[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]] 14:40, 19 January 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
:It's been that way since at least 1st edition AD&D. —[[User:Sledged|Sledged]] ([[User talk:Sledged|talk]]) 16:42, 19 January 2008 (MST)<br />
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== buggy link ==<br />
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in 'advanced dragon' the aromor class part is a fudged link</div>No problemhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Discussion:Can_large_weapons_be_wielded_in_one_hand%3F&diff=235735Discussion:Can large weapons be wielded in one hand?2008-03-04T11:33:13Z<p>No problem: /* Can large weapons be wielded in one hand? */</p>
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<div>== Can large weapons be wielded in one hand? == <br />
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=== [[User:No problem|No problem]]&nbsp;<small><small>17:47, 3 March 2008 (MST)</small></small> ===<br />
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can one wield a two handed weapon in one hand? if so, what are the penalties and are they less if one has high strength or dexterity?<br />
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=== [[User:Eiji|Eiji]]&nbsp;<small><small>01:16, 4 March 2008 (MST)</small></small> ===<br />
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Hold a two handed weapon in one hand? Sure. Attack with one? Not really, it's improved then, -4 and all, since you're not supposed to use say, a Greatsword one-handed and expect to still be useful swinging it.<br />
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=== [[User:No problem|No problem]]&nbsp;<small><small>04:33, 4 March 2008 (MST)</small></small> ===<br />
i would still expect a really strong character to be able to wield it as effectively as he would a longsword.<br />
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__NOTOC__</div>No problemhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Discussion:Can_large_weapons_be_wielded_in_one_hand%3F&diff=235606Discussion:Can large weapons be wielded in one hand?2008-03-04T00:47:13Z<p>No problem: New page: == <!-- Insert your questions title here --> == === ~~~&nbsp;<small><small>~~~~~</small></small> === can one wield a two handed weapon in one hand? if so, what are the penalties and are t...</p>
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<div>== <!-- Insert your questions title here --> == <br />
=== [[User:No problem|No problem]]&nbsp;<small><small>17:47, 3 March 2008 (MST)</small></small> ===<br />
can one wield a two handed weapon in one hand? if so, what are the penalties and are they less if one has high strength or dexterity?<br />
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__NOTOC__</div>No problemhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=SRD_Talk:Stone_Giant&diff=235058SRD Talk:Stone Giant2008-03-03T13:10:48Z<p>No problem: buggy link</p>
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<div>== buggy link ==<br />
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the 'stone elder giant' link is fudged.</div>No problemhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Discussion:Tome_of_Battle_Questions_%26_Answers&diff=232293Discussion:Tome of Battle Questions & Answers2008-02-25T02:38:54Z<p>No problem: /* No problem&nbsp;<small><small>2008-02-11 15:20</small></small> */</p>
<hr />
<div>== Tome of Battle Questions ==<br />
<br />
=== [[User:No problem|No problem]]&nbsp;<small><small>2008-02-11 15:20</small></small> ===<br />
<br />
well, after a suggestion i read about vestiges by Sledged (which was great fun), i read tome of battle as well and i was similarly overjoyed. putting aside my own personal aversion to giving a fighter so many supernatural abilities which mimic spells (i speak of desert wind and shadow hand mostly), i thought the disciplines which gave "regular" extraordinary maneuvers were very much like it "should" be.<br />
<br />
some questions though.<br />
<br />
# what are the skills associated with the disciplines good for? some are useful like concentration and diamond mind and sense motive and setting sun, both of which make extensive use of the skills in many useful maneuvers, but for many of the other disciplines, i did not see any use of the skills associated with them. what did i miss? it cant be that a skill is associated with a discipline has no or very little effect.<br />
# also, something in the skill relating to the discipline seems a little broken. the diamond mind discipline has the 'insightful strike' which substitutes regular damage of an attack with a constitution checks (1d20+ranks+modifier). this seems highly suspect since magic can easily increase the bonus of this check greatly and in fact, such a bonus would be very cheap costwise (bonus squared times 100. for +20 cost would be 4000!). this could easily double the effective bonus for the constitution check and considering it is added to 1d20, well, that makes for a very deadly attack at a very low price. and if you use 'insightful attack, greater', well, the damage is doubled! this means an 11th level swordsage with 14 ranks in concentration and some magic item which gives a, say, +15 to concentration checks (not unreasonable! very reasonable in fact imo), damages (d20+29)x2 using the 'insightful attack, greater' which is a 6th lvl maneuver. this is an average of 80 hit points of damage. granted, the attack must be successful or the maneuver is spent, but this is true for all maneuvers and all who do this kind of damage are of much higher lvl and are not so easily "buffed up" by a cheap magic item.<br />
# i am unsure on whether you can prepare the same maneuver twice.<br />
# can a strike maneuver taking one standard action to initiate be part of a full attack action or can it be followed only by a move action (or preceded by one)?<br />
# is the damage cause by using a maneuver like 'tornado throw' caused by what happens after the throw or before the throw? cause if the subject is capable of flight or if the maneuver is carried out in the astral plane then this maneuver is useless if the damage is caused after the throw.<br />
# what is the 'shadow blink' shadow hand "maneuver"? tome of battle doesnt state. just says "teleportation". is it a maneuver? if so, strike counter or boost? stance?! or other? also, does a stance count as a maneuver for the purposes of determining whether one has, say, three maneuvers of a certain discipline to qualify for a maneuver which has a prerequisite of three maneuvers?<br />
# ok, so there are "other" maneuvers. as for the three shadow hand teleportation maneuvers. are they not supernatural? it does not state it is supernatural and strictly speaking, a maneuver is extraordinary unless stated otherwise. however, teleportation powers are never nonmagical. so which is it?<br />
# can i incorporate a maneuver into a feat or vice versa? like using emerald razor while using the spring attack feat. can i use a counter during a maneuver?<br />
# swift and immediate actions. i get one swift action per round with no cost. what if i want to use another swift action or two? or another immediate action or two? can i "pay" a move action for one or two swift or immediate actions? is there a formal or informal exchange rate? it can be very beneficial to be able to counter more than once. or change stances more than once per round.<br />
# how does 'strike of perfect clarity' interact with critical hits? is the +100 to damage doubled or is it added after you double the regular damage?<br />
# if i am asking too much, do tell. while using 'sudden leap', one incurs AoO unless one succeeds a tumble check. does tumbling while using a sudden leap reduce the distance jumped as tumbling during normal movement does?<br />
# the setting sun throw maneuvers require a (succesful touch attack and a) trip attempt. does this mean these maneuvers cannot be used on larger than large creatures (assuming one is medium sized and according to trip rules)? if so, it is quite restrictive especially for a discipline which boasts dealing well with giants (as in the story of eventide's edge).<br />
#: how does one resolve throwing someone 10 feet or more away and then attacking him? he is out of reach! i suppose you could rule that the subsequent attack is possible only if you throw him where you can reach him with a melee weapon. but would you allow a reach weapon capable of tripping to be used in the throw? what is a throw? is it something you do unarmed (like tripping though there are weapons which can trip)? can you use trip weapons for this attack? reach trip weapons? if unarmed is necessary, is one hand enough? can i hold a weapon (even a reach weapon) in the other hand? <br />
#:: actually, i just read in the discussion thread somewehere that the improved trip feat allows you an attack only if the original action was an attack. since the original action is not an attack but is a throw, or a trip, you get a trip which is irrelevent.<br />
# what about maneuvers and the 'fussion' power? if indeed one can ready a maneuver once only (meaning that maneuvers readied is not like spell slots) then what happens when one uses the 'fussion' power and has the same maneuver readied as the character to be fussioned with?<br />
# how does 'adaptive style' work when u dont have all ur maneuvers ready? say u had 7 and expended 3. can u use adaptive style to trade the 4 u have readied with any other 4? if so, what happens if one of the maneuvers traded is of of the 3 maneuvers i had earlier expended. i cant regain a maneuver i have readied. assuming, of course, that u can indeed ready only one instance at most of each maneuver.<br />
# how does 'raging mongoose' boost stack with 'adamantine hurricane'?<br />
#: 'adamantine hurricane' is one standard action. which means i have a move action. so do i get the boost's extra attacks for free? do i still get to make the 'adamantine hurricane' attacks and the boost's attacks and then get a move action? pretty fearsome if you ask me. get a double bladed sword. use one end two handed for 'adamantine hurricane' and then the two ends for 4 more attacks at your BAB and then make a move action? freakin fearsome!<br />
# 'shifting defense'. it states in first paragraph you get to make a 5' step if your opponent misses you and yet on second paragraph, which is usually the technical exact description, it states that every time an attacker attacks you you get to move 5'. which is it?<br />
# 'stalker in the night'. does it allow to move up to a character, atttack him, move on and stay hidden (keep orginal hide and move silently results) throughout? do i incur AoO? i mean, from creatures that havent spotted me, especially the target of the attack.<br />
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<h3 style="height: 0px; border-bottom: 1px solid; overflow: hidden; padding-left: 0; padding-bottom: 0; padding-right: 0; margin: 0;">Sledged-20080213120512</h3><br />
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| style="font-size: larger; border: none; font-weight: bold;" | [[User:Sledged|Sledged]] <span style="font-weight: normal; font-size: smaller">([[User talk:Sledged|talk]])<br/><span style="font-size: smaller;">2008 February 15 12:05 (MDT)</span></span><br />
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# Mostly for flavor, but as you pointed some maneuvers require skill checks.<br />
# As best as I can tell, ''Tome of Battle'' was meant to narrow the gap between spellcasters and melee types. Your typical cleric makes a better melee type than barbarians, fighters, paladins, and rangers. 60 points of damage with a single attack is not so bad. A 11th-level wizard deals an average of 77 points of damage to a single creature with ''[[SRD:Disintegrate|disintegrate]]'', an average of 38.5 points of damage to up to 12 creatures with ''[[SRD:Chain Lightning|chain lighting]]'', and can effectively kill a single creature using ''[[SRD:Flesh to Stone|flesh to stone]]'' (all 6th-level spells).<br />
# I can't find anything that explicitly says so, but I think each maneuver can be prepared only once. Try contacting WotC help, or ask on the Wizards forums.<br />
# Standard actions (like [[SRD:Manyshot|Manyshot]]) may not be taken as part of any full-round action.<br />
# I believe damage is caused by the landing. This is one of those instances where the DM has to use his/her/its best judgement. In the case of flying creatures, I'd rule it that they still take damage, because the attack is so sudden they're not able to compensate fast enough to avoid the impact. With the astral plane, I'd rule that the target would have to be thrown into an object whose mass is greater than or equal to the target itself in order for damage to be done.<br />
# Shadow blink is an "other" maneuver. If you look at the sample shadow sun ninja on page 130, you'll see he has shadow jaunt, which is listed under "other." Stances are not maneuvers which is why they're always collectively referred to as "stances and maneuvers."<br />
# There's no blanket rule that says teleport abilities are always magic/psionic, even though it seems like there should be. So as they're written, those abilities are extraordinary.<br />
# There's no simple "yes" or "no" to that question. It depends on the feat and the maneuver in question. Concerning [[SRD:Spring Attack|Spring Attack]] and emerald razor, the only move action that can be done with spring attack is [[SRD:Move Actions#Move|move]] and the only standard action that can be done is an [[SRD:Standard Actions#Attack|attack action]] with a melee weapon. Emerald razor is a standard action, but even though you make an attack as part of the maneuver, it is not an attack action, so it can't be performed with [[SRD:Spring Attack|Spring Attack]]. Pretty much the only maneuvers that can be done with Spring Attack are the ones that have a swift or an immediate action as their initiation action. Mixing maneuvers all depends on what kind of action each requires. In a single round, you can perform one standard action, one move action, and one swift (or immediate) action, or instead of a standard and move action, you can perform a full-round action. So you could use shadow jaunt (standard), shadow stride (move), and shadow blink (swift) all in the same round. If you have the shadow pounce ability, you'll get three full-round attacks in one round.<br />
# As the rules are written, no, but I'd allow an exchange of a move or standard action to perform a swift action (maybe even an immediate action). Especially since the rules allow one to perform another move action in place of a standard action.<br />
# Page 43, "You do not multiply extra damage from a strike with a successful critical hit. You treat it just as you would extra damage from another special ability, such as sneak attack."<br />
# Not entirely sure on this one. As best as I can tell, it follows the normal rules of movement, so yes, you halve the result of the Jump check (round down to the nearest 5-foot increment). At least that's how I'd handle it.<br />
# I can't find anything that makes setting sun maneuvers an exception to that rule. Within the SRD storm giants and cloud giants are the only giants that are larger than Large, so that claim could still hold true with stone giants, ettins, trolls, ogres, etc... Another interpretation is that these are throws not trips, so they're only subject to the limitations of the trip attempt check. However, the [http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4dnd/20080124a FAQ] implies that they are trips, so you get the benefit of Improved Trip with every throw (another +4 and and an extra attack with a successful throw).<br />
#: That sounds about right.<br />
# Then I'd say that's an exception to the "readied only once" rule. Likewise, I'd say a character with levels in two different martial adept classes can have the same maneuver readied for each class.<br />
# Adaptive Style doesn't affect the number of expended/unexpended maneuvers you have unless you're a crusader. If you have five maneuvers ready and three have been expended, when you use Adaptive Style to change your readied maneuvers, you get to choose which two maneuvers are unexpended. You could use Adaptive Style without changing your readied maneuvers to swap your expended ones with unexpended ones, but unless you're a crusader, that would be a waste of a full-round action.<br />
# I'd say since the extra attacks are not part of the maneuver, you don't get the +4 bonus, but if you're using a reach weapon you don't have to limit the extra attacks to adjacent opponents.<br />
#: Double weapons have been a minor issue with things like that. Consequently, some DM's house-rule that once you use a weapon two-handed (not just double weapons), you can't employ two-weapon fighting (unless you have more than two hands), and vice-versa. In fact there's a number of issues with two-weapon fighting in general, that I'm hoping they'll address in 4E.<br />
