https://www.dandwiki.com/w/api.php?action=feedcontributions&user=Genowhirl&feedformat=atomD&D Wiki - User contributions [en]2024-03-28T21:26:17ZUser contributionsMediaWiki 1.35.8https://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Celestial_Beacon_(3.5e_Prestige_Class)&diff=575796Celestial Beacon (3.5e Prestige Class)2012-05-30T04:51:09Z<p>Genowhirl: Undo revision 575792 by 173.245.52.115 (talk) undo random name change.</p>
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<div>{{DnD Prestige Class Infobox<br />
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|status=Complete<br />
|editing=Spelling and grammar only<br />
|type=Good Guy, Strong Spellcasting, Combat Focused<br />
|desc=A beacon of light that shines even in the evil of the lower planes.<br />
|len=10<br />
|minlvl=7<br />
}}<br />
<br />
==Celestial Beacon==<br />
<br />
The Lower Planes are realms of evil of such magnitude that the good are oppressed in such a place. Those whose goodness is so strong that it radiates from them are beacons to the denizens of these realms, and some have learned to harness this light to burn away the unclean presence of the fiends. <br />
<br />
===Becoming a Celestial Beacon===<br />
<br />
{| class="d20 dragon monstats" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"<br />
|+ style="font-size: larger; white-space: nowrap;" | Entry Requirements<br />
|-<br />
! Base Attack Bonus:<br />
| +5.<br />
|-<br />
! Skills:<br />
| Knowledge (Planes) 4 ranks, Knowledge(Religion) 8 ranks.<br />
|-<br />
! Special:<br />
| Must radiate moderate good.<br />
|-<br />
! Special:<br />
| Must be proficient in heavy armor.<br />
|} <br />
<br />
{| class="{{d20}}"<br />
|+ <div>{{#anc:Table: The Celestial Beacon}}</div><br />
<p>Hit Die: d8</p><br />
|-<br />
! rowspan="2" | Level<br />
! rowspan="2" | [[BAB|Base<br/>Attack Bonus]]<br />
! colspan="3" | [[SRD:Saving Throw|Saving Throw]]s<br />
! rowspan="2" | Special<br />
! rowspan="2" | [[#Spellcasting|Spellcasting]]<br />
|-<br />
! [[SRD:Saving Throw#Fortitude|Fort]] || [[SRD:Saving Throw#Reflex|Ref]] || [[SRD:Saving Throw#Will|Will]]<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
| 1st || +1 || +2 || +0 || +2<br />
| class="left" | [[#Aura of Good|Aura of Good]], [[#Smite Evil|Smite Evil]]<br />
| class="left" | +1 Spellcaster Level<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
| 2nd || +2 || +3 || +0 || +3<br />
| class="left" | [[#Halo of the Righteous|Halo of the Righteous]]<br />
| class="left" | +1 Spellcaster Level<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
| 3rd || +3 || +3 || +1 || +3<br />
| class="left" | [[#Arms of the Holy|Arm of the Holy]]<br />
| class="left" | +1 Spellcaster Level<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
| 4th || +4 || +4 || +1 || +4<br />
| class="left" | [[#Armament of the Holy|Armament of the Holy]]<br />
| class="left" | +1 Spellcaster Level<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
| 5th || +5 || +4 || +1 || +4<br />
| class="left" | [[#Death Ward|Death Ward]]<br />
| class="left" | +1 Spellcaster Level<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
| 6th || +6 || +5 || +2 || +5<br />
| class="left" | [[#Flare of Goodness|Flare of Goodness]]<br />
| class="left" | +1 Spellcaster Level<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
| 7th || +7 || +5 || +2 || +5<br />
| class="left" | [[#Light of Peace|Light of Peace]]<br />
| class="left" | +1 Spellcaster Level<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
| 8th || +8 || +6 || +2 || +6<br />
| class="left" | [[#Holyfire Shield|Holyfire Shield]]<br />
| class="left" | +1 Spellcaster Level<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
| 9th || +9 || +6 || +3 || +6<br />
| class="left" | [[#Celestial Aspect|Celestial Aspect]]<br />
| class="left" | +1 Spellcaster Level<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
| 10th || +10 || +7 || +3 || +7<br />
| class="left" | [[#Ward Against Evil Magic|Ward Again Evil Magic]]<br />
| class="left" | +1 Spellcaster Level<br />
|}<br />
'''Class Skills (2 + [[Int]] modifier per level)'''<br/><br />
Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Intimidate(Cha), Heal(Wis), Knowledge (Religion) (Int), Profession (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int).<br />
<br />
====Class Features====<br />
<br />
'''Weapon and Armor Proficiency:''' Celestial Beacons gain no proficiency with any weapon or armor, but do gain proficiency in the Tower Shield.<br />
<br />
'''Aura of Good (Ex):''' The power of a Celestial Beacon’s aura of good (see the ''[[SRD:Detect Good|detect good]]'' spell) is equal to her Celestial Beacon level. This stacks with any other Aura of Good ability gained from other sources.<br />
<br />
'''Smite Evil (Su):''' As a free action, a Celestial Beacon may attempt to smite evil with one normal melee attack. She adds her Charisma bonus (if any) to her attack roll and deals 1 extra point of damage per Celestial Beacon level. If the Celestial Beacon accidentally smites a creature that is not evil, the smite has no effect, but a use of the ability is expended for that day. The Celestial Beacon may use this ability once for every level of Celestial Beacon, and uses per day and bonuses of this effect stacks with any Smite Evil gained from other classes.<br />
<br />
'''Halo of the Righteous (Su):''' At 2nd level, the Celestial Beacon emanates a ''[[SRD:Magic Circle against Evil|magic circle against evil]]'' effect, as the spell.<br />
<br />
'''Arms of the Holy:''' At 3rd level, any melee attack performed by a celestial beacon counts as good-aligned for the purposes by bypassing damage reduction.<br />
<br />
'''Armament of the Holy (Su):''' At 4th level, any armor worn by the Celestial Beacon takes on a silvery or golden shine, and it is one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations. Heavy armors are treated as medium, and medium armors are treated as light, but light armors are still treated as light. Spell failure chances for armors and shields worn by a Celestial Beacon are decreased by 10%, maximum Dexterity bonus is increased by 2, and armor check penalties are lessened by 3 (to a minimum of 0).<br />
<br />
The Celestial Beacon gains DR 5/evil<br />
<br />
'''Death Ward(Su):''' At 5th level, the Celestial Beacon is continuously under the effects of a ''[[SRD:Death Ward|death ward]]'', as the spell. The irises of his eyes become gold or silver.<br />
<br />
'''Flare of Goodness (Su):''' At 6th level, the Celestial Beacon may perform a Flare of Goodness as an immediate action. This has the effects of a ''[[SRD:Sunburst|sunburst]]'' spell, and any evil magic in the radius is automatically dispelled. After using this ability, all class features gained from Celestial Beacon levels cease functioning for 1d4+1 rounds.<br />
<br />
'''Light of Peace:''' Upon reaching 7th level, the Celestial Beacon is continuously under the effects of a ''[[SRD:Sanctuary|sanctuary]]'' spell. If the Celestial Beacon attacks during a round, this effect ends for 1d4 rounds, then renews itself. The Celestial Beacons also gains the ability to shine as brightly as a torch. He may suppress or renew this ability as a swift action.<br />
<br />
'''Holyfire Shield (Sp):''' As a swift action, an 8th level Celestial Beacon can cast use a spell-like ability called ''holyfire shield'' at will. This effect is like a golden-colored ''[[SRD:Fire Shield|fire shield]]'', but the damage it inflicts is holy damage and it grants immunity to unholy damage.<br />
<br />
'''Celestial Aspect (Ex):''' At 9th level, the Celestial Beacon becomes an [[SRD:Outsider Type|Outsider]], and gains a +2 to Str, +2 to Wis, and +2 to Cha. He may be restored to life according to his previous type.<br />
<br />
'''Ward Against Evil Magic:''' At 10th level, the Celestial Beacon gains SR of 15 + character level, but only against [[evil]] spells and spell-like abilities and the spells and spell-like abilities cast by evil-aligned creatures.<br />
<br />
===External Links===<br />
<br />
[http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=28828 Tome of Fiends (source)]<br />
<br />
<br />
----<br />
{{DnD Prestige Classes Breadcrumb}}<br/><br />
{{3.5e Tome of Fiends Breadcrumb}} &rarr; [[Tome of Fiends (3.5e Sourcebook)/Fiends with Class|Fiends with Class]]<br />
[[Category:DnD]]<br />
[[Category:3.5e]]<br />
[[Category:User]]<br />
[[Category:Tome]]<br />
[[Category:Class]]<br />
[[Category:Prestige Class]]<br />
[[Category:Good Guy]]<br />
[[Category:Combat-Focused]]<br />
[[Category:Strong Spellcasting]]<br />
[[Category:Tome of Fiends Sourcebook]]</div>Genowhirlhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Tome_of_Necromancy_(3.5e_Sourcebook)&diff=563769Talk:Tome of Necromancy (3.5e Sourcebook)2012-05-15T03:24:55Z<p>Genowhirl: </p>
<hr />
<div>{{Featured Article Nominee}}<br />
== Dispute ==<br />
"The fact that undead don't have a Constitution score means that Ghouls can run for exactly zero rounds before they have to make a Con check (that they automatically fail) to continue (and also says it can "run on indefinitely", a base contradiction that makes us sad)."<br />
<br />
The above statement needs to be removed. Undead don't need to make endurance checks, this is precisely why they don't have a constitution score.--[[User:Oddplume|Oddplume]] 11:41, 14 February 2009 (MST)<br />
<br />
:If you want to make a statement like that, you're going to have to back it up with rules quotes. There's other problems, though, like in a chase when you're supposed to make opposed Constitution checks to see if you can keep pace / overcome the person you're chasing. Undead automatically fail that. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 13:49, 15 February 2009 (MST)<br />
<br />
::Ok slick, 3.5 Monster Manual Page 317 under the Undead type listing in the Glossary: "-Immune to any effects that require a fortitude save. (Unless they effect objects or are harmless.)" Same page not too far above that: "-Not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability drain, or energy drain. Immune to damage to its physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, Constitution), as well as fatigue and exhaustion effects." Basically the player will get tired first because a Ghast will automatically succeed those saves, not fail them. This is what Immunity is. Now if you're talking about creatures of the same speed moving in close competition, those are '''Dexterity''' checks not constitution (Dungeon Master's Guide page 20).--[[User:Oddplume|Oddplume]] 20:29, 24 February 2009 (MST)<br />
<br />
:::http://www.d20srd.org/srd/movement.htm<br />
:::"In the case of a long chase, an opposed Constitution check made by all parties determines which can keep pace the longest." [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 09:14, 25 February 2009 (MST)<br />
<br />
::::(Same link you posted) "Run A '''character''' can’t run for an extended period of time.<br />
::::Attempts to run and rest in cycles effectively work out to a hustle."<br />
::::Guess what? When the characters stop to take a rest they will be caught. The damned things will be running full speed the entire way with no breaks in between (Which is what Run on indefinitely means). That rule you listed means nothing to undead. It's difficult to outlast something that doesn't have to rest. At this point it would just be DM choice whether or not to make ghasts, ghouls, or whatever quicker undead they have out give up and go home or not. For the "Evasion and Pursuit" rules to come into play the players would have to have a pretty big head start. If not, it'll pretty much end at "overland Movement" rules where it's pretty much good game the instant the living person misses a Constitution check (Whether it became too high or they rolled abysmally low)--[[User:Oddplume|Oddplume]] 09:20, 28 February 2009 (MST)<br />
<br />
:::::How does it mean nothing to undead? I don't see anything that excludes them from that constitution check, which they will fail automatically.<br />
:::::Also, I went and checked out the undead template and the page about movement again. There's nothing on the page about movement about fatigue and exhaustion effects, or fortitude saves, except for forced march. Everything else is constitution checks (which undead automatically fail). [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 10:36, 28 February 2009 (MST)<br />
<br />
Why do I have to define "Immunity" for you? (P 310 Monster Manual, under Immunity)- "Immunity: A creature that has immunity to an effect is never harmed (or helped) by that effect. A creature can not suppress immunity in order to receive a beneficial effect." Immunity means they '''ignore''' checks for things they are immune to not fail them. (P 312 Monster Manual under nonabilities in ''Constitution'')- "...and automatically fails constitution checks. A creature with no constitution score can not tire and can run indefinitely without tiring. (Unless the creature's description says it can not run.)" Every constitution check related to running involves whether or not the runner gets '''tired''' (except for the close paced dex checks), this is why they make constitution checks. Undead don't tire (As noted repeatedly) thus they ignore the checks.<br />
<br />
You've taken the "Stuff with no Con score automatically fails Constitution Checks" too far out of context and ignored the last sentence in that section entirely. They explain that little contradiction and exactly why it works. Read over "Run" (P144 Players Guide) and note that while characters rest as a result of failing that check, undead (And constructs or anything else without a con score) do not (Again they don't have to).--[[User:Oddplume|Oddplume]] 04:36, 1 March 2009 (MST)<br />
<br />
== Comment ==<br />
<br />
Just so you know, I love this. Necromancy with flavour! ''':D''' I might be building a character using some of this. ''':D''' ''':D''' --[[User:Othtim|Othtim]] 13:24, 2 May 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:I wish I could claim credit for creating this. I'm just the messenger who posted it. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 21:41, 3 May 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
i think the Soul Merchant is the coolest of all. hope it dont matter if i'm creating a NPC class using some of his abilities? [[User:Hijax|Hijax]] 02:09, 6 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::Go right ahead. I'd like to see it, myself. [[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 21:16, 6 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== Editing + Locking ==<br />
<br />
An IP edited the page, are you ok with this and would it be better if these pages were locked? --[[User:Sabre070|Sabre070]] 19:31, 8 November 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
:They actually added something I've been meaning to add for a while. It's cool if they stay unlocked; there's still better formatting work to be done. {{Unsigned|Surgo|22:51, 8 November 2008 (MDT)}}<br />
<br />
::Uh, yeah, I'm the phantom IP editor. I downloaded the Tome pdf from your Wiki user profile, and noticed the Dungeonomicon Reaper was absent, and figured I'd add it to here (although I did think about putting it in the Dungeonomicon itself). Sorry if I raised any alarm bells.[[User:74.182.83.96|74.182.83.96]] 13:43, 9 November 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
== The Economic Necromancer ==<br />
<br />
One of my gaming groups had the classic debate on whether necromancy is always evil or not and we came up with quite an interesting idea:<br />
A village lives with a necromancer (or group of necromancers) who use their undead creations to give the townsfolk a life of luxury, letting all the undead do all the work, all that's required is that the townsfolk give up at least two years of their death to serve the village as an undead (like some sort of military) after which served, the undead would be released. Though, should the town need extra protection, the graves would supply "draftees." Criminals would serve longer terms, but it would still be limited to about a century maximum.<br />
The zombies would mostly be working the fields, as their rotting flesh (if tended to properly with the right spells, maybe casting purify food and water on the crops/meals) would act as fertilizer for the plants. Shadows would be basic guards, alerting the townsfolk when some evil has been done or if travelers are passing through the town, in which case, the workers would have to be hidden and replaced with the townsfolk. For this reason, the town would have to be out of the way. Besides adventurers the town would have nothing to worry about, unless one of the controllers decided to take over, but simple and regular morality tests (detect alignment) could prevent that for the most part.<br />
This set up would not only be ideal for the villagers, but it would also cost a lot less than making a ton of constructs. Another point, since the undead would only be used for basic labor, only a few minor types of undead are needed (ex: skeletons, zombies, shadows) so if you have a few high level necromancers and/or a few helpful necromatic items you'd be able to keep the town in reasonably good shape.<br />
<br />
:Considering that all mentioned undead (skeletons, zombies, and shadows) are by their very nature evil, should be enough for the common townspeople to get wiggy and even terrified of, regardless of how easy it made their lives. Aside from the fact that animated dead are not the same person, but a shell of animated flesh and bone. most peopel would frown on desecration of their dead loved ones for any reason, unless they too were devoid of emotions like a Necro almost always has to be to defy public opinion, and common law. -- A Concerned Citizen--<br />
<br />
::Check the morality section in this sourcebook. Short summary: '''Option 1:''' Negative Energy and, by extension, Necromancy is Evil (TM). '''Option 2:''' Negative energy is like cold. Or fire. Or acid. It's dangerous if uncontrolled, but has its uses and isn't really that different from any other force; it'd likely mean that zombies or skeletons would have the alignment of those who command them. Also, if it's bona-fide known that a skeleton is just a shell, a physical remains, it isn't exactly desecrating that person, is it? I mean, that person is gone. All that's left is...carbon. Calcium. Some phosphorus. Etc. There's no super-compelling reason why Necromancy ''has'' to be always treated Evil (TM), given that the rationale usually is based on "Because", when you get down to it. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] ([[User talk:Genowhirl|talk]]) 21:24, 14 May 2012 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:It made me grin. That scheme reminds me of an idea for a world-spanning civilization based on the idea that a Decanter of Endless Water is, essentially, a perpetual motion device. It can continue to put out a good amount of water, ensuring a public water system assuming someone invents the aquaduct, and at amazing pressure, meaning that waterwheels will wear out before the Decanter does. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 02:03, 20 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::Pet peeve, but that's really not true perpetual motion. It's just draining from something that has infinite pressure. Yeah it's splitting hairs, but whatever. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 02:13, 20 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::I couldn't think of the right term for it. Now that'll be bothering me... --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 02:33, 20 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
Besides simply economic, I would argue that a Necromancer need not be evil inherently. I ran a Dread Necromancer during my last session, who's backstory made him very neutral, and even good at times. The concept was that he was a Necromancer who rose the undead due to a different interpretation of religious belief. It started with the dead of a loved one, he wished to bring them back, and became a necromancer through that. Later, he justified the raising of the dead as a way to keep spirits away from Nerull and an afterlife he believed to be dark and despairing. Also, he would use his necromancy as a support role, reviving fallen teammates, and using spells to boost an undead ally.<br />
<br />
== Featured Article Nomination ==<br />
<br />
I think this article is a work of art. It fixs many problems with Necromancy.--[[User:Milo v3|Milo High-Hill]] 22:32, 14 January 2011 (MST)<br />
<br />
'''Oppose:''' A lot of the pages have problems. Once they are resolved, it will have my support. For example, see [[Tome of Necromancy (3.5e Sourcebook)/The Necronomicon]]. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 17:42, 1 February 2011 (MST)</div>Genowhirlhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Ranger,_RoW_Variant_(3.5e_Class)&diff=563161Talk:Ranger, RoW Variant (3.5e Class)2012-05-09T02:19:04Z<p>Genowhirl: </p>
<hr />
<div>==Ranger in Tome==<br />
This is something that's come up a lot--no Ranger class in Tome. It's actually hard to say what a Ranger ''is'' without the answer containing "A Fighter out in the woods". I mean, take a couple of the archery feats, Handle Animal, and Survival, and some Hide/Move Silently and that's a ranger, isn't it? If we go by source material (Lord of the Rings, off the top of my head), rangers stake out a turf and defend it against incursion and threats against the people in it (R.A. Salvatore also had Drizzt doing this at first--as well as the Rangers from his Demon Wars series, but people--even him--generally only know about rangers because Aragorn was cool and the idea of them taking out threats the normal people never knew about is pretty compelling). But abilities centered being the protector of the tri-county area don't always--or even usually--lend themselves to a D&D campaign, where the players are essentially vagabonds traveling constantly. And that's even before you get into planar travel. <br />
<br />
So you're undertaking a heck of a job to try to come up with something that works and has enough differences from the Fighter to stand on its own. I wish you luck and patience. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] ([[User talk:Genowhirl|talk]]) 20:57, 7 May 2012 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:Thanks for the support. I already realized this is going to be infuriating since the ranger never stood on its own very well from the beginning but I know enough people that like them that I actually need to develop one. I just hope it doesn't take much longer than my estimated timeline of three weeks. [[User:Tivanir|Tivanir]] ([[User talk:Tivanir|talk]]) 07:24, 8 May 2012 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::I'd work the "Wily terrain-setter" thing myself, possibly with some poison or something. The Tome Assassin has a couple of powers you could port in directly:<br />
<br />
'''Poisonmaster (Ex):''' At 11th level, the Assassin learns alchemic secrets for creating short-term poisons. By expending an entire healer’s kit worth of materials and an hour of time, he can synthesize one dose of any poison in the DMG. This poison degrades to uselessness in one week. <br />
<br />
'''Trapmaking (Ex):''' At 5th level, the Assassin learns to build simple mechanical traps in out of common materials. As long as has access to ropes, flexible material like green wood, and weapon-grade materials like sharpened wooden sticks or steel weapons, he can build an improvised trap in 10 minutes. He can build any non-magical trap on the “CR 1” trap list that doesn’t involve a pit. These traps have a Search DC equal to 20 + the Assassin’s level, have a BAB equal to his own, and are always single-use traps. He may add poison to these traps, if he has access to it, but it will dry out in an hour. <br />
<br />
::Slap in an animal companion/spirit guide/whatever, some supernatural-based Animal Empathy/Talk to animals type things (with the highest level being, say, the multispecies stampede from Ace Ventura 2), and then throw in the allowance of both combat AND skill feats and you'd have something pretty ranger-y. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] ([[User talk:Genowhirl|talk]]) 11:58, 8 May 2012 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::Those are pretty cool and gives me an idea. I will probably put those on with the spin that they have to use or make natural poisons (like scorpion venom etc.) and gives me a few more things I can do with later levels when I reshuffle abilities. [[User:Tivanir|Tivanir]] ([[User talk:Tivanir|talk]]) 12:45, 8 May 2012 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::Alright I have changed and added a ton of stuff. Hell I think I may have overpowered it quite a bit and I may need to tone it back a bit. [[User:Tivanir|Tivanir]] ([[User talk:Tivanir|talk]]) 16:35, 8 May 2012 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::::Sometime in the next day or two I'll give it a look over and see if anything glaring pops out at me. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] ([[User talk:Genowhirl|talk]]) 20:19, 8 May 2012 (MDT)</div>Genowhirlhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Ranger,_RoW_Variant_(3.5e_Class)&diff=563113Talk:Ranger, RoW Variant (3.5e Class)2012-05-08T17:58:22Z<p>Genowhirl: </p>
<hr />
<div>==Ranger in Tome==<br />
This is something that's come up a lot--no Ranger class in Tome. It's actually hard to say what a Ranger ''is'' without the answer containing "A Fighter out in the woods". I mean, take a couple of the archery feats, Handle Animal, and Survival, and some Hide/Move Silently and that's a ranger, isn't it? If we go by source material (Lord of the Rings, off the top of my head), rangers stake out a turf and defend it against incursion and threats against the people in it (R.A. Salvatore also had Drizzt doing this at first--as well as the Rangers from his Demon Wars series, but people--even him--generally only know about rangers because Aragorn was cool and the idea of them taking out threats the normal people never knew about is pretty compelling). But abilities centered being the protector of the tri-county area don't always--or even usually--lend themselves to a D&D campaign, where the players are essentially vagabonds traveling constantly. And that's even before you get into planar travel. <br />
<br />
So you're undertaking a heck of a job to try to come up with something that works and has enough differences from the Fighter to stand on its own. I wish you luck and patience. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] ([[User talk:Genowhirl|talk]]) 20:57, 7 May 2012 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:Thanks for the support. I already realized this is going to be infuriating since the ranger never stood on its own very well from the beginning but I know enough people that like them that I actually need to develop one. I just hope it doesn't take much longer than my estimated timeline of three weeks. [[User:Tivanir|Tivanir]] ([[User talk:Tivanir|talk]]) 07:24, 8 May 2012 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::I'd work the "Wily terrain-setter" thing myself, possibly with some poison or something. The Tome Assassin has a couple of powers you could port in directly:<br />
<br />
'''Poisonmaster (Ex):''' At 11th level, the Assassin learns alchemic secrets for creating short-term poisons. By expending an entire healer’s kit worth of materials and an hour of time, he can synthesize one dose of any poison in the DMG. This poison degrades to uselessness in one week. <br />
<br />
'''Trapmaking (Ex):''' At 5th level, the Assassin learns to build simple mechanical traps in out of common materials. As long as has access to ropes, flexible material like green wood, and weapon-grade materials like sharpened wooden sticks or steel weapons, he can build an improvised trap in 10 minutes. He can build any non-magical trap on the “CR 1” trap list that doesn’t involve a pit. These traps have a Search DC equal to 20 + the Assassin’s level, have a BAB equal to his own, and are always single-use traps. He may add poison to these traps, if he has access to it, but it will dry out in an hour. <br />
<br />
::Slap in an animal companion/spirit guide/whatever, some supernatural-based Animal Empathy/Talk to animals type things (with the highest level being, say, the multispecies stampede from Ace Ventura 2), and then throw in the allowance of both combat AND skill feats and you'd have something pretty ranger-y. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] ([[User talk:Genowhirl|talk]]) 11:58, 8 May 2012 (MDT)</div>Genowhirlhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Ranger,_RoW_Variant_(3.5e_Class)&diff=563004Talk:Ranger, RoW Variant (3.5e Class)2012-05-08T02:57:05Z<p>Genowhirl: Created page with "==Ranger in Tome== This is something that's come up a lot--no Ranger class in Tome. It's actually hard to say what a Ranger ''is'' without the answer containing "A Fighter out..."</p>
<hr />
<div>==Ranger in Tome==<br />
This is something that's come up a lot--no Ranger class in Tome. It's actually hard to say what a Ranger ''is'' without the answer containing "A Fighter out in the woods". I mean, take a couple of the archery feats, Handle Animal, and Survival, and some Hide/Move Silently and that's a ranger, isn't it? If we go by source material (Lord of the Rings, off the top of my head), rangers stake out a turf and defend it against incursion and threats against the people in it (R.A. Salvatore also had Drizzt doing this at first--as well as the Rangers from his Demon Wars series, but people--even him--generally only know about rangers because Aragorn was cool and the idea of them taking out threats the normal people never knew about is pretty compelling). But abilities centered being the protector of the tri-county area don't always--or even usually--lend themselves to a D&D campaign, where the players are essentially vagabonds traveling constantly. And that's even before you get into planar travel. <br />
<br />
So you're undertaking a heck of a job to try to come up with something that works and has enough differences from the Fighter to stand on its own. I wish you luck and patience. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] ([[User talk:Genowhirl|talk]]) 20:57, 7 May 2012 (MDT)</div>Genowhirlhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Falcon_Punch_(3.5e_Feat)&diff=558466Falcon Punch (3.5e Feat)2012-04-06T06:04:04Z<p>Genowhirl: remove delete (and offending content).</p>
<hr />
<div><br />
<div class="supplement"><br />
{{April_Fools}}<br />
{{3.5e Feat<br />
|name=Falcon Punch<br />
|types=General<br />
|summary=Your character can hit people with amazing force. The punch creates a field of flame around your fist that is shaped like a falcon. Your fist is protected from this flame but it is harmful to others around you.<br />
|prereqs=[[SRD:Improved Unarmed Strike|Improved Unarmed Strike]], [[SRD:Weapon Focus|Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)]], [[SRD:Power Attack|Power Attack]], ability to speak Common<br />
|benefit=You can perform Falcon Punches.<br><br />
A Falcon Punch is a full-round action that provokes an attack of opportunity. You start by focusing power in your fist as you say "Falcon..." Then you punch forward with all your might as you yell "PAAAWNCH". The yelling is essential and you cannot perform a Falcon Punch if you are voiceless (for instance, under the influence of a Silence spell). It is always spoken in Common so you must know Common.<br />
If you take damage from enemy attacks of opportunity while trying to do a Falcon Punch, you must make a DC 10 + X Concentration check (where X is equal to the total damage you took from these attacks) or the Falcon Punch is lost and you will have wasted your turn.<br><br />
The Falcon Punch has the following effects:<br><br />
# It is treated as a usual unarmed strike, but it deals lethal damage instead of nonlethal damage.<br><br />
# Your target takes an additional 10d6 points of Force damage and 5d6 points of Fire damage. Your target only takes the Force damage if you succeeded on the attack roll, but always takes the Fire damage as long as your Falcon Punch wasn't interrupted by attacks of opportunity or similar effects.<br><br />
# Anything and anyone that is adjacent to both you AND your target also takes the Fire damage (the same amount as was rolled for the target), regardless of whether you succeeded on the attack roll.<br><br />
# Your target is knocked backwards some distance (but only if you succeeded on the attack roll): 20 feet if 2 or more size categories smaller than you, 15 feet if 1 size category under you, 10 feet if the same size as you, 5 feet if 1 size category above you, or not at all if 2 or more size categories above you. Any victim of this effect must also make a DC 15 Reflex save or be rendered prone. If the victim's backward movement is stopped by something, such as a wall, he or she takes an additional 3d6 damage that is treated as falling damage.<br><br />
# If you succeded in your attack roll, any creature within 30ft of you must make a DC 20 Will save or be stunned by your awesomeness by one round. <br />
# After you perform your Falcon Punch, and only if you succeeded on the attack roll, your character must pose and say "Show me ya moves!" If any nearby enemies have Combat Reflexes or a similar effect, they get a second attack of opportunity against you. Taking that attack of opportunity is considered dishonorable by all but the most despicable villains, though.<br><br />
Falcon Punch has a cooldown time of 1d4 rounds, you must wait that long after a Falcon Punch before you can perform another. For the purposes of adjudicating magic suppressing effects, the punch is treated as a supernatural ability.<br />
|normal=You are not incredibly awesome.<br />
|special=A Fighter may select this as one of his Fighter Bonus Feats.<br />
}}<br />
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----<br />
Back to [[Main Page]] &rarr; [[Dungeons and Dragons]] &rarr; [[DnD Character Options|Character Options]] &rarr; [[DnD Feats|Feats]] &rarr; [[DnD General Feats|General Feats]]<br />
[[Category:DnD]]<br />
[[Category:3.5e]]<br />
[[Category:User]]<br />
[[Category:Feat]]<br />
[[Category:Fighter Bonus Feat]]<br />
[[Category:General Feat]]<br />
</div></div>Genowhirlhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Fiendish_Brute_(3.5e_Class)&diff=558132Fiendish Brute (3.5e Class)2012-04-04T05:43:53Z<p>Genowhirl: remove delete (complete as intended)</p>
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<div><br />
{{stub|Missing starting package.}}<br />
{{Protection Against IP Edits}}<br />
{{DnD Base Class Infobox<br />
|img=85119-bigthumbnail.jpg<br />
|imgloc=top<br />
|imgsize=300px<br />
|imgcaption=Rawr! I mean... ''Rowwr!''<br />
|rating_power=5<br />
|raters_power=1<br />
|rating_wording=5<br />
|raters_wording=1<br />
|rating_formatting=5<br />
|raters_formatting=1<br />
|rating_flavor=5<br />
|raters_flavor=1<br />
|status=Complete<br />
|editing=Spelling and grammar only<br />
|type=Combat-Focused, Bad Guy<br />
|desc=A class-based way to create interesting new fiends<br />
}}<br />
<br />
==Fiendish Brute==<br />
''"Rowwr!"''<br />
<br />
The power of a fiend goes beyond mere magical power: it is a transformation into a form that most suits one’s evil. For some fiends, physical power is the route by which they work their will on the world, and fangs and claws are just a few of the weapons that fiends develop in order to rend the helpless flesh of their prey. Physical transformations like stingers, wings, poisons, and vile diseases all find their way into the armaments of fiends, but do not think that these are the limits of their evil; fiends are nothing if not creative in the pursuit of their own particular brand of evil. <br />
<br />
===Making a Fiendish Brute===<br />
<br />
'''Abilities:''' The Fiendish Brute is meant to be a useful source for combat-oriented [[DnD Fiend Feats|Fiend feats]]. You'll probably want to take some of those.<br />
<br />
'''Races:''' The Fiendish Brute is only available to [[SRD:Outsider Type|Outsiders]] with a plane of origin in the Lower Planes. Creatures from the Prime Material Plane whose ancestors were from a Lower Plane may take this class, but they must have the [[SRD:Outsider Type|Outsider]] type.<br />
<br />
'''Alignment:''' A character must be non-good to take any levels in Fiendish Brute. Nothing happens to a Fiendish Brute if he becomes Good, save that he must look elsewhere for class advancing.<br />
<br />
'''Starting Gold:''' 4d4x10 gp (100 gold)<br />
<br />
'''[[SRD:Race Descriptions#Starting Age|Starting Age]]:''' As Warforged Rogue.<br />
<br />
{| class="{{d20}}"<br />
|+<br />
<div>{{#anc:Table: The Fiendish Brute}}</div><br />
Hit Die: d10<br />
|-<br />
! rowspan="2" | Level<br />
! rowspan="2" | [[BAB|Base<br/>Attack Bonus]]<br />
! colspan="3" | [[SRD:Saving Throw|Saving Throw]]s<br />
! rowspan="2" | Special<br />
|-<br />
! [[SRD:Saving Throw#Fortitude|Fort]] || [[SRD:Saving Throw#Reflex|Ref]] || [[SRD:Saving Throw#Will|Will]]<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|1st|| class="left" | +0 || +2 || +2 || +0<br />
| class="left" | [[#Natural Weapons|Natural Weapons]], [[#Natural Armor|Natural Armor]], [[#Attribute Boost|Attribute Boost]]<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|2nd|| class="left" | +1 || +3 || +3 || +0<br />
| class="left" | [[#Bonus Feat|Bonus Feat]]<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|3rd|| class="left" | +1 || +3 || +3 || +1<br />
| class="left" | [[#Attribute Boost|Attribute Boost]]<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|4th||class="left" | +2 || +4 || +4 || +1<br />
| class="left" | [[#Bonus Feat|Bonus Feat]]<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|5th||class="left" | +2 || +4 || +4 || +1<br />
| class="left" | [[#Attribute Boost|Attribute Boost]]<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|6th||class="left" | +3 || +5 || +5 || +2<br />
| class="left" | [[#Bonus Feat|Bonus Feat]]<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|7th||class="left" | +3 || +5 || +5 || +2<br />
| class="left" | [[#Attribute Boost|Attribute Boost]]<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|8th||class="left" | +4 || +6 || +6 || +2<br />
| class="left" | [[#Bonus Feat|Bonus Feat]]<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|9th||class="left" | +4 || +6 || +6 || +3<br />
| class="left" | [[#Attribute Boost|Attribute Boost]]<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|10th||class="left" | +5 || +7 || +7 || +3<br />
| class="left" | [[#Bonus Feat|Bonus Feat]]<br />
|}<br />
'''Class Skills (4 + [[SRD:Intelligence|Int]] modifier per level, &times;4 at 1st level)'''<br/><br />
[[SRD:Balance|Balance]] ([[Dex]]), [[SRD:Climb|Climb]] ([[Str]]), [[SRD:Hide|Hide]] ([[Dex]]), [[SRD:Jump|Jump]] ([[Str]]), [[SRD:Listen|Listen]] ([[Wis]]), [[SRD:Move Silently|Move Silently]] ([[Dex]]), [[SRD:Sense Motive|Sense Motive]] ([[Wis]]), [[SRD:Spot|Spot]] ([[Wis]]), [[SRD:Survival|Survival]] ([[Wis]]), and [[SRD:Swim|Swim]] ([[Str]]).<br />
<br />
====Class Features====<br />
<br />
'''Weapon and Armor Proficiency:''' Fiendish Brutes are proficient only with armor spikes, and aren't inherently proficient with any armor.<br />
<br />
'''{{#anc:Natural Weapons}}:''' A Fiendish Brute has 2 claw attacks, one attached to each arm (or its two front legs if it is a quadruped, if it has no limbs at all it grows two vestigial arms that have claws at the end). These claws are [[SRD:Natural Weapons|natural weapons]] and inflict damage normal for the creature's size.<br />
<br />
'''{{#anc:Natural Armor}}:''' A Fiendish Brute has a [[SRD:Natural Armor|natural]] armor bonus of 3 plus its class level. So a 7th level Fiendish Brute has a natural armor bonus of +10.<br />
<br />
'''{{#anc:Attribute Boost}}:''' At 1st level and every odd numbered level afterward, the Fiendish Brute's physical attributes improve, as if it had gained several character levels. Every time the Fiendish Brute gains an attribute boost, two of his physical attributes irrevocably increase by 1.<br />
<br />
'''{{#anc:Bonus Feat}}:''' At every even numbered level, the Fiendish Brute gains a bonus feat. This feat may be any [[DnD Fiend Feats|[Fiend]]], [[DnD Monstrous Feats|[Monstrous]]], or [[DnD General Feats|[General]]] feat, and the Fiendish Brute must meet the prerequisites.<br />
<br />
===Campaign Information===<br />
<br />
====Playing a Fiendish Brute====<br />
<br />
'''Religion:''' Fiendish Brutes likely don't worry much about religion, seeing as how they are definitely the offspring of fiends, and Good-aligned religions tend to frown upon that. Also, when you know that devils and demons exist and that you are one of them, what's there to be afraid of in Hell or the Abyss?<br />
<br />
'''Other Classes:''' Brutes get along with other fiendish classes, but apart from probably bickering with Paladins and Good Clerics, who they get along with is up to an individual's personality and values. Fragile casters may hold the hulking Brutes in disdain, or could admire the usefulness of having a perambulatory wall which can carry multiple tons around. Or be interested in a half-orc whose fiendish ancestry lets him shoot spines. Fighters and Barbarians may love having a Brute to spar with.<br />
<br />
'''Combat:''' The Fiendish Brute could easily be a massive melee bruiser. The Large Size and Huge Size feats each give +8 to Strength, as per creature advancement. Those rules also increase the Constitution Score, giving the Brute a parcel of bonus HP and astounding Fortitude saves. Other Fiendish Feats add tricks such as flight, poison or slime to the Brute's repetoire, giving him a bag of tricks to draw upon.<br />
<br />
'''Advancement:''' The Fiendish Brute, upon reaching his 10 levels, could go into [[Conduit of the Lower Planes (DnD Class)]] or [[True Fiend (DnD Class)]], but almost any non-casting class would go well with four levels of Brute if the Brute is dipped into strategically. With the Large Size and Huge Size feats, the Strength, Constitution, and Natural Armor scores go up (at the expense of Dexterity) and come with the ability to wield larger weapons. And if being twenty feet tall is a bit of a problem, one could also take the Harmless Form feat to give oneself a disguise which won't excite suspicion (Also a nice one for Rogues to have). So, yes, definitely one for the melee fighters. As for what the other classes can add to the Brute...The Brute would gain weapon and armor proficiencies, giving him more options than his natural weapons and buffing up his relatively light AC (being unable to wear armor or use shields ''will'' do that to you.)<br />
<br />
====Fiendish Brutes in the World====<br />
<br />
<br />
{{quote|"Well, yes, I did lie to you about what I was. Would you have talked to me even this much if I'd told you that I can be some twenty feet tall and could smash you flat with one hand?"|orig=[[Belg (DnD NPC)|Belg]], Half-orc Fiendish Brute/True Fiend/Rogue}}<br />
<br />
'''Daily Life:''' Get up, eat, do stuff, sleep. That's about the only constants.<br />
<br />
'''Notables:''' [[Belg (DnD NPC)|Belg]]<br />
<br />
'''Organizations:''' There isn't much of an organization. Brutes may serve their own interests, or may serve those of more powerful fiends.<br />
<br />
'''NPC Reactions:''' Given that the Brute quickly becomes recognizably monstrous, the average NPC is going to FREAK. <br />
<br />
====Fiendish Brute Lore====<br />
<br />
Characters with ranks in [[SRD:Knowledge Skill|Knowledge]] (Planes) can research Fiendish Brutes to learn more about them. When a character makes a skill check, read or paraphrase the following, including information from lower DCs.<br />
<br />
{| class="{{d20}}"<br />
|+ [[SRD:Knowledge Skill|Knowledge]] (Planes)<br />
! DC || class="left" | Result<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
| 5 || class="left" | Them demons is huge monsters! Claws and teeth and all that!<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
| 10 || class="left" | Despite the impressive physical abilities of some fiendish descendents, they're still people, and can be frighteningly intelligent.<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
| 15 || class="left" | Some common Fiendish traits are (explanation of 1d4 Fiendish Feats)<br />
|}<br />
<br />
====Fiendish Brutes in the Game====<br />
<br />
'''Adaptation:''' If you, as a DM, want to keep the Fiend classes and feats in the hole and use them to create unusual enemies, go right ahead. When used for PCs, though, the Fiendish Brutes and other Fiend classes can make interesting characters who either embrace their fiendish heritage or struggle to prove they are more than their bloodline. Which is made difficult because character could gain Fiendish feats "unwillingly" and therefore be stuck with poisonous claws or snake tails they don't want but can't get rid of.<br />
<br />
'''Sample Encounter:''' Fiendish Brutes are often found in service to greater fiends--the True Fiends. That said, in a chaotic and complex world, there's no telling where fiendish ancestry will express itself.<br />
<br />
''EL 7:'' Henda. [[Lizardfolk, Variant (3.5e Race)]] [Baatezu] [[True Fiend (DnD Class)|True Fiend]] 1/Fiendish Brute 6 <br />
<br />
Henda is a big black-scaled Lizardfolk, with spine ridges on his shoulders, tail, and legs. He stands about nine feet tall, and weighs about five hundred pounds.<br />
<br />
{{Stat Block 2<br />
|name= Henda<br />
|al=Neutral Evil |size=Large |type= [[SRD:Humanoid|Humanoid]] ([[SRD:Reptilian_Subtype|Reptilian]], [[SRD:Aquatic_Subtype|Aquatic]], Baatezu)<br />
|init=+3 |listen=+11 |spot=+11<br />
|ac=23 |touch=12 |flat=20<br />
|hp=96 (See below) |hd=1d8 + 6d10 + 28<br />
|fort=12 |ref=11 |will=5<br />
|spd=30 ground speed, 60 foot swim speed, 10 foot climb speed<br />
|melee1= 2 [[claws]] +11 (1d8 + 8), 1 [[Bite]] +11 (2d6 + 12), Spine +11 (1d6 + 8 and Poison 1d2 Dex, Fort Save, DC 17)<br />
|ranged1= 2 Spines +6 (30-foot range increment, 1d6 damage, Poison 1d2 Dex, Fort Save, DC 17)<br />
|bab=+4 |grp=+16<br />
|str=27 |dex=16 |con=18 |int=10 |wis=12 |cha=6<br />
|sq=See in Darkness, Fiendish Invisibility, Track<br />
|feats=[[SRD:Power Attack|Power Attack]], [[SRD:Improved Bull Rush|Improved Bull Rush]], [[Spines of Fury (DnD Feat)]], [[Poison Sacs (DnD Feat)]] (Small Monstrous Centipede Venom on the Spines), [[Fiendish Invisibility (DnD Feat)]] (Visible for a round after touching a mortal), [[Large Size (DnD Feat)]]<br />
|skills= [[Jump]] +18, [[SRD:Knowledge|Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering)]] +4, [[Listen]] +11, [[Spot]] +11, [[Survival]] +5, [[Swim]] +18<br />
}}<br />
<br />
<br />
'''Notes:''' This is a boss intended to be used against a level 5 (or so) party in an SRD (or mostly so) game.<br />
<br />
Henda's story is that he's been in a forgotten dungeon--I mean, an actual underground jail--for entirely too long. I used Surgo's Lizardfolk variant because I like the idea of a demonic lizard and the SRD Lizardfolk is, indeed, unsatisfying. Henda has +2 Str and -2 Cha as his racial modifiers.<br />
<br />
The setting for this is a decaying dungeon. It's dark, there's rubble, and the players have to contend with a 9-foot-tall lizardman who can shoot spikes and bites like a crocodile. Oh, and he's invisible. And he's immortal (except to being killed by violence) so he hasn't died from hunger (though he wishes he could have). Henda's basically past the point of reasoning, he'll be so glad to have a chance at fresh meat.<br />
<br />
Henda, once he's out of his cell, will go invisible and snipe at the players using Spines of Fury. Firing two spines at a time, that's seven volleys. After six volleys Henda will break off his last two spines and use them for daggers in melee before going to his claws and bite.<br />
<br />
The melee is when he's vulnerable. He doesn't become visible if he hits with the ranged attacks, but if he hits someone in melee (or Bull Rushes them), he becomes visible.<br />
<br />
He has max HP (96) so the party doesn't immediately take him down, but he wears no armor apart from his natural armor, so the players have an relatively light AC to contend with--this is intentional. I find it less irritating to carve at a pile of hit points than to try to beat a super AC. Also, him being one target against an entire party means he'll be outnumbered. Remember, Henda is insane with hunger, and he's not coherent enough to focus on just one character. He'll attack the party members essentially at random.<br />
<br />
Henda's light on treasure, but the players will be able to pick up unbroken spines and use them as daggers which also do 1d2 Dex damage due to the poison (DC 17 Fortitude Save, just like when he used them; I'd let the technical Large size slide). For what that's worth.<br />
<br />
As a final note, Henda has the Level 1 Baatezu traits from [[True Fiend (DnD Class)|True Fiend]]. This makes him able to see in any darkness and gives him immunity to fire. You can drop the fire immunity, but I kinda like him being able to see them no matter where he is--and, after all, it's a dark dungeon. This is balanced by Henda being about as quiet as a boulder rolling downhill while ranting about how good it will be to eat something--ANYTHING. He also smells of brimstone, so you may want to clue them into that.<br />
<br />
===See Also===<br />
* [[Conduit of the Lower Planes (DnD Class)|Conduit of the Lower Planes]]<br />
* [[True Fiend (DnD Class)|True Fiend]]<br />
<br />
===External Links===<br />
* [http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=28828 Tome of Fiends (source)]<br />
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----<br />
{{DnD Base Classes Breadcrumb}}<br/><br />
{{3.5e Tome of Fiends Breadcrumb}} &rarr; [[Tome of Fiends (3.5e Sourcebook)/Fiends with Class|Fiends with Class]]<br />
[[Category:DnD]]<br />
[[Category:3.5e]]<br />
[[Category:User]]<br />
[[Category:Class]]<br />
[[Category:Base Class]]<br />
[[Category:Bad Guy]]<br />
[[Category:Combat-Focused]]<br />
[[Category:Tome]]<br />
[[Category:Tome of Fiends Sourcebook]]</div>Genowhirlhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Dragon_(3.5e_Racial_Paragon_Class)&diff=558131Dragon (3.5e Racial Paragon Class)2012-04-04T05:43:14Z<p>Genowhirl: remove delete.</p>
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<div><br />
{{stub|Missing epic information, a starting package, lore, and in the game (and an example NPC).}}<br />
{{DnD Base Class Infobox<br />
|img=Let the lightnings bring the death.jpg<br />
|imgloc=top<br />
|imgsize=300px<br />
|imgcaption=''It's a dragon. A middling reaction is not an option here.''<br />
|rating_power=<br />
|raters_power=<br />
|rating_wording=<br />
|raters_wording=<br />
|rating_formatting=<br />
|raters_formatting=<br />
|rating_flavor=<br />
|raters_flavor=<br />
|status=Completed<br />
|editing=<br />
|type=Combat-Focused, Skill-Focused<br />
|desc=A racial base class designed to iron out some of the weirder features Dragons get in normal DnD.<br />
}}<br />
<br />
==Dragon==<br />
<br />
Dragons. You know them. They're big scaly lizards with wings and extremely unpleasant breath. They're also all over the place with their alignments, so the class is fairly broad to allow one to make it up as one goes along.<br />
<br />
===Making a Dragon===<br />
<br />
The dragon is a racial class, designed to be ridden the whole way through. Because it doesn't get a pile of extra HD, its chassis looks quite impressive, what with the good saves. However, the saves are just there to compensate for the dragon usually not being one to multiclass and increase their saving throws that way. It has impressive natural weapons and physical abilities, for once allowing a party to have a member who can fight Huge/Gargantuan/Colossal monsters on their own terms. Their natural weapons are varied and strong, but balanced out by them being unable to pick up enhancement bonuses thereby making them subject to frequent and stiff DR.<br />
<br />
A dragon makes an excellent mount, and this class need not be used for a PC--it could just as easily apply to a cohort/mount.<br />
<br />
'''Abilities:''' [[Strength]] and [[Constitution]] help the dragon with its combat. [[Charisma]] helps with their spell-like abilities. <br />
<br />
'''Races:''' Did you READ the name of the class? Well, okay, actually, you can pick a dragon color/species and get its types and subtypes.<br />
<br />
'''Alignment:''' Any.<br />
<br />
'''Starting Gold:''' Just about anything. It could vary from a piece of quartz and most of a roll of quarters, to the dragon inheriting a decent hoard.<br />
<br />
'''[[SRD:Race Descriptions#Starting Age|Starting Age]]:''' Any. See [[#Immortality|Immortality]].<br />
<br />
{| class="{{d20}}"<br />
|+<br />
<div>{{#anc:Table: The Dragon}}</div><br />
Hit Die: d12<br />
|-<br />
! rowspan="2" | Level<br />
! rowspan="2" | [[BAB|Base<br/>Attack Bonus]]<br />
! colspan="3" | [[SRD:Saving Throw|Saving Throw]]s<br />
! rowspan="2" | Special<br />
|-<br />
! [[SRD:Saving Throw#Fortitude|Fort]] || [[SRD:Saving Throw#Reflex|Ref]] || [[SRD:Saving Throw#Will|Will]]<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|1st|| class="left" | +1 || +2 || +2 || +2<br />
| class="left" | [[#Immortality|Immortality]], [[#Immunities|Immunities]], [[#Bite|Bite]], [[#Breath Weapon|Breath Weapon]]<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|2nd|| class="left" | +2 || +3 || +3 || +3<br />
| class="left" | [[#Claws|Claws]], [[#Draconic Scales|Draconic Scales]] 1, [[#Draconic Strength|Draconic Strength]] +2, <br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|3rd|| class="left" | +3 || +3 || +3 || +3<br />
| class="left" | [[#Draconic Toughness|Draconic Toughness]] +2, [[#Flight|Flight]], <br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|4th||class="left" | +4 || +4 || +4 || +4<br />
| class="left" | [[#Bonus Feat|Bonus Feat]], [[#Draconic Scales|Draconic Scales]] 2 <br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|5th||class="left" | +5 || +4 || +4 || +4<br />
| class="left" | [[#Size Increase|Size Increase]] (Large) <br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|6th||class="left" | +6/+1 || +5 || +5 || +5<br />
| class="left" | [[#Draconic Strength|Draconic Strength]] +4, [[#Draconic Scales|Draconic Scales]] 3, [[#Sphere|Sphere]]<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|7th||class="left" | +7/+2 || +5 || +5 || +5<br />
| class="left" | [[#Draconic Sense|Draconic Sense]], [[#Strengthened Wings|Strengthened Wings]]<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|8th||class="left" | +8/+3 || +6 || +6 || +6<br />
| class="left" | [[#Bonus Feat|Bonus Feat]], [[#Damage Reduction|Damage Reduction]], [[#Draconic Scales|Draconic Scales]] 4<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|9th||class="left" | +9/+4 || +6 || +6 || +6<br />
| class="left" | [[#Bonus Feat|Bonus Feat]]<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|10th||class="left" | +10/+5 || +7 || +7 || +7<br />
| class="left" | [[#Draconic Strength|Draconic Strength]] +6 [[#Draconic Scales|Draconic Scales]] 5, [[#Increased Size|Increased Size]] (Huge)<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|11th||class="left" | +11/+6/+6|| +7 || +7 || +7<br />
| class="left" | [[#Blindsense|Blindsense]], [[#Draconic Toughness|Draconic Toughness]] +4, [[#Spell Resistance|Spell Resistance]]<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|12th||class="left" | +12/+7/+7 || +8 || +8 || +8<br />
| class="left" | [[#Bonus Feat|Bonus Feat]], [[#Draconic Scales|Draconic Scales]] 6, [[#Sphere|Sphere]]<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|13th||class="left" | +13/+8/+8 || +8 || +8 || +8<br />
| class="left" | [[#Frightful Presence|Frightful Presence]]<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|14th||class="left" | +14/+9/+9 || +9 || +9 || +9<br />
| class="left" | [[#Draconic Strength|Draconic Strength]] +8 [[#Draconic Scales|Draconic Scales]] 7<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|15th||class="left" | +15/+10/+10 || +9 || +9 || +9<br />
| class="left" | [[#Size Increase|Size Increase]] (Gargantuan)<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|16th||class="left" | +16/+11/+11/+11 || +10 || +10 || +10<br />
| class="left" | [[#Blindsight|Blindsight]], [[#Bonus Feat|Bonus Feat]], [[#Draconic Scales|Draconic Scales]] 8<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|17th||class="left" | +17/+12/+12/+12 || +10 || +10 || +10<br />
| class="left" | [[#Crush|Crush]]<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|18th||class="left" | +18/+13/+13/+13 || +11 || +11 || +11<br />
| class="left" | [[#Draconic Strength|Draconic Strength]] +10, [[#Sphere|Sphere]], [[#Draconic Scales|Draconic Scales]] 9<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}<br />
|19th||class="left" | +19/+14/+14/+14 || +11 || +11 || +11<br />
| class="left" | [[#Draconic Toughness|Draconic Toughness]] +6<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|20th||class="left" | +20/+15/+15/+15 || +12 || +12 || +12<br />
| class="left" | [[#Bonus Feat|Bonus Feat]], [[#Draconic Scales|Draconic Scales]] 10, [[#Size Increase|Size Increase]] (Colossal)<br />
|-<br />
| colspan="42" class="skill" |<br />
'''Class Skills 6 + [[SRD:Intelligence|Int]] modifier per level, &times;4 at 1st level)'''<br/><br />
[[Concentration]] ([[Con]]) , [[Diplomacy]] ([[Cha]]), [[Escape Artist]] ([[Dex]]), [[Intimidate]], [[Knowledge]] ([[Int]]), [[Listen]] ([[Wis]]), [[Search]] ([[Int]]), [[Sense Motive]] ([[Wis]]), [[Spot]] ([[Wis]]), [[Use Magic Device]] ([[Cha]]), any three others.<br />
<br />
|}<br />
<br />
====Class Features====<br />
<br />
Dragons get stronger as they grow and develop. They also get very interesting natural weapons. All of the following are class features of the Dragon.<br />
<br />
'''{{#anc:Weapon and Armor Proficiency}}:''' None.<br />
<br />
'''{{#anc:Immortality}}:''' The dragon doesn't age.<br />
<br />
'''{{#anc:Immunities}}:''' The dragon gains immunity to [[paralysis]], [[:Category:Sleep Effect|sleep]], and one energy type (or another kind of effect roughly as common).<br />
<br />
'''{{#anc:Bite}}:''' The dragon has a bite primary weapon, with a base damage of 1d8 for a [[SRD:Size Category|Medium]] dragon, plus 1{{1/2}} its [[Strength]] modifier.<br />
<br />