# The first paragraph doesn't give any defined game-rule information, so go with the second paragraph.<br />
|- class="even"<br />
| style="border-left: none; border-right: none; border-top: none; font-size: smaller; line-height: 1.5em;" | ''There's no better laugh than the one that you're ashamed to share with your mother.''<div class="right">—Stephen Notley, creator of ''[http://www.angryflower.com/ Bob the Angry Flower]''</div><br />
''A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof was to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.''<div class="right">—Ford Prefect in "Mostly Harmless" by Douglas Adams</div><br />
|}<br />
<br />
=== [[User:Aarnott|Aarnott]]&nbsp;<small><small>10:30, 19 February 2008 (MST)</small></small> ===<br />
<br />
(In regard to 9) - Do you know if a Duskblade's spell channeling is a standard action or a full round action? Because that would be a lot of damage for low levels with a houserule like that Sledged. Blade of Blood, Blade of Blood, Greatsword, Shocking grasp -- 13d6 + 1.5x str damage? I'd also get a spellstoring weapon and store shocking grasp for an extra 5d6 :P. Even at level 1 - Blade of Blood x2 + greatsword = 7d6 damage (though 10 to you will be very poor at this level).<br />
<br />
Note that Quickened spells and powers do not work with this because you can only cast 1 of them a round (until epic feats).<br />
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| style="font-size: larger; border: none; font-weight: bold;" | [[User:Sledged|Sledged]] <span style="font-weight: normal; font-size: smaller">([[User talk:Sledged|talk]])<br/><span style="font-size: smaller;">2008 February 19 11:51 (MDT)</span></span><br />
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Arcane channeling is a standard action, unless you do it as part of a full-attack action, then it's a [[SRD:Action Types#Not an Action|not an action]].<br />
<br />
Casting ''blade of blood'' twice on the same weapon won't be any different than casting it once. See [[SRD:Casting Spells#Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths|Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths]]. The same goes for multiple ''[[SRD:Shocking Grasp|shocking grasp]]'' effects.<br />
<br />
In one of the various books, I think they updated Quicken Spell so that it's now a swift action.<br />
|- class="even"<br />
| style="border-left: none; border-right: none; border-top: none; font-size: smaller; line-height: 1.5em;" | ''There's no better laugh than the one that you're ashamed to share with your mother.''<div class="right">—Stephen Notley, creator of ''[http://www.angryflower.com/ Bob the Angry Flower]''</div><br />
''A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof was to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.''<div class="right">—Ford Prefect in "Mostly Harmless" by Douglas Adams</div><br />
|}<br />
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__NOTOC__</div>No problemhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Discussion:Tome_of_Battle_Questions_%26_Answers&diff=232125Discussion:Tome of Battle Questions & Answers2008-02-24T15:48:51Z<p>No problem: /* No problem&nbsp;<small><small>2008-02-11 15:20</small></small> */</p>
<hr />
<div>== Tome of Battle Questions ==<br />
<br />
=== [[User:No problem|No problem]]&nbsp;<small><small>2008-02-11 15:20</small></small> ===<br />
<br />
well, after a suggestion i read about vestiges by Sledged (which was great fun), i read tome of battle as well and i was similarly overjoyed. putting aside my own personal aversion to giving a fighter so many supernatural abilities which mimic spells (i speak of desert wind and shadow hand mostly), i thought the disciplines which gave "regular" extraordinary maneuvers were very much like it "should" be.<br />
<br />
some questions though.<br />
<br />
# what are the skills associated with the disciplines good for? some are useful like concentration and diamond mind and sense motive and setting sun, both of which make extensive use of the skills in many useful maneuvers, but for many of the other disciplines, i did not see any use of the skills associated with them. what did i miss? it cant be that a skill is associated with a discipline has no or very little effect.<br />
# also, something in the skill relating to the discipline seems a little broken. the diamond mind discipline has the 'insightful strike' which substitutes regular damage of an attack with a constitution checks (1d20+ranks+modifier). this seems highly suspect since magic can easily increase the bonus of this check greatly and in fact, such a bonus would be very cheap costwise (bonus squared times 100. for +20 cost would be 4000!). this could easily double the effective bonus for the constitution check and considering it is added to 1d20, well, that makes for a very deadly attack at a very low price. and if you use 'insightful attack, greater', well, the damage is doubled! this means an 11th level swordsage with 14 ranks in concentration and some magic item which gives a, say, +15 to concentration checks (not unreasonable! very reasonable in fact imo), damages (d20+29)x2 using the 'insightful attack, greater' which is a 6th lvl maneuver. this is an average of 80 hit points of damage. granted, the attack must be successful or the maneuver is spent, but this is true for all maneuvers and all who do this kind of damage are of much higher lvl and are not so easily "buffed up" by a cheap magic item.<br />
# i am unsure on whether you can prepare the same maneuver twice.<br />
# can a strike maneuver taking one standard action to initiate be part of a full attack action or can it be followed only by a move action (or preceded by one)?<br />
# is the damage cause by using a maneuver like 'tornado throw' caused by what happens after the throw or before the throw? cause if the subject is capable of flight or if the maneuver is carried out in the astral plane then this maneuver is useless if the damage is caused after the throw.<br />
# what is the 'shadow blink' shadow hand "maneuver"? tome of battle doesnt state. just says "teleportation". is it a maneuver? if so, strike counter or boost? stance?! or other? also, does a stance count as a maneuver for the purposes of determining whether one has, say, three maneuvers of a certain discipline to qualify for a maneuver which has a prerequisite of three maneuvers?<br />
# ok, so there are "other" maneuvers. as for the three shadow hand teleportation maneuvers. are they not supernatural? it does not state it is supernatural and strictly speaking, a maneuver is extraordinary unless stated otherwise. however, teleportation powers are never nonmagical. so which is it?<br />
# can i incorporate a maneuver into a feat or vice versa? like using emerald razor while using the spring attack feat. can i use a counter during a maneuver?<br />
# swift and immediate actions. i get one swift action per round with no cost. what if i want to use another swift action or two? or another immediate action or two? can i "pay" a move action for one or two swift or immediate actions? is there a formal or informal exchange rate? it can be very beneficial to be able to counter more than once. or change stances more than once per round.<br />
# how does 'strike of perfect clarity' interact with critical hits? is the +100 to damage doubled or is it added after you double the regular damage?<br />
# if i am asking too much, do tell. while using 'sudden leap', one incurs AoO unless one succeeds a tumble check. does tumbling while using a sudden leap reduce the distance jumped as tumbling during normal movement does?<br />
# the setting sun throw maneuvers require a (succesful touch attack and a) trip attempt. does this mean these maneuvers cannot be used on larger than large creatures (assuming one is medium sized and according to trip rules)? if so, it is quite restrictive especially for a discipline which boasts dealing well with giants (as in the story of eventide's edge).<br />
#: how does one resolve throwing someone 10 feet or more away and then attacking him? he is out of reach! i suppose you could rule that the subsequent attack is possible only if you throw him where you can reach him with a melee weapon. but would you allow a reach weapon capable of tripping to be used in the throw? what is a throw? is it something you do unarmed (like tripping though there are weapons which can trip)? can you use trip weapons for this attack? reach trip weapons? if unarmed is necessary, is one hand enough? can i hold a weapon (even a reach weapon) in the other hand? <br />
#:: actually, i just read in the discussion thread somewehere that the improved trip feat allows you an attack only if the original action was an attack. since the original action is not an attack but is a throw, or a trip, you get a trip which is irrelevent.<br />
# what about maneuvers and the 'fussion' power? if indeed one can ready a maneuver once only (meaning that maneuvers readied is not like spell slots) then what happens when one uses the 'fussion' power and has the same maneuver readied as the character to be fussioned with?<br />
# how does 'adaptive style' work when u dont have all ur maneuvers ready? say u had 7 and expended 3. can u use adaptive style to trade the 4 u have readied with any other 4? if so, what happens if one of the maneuvers traded is of of the 3 maneuvers i had earlier expended. i cant regain a maneuver i have readied. assuming, of course, that u can indeed ready only one instance at most of each maneuver.<br />
#: 'adamantine hurricane' is one standard action. which means i have a move action. so do i get the boost's extra attacks for free? do i still get to make the 'adamantine hurricane' attacks and the boost's attacks and then get a move action? pretty fearsome if you ask me. get a double bladed sword. use one end two handed for 'adamantine hurricane' and then the two ends for 4 more attacks at your BAB and then make a move action? freakin fearsome!<br />
# how does 'raging mongoose' boost stack with 'adamantine hurricane'?<br />
# 'shifting defense'. it states in first paragraph you get to make a 5' step if your opponent misses you and yet on second paragraph, which is usually the technical exact description, it states that every time an attacker attacks you you get to move 5'. which is it?<br />
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| style="font-size: larger; border: none; font-weight: bold;" | [[User:Sledged|Sledged]] <span style="font-weight: normal; font-size: smaller">([[User talk:Sledged|talk]])<br/><span style="font-size: smaller;">2008 February 15 12:05 (MDT)</span></span><br />
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# Mostly for flavor, but as you pointed some maneuvers require skill checks.<br />
# As best as I can tell, ''Tome of Battle'' was meant to narrow the gap between spellcasters and melee types. Your typical cleric makes a better melee type than barbarians, fighters, paladins, and rangers. 60 points of damage with a single attack is not so bad. A 11th-level wizard deals an average of 77 points of damage to a single creature with ''[[SRD:Disintegrate|disintegrate]]'', an average of 38.5 points of damage to up to 12 creatures with ''[[SRD:Chain Lightning|chain lighting]]'', and can effectively kill a single creature using ''[[SRD:Flesh to Stone|flesh to stone]]'' (all 6th-level spells).<br />
# I can't find anything that explicitly says so, but I think each maneuver can be prepared only once. Try contacting WotC help, or ask on the Wizards forums.<br />
# Standard actions (like [[SRD:Manyshot|Manyshot]]) may not be taken as part of any full-round action.<br />
# I believe damage is caused by the landing. This is one of those instances where the DM has to use his/her/its best judgement. In the case of flying creatures, I'd rule it that they still take damage, because the attack is so sudden they're not able to compensate fast enough to avoid the impact. With the astral plane, I'd rule that the target would have to be thrown into an object whose mass is greater than or equal to the target itself in order for damage to be done.<br />
# Shadow blink is an "other" maneuver. If you look at the sample shadow sun ninja on page 130, you'll see he has shadow jaunt, which is listed under "other." Stances are not maneuvers which is why they're always collectively referred to as "stances and maneuvers."<br />
# There's no blanket rule that says teleport abilities are always magic/psionic, even though it seems like there should be. So as they're written, those abilities are extraordinary.<br />
# There's no simple "yes" or "no" to that question. It depends on the feat and the maneuver in question. Concerning [[SRD:Spring Attack|Spring Attack]] and emerald razor, the only move action that can be done with spring attack is [[SRD:Move Actions#Move|move]] and the only standard action that can be done is an [[SRD:Standard Actions#Attack|attack action]] with a melee weapon. Emerald razor is a standard action, but even though you make an attack as part of the maneuver, it is not an attack action, so it can't be performed with [[SRD:Spring Attack|Spring Attack]]. Pretty much the only maneuvers that can be done with Spring Attack are the ones that have a swift or an immediate action as their initiation action. Mixing maneuvers all depends on what kind of action each requires. In a single round, you can perform one standard action, one move action, and one swift (or immediate) action, or instead of a standard and move action, you can perform a full-round action. So you could use shadow jaunt (standard), shadow stride (move), and shadow blink (swift) all in the same round. If you have the shadow pounce ability, you'll get three full-round attacks in one round.<br />
# As the rules are written, no, but I'd allow an exchange of a move or standard action to perform a swift action (maybe even an immediate action). Especially since the rules allow one to perform another move action in place of a standard action.<br />
# Page 43, "You do not multiply extra damage from a strike with a successful critical hit. You treat it just as you would extra damage from another special ability, such as sneak attack."<br />
# Not entirely sure on this one. As best as I can tell, it follows the normal rules of movement, so yes, you halve the result of the Jump check (round down to the nearest 5-foot increment). At least that's how I'd handle it.<br />
# I can't find anything that makes setting sun maneuvers an exception to that rule. Within the SRD storm giants and cloud giants are the only giants that are larger than Large, so that claim could still hold true with stone giants, ettins, trolls, ogres, etc... Another interpretation is that these are throws not trips, so they're only subject to the limitations of the trip attempt check. However, the [http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4dnd/20080124a FAQ] implies that they are trips, so you get the benefit of Improved Trip with every throw (another +4 and and an extra attack with a successful throw).<br />
#: That sounds about right.<br />
# Then I'd say that's an exception to the "readied only once" rule. Likewise, I'd say a character with levels in two different martial adept classes can have the same maneuver readied for each class.<br />
# Adaptive Style doesn't affect the number of expended/unexpended maneuvers you have unless you're a crusader. If you have five maneuvers ready and three have been expended, when you use Adaptive Style to change your readied maneuvers, you get to choose which two maneuvers are unexpended. You could use Adaptive Style without changing your readied maneuvers to swap your expended ones with unexpended ones, but unless you're a crusader, that would be a waste of a full-round action.<br />
# I'd say since the extra attacks are not part of the maneuver, you don't get the +4 bonus, but if you're using a reach weapon you don't have to limit the extra attacks to adjacent opponents.<br />
|- class="even"<br />
| style="border-left: none; border-right: none; border-top: none; font-size: smaller; line-height: 1.5em;" | ''There's no better laugh than the one that you're ashamed to share with your mother.''<div class="right">—Stephen Notley, creator of ''[http://www.angryflower.com/ Bob the Angry Flower]''</div><br />
''A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof was to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.''<div class="right">—Ford Prefect in "Mostly Harmless" by Douglas Adams</div><br />
|}<br />
<br />
=== [[User:Aarnott|Aarnott]]&nbsp;<small><small>10:30, 19 February 2008 (MST)</small></small> ===<br />
<br />
(In regard to 9) - Do you know if a Duskblade's spell channeling is a standard action or a full round action? Because that would be a lot of damage for low levels with a houserule like that Sledged. Blade of Blood, Blade of Blood, Greatsword, Shocking grasp -- 13d6 + 1.5x str damage? I'd also get a spellstoring weapon and store shocking grasp for an extra 5d6 :P. Even at level 1 - Blade of Blood x2 + greatsword = 7d6 damage (though 10 to you will be very poor at this level).<br />
<br />
Note that Quickened spells and powers do not work with this because you can only cast 1 of them a round (until epic feats).<br />
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| style="font-size: larger; border: none; font-weight: bold;" | [[User:Sledged|Sledged]] <span style="font-weight: normal; font-size: smaller">([[User talk:Sledged|talk]])<br/><span style="font-size: smaller;">2008 February 19 11:51 (MDT)</span></span><br />
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Arcane channeling is a standard action, unless you do it as part of a full-attack action, then it's a [[SRD:Action Types#Not an Action|not an action]].<br />
<br />
Casting ''blade of blood'' twice on the same weapon won't be any different than casting it once. See [[SRD:Casting Spells#Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths|Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths]]. The same goes for multiple ''[[SRD:Shocking Grasp|shocking grasp]]'' effects.<br />
<br />
In one of the various books, I think they updated Quicken Spell so that it's now a swift action.<br />
|- class="even"<br />
| style="border-left: none; border-right: none; border-top: none; font-size: smaller; line-height: 1.5em;" | ''There's no better laugh than the one that you're ashamed to share with your mother.''<div class="right">—Stephen Notley, creator of ''[http://www.angryflower.com/ Bob the Angry Flower]''</div><br />
''A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof was to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.''<div class="right">—Ford Prefect in "Mostly Harmless" by Douglas Adams</div><br />
|}<br />
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__NOTOC__</div>No problemhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Discussion:Tome_of_Battle_Questions_%26_Answers&diff=232091Discussion:Tome of Battle Questions & Answers2008-02-24T12:37:18Z<p>No problem: /* No problem&nbsp;<small><small>2008-02-11 15:20</small></small> */</p>
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<div>== Tome of Battle Questions ==<br />
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=== [[User:No problem|No problem]]&nbsp;<small><small>2008-02-11 15:20</small></small> ===<br />
<br />
well, after a suggestion i read about vestiges by Sledged (which was great fun), i read tome of battle as well and i was similarly overjoyed. putting aside my own personal aversion to giving a fighter so many supernatural abilities which mimic spells (i speak of desert wind and shadow hand mostly), i thought the disciplines which gave "regular" extraordinary maneuvers were very much like it "should" be.<br />
<br />
some questions though.<br />
<br />
# what are the skills associated with the disciplines good for? some are useful like concentration and diamond mind and sense motive and setting sun, both of which make extensive use of the skills in many useful maneuvers, but for many of the other disciplines, i did not see any use of the skills associated with them. what did i miss? it cant be that a skill is associated with a discipline has no or very little effect.<br />
# also, something in the skill relating to the discipline seems a little broken. the diamond mind discipline has the 'insightful strike' which substitutes regular damage of an attack with a constitution checks (1d20+ranks+modifier). this seems highly suspect since magic can easily increase the bonus of this check greatly and in fact, such a bonus would be very cheap costwise (bonus squared times 100. for +20 cost would be 4000!). this could easily double the effective bonus for the constitution check and considering it is added to 1d20, well, that makes for a very deadly attack at a very low price. and if you use 'insightful attack, greater', well, the damage is doubled! this means an 11th level swordsage with 14 ranks in concentration and some magic item which gives a, say, +15 to concentration checks (not unreasonable! very reasonable in fact imo), damages (d20+29)x2 using the 'insightful attack, greater' which is a 6th lvl maneuver. this is an average of 80 hit points of damage. granted, the attack must be successful or the maneuver is spent, but this is true for all maneuvers and all who do this kind of damage are of much higher lvl and are not so easily "buffed up" by a cheap magic item.<br />
# i am unsure on whether you can prepare the same maneuver twice.<br />
# can a strike maneuver taking one standard action to initiate be part of a full attack action or can it be followed only by a move action (or preceded by one)?<br />
# is the damage cause by using a maneuver like 'tornado throw' caused by what happens after the throw or before the throw? cause if the subject is capable of flight or if the maneuver is carried out in the astral plane then this maneuver is useless if the damage is caused after the throw.<br />
# what is the 'shadow blink' shadow hand "maneuver"? tome of battle doesnt state. just says "teleportation". is it a maneuver? if so, strike counter or boost? stance?! or other? also, does a stance count as a maneuver for the purposes of determining whether one has, say, three maneuvers of a certain discipline to qualify for a maneuver which has a prerequisite of three maneuvers?<br />
# ok, so there are "other" maneuvers. as for the three shadow hand teleportation maneuvers. are they not supernatural? it does not state it is supernatural and strictly speaking, a maneuver is extraordinary unless stated otherwise. however, teleportation powers are never nonmagical. so which is it?<br />
# can i incorporate a maneuver into a feat or vice versa? like using emerald razor while using the spring attack feat. can i use a counter during a maneuver?<br />
# swift and immediate actions. i get one swift action per round with no cost. what if i want to use another swift action or two? or another immediate action or two? can i "pay" a move action for one or two swift or immediate actions? is there a formal or informal exchange rate? it can be very beneficial to be able to counter more than once. or change stances more than once per round.<br />
# how does 'strike of perfect clarity' interact with critical hits? is the +100 to damage doubled or is it added after you double the regular damage?<br />
# if i am asking too much, do tell. while using 'sudden leap', one incurs AoO unless one succeeds a tumble check. does tumbling while using a sudden leap reduce the distance jumped as tumbling during normal movement does?<br />
# the setting sun throw maneuvers require a (succesful touch attack and a) trip attempt. does this mean these maneuvers cannot be used on larger than large creatures (assuming one is medium sized and according to trip rules)? if so, it is quite restrictive especially for a discipline which boasts dealing well with giants (as in the story of eventide's edge).<br />
#: how does one resolve throwing someone 10 feet or more away and then attacking him? he is out of reach! i suppose you could rule that the subsequent attack is possible only if you throw him where you can reach him with a melee weapon. but would you allow a reach weapon capable of tripping to be used in the throw? what is a throw? is it something you do unarmed (like tripping though there are weapons which can trip)? can you use trip weapons for this attack? reach trip weapons? if unarmed is necessary, is one hand enough? can i hold a weapon (even a reach weapon) in the other hand? <br />
#:: actually, i just read in the discussion thread somewehere that the improved trip feat allows you an attack only if the original action was an attack. since the original action is not an attack but is a throw, or a trip, you get a trip which is irrelevent.<br />
# what about maneuvers and the 'fussion' power? if indeed one can ready a maneuver once only (meaning that maneuvers readied is not like spell slots) then what happens when one uses the 'fussion' power and has the same maneuver readied as the character to be fussioned with?<br />
# how does 'adaptive style' work when u dont have all ur maneuvers ready? say u had 7 and expended 3. can u use adaptive style to trade the 4 u have readied with any other 4? if so, what happens if one of the maneuvers traded is of of the 3 maneuvers i had earlier expended. i cant regain a maneuver i have readied. assuming, of course, that u can indeed ready only one instance at most of each maneuver.<br />
#: 'adamantine hurricane' is one standard action. which means i have a move action. so do i get the boost's extra attacks for free? do i still get to make the 'adamantine hurricane' attacks and the boost's attacks and then get a move action? pretty fearsome if you ask me. get a double bladed sword. use one end two handed for 'adamantine hurricane' and then the two ends for 4 more attacks at your BAB and then make a move action? freakin fearsome!<br />
# how does 'raging mongoose' boost stack with 'adamantine hurricane'?<br />
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| style="font-size: larger; border: none; font-weight: bold;" | [[User:Sledged|Sledged]] <span style="font-weight: normal; font-size: smaller">([[User talk:Sledged|talk]])<br/><span style="font-size: smaller;">2008 February 15 12:05 (MDT)</span></span><br />
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| style="border: none;" |<br />
# Mostly for flavor, but as you pointed some maneuvers require skill checks.<br />
# As best as I can tell, ''Tome of Battle'' was meant to narrow the gap between spellcasters and melee types. Your typical cleric makes a better melee type than barbarians, fighters, paladins, and rangers. 60 points of damage with a single attack is not so bad. A 11th-level wizard deals an average of 77 points of damage to a single creature with ''[[SRD:Disintegrate|disintegrate]]'', an average of 38.5 points of damage to up to 12 creatures with ''[[SRD:Chain Lightning|chain lighting]]'', and can effectively kill a single creature using ''[[SRD:Flesh to Stone|flesh to stone]]'' (all 6th-level spells).<br />
# I can't find anything that explicitly says so, but I think each maneuver can be prepared only once. Try contacting WotC help, or ask on the Wizards forums.<br />
# Standard actions (like [[SRD:Manyshot|Manyshot]]) may not be taken as part of any full-round action.<br />
# I believe damage is caused by the landing. This is one of those instances where the DM has to use his/her/its best judgement. In the case of flying creatures, I'd rule it that they still take damage, because the attack is so sudden they're not able to compensate fast enough to avoid the impact. With the astral plane, I'd rule that the target would have to be thrown into an object whose mass is greater than or equal to the target itself in order for damage to be done.<br />
# Shadow blink is an "other" maneuver. If you look at the sample shadow sun ninja on page 130, you'll see he has shadow jaunt, which is listed under "other." Stances are not maneuvers which is why they're always collectively referred to as "stances and maneuvers."<br />
# There's no blanket rule that says teleport abilities are always magic/psionic, even though it seems like there should be. So as they're written, those abilities are extraordinary.<br />
# There's no simple "yes" or "no" to that question. It depends on the feat and the maneuver in question. Concerning [[SRD:Spring Attack|Spring Attack]] and emerald razor, the only move action that can be done with spring attack is [[SRD:Move Actions#Move|move]] and the only standard action that can be done is an [[SRD:Standard Actions#Attack|attack action]] with a melee weapon. Emerald razor is a standard action, but even though you make an attack as part of the maneuver, it is not an attack action, so it can't be performed with [[SRD:Spring Attack|Spring Attack]]. Pretty much the only maneuvers that can be done with Spring Attack are the ones that have a swift or an immediate action as their initiation action. Mixing maneuvers all depends on what kind of action each requires. In a single round, you can perform one standard action, one move action, and one swift (or immediate) action, or instead of a standard and move action, you can perform a full-round action. So you could use shadow jaunt (standard), shadow stride (move), and shadow blink (swift) all in the same round. If you have the shadow pounce ability, you'll get three full-round attacks in one round.<br />
# As the rules are written, no, but I'd allow an exchange of a move or standard action to perform a swift action (maybe even an immediate action). Especially since the rules allow one to perform another move action in place of a standard action.<br />
# Page 43, "You do not multiply extra damage from a strike with a successful critical hit. You treat it just as you would extra damage from another special ability, such as sneak attack."<br />
# Not entirely sure on this one. As best as I can tell, it follows the normal rules of movement, so yes, you halve the result of the Jump check (round down to the nearest 5-foot increment). At least that's how I'd handle it.<br />
# I can't find anything that makes setting sun maneuvers an exception to that rule. Within the SRD storm giants and cloud giants are the only giants that are larger than Large, so that claim could still hold true with stone giants, ettins, trolls, ogres, etc... Another interpretation is that these are throws not trips, so they're only subject to the limitations of the trip attempt check. However, the [http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4dnd/20080124a FAQ] implies that they are trips, so you get the benefit of Improved Trip with every throw (another +4 and and an extra attack with a successful throw).<br />
#: That sounds about right.<br />
# Then I'd say that's an exception to the "readied only once" rule. Likewise, I'd say a character with levels in two different martial adept classes can have the same maneuver readied for each class.<br />
# Adaptive Style doesn't affect the number of expended/unexpended maneuvers you have unless you're a crusader. If you have five maneuvers ready and three have been expended, when you use Adaptive Style to change your readied maneuvers, you get to choose which two maneuvers are unexpended. You could use Adaptive Style without changing your readied maneuvers to swap your expended ones with unexpended ones, but unless you're a crusader, that would be a waste of a full-round action.<br />
# I'd say since the extra attacks are not part of the maneuver, you don't get the +4 bonus, but if you're using a reach weapon you don't have to limit the extra attacks to adjacent opponents.<br />
|- class="even"<br />
| style="border-left: none; border-right: none; border-top: none; font-size: smaller; line-height: 1.5em;" | ''There's no better laugh than the one that you're ashamed to share with your mother.''<div class="right">—Stephen Notley, creator of ''[http://www.angryflower.com/ Bob the Angry Flower]''</div><br />
''A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof was to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.''<div class="right">—Ford Prefect in "Mostly Harmless" by Douglas Adams</div><br />
|}<br />
<br />
=== [[User:Aarnott|Aarnott]]&nbsp;<small><small>10:30, 19 February 2008 (MST)</small></small> ===<br />
<br />
(In regard to 9) - Do you know if a Duskblade's spell channeling is a standard action or a full round action? Because that would be a lot of damage for low levels with a houserule like that Sledged. Blade of Blood, Blade of Blood, Greatsword, Shocking grasp -- 13d6 + 1.5x str damage? I'd also get a spellstoring weapon and store shocking grasp for an extra 5d6 :P. Even at level 1 - Blade of Blood x2 + greatsword = 7d6 damage (though 10 to you will be very poor at this level).<br />
<br />
Note that Quickened spells and powers do not work with this because you can only cast 1 of them a round (until epic feats).<br />
<br />
<h3 style="height: 0px; border-bottom: 1px solid; overflow: hidden; padding-left: 0; padding-bottom: 0; padding-right: 0; margin: 0;">Sledged-20080219115121</h3><br />
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|- class="even"<br />