'''{{#anc:Breath Weapon ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Supernatural|Su]])}}:''' The dragon can emit a deadly breath weapon of the energy type to which it has immunity. As appropriate, it will either come out as a cone with short range, or a line which is twice that long and has a width of 5 feet plus 5 feet per ten class levels. The breath weapon deals 2d6 damage per character level, with a Constitution-based Reflex save for half. Once used, this breath weapon cannot be used again for 1d4+1 rounds.<br />
<br />
'''{{#anc:Claws}}:''' At 2nd level, the dragon gains two claw secondary attacks, with a base damage of 1d6 for a Medium dragon, plus its Strength modifier.<br />
<br />
'''{{#anc:Draconic Scales ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Extraordinary|Ex]])}}:''' At 2nd level, the dragon gains an enhancement bonus to natural armor equal to its class level.<br />
<br />
'''{{#anc:Draconic Strength ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Extraordinary|Ex]])}}:''' At 2nd level, the dragon gains a +2 enhancement bonus to [[Strength]]. This bonus increases by +2 every four levels after 2nd.<br />
<br />
'''{{#anc:Draconic Toughness ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Extraordinary|Ex]])}}:''' At 3rd level, the dragon gains a +2 enhancement bonus to [[Constitution]]. This bonus increases by +2 every eight levels after 3rd. Also, the dragon gains an extra 3 hit points per class level.<br />
<br />
'''{{#anc:Flight ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Extraordinary|Ex]])}}:''' From 3rd level on, the dragon's wings grow enough to allow flight, giving it a fly speed equal to its land speed, with poor maneuverability for a Medium to Huge dragon; Small or smaller dragons have average maneuverability, and Gargantuan or larger dragons have clumsy maneuverability.<br />
<br />
'''{{#anc:Bonus Feat}}:''' At 4th level and every five levels thereafter, the dragon gains a monstrous feat for which it meets the prerequisites.<br />
<br />
'''{{#anc:Size Increase}}:''' At 5th level and every five levels thereafter, the dragon grows a [[SRD:Size Category|size category]], except its ability scores remain unchanged.<br />
<br />
'''{{#anc:Sphere}}:''' At 6th level, the dragon gains basic access to a sphere (or upgrades access already had). Every six levels thereafter, the access to that sphere improves; if it is already expert, the dragon gains a monstrous feat instead.<br />
<br />
'''{{#anc:Draconic Senses ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Extraordinary|Ex]])}}:''' From 7th level on, the dragon gains 60' darkvision and sees twice again as far in low-light conditions. Both benefits are cumulative with existing darkvision or low-light vision.<br />
<br />
'''{{#anc:Strengthened Wings}}:''' From 7th level on, a landed dragon can make secondary natural attacks with both of its wings, with a base damage of 1d6 for a Medium dragon, plus the dragon's Strength modifier. Also, the dragon's fly speed doubles. Every four levels after 7th, the fly speed multiplier increases by 1.<br />
<br />
'''{{#anc:Damage Reduction ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Supernatural|Su]])}}:''' At 8th level, the dragon gains damage reduction equal to its class level, pierced by magic weapons.<br />
<br />
'''{{#anc:Tail}}:''' At 8th level, the dragon gains a tail secondary weapon, with a base damage of 1d8 for a Medium dragon, plus 3/2 the dragon's Strength modifier. Also, the dragon can, as a standard action, sweep its tail over a half-circle of radius equal to its reach; all creatures three or more size categories smaller than the dragon are hit and take normal tail damage, with a Constitution-based Reflex save for half; also, they are each subject to either a bull rush or a trip attack.<br />
<br />
'''{{#anc:Blindsense ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Extraordinary|Ex]])}}:''' At 11th level, the dragon gains 60' blindsense.<br />
<br />
'''Spell Resistance''': At 11th level, the dragon gains spell resistance equal to 5 + its character level.<br />
<br />
'''{{#anc:Frightful Presence ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Extraordinary|Ex]])}}:''' A dragon of at least 13th level can unsettle foes with its mere presence. The ability takes effect automatically whenever the dragon attacks or flies overhead. Creatures within a radius of 15 feet per class level are subject to the effect if they have fewer HD than the dragon. A potentially affected creature that succeeds on a Charisma-based Will save remains immune to that dragon’s frightful presence for 24 hours. On a failure, creatures become shaken for 4d6 rounds (frightened if have 6 fewer HD, or panicked if they have 11 fewer HD). This ability doesn't stack with itself (even if used by more than one creature). Dragons ignore the frightful presence of other dragons.<br />
<br />
'''{{#anc:Blindsight ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Extraordinary|Ex]])}}:''' At 16th level, the dragon gains 60' blindsight.<br />
<br />
'''{{#anc:Crush ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Extraordinary|Ex]])}}:''' A dragon of at least 17th level can land on opponents as a standard action, using its whole body to crush them. A crush attack affects as many creatures as can fit under the dragon’s body, as long as they are all three or more size categories smaller than the dragon. Creatures in the affected area must succeed on a Constitution-based Reflex save or be pinned, automatically taking damage equal to a tail attack, without another save. If the dragon chooses to maintain the pin, treat it as a normal grapple attack. Pinned opponents take damage from the crush each round if they don’t escape. For all effects of the crush attack other than area covered, treat the dragon as one size category larger than normal.<br />
<br />
===Campaign Information===<br />
<br />
===Dragon Feats===<br />
<br />
<br />
{{3.5e Feat<br />
|name=Wing Buffet<br />
|types=Monstrous, Dragon<br />
|summary=The wing attack generates an effect similar to gust of wind spell.<br />
|prereqs=[[Dragon]] creature type, Wing Attack<br />
|benefit= A Dragon can use Wing Buffet attack as a full action doing normal damage and causing a gust of wind effect identical to the spell of the same name, with a DC equal to 15+ constitution modifier. <br />
|normal=<br />
|special= <br />
}}<br />
<br />
{{3.5e Feat<br />
|name= Tail Snap<br />
|types=Monstrous, Dragon<br />
|summary=The tail attack of a dragon <br />
|prereqs=[[Dragon]] creature type, Tail attack<br />
|benefit= Any time a dragon damages a creature who's size is smaller than the dragon with a tail attack they automatically generate a trip attack with no attack of opportunity. The DC to resist is equal to that damage done in the attack. <br />
|normal=<br />
|special= <br />
}}<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
{{3.5e Feat<br />
|name=Ancient Strength<br />
|types=Monstrous, Dragon<br />
|summary=The Dragon strength and constitution are increased.<br />
|prereqs=[[Dragon]] creature type, <br />
|benefit= A Dragon's strength and constitution is increase by +2.<br />
|normal=<br />
|special= This may be taken once per age category, or once per 2 character levels.<br />
}}<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
{{3.5e Feat<br />
|name=Tough Scales<br />
|types=Monstrous, Dragon<br />
|summary=Scales are harder than normal.<br />
|prereqs=[[Dragon]] creature type<br />
|benefit=The Dragon gains +2 to its natural armor class.<br />
|normal=<br />
|special= This may be taken once per age category, or once per 2 character levels.<br />
}}<br />
<br />
<br />
{{3.5e Feat<br />
|name=Harsh Breath<br />
|types=Monstrous, Dragon<br />
|summary=The Dragon's breath is more damaging.<br />
|prereqs=[[Dragon]] creature type<br />
|benefit=The Dragon gains breath weapon's base dice goes from d6 to d8.<br />
|normal=<br />
|special=<br />
}}<br />
<br />
{{3.5e Feat<br />
|name=Humanoid Form<br />
|types=Monstrous, Dragon<br />
|summary= A Dragon may assume a human form once per week.<br />
|prereqs=[[Dragon]] creature type, 10 hit dice<br />
|benefit=A Dragon can assume the shape of a humanoid once per week and can remain in the human form as long as they wish While in they retain their intelligence, wisdom and charisma score but their strength is reduced by 5, and hit points are reduced by 100. Natural AC is halved. They lose natural movement, and attacks, including breath weapon but retain immunities including saving throws. Assuming the shape or returning to dragon form is a move action. <br />
|normal=<br />
|special= This may be taken once per age category, or once per 3 character levels.<br />
}}<br />
<br />
{{3.5e Feat<br />
|name=Greater, Humanoid Form<br />
|types=Monstrous, Dragon<br />
|summary= A Dragon may assume a human form once per week.<br />
|prereqs=[[Dragon]] creature type, 10 hit dice, Humanoid Form Feat<br />
|benefit=As Humanoid Form except the Dragon's Strength is not reduced, and their hit points are not reduced. However Natural Armor class is still halved. In all other ways they can become dragon disciples apotheosis retaining and gaining all the abilities including natural attacks and movement. <br />
|normal=<br />
|special= <br />
}}<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
{{3.5e Feat<br />
|name=Creature of Magic<br />
|types=Monstrous, Dragon<br />
|summary= Dragons have an innate ability to cast magic spells.<br />
|prereqs=[[Dragon]] creature type, Charisma 13 or better.<br />
|benefit=A dragon can pick one wizard or sorcerer spell equal to 1/3 their level (round down) they may cast that spell 3 times per day. <br />
|normal= A Dragon needs a charisma equal to 10+3 times spell level to select a given spell, e.g. a 6th level or (hit dice) Dragon with a 16 charisma may select a 2nd level spell, A 12th level or (hit dice) Dragon with a 22 charisma may select a 4th level spell. The DC of these spells are charisma based.<br />
|special= <br />
}}<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
----<br />
{|<br />
| Back to [[Dungeons and Dragons]] || ->[[DnD Feats]] || ->[[DnD Monstrous Feats]].<br />
|}<br />
[[Category:NBoF]]<br />
[[Category:DnD]]<br />
[[Category:3.5e]]<br />
[[Category:User]]<br />
[[Category:Feat]]<br />
[[Category:Monstrous Feat]]<br />
[[Category:Undead Feat]]<br />
{{OGL Locked Page Left Aligned}}<br />
{{OGL Bottom|a [http://datadeco.com/nbofeats/nbofeats012.html NBoF] Feat|[http://datadeco.com/nbofeats/nbofeats012.html NBoF]}}<br />
</div><br />
<br />
====Playing a Dragon====<br />
<br />
'''Religion:''' Draconic gods. Any alignment-appropriate gods.<br />
<br />
'''Other Classes:''' It depends on the individuals involved, really. Paladins may get along famously with metallic dragons, and they may form a partnership which extends to the Paladin riding the dragon. Of course, Evil warriors could have much the same relationship with chromatics. Also, dragons tend not to like thieves--what with those hoards and all.<br />
<br />
'''Combat:''' You pack a wallop, and you can do it from reach. You also pick up a bit of spellcasting and some other abilities to expand the repetoire of what you can do.<br />
<br />
'''Advancement:''' There isn't much in the way of that. I mean, you COULD, but it seems like cheating somehow.<br />
<br />
====Dragons in the World====<br />
<br />
Dragons are found in caves, mountains, swamps, forests, deserts...pretty much everywhere. They're big, and they keep a large chunk of civilization's money out of circulation.<br />
<br />
'''Daily Life:''' Ancorgon the Red rolled over on his hoard. He absently scratched his belly, knocking loose some coins and gems. Then he went back to sleep, and stayed asleep for a week.<br />
<br />
'''Notables:''' Smaug, Fafnir, Icingdeath...Pick a dragon from Dragonlance, any dragon.<br />
<br />
'''Organizations:''' Not much of one.<br />
<br />
'''NPC Reactions:''' It's a dragon. A middling reaction is not an option here.<br />
<br />
<br />
----<br />
{{DnD Base Classes Breadcrumb}}<br />
[[Category:DnD]]<br />
[[Category:3.5e]]<br />
[[Category:User]]<br />
[[Category:Class]]<br />
[[Category:Base Class]]<br />
[[Category:Combat-Focused]]<br />
[[Category:Skilled]]</div>Genowhirlhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Conduit_of_the_Lower_Planes_(3.5e_Class)&diff=557999Talk:Conduit of the Lower Planes (3.5e Class)2012-04-03T15:39:22Z<p>Genowhirl: </p>
<hr />
<div>== Rating ==<br />
<br />
<s>'''Power - 5/5'''</s> I give this class a 5 out of 5 because this class is extremely magic oriented, and matches other spellcasting class realitively well. &rarr; [[User:Rithaniel|<span style=color:Gray; -moz-border-radius-topleft:25px; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px">Rith</span>]]<sup> [[User talk:Rithaniel|<span style=color:black; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px; -moz-border-radius-topleft:20px">(talk)</span>]]</sup> 23:36, 24 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:This only has 10 levels... That needs to be explained first. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 00:24, 13 November 2009 (MST)<br />
<br />
'''Wording - 5/5''' I give this class a 5 out of 5 because this class is easily understood and, even where it gets a little confusing, it's explained more in depth. &rarr; [[User:Rithaniel|<span style=color:Gray; -moz-border-radius-topleft:25px; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px">Rith</span>]]<sup> [[User talk:Rithaniel|<span style=color:black; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px; -moz-border-radius-topleft:20px">(talk)</span>]]</sup> 23:36, 24 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
<s>'''[[Help:Standards and Formatting (DnD Guideline)|Formatting]] - 2/5'''</s> I give this class a 2 out of 5 because massive portions of the preload are missing and interwiki linking is lacking. &rarr; [[User:Rithaniel|<span style=color:Gray; -moz-border-radius-topleft:25px; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px">Rith</span>]]<sup> [[User talk:Rithaniel|<span style=color:black; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px; -moz-border-radius-topleft:20px">(talk)</span>]]</sup> 23:36, 24 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:Added the missing preload stuff, as well as a level 1 Starting package and a sample encounter/NPC. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 11:32, 28 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::Well, there's still some interwiki linking to be dealt with, but thats really minor, so I'll give it a '''5/5'''. &rarr; [[User:Rithaniel|<span style=color:Gray; -moz-border-radius-topleft:25px; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px">Rith</span>]]<sup> [[User talk:Rithaniel|<span style=color:black; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px; -moz-border-radius-topleft:20px">(talk)</span>]]</sup> 17:11, 28 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
'''Flavor - 5/5''' I give this class a 5 out of 5 because a fiend is more than an individual. &rarr; [[User:Rithaniel|<span style=color:Gray; -moz-border-radius-topleft:25px; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px">Rith</span>]]<sup> [[User talk:Rithaniel|<span style=color:black; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px; -moz-border-radius-topleft:20px">(talk)</span>]]</sup> 23:36, 24 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== Clarification Request ==<br />
<br />
Um... just wondering, why does the Conduit of the lower Planes spontaneously learn 6 levels of sorcery at level 10? my brother and i love this class to death, I've made a half-dozen variants out of it, but it just doesn't seem to make sense that you take ten levels of one class that uses a very unorthodox method of magic and then at the end instantly gain the rough equivalent of 6 levels of another spellcasting class in addition to the wide variety of magic that one may possess from progressing through the class itself. Can anyone give reason as to why the Conduit of the Lower Planes should have such magical prowess? {{Unsigned|67.175.172.216|00:16, 13 November 2009 (MDT)}}<br />
<br />
:And why does this class only have 10 levels? --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 00:23, 13 November 2009 (MST)<br />
<br />
:Probably because that's four levels lower than a level-appropriate effect. As in, if the conduit had a cohort, and the cohort had his own sorceror cohort, the Conduit's casting would be equal with that. That class feature is, in fact, inferior in most ways to the Leadership feat. If you used Leadership to get a cohort, he'd be 2 levels lower and have his own actions to cast the spells; that only advantage is your own personal versatility. The way the D&D power scaling works, being two levels below something else is hard. Being four levels means you could very, very easily die. Or, put it this way. You're level ten. '''''Bing!''''' You just scored 6 levels of Sorceror, at level 10.<br />
:Congratulation, you can cast Fireball and Lightning Bolt and Major Image (admittedly decent effects). People who took sorceror for 10 levels are now casting stuff like Cloudkill and Wall of Force and Telekinesis, with better DCs and a higher-caster level effect; it's a nice supplement but it's honestly not THAT overpowered. Someone with ten levels of wizard has more spells known and will get 6th-level spells next level. <br />
<br />
:And it has 10 levels because of a variety of reasons, GD. For one thing, it's the 'magic' Fiend class for using the Tome of Fiends mechanics/feats. Its intense progression in the Spheres means it's scoring a Sphere every other level; the True Fiend only get them every four. <br />
:I'm sure you know this, but the way a sphere's casting works...Taking a sphere once means you can use each spell-like in the Sphere once a day. Taking it again bumps you up to 3/day. Taking it a third time makes it at-will. <br />
:Continuing the progression, making a 20-level Conduit class means making it easy for someone to score at-will casting for three different spheres over the course of the game. People may not believe it, but F&K do know when something is crazy-go-nuts, so they made it short to limit it getting even crazier at high-level play. As it is, you can max one sphere out already, but it does make you take a hit to your versatility. If you want to advance in the theme, you can either take Sorceror and rely on the scaling spheres to shore that up, or you could take True Fiend and continue gaining Spheres and all the other Fiendish traits at much reduced rate. Or you could go Fiendish Brute and become both magical *and* ugly.--[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 00:43, 13 November 2009 (MST)<br />
<br />
== Typo ==<br />
<br />
From the page:<br />
<br />
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Conduits of the Lower Planes are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, as well as the whip, the scourge, and the dire flail. '''True Fiends''' are proficient with light armor but not with shields of any kind.<br />
<br />
== Rating == <br />
<br />
<s>'''Power - 5/5'''</s> I give this class a 5 out of 5 because though there are more powerful classes out there, this give a wide flexibility if you think about what you are going to do instead of just barging in. Balanced rather than just an overpowered brute. --[[Special:Contributions/50.47.244.73|50.47.244.73]] 12:37, 9 August 2011 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:This only has 10 levels... That needs to be explained first. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 19:10, 10 August 2011 (MDT)<br />
<br />
'''Wording - 5/5''' I give this class a 5 out of 5 because it's just so awesome --[[Special:Contributions/50.47.244.73|50.47.244.73]] 12:37, 9 August 2011 (MDT)<br />
<br />
'''[[Help:Standards and Formatting (DnD Guideline)|Formatting]] - 5/5''' I give this class a 5 out of 5 because easy to read, easy to understand, and helps you understand the drive behind your character. --[[Special:Contributions/50.47.244.73|50.47.244.73]] 12:37, 9 August 2011 (MDT)<br />
<br />
'''Flavor - 5/5''' I give this class a 5 out of 5 because this class is delicious. In the book it even says that you just have to be descended from something from the lower planes, I take that as kind of like the idea that sorcerers get their power from a distant draconic bloodline. It's something that can add to the backstory, how it overshadowed your family driving you to your adventure etc. --[[Special:Contributions/50.47.244.73|50.47.244.73]] 12:37, 9 August 2011 (MDT)<br />
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== Powerhouse? ==<br />
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I think that the conduit should actually be a prestige class with quite high requirements because A) its extremely easy to trump the "Has to originate from one of the lower planes" rule, all you have to do is say is "a hundred generations ago, my female relative had a child with a succubus and the bloodline has watered down to me. I am 99.9% human and .1% succubus" and you would pass the requirement. B) A level seven conduit, can take expert sphere access “Fire” and basic sphere access “Bone” with petitioner immunities baator, would be able to throw a fireball at his feet while surrounded by goblins and boom! instant zombie army. Is it just me or is that a little overpowered?<br />
--[[User:Warkan|Warkan]] 21:58, 22 November 2011 (MST)<br />
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:Not particularly. In that particular instance, they'd be fairly low-level zombies and would serve mainly as speedbumps to level-appropriate opposition, if that (considering flying monsters start growing more prevalent around then). Now, it's something ''interesting'' and means you make your own minion squad (yaaaay minions!) but it isn't game breaking and you've spent a ton of your character options just to do one trick which isn't that great. Anything you could mass-produce by the time you can slam Fireballs down all day just isn't really a threat to challenges on your level (but admittedly makes village-raiding fun), and anything really good as a zombie is so close to your level that killing it with fireballs will take a while (they don't do that much damage compared to monster HP, honestly) and be sort of hazardous. And even then, zombies sort of bite as a critter. So it's handy to keep one or two stronger ones around, if you can work out how to make them keep up (Portable hole? Bottomed with Black Sand from Sandstorm, maybe, so they heal between uses?) but you won't be able to keep more than one or two around and your turnover will be sort of high, considering how much abuse they'll take. I mean, level 7 is when Chimeras, flesh golems, and other facebreakers kick in. Kytons, aka, "Hope you like chain-rape!" showed up a level earlier. --[[Special:Contributions/173.245.56.215|173.245.56.215]] 00:00, 24 November 2011 (MST)<br />
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Still, there are tons of ways to improve undead out there (Prestige classes, spells, templates, and feats, etc.). On another note, the bone sphere's ability states that "all creature of up to 10 HD killed by one of your spell like abilities rises as a zombie" so, if you just finished killing five ogres, you just got yourself an amazing bodyguard, they have movement 40ft (8 squares) and quite a bit of hit points and the fact that the character can kill flying creatures also gives him an advantage (Very young dragons can carry a normal character). <br />
I guess at a certain level the ability evens out, but you would still have a huge army to throw at your enemies. Example: A level 18 conduit/wizard, has killed about 150 creatures in his career, he is facing a Balor, there is a 1/20 chance of a critical hit per attack, times 150, times how many rounds each zombie is going to last, the Balor is going to lose quite a bit of health before the actual character comes into play.<br />
--[[User:Warkan|Warkan]] 21:31, 28 November 2011 (MST)<br />
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:In that extremely-unlikely-to-occur hypothetical, sure. But I think you're getting too set on the hypothetical there (and the Balor can just [[SRD:Greater Teleport|teleport]] the heck out of range. As many times as he wants. And Quickened [[SRD:Telekinesis|telekinesis]] three-times a day, at-will regardless. And [[SRD:Implosion|implosion]] and...you get the idea. And I hope you can handle a DC 27 Will Save by that point, because this is going to turn into "HELLO, MIND-SLAVE!" if you can't). <br />
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:In practice, a conduit isn't going to have 150 zombies there. Transport is a pain, he's going to lose a lot of them along the way to level 18 (using zombies to kill things means you go through a lot of zombies) and table goodwill is going to go down drastically if someone tries to roll 150 times. By the time he can wax 5 ogres by himself to score a bodyguard with his spell-likes, he's so hardcore he just needs them around to look pretty and be a meatshield because he's stronger than they are. <br />
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:And it's debatable whether he would be responsible for killing most things he's encountered. A really, really good approach to wizards' (and to an extent, druids') spells is to use Sleep or Color Spray and let the other players handle the shanking. Or Solid Fog and then Black Tentacles--which admittedly will eventually kill stuff. EVENTUALLY he'll get junk like Acid Cloud and Finger of Death and Phantasmal Killer which lets him just slay something, but it's going to be a while. <br />
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:Past level 7, anything you can zombie up isn't a huge increase in character power or gamebreaking. Well, okay, if you want to jump through a ton of hoops, sure, you could work something out but you could probably find stuff just as strong with less effort. (Solid Fog + Black Tentacles. Venom Sphere plus that Tome of Fiends breath weapon feat on Finger of Death if you're feeling froggy. If you're high enough level, you make a horizontal [[SRD:Gate]] to the Negative Energy plane under someone's feet, so they fall into it and get Free Vacation In The Negative Energy Plane (no save). Or you could drop him into Pelor's living room and hope Pelor's up for some light exercise...Anyway.) <br />
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:Your concerns, while well-meaning, aren't really justified and the situations you cite require really, really, ''really'' unlikely circumstances. Any player who can make them work should also be smart enough to find something else to have fun with. I don't see any problems especial to the Conduit that can't be done with any other casting-heavy class. Your concerns are over the system in general, not the class. (Honestly, I'd be a lot more afraid of a Cleric with a ton of undead rather than a Conduit with a big pile).--[[Special:Contributions/173.245.56.215|173.245.56.215]] 23:49, 28 November 2011 (MST)<br />
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Thanks for helping. I owe an explanation now that the matter is settled. I am a dungeon master with four level 7 players, one of them a conduit. But as time goes on the conduit character is really making game play hard, the other players have all talked to me about it but i didn't know what to do. Now I do, I will just get them to have a relatively high cleric at the end of the of the next adventure and make the conduit fall through a certain gate to the negative energy plane, the player is just going to have to make a new character a equal level.<br />
Thanks again! <br />
I will be deleting the Powerhouse? question tommorow at 6:00 pm (MST) --[[User:Warkan|Warkan]] 09:19, 29 November 2011 (MST)<br />
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:If you do, I'm restoring it. I enjoyed the debate. That aside, you say the other players have talked to you, but have you talked to the player in question? The Negative Energy Plane Vacation is ''too'' heavy-handed to nail on a player out of the blue because you don't like the character shtick, especially on people who've never thought of it. I just don't bring it up as a DM unless they already know about it. If I'm a player, then I try to limit myself to a few times a campaign. Why not just ''ask'' him to rebuild the character? Magic flux at the end of the session, he gets hit (because he's walking innate magic and so makes a sort of lightning rod for random magical discharge), scrambles his spheres, tell him to pick some new ones and leave the dead where they are, if that's what he's doing. He keeps his character, gets an interesting new twist on him, doesn't have to rebuild from scratch, and won't Zombinator (though that's still beyond me how that's even an issue). Even switching Bone for Pyre would fix it. --[[Special:Contributions/173.245.56.215|173.245.56.215]] 12:29, 29 November 2011 (MST)<br />
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All right, I won't delete the debate, wait a second, how is this a debate? I just asked a question. But that aside, I think your right, I will talk to, and get the player in question to switch his bone sphere. I also enjoyed the conversation too, but too clarify the zombinator deal, it just makes gameplay really slow and painful, you try playing a whole army of undead. --[[User:Warkan|Warkan]] 16:27, 29 November 2011 (MST)<br />
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:Already have. I was working on skeleton #4 when the light went on that it slowed play down too much for other people. So if I have occasion to play a necromancer, I aim for one big undead minion, who I switch out/upgrade as convenient. Anyways. Pyre would be good synergy for the Fire sphere, as it lets them pass by fire resistance but not immunity. That's just how I'd do it, however. --[[Special:Contributions/173.245.56.215|173.245.56.215]] 23:04, 29 November 2011 (MST)<br />
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Thanks again. Seeing that this discussion has sort of veered of topic a little bit, how bout we continue it on my talk page?. When im a player I personally like to play a cleric/Unearthed Arcana wizard/pale master, i usually pick a creature like ogre, troll, or my favorite, grey render when I get high enough level. :) --[[User:Warkan|Warkan]] 19:49, 30 November 2011 (MST)<br />
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==1-20==<br />
See: Tome Knight. This, the Fiendish Brute, and the Tome Knight are all short base classes. From [[Tome of Fiends (3.5e Sourcebook)|The Tome of Fiends]] and [[Races of War (3.5e Sourcebook)|Races of War]]. The full set includes the [[Tome of Necromancy (3.5e Sourcebook)|Tome of Necromancy]] and the [[Dungeonomicon (3.5e Sourcebook)|Dungeonomicon]]. You're welcome to read and discuss. I'd be interested in hearing any sort of objections you can raise to the structure here other than "no one else does it like that". --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 20:55, 2 April 2012 (MDT)<br />
:Actually these three classes I was going to suggest moving to PrC since 10 level and 5 level classes are common there. Also the abilities they gain seem more in line with a prestige class than with a base class (i.e. I know of no other prescidence for giving someone complete immunity to a magic effect at level 1.) [[User:Tivanir|Tivanir]] 07:19, 3 April 2012 (MDT)<br />
::Depends entirely on the magic effect in question. The most hardcore one is Acheron's Immunity to Compulsions (and +10 to Intimidate later on), but none of them are gamebreaking. <br />
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::''(actually, level 1 doesn't count on that or any point on game balance. Level 1 just falls apart. A ''greatsword'' is broken at level 1, since it's a one-hit kill on anything else at that level. Come to that, a longsword and rolling 18 for Str is pretty breaking, too. And even that pales against the might that is Color Spray. Level 1 just really proves nothing, other than the numbers are really low and combat is really swingy. But I digress)''<br />
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::In any case, they're base classes. They were written by some guys tried something different with D&D rules and I'm honestly glad they did. Trying something different with the rules should be encouraged in the Homebrew section, otherwise it'll fill up with stuff like Catgirl races and classes whose shtick is "Uses a scythe somewhat better than other people" and "A lightweight fighter based on speed rather than armor". There's nothing wrong with those, really. Most people writing homebrew end up trying to make something like them at some point. But most homebrew doesn't question a few base assumptions, like "Prestige Classes can only come into play after level 5", and, in my opinion, suffers for it. So keep these base classes right where they are, where they were ''deliberately'' placed after the people who wrote them sat down to really think about the game and its base assumptions and which of them just don't do that much for the quality of the game. I don't agree with all their answers and ideas, but I like that they took the effort. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 09:39, 3 April 2012 (MDT)</div>Genowhirlhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Conduit_of_the_Lower_Planes_(3.5e_Class)&diff=557902Talk:Conduit of the Lower Planes (3.5e Class)2012-04-03T02:56:29Z<p>Genowhirl: whoops, link fix</p>
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<div>== Rating ==<br />
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<s>'''Power - 5/5'''</s> I give this class a 5 out of 5 because this class is extremely magic oriented, and matches other spellcasting class realitively well. &rarr; [[User:Rithaniel|<span style=color:Gray; -moz-border-radius-topleft:25px; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px">Rith</span>]]<sup> [[User talk:Rithaniel|<span style=color:black; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px; -moz-border-radius-topleft:20px">(talk)</span>]]</sup> 23:36, 24 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:This only has 10 levels... That needs to be explained first. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 00:24, 13 November 2009 (MST)<br />
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'''Wording - 5/5''' I give this class a 5 out of 5 because this class is easily understood and, even where it gets a little confusing, it's explained more in depth. &rarr; [[User:Rithaniel|<span style=color:Gray; -moz-border-radius-topleft:25px; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px">Rith</span>]]<sup> [[User talk:Rithaniel|<span style=color:black; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px; -moz-border-radius-topleft:20px">(talk)</span>]]</sup> 23:36, 24 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
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<s>'''[[Help:Standards and Formatting (DnD Guideline)|Formatting]] - 2/5'''</s> I give this class a 2 out of 5 because massive portions of the preload are missing and interwiki linking is lacking. &rarr; [[User:Rithaniel|<span style=color:Gray; -moz-border-radius-topleft:25px; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px">Rith</span>]]<sup> [[User talk:Rithaniel|<span style=color:black; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px; -moz-border-radius-topleft:20px">(talk)</span>]]</sup> 23:36, 24 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:Added the missing preload stuff, as well as a level 1 Starting package and a sample encounter/NPC. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 11:32, 28 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::Well, there's still some interwiki linking to be dealt with, but thats really minor, so I'll give it a '''5/5'''. &rarr; [[User:Rithaniel|<span style=color:Gray; -moz-border-radius-topleft:25px; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px">Rith</span>]]<sup> [[User talk:Rithaniel|<span style=color:black; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px; -moz-border-radius-topleft:20px">(talk)</span>]]</sup> 17:11, 28 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
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'''Flavor - 5/5''' I give this class a 5 out of 5 because a fiend is more than an individual. &rarr; [[User:Rithaniel|<span style=color:Gray; -moz-border-radius-topleft:25px; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px">Rith</span>]]<sup> [[User talk:Rithaniel|<span style=color:black; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px; -moz-border-radius-topleft:20px">(talk)</span>]]</sup> 23:36, 24 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
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== Clarification Request ==<br />
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Um... just wondering, why does the Conduit of the lower Planes spontaneously learn 6 levels of sorcery at level 10? my brother and i love this class to death, I've made a half-dozen variants out of it, but it just doesn't seem to make sense that you take ten levels of one class that uses a very unorthodox method of magic and then at the end instantly gain the rough equivalent of 6 levels of another spellcasting class in addition to the wide variety of magic that one may possess from progressing through the class itself. Can anyone give reason as to why the Conduit of the Lower Planes should have such magical prowess? {{Unsigned|67.175.172.216|00:16, 13 November 2009 (MDT)}}<br />
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:And why does this class only have 10 levels? --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 00:23, 13 November 2009 (MST)<br />
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:Probably because that's four levels lower than a level-appropriate effect. As in, if the conduit had a cohort, and the cohort had his own sorceror cohort, the Conduit's casting would be equal with that. That class feature is, in fact, inferior in most ways to the Leadership feat. If you used Leadership to get a cohort, he'd be 2 levels lower and have his own actions to cast the spells; that only advantage is your own personal versatility. The way the D&D power scaling works, being two levels below something else is hard. Being four levels means you could very, very easily die. Or, put it this way. You're level ten. '''''Bing!''''' You just scored 6 levels of Sorceror, at level 10.<br />
:Congratulation, you can cast Fireball and Lightning Bolt and Major Image (admittedly decent effects). People who took sorceror for 10 levels are now casting stuff like Cloudkill and Wall of Force and Telekinesis, with better DCs and a higher-caster level effect; it's a nice supplement but it's honestly not THAT overpowered. Someone with ten levels of wizard has more spells known and will get 6th-level spells next level. <br />
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:And it has 10 levels because of a variety of reasons, GD. For one thing, it's the 'magic' Fiend class for using the Tome of Fiends mechanics/feats. Its intense progression in the Spheres means it's scoring a Sphere every other level; the True Fiend only get them every four. <br />
:I'm sure you know this, but the way a sphere's casting works...Taking a sphere once means you can use each spell-like in the Sphere once a day. Taking it again bumps you up to 3/day. Taking it a third time makes it at-will. <br />
:Continuing the progression, making a 20-level Conduit class means making it easy for someone to score at-will casting for three different spheres over the course of the game. People may not believe it, but F&K do know when something is crazy-go-nuts, so they made it short to limit it getting even crazier at high-level play. As it is, you can max one sphere out already, but it does make you take a hit to your versatility. If you want to advance in the theme, you can either take Sorceror and rely on the scaling spheres to shore that up, or you could take True Fiend and continue gaining Spheres and all the other Fiendish traits at much reduced rate. Or you could go Fiendish Brute and become both magical *and* ugly.--[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 00:43, 13 November 2009 (MST)<br />
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== Typo ==<br />
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From the page:<br />
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Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Conduits of the Lower Planes are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, as well as the whip, the scourge, and the dire flail. '''True Fiends''' are proficient with light armor but not with shields of any kind.<br />
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== Rating == <br />
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<s>'''Power - 5/5'''</s> I give this class a 5 out of 5 because though there are more powerful classes out there, this give a wide flexibility if you think about what you are going to do instead of just barging in. Balanced rather than just an overpowered brute. --[[Special:Contributions/50.47.244.73|50.47.244.73]] 12:37, 9 August 2011 (MDT)<br />
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:This only has 10 levels... That needs to be explained first. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 19:10, 10 August 2011 (MDT)<br />
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'''Wording - 5/5''' I give this class a 5 out of 5 because it's just so awesome --[[Special:Contributions/50.47.244.73|50.47.244.73]] 12:37, 9 August 2011 (MDT)<br />
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'''[[Help:Standards and Formatting (DnD Guideline)|Formatting]] - 5/5''' I give this class a 5 out of 5 because easy to read, easy to understand, and helps you understand the drive behind your character. --[[Special:Contributions/50.47.244.73|50.47.244.73]] 12:37, 9 August 2011 (MDT)<br />
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'''Flavor - 5/5''' I give this class a 5 out of 5 because this class is delicious. In the book it even says that you just have to be descended from something from the lower planes, I take that as kind of like the idea that sorcerers get their power from a distant draconic bloodline. It's something that can add to the backstory, how it overshadowed your family driving you to your adventure etc. --[[Special:Contributions/50.47.244.73|50.47.244.73]] 12:37, 9 August 2011 (MDT)<br />
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== Powerhouse? ==<br />
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I think that the conduit should actually be a prestige class with quite high requirements because A) its extremely easy to trump the "Has to originate from one of the lower planes" rule, all you have to do is say is "a hundred generations ago, my female relative had a child with a succubus and the bloodline has watered down to me. I am 99.9% human and .1% succubus" and you would pass the requirement. B) A level seven conduit, can take expert sphere access “Fire” and basic sphere access “Bone” with petitioner immunities baator, would be able to throw a fireball at his feet while surrounded by goblins and boom! instant zombie army. Is it just me or is that a little overpowered?<br />
--[[User:Warkan|Warkan]] 21:58, 22 November 2011 (MST)<br />
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:Not particularly. In that particular instance, they'd be fairly low-level zombies and would serve mainly as speedbumps to level-appropriate opposition, if that (considering flying monsters start growing more prevalent around then). Now, it's something ''interesting'' and means you make your own minion squad (yaaaay minions!) but it isn't game breaking and you've spent a ton of your character options just to do one trick which isn't that great. Anything you could mass-produce by the time you can slam Fireballs down all day just isn't really a threat to challenges on your level (but admittedly makes village-raiding fun), and anything really good as a zombie is so close to your level that killing it with fireballs will take a while (they don't do that much damage compared to monster HP, honestly) and be sort of hazardous. And even then, zombies sort of bite as a critter. So it's handy to keep one or two stronger ones around, if you can work out how to make them keep up (Portable hole? Bottomed with Black Sand from Sandstorm, maybe, so they heal between uses?) but you won't be able to keep more than one or two around and your turnover will be sort of high, considering how much abuse they'll take. I mean, level 7 is when Chimeras, flesh golems, and other facebreakers kick in. Kytons, aka, "Hope you like chain-rape!" showed up a level earlier. --[[Special:Contributions/173.245.56.215|173.245.56.215]] 00:00, 24 November 2011 (MST)<br />
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Still, there are tons of ways to improve undead out there (Prestige classes, spells, templates, and feats, etc.). On another note, the bone sphere's ability states that "all creature of up to 10 HD killed by one of your spell like abilities rises as a zombie" so, if you just finished killing five ogres, you just got yourself an amazing bodyguard, they have movement 40ft (8 squares) and quite a bit of hit points and the fact that the character can kill flying creatures also gives him an advantage (Very young dragons can carry a normal character). <br />
I guess at a certain level the ability evens out, but you would still have a huge army to throw at your enemies. Example: A level 18 conduit/wizard, has killed about 150 creatures in his career, he is facing a Balor, there is a 1/20 chance of a critical hit per attack, times 150, times how many rounds each zombie is going to last, the Balor is going to lose quite a bit of health before the actual character comes into play.<br />
--[[User:Warkan|Warkan]] 21:31, 28 November 2011 (MST)<br />
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:In that extremely-unlikely-to-occur hypothetical, sure. But I think you're getting too set on the hypothetical there (and the Balor can just [[SRD:Greater Teleport|teleport]] the heck out of range. As many times as he wants. And Quickened [[SRD:Telekinesis|telekinesis]] three-times a day, at-will regardless. And [[SRD:Implosion|implosion]] and...you get the idea. And I hope you can handle a DC 27 Will Save by that point, because this is going to turn into "HELLO, MIND-SLAVE!" if you can't). <br />
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:In practice, a conduit isn't going to have 150 zombies there. Transport is a pain, he's going to lose a lot of them along the way to level 18 (using zombies to kill things means you go through a lot of zombies) and table goodwill is going to go down drastically if someone tries to roll 150 times. By the time he can wax 5 ogres by himself to score a bodyguard with his spell-likes, he's so hardcore he just needs them around to look pretty and be a meatshield because he's stronger than they are. <br />
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:And it's debatable whether he would be responsible for killing most things he's encountered. A really, really good approach to wizards' (and to an extent, druids') spells is to use Sleep or Color Spray and let the other players handle the shanking. Or Solid Fog and then Black Tentacles--which admittedly will eventually kill stuff. EVENTUALLY he'll get junk like Acid Cloud and Finger of Death and Phantasmal Killer which lets him just slay something, but it's going to be a while. <br />
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:Past level 7, anything you can zombie up isn't a huge increase in character power or gamebreaking. Well, okay, if you want to jump through a ton of hoops, sure, you could work something out but you could probably find stuff just as strong with less effort. (Solid Fog + Black Tentacles. Venom Sphere plus that Tome of Fiends breath weapon feat on Finger of Death if you're feeling froggy. If you're high enough level, you make a horizontal [[SRD:Gate]] to the Negative Energy plane under someone's feet, so they fall into it and get Free Vacation In The Negative Energy Plane (no save). Or you could drop him into Pelor's living room and hope Pelor's up for some light exercise...Anyway.) <br />
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:Your concerns, while well-meaning, aren't really justified and the situations you cite require really, really, ''really'' unlikely circumstances. Any player who can make them work should also be smart enough to find something else to have fun with. I don't see any problems especial to the Conduit that can't be done with any other casting-heavy class. Your concerns are over the system in general, not the class. (Honestly, I'd be a lot more afraid of a Cleric with a ton of undead rather than a Conduit with a big pile).--[[Special:Contributions/173.245.56.215|173.245.56.215]] 23:49, 28 November 2011 (MST)<br />
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Thanks for helping. I owe an explanation now that the matter is settled. I am a dungeon master with four level 7 players, one of them a conduit. But as time goes on the conduit character is really making game play hard, the other players have all talked to me about it but i didn't know what to do. Now I do, I will just get them to have a relatively high cleric at the end of the of the next adventure and make the conduit fall through a certain gate to the negative energy plane, the player is just going to have to make a new character a equal level.<br />
Thanks again! <br />
I will be deleting the Powerhouse? question tommorow at 6:00 pm (MST) --[[User:Warkan|Warkan]] 09:19, 29 November 2011 (MST)<br />
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:If you do, I'm restoring it. I enjoyed the debate. That aside, you say the other players have talked to you, but have you talked to the player in question? The Negative Energy Plane Vacation is ''too'' heavy-handed to nail on a player out of the blue because you don't like the character shtick, especially on people who've never thought of it. I just don't bring it up as a DM unless they already know about it. If I'm a player, then I try to limit myself to a few times a campaign. Why not just ''ask'' him to rebuild the character? Magic flux at the end of the session, he gets hit (because he's walking innate magic and so makes a sort of lightning rod for random magical discharge), scrambles his spheres, tell him to pick some new ones and leave the dead where they are, if that's what he's doing. He keeps his character, gets an interesting new twist on him, doesn't have to rebuild from scratch, and won't Zombinator (though that's still beyond me how that's even an issue). Even switching Bone for Pyre would fix it. --[[Special:Contributions/173.245.56.215|173.245.56.215]] 12:29, 29 November 2011 (MST)<br />
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All right, I won't delete the debate, wait a second, how is this a debate? I just asked a question. But that aside, I think your right, I will talk to, and get the player in question to switch his bone sphere. I also enjoyed the conversation too, but too clarify the zombinator deal, it just makes gameplay really slow and painful, you try playing a whole army of undead. --[[User:Warkan|Warkan]] 16:27, 29 November 2011 (MST)<br />
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:Already have. I was working on skeleton #4 when the light went on that it slowed play down too much for other people. So if I have occasion to play a necromancer, I aim for one big undead minion, who I switch out/upgrade as convenient. Anyways. Pyre would be good synergy for the Fire sphere, as it lets them pass by fire resistance but not immunity. That's just how I'd do it, however. --[[Special:Contributions/173.245.56.215|173.245.56.215]] 23:04, 29 November 2011 (MST)<br />
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Thanks again. Seeing that this discussion has sort of veered of topic a little bit, how bout we continue it on my talk page?. When im a player I personally like to play a cleric/Unearthed Arcana wizard/pale master, i usually pick a creature like ogre, troll, or my favorite, grey render when I get high enough level. :) --[[User:Warkan|Warkan]] 19:49, 30 November 2011 (MST)<br />
<br />
<br />
==1-20==<br />
See: Tome Knight. This, the Fiendish Brute, and the Tome Knight are all short base classes. From [[Tome of Fiends (3.5e Sourcebook)|The Tome of Fiends]] and [[Races of War (3.5e Sourcebook)|Races of War]]. The full set includes the [[Tome of Necromancy (3.5e Sourcebook)|Tome of Necromancy]] and the [[Dungeonomicon (3.5e Sourcebook)|Dungeonomicon]]. You're welcome to read and discuss. I'd be interested in hearing any sort of objections you can raise to the structure here other than "no one else does it like that". --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 20:55, 2 April 2012 (MDT)</div>Genowhirlhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Conduit_of_the_Lower_Planes_(3.5e_Class)&diff=557901Talk:Conduit of the Lower Planes (3.5e Class)2012-04-03T02:55:17Z<p>Genowhirl: </p>
<hr />
<div>== Rating ==<br />
<br />
<s>'''Power - 5/5'''</s> I give this class a 5 out of 5 because this class is extremely magic oriented, and matches other spellcasting class realitively well. &rarr; [[User:Rithaniel|<span style=color:Gray; -moz-border-radius-topleft:25px; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px">Rith</span>]]<sup> [[User talk:Rithaniel|<span style=color:black; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px; -moz-border-radius-topleft:20px">(talk)</span>]]</sup> 23:36, 24 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:This only has 10 levels... That needs to be explained first. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 00:24, 13 November 2009 (MST)<br />
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'''Wording - 5/5''' I give this class a 5 out of 5 because this class is easily understood and, even where it gets a little confusing, it's explained more in depth. &rarr; [[User:Rithaniel|<span style=color:Gray; -moz-border-radius-topleft:25px; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px">Rith</span>]]<sup> [[User talk:Rithaniel|<span style=color:black; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px; -moz-border-radius-topleft:20px">(talk)</span>]]</sup> 23:36, 24 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
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<s>'''[[Help:Standards and Formatting (DnD Guideline)|Formatting]] - 2/5'''</s> I give this class a 2 out of 5 because massive portions of the preload are missing and interwiki linking is lacking. &rarr; [[User:Rithaniel|<span style=color:Gray; -moz-border-radius-topleft:25px; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px">Rith</span>]]<sup> [[User talk:Rithaniel|<span style=color:black; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px; -moz-border-radius-topleft:20px">(talk)</span>]]</sup> 23:36, 24 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:Added the missing preload stuff, as well as a level 1 Starting package and a sample encounter/NPC. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 11:32, 28 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::Well, there's still some interwiki linking to be dealt with, but thats really minor, so I'll give it a '''5/5'''. &rarr; [[User:Rithaniel|<span style=color:Gray; -moz-border-radius-topleft:25px; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px">Rith</span>]]<sup> [[User talk:Rithaniel|<span style=color:black; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px; -moz-border-radius-topleft:20px">(talk)</span>]]</sup> 17:11, 28 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
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'''Flavor - 5/5''' I give this class a 5 out of 5 because a fiend is more than an individual. &rarr; [[User:Rithaniel|<span style=color:Gray; -moz-border-radius-topleft:25px; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px">Rith</span>]]<sup> [[User talk:Rithaniel|<span style=color:black; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px; -moz-border-radius-topleft:20px">(talk)</span>]]</sup> 23:36, 24 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
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== Clarification Request ==<br />
<br />
Um... just wondering, why does the Conduit of the lower Planes spontaneously learn 6 levels of sorcery at level 10? my brother and i love this class to death, I've made a half-dozen variants out of it, but it just doesn't seem to make sense that you take ten levels of one class that uses a very unorthodox method of magic and then at the end instantly gain the rough equivalent of 6 levels of another spellcasting class in addition to the wide variety of magic that one may possess from progressing through the class itself. Can anyone give reason as to why the Conduit of the Lower Planes should have such magical prowess? {{Unsigned|67.175.172.216|00:16, 13 November 2009 (MDT)}}<br />
<br />
:And why does this class only have 10 levels? --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 00:23, 13 November 2009 (MST)<br />
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:Probably because that's four levels lower than a level-appropriate effect. As in, if the conduit had a cohort, and the cohort had his own sorceror cohort, the Conduit's casting would be equal with that. That class feature is, in fact, inferior in most ways to the Leadership feat. If you used Leadership to get a cohort, he'd be 2 levels lower and have his own actions to cast the spells; that only advantage is your own personal versatility. The way the D&D power scaling works, being two levels below something else is hard. Being four levels means you could very, very easily die. Or, put it this way. You're level ten. '''''Bing!''''' You just scored 6 levels of Sorceror, at level 10.<br />
:Congratulation, you can cast Fireball and Lightning Bolt and Major Image (admittedly decent effects). People who took sorceror for 10 levels are now casting stuff like Cloudkill and Wall of Force and Telekinesis, with better DCs and a higher-caster level effect; it's a nice supplement but it's honestly not THAT overpowered. Someone with ten levels of wizard has more spells known and will get 6th-level spells next level. <br />
<br />