| style="font-size: larger; border: none; font-weight: bold;" | [[User:Sledged|Sledged]] <span style="font-weight: normal; font-size: smaller">([[User talk:Sledged|talk]])<br/><span style="font-size: smaller;">2008 February 19 11:51 (MDT)</span></span><br />
|-<br />
| style="border: none;" |<br />
Arcane channeling is a standard action, unless you do it as part of a full-attack action, then it's a [[SRD:Action Types#Not an Action|not an action]].<br />
<br />
Casting ''blade of blood'' twice on the same weapon won't be any different than casting it once. See [[SRD:Casting Spells#Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths|Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths]]. The same goes for multiple ''[[SRD:Shocking Grasp|shocking grasp]]'' effects.<br />
<br />
In one of the various books, I think they updated Quicken Spell so that it's now a swift action.<br />
|- class="even"<br />
| style="border-left: none; border-right: none; border-top: none; font-size: smaller; line-height: 1.5em;" | ''There's no better laugh than the one that you're ashamed to share with your mother.''<div class="right">—Stephen Notley, creator of ''[http://www.angryflower.com/ Bob the Angry Flower]''</div><br />
''A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof was to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.''<div class="right">—Ford Prefect in "Mostly Harmless" by Douglas Adams</div><br />
|}<br />
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__NOTOC__</div>No problemhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Discussion:What_wishes_do_you_allow%3F&diff=232081Discussion:What wishes do you allow?2008-02-24T09:06:08Z<p>No problem: /* What wishes do you allow? */</p>
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<div>== What wishes do you allow? == <br />
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=== [[User:No problem|No problem]]&nbsp;<small><small>03:44, 22 February 2008 (MST)</small></small> ===<br />
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so what wishes are "legal" in your campaign? and i dont mean the technical narrow interpretation of the exact wording in the description. i mean, what do you allow, or think should be allowed by wish spells (and limited wish).<br />
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=== [[User:Eiji|Eiji]]&nbsp;<small><small>09:37, 22 February 2008 (MST)</small></small> ===<br />
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Hard to say, you can do so much with it, and legality is first and foremost based on what is technically legal. I suppose you mean where do I draw the line... also hard to say since there's so many exceptions but...<br />
<br />
Well, obviously anything in the rules is legal. Outside it varies. If you tried to cast Awaken Construct (9th level and out of Wish's power) but had the material component (a brain) on hand, I'd allow it. Both spells take 5000 XP anyway, so there is practically no difference.<br />
<br />
For 9th level spells but no major abuses, I'd grant the wish and add a minor mishap that won't be traumatizing. Like: "I wish for a Gate spell". Done... if you used it for transport, you can, and there happens to be a battle going on over there at the time and you just jumped into it. Or called a creature, and it's a greedy bastard and wants more payment than what is typical.<br />
<br />
And then for things above it, then you can get fun with it. You want to revive the army of troops that was just wiped out? Sure... they all rise as skeletons and zombies. Whee!<br />
<br />
Unfortunately I can't really get any more specific than that.<br />
<br />
=== [[User:No problem|No problem]]&nbsp;<small><small>17:40, 22 February 2008 (MST)</small></small> ===<br />
while i did mean creative things, i also meant dull enhancement things. like, would you allow a wish to give you skill ranks, say to be used normally. not to exceed maximum ranks. if so, how many ranks? what about feats? how many feats per wish? would you allow epic feats for a wish, say a wish would grant you one epic feat which might seem reasonable since an epic feat can grant you +1 on ability score and a wish can do that as well though the bonuses are different kinds. if you allow regular or epic feats to be wished for, would you limit this number like inherent bonuses to ability scores, meaning, you can use wishes to get more than 5 feats or something like that. in short, ow many skill tanks per wish, how many feat per wish and would you allow a wish to grant you an epic feat if you have the requirement?<br />
<br />
on the "creative" side, would you allow a wish to transfer the properties of one magic item to another. say if i had a +3 longsword and a +2 vorpal shortsword, would you allow a wish to transfer the vorpal quality from shortsword to longswrod?<br />
<br />
plus, of course, amusing stories about wishes would be welcome :)<br />
<br />
=== [[User:Aarnott|Aarnott]]&nbsp;<small><small>17:50, 22 February 2008 (MST)</small></small> ===<br />
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I would allow wishes to give ''temporary skill ranks or temporary feats''. Think of Moment of Prescience (8th level spell, but a good example). You can get +20 to a single skill check. +10 to checks for a minute per level would probably be fair. Temporary feats for a minute per level would also be fine.<br />
<br />
For transferring the property, I'd figure out the cost difference. The +2 sword in your example loses 90k gp in value. The +3 sword gains 110k gp in value. This leaves a 20k difference in gold. Wish can do non-magical items up to 25k gp in value. So this example looks fair.<br />
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=== [[User:No problem|No problem]]&nbsp;<small><small>21:34, 22 February 2008 (MST)</small></small> ===<br />
i meant permanent skill and feat enhancements.<br />
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=== [[User:Aarnott|Aarnott]]&nbsp;<small><small>21:42, 22 February 2008 (MST)</small></small> ===<br />
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Yeah I wouldn't do that. You can have it make items that grant feats or skill bonuses as an alternative. In my opinion though, permanent bonuses should be gained through levels only.<br />
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=== [[User:Eiji|Eiji]]&nbsp;<small><small>00:42, 23 February 2008 (MST)</small></small> ===<br />
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As a rule the only perma-bonus you can get it the inherent +5 maximum to ability scores. <br />
<br />
I once heard of using it to get +5 natural armor in the same way as ability scores but I believe this to be a houserule.<br />
<br />
Wishing for other things tends to range from shaky to dangerous. I may potentially be convinced that you could wish for a single feat that you qualify for, but you're well into DM fiat territory.<br />
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=== [[User:No problem|No problem]]&nbsp;<small><small>01:13, 23 February 2008 (MST)</small></small> ===<br />
<br />
clearly this is DM's world which is why i asked you guys. but why shaky or dangerous? what differentiates +5 to some ability score to getting, say, 5 regular (nonepic) feats for which you qualify? i mean, had i been a DM (i am not) i would allow getting at least five feats in the same manner as getting inherent bonuses using 5 consecutive wish spells for example. why not? aside from the fact that the rules do not specifically address it. same for skill ranks. why not give the character some ranks? give me a game oriented reason. how does it damage the game? i mean, paying 5000 XP several times over is equivalent to giving up a level. and this goes on. and what about other things? can i wish for darkvision? low light vision? scent? blindsight? stuff like that. permanent.<br />
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=== [[User:Aarnott|Aarnott]]&nbsp;<small><small>14:24, 23 February 2008 (MST)</small></small> ===<br />
<br />
The problem with giving 5 feats is that they are so powerful. Yes, epic feats can add +1 to an ability score, but those are really weak feats. A wizard gets 7 feats by level 20. They do also only get 5 ability score increases. They can get ability score increases easily from items. Feats not so much. Feats are a limiting factor for a character build. They allow you to do more stuff usually. Ability scores don't. So allowing +5 to an ability score does not change the mechanics of a character build. Allowing extra feats does. This is why a lot of people find flaws to be overpowered. Getting extra feats is really powerful -- being able to wish for them is crazy.<br />
<br />
Skills on the other hand, I could actually see some argument for. There are enough ways to pump them up, why not a wish? On the other hand, isn't that what getting an inherent Int bonus does? It makes you better at learning skills. You'll get 2-3 skill points per level from 5 wishes. Well it is up to you. I'm not sure what I'd do (I'd probably allow it -- wish is expensive enough to warrant it).<br />
<br />
=== [[User:No problem|No problem]]&nbsp;<small><small>18:16, 23 February 2008 (MST)</small></small> ===<br />
as for skills, int boost allows your future skill points to add. you do not get them retroactively like hit point for constitution boosts. as for feats, a wizard gets 7 feats by level 20? maybe not including character feats. and anyway, only some feats allow you to do "new" things and again, paying that much XP? for a regular feat? it is powerful, yes. but in this way you would pay 25,000 XP for 5 regular feats. that is more than a level which means lesser BAB, caster/manufester level, hp, class abilities, skills points, possibly other feats and stuff like that. if u really and truly object to giving feats on the ground that they are too powerful cause they give new abilities, i could possibly see barring some feats from the least. but many feats are merely improvements on already existing abilities. the various wild shapes. the various weapon attack and damage feats. save feats. skill feats. why, just on memory, i would guess most feats are just boosts to regular existing abilities. and again, i am not sure 5000XP isnt worth any regular feat you qualify for. i seem to recall (though i may be wrong) that in 4E there will be something like XP for class abilities or feat like things. makes sense. i personally hate having to multiclass just to get certain abilities. why not pay for them in XP?<br />
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=== [[User:Eiji|Eiji]]&nbsp;<small><small>19:41, 23 February 2008 (MST)</small></small> ===<br />
<br />
But multiclassing is so delicious!<br />
<br />
Half the reason lies in issues with qualifying for PrCs, half in the power of feats. Asking for the ability of a feat without actually gaining the feat is significantly weaker (and thus more wish worthy) that getting the actual feat. You might convince your DM that 1 extra hp per level for 5000xp is good (Improved Toughness in spirit), but if you get Improved Toughness, you've just opened up a path to a new chain of feats and PrCs, and that value is greater than the loss of XP (which is a renewable resource mind you, fight some and you'll get it back). In addition feats are extraordinary effects. Consider how much an item costs when it gives an effect (anything at all), which can never be dispelled and are immune to antimagic fields. You will always have your +1 Dodge to AC or your 1 hp per level or your ability to crit well with Longswords, and they can't take it away.<br />
<br />
IMHO though the risk doesn't seem worth it. Pretty much all of those requests are DM fiat, and he could puppet you around. Given the great power Wish possesses, any sane DM is apt to keep a tight rein on what it can do and be wary of those trying to do strange things with its power.<br />
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=== [[User:No problem|No problem]]&nbsp;<small><small>02:06, 24 February 2008 (MST)</small></small> ===<br />
ability score increase is nondispellable as well. so what? feats are extraordinary, yes but so what? so are class abilities for most part and paying 5000XP means you get them much later in the game. so you trade time till you get other abilities to get now an ability. it's a trade off. and again, i know it's DM's decision. i am just asking. and asking why. and then violently diasgreeing cause you are all wrong wrong wrong!<br />
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__NOTOC__</div>No problemhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Discussion:What_wishes_do_you_allow%3F&diff=232015Discussion:What wishes do you allow?2008-02-24T01:16:36Z<p>No problem: /* What wishes do you allow? */</p>
<hr />
<div>== What wishes do you allow? == <br />
<br />
=== [[User:No problem|No problem]]&nbsp;<small><small>03:44, 22 February 2008 (MST)</small></small> ===<br />
<br />
so what wishes are "legal" in your campaign? and i dont mean the technical narrow interpretation of the exact wording in the description. i mean, what do you allow, or think should be allowed by wish spells (and limited wish).<br />
<br />
=== [[User:Eiji|Eiji]]&nbsp;<small><small>09:37, 22 February 2008 (MST)</small></small> ===<br />
<br />
Hard to say, you can do so much with it, and legality is first and foremost based on what is technically legal. I suppose you mean where do I draw the line... also hard to say since there's so many exceptions but...<br />
<br />
Well, obviously anything in the rules is legal. Outside it varies. If you tried to cast Awaken Construct (9th level and out of Wish's power) but had the material component (a brain) on hand, I'd allow it. Both spells take 5000 XP anyway, so there is practically no difference.<br />
<br />
For 9th level spells but no major abuses, I'd grant the wish and add a minor mishap that won't be traumatizing. Like: "I wish for a Gate spell". Done... if you used it for transport, you can, and there happens to be a battle going on over there at the time and you just jumped into it. Or called a creature, and it's a greedy bastard and wants more payment than what is typical.<br />
<br />
And then for things above it, then you can get fun with it. You want to revive the army of troops that was just wiped out? Sure... they all rise as skeletons and zombies. Whee!<br />
<br />
Unfortunately I can't really get any more specific than that.<br />
<br />
=== [[User:No problem|No problem]]&nbsp;<small><small>17:40, 22 February 2008 (MST)</small></small> ===<br />
while i did mean creative things, i also meant dull enhancement things. like, would you allow a wish to give you skill ranks, say to be used normally. not to exceed maximum ranks. if so, how many ranks? what about feats? how many feats per wish? would you allow epic feats for a wish, say a wish would grant you one epic feat which might seem reasonable since an epic feat can grant you +1 on ability score and a wish can do that as well though the bonuses are different kinds. if you allow regular or epic feats to be wished for, would you limit this number like inherent bonuses to ability scores, meaning, you can use wishes to get more than 5 feats or something like that. in short, ow many skill tanks per wish, how many feat per wish and would you allow a wish to grant you an epic feat if you have the requirement?<br />
<br />
on the "creative" side, would you allow a wish to transfer the properties of one magic item to another. say if i had a +3 longsword and a +2 vorpal shortsword, would you allow a wish to transfer the vorpal quality from shortsword to longswrod?<br />
<br />
plus, of course, amusing stories about wishes would be welcome :)<br />
<br />
=== [[User:Aarnott|Aarnott]]&nbsp;<small><small>17:50, 22 February 2008 (MST)</small></small> ===<br />
<br />
I would allow wishes to give ''temporary skill ranks or temporary feats''. Think of Moment of Prescience (8th level spell, but a good example). You can get +20 to a single skill check. +10 to checks for a minute per level would probably be fair. Temporary feats for a minute per level would also be fine.<br />
<br />
For transferring the property, I'd figure out the cost difference. The +2 sword in your example loses 90k gp in value. The +3 sword gains 110k gp in value. This leaves a 20k difference in gold. Wish can do non-magical items up to 25k gp in value. So this example looks fair.<br />
<br />
=== [[User:No problem|No problem]]&nbsp;<small><small>21:34, 22 February 2008 (MST)</small></small> ===<br />
i meant permanent skill and feat enhancements.<br />
<br />
=== [[User:Aarnott|Aarnott]]&nbsp;<small><small>21:42, 22 February 2008 (MST)</small></small> ===<br />
<br />
Yeah I wouldn't do that. You can have it make items that grant feats or skill bonuses as an alternative. In my opinion though, permanent bonuses should be gained through levels only.<br />