:And it has 10 levels because of a variety of reasons, GD. For one thing, it's the 'magic' Fiend class for using the Tome of Fiends mechanics/feats. Its intense progression in the Spheres means it's scoring a Sphere every other level; the True Fiend only get them every four. <br />
:I'm sure you know this, but the way a sphere's casting works...Taking a sphere once means you can use each spell-like in the Sphere once a day. Taking it again bumps you up to 3/day. Taking it a third time makes it at-will. <br />
:Continuing the progression, making a 20-level Conduit class means making it easy for someone to score at-will casting for three different spheres over the course of the game. People may not believe it, but F&K do know when something is crazy-go-nuts, so they made it short to limit it getting even crazier at high-level play. As it is, you can max one sphere out already, but it does make you take a hit to your versatility. If you want to advance in the theme, you can either take Sorceror and rely on the scaling spheres to shore that up, or you could take True Fiend and continue gaining Spheres and all the other Fiendish traits at much reduced rate. Or you could go Fiendish Brute and become both magical *and* ugly.--[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 00:43, 13 November 2009 (MST)<br />
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== Typo ==<br />
<br />
From the page:<br />
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Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Conduits of the Lower Planes are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, as well as the whip, the scourge, and the dire flail. '''True Fiends''' are proficient with light armor but not with shields of any kind.<br />
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== Rating == <br />
<br />
<s>'''Power - 5/5'''</s> I give this class a 5 out of 5 because though there are more powerful classes out there, this give a wide flexibility if you think about what you are going to do instead of just barging in. Balanced rather than just an overpowered brute. --[[Special:Contributions/50.47.244.73|50.47.244.73]] 12:37, 9 August 2011 (MDT)<br />
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:This only has 10 levels... That needs to be explained first. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 19:10, 10 August 2011 (MDT)<br />
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'''Wording - 5/5''' I give this class a 5 out of 5 because it's just so awesome --[[Special:Contributions/50.47.244.73|50.47.244.73]] 12:37, 9 August 2011 (MDT)<br />
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'''[[Help:Standards and Formatting (DnD Guideline)|Formatting]] - 5/5''' I give this class a 5 out of 5 because easy to read, easy to understand, and helps you understand the drive behind your character. --[[Special:Contributions/50.47.244.73|50.47.244.73]] 12:37, 9 August 2011 (MDT)<br />
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'''Flavor - 5/5''' I give this class a 5 out of 5 because this class is delicious. In the book it even says that you just have to be descended from something from the lower planes, I take that as kind of like the idea that sorcerers get their power from a distant draconic bloodline. It's something that can add to the backstory, how it overshadowed your family driving you to your adventure etc. --[[Special:Contributions/50.47.244.73|50.47.244.73]] 12:37, 9 August 2011 (MDT)<br />
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== Powerhouse? ==<br />
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I think that the conduit should actually be a prestige class with quite high requirements because A) its extremely easy to trump the "Has to originate from one of the lower planes" rule, all you have to do is say is "a hundred generations ago, my female relative had a child with a succubus and the bloodline has watered down to me. I am 99.9% human and .1% succubus" and you would pass the requirement. B) A level seven conduit, can take expert sphere access “Fire” and basic sphere access “Bone” with petitioner immunities baator, would be able to throw a fireball at his feet while surrounded by goblins and boom! instant zombie army. Is it just me or is that a little overpowered?<br />
--[[User:Warkan|Warkan]] 21:58, 22 November 2011 (MST)<br />
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:Not particularly. In that particular instance, they'd be fairly low-level zombies and would serve mainly as speedbumps to level-appropriate opposition, if that (considering flying monsters start growing more prevalent around then). Now, it's something ''interesting'' and means you make your own minion squad (yaaaay minions!) but it isn't game breaking and you've spent a ton of your character options just to do one trick which isn't that great. Anything you could mass-produce by the time you can slam Fireballs down all day just isn't really a threat to challenges on your level (but admittedly makes village-raiding fun), and anything really good as a zombie is so close to your level that killing it with fireballs will take a while (they don't do that much damage compared to monster HP, honestly) and be sort of hazardous. And even then, zombies sort of bite as a critter. So it's handy to keep one or two stronger ones around, if you can work out how to make them keep up (Portable hole? Bottomed with Black Sand from Sandstorm, maybe, so they heal between uses?) but you won't be able to keep more than one or two around and your turnover will be sort of high, considering how much abuse they'll take. I mean, level 7 is when Chimeras, flesh golems, and other facebreakers kick in. Kytons, aka, "Hope you like chain-rape!" showed up a level earlier. --[[Special:Contributions/173.245.56.215|173.245.56.215]] 00:00, 24 November 2011 (MST)<br />
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Still, there are tons of ways to improve undead out there (Prestige classes, spells, templates, and feats, etc.). On another note, the bone sphere's ability states that "all creature of up to 10 HD killed by one of your spell like abilities rises as a zombie" so, if you just finished killing five ogres, you just got yourself an amazing bodyguard, they have movement 40ft (8 squares) and quite a bit of hit points and the fact that the character can kill flying creatures also gives him an advantage (Very young dragons can carry a normal character). <br />
I guess at a certain level the ability evens out, but you would still have a huge army to throw at your enemies. Example: A level 18 conduit/wizard, has killed about 150 creatures in his career, he is facing a Balor, there is a 1/20 chance of a critical hit per attack, times 150, times how many rounds each zombie is going to last, the Balor is going to lose quite a bit of health before the actual character comes into play.<br />
--[[User:Warkan|Warkan]] 21:31, 28 November 2011 (MST)<br />
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:In that extremely-unlikely-to-occur hypothetical, sure. But I think you're getting too set on the hypothetical there (and the Balor can just [[SRD:Greater Teleport|teleport]] the heck out of range. As many times as he wants. And Quickened [[SRD:Telekinesis|telekinesis]] three-times a day, at-will regardless. And [[SRD:Implosion|implosion]] and...you get the idea. And I hope you can handle a DC 27 Will Save by that point, because this is going to turn into "HELLO, MIND-SLAVE!" if you can't). <br />
<br />
:In practice, a conduit isn't going to have 150 zombies there. Transport is a pain, he's going to lose a lot of them along the way to level 18 (using zombies to kill things means you go through a lot of zombies) and table goodwill is going to go down drastically if someone tries to roll 150 times. By the time he can wax 5 ogres by himself to score a bodyguard with his spell-likes, he's so hardcore he just needs them around to look pretty and be a meatshield because he's stronger than they are. <br />
<br />
:And it's debatable whether he would be responsible for killing most things he's encountered. A really, really good approach to wizards' (and to an extent, druids') spells is to use Sleep or Color Spray and let the other players handle the shanking. Or Solid Fog and then Black Tentacles--which admittedly will eventually kill stuff. EVENTUALLY he'll get junk like Acid Cloud and Finger of Death and Phantasmal Killer which lets him just slay something, but it's going to be a while. <br />
<br />
:Past level 7, anything you can zombie up isn't a huge increase in character power or gamebreaking. Well, okay, if you want to jump through a ton of hoops, sure, you could work something out but you could probably find stuff just as strong with less effort. (Solid Fog + Black Tentacles. Venom Sphere plus that Tome of Fiends breath weapon feat on Finger of Death if you're feeling froggy. If you're high enough level, you make a horizontal [[SRD:Gate]] to the Negative Energy plane under someone's feet, so they fall into it and get Free Vacation In The Negative Energy Plane (no save). Or you could drop him into Pelor's living room and hope Pelor's up for some light exercise...Anyway.) <br />
<br />
:Your concerns, while well-meaning, aren't really justified and the situations you cite require really, really, ''really'' unlikely circumstances. Any player who can make them work should also be smart enough to find something else to have fun with. I don't see any problems especial to the Conduit that can't be done with any other casting-heavy class. Your concerns are over the system in general, not the class. (Honestly, I'd be a lot more afraid of a Cleric with a ton of undead rather than a Conduit with a big pile).--[[Special:Contributions/173.245.56.215|173.245.56.215]] 23:49, 28 November 2011 (MST)<br />
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Thanks for helping. I owe an explanation now that the matter is settled. I am a dungeon master with four level 7 players, one of them a conduit. But as time goes on the conduit character is really making game play hard, the other players have all talked to me about it but i didn't know what to do. Now I do, I will just get them to have a relatively high cleric at the end of the of the next adventure and make the conduit fall through a certain gate to the negative energy plane, the player is just going to have to make a new character a equal level.<br />
Thanks again! <br />
I will be deleting the Powerhouse? question tommorow at 6:00 pm (MST) --[[User:Warkan|Warkan]] 09:19, 29 November 2011 (MST)<br />
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:If you do, I'm restoring it. I enjoyed the debate. That aside, you say the other players have talked to you, but have you talked to the player in question? The Negative Energy Plane Vacation is ''too'' heavy-handed to nail on a player out of the blue because you don't like the character shtick, especially on people who've never thought of it. I just don't bring it up as a DM unless they already know about it. If I'm a player, then I try to limit myself to a few times a campaign. Why not just ''ask'' him to rebuild the character? Magic flux at the end of the session, he gets hit (because he's walking innate magic and so makes a sort of lightning rod for random magical discharge), scrambles his spheres, tell him to pick some new ones and leave the dead where they are, if that's what he's doing. He keeps his character, gets an interesting new twist on him, doesn't have to rebuild from scratch, and won't Zombinator (though that's still beyond me how that's even an issue). Even switching Bone for Pyre would fix it. --[[Special:Contributions/173.245.56.215|173.245.56.215]] 12:29, 29 November 2011 (MST)<br />
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All right, I won't delete the debate, wait a second, how is this a debate? I just asked a question. But that aside, I think your right, I will talk to, and get the player in question to switch his bone sphere. I also enjoyed the conversation too, but too clarify the zombinator deal, it just makes gameplay really slow and painful, you try playing a whole army of undead. --[[User:Warkan|Warkan]] 16:27, 29 November 2011 (MST)<br />
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:Already have. I was working on skeleton #4 when the light went on that it slowed play down too much for other people. So if I have occasion to play a necromancer, I aim for one big undead minion, who I switch out/upgrade as convenient. Anyways. Pyre would be good synergy for the Fire sphere, as it lets them pass by fire resistance but not immunity. That's just how I'd do it, however. --[[Special:Contributions/173.245.56.215|173.245.56.215]] 23:04, 29 November 2011 (MST)<br />
<br />
Thanks again. Seeing that this discussion has sort of veered of topic a little bit, how bout we continue it on my talk page?. When im a player I personally like to play a cleric/Unearthed Arcana wizard/pale master, i usually pick a creature like ogre, troll, or my favorite, grey render when I get high enough level. :) --[[User:Warkan|Warkan]] 19:49, 30 November 2011 (MST)<br />
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<br />
==1-20==<br />
See: Tome Knight. This, the Fiendish Brute, and the Tome Knight are all short base classes. From [[Tome of Fiends (3.5e Sourcebook|The Tome of Fiends]] and [[Races of War (3.5e Sourcebook|Races of War]]. The full set includes the [[Tome of Necromancy (3.5e Sourcebook)|Tome of Necromancy]] and the [[Dungeonomicon (3.5e Sourcebook)|Dungeonomicon]]. You're welcome to read and discuss. I'd be interested in hearing any sort of objections you can raise to the structure here other than "no one else does it like that". --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 20:55, 2 April 2012 (MDT)</div>Genowhirlhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Conduit_of_the_Lower_Planes_(3.5e_Class)&diff=557900Conduit of the Lower Planes (3.5e Class)2012-04-03T02:54:27Z<p>Genowhirl: remove delete notice (reason not valid)</p>
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<div><br />
{{stub|Missing epic information.}}<br />
{{Protection Against IP Edits}}<br />
{{DnD Base Class Infobox<br />
|img=Dark-warrior cropped resized.jpg<br />
|imgloc=top<br />
|imgsize=270px<br />
|imgcaption=Badass Check: natural 20.<br />
|rating_power=<br />
|raters_power=<br />
|rating_wording=5<br />
|raters_wording=2<br />
|rating_formatting=5<br />
|raters_formatting=2<br />
|rating_flavor=5<br />
|raters_flavor=2<br />
|status=Complete<br />
|editing=Spelling and grammar only<br />
|type=Bad Guy, Spontaneous Spellcasting<br />
|desc=A new class-based way to create fiends and characters from the lower planes.<br />
}}<br />
<br />
==Conduit of the Lower Planes==<br />
<br />
''"My powers are more than enough to deal with the likes of you!"''<br />
<br />
A fiend is more than an individual; he is a representative of a particular brand of evil, and that role carries power with it. To become a Conduit of the Lower Planes is to embrace that role and become a living pathway by which the energies of the Lower Planes can be made manifest. Raw magical power is the result of this process, and a fiend that walks this route refines his mastery of his innate mystical arts to a terrible degree. <br />
<br />
===Making a Conduit of the Lower Planes===<br />
<br />
'''Abilities:''' The Conduit of the Lower Planes primarily performs spellcasting via an unusual mechanic, [[Tome of Fiends (DnD Other)/Fiends with Style#Fiendish Spheres|Spheres]].<br />
<br />
'''Races:''' The Conduit of the Lower Planes is only available to creatures with a plane of origin in the Lower Planes. Creatures from the prime material plane whose ancestors were from a Lower Plane may take this class.<br />
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'''Alignment:''' A character must be non-good to take any levels in Conduit of the Lower Planes. Nothing happens to a Conduit of the Lower Planes if he becomes Good, save that he must look elsewhere for class advancing.<br />
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'''Starting Gold:''' 4d4x10 gp (100 gold)<br />
<br />
'''[[SRD:Race Descriptions#Starting Age|Starting Age]]:''' As [[SRD:Wizard|Wizard]].<br />
{| class="{{d20}}"<br />
|+<br />
<div>{{#anc:Table: The Conduit of the Lower Planes}}</div><br />
Hit Die: d6<br />
|-<br />
! rowspan="2" | Level<br />
! rowspan="2" | [[BAB|Base<br/>Attack Bonus]]<br />
! colspan="3" | [[SRD:Saving Throw|Saving Throw]]s<br />
! rowspan="2" | Special<br />
|-<br />
! [[SRD:Saving Throw#Fortitude|Fort]] || [[SRD:Saving Throw#Reflex|Ref]] || [[SRD:Saving Throw#Will|Will]]<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|1st|| class="left" | +0 || +0 || +0 || +2<br />
| class="left" | [[Tome of Fiends (DnD Other)/Fiends with Style#Fiendish Spheres|Spheres]], [[#Petitioner Immunities|Petitioner Immunities]]<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|2nd|| class="left" | +1 || +0 || +0 || +3<br />
| class="left" | [[#Enhanced Sphere Access|Enhanced Sphere Access]]<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|3rd|| class="left" | +2 || +1 || +1 || +3<br />
| class="left" | [[#Sphere|Sphere]]<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|4th||class="left" | +3 || +1 || +1 || +4<br />
| class="left" | [[#Bonus Feat|Bonus Feat]]<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|5th||class="left" | +3 || +1 || +1 || +4<br />
| class="left" | [[#Sphere|Sphere]]<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|6th||class="left" | +4 || +2 || +2 || +5<br />
| class="left" | [[#Petitioner Skills|Petitioner Skills]]<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|7th||class="left" | +5 || +2 || +2 || +5<br />
| class="left" | [[#Sphere|Sphere]]<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|8th||class="left" | +6/+1 || +2 || +2 || +6<br />
| class="left" | [[#Bonus Feat|Bonus Feat]]<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|9th||class="left" | +6/+1 || +3 || +3 || +6<br />
| class="left" | [[#Sphere|Sphere]]<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|10th||class="left" | +7/+2 || +3 || +3 || +7<br />
| class="left" | [[#Magical Training|Magical Training]]<br />
|}<br />
'''Class Skills (2 + [[SRD:Intelligence|Int]] modifier per level, &times;4 at 1st level)'''<br/><br />
[[Concentration]] ([[Con]]), [[Craft]] ([[Int]]), [[Diplomacy]] ([[Cha]]), [[Handle Animal]]([[Cha]]), [[Knowledge]] (arcana) ([[Int]]), [[Knowledge]] (history) ([[Int]]), [[Knowledge]] (religion) ([[Int]]), [[Knowledge]] (the planes) ([[Int]]), [[Profession]] ([[Wis]]), and [[Spellcraft]] ([[Int]]).<br />
<br />
====Class Features====<br />
<br />
'''Weapon and Armor Proficiency:''' Conduits of the Lower Planes are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, as well as the whip, the scourge, and the dire flail. True Fiends are proficient with light armor but not with shields of any kind.<br />
<br />
'''{{#anc:Sphere}}:''' The Conduit of the Lower Planes gains basic access to a [[Tome of Fiends (DnD Other)/Fiends with Style#Fiendish Spheres|Sphere]] at every odd numbered level. If the Conduit of the Lower Planes selects a sphere that he already has basic access to, he upgrades it to advanced access. If he already had advanced access, he gains expert access.<br />
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'''{{#anc:Petitioner Immunities}}:''' A Conduit of the Lower Planes gains his power from a specific lower plane, and is protected by the nature of that plane:<br />
* Pandemonium: Sonic Immunity <br />
* The Abyss: Immunity to Electricity <br />
* Carceri: Immunity to Cold <br />
* Hades: Immunity to Fear and Morale Effects. <br />
* Gehenna: Immunity to Acid <br />
* Baator: Immunity to Fire <br />
* Acheron: Immunity to [Compulsion] effects. <br />
<br />
'''{{#anc:Enhanced Sphere Access}}:''' At 2nd level, the Conduit of the Lower Planes gains extra uses of the spell-like abilities that he gains from his Spheres. The Conduit of the Lower Planes gains a number of extra uses of any spell-like ability equal to half the number his character level exceeds the minimum character level to use the spell-like ability (rounded up). So if the Conduit of the Lower Planes has a character level of 4, he would gain 1 extra use of a spell-like ability that is granted by one of his spheres at character level 3 and 2 extra uses of any spell-like from one of his spheres with a minimum level of 1. Upon gaining this ability, the Conduit of the Lower Planes immediately gains a number of extra feats that must all have the [Fiend] tag equal to the number of spheres he has expert access to. If he ever gains expert access to another sphere, he also gains an extra [Fiend] feat.<br />
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'''{{#anc:Bonus Feat}}:''' At 4th level, the Conduit of the Lower Planes gains a bonus feat. This feat may be any [[DnD Fiend Feats|[Fiend]]], [[DnD Monstrous Feat|[Monstrous]]], or [Item Creation] feat, and the Conduit of the Lower Planes must meet the prerequisites. He gains another such feat at level 8.<br />
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'''{{#anc:Petitioner Skills}}:''' A Conduit of the Lower Planes gains his power from a specific lower plane, and at 6th level gains abilities from the nature of that plane (this must be the same plane as was chosen at 1st level):<br />
* Pandemonium: +10 to Listen checks. <br />
* The Abyss: +10 bonus to Survival checks. <br />
* Carceri: +10 bonus to Bluff checks. <br />
* Hades: +10 bonus to Hide checks. <br />
* Gehenna: +10 bonus to Climb checks, if he doesn't already have a climb speed, he gains one equal to half his normal ground speed (bonuses to Climb from having a Climb speed gained in this way would be included in the +10 bonus) <br />
* Baator: +10 bonus to Disguise checks. <br />
* Acheron: +10 bonus to Intimidate checks. <br />
<br />
'''{{#anc:Magical Training}}:''' At 10th level, the Conduit of the Lower Planes is able to cast magic in a more traditional fashion. He has the spells known and spells per day of a 6th level Sorcerer. The Conduit of the Lower Planes has a caster level of 10, and can take classes that improve spellcasting in order to gain additional spellcasting ability. <br />
<br />
==== Epic <-class name-> ====<br />
<br />
{| class="{{d20}}"<br />
|+ class="epic" |<br />
<div>{{#anc:Table: The Epic <-class name->}}</div><br />
Hit Die: d<-Die size for Hit Die-><br />
|-<br />
! Level !! Special<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
| 21st || class="left" | <-any improvements to class features gained at this level, including any bonus feats-><br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
| 22nd || class="left" | <-any improvements to class features gained at this level, including any bonus feats-><br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
| 23rd || class="left" | <-any improvements to class features gained at this level, including any bonus feats-><br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
| 24th || class="left" | <-any improvements to class features gained at this level, including any bonus feats-><br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
| 25th || class="left" | <-any improvements to class features gained at this level, including any bonus feats-><br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
| 26th || class="left" | <-any improvements to class features gained at this level, including any bonus feats-><br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
| 27th || class="left" | <-any improvements to class features gained at this level, including any bonus feats-><br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
| 28th || class="left" | <-any improvements to class features gained at this level, including any bonus feats-><br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
| 29th || class="left" | <-any improvements to class features gained at this level, including any bonus feats-><br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
| 30th || class="left" | <-any improvements to class features gained at this level, including any bonus feats-><br />
|-<br />
| colspan="42" class="skill" |<br />
<-number of skill points-> + [[SRD:Intelligence|Int]] modifier skill points per level.<br />
|}<br />
<br />
'''<-existing class feature->:''' <-how this class feature increases or accumulates at epic levels-><br />
<br />
'''<-another existing class feature->:''' <-how this class feature increases or accumulates at epic levels-><br />
<br />
<-Lather, rinse...-><br />
<br />
<-... repeat.-><br />
<br />
'''{{#anc: Bonus Feats }}:''' The epic <-class name-> gains a bonus feat (selected from the list of epic <-class name-> bonus feats) every <-number of feats per level-> levels after 20th.<br />
<br />
''Epic <-class name-> Bonus Feat List:'' <-list of bonus epic feats->.<br />
<br />
====Human Conduit of the Lower Planes Starting Package====<br />
<br />
'''Weapons:''' [[Morningstar]]<br />
<br />
'''Skill Selection:''' [[Concentration]] 2, [[Diplomacy]] 3, [[Knowledge]] (Arcana) 1, [[Knowledge]] (Planes 1), [[Knowledge]] (Religion) 1, [[Spellcraft]] 4 ranks.<br />
<br />
'''Sphere:''' Sleep. This gives Deep Slumber as a Spell-like ability once a day.<br />
<br />
{| class="{{d20}}"<br />
|-<br />
! class="left" | Skill || Ranks || Ability || Armor<br/>Check<br/>Penalty<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
| class="left" | [[Concentration]] || 2 || [[Con]] || "&mdash;"<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
| class="left" | [[Diplomacy]] || 3 || [[Cha]] || "&mdash;"<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
| class="left" | [[Knowledge]] (Arcana, Planes, Religion) || 1 rank each|| [[Int]] || "&mdash;"<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
| class="left" | [[Spellcraft]] || 4 || [[Int]] || "&mdash;"<br />
|}<br />
<br />
'''Feat:''' Product of Infernal Dalliance<br />
<br />
'''Bonus Feats:''' Improved Initiative<br />
<br />
'''Gear:''' Studded Leather Armor, clothes, rations, bedroll, other essentials<br />
<br />
'''Gold:''' 50 GP<br />
<br />
===Campaign Information===<br />
<br />
====Playing a Conduit====<br />
<br />
'''Religion:''' Much as the [[Fiendish Brute (DnD Class)|Fiendish Brutes]] don't worry about religion, neither do Conduits.<br />
<br />
'''Other Classes:''' Paladins and goodly clerics do *not* like Conduits of the Lower Planes? Why? They're a walking pipeline to the magic of the Lower Planes! Aside from that, they could get along well with casters in general, because of their common interest in magic.<br />
<br />
'''Combat:''' Conduits throw around spell-like abilities, but they have 3/4 BAB, so they can mix it up in melee a little bit; they are more certain to hit with a Touch Attack than the usual Wizard of Sorceror.<br />
<br />
'''Advancement:''' The other two Fiendish classes, [[Fiendish Brute (DnD Class)|Fiendish Brute]] and [[True Fiend (DnD Class)|True Fiend]] would help increase the physical abilities of the Conduit. As a side note, if a Conduit specializes in the Fire and Pyre spheres, he can't go wrong with taking [[Fire Mage (DnD Class)|Fire Mage]]. Also, the Conduit can pick up some extra spellcasting as sorceror.<br />
<br />
====Conduits in the World====<br />
<br />
{{quote|Your blood will freeze until you die, and then your body will stand up and obey my will|orig=Hakor, Human Conduit of the Lower Planes}}<br />
<br />
Conduits of the Lower Planes are walking lines to infernal magic. Despite that, what they do with that magic is up to them. <br />
<br />
'''Daily Life:''' Conduits don't have to have a set routine, unlike wizards and clerics and druids. So it's pretty much a crap shoot.<br />
<br />
'''Notables:''' None I can think of.<br />
<br />
'''Organizations:''' Conduits aren't any more inclined to band together than other classes, but should a group of them cooperate, they could unleash frightening amounts of magic--waves of fire, sheets of ice, hordes of frighteneing apparitions.<br />
<br />
'''NPC Reactions:''' Conduits do not look particularly fiendish (unless they've taken fiend feats), so they get along with commoners fairly well. Still, good religious people do not like them, the prejudiced so-and-so's. Casters are likely to express interest in the abilities shown by the conduits.<br />
<br />
====Conduit Lore====<br />
<br />
Characters with ranks in [[Knowledge]] (Planes) can research Conduits to learn more about them. When a character makes a skill check, read or paraphrase the following, including information from lower DCs.<br />
<br />
{| class="{{d20}}"<br />
|+ [[Knowledge]] (Planes)<br />
! DC || class="left" | Result<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
| 5 || class="left" | Some people channel fiendish magic<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
| 10 || class="left" | The Conduits to the lower planes have powerful natural magic and some of the traits of their linked plane.<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
| 15 || class="left" | Beware. Just because a Conduit uses a power doesn't mean he can't do it to you again. And again. And again.<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
| 20 || class="left" | The natural affinity for elements means a Fiendish magic user is greatly in tune with some of the universe's energies, and able to use them more effectively than even a strong wizard in some cases.<br />