<br />
=== [[User:Eiji|Eiji]]&nbsp;<small><small>00:42, 23 February 2008 (MST)</small></small> ===<br />
<br />
As a rule the only perma-bonus you can get it the inherent +5 maximum to ability scores. <br />
<br />
I once heard of using it to get +5 natural armor in the same way as ability scores but I believe this to be a houserule.<br />
<br />
Wishing for other things tends to range from shaky to dangerous. I may potentially be convinced that you could wish for a single feat that you qualify for, but you're well into DM fiat territory.<br />
<br />
=== [[User:No problem|No problem]]&nbsp;<small><small>01:13, 23 February 2008 (MST)</small></small> ===<br />
<br />
clearly this is DM's world which is why i asked you guys. but why shaky or dangerous? what differentiates +5 to some ability score to getting, say, 5 regular (nonepic) feats for which you qualify? i mean, had i been a DM (i am not) i would allow getting at least five feats in the same manner as getting inherent bonuses using 5 consecutive wish spells for example. why not? aside from the fact that the rules do not specifically address it. same for skill ranks. why not give the character some ranks? give me a game oriented reason. how does it damage the game? i mean, paying 5000 XP several times over is equivalent to giving up a level. and this goes on. and what about other things? can i wish for darkvision? low light vision? scent? blindsight? stuff like that. permanent.<br />
<br />
=== [[User:Aarnott|Aarnott]]&nbsp;<small><small>14:24, 23 February 2008 (MST)</small></small> ===<br />
<br />
The problem with giving 5 feats is that they are so powerful. Yes, epic feats can add +1 to an ability score, but those are really weak feats. A wizard gets 7 feats by level 20. They do also only get 5 ability score increases. They can get ability score increases easily from items. Feats not so much. Feats are a limiting factor for a character build. They allow you to do more stuff usually. Ability scores don't. So allowing +5 to an ability score does not change the mechanics of a character build. Allowing extra feats does. This is why a lot of people find flaws to be overpowered. Getting extra feats is really powerful -- being able to wish for them is crazy.<br />
<br />
Skills on the other hand, I could actually see some argument for. There are enough ways to pump them up, why not a wish? On the other hand, isn't that what getting an inherent Int bonus does? It makes you better at learning skills. You'll get 2-3 skill points per level from 5 wishes. Well it is up to you. I'm not sure what I'd do (I'd probably allow it -- wish is expensive enough to warrant it).<br />
<br />
=== [[User:No problem|No problem]]&nbsp;<small><small>18:16, 23 February 2008 (MST)</small></small> ===<br />
as for skills, int boost allows your future skill points to add. you do not get them retroactively like hit point for constitution boosts. as for feats, a wizard gets 7 feats by level 20? maybe not including character feats. and anyway, only some feats allow you to do "new" things and again, paying that much XP? for a regular feat? it is powerful, yes. but in this way you would pay 25,000 XP for 5 regular feats. that is more than a level which means lesser BAB, caster/manufester level, hp, class abilities, skills points, possibly other feats and stuff like that. if u really and truly object to giving feats on the ground that they are too powerful cause they give new abilities, i could possibly see barring some feats from the least. but many feats are merely improvements on already existing abilities. the various wild shapes. the various weapon attack and damage feats. save feats. skill feats. why, just on memory, i would guess most feats are just boosts to regular existing abilities. and again, i am not sure 5000XP isnt worth any regular feat you qualify for. i seem to recall (though i may be wrong) that in 4E there will be something like XP for class abilities or feat like things. makes sense. i personally hate having to multiclass just to get certain abilities. why not pay for them in XP?<br />
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__NOTOC__</div>No problemhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Discussion:Tome_of_Battle_Questions_%26_Answers&diff=231823Discussion:Tome of Battle Questions & Answers2008-02-23T14:47:59Z<p>No problem: /* 84.108.164.233&nbsp;<small><small>2008-02-11 15:20</small></small> */</p>
<hr />
<div>== Tome of Battle Questions ==<br />
<br />
=== [[Special:Contributions/84.108.164.233|84.108.164.233]]&nbsp;<small><small>2008-02-11 15:20</small></small> ===<br />
<br />
well, after a suggestion i read about vestiges by Sledged (which was great fun), i read tome of battle as well and i was similarly overjoyed. putting aside my own personal aversion to giving a fighter so many supernatural abilities which mimic spells (i speak of desert wind and shadow hand mostly), i thought the disciplines which gave "regular" extraordinary maneuvers were very much like it "should" be.<br />
<br />
some questions though.<br />
<br />
# what are the skills associated with the disciplines good for? some are useful like concentration and diamond mind and sense motive and setting sun, both of which make extensive use of the skills in many useful maneuvers, but for many of the other disciplines, i did not see any use of the skills associated with them. what did i miss? it cant be that a skill is associated with a discipline has no or very little effect.<br />
# also, something in the skill relating to the discipline seems a little broken. the diamond mind discipline has the 'insightful strike' which substitutes regular damage of an attack with a constitution checks (1d20+ranks+modifier). this seems highly suspect since magic can easily increase the bonus of this check greatly and in fact, such a bonus would be very cheap costwise (bonus squared times 100. for +20 cost would be 4000!). this could easily double the effective bonus for the constitution check and considering it is added to 1d20, well, that makes for a very deadly attack at a very low price. and if you use 'insightful attack, greater', well, the damage is doubled! this means an 11th level swordsage with 14 ranks in concentration and some magic item which gives a, say, +15 to concentration checks (not unreasonable! very reasonable in fact imo), damages (d20+29)x2 using the 'insightful attack, greater' which is a 6th lvl maneuver. this is an average of 80 hit points of damage. granted, the attack must be successful or the maneuver is spent, but this is true for all maneuvers and all who do this kind of damage are of much higher lvl and are not so easily "buffed up" by a cheap magic item.<br />
# i am unsure on whether you can prepare the same maneuver twice.<br />
# can a strike maneuver taking one standard action to initiate be part of a full attack action or can it be followed only by a move action (or preceded by one)?<br />
# is the damage cause by using a maneuver like 'tornado throw' caused by what happens after the throw or before the throw? cause if the subject is capable of flight or if the maneuver is carried out in the astral plane then this maneuver is useless if the damage is caused after the throw.<br />
# what is the 'shadow blink' shadow hand "maneuver"? tome of battle doesnt state. just says "teleportation". is it a maneuver? if so, strike counter or boost? stance?! or other? also, does a stance count as a maneuver for the purposes of determining whether one has, say, three maneuvers of a certain discipline to qualify for a maneuver which has a prerequisite of three maneuvers?<br />
# ok, so there are "other" maneuvers. as for the three shadow hand teleportation maneuvers. are they not supernatural? it does not state it is supernatural and strictly speaking, a maneuver is extraordinary unless stated otherwise. however, teleportation powers are never nonmagical. so which is it?<br />
# can i incorporate a maneuver into a feat or vice versa? like using emerald razor while using the spring attack feat. can i use a counter during a maneuver?<br />
# swift and immediate actions. i get one swift action per round with no cost. what if i want to use another swift action or two? or another immediate action or two? can i "pay" a move action for one or two swift or immediate actions? is there a formal or informal exchange rate? it can be very beneficial to be able to counter more than once. or change stances more than once per round.<br />
# how does 'strike of perfect clarity' interact with critical hits? is the +100 to damage doubled or is it added after you double the regular damage?<br />
# if i am asking too much, do tell. while using 'sudden leap', one incurs AoO unless one succeeds a tumble check. does tumbling while using a sudden leap reduce the distance jumped as tumbling during normal movement does?<br />
# the setting sun throw maneuvers require a (succesful touch attack and a) trip attempt. does this mean these maneuvers cannot be used on larger than large creatures (assuming one is medium sized and according to trip rules)? if so, it is quite restrictive especially for a discipline which boasts dealing well with giants (as in the story of eventide's edge).<br />
#: how does one resolve throwing someone 10 feet or more away and then attacking him? he is out of reach! i suppose you could rule that the subsequent attack is possible only if you throw him where you can reach him with a melee weapon. but would you allow a reach weapon capable of tripping to be used in the throw? what is a throw? is it something you do unarmed (like tripping though there are weapons which can trip)? can you use trip weapons for this attack? reach trip weapons? if unarmed is necessary, is one hand enough? can i hold a weapon (even a reach weapon) in the other hand? <br />
#:: actually, i just read in the discussion thread somewehere that the improved trip feat allows you an attack only if the original action was an attack. since the original action is not an attack but is a throw, or a trip, you get a trip which is irrelevent.<br />
# what about maneuvers and the 'fussion' power? if indeed one can ready a maneuver once only (meaning that maneuvers readied is not like spell slots) then what happens when one uses the 'fussion' power and has the same maneuver readied as the character to be fussioned with?<br />
# how does 'adaptive style' work when u dont have all ur maneuvers ready? say u had 7 and expended 3. can u use adaptive style to trade the 4 u have readied with any other 4? if so, what happens if one of the maneuvers traded is of of the 3 maneuvers i had earlier expended. i cant regain a maneuver i have readied. assuming, of course, that u can indeed ready only one instance at most of each maneuver.<br />
# how does 'raging mongoose' boost stack with 'adamantine hurricane'?<br />
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| style="font-size: larger; border: none; font-weight: bold;" | [[User:Sledged|Sledged]] <span style="font-weight: normal; font-size: smaller">([[User talk:Sledged|talk]])<br/><span style="font-size: smaller;">2008 February 15 12:05 (MDT)</span></span><br />
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# Mostly for flavor, but as you pointed some maneuvers require skill checks.<br />
# As best as I can tell, ''Tome of Battle'' was meant to narrow the gap between spellcasters and melee types. Your typical cleric makes a better melee type than barbarians, fighters, paladins, and rangers. 60 points of damage with a single attack is not so bad. A 11th-level wizard deals an average of 77 points of damage to a single creature with ''[[SRD:Disintegrate|disintegrate]]'', an average of 38.5 points of damage to up to 12 creatures with ''[[SRD:Chain Lightning|chain lighting]]'', and can effectively kill a single creature using ''[[SRD:Flesh to Stone|flesh to stone]]'' (all 6th-level spells).<br />
# I can't find anything that explicitly says so, but I think each maneuver can be prepared only once. Try contacting WotC help, or ask on the Wizards forums.<br />
# Standard actions (like [[SRD:Manyshot|Manyshot]]) may not be taken as part of any full-round action.<br />
# I believe damage is caused by the landing. This is one of those instances where the DM has to use his/her/its best judgement. In the case of flying creatures, I'd rule it that they still take damage, because the attack is so sudden they're not able to compensate fast enough to avoid the impact. With the astral plane, I'd rule that the target would have to be thrown into an object whose mass is greater than or equal to the target itself in order for damage to be done.<br />
# Shadow blink is an "other" maneuver. If you look at the sample shadow sun ninja on page 130, you'll see he has shadow jaunt, which is listed under "other." Stances are not maneuvers which is why they're always collectively referred to as "stances and maneuvers."<br />
# There's no blanket rule that says teleport abilities are always magic/psionic, even though it seems like there should be. So as they're written, those abilities are extraordinary.<br />
# There's no simple "yes" or "no" to that question. It depends on the feat and the maneuver in question. Concerning [[SRD:Spring Attack|Spring Attack]] and emerald razor, the only move action that can be done with spring attack is [[SRD:Move Actions#Move|move]] and the only standard action that can be done is an [[SRD:Standard Actions#Attack|attack action]] with a melee weapon. Emerald razor is a standard action, but even though you make an attack as part of the maneuver, it is not an attack action, so it can't be performed with [[SRD:Spring Attack|Spring Attack]]. Pretty much the only maneuvers that can be done with Spring Attack are the ones that have a swift or an immediate action as their initiation action. Mixing maneuvers all depends on what kind of action each requires. In a single round, you can perform one standard action, one move action, and one swift (or immediate) action, or instead of a standard and move action, you can perform a full-round action. So you could use shadow jaunt (standard), shadow stride (move), and shadow blink (swift) all in the same round. If you have the shadow pounce ability, you'll get three full-round attacks in one round.<br />
# As the rules are written, no, but I'd allow an exchange of a move or standard action to perform a swift action (maybe even an immediate action). Especially since the rules allow one to perform another move action in place of a standard action.<br />
# Page 43, "You do not multiply extra damage from a strike with a successful critical hit. You treat it just as you would extra damage from another special ability, such as sneak attack."<br />
# Not entirely sure on this one. As best as I can tell, it follows the normal rules of movement, so yes, you halve the result of the Jump check (round down to the nearest 5-foot increment). At least that's how I'd handle it.<br />
# I can't find anything that makes setting sun maneuvers an exception to that rule. Within the SRD storm giants and cloud giants are the only giants that are larger than Large, so that claim could still hold true with stone giants, ettins, trolls, ogres, etc... Another interpretation is that these are throws not trips, so they're only subject to the limitations of the trip attempt check. However, the [http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4dnd/20080124a FAQ] implies that they are trips, so you get the benefit of Improved Trip with every throw (another +4 and and an extra attack with a successful throw).<br />
#: That sounds about right.<br />
# Then I'd say that's an exception to the "readied only once" rule. Likewise, I'd say a character with levels in two different martial adept classes can have the same maneuver readied for each class.<br />
|- class="even"<br />
| style="border-left: none; border-right: none; border-top: none; font-size: smaller; line-height: 1.5em;" | ''There's no better laugh than the one that you're ashamed to share with your mother.''<div class="right">—Stephen Notley, creator of ''[http://www.angryflower.com/ Bob the Angry Flower]''</div><br />
''A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof was to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.''<div class="right">—Ford Prefect in "Mostly Harmless" by Douglas Adams</div><br />
|}<br />
<br />
=== [[User:Aarnott|Aarnott]]&nbsp;<small><small>10:30, 19 February 2008 (MST)</small></small> ===<br />
<br />
(In regard to 9) - Do you know if a Duskblade's spell channeling is a standard action or a full round action? Because that would be a lot of damage for low levels with a houserule like that Sledged. Blade of Blood, Blade of Blood, Greatsword, Shocking grasp -- 13d6 + 1.5x str damage? I'd also get a spellstoring weapon and store shocking grasp for an extra 5d6 :P. Even at level 1 - Blade of Blood x2 + greatsword = 7d6 damage (though 10 to you will be very poor at this level).<br />
<br />
Note that Quickened spells and powers do not work with this because you can only cast 1 of them a round (until epic feats).<br />
<br />
<h3 style="height: 0px; border-bottom: 1px solid; overflow: hidden; padding-left: 0; padding-bottom: 0; padding-right: 0; margin: 0;">Sledged-20080219115121</h3><br />
{| class="d20" style="padding: 0; margin: 0; text-align: left; width: 100%; border: none;" cellspacing="0"<br />
|- class="even"<br />
| style="font-size: larger; border: none; font-weight: bold;" | [[User:Sledged|Sledged]] <span style="font-weight: normal; font-size: smaller">([[User talk:Sledged|talk]])<br/><span style="font-size: smaller;">2008 February 19 11:51 (MDT)</span></span><br />
|-<br />
| style="border: none;" |<br />
Arcane channeling is a standard action, unless you do it as part of a full-attack action, then it's a [[SRD:Action Types#Not an Action|not an action]].<br />
<br />
Casting ''blade of blood'' twice on the same weapon won't be any different than casting it once. See [[SRD:Casting Spells#Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths|Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths]]. The same goes for multiple ''[[SRD:Shocking Grasp|shocking grasp]]'' effects.<br />
<br />
In one of the various books, I think they updated Quicken Spell so that it's now a swift action.<br />
|- class="even"<br />
| style="border-left: none; border-right: none; border-top: none; font-size: smaller; line-height: 1.5em;" | ''There's no better laugh than the one that you're ashamed to share with your mother.''<div class="right">—Stephen Notley, creator of ''[http://www.angryflower.com/ Bob the Angry Flower]''</div><br />
''A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof was to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.''<div class="right">—Ford Prefect in "Mostly Harmless" by Douglas Adams</div><br />
|}<br />
<br />
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{{Forumfooter|Discussion}}<br />
__NOTOC__</div>No problemhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Discussion:Tome_of_Battle_Questions_%26_Answers&diff=231822Discussion:Tome of Battle Questions & Answers2008-02-23T14:47:00Z<p>No problem: /* 84.108.164.233&nbsp;<small><small>2008-02-11 15:20</small></small> */</p>
<hr />
<div>== Tome of Battle Questions ==<br />
<br />
=== [[Special:Contributions/84.108.164.233|84.108.164.233]]&nbsp;<small><small>2008-02-11 15:20</small></small> ===<br />
<br />
well, after a suggestion i read about vestiges by Sledged (which was great fun), i read tome of battle as well and i was similarly overjoyed. putting aside my own personal aversion to giving a fighter so many supernatural abilities which mimic spells (i speak of desert wind and shadow hand mostly), i thought the disciplines which gave "regular" extraordinary maneuvers were very much like it "should" be.<br />
<br />
some questions though.<br />
<br />
# what are the skills associated with the disciplines good for? some are useful like concentration and diamond mind and sense motive and setting sun, both of which make extensive use of the skills in many useful maneuvers, but for many of the other disciplines, i did not see any use of the skills associated with them. what did i miss? it cant be that a skill is associated with a discipline has no or very little effect.<br />
# also, something in the skill relating to the discipline seems a little broken. the diamond mind discipline has the 'insightful strike' which substitutes regular damage of an attack with a constitution checks (1d20+ranks+modifier). this seems highly suspect since magic can easily increase the bonus of this check greatly and in fact, such a bonus would be very cheap costwise (bonus squared times 100. for +20 cost would be 4000!). this could easily double the effective bonus for the constitution check and considering it is added to 1d20, well, that makes for a very deadly attack at a very low price. and if you use 'insightful attack, greater', well, the damage is doubled! this means an 11th level swordsage with 14 ranks in concentration and some magic item which gives a, say, +15 to concentration checks (not unreasonable! very reasonable in fact imo), damages (d20+29)x2 using the 'insightful attack, greater' which is a 6th lvl maneuver. this is an average of 80 hit points of damage. granted, the attack must be successful or the maneuver is spent, but this is true for all maneuvers and all who do this kind of damage are of much higher lvl and are not so easily "buffed up" by a cheap magic item.<br />
# i am unsure on whether you can prepare the same maneuver twice.<br />
# can a strike maneuver taking one standard action to initiate be part of a full attack action or can it be followed only by a move action (or preceded by one)?<br />
# is the damage cause by using a maneuver like 'tornado throw' caused by what happens after the throw or before the throw? cause if the subject is capable of flight or if the maneuver is carried out in the astral plane then this maneuver is useless if the damage is caused after the throw.<br />
# what is the 'shadow blink' shadow hand "maneuver"? tome of battle doesnt state. just says "teleportation". is it a maneuver? if so, strike counter or boost? stance?! or other? also, does a stance count as a maneuver for the purposes of determining whether one has, say, three maneuvers of a certain discipline to qualify for a maneuver which has a prerequisite of three maneuvers?<br />
# ok, so there are "other" maneuvers. as for the three shadow hand teleportation maneuvers. are they not supernatural? it does not state it is supernatural and strictly speaking, a maneuver is extraordinary unless stated otherwise. however, teleportation powers are never nonmagical. so which is it?<br />
# can i incorporate a maneuver into a feat or vice versa? like using emerald razor while using the spring attack feat. can i use a counter during a maneuver?<br />
# swift and immediate actions. i get one swift action per round with no cost. what if i want to use another swift action or two? or another immediate action or two? can i "pay" a move action for one or two swift or immediate actions? is there a formal or informal exchange rate? it can be very beneficial to be able to counter more than once. or change stances more than once per round.<br />
# how does 'strike of perfect clarity' interact with critical hits? is the +100 to damage doubled or is it added after you double the regular damage?<br />
# if i am asking too much, do tell. while using 'sudden leap', one incurs AoO unless one succeeds a tumble check. does tumbling while using a sudden leap reduce the distance jumped as tumbling during normal movement does?<br />
# the setting sun throw maneuvers require a (succesful touch attack and a) trip attempt. does this mean these maneuvers cannot be used on larger than large creatures (assuming one is medium sized and according to trip rules)? if so, it is quite restrictive especially for a discipline which boasts dealing well with giants (as in the story of eventide's edge).<br />
#: how does one resolve throwing someone 10 feet or more away and then attacking him? he is out of reach! i suppose you could rule that the subsequent attack is possible only if you throw him where you can reach him with a melee weapon. but would you allow a reach weapon capable of tripping to be used in the throw? what is a throw? is it something you do unarmed (like tripping though there are weapons which can trip)? can you use trip weapons for this attack? reach trip weapons? if unarmed is necessary, is one hand enough? can i hold a weapon (even a reach weapon) in the other hand? <br />
#:: actually, i just read in the discussion thread somewehere that the improved trip feat allows you an attack only if the original action was an attack. since the original action is not an attack but is a throw, or a trip, you get a trip which is irrelevent.<br />
# what about maneuvers and the 'fussion' power? if indeed one can ready a maneuver once only (meaning that maneuvers readied is not like spell slots) then what happens when one uses the 'fussion' power and has the same maneuver readied as the character to be fussioned with?<br />
# how does 'adaptive style' work when u dont have all ur maneuvers ready? say u had 7 and expended 3. can u use adaptive style to trade the 4 u have readied with any other 4? if so, what happens if one of the maneuvers traded is of of the 3 maneuvers i had earlier expended. i cant regain a maneuver i have readied. assuming, of course, that u can indeed ready only one instance at most of each maneuver.<br />
# how does 'raging mongoose' boost stack with 'admantine hurricane'?<br />
<br />
<h3 style="height: 0px; border-bottom: 1px solid; overflow: hidden; padding-left: 0; padding-bottom: 0; padding-right: 0; margin: 0;">Sledged-20080213120512</h3><br />
{| class="d20" style="padding: 0; margin: 0; text-align: left; width: 100%; border: none;" cellspacing="0"<br />
|- class="even"<br />
| style="font-size: larger; border: none; font-weight: bold;" | [[User:Sledged|Sledged]] <span style="font-weight: normal; font-size: smaller">([[User talk:Sledged|talk]])<br/><span style="font-size: smaller;">2008 February 15 12:05 (MDT)</span></span><br />
|-<br />
| style="border: none;" |<br />
# Mostly for flavor, but as you pointed some maneuvers require skill checks.<br />
# As best as I can tell, ''Tome of Battle'' was meant to narrow the gap between spellcasters and melee types. Your typical cleric makes a better melee type than barbarians, fighters, paladins, and rangers. 60 points of damage with a single attack is not so bad. A 11th-level wizard deals an average of 77 points of damage to a single creature with ''[[SRD:Disintegrate|disintegrate]]'', an average of 38.5 points of damage to up to 12 creatures with ''[[SRD:Chain Lightning|chain lighting]]'', and can effectively kill a single creature using ''[[SRD:Flesh to Stone|flesh to stone]]'' (all 6th-level spells).<br />
# I can't find anything that explicitly says so, but I think each maneuver can be prepared only once. Try contacting WotC help, or ask on the Wizards forums.<br />
# Standard actions (like [[SRD:Manyshot|Manyshot]]) may not be taken as part of any full-round action.<br />
# I believe damage is caused by the landing. This is one of those instances where the DM has to use his/her/its best judgement. In the case of flying creatures, I'd rule it that they still take damage, because the attack is so sudden they're not able to compensate fast enough to avoid the impact. With the astral plane, I'd rule that the target would have to be thrown into an object whose mass is greater than or equal to the target itself in order for damage to be done.<br />
# Shadow blink is an "other" maneuver. If you look at the sample shadow sun ninja on page 130, you'll see he has shadow jaunt, which is listed under "other." Stances are not maneuvers which is why they're always collectively referred to as "stances and maneuvers."<br />
# There's no blanket rule that says teleport abilities are always magic/psionic, even though it seems like there should be. So as they're written, those abilities are extraordinary.<br />
# There's no simple "yes" or "no" to that question. It depends on the feat and the maneuver in question. Concerning [[SRD:Spring Attack|Spring Attack]] and emerald razor, the only move action that can be done with spring attack is [[SRD:Move Actions#Move|move]] and the only standard action that can be done is an [[SRD:Standard Actions#Attack|attack action]] with a melee weapon. Emerald razor is a standard action, but even though you make an attack as part of the maneuver, it is not an attack action, so it can't be performed with [[SRD:Spring Attack|Spring Attack]]. Pretty much the only maneuvers that can be done with Spring Attack are the ones that have a swift or an immediate action as their initiation action. Mixing maneuvers all depends on what kind of action each requires. In a single round, you can perform one standard action, one move action, and one swift (or immediate) action, or instead of a standard and move action, you can perform a full-round action. So you could use shadow jaunt (standard), shadow stride (move), and shadow blink (swift) all in the same round. If you have the shadow pounce ability, you'll get three full-round attacks in one round.<br />
# As the rules are written, no, but I'd allow an exchange of a move or standard action to perform a swift action (maybe even an immediate action). Especially since the rules allow one to perform another move action in place of a standard action.<br />
# Page 43, "You do not multiply extra damage from a strike with a successful critical hit. You treat it just as you would extra damage from another special ability, such as sneak attack."<br />
# Not entirely sure on this one. As best as I can tell, it follows the normal rules of movement, so yes, you halve the result of the Jump check (round down to the nearest 5-foot increment). At least that's how I'd handle it.<br />
# I can't find anything that makes setting sun maneuvers an exception to that rule. Within the SRD storm giants and cloud giants are the only giants that are larger than Large, so that claim could still hold true with stone giants, ettins, trolls, ogres, etc... Another interpretation is that these are throws not trips, so they're only subject to the limitations of the trip attempt check. However, the [http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4dnd/20080124a FAQ] implies that they are trips, so you get the benefit of Improved Trip with every throw (another +4 and and an extra attack with a successful throw).<br />
#: That sounds about right.<br />
# Then I'd say that's an exception to the "readied only once" rule. Likewise, I'd say a character with levels in two different martial adept classes can have the same maneuver readied for each class.<br />
|- class="even"<br />
| style="border-left: none; border-right: none; border-top: none; font-size: smaller; line-height: 1.5em;" | ''There's no better laugh than the one that you're ashamed to share with your mother.''<div class="right">—Stephen Notley, creator of ''[http://www.angryflower.com/ Bob the Angry Flower]''</div><br />
''A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof was to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.''<div class="right">—Ford Prefect in "Mostly Harmless" by Douglas Adams</div><br />
|}<br />
<br />
=== [[User:Aarnott|Aarnott]]&nbsp;<small><small>10:30, 19 February 2008 (MST)</small></small> ===<br />
<br />
(In regard to 9) - Do you know if a Duskblade's spell channeling is a standard action or a full round action? Because that would be a lot of damage for low levels with a houserule like that Sledged. Blade of Blood, Blade of Blood, Greatsword, Shocking grasp -- 13d6 + 1.5x str damage? I'd also get a spellstoring weapon and store shocking grasp for an extra 5d6 :P. Even at level 1 - Blade of Blood x2 + greatsword = 7d6 damage (though 10 to you will be very poor at this level).<br />
<br />
Note that Quickened spells and powers do not work with this because you can only cast 1 of them a round (until epic feats).<br />
<br />
<h3 style="height: 0px; border-bottom: 1px solid; overflow: hidden; padding-left: 0; padding-bottom: 0; padding-right: 0; margin: 0;">Sledged-20080219115121</h3><br />
{| class="d20" style="padding: 0; margin: 0; text-align: left; width: 100%; border: none;" cellspacing="0"<br />
|- class="even"<br />
| style="font-size: larger; border: none; font-weight: bold;" | [[User:Sledged|Sledged]] <span style="font-weight: normal; font-size: smaller">([[User talk:Sledged|talk]])<br/><span style="font-size: smaller;">2008 February 19 11:51 (MDT)</span></span><br />
|-<br />
| style="border: none;" |<br />
Arcane channeling is a standard action, unless you do it as part of a full-attack action, then it's a [[SRD:Action Types#Not an Action|not an action]].<br />
<br />
Casting ''blade of blood'' twice on the same weapon won't be any different than casting it once. See [[SRD:Casting Spells#Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths|Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths]]. The same goes for multiple ''[[SRD:Shocking Grasp|shocking grasp]]'' effects.<br />
<br />
In one of the various books, I think they updated Quicken Spell so that it's now a swift action.<br />
|- class="even"<br />
| style="border-left: none; border-right: none; border-top: none; font-size: smaller; line-height: 1.5em;" | ''There's no better laugh than the one that you're ashamed to share with your mother.''<div class="right">—Stephen Notley, creator of ''[http://www.angryflower.com/ Bob the Angry Flower]''</div><br />