|}<br />
<br />
====Conduits in the Game====<br />
<br />
Conduits bring spell-like abilities and weird bonuses to a party. They can also score some free item creation feats to get equipment cheaper. Or they could use the feats to go fiendish, with claws and slime trails and swirling clouds of fire.<br />
<br />
'''Adaptation:''' You could easily make this a kind of Sorceror class tailored to whatever theme you want--Good, Evil, Law, Chaos. You just have to come up with new Spheres and new bonuses to get.<br />
<br />
'''Sample Encounter:''' Hakor the Bonechiller<br />
<br />
''EL 9:'' Hakor is depopulating towns with his spell-like abilities to make a zombie army. Stop him on the Kyserian Plains!<br />
<br />
{{Stat Block 2<br />
|name=Hakor<br />
|al=CE |size=Medium |type=Humanoid (Human and Cold)<br />
|init=+4 |listen=-1 |spot=-1<br />
|ac=15 |touch=10|flat=15<br />
|hp=50 |hd=9d6 + 18<br />
|fort=+3 |ref=+3 |will=+6<br />
|spd=30 feet<br />
|bab=+6/+1 |grp=+8<br />
|slad=CL 9th<br />
|str=14 |dex=10 |con=14 |int=12 |wis=8 |cha=16<br />
|sq=Immunity to Cold, Intimidate as a free action once a round<br />
|feats=[[Product of Infernal Dalliance (DnD Feat)|Product of Infernal Dalliance]], [[Fiend Cabalist (DnD Feat)|Fiend Cabalist]], [[Improved Initiative]], [[Craft Wondrous Item]], [[Craft Magic Arms and Armor]], [[Elemental Aura (DnD Feat)|Elemental Aura (Cold)]], [[Heighten Spell-like Ability (DnD Feat)|Heighten Spell-like Ability]]<br />
|skills=[[Concentration]] 12, [[Craft]] (Weaponsmithing) 12, [[Intimidate]] 12, 12 points in miscellaneous [[Craft]].<br />
|poss=+1 Mithril Chain Shirt, +1 Freezing Heavy Mace, a grab-bag of potions (Bull's Strength, Bear's Endurance mostly), lots and lots and lots of 1-HD human [[Zombie|zombies]], with a few other races represented as well.<br />
}}<br />
<br />
Hakor is an overly ambitious Conduit who wants to make an empire of undead, with him ruling the top. He's a big man--over six feet--and his hair and clothing is covered in frost; you can't even tell his hair is black. He also has unnaturally bright blue eyes--but they're different shades of blue. His Elemental Aura ensure he's surrounded by a constant swirl of ice crystals (unless he has a reason to turn it off).<br />
<br />
He has quite a lot of low-HD [[zombie|zombies]] from depopulating villages. He also made his own weapon. To get to him, you'd have to hack your way through a lot of low-level zombies. But melee is tricky, because he does 4d6 cold damage to those within a ten-foot radius (every round at the start of his turn).<br />
<br />
He has the Bone, Cold, and Terror Spheres from the Tome of fiends, giving him the ability to turn anyone killed by his spell-likes into a zombie. He also has the [Cold] subtype and can make an intimidate check once a round as a free action. He took Cold and Terror twice, giving them to him 3/day--and then his second level of Conduit lets him use his lower-level spell-likes more often (See Below)<br />
<br />
Hakor is meant to be a quickie little adventure--very simple.<br />
<br />
Here's his Spheres and the number of times a day he can use them.<br />
<br />
=====Bone=====<br />
'''Special:''' Any creature of 10 HD or less killed by one of your spell-like abilities rises as a [[Zombie|zombie]] under your control, with no control limits.<br />
<br />
Level - Benefits<br />
* 1 - ''[[SRD:Command Undead|command undead]]'' (5/day)<br />
* 3 - ''[[SRD:Desecrate|desecrate]]'' (4/day)<br />
* 5 - ''[[SRD:Animate Dead|animate dead]]''(3/day)<br />
* 7 - ''black sand'' ([[Sandstorm]]) (2/day)<br />
* 9 - ''summon undead v'' ([[Libris Mortis|LM]]) (1/day)<br />
<br />
<br />
=====Cold=====<br />
'''Special:''' You gain the [Cold] Subtype.<br />
<br />
Level - Benefits<br />
* 1 - ''[[SRD:Cone of Cold|cone of cold]]'' (7/day)<br />
* 3 - ''creeping cold'' ([[Complete Divine|CDiv]]) (6/day)<br />
* 5 - ''[[SRD:Ice Storm|ice storm]]'' (5/day)<br />
* 7 - ''[[SRD:Wall of Ice|wall of ice]]'' (4/day)<br />
* 9 - ''[[SRD:Freezing Sphere|freezing sphere]]'' (3/day)<br />
<br />
=====Terror=====<br />
'''Special:''' Gain Intimidate as a class skill, and may make an Intimidate check to Demoralize Opponent as a free action once a round. <br />
<br />
Level - Benefits<br />
* 1 - ''[[SRD:Cause Fear|cause fear]]'' (7/day)<br />
* 3 - ''[[SRD:Scare|scare]]'' (6/day)<br />
* 5 - ''[[SRD:Halt Undead|halt undead]]'' (5/day)<br />
* 7 - ''[[SRD:Fear|fear]]'' (4/day)<br />
* 9 - ''[[SRD:Phantasmal Killer|phantasmal killer]]'' (3/day)<br />
<br />
===See Also===<br />
* [[Tome of Fiends (DnD Other)/Fiends with Style#Fiendish Feats|Fiendish feats]]<br />
* [[Tome of Fiends (DnD Other)/Fiends with Style#Fiendish Spheres|Spheres]]<br />
* [[:Category:Fiend Feat]]<br />
* [[:Category:Monstrous Feat]]<br />
<br />
<br />
----<br />
{{DnD Base Classes Breadcrumb}}<br/><br />
{{3.5e Tome of Fiends Breadcrumb}} &rarr; [[Tome of Fiends (3.5e Sourcebook)/Fiends with Class|Fiends with Class]]<br />
[[Category:DnD]]<br />
[[Category:3.5e]]<br />
[[Category:User]]<br />
[[Category:Class]]<br />
[[Category:Base Class]]<br />
[[Category:Bad Guy]]<br />
[[Category:Spontaneous Spellcasting]]<br />
[[Category:Tome]]<br />
[[Category:Tome of Fiends Sourcebook]]</div>Genowhirlhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Seeker_of_the_Lost_Wizard_Traditions_(3.5e_Prestige_Class)&diff=548632Talk:Seeker of the Lost Wizard Traditions (3.5e Prestige Class)2012-01-29T20:50:26Z<p>Genowhirl: Undo revision 548631 by Genowhirl (talk) Revert formatting for something easier to read</p>
<hr />
<div>i put in a edit to change 50gp and 2xp to 50gp and 4xp due to the fact that they are now materials for 100 gp worth of magic items Ewokdruid 13:11, 10 January 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: im just questioning the whole "super uber-ima chunk of stone" thing at seventh level, i have a feeling that that could just be plain old broken. like my dryer last month, i have a feeling that that could be limited alittle more. but who knows. sometimes dryers are suposed to leak water. just saying.--[[User:Fatkidwithnocandy|Typ(tip)]] 00:03, 11 January 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::It's a class designed for wizards (a tier one class). The ability, while potent, is not so much better than other abilities offered by other Wizards of the Coast prestige classes, such as the Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil. -- [[User:Jota|Jota]] 01:35, 11 January 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
At second level, you get a seriously improved version of an epic metamagic feat (Enhance Spell), without having to increase the spell level by 4. I believe that can be considered more broken than Unbreachable Stone Defense. -- Frodosquall.<br />
<br />
:And I contend that it ''cannot'' be considered so, because it really just isn't it.. Because uncapped don't let you do anything more than what you can already do. They just make sure fireball always does a d6 per caster level--so at level 16, you're doing another d6 of damage with Lightning Bolt. <br />
:Whether or not that metamagic feat is epic is immaterial--Epic has a power level all over the darn place, even moreso than pre-level 20 D&D. Seriously, at level 5, the fighter who's spent the feats to get Whirlwind Attack gets to make an attack roll to have a ''chance'' at hitting all enemies within 5 feet. ''If'' he succeeds on his attack roll, he then has to roll to see how much damage he does. A wizard, by contrast, gets to say '''"Oh, nice one, Bjorn. You hit them and took a little damage off of three of them. What do you have that's better than that? What? Nothing?! Whatever--I cast fireball. All the orcs within 20 feet of that one with the eyepatch, including him, roll Reflex or take 5d6 damage. Oh, look, the big one made his save--and took 2d6 damage anyway, like a hit from a greatsword made of fire. Huh? Oh, Bjorn, that's just one spell that had no prior investment. It's my only fire spell--I thought about Burning Hands before, but it's a little lame. Before this level, all I did was cast enchantments and illusions and once I summoned a snake to put it down the cleric's robes for a joke. What? Oh, yeah, I can do this all day. I bought a wand of fireballs in town so I wouldn't have to prepare nothing but this, in case we need another snake or to put something to sleep. It wasn't even very much. Do you want to borrow it? What? You don't know how to work it. Eh, whatever, I'll loan it to the Rogue--who just shivved an orc for almost as much damage as you did to those three orcs combined."''' <br />
:Something having 'epic' in its name or description proves nothing and means nothing by itself. Or, to put it another way: Any spell that uncapped magic would help (fireball, lightning bolt, etc) is already worse than doing something like Acid Fog or Black Tentacles or Plane Shift (or Sleep, or Color Spray, or Major Image, or Summon Monster). So it really doesn't make a difference other than letting direct-damage spells phase out of usefulness ''slightly'' less slowly. Unbreachable defense is way better than Uncapped Magic. Of course, there's spell schools -filled- with stuff better than Uncapped Magic. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 13:48, 29 January 2012 (MST)</div>Genowhirlhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Seeker_of_the_Lost_Wizard_Traditions_(3.5e_Prestige_Class)&diff=548631Talk:Seeker of the Lost Wizard Traditions (3.5e Prestige Class)2012-01-29T20:49:15Z<p>Genowhirl: </p>
<hr />
<div>i put in a edit to change 50gp and 2xp to 50gp and 4xp due to the fact that they are now materials for 100 gp worth of magic items Ewokdruid 13:11, 10 January 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: im just questioning the whole "super uber-ima chunk of stone" thing at seventh level, i have a feeling that that could just be plain old broken. like my dryer last month, i have a feeling that that could be limited alittle more. but who knows. sometimes dryers are suposed to leak water. just saying.--[[User:Fatkidwithnocandy|Typ(tip)]] 00:03, 11 January 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::It's a class designed for wizards (a tier one class). The ability, while potent, is not so much better than other abilities offered by other Wizards of the Coast prestige classes, such as the Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil. -- [[User:Jota|Jota]] 01:35, 11 January 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
At second level, you get a seriously improved version of an epic metamagic feat (Enhance Spell), without having to increase the spell level by 4. I believe that can be considered more broken than Unbreachable Stone Defense. -- Frodosquall.<br />
<br />
:And I contend that it ''cannot'' be considered so, because it really just isn't it.. Because uncapped don't let you do anything more than what you can already do. They just make sure fireball always does a d6 per caster level--so at level 16, you're doing another d6 of damage with Lightning Bolt. <br />
:Whether or not that metamagic feat is epic is immaterial--Epic has a power level all over the darn place, even moreso than pre-level 20 D&D. Seriously, at level 5, the fighter who's spent the feats to get Whirlwind Attack gets to make an attack roll to have a ''chance'' at hitting all enemies within 5 feet. ''If'' he succeeds on his attack roll, he then has to roll to see how much damage he does. A wizard, by contrast, gets to say ''"Oh, nice one, Bjorn. You hit them and took a little damage off of three of them. What do you have that's better than that? What? Nothing?! Whatever--I cast fireball. All the orcs within 20 feet of that one with the eyepatch, including him, roll Reflex or take 5d6 damage. Oh, look, the big one made his save--and took 2d6 damage anyway, like a hit from a greatsword made of fire. Huh? Oh, Bjorn, that's just one spell that had no prior investment. It's my only fire spell--I thought about Burning Hands before, but it's a little lame. Before this level, all I did was cast enchantments and illusions and once I summoned a snake to put it down the cleric's robes for a joke. What? Oh, yeah, I can do this all day. I bought a wand of fireballs in town so I wouldn't have to prepare nothing but this, in case we need another snake or to put something to sleep. It wasn't even very much. Do you want to borrow it? What? You don't know how to work it. Eh, whatever, I'll loan it to the Rogue--who just shivved an orc for almost as much damage as you did to those three orcs combined."'' <br />
:Something having 'epic' in its name or description proves nothing and means nothing by itself. Or, to put it another way: Any spell that uncapped magic would help (fireball, lightning bolt, etc) is already worse than doing something like Acid Fog or Black Tentacles or Plane Shift (or Sleep, or Color Spray, or Major Image, or Summon Monster). So it really doesn't make a difference other than letting direct-damage spells phase out of usefulness ''slightly'' less slowly. Unbreachable defense is way better than Uncapped Magic. Of course, there's spell schools -filled- with stuff better than Uncapped Magic. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 13:48, 29 January 2012 (MST)</div>Genowhirlhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Seeker_of_the_Lost_Wizard_Traditions_(3.5e_Prestige_Class)&diff=548630Talk:Seeker of the Lost Wizard Traditions (3.5e Prestige Class)2012-01-29T20:48:41Z<p>Genowhirl: </p>
<hr />
<div>i put in a edit to change 50gp and 2xp to 50gp and 4xp due to the fact that they are now materials for 100 gp worth of magic items Ewokdruid 13:11, 10 January 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: im just questioning the whole "super uber-ima chunk of stone" thing at seventh level, i have a feeling that that could just be plain old broken. like my dryer last month, i have a feeling that that could be limited alittle more. but who knows. sometimes dryers are suposed to leak water. just saying.--[[User:Fatkidwithnocandy|Typ(tip)]] 00:03, 11 January 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::It's a class designed for wizards (a tier one class). The ability, while potent, is not so much better than other abilities offered by other Wizards of the Coast prestige classes, such as the Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil. -- [[User:Jota|Jota]] 01:35, 11 January 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
At second level, you get a seriously improved version of an epic metamagic feat (Enhance Spell), without having to increase the spell level by 4. I believe that can be considered more broken than Unbreachable Stone Defense. -- Frodosquall.<br />
<br />
:And I contend that it ''cannot'' be considered so, because it really just isn't it.. Because uncapped don't let you do anything more than what you can already do. They just make sure fireball always does a d6 per caster level--so at level 16, you're doing another d6 of damage with Lightning Bolt. <br />
:Whether or not that metamagic feat is epic is immaterial--Epic has a power level all over the darn place, even moreso than pre-level 20 D&D. Seriously, at level 5, the fighter who's spent the feats to get Whirlwind Attack gets to make an attack roll to have a ''chance'' at hitting all enemies within 5 feet. ''If'' he succeeds on his attack roll, he then has to roll to see how much damage he does. A wizard, by contrast, gets to say '''"Oh, nice one, Bjorn. You hit them and took a little damage off of three of them. What do you have that's better than that? What? Nothing?! Whatever--I cast fireball. All the orcs within 20 feet of that one with the eyepatch, including him, roll Reflex or take 5d6 damage. Oh, look, the big one made his save--and took 2d6 damage anyway, like a hit from a greatsword made of fire. Huh? Oh, Bjorn, that's just one spell that had no prior investment. It's my only fire spell--I thought about Burning Hands before, but it's a little lame. Before this level, all I did was cast enchantments and illusions and once I summoned a snake to put it down the cleric's robes for a joke. What? Oh, yeah, I can do this all day. I bought a wand of fireballs in town so I wouldn't have to prepare nothing but this, in case we need another snake or to put something to sleep. It wasn't even very much. Do you want to borrow it? What? You don't know how to work it. Eh, whatever, I'll loan it to the Rogue--who just shivved an orc for almost as much damage as you did to those three orcs combined."''' <br />
:Something having 'epic' in its name or description proves nothing and means nothing by itself. Or, to put it another way: Any spell that uncapped magic would help (fireball, lightning bolt, etc) is already worse than doing something like Acid Fog or Black Tentacles or Plane Shift (or Sleep, or Color Spray, or Major Image, or Summon Monster). So it really doesn't make a difference other than letting direct-damage spells phase out of usefulness ''slightly'' less slowly. Unbreachable defense is way better than Uncapped Magic. Of course, there's spell schools -filled- with stuff better than Uncapped Magic. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 13:48, 29 January 2012 (MST)</div>Genowhirlhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Philosoraptor_(3.5e_Creature)&diff=546827Talk:Philosoraptor (3.5e Creature)2012-01-14T23:52:59Z<p>Genowhirl: </p>
<hr />
<div>Note: The stats for the philosoraptor are mostly equivalent to those of a similar creature from the SRD (3.5 ed.), with only some changes made from the base creature ([[SRD:Deinonychus]], before the errata were applied). The Philosophy ability is the only potentially unbalancing factor. With that ability adjusted appropriately to suit your needs, this is usable in a campaign in the manner that any Awakened Animal would be. [[User:Silverkin|Silverkin]] 20:00, 11 September 2011 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:It'd honestly make a fun cohort or even a PC. Needs to list what languages it understands, though. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 16:52, 14 January 2012 (MST)</div>Genowhirlhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Fire_Mage_(3.5e_Class)&diff=537934Talk:Fire Mage (3.5e Class)2011-10-15T17:00:08Z<p>Genowhirl: </p>
<hr />
<div>== Comment ==<br />
<br />
WOW... [[User:Dino|Dino]] 08:51, 8 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:I actually know the story behind this one. Someone mentioned they had a new player to their DnD group, and the guy wanted to play a blaster-type character. But the person had some concerns about the character being unable to keep up with the rest of the group, who were fairly experienced. So Frank took some time and whipped up the Fire Mage for them, as something easy to play and which can run itself. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 09:34, 8 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
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== Rating == <br />
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'''Power - 5/5''' I give this class a 5 out of 5 because it is well balanced (perhaps a little bit on the weak side) and synergies its abilities in a nice way. --[[User:Aarnott|Aarnott]] 10:34, 16 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
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'''Wording - 5/5''' I give this class a 5 out of 5 because there are no serious grammar/spelling infractions to report. --[[User:Aarnott|Aarnott]] 10:34, 16 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
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<s>'''[[Help:Standards and Formatting (DnD Guideline)|Formatting]] - 4/5'''</s> I give this class a 4 out of 5 because it doesn't implement the extra preload stuff. It might be the preload that needs to be fixed and not the class, however. --[[User:Aarnott|Aarnott]] 10:34, 16 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:Rating negated; see also [[Talk:DnD Base Classes#Some Rating Nonsense Needs to Stop]]. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 12:05, 22 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
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<s>'''Flavor - 5/5'''</s> I give this class a 5 out of 5 because it fits the role of a blaster mage quite well without having to worry about actual spell slots and such. Unique to fill a niche, yet generic enough to diversify. --[[User:Aarnott|Aarnott]] 10:34, 16 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:Rating negated; see also [[Talk:DnD Base Classes#Some Rating Nonsense Needs to Stop]]. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 12:05, 22 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::Why was this part of the rating negated? [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 13:01, 22 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
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== Rating == <br />
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'''Power - 5/5''' I give this class a 5 out of 5 because not over or under powered, a great class to use in game for the average player --[[User:67.181.101.32|67.181.101.32]] 23:24, 8 August 2009 (MDT)<br />
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'''Wording - 3/5''' I give this class a 3 out of 5 because I would just clarify a few points for this class, very good job though --[[User:67.181.101.32|67.181.101.32]] 23:24, 8 August 2009 (MDT)<br />
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'''[[Help:Standards and Formatting (DnD Guideline)|Formatting]] - 5/5''' I give this class a 5 out of 5 because this was easy to convert iver into an actual character and met all v.3.5 standards --[[User:67.181.101.32|67.181.101.32]] 23:24, 8 August 2009 (MDT)<br />
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'''Flavor - 4.5/5''' I give this class a 4.5 out of 5 because very good ideas but not quite what I would call a 5, still very good class --[[User:67.181.101.32|67.181.101.32]] 23:24, 8 August 2009 (MDT)<br />
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== Level Cap ==<br />
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Could you add more levels plz. Cause other than that this class is awesome. {{Unsigned|71.55.253.247|20:42, 10 December 2009 (MST)}}<br />
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:See [[Races of War (3.5e Sourcebook)/Warriors with Class#Base_Classes|here]] as to reasoning behind the reduced number of class levels. -- [[User:Jota|Jota]] 23:07, 10 December 2009 (MST)<br />
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::Classes need to be 20 levels so they, not only follow D&D rules, but also go into epic level. Who cares if the character is not the same &mdash; characters change; it's called gaining levels. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 23:11, 10 December 2009 (MST)<br />
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:::No, they don't ''need'' to be 20 levels. None of the groups I've played with have ever considered dealing with Epic's rules weirdness worth the payoff, and none of the games reached that high. The class is a good class for a new player to help them learn the mechanics and let them kick butt without requiring a lot of system mastery, so it does what it was designed to do. For other things, like the Knight, there's PrCs either written or possible to let them continue. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 23:36, 10 December 2009 (MST)<br />
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::::I thought their was a rule where you need a Base class to have 20 levels and a Prestige Class to have 10 levels in order to qualify for epic levels? But that rule only mentions entry into epic levels, not a necessity of amount of levels required for a class. Take paragon classes for example? --[[User:Jay Freedman|Jay Freedman]] 23:42, 10 December 2009 (MST)<br />
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:::::Glad to hear certain groups you have played with do not reach epic level; that's irrelevant though. In D&D classes have 20 levels. That's what we are talking about. Prestige classes are, of course, different in both rules, epic, epic entry, and non. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 23:43, 10 December 2009 (MST)<br />
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::::::May I point out the amazing simplicity and virtue of just ignoring that rule since it doesn't actually do anything for the game these days? Just like XP rules. It's marvelous how much things smooth out if the party levels up when the DM says they do. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 23:45, 10 December 2009 (MST)<br />
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:::::::Nope. D&D Wiki needs a structure and that is based of D&D. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 23:46, 10 December 2009 (MST)<br />
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::::::::Actually, second thought, I am in error there. It's a good houserule, but the D&D wiki is for normal D&D unless said otherwise. But this is, by Frank's own admission when he wrote this, an otherwise. I don't see what's to gain by making an issue over an intro class being an anomaly when it gets to last five levels of D&D. It fulfills its design goals, it holds its own in a game, it's fun to play. But, then, I've always preferred reason over logic. Logic does get thrown into a snarl when it hits an anomaly. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 23:58, 10 December 2009 (MST)<br />
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:::::::::I was wondering who has the balls to edit one of Frank's classes? I most certainly would never edit one of his classes. Would you? --[[User:Jay Freedman|Jay Freedman]] 00:00, 11 December 2009 (MST)<br />
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::::::::::Oh, I'm not saying this class is going to get deleted or anything. All I am saying is that this class does not meet D&D Wiki's goals for a class. I.e. "''This page is incomplete and/or lacking flavor.''" implying for D&D Wiki and which area &mdash; completeness. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 00:04, 11 December 2009 (MST)<br />
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:::::::::::I don't see anything that says a base class must have 20 levels. I won't argue that 20 levels is typical, but after glancing through the PHB I saw nothing that would suggest a player must be able to play up to, and beyond, level 20, without having to multiclass. I see no reason to mark this class as incomplete. It's complete in my eyes. --[[User:Badger|Badger]] 21:24, 5 July 2010 (UTC)<br />
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== Edit war ==<br />
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There's got to be some compromise here. If this page uses some sort of house rules, then link to them and remove the wikify tag. Otherwise, it doesn't make sense to revert a user for their good-faith effort at bringing this class up to minimum standards for this wiki. I don't know who this "Frank and K" is (are?), but I've seen that name around here enough to know that they are venerated users and their work is just short of divine. However, this is a wiki. If Frank and K creates something on this website, it is no longer their property. It's unfortunate, but that's part of the agreement you make every time you sumbit anything to (almost) any wiki.<br />
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So instead of fruitless edit wars, let's actually try and be productive here. [[User:Jazzman831|Jazz]][[User talk:Jazzman831|Man]] 15:49, 1 May 2010 (UTC)<br />
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:I was wondering when someone would get around to asking. Well, okay, go check the 3.5 Homebrew sourcebooks for Tome of Necromancy, Tome of Fiends, Dungeonomicon, and Races of War. They were written by two guys--Frank and Keith--as spot fixes for some of the knottier parts of D&D rules. The F&K classes around here are (mostly) copied from those, so it does not make sense for them to be out in the Base and Prestige class lists in a different form from the original. Check 'im out if you want to. In any case, this class was written up as an introduction to blasting mages to be handed to beginner players. If you notice, it's very self-contained and even though it's strong, it's hard to swing the power significantly one way or another. It works pretty well right as it is, despite (or perhaps ''because of''?) the unorthodox mechanics it uses. Unorthodox mechanics are, however, unorthodox and people often have a knee-jerk reaction to them. I've been keeping an eye on it to make sure no one just jumps in and changes things around because they can't see how the class can be right. If they have any issues with it, I will be glad to discuss it with them here on the talk pages and we can come to a consensus before they jump the gun.<br />
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:If the classes from wiki sourcebooks could be put in a section unto themselves, that might smooth out some of the problems and require less attention all around to this. Speaking of which, the Homebrew Sourcebook page really needs to get cleaned up; it seems to be serving a sort of junk drawer for oddities on the site right now. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 17:54, 1 May 2010 (UTC)<br />