''A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof was to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.''<div class="right">—Ford Prefect in "Mostly Harmless" by Douglas Adams</div><br />
|}<br />
<br />
<!-- DO NOT REMOVE OR EDIT THIS LINE NOR ANYTHING BELOW IT<br />
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To make a comment, copy the following line and paste it above the "DO NOT REMOVE" line:<br />
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=== ~~~&nbsp;<small><small>~~~~~</small></small> ===<br />
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{{Forumfooter|Discussion}}<br />
__NOTOC__</div>No problemhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Discussion:Tome_of_Battle_Questions_%26_Answers&diff=231794Discussion:Tome of Battle Questions & Answers2008-02-23T10:42:23Z<p>No problem: /* 84.108.164.233&nbsp;<small><small>2008-02-11 15:20</small></small> */</p>
<hr />
<div>== Tome of Battle Questions ==<br />
<br />
=== [[Special:Contributions/84.108.164.233|84.108.164.233]]&nbsp;<small><small>2008-02-11 15:20</small></small> ===<br />
<br />
well, after a suggestion i read about vestiges by Sledged (which was great fun), i read tome of battle as well and i was similarly overjoyed. putting aside my own personal aversion to giving a fighter so many supernatural abilities which mimic spells (i speak of desert wind and shadow hand mostly), i thought the disciplines which gave "regular" extraordinary maneuvers were very much like it "should" be.<br />
<br />
some questions though.<br />
<br />
# what are the skills associated with the disciplines good for? some are useful like concentration and diamond mind and sense motive and setting sun, both of which make extensive use of the skills in many useful maneuvers, but for many of the other disciplines, i did not see any use of the skills associated with them. what did i miss? it cant be that a skill is associated with a discipline has no or very little effect.<br />
# also, something in the skill relating to the discipline seems a little broken. the diamond mind discipline has the 'insightful strike' which substitutes regular damage of an attack with a constitution checks (1d20+ranks+modifier). this seems highly suspect since magic can easily increase the bonus of this check greatly and in fact, such a bonus would be very cheap costwise (bonus squared times 100. for +20 cost would be 4000!). this could easily double the effective bonus for the constitution check and considering it is added to 1d20, well, that makes for a very deadly attack at a very low price. and if you use 'insightful attack, greater', well, the damage is doubled! this means an 11th level swordsage with 14 ranks in concentration and some magic item which gives a, say, +15 to concentration checks (not unreasonable! very reasonable in fact imo), damages (d20+29)x2 using the 'insightful attack, greater' which is a 6th lvl maneuver. this is an average of 80 hit points of damage. granted, the attack must be successful or the maneuver is spent, but this is true for all maneuvers and all who do this kind of damage are of much higher lvl and are not so easily "buffed up" by a cheap magic item.<br />
# i am unsure on whether you can prepare the same maneuver twice.<br />
# can a strike maneuver taking one standard action to initiate be part of a full attack action or can it be followed only by a move action (or preceded by one)?<br />
# is the damage cause by using a maneuver like 'tornado throw' caused by what happens after the throw or before the throw? cause if the subject is capable of flight or if the maneuver is carried out in the astral plane then this maneuver is useless if the damage is caused after the throw.<br />
# what is the 'shadow blink' shadow hand "maneuver"? tome of battle doesnt state. just says "teleportation". is it a maneuver? if so, strike counter or boost? stance?! or other? also, does a stance count as a maneuver for the purposes of determining whether one has, say, three maneuvers of a certain discipline to qualify for a maneuver which has a prerequisite of three maneuvers?<br />
# ok, so there are "other" maneuvers. as for the three shadow hand teleportation maneuvers. are they not supernatural? it does not state it is supernatural and strictly speaking, a maneuver is extraordinary unless stated otherwise. however, teleportation powers are never nonmagical. so which is it?<br />
# can i incorporate a maneuver into a feat or vice versa? like using emerald razor while using the spring attack feat. can i use a counter during a maneuver?<br />
# swift and immediate actions. i get one swift action per round with no cost. what if i want to use another swift action or two? or another immediate action or two? can i "pay" a move action for one or two swift or immediate actions? is there a formal or informal exchange rate? it can be very beneficial to be able to counter more than once. or change stances more than once per round.<br />
# how does 'strike of perfect clarity' interact with critical hits? is the +100 to damage doubled or is it added after you double the regular damage?<br />
# if i am asking too much, do tell. while using 'sudden leap', one incurs AoO unless one succeeds a tumble check. does tumbling while using a sudden leap reduce the distance jumped as tumbling during normal movement does?<br />
# the setting sun throw maneuvers require a (succesful touch attack and a) trip attempt. does this mean these maneuvers cannot be used on larger than large creatures (assuming one is medium sized and according to trip rules)? if so, it is quite restrictive especially for a discipline which boasts dealing well with giants (as in the story of eventide's edge).<br />
#: how does one resolve throwing someone 10 feet or more away and then attacking him? he is out of reach! i suppose you could rule that the subsequent attack is possible only if you throw him where you can reach him with a melee weapon. but would you allow a reach weapon capable of tripping to be used in the throw? what is a throw? is it something you do unarmed (like tripping though there are weapons which can trip)? can you use trip weapons for this attack? reach trip weapons? if unarmed is necessary, is one hand enough? can i hold a weapon (even a reach weapon) in the other hand? <br />
#:: actually, i just read in the discussion thread somewehere that the improved trip feat allows you an attack only if the original action was an attack. since the original action is not an attack but is a throw, or a trip, you get a trip which is irrelevent.<br />
# what about maneuvers and the 'fussion' power? if indeed one can ready a maneuver once only (meaning that maneuvers readied is not like spell slots) then what happens when one uses the 'fussion' power and has the same maneuver readied as the character to be fussioned with?<br />
# how does 'adaptive style' work when u dont have all ur maneuvers ready? say u had 7 and expended 3. can u use adaptive style to trade the 4 u have readied with any other 4? if so, what happens if one of the maneuvers traded is of of the 3 maneuvers i had earlier expended. i cant regain a maneuver i have readied. assuming, of course, that u can indeed ready only one instance at most of each maneuver.<br />
<br />
<h3 style="height: 0px; border-bottom: 1px solid; overflow: hidden; padding-left: 0; padding-bottom: 0; padding-right: 0; margin: 0;">Sledged-20080213120512</h3><br />
{| class="d20" style="padding: 0; margin: 0; text-align: left; width: 100%; border: none;" cellspacing="0"<br />
|- class="even"<br />
| style="font-size: larger; border: none; font-weight: bold;" | [[User:Sledged|Sledged]] <span style="font-weight: normal; font-size: smaller">([[User talk:Sledged|talk]])<br/><span style="font-size: smaller;">2008 February 15 12:05 (MDT)</span></span><br />
|-<br />
| style="border: none;" |<br />
# Mostly for flavor, but as you pointed some maneuvers require skill checks.<br />
# As best as I can tell, ''Tome of Battle'' was meant to narrow the gap between spellcasters and melee types. Your typical cleric makes a better melee type than barbarians, fighters, paladins, and rangers. 60 points of damage with a single attack is not so bad. A 11th-level wizard deals an average of 77 points of damage to a single creature with ''[[SRD:Disintegrate|disintegrate]]'', an average of 38.5 points of damage to up to 12 creatures with ''[[SRD:Chain Lightning|chain lighting]]'', and can effectively kill a single creature using ''[[SRD:Flesh to Stone|flesh to stone]]'' (all 6th-level spells).<br />
# I can't find anything that explicitly says so, but I think each maneuver can be prepared only once. Try contacting WotC help, or ask on the Wizards forums.<br />
# Standard actions (like [[SRD:Manyshot|Manyshot]]) may not be taken as part of any full-round action.<br />
# I believe damage is caused by the landing. This is one of those instances where the DM has to use his/her/its best judgement. In the case of flying creatures, I'd rule it that they still take damage, because the attack is so sudden they're not able to compensate fast enough to avoid the impact. With the astral plane, I'd rule that the target would have to be thrown into an object whose mass is greater than or equal to the target itself in order for damage to be done.<br />
# Shadow blink is an "other" maneuver. If you look at the sample shadow sun ninja on page 130, you'll see he has shadow jaunt, which is listed under "other." Stances are not maneuvers which is why they're always collectively referred to as "stances and maneuvers."<br />
# There's no blanket rule that says teleport abilities are always magic/psionic, even though it seems like there should be. So as they're written, those abilities are extraordinary.<br />
# There's no simple "yes" or "no" to that question. It depends on the feat and the maneuver in question. Concerning [[SRD:Spring Attack|Spring Attack]] and emerald razor, the only move action that can be done with spring attack is [[SRD:Move Actions#Move|move]] and the only standard action that can be done is an [[SRD:Standard Actions#Attack|attack action]] with a melee weapon. Emerald razor is a standard action, but even though you make an attack as part of the maneuver, it is not an attack action, so it can't be performed with [[SRD:Spring Attack|Spring Attack]]. Pretty much the only maneuvers that can be done with Spring Attack are the ones that have a swift or an immediate action as their initiation action. Mixing maneuvers all depends on what kind of action each requires. In a single round, you can perform one standard action, one move action, and one swift (or immediate) action, or instead of a standard and move action, you can perform a full-round action. So you could use shadow jaunt (standard), shadow stride (move), and shadow blink (swift) all in the same round. If you have the shadow pounce ability, you'll get three full-round attacks in one round.<br />
# As the rules are written, no, but I'd allow an exchange of a move or standard action to perform a swift action (maybe even an immediate action). Especially since the rules allow one to perform another move action in place of a standard action.<br />
# Page 43, "You do not multiply extra damage from a strike with a successful critical hit. You treat it just as you would extra damage from another special ability, such as sneak attack."<br />
# Not entirely sure on this one. As best as I can tell, it follows the normal rules of movement, so yes, you halve the result of the Jump check (round down to the nearest 5-foot increment). At least that's how I'd handle it.<br />
# I can't find anything that makes setting sun maneuvers an exception to that rule. Within the SRD storm giants and cloud giants are the only giants that are larger than Large, so that claim could still hold true with stone giants, ettins, trolls, ogres, etc... Another interpretation is that these are throws not trips, so they're only subject to the limitations of the trip attempt check. However, the [http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4dnd/20080124a FAQ] implies that they are trips, so you get the benefit of Improved Trip with every throw (another +4 and and an extra attack with a successful throw).<br />
#: That sounds about right.<br />
# Then I'd say that's an exception to the "readied only once" rule. Likewise, I'd say a character with levels in two different martial adept classes can have the same maneuver readied for each class.<br />
|- class="even"<br />
| style="border-left: none; border-right: none; border-top: none; font-size: smaller; line-height: 1.5em;" | ''There's no better laugh than the one that you're ashamed to share with your mother.''<div class="right">—Stephen Notley, creator of ''[http://www.angryflower.com/ Bob the Angry Flower]''</div><br />
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|}<br />
<br />
=== [[User:Aarnott|Aarnott]]&nbsp;<small><small>10:30, 19 February 2008 (MST)</small></small> ===<br />
<br />
(In regard to 9) - Do you know if a Duskblade's spell channeling is a standard action or a full round action? Because that would be a lot of damage for low levels with a houserule like that Sledged. Blade of Blood, Blade of Blood, Greatsword, Shocking grasp -- 13d6 + 1.5x str damage? I'd also get a spellstoring weapon and store shocking grasp for an extra 5d6 :P. Even at level 1 - Blade of Blood x2 + greatsword = 7d6 damage (though 10 to you will be very poor at this level).<br />
<br />
Note that Quickened spells and powers do not work with this because you can only cast 1 of them a round (until epic feats).<br />
<br />
<h3 style="height: 0px; border-bottom: 1px solid; overflow: hidden; padding-left: 0; padding-bottom: 0; padding-right: 0; margin: 0;">Sledged-20080219115121</h3><br />
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|- class="even"<br />
| style="font-size: larger; border: none; font-weight: bold;" | [[User:Sledged|Sledged]] <span style="font-weight: normal; font-size: smaller">([[User talk:Sledged|talk]])<br/><span style="font-size: smaller;">2008 February 19 11:51 (MDT)</span></span><br />
|-<br />
| style="border: none;" |<br />
Arcane channeling is a standard action, unless you do it as part of a full-attack action, then it's a [[SRD:Action Types#Not an Action|not an action]].<br />
<br />
Casting ''blade of blood'' twice on the same weapon won't be any different than casting it once. See [[SRD:Casting Spells#Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths|Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths]]. The same goes for multiple ''[[SRD:Shocking Grasp|shocking grasp]]'' effects.<br />
<br />
In one of the various books, I think they updated Quicken Spell so that it's now a swift action.<br />
|- class="even"<br />
| style="border-left: none; border-right: none; border-top: none; font-size: smaller; line-height: 1.5em;" | ''There's no better laugh than the one that you're ashamed to share with your mother.''<div class="right">—Stephen Notley, creator of ''[http://www.angryflower.com/ Bob the Angry Flower]''</div><br />
''A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof was to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.''<div class="right">—Ford Prefect in "Mostly Harmless" by Douglas Adams</div><br />
|}<br />
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__NOTOC__</div>No problemhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Discussion:Why_arent_there_%22optimized%22_epic_spells%3F&diff=231787Discussion:Why arent there "optimized" epic spells?2008-02-23T08:17:02Z<p>No problem: /* Why arent there "optimized" epic spells? */</p>
<hr />
<div>== Why arent there "optimized" epic spells? == <br />
<br />
=== [[Special:Contributions/84.108.164.233|84.108.164.233]]&nbsp;<small><small>18:36, 21 February 2008 (MST)</small></small> ===<br />
<br />
i saw some examples of epic spells in the epic handbook and some homebrew epic spells are given. still, one would expect some optimizations like in character builds. how to use a seed (or seeds) to best effects. what combinations work well. alternatives and such. these optimizations should have variable spellcraft rather than fixed ones. i mean, it is only natural since as you progress, your spellcraft check progresses and one would obviously wanna improve earlier epic spells or develope new ones that are on the very cusp of his spellcraft check which make for more powerful spells. as an example, here is my (limited) version of an epic fireball (which is clearly drawn from http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Epic_Fireball_%28DnD_Epic_Spell%29).<br />
<br />
epic fireball<br />
<br />
spellcraft DC: 61+(4 times Y)+(2 times X)+(2 times W)-Z<br />
<br />
evocation[fire]<br />
<br />
components: V,S, XP<br />
<br />
casting time: one standard action<br />
<br />
range: 300 times X feet (X is a variable)<br />
<br />
area: 20 ft times Y radius ball<br />
<br />
duration: instantaneous<br />
<br />
saving throw: reflex half<br />
<br />
spell resistance:yes<br />
<br />
to develope: Seed: Energy (DC 19). Factors: 1-action casting time (+20 DC), Change area from bolt to ball (+2 DC), Increase area by (Y times 100)% (+(4 times Y) DC), Increase range by (X times 100)% (+(2 times X) DC), Increase Damage to (10+W)d6 (+(2 times W) DC), Increase damage dice four steps (+40 DC). Mitigating factors: 20d6 backlash (-20 DC), Burn (Z times 100) XP (-Z DC). <br />
<br />
XP cost: Z times 100 XP<br />
<br />
Epic Fireball is a massive ball of fire that detonates with a mass of flames. It deals (10+W)d20 (which is 105+(10.5 times W) on average) points of fire damage in a (20 times Y) foot radius ball. Unattended objects also take this damage. The spell can barely be controlled and the caster takes 20d6 points of damage as it is released (in addition to burning (Z times 100) XP). <br />
<br />
notes: the reduction in casting time is necessary for it to be useful in ongoing combat. of course, if one feels one will have the minute to cast it effectively, one can forego the +20 added to casting time. <br />
<br />
increasing the damage die by one step adds one effective hp of damage per die except for the last step which adds 4. adding a die adds 3.5 or 4.5 or 5.5 or 6.5 whenever the die is d6,d8,d10,d12 respectively. so there is a question of balance between adding a die of damage and increasing the die of damage by one step. the calculations are straightforward and in the particular case of going for maximum increase in die damage (4 steps) then it is worth it always.<br />
<br />
you can clearly play with other factors to change the spellcraft DC. IMO, this template should be used either against a small number of area concentrated tough enemies (maximize damage and minimize area) or against a large number of not so tough enemies spread along a large area (minimize damage and maximize area). if you want to kill just one superstrong guy, you would use the destroy seed and maximize the damage die to d20 and then maximize the number of damage dies. then again, there are issues of spell resistance...<br />
<br />
this is of course an awkward and unclear way to state things. variables are bad for understanding. still, some attempt should be made.<br />
<br />
<br />
=== [[User:Othtim|Othtim]]&nbsp;<small><small>01:10, 23 February 2008 (MST)</small></small> ===<br />
<br />
I've never really thought about that before. I guess there's no reason that someone couldn't make an optimized epic spell. I've just never thought about it before. I suppose people aren't really interested in doing it? I would think that is a good explanation for most things that don't exist (such as pink cows, people don't want them, so they haven't made them). I dunno. I guess most people make epic spells that would be useful in-game. But yeah, I don't really have a good answer for this question. =/<br />
<br />
=== [[User:No problem|No problem]]&nbsp;<small><small>01:17, 23 February 2008 (MST)</small></small> ===<br />
a shame. seems like ppl could use good ideas for epic spells. useful stuff. i guess epic levels arent really popular and are, at least partially, poorly handled. i hope 4E will handle higher levels better.<br />
<br />
<br />
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__NOTOC__</div>No problemhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Discussion:What_wishes_do_you_allow%3F&diff=231783Discussion:What wishes do you allow?2008-02-23T08:13:11Z<p>No problem: /* What wishes do you allow? */</p>
<hr />
<div>== What wishes do you allow? == <br />
<br />
=== [[User:No problem|No problem]]&nbsp;<small><small>03:44, 22 February 2008 (MST)</small></small> ===<br />
<br />
so what wishes are "legal" in your campaign? and i dont mean the technical narrow interpretation of the exact wording in the description. i mean, what do you allow, or think should be allowed by wish spells (and limited wish).<br />
<br />
=== [[User:Eiji|Eiji]]&nbsp;<small><small>09:37, 22 February 2008 (MST)</small></small> ===<br />
<br />
Hard to say, you can do so much with it, and legality is first and foremost based on what is technically legal. I suppose you mean where do I draw the line... also hard to say since there's so many exceptions but...<br />
<br />
Well, obviously anything in the rules is legal. Outside it varies. If you tried to cast Awaken Construct (9th level and out of Wish's power) but had the material component (a brain) on hand, I'd allow it. Both spells take 5000 XP anyway, so there is practically no difference.<br />
<br />
For 9th level spells but no major abuses, I'd grant the wish and add a minor mishap that won't be traumatizing. Like: "I wish for a Gate spell". Done... if you used it for transport, you can, and there happens to be a battle going on over there at the time and you just jumped into it. Or called a creature, and it's a greedy bastard and wants more payment than what is typical.<br />
<br />
And then for things above it, then you can get fun with it. You want to revive the army of troops that was just wiped out? Sure... they all rise as skeletons and zombies. Whee!<br />
<br />
Unfortunately I can't really get any more specific than that.<br />
<br />
=== [[User:No problem|No problem]]&nbsp;<small><small>17:40, 22 February 2008 (MST)</small></small> ===<br />
while i did mean creative things, i also meant dull enhancement things. like, would you allow a wish to give you skill ranks, say to be used normally. not to exceed maximum ranks. if so, how many ranks? what about feats? how many feats per wish? would you allow epic feats for a wish, say a wish would grant you one epic feat which might seem reasonable since an epic feat can grant you +1 on ability score and a wish can do that as well though the bonuses are different kinds. if you allow regular or epic feats to be wished for, would you limit this number like inherent bonuses to ability scores, meaning, you can use wishes to get more than 5 feats or something like that. in short, ow many skill tanks per wish, how many feat per wish and would you allow a wish to grant you an epic feat if you have the requirement?<br />
<br />
on the "creative" side, would you allow a wish to transfer the properties of one magic item to another. say if i had a +3 longsword and a +2 vorpal shortsword, would you allow a wish to transfer the vorpal quality from shortsword to longswrod?<br />
<br />
plus, of course, amusing stories about wishes would be welcome :)<br />
<br />
=== [[User:Aarnott|Aarnott]]&nbsp;<small><small>17:50, 22 February 2008 (MST)</small></small> ===<br />
<br />
I would allow wishes to give ''temporary skill ranks or temporary feats''. Think of Moment of Prescience (8th level spell, but a good example). You can get +20 to a single skill check. +10 to checks for a minute per level would probably be fair. Temporary feats for a minute per level would also be fine.<br />
<br />
For transferring the property, I'd figure out the cost difference. The +2 sword in your example loses 90k gp in value. The +3 sword gains 110k gp in value. This leaves a 20k difference in gold. Wish can do non-magical items up to 25k gp in value. So this example looks fair.<br />
<br />
=== [[User:No problem|No problem]]&nbsp;<small><small>21:34, 22 February 2008 (MST)</small></small> ===<br />
i meant permanent skill and feat enhancements.<br />
<br />
=== [[User:Aarnott|Aarnott]]&nbsp;<small><small>21:42, 22 February 2008 (MST)</small></small> ===<br />
<br />
Yeah I wouldn't do that. You can have it make items that grant feats or skill bonuses as an alternative. In my opinion though, permanent bonuses should be gained through levels only.<br />
<br />
=== [[User:Eiji|Eiji]]&nbsp;<small><small>00:42, 23 February 2008 (MST)</small></small> ===<br />
<br />
As a rule the only perma-bonus you can get it the inherent +5 maximum to ability scores. <br />
<br />
I once heard of using it to get +5 natural armor in the same way as ability scores but I believe this to be a houserule.<br />
<br />
Wishing for other things tends to range from shaky to dangerous. I may potentially be convinced that you could wish for a single feat that you qualify for, but you're well into DM fiat territory.<br />
<br />
=== [[User:No problem|No problem]]&nbsp;<small><small>01:13, 23 February 2008 (MST)</small></small> ===<br />
<br />
clearly this is DM's world which is why i asked you guys. but why shaky or dangerous? what differentiates +5 to some ability score to getting, say, 5 regular (nonepic) feats for which you qualify? i mean, had i been a DM (i am not) i would allow getting at least five feats in the same manner as getting inherent bonuses using 5 consecutive wish spells for example. why not? aside from the fact that the rules do not specifically address it. same for skill ranks. why not give the character some ranks? give me a game oriented reason. how does it damage the game? i mean, paying 5000 XP several times over is equivalent to giving up a level. and this goes on. and what about other things? can i wish for darkvision? low light vision? scent? blindsight? stuff like that. permanent.<br />
<br />
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__NOTOC__</div>No problemhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Discussion:What_wishes_do_you_allow%3F&diff=231666Discussion:What wishes do you allow?2008-02-23T04:34:02Z<p>No problem: /* What wishes do you allow? */</p>
<hr />
<div>== What wishes do you allow? == <br />
<br />
=== [[User:No problem|No problem]]&nbsp;<small><small>03:44, 22 February 2008 (MST)</small></small> ===<br />
<br />
so what wishes are "legal" in your campaign? and i dont mean the technical narrow interpretation of the exact wording in the description. i mean, what do you allow, or think should be allowed by wish spells (and limited wish).<br />
<br />
=== [[User:Eiji|Eiji]]&nbsp;<small><small>09:37, 22 February 2008 (MST)</small></small> ===<br />
<br />
Hard to say, you can do so much with it, and legality is first and foremost based on what is technically legal. I suppose you mean where do I draw the line... also hard to say since there's so many exceptions but...<br />
<br />
Well, obviously anything in the rules is legal. Outside it varies. If you tried to cast Awaken Construct (9th level and out of Wish's power) but had the material component (a brain) on hand, I'd allow it. Both spells take 5000 XP anyway, so there is practically no difference.<br />
<br />
For 9th level spells but no major abuses, I'd grant the wish and add a minor mishap that won't be traumatizing. Like: "I wish for a Gate spell". Done... if you used it for transport, you can, and there happens to be a battle going on over there at the time and you just jumped into it. Or called a creature, and it's a greedy bastard and wants more payment than what is typical.<br />
<br />
And then for things above it, then you can get fun with it. You want to revive the army of troops that was just wiped out? Sure... they all rise as skeletons and zombies. Whee!<br />
<br />
Unfortunately I can't really get any more specific than that.<br />
<br />
=== [[User:No problem|No problem]]&nbsp;<small><small>17:40, 22 February 2008 (MST)</small></small> ===<br />
while i did mean creative things, i also meant dull enhancement things. like, would you allow a wish to give you skill ranks, say to be used normally. not to exceed maximum ranks. if so, how many ranks? what about feats? how many feats per wish? would you allow epic feats for a wish, say a wish would grant you one epic feat which might seem reasonable since an epic feat can grant you +1 on ability score and a wish can do that as well though the bonuses are different kinds. if you allow regular or epic feats to be wished for, would you limit this number like inherent bonuses to ability scores, meaning, you can use wishes to get more than 5 feats or something like that. in short, ow many skill tanks per wish, how many feat per wish and would you allow a wish to grant you an epic feat if you have the requirement?<br />
<br />
on the "creative" side, would you allow a wish to transfer the properties of one magic item to another. say if i had a +3 longsword and a +2 vorpal shortsword, would you allow a wish to transfer the vorpal quality from shortsword to longswrod?<br />
<br />
plus, of course, amusing stories about wishes would be welcome :)<br />
<br />
=== [[User:Aarnott|Aarnott]]&nbsp;<small><small>17:50, 22 February 2008 (MST)</small></small> ===<br />
<br />
I would allow wishes to give ''temporary skill ranks or temporary feats''. Think of Moment of Prescience (8th level spell, but a good example). You can get +20 to a single skill check. +10 to checks for a minute per level would probably be fair. Temporary feats for a minute per level would also be fine.<br />
<br />
For transferring the property, I'd figure out the cost difference. The +2 sword in your example loses 90k gp in value. The +3 sword gains 110k gp in value. This leaves a 20k difference in gold. Wish can do non-magical items up to 25k gp in value. So this example looks fair.<br />
<br />
=== [[User:No problem|No problem]]&nbsp;<small><small>21:34, 22 February 2008 (MST)</small></small> ===<br />
i meant permanent skill and feat enhancements.<br />
<br />
<br />
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__NOTOC__</div>No problemhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Discussion:What_wishes_do_you_allow%3F&diff=231609Discussion:What wishes do you allow?2008-02-23T00:49:44Z<p>No problem: /* No problem&nbsp;<small><small>17:40, 22 February 2008 (MST)</small></small> */</p>
<hr />
<div>== What wishes do you allow? == <br />
<br />
=== [[User:No problem|No problem]]&nbsp;<small><small>03:44, 22 February 2008 (MST)</small></small> ===<br />
<br />
so what wishes are "legal" in your campaign? and i dont mean the technical narrow interpretation of the exact wording in the description. i mean, what do you allow, or think should be allowed by wish spells (and limited wish).<br />
<br />
=== [[User:Eiji|Eiji]]&nbsp;<small><small>09:37, 22 February 2008 (MST)</small></small> ===<br />
<br />
Hard to say, you can do so much with it, and legality is first and foremost based on what is technically legal. I suppose you mean where do I draw the line... also hard to say since there's so many exceptions but...<br />
<br />
Well, obviously anything in the rules is legal. Outside it varies. If you tried to cast Awaken Construct (9th level and out of Wish's power) but had the material component (a brain) on hand, I'd allow it. Both spells take 5000 XP anyway, so there is practically no difference.<br />
<br />
For 9th level spells but no major abuses, I'd grant the wish and add a minor mishap that won't be traumatizing. Like: "I wish for a Gate spell". Done... if you used it for transport, you can, and there happens to be a battle going on over there at the time and you just jumped into it. Or called a creature, and it's a greedy bastard and wants more payment than what is typical.<br />
<br />
And then for things above it, then you can get fun with it. You want to revive the army of troops that was just wiped out? Sure... they all rise as skeletons and zombies. Whee!<br />
<br />
Unfortunately I can't really get any more specific than that.<br />
<br />
=== [[User:No problem|No problem]]&nbsp;<small><small>17:40, 22 February 2008 (MST)</small></small> ===<br />
while i did mean creative things, i also meant dull enhancement things. like, would you allow a wish to give you skill ranks, say to be used normally. not to exceed maximum ranks. if so, how many ranks? what about feats? how many feats per wish? would you allow epic feats for a wish, say a wish would grant you one epic feat which might seem reasonable since an epic feat can grant you +1 on ability score and a wish can do that as well though the bonuses are different kinds. if you allow regular or epic feats to be wished for, would you limit this number like inherent bonuses to ability scores, meaning, you can use wishes to get more than 5 feats or something like that. in short, ow many skill tanks per wish, how many feat per wish and would you allow a wish to grant you an epic feat if you have the requirement?<br />
<br />
on the "creative" side, would you allow a wish to transfer the properties of one magic item to another. say if i had a +3 longsword and a +2 vorpal shortsword, would you allow a wish to transfer the vorpal quality from shortsword to longswrod?<br />
<br />
plus, of course, amusing stories about wishes would be welcome :)<br />
<br />
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__NOTOC__</div>No problem