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::I see now that there is a tiiiiny little category way down at the bottom that says "Tome". I haven't read through the Tome material, but it seems like it should be treated separately than the rest of the content. Maybe even give it a different identifier, like we do with campaign settings. If this were labeled "Fire Mage (3.5e Tome Class)", then it would be clear that this is supposed to use different rules. In addition, a Tome Breadcrumb or NavBox should be used so that you can easily tell what rules are meant to be different.<br />
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::Unfortunately, moving pages has been broken for over a month now, and I don't even know if there's a timeline for when it will get fixed. Cleanup is really hard to do if you can't move things around; it's currently messing up some of the things I want to do. In the mean time, if IPs keep changing this page I'll protect it from anonymous edits. [[User:Jazzman831|Jazz]][[User talk:Jazzman831|Man]] 18:21, 1 May 2010 (UTC)<br />
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:::The protect would be very welcome, good sir. As would that category, if the Wiki ever gets straightened out. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 21:17, 1 May 2010 (UTC)<br />
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== Rating == <br />
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'''Power - 5/5''' I give this class a 5 out of 5 because it is over powered --[[Special:Contributions/173.206.96.124|173.206.96.124]] 20:50, 5 July 2010 (UTC)<br />
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'''Wording - 4/5''' I give this class a 4 out of 5 because it is well thought up and makes sense --[[Special:Contributions/173.206.96.124|173.206.96.124]] 20:50, 5 July 2010 (UTC)<br />
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'''[[Help:Standards and Formatting (DnD Guideline)|Formatting]] - 2/5''' I give this class a 2 out of 5 because this class is over powered, its not because it doesnt have a spell limit, it can't do enough damage to require a spell limit. it is over powered because the spells it has are too powerfull for it's levels. I edited this class a while back spaceing out the spells and giving the class 20 levels and it makes a world of difference, also the saves are too high and not evened out in the slightest. --[[Special:Contributions/173.206.96.124|173.206.96.124]] 20:50, 5 July 2010 (UTC)<br />
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'''Flavor - 5/5''' I give this class a 5 out of 5 because you can do alot with a spicy character --[[Special:Contributions/173.206.96.124|173.206.96.124]] 20:50, 5 July 2010 (UTC)<br />
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:5/5 is perfect. If it's overpowered, I don't think you want it to have a perfect power rating. Also, formatting has to do with, uh, formatting, not power rating. [[User:Jazzman831|Jazz]][[User talk:Jazzman831|Man]] 20:52, 5 July 2010 (UTC)<br />
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== Copyright Issue==<br />
just to point out to whoever made this page, the picture used is not a free picture, it is owned and not for reproduction, and it is actually the picture of a time mage, she is the main character of a story. <br />
--this guy! 05:02, 5 july 2010(EST)<br />
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:Is this in fact a copyrighted image? Can you tell us more specifically where the image comes from? We'll remove it if need be. --[[User:Badger|Badger]] 21:25, 5 July 2010 (UTC)<br />
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::Illustration is by the artist Stephan A. McGowan, and he explicitly states "Free to use as your personal desktop. Not to be re-used, redistuributed, cut up and made into things like avis and banners, site layouts, themes, products or any other rape of my work without my expressed, written permission. Watermark will not be removed.", so it should be removed or someone should ask for permission. <br />
::http://budgie.deviantart.com/art/The-Defiant-Yhihre-54966084<br />
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==Recent Edits==<br />
Allright, I know you mean well, but this class was intentionally designed as a newbie-friendly class for people who want to play a blaster, to break them in on area-of-effect, damage types, and other relevant mechanics. Spells-per-day is counter-intuitive to that and adds a lot of bookkeeping that a new player doesn't need. Sure, the Fire Mage is strong, but I can't think of any ways to actually swing its power significantly higher or lower and I know a lot of the usual tricks to look for. It's rather hard to mess a fire mage character up, seeing as how their class features are pretty self-contained, and the at-will abilities means the character can last all day, and the abilities to penetrate fire resistance and immunity means they aren't even stonewalled, so they can contribute even when they're fighting a fire giant or something.. The d6's of damage -looks- high, but remember that 10d6 is about 35 damage on average--and level 10 things tend to have HP well over a hundred. If you want to discuss these, please, let's do it. I enjoy talking things out and seeing another viewpoint. But at least know why the class was written like it is. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 01:24, 9 September 2010 (MDT)<br />
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== Rating == <br />
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'''Power - <<<3>>>/5''' I give this class a <<<3>>> out of 5 because <<<it's not magic based although this would make a great class, as far as fire mages go there are enough fire-based spells and abilities that should be use instead of these. it just seems to be a amalgam of other classes' abilities with the wrd "fire" in front of them.>>> --[[Special:Contributions/65.78.120.236|65.78.120.236]] 11:16, 16 November 2010 (MST)<br />
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'''Wording - <<<5>>>/5''' I give this class a <<<5>>> out of 5 because <<<it's clear and lacks spelling errors>>> --[[Special:Contributions/65.78.120.236|65.78.120.236]] 11:16, 16 November 2010 (MST)<br />
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'''[[Help:Standards and Formatting (DnD Guideline)|Formatting]] - <<<5>>>/5''' I give this class a <<<5>>> out of 5 because <<<it's very easy to read and understand>>> --[[Special:Contributions/65.78.120.236|65.78.120.236]] 11:16, 16 November 2010 (MST)<br />
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'''Flavor - <<<2>>>/5''' I give this class a <<<2>>> out of 5 because <<<you get these abilities separatly with better classes that each work better than this one.>>> --[[Special:Contributions/65.78.120.236|65.78.120.236]] 11:16, 16 November 2010 (MST)<br />
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== Rating == <br />
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'''Power - 6/5''' I give this class a 6 out of 5 because there is no limit to the number of time the caster can do an of the abilities it has. it also has a d8 hit die, which is unheard of in arcane caster classes. as much as i wanted to see a pure fire based mage, this one is to overpowered and will throw game mechanics out of wack. --[[User:Nutcase65|Nutcase65]] 10:09, 15 October 2011 (MDT)<br />
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::This is, as you might surmise, a combat-blaster mage. This class's WHOLE SHTICK is they burn things. Unfortunately, burning things to death takes a while in D&D. The reason all its powers are at-will is because, well, they're going to be at it multiple turns per monster. At-will is not overpowered here, it's ''necessary''. If a class could throw down Color Spray-at will with no HD cap, that's overpowered. Same with Black Tentacles. But evocation and direct HP damage in general actually sucks a combat option compared to things like Entangle, Color Spray, Glitterdust, Solid Fog, and Sickening Cloud. So, yes, you think a class that can use the least combat-effective kinds of spells at-will is overpowered? Hate to see what you think of a level 3 Druid casting Entangled or a Wizard using Sleep on someone. And this throws out mechanics out of whack HOW? It's really a rather self-contained, easy-to-play class. There's not much you can do to mess this class up or swing it higher. Rain of Fire isn't even that bad since at level 15, if a DM's throwing army's worth of junk at players, that's a plot device. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 11:00, 15 October 2011 (MDT)<br />
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'''Wording - <<<Insert Your Rating Here>>>/5''' I give this class a <<<Insert Your Rating Here>>> out of 5 because <<<insert why you gave the rating and how to improve it>>> --[[User:Nutcase65|Nutcase65]] 10:09, 15 October 2011 (MDT)<br />
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'''[[Help:Standards and Formatting (DnD Guideline)|Formatting]] - <<<Insert Your Rating Here>>>/5''' I give this class a <<<Insert Your Rating Here>>> out of 5 because <<<insert why you gave the rating and how to improve it>>> --[[User:Nutcase65|Nutcase65]] 10:09, 15 October 2011 (MDT)<br />
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'''Flavor - <<<Insert Your Rating Here>>>/5''' I give this class a <<<Insert Your Rating Here>>> out of 5 because <<<insert why you gave the rating and how to improve it>>> --[[User:Nutcase65|Nutcase65]] 10:09, 15 October 2011 (MDT)<br />
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:Ok, you can't give something 6/5 (and if you were going for "it's overpowered" then you were looking for -1/5), and you need to complete the rest of the categories. If you just want to discuss the power of the class then don't bother with the rating template. [[User:Jazzman831|Jazz]][[User talk:Jazzman831|Man]] 10:30, 15 October 2011 (MDT)</div>Genowhirlhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Dragoon_(3.5e_Prestige_Class)&diff=537501Talk:Dragoon (3.5e Prestige Class)2011-10-08T23:15:27Z<p>Genowhirl: </p>
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<div>==Comments==<br />
I've been playing Final Fantasy Tactics Advance again. Can you tell? --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 23:42, 13 December 2008 (MST)<br />
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Righto. An explanation may be in order...Aside from making abilities which mimic the classic Jump/Double Jump of the Dragoon, the the rest of the abilities come from Final Fantasy Tactics Advance (or from me thinking about what will help my reflavoring to make them suited to fighting big monsters). <br />
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Dragonbreath might raise some eyebrows, but I ''did'' think it over. I figure that one breath weapon is a notable character power. But getting another flavor of breath weapon that's of equal power and on the same recharge time? Not as big a jump of power. If anything, getting four flavors of Dragonbreath over 10 levels just helps make sure the Dragoon will have an energy type available, against which the enemy has minimal resistance--and that occasionally, the Dragoon can exploit a weakness. The 4 skill points and the Knowledge skills is so the Dragoon can get some Knowledges here and there that let them identify monsters. <br />
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Dragonheart took some thinking, because in Final Fantasy Tactics Advance, it's an ability which activates after the Dragoon is hit--and grants them an Auto-Raise effect; it's extremely powerful and means something with Dragonheart has to be taken out in one hit. That's extremely powerful, so I changed it to a recovery/protective power. I might change the immunity part to a Protection From Evil which works on all alignments. <br />
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Also, I need to do some more tweaking on the Jump--related abilities...Particularly on the bonuses Dragoons get with the Jump Skill. [[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 10:17, 15 December 2008 (MST)<br />
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== I love it! ==<br />
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Will rate in a bit, although I do think the breath weapon may be a little much. -- [[User:Jota|Jota]] 19:08, 24 January 2009 (MST)<br />
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:All righty. Just look over and consider the second paragraph of the explanation and see if that has any bearing on the issues you have with with the breath weapon. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 19:29, 24 January 2009 (MST)<br />
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::I guess topping out at 10d8 makes it fairly balanced. I was thinking it was a 20 level class when I said that, even though in the back of my head I knew it only had 10 levels. Oh, and do prestige classes not come with skills and such? I was looking it over and though I'm certain I would give it high rankings for Power and Flavor (and maybe Wording), it seems a little bare in terms of Formatting. -- [[User:Jota|Jota]] 21:27, 24 January 2009 (MST)<br />
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== Rating == <br />
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'''Power - 4/5''' I give this class a 4 out of 5 because I was looking over it and while I did have some small concerns about it being overpowered, it most certainly isn't underpowered and I don't think the concerns I had about being too strong are really much to fuss over. --[[User:Jota|Jota]] 12:39, 26 January 2009 (MST)<br />
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'''Wording - 3/5''' I give this class a 3 out of 5 because some things are unclear, such at the Jump Attack, which after further reading and careful interpretation indicates that only one attack can be done in a round while jumping, but I originally thought the Dragoon could make 5 Jump Attacks in a round (I know, I'm retarded). Anyway, there was that little confusion and there's a few other small things like capitalization of Dragoon in the middle of sentences (something I'm guilty of as well with my classes which I will have to amend) and Jump Good (should be Jump Well, from an correct English perspective, still seems a little silly either way) that bugged me, too, hence the 3. --[[User:Jota|Jota]] 12:39, 26 January 2009 (MST)<br />
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'''[[Help:Standards and Formatting (DnD Guideline)|Formatting]] - 4/5''' I give this class a 4 out of 5 because everything is correct and well-formatted although it could do with being linked to aspect of itself (abilities, skills, feats, etc.). --[[User:Jota|Jota]] 12:39, 26 January 2009 (MST)<br />
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'''Flavor - 5/5''' I give this class a 5 out of 5 because it's a fantastic adaption of less than fantastic adaption of a fantastic game. >_> Anyway, great interpretation and a good balancing effort, too. It's definitely a character I would be interested in playing as. --[[User:Jota|Jota]] 12:39, 26 January 2009 (MST)<br />
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:I thought my rating would just 'show up.' Is that not the case or did I format it wrong? -- [[User:Jota|Jota]] 12:42, 26 January 2009 (MST)<br />
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::I don't know. You might be able to find the specifics in the Help files...As an explanation the "Jump Good" line is a homage to an episode of Samurai Jack. To summarize, Jack encounters a wild-man who lives in a huge forest with a lot of apes, and Jack teaches the apes how to defend themselves against a roving band of bigger, stronger apes, in exchange for the wild man putting through an intense training program designed to elevate Jack's jumping ability to superhuman levels--as the wild man put it 'Jump good!'. At the end of the episode, Aku snatches something out of Jack's reach and taunts about how Jack can't fly, so he can't reach it. Jack springs at Aku, and Aku, with a priceless expression of shock on his face, asks, "''You can fly?''" and Jack asks, "No! Jump good!" If you'll notice, the quote at the beginning is an homage to that scene, too. Yes, I'm that geeky. Anyway, I keep meaning to come back and clarify some of the wording here, too. I'll look at the areas you suggested and see if I can tart the page up. Thanks for the rating! -- [[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 12:50, 26 January 2009 (MST)<br />
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:::Okay, I do the same thing sometimes (which the homages), I just didn't get the reference. -- [[User:Jota|Jota]] 13:20, 26 January 2009 (MST)<br />
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== Help or Ideas ==<br />
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I have created a class similiar to this (it is based off of the Dragoon/Lancer from Tactics for the PS1) and if you need help with ideas you can look over my class. It is called the [[Lancer (DnD Class)|Lancer]]. Thank you -[[User:Sarrow|Sarrow]] 15:57, 26 January 2009 (MST)<br />
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:I appreciate it. I'll look the lancer over, but apart from polishing it up here and there, I think it's ready. -- [[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 18:19, 26 January 2009 (MST)<br />
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== Copyright Disclaimer ==<br />
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Is that one even necessary on this page? I thought this one has many sources. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 07:40, 14 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:If it comes from a specific source, whether that source is "Final Fantasy Tactics Advance 2" or "The Final Fantasy Series" or even "SquareEnix Products", I believe it needs the disclaimer. Better safe than sorry, really. -[[User:Valentine the Rogue|Valentine the Rogue]] 21:39, 14 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::By "many sources" I meant "many non-FF sources". I'm pretty sure that Final Fantasy doesn't have a monopoly on the idea of the Dragoon. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 21:56, 14 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:::Well Dragonheart is definitely FF and I would argue the inclusion of that alone probably merits the disclaimer for safety's sake. -- [[User:Jota|Jota]] 22:15, 14 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::::The class is Final Fantasy Tactics Advance, with a little bit of Final Fantasy IV thrown in. So, yeah, the disclaimer is in order; I should have thought of it myself.--[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 09:06, 15 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
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== Rating == <br />
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'''Power - 4/5''' I give this class a 4 out of 5 because Dragon breathe is a bit over powered. You could replace it with another ability like doubling you amount of attacks in one turn but all be at your lowest to hit (Penta-Thrustish)and you need a BAB of about 6 for a prerequisite --[[User:76.100.5.91|76.100.5.91]] 23:19, 19 July 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:Dragon breath is hardly overpowered. It's only 4.5/level damage, save for half, and limited uses. [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] 23:22, 19 July 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::And a relatively small cone. It does give sonic damage, though. -- [[User:Jota|Jota]] 23:43, 19 July 2009 (MDT)<br />
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'''Wording - 4/5''' I give this class a 4 out of 5 because it you should have worded double-jump to say you can only do it once per round --[[User:76.100.5.91|76.100.5.91]] 23:19, 19 July 2009 (MDT)<br />
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'''[[Help:Standards and Formatting (DnD Guideline)|Formatting]] - 5/5''' I give this class a 5 out of 5 because it is written just like all the other prestige classes in the official books --[[User:76.100.5.91|76.100.5.91]] 23:19, 19 July 2009 (MDT)<br />
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'''Flavor - 3/5''' I give this class a 3 out of 5 because Dragoons didn't have a breathe weapon and they didn't necessarily attack a monsters face --[[User:76.100.5.91|76.100.5.91]] 23:19, 19 July 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:Thank you for giving a justified and rational set of comments! Have you ever played Final Fantasy Tactics Advance? This class was heavily based on their version of the Dragoon, which got, to whit: Firebreath, Icebreath, Bolt Breath, and a non-elemental version called Bangaa Cry. I figured I'd adapt that, and wouldn't leave out Acid. They also got an ability which let them do triple damage to dragons. I thought about it in the context of a DnD game, where you have more than dragons to work about, and decided to make them a slayer of large monsters. Which would explain spears--so they reach through two or three feet of flesh and hit something important. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 08:40, 20 July 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== Jump Skill ==<br />
The way I'm reading this "Jump Good" ability, it seems too powerful. Not only does it cut the High Jump DC down to 1/4 of what it normally is (Heightx4), but it then cuts it in half again. That means he can jump 10 feet in the air by getting a 5 on his Jump check? When you figure in the 8 ranks required of Jump that means he can jump 20 feet straight up without fail (well, unless he rolls a 1). Does no one else see a problem with that, or am I just reading this incorrectly? Also, no Armor check penalty or fall damage?--[[User:Badger|Badger]] 00:07, 29 July 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
: Other people can *fly* at that level, far higher than the Dragoon can jump, and the Dragoon is still limited by movement rate (so it'd take him 2 rounds to jump 90' or w/e). What's the problem with jumping high when people are flying higher, without making any checks?<br />
: Oh, and as for rolling a 1... botches are only on saves and attacks ;-) No crits or botches on anything else --[[User:Ghostwheel|Ghostwheel]] 00:10, 29 July 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::Except it does say that he can make any jump, no matter the distance in a single move action(see: "Dragoons jump extraordinarily quickly, letting them complete an entire jump, no matter how far it is, as a move action"). I did a little thinking, and while it's true it's not as powerful as I first thought, he could knock an adult Black Dragon's AC to 9 with that attack. And considering he can do 3x damage with a lance, more if he actually crits, you have to admit that is very powerful. Now an adult black dragon has an AC of 27 normally and an HP of 199. You figure an average of 15 damage per single attack (1d8x3) he's going to have that dragon taken out in no time. That's a CR 10 monster being killed by a character with an ECL of 6. While it is clear that is unlikely to happen, you have to admit it should be pretty much impossible. Unbeatable, according to the Encounter Calculator I used. As for the 1 on a skill check, sorry, sometimes house rules get confused with SRD in my mind. :) --[[User:Badger|Badger]] 00:29, 29 July 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::: Ah, didn't see the whole "jump as far as you want with one move action" thing--that does seem a bit off. As for the other part, it's not really as powerful as it seems, since even with Improved Crit you're only going to have a crit range of 19-20, and it's a standard action, so you can't combine it with a full attack or a martial strike. Basically, it's a single attack that's sure to hit and does a decent (but not great) amount of damage. The best way to optimize it would probably be with an extra source of damage (rogue's SA), or boosting your Strength sky-high (War Hulk, Clerzilla), but even then I'm not sure it it'd really be all that powerful. --[[User:Ghostwheel|Ghostwheel]] 00:43, 29 July 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::my problem with this (and all other FF dragoon type classes) is the rediculous frontloading. every one of them gets the ability to do insane jumps at first level, AND some good bonus damage when doing so, again at first level. at first level in this class, the dragoon can, virtually without fail, jump the 30ft vertical required for the jump attack, which then triples his damage; including STR and power attack. since a large opponent has very low AC against your quasi touch attack, you can go all out with PA. a level 6 character, with one level of dragoon, four levels of fighter (for weapon spec), and one other full bab level, with 18 strength and a +1 weapon, attacking with a -4 power attack deals (1d8+6(STR)+1(magic)*3 + 4(power attack)*4(jump and double fom two handing)=3d8+37, or about 49 damage. every. turn. the killer jump is absolutley insane. at 4th lvl in this class (10 over all) your jump check could be 13(rank)+5(STR18 with a +2 item)+2(tumble synergy) meaning a minimum of 10d6 and an average of 15d6 extra damage, and an auto crit, due to the low enemy AC from the touch attack, which deals an extra *5 damage (3 base for spear +2 from jump attack), for damage of (1d8+7(str)+2(magic))*5+6(-6 power attack)*6(*5 crit + double from power attack)=5d8+81, average of 101 damage, +15d6 for a total average of 146 damage. EVERY. ROUND. at 10th level. this without any magic item bonuses to jump, and assuming power attack damage is doubled by the rule of doubledouble equals triple, other wise damage is even greater. ihmo, jump attacks should be treated as a smite(limeted uses per day, and toned down somewhat), while giving a decent bonus to jumping attack made normally. and spread the jump bonuses out, maybe start with a "no running start", then later a "half difficulty" then "treat vert distance as horizontal" as a capstone. [[User:Zau|Zau]] 17:01, 4 October 2011 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::::I wrote this with the idea that, heck yes. You get your iconic Dragoon trick at level 6, when you enter the class. It stays useful. It can do a pile of damage out of the box. And if a player wanted to floor it, they can get the results of flooring it. There's no fighting it. Ilong ago admitted a truth: You can't beat the rules lawyers players out to milk every bit of damage they can. They will find a way around you. They really will. They will scrimp and save and do that kind of damage anyway. At level 10. C'est la vie. But, if someone uses this dragoon, they don't have to pour every character resource into doing enough damage to matter. CR 10 monsters have ~150 HP (for the bruisers, anyway), and getting a melee character to do enough damage for that to matter can be tough. I want fighters and warriors to be awesome without someone having to dumpster dive through everything and pouring every resource and all feats into the one trick that they can ''almost'' enough damage to make a juvenile red dragon go "Ow, that almost tickled." I believe the concept is called sandbagging--you could go higher, but you're high ''enough'', so why take all those resources when you could do something else with them. I wrote this one for the sandbaggers. I'm one of 'em, myself, and not terribly worried that someone, somewhere, could take this class, and floor it. When they could do it anyway. Or, heck, play a wizard and pay a ''little'' attention and get folks with the good old Solid Fog + Black Tentacles combo.<br />
<br />
== Rating == <br />
<br />
'''Power - 5/5''' I give this class a 5 out of 5 because it finally lets me be as impressive as martial adepts without having to be one, whilst simultaneously letting me play as my absolute favourite class from the Final Fantasy series! --[[User:Banatine|Banatine]] 13:35, 29 September 2009 (MDT)<br />
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'''Wording - 4.5/5''' I give this class a 4.5 out of 5 because the only thing missing is whether the class grants any armor or weapon proficiencies (I'm thinking of Dragonscale Husk (''Dragon Magic'') which scales with classes that grant heavy armor proficiency)--[[User:Banatine|Banatine]] 13:35, 29 September 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
'''[[Help:Standards and Formatting (DnD Guideline)|Formatting]] - 5/5''' I give this class a 5 out of 5 because it's laid out in pretty much exactly that same way as any official PrC. --[[User:Banatine|Banatine]] 13:35, 29 September 2009 (MDT)<br />
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'''Flavor - 4/5''' I give this class a 4 out of 5 because although good enough, it is a little shallow. You could include a few things about dragoons from games other than Tactics (i've read about them practising their early skills by jumping off cliffs...) --[[User:Banatine|Banatine]] 13:35, 29 September 2009 (MDT)<br />
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==Nonsensical changes==<br />
Yes, they were. Thanks, Jota. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 22:14, 21 January 2010 (UTC)<br />
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== Rating == <br />
<br />
'''Power - 4.5/5''' I give this class a 4.5 out of 5 because fairly good but there was nothing that really made it perfect --{{unsigned|71.107.97.25}}<br />
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'''Wording - 4/5''' I give this class a 4 out of 5 because about regular amount of wording but a story would be nice --{{unsigned|71.107.97.25}}<br />
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'''[[Help:Standards and Formatting (DnD Guideline)|Formatting]] - 4/5''' I give this class a 4 out of 5 because i dont know the standard to formatting but it is functional --{{unsigned|71.107.97.25}}<br />
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'''Flavor - 4.5/5''' I give this class a 4.5 out of 5 because pretty interesting for a character i would like to edit this to make it a little more balanced for all creatures --{{unsigned|71.107.97.25}}<br />
<br />
Hmmm...cool but O.P. as hell, i had to nerf most of it.....<br />
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== Rating == <br />
<br />
'''Power - <<<2>>>/5''' I give this class a <<<2>>> out of 5 because <<<Hmmm...cool but O.P. as hell, i had to nerf most of it.....>>> --[[Special:Contributions/76.92.160.126|76.92.160.126]] 06:25, 21 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
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'''Wording - <<<Insert Your Rating Here>>>/5''' I give this class a <<<Insert Your Rating Here>>> out of 5 because <<<insert why you gave the rating and how to improve it>>> --[[Special:Contributions/76.92.160.126|76.92.160.126]] 06:25, 21 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
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'''[[Help:Standards and Formatting (DnD Guideline)|Formatting]] - <<<Insert Your Rating Here>>>/5''' I give this class a <<<Insert Your Rating Here>>> out of 5 because <<<insert why you gave the rating and how to improve it>>> --[[Special:Contributions/76.92.160.126|76.92.160.126]] 06:25, 21 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
'''Flavor - <<<Insert Your Rating Here>>>/5''' I give this class a <<<Insert Your Rating Here>>> out of 5 because <<<insert why you gave the rating and how to improve it>>> --[[Special:Contributions/76.92.160.126|76.92.160.126]] 06:25, 21 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Hear ye, hear ye! The next person who says something is "O.P" and thinks that comment is in any way meaningful will make me cross, for several reasons! The first is the lack of language knowledge shown in abbreviating That Word to "O.P." (editing and proofreading academic papers will make this throw your hackles up, too.) The second is the lack of understanding of D&D mechanics shown by thinking small amounts of direct damage actually kill monsters; when the monsters have three hundred hit points, you should be able to take a whack out of that. The third is the lack of explanation that accompanies it. If you cannot supply a solid reason which withstands attempts to discredit it, you are either wrong (and therefore obligated to correct yourself when proven thus), or having a knee-jerk reaction which boils down to 'that CAN'T be right because...well...it just can't!' Yes, it can be right. And you can be wrong. And if you don't like something, try to lay out the math and mechanics so people have something more solid than an emotional reaction. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 06:38, 21 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
::I wouldn't get too upset about it. It's a rating from an IP who couldn't be bothered to figure out how the rating template works. [[User:Jazzman831|Jazz]][[User talk:Jazzman831|Man]] 17:18, 21 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
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== Jay's Rating of Ultimate Doom == <br />
<br />
'''Power - 4/5''' I give this class a 4/5 because it makes me happy to see this many critical's against a large opponent. Lance + Jump Attack + Really Big Monster = Huge Damage. Which is good because the bigger they are, the badder they are. I believe this type of power is completely appropriate for a melee character to wield at his current level.<br />
<br />
It doesn't get a 5/5 because Jump Attack can ignore normal Armor at 1st level. I'm fine with it ignoring Natural Armor. That is a common monster thing. But ignoring standard full-plate Armor upon the first gained level? (At what? 7th level?) ...Not to my liking. Put this armor-ignoring thing out until 10th level+ and I'll be fine. He can only use it so often anyways. --[[User:Jay Freedman|Jay Freedman]] 10:07, 21 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
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'''Wording - 4/5''' I give this class a 4/5 because I understood what happens. I didn't always understand why it happened. I want to know what kind of action everything is. Minor, Swift, Standard. I felt this area could be improved. --[[User:Jay Freedman|Jay Freedman]] 10:07, 21 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
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'''[[Help:Standards and Formatting (DnD Guideline)|Formatting]] - 1/5''' I give this class a 1/5 because the preload is not complete and this could be filled with fandom fluff. Lots of text could be on this page but it ain't. --[[User:Jay Freedman|Jay Freedman]] 10:07, 21 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
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'''Flavor - 3/5''' I give this class a 3/5 because its been done before and not original. Luckily, I am a fan of this specific kind of character. I'm a big Kain fan from FF. So I like this. I just wish it had some twists to make it spicy. So far all I see is "Big Monster Killer", "Reach Weapon", and a cool name. I want fluff and I want lots of it. --[[User:Jay Freedman|Jay Freedman]] 10:07, 21 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
'''How to make it better:''' --[[User:Jay Freedman|Jay Freedman]] 10:14, 21 March 2010 (UTC)<br />
* Give Dragonbreath an Action. Minor, Move, Standard, etc.<br />
* Make Jump Attack understandable. It confuses the heck out of me. So do I make a Jump check as a standard action and hope to reach a vertical height of 30 feet before simply landing and making a standard attack? Cause that is what I'm getting so far. Jump, land, if you made the bar then follow with a normal attack for a bonus.<br />
* Delay giving Jump Attack the ignore normal Armor thing until 3rd level or later.<br />
* Add lots of fluff that makes me want to play this class. If I haven't played FF games I don't want to play this class. No uber-super reason has yet to be given to me to do so.<br />
* Add a pic and complete the NPC.<br />
<br />
== My Own ==<br />
<br />
I created my own version of the dragoon prestige class; if you could look it over and rate it, it could help a lot. It's called Dragoon(By RDC)(D&D 3.5 Prestige). Thanks. -[[User:Rogue The Demonchild|Rogue The Demonchild]] 00:19, 1 June 2010 (MST)<br />
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== Rating == <br />
<br />
'''Power - 2/5''' I give this class a 2 out of 5 because it gains a lot of very powerful abilities very quickly, and has very soft prerequisites. Ignoring falling damage, doubling or tripling damage, etcetera. The outright double and triple get severely out of hand when you also get to ignore either armor or natural armor, allowing for immense power attacks, which would become doubled upon wielding a two-handed weapon and subsequently tripled upon jumping. Considering that anyone can grab a single level in the class after just two prerequisite-lacking feats, this seems far too much for just a single level investment. I'd advise spreading the jump ability out over more levels, or giving it a d4 cooldown as well, or removing some of the more powerful aspects in general. A flat attack and damage boost would likely be most fair, like just adding +1 or +2 to attack and damage per dragoon level. Furthermore, an automatic critical with the killer jump is preposterously good, considering that all one has to do to do it again is wait a short while. Likely want to put a daily limit on it, or at least not allow a double-jump on the killer. The breath and heart seem completely unnecessary given the extremely high damaging capacity the rest of the class provides easily. Heart makes you immune to a several effects -and- grants high healing over multiple turns. Especially considering that all it takes is a natural critical to set it off, you could just run around in the woods and attack animals until you got a critical hit, and heal up after each fight with minimal difficulty. --[[User:Gorgonica|Gorgonica]] 20:10, 15 January 2011 (MST)<br />
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'''Wording - 4/5''' I give this class a 4 out of 5 because Double jump and Killer jump are inconsistent; killer jump specifies an incapacity to use the ability for 1d4 rounds after it is used once, while double jump specifically says that the two abilities are compatible. I'd assume that double jump supersedes killer jump's properties, but it'd be good to specify. --[[User:Gorgonica|Gorgonica]] 20:10, 15 January 2011 (MST)<br />
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'''[[Help:Standards and Formatting (DnD Guideline)|Formatting]] - 3/5''' I give this class a 3 out of 5 because the class really needs some re-ordering. They need to have their abilities spaced out significantly. Knowledge skills don't make sense, and neither does dragonheart. Lancet could replace dragonheart, allowing an extra amount of damage be healed on pre-selected hits, like a uses-per-day sort of effect. Also, double jump has always just dealt double damage that a regular jump dealt in the franchise. Have double jump deal the multiplied damage, while normal jump just deals bonus damage. --[[User:Gorgonica|Gorgonica]] 20:10, 15 January 2011 (MST)<br />
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'''Flavor - 3/5''' I give this class a 3 out of 5 because, though dragoons ARE totally awesome, it's still a unique class based entirely on that of a pre-existing RPG franchise. --[[User:Gorgonica|Gorgonica]] 20:10, 15 January 2011 (MST)<br />
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<br />
<br />
== Rating == <br />
<br />
'''Power - 1/5''' I give this class a 5 out of 5 because The class itself gets ridiculously overpowered at lower levels. I've worked on a version of the Dragoon class myself and i've figured out a little perks and understanding to the class a bit. The version you made seems okay, but it get's overpowered way to early into the level, and just keeps growing in power. If you want i can share my opinions and ideas if you send me an email at :lemonguy@comcast.net --[[Special:Contributions/173.245.50.74|173.245.50.74]] 19:56, 18 August 2011 (MDT)<br />
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:Corrected to a 1/5. The Original Rating seemed to lean towards an extreme, and his reason for the rating appears to be negative, mentioning imbalance. I believe he simply misunderstood which side of the rating the side represents this. [[User:Jwguy|Jwguy]] 11:02, 21 August 2011 (MDT)<br />
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'''Wording - 3/5''' I give this class a 3 out of 5 because Some of the wording is scrambled into bits that breaks off from one subject to another. A couple of the class features are tough figuring out as well, especially the Dragon Breath Weapon, Double Jump, and the Killer Jump. The rest makes perfect sense though and i like how you made it simple. --[[Special:Contributions/173.245.50.74|173.245.50.74]] 19:56, 18 August 2011 (MDT)<br />
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'''[[Help:Standards and Formatting (DnD Guideline)|Formatting]] - <<<3>>>/5''' I give this class a <<<3>>> out of 5 because <<<Class is useful, yadda yadda, there's just some confusing things added to the text that could be worked out.>>> --[[Special:Contributions/173.245.50.74|173.245.50.74]] 19:56, 18 August 2011 (MDT)<br />
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'''Flavor - 4/5''' I give this class a 4 out of 5 because The class is unique and individual, as it's primary focus is to jump and attack at once. The main thing is that some text could be added to help describe the Dragoon's abilities better for flavor and roleplaying purposes. --[[Special:Contributions/173.245.50.74|173.245.50.74]] 19:56, 18 August 2011 (MDT)</div>Genowhirlhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Samurai,_Races_of_War_(3.5e_Class)&diff=536506Samurai, Races of War (3.5e Class)2011-09-27T06:45:34Z<p>Genowhirl: Undo revision 536466 by Aryk Damonik (talk) Page: Un-blanked. If you've got a reason, say so on the talk page.</p>
<hr />
<div><noinclude>{{Protection Against IP Edits}}<br />
<br />
:''This page details the Tome Samurai. You may be looking for the Samurai found in the [[Complete Warrior]].''<br />
{{DnD Base Class Infobox<br />
|img=Red samurai by unknown.jpg<br />
|imgloc=top<br />
|imgsize=270px<br />
|imgcaption=A female samurai.<br />
|rating_power=4.5<br />
|raters_power=1<br />
|rating_wording=4.9<br />
|raters_wording=1<br />
|rating_formatting=2.5<br />
|raters_formatting=1<br />
|rating_flavor=5<br />
|raters_flavor=1<br />
|status=Complete<br />
|editing=Spelling and grammar only<br />
|type=Combat-Focused<br />
|desc=A version of the class that is actually playable.<br />
}}<br />
<br />
==Samurai==</noinclude><includeonly>===Samurai===</includeonly><br />
{{quote|My ancestors had words for people who would do such a thing. They were not nice words.}}<br />
<br />
The war torn countrysides of many a land are held together with tremendous amounts of dedicated work by masters of weaponry and honor. These martial specialists represent the structure of society by their very existence, and beat the living crap out of any who would dare to stand against it.<br />
<br />
At least, that's the idea. In truth, there are those who take upon the mantle of the Samurai only to betray its ideals. Those who trample the fabric of the social network they are supposedly sworn to protect. <br />
<br />
<noinclude>===Making a Samurai===</noinclude><includeonly>====Making a Samurai====</includeonly><br />
<br />
With your peculiar set of abilities, you are the anti-tank gun. With your Kiai! ability, you are practically gauranteed to win personal combat--as long as you have uses of it left. As you gain Samurai levels, you gain more abilities which negate defenses, allowing you to, for example, demolish the formerly-invulnerable Wall of Force and escape the mighty Forcecage. Your ability to commune with the dead gives you something to do when you're trying to find out where to go next. Your armor and HP are relatively fragile, making you something of a glass cannon--nonetheless, you will be able to reave your way through crowds of opponents, and no matter what your opponent is, you will eventually be able to hurt it.<br />
<br />
'''Alignment:''' The Samurai can be of any alignment. All of them must maintain the veneer of honor and civility, though there is no reason that they have to actually be Lawful.<br />
<br />
'''Races:''' The Samurai is primarily found in societies where the law of the land is held in primacy over other things. So while a Samurai himself does not have to be Lawful, Lawful races bear the vast majority of Samurai.<br />
<br />
'''Starting Gold:''' 4d6x10 gp (140 gold), plus one [[SRD:Masterwork Weapons|masterwork weapon]].<br />
<br />
'''[[SRD:Race Descriptions#Starting Age|Starting Age]]:''' As [[SRD:Fighter|Fighter]].<br />
<br />
{| class="{{d20}}"<br />
|+<br />
<div>{{#anc:Table: The Samurai}}</div><br />
Hit Die: d8<br />
|-<br />
! rowspan="2" | Level<br />
! rowspan="2" | [[BAB|Base<br/>Attack Bonus]]<br />
! colspan="3" | [[SRD:Saving Throw|Saving Throw]]s<br />
! rowspan="2" | Special<br />
|-<br />
! [[SRD:Saving Throw#Fortitude|Fort]] || [[SRD:Saving Throw#Reflex|Ref]] || [[SRD:Saving Throw#Will|Will]]<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|1st|| class="left" | +1 || +0 || +0 || +2<br />
| class="left" | [[#Ancestral Weaponry|Ancestral Weaponry]], [[#Pledge of Loyalty|Pledge of Loyalty]]<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|2nd|| class="left" | +2 || +0 || +0 || +3<br />
| class="left" | [[#Horde Breaker|Horde Breaker]]<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|3rd|| class="left" | +3 || +1 || +1 || +3<br />
| class="left" | [[#Kiai!|Kiai!]]<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|4th||class="left" | +4 || +1 || +1 || +4<br />
| class="left" | [[#Whirlwind Attack|Whirlwind Attack]]<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|5th||class="left" | +5 || +1 || +1 || +4<br />
| class="left" | [[#Ancestral Guidance|Ancestral Guidance]]<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|6th||class="left" | +6/+1 || +2 || +2 || +5<br />
| class="left" | [[#Blindfighting|Blindfighting]], [[#Terrible Blows|Terrible Blows]]<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|7th||class="left" | +7/+2 || +2 || +2 || +5<br />
| class="left" | [[#Iaijutsu|Iaijutsu]]<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|8th||class="left" | +8/+3 || +2 || +2 || +6<br />
| class="left" | [[#Parry Magic|Parry Magic]]<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|9th||class="left" | +9/+4 || +3 || +3 || +6<br />
| class="left" | [[#Subtle Cut|Subtle Cut]]<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|10th||class="left" | +10/+5 || +3 || +3 || +7<br />
| class="left" | [[#Blade of Devastation|Blade of Devastation]]<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|11th||class="left" | +11/+6/+6 || +3 || +3 || +7<br />
| class="left" | [[#Iaijutsu Focus|Iaijutsu Focus]]<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|12th||class="left" | +12/+7/+7 || +4 || +4 || +8<br />
| class="left" | [[#Cut Magic|Cut Magic]]<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|13th||class="left" | +13/+8/+8 || +4 || +4 || +8<br />
| class="left" | [[#Deny Caster Defenses|Deny Caster Defenses]]<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|14th||class="left" | +14/+9/+9 || +4 || +4 || +9<br />
| class="left" | [[#Final Cut|Final Cut]]<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|15th||class="left" | +15/+10/+10 || +5 || +5 || +9<br />
| class="left" | [[#Iaijutsu Master|Iaijutsu Master]]<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|16th||class="left" | +16/+11/+11/+11 || +5 || +5 || +10<br />
| class="left" | [[#Reflect Magic|Reflect Magic]]<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|17th||class="left" | +17/+12/+12/+12 || +5 || +5 || +10<br />
| class="left" | [[#Blade of Souls|Blade of Souls]]<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|18th||class="left" | +18/+13/+13/+13 || +6 || +6 || +11<br />
| class="left" | [[#Deny Armor|Deny Armor]]<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|19th||class="left" | +19/+14/+14/+14 || +6 || +6 || +11<br />
| class="left" | [[#Iaijutsu Grandmaster|Iaijutsu Grandmaster]]<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|20th||class="left" | +20/+15/+15/+15 || +6 || +6 || +12<br />
| class="left" | [[#Scrolls of Wisdom|Scrolls of Wisdom]]<br />
|}<br />
'''Class Skills (4 + [[SRD:Intelligence|Int]] modifier per level, &times;4 at 1st level)'''<br/><br />
[[SRD:Balance|Balance]] ([[Dex]]), [[SRD:Climb|Climb]] ([[Str]]), [[SRD:Concentration|Concentration]] ([[Con]]), [[SRD:Craft|Craft]] ([[Int]]), [[SRD:Diplomacy|Diplomacy]] ([[Cha]]), [[SRD:Escape Artist|Escape Artist]] ([[Dex]]), [[SRD:Hide|Hide]] ([[Dex]]), [[SRD:Jump|Jump]] ([[Str]]), [[SRD:Knowledge|Knowledge]] (all skills individually) ([[Int]]), [[SRD:Listen|Listen]] ([[Wis]]), [[SRD:Move Silently|Move Silently]] ([[Dex]]), [[SRD:Perform|Perform]] ([[Cha]]), [[SRD:Profession|Profession]] ([[Wis]]), [[SRD:Sense Motive|Sense Motive]] ([[Wis]]), [[SRD:Swim|Swim]] ([[Str]]), and [[SRD:Tumble|Tumble]] ([[Dex]]).<br />
<br />
<noinclude>====Class Features====</noinclude><includeonly>=====Class Features=====</includeonly><br />
<br />
All of the following are class features of the Samurai.<br />
<br />
'''Weapon and Armor Proficiency:''' Samurai are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, as well as a single exotic weapon appropriate to the Samurai's tradition. Samurai are proficient with light and medium Armor, but not with shields of any kind.<br />
<br />
'''{{#anc:Ancestral Weaponry}}:''' Every culture with a Samurai tradition has a signature weapon that Samurai from that culture use. Whether it is the [[SRD:Spiked Chain|Spiked Chain]] of the Hobgoblin Khanate of Khadun or the Katana of the Human Empire of Rokugan, the weapon serves as a symbol of the office and prowess of the Samurai.<br />
<br />
A samurai can only have one weapon designated as his Ancestral Weapon at a time, and this weapon must be a [[SRD:Masterwork Weapons|masterwork weapon]] exalted by the Samurai's warrior culture. He must perform a 24 hour ritual to call his ancestral spirits into the weapon and designate it as his Ancestral Weapon. This ritual costs 100 gp in incense and offerings, and once performed grants the following abilities:<br />
<br />
*Counts as his Ancestral Weapon for all Samurai abilities.<br />
*Has a minimum enhancement bonus to attack and damage equal to his level divided by three (maximum of +5 for a samurai of 20th level or lower).<br />
*The Ancestral weapon has double HPs and +10 [[SRD:Breaking and Entering#Hardness|Hardness]], and has the [[SRD:Ghost Touch (Weapon Enhancement)|Ghost Touch]] special property.<br />
<br />
:''Example: Bandy Humaido is a halfling samurai, and his people greatly extort the halfling skiprock as a weapon of war – but because the skiprock is thrown weapon ammunition, it is inappropriate as an Ancestral Weapon (which, of course, you could only have one of). As such, Bandy instead draws the power of his ancestors into a short sword.''<br />
<br />
'''{{#anc:Pledge of Loyalty}}:''' Samurai pledge their loyalty to a Lord, a figure of temporal power and head of a noble family or clan. To retain this Lord, they must follow this Lord's orders and uphold any Code of Conduct the Lord obeys. As long as a Samurai does these two things, he cannot be forced to act against his Lord or Lord's family by mind-affecting effects.<br />
<br />
Samurai who have broken their vows to their lord are called ronin, while samurai who have never been pledged to a lord or are unwilling to do so are weaponmasters called kensai, sword saints, or simply "master swordsman" or other descriptive title. Regardless of their name, Samurai without a Lord receive a +4 bonus against mind-affecting effects.<br />
<br />
'''{{#anc:Horde Breaker}}:''' A Samurai gains [[Horde Breaker (DnD Feat)|Horde Breaker]] as a bonus feat at 2nd level. If the Samurai already has this feat, he may choose a [[Tome Combat Feats|Combat Feat]] instead, but only if he meets the prerequisites of that feat.<br />
<br />
'''{{#anc:Kiai!}} ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Extraordinary|Ex]]):''' At 3rd level, a Samurai may convert a successful strike into a confirmed [[SRD:Critical Hit|critical hit]]. He may use this ability a number of times per day equal to his half his Samurai level + 2. This ability is a free action that is declared after the strike is rolled and confirmed as a hit, but before damage is rolled. This ability cannot be used on [[SRD:Attacks of Opportunity|Attacks of Opportunity]].<br />
<br />
'''{{#anc:Whirlwind Attack}}:''' A Samurai gains [[Whirlwind (DnD Feat)|Whirlwind]] as a bonus feat at 4th level.<br />
<br />
'''''{{#anc:Ancestral Guidance}}'' ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Spell-Like|Sp]]):''' At 5th level, a Samurai may seek guidance from his ancestors. This counts as a ''[[SRD:Commune|commune]]'' effect that can be used once a day. A samurai can also seek guidance from other peoples' ancestors if they are available. This works like a ''[[SRD:Speak with Dead|speak with dead]]'' effect that may be used once per day.<br />
<br />
'''{{#anc:Blindfighting}}:''' A Samurai gains [[Blind Fighting (DnD Feat)|Blind Fighting]] as a bonus feat at 6th level. If the Samurai already has this feat, he may choose a [[Tome Combat Feats|Combat Feat instead]], but only if he meets the prerequisites of that feat.<br />
<br />
'''{{#anc:Terrible Blows}} ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Supernatural|Su]]):''' At 6th level, a Samurai's Ancestral Weapon bypasses [[SRD:Damage Reduction|Damage Reduction]] and ignores [[SRD:Breaking and Entering#Hardness|Hardness]].<br />
<br />
'''{{#anc:Iaijutsu}} ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Extraordinary|Ex]]):''' When a 7th level Samurai has the [[Races of War (3.5e Sourcebook)#Advanced Combat|Edge]] on an opponent, he may take an [[SRD:Attack of Opportunity|Attack of Opportunity]] against that opponent as an [[SRD:Immediate Actions|immediate action]] at any time.<br />
<br />
'''{{#anc:Parry Magic}} ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Supernatural|Su]]):''' At 8th level, a Samurai may use his Ancestral Weapon to parry magic targeted at him. When the Samurai is targeted by a spell or supernatural ability, he may take an [[SRD:Attack of Opportunity]] against the [[SRD:Aiming a Spell (Spell Descriptor)|targeted]] effect. If he can make an attack roll against an AC equal to the spell or effect's DC with this Attack of Opportunity, the effect does not affect him.<br />
<br />
'''{{#anc:Subtle Cut}}:''' A Samurai gains Subtle Cut as a bonus feat at 9th level. If the Samurai already has this feat, he may choose another [[Tome Combat Feats|Combat Feat]] instead, but only if he meets the prerequisites of that feat.<br />
<br />
'''{{#anc:Blade of Devastation}} ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Supernatural|Su]]):''' At 10th level, the Samurai may attack enemies within his reach through objects and walls, his Ancestral Weapon automatically destroying any unattended object or wall in the way with a [[SRD:Breaking and Entering#Hardness|Hardness]] less than 20. As a result, enemies do not gain cover bonuses against an attacking Samurai. This effect can also pierce [[SRD:Force Effect|force effects]].<br />
<br />
As a standard action, he can also destroy unattended objects of any Hardness with a successful Ancestral weapon attack, or dispel up to a 10' by 10' section of a [force] effect.<br />
<br />
'''{{#anc:Iaijutsu Focus}} ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Extraordinary|Ex]]):''' At 11th level, a Samurai may make up to his per round limit of [[SRD:Attacks of Opportunity|Attacks of Opportunity]] against any opponent(s) that he threatens as an [[SRD:Immediate Actions|immediate action]].<br />
<br />
'''{{#anc:Cut Magic}} ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Supernatural|Su]]):''' At 12th level, a Samurai may attack ongoing spell effects by attacking the square they are in for [[SRD:Aiming a Spell (Spell Descriptor)|Area of Effect]] effects or the object or person for [[SRD:Aiming a Spell (Spell Descriptor)|targeted]] effects (which does damage as normal to the object or person). This attack is handled like the Samurai's [[#Parry Magic|Parry Magic]] ability, but it only dispels a 10' by 10' section of an Area of Effect spell or spell-like ability.<br />
<br />
'''{{#anc:Deny Caster Defenses}} ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Extraordinary|Ex]]):''' At 13th level, a Samurai attacking with his Ancestral Weapon ignores any AC bonuses on his targets that come from spells or spell-like abilities.<br />
<br />
'''{{#anc:Final Cut}} ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Extraordinary|Ex]]):''' At 14th level, a Samurai's Ancestral Weapon gains the Vorpal special quality, even if it is not a slashing weapon.<br />
<br />
'''{{#anc:Iaijutsu Master}} ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Extraordinary|Ex]]):''' At 15th level, any enemy struck by a Samurai's [[SRD:Attacks of Opportunity|Attacks of Opportunity]] must make a Fortitude save against a DC equal to 10 + {{1/2}} the Samurai's HD + the Samurai's Wisdom bonus or be [[SRD:Dazed|dazed]] for one round. A successful save against this effect makes the enemy immune to this effect for five rounds.<br />
<br />
'''{{#anc:Reflect Magic}} ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Supernatural|Su]]):''' At 16th level, an spell effect that would be dispelled by a successful use of the Samurai's [[#Parry Magic|Parry Magic]] ability can instead be reflected back on the caster, as per a ''[[SRD:Spell Turning|spell turning]]'' effect.<br />
<br />
'''{{#anc:Blade of Souls}}:''' At 17th level, any enemy killed by a Samurai's Ancestral Weapon has his soul sucked into it, and this enemy cannot be [[SRD:Raise Dead|raised]], [[SRD:Resurrection|resurrected]], or otherwise returned to life until the Ancestral Blade is broken. Each time the Ancestral Weapon takes a soul, the Samurai gains a single bonus use of his [[#Kiai!|Kiai!]] ability that must be used before the next sunrise.<br />
<br />
'''{{#anc:Deny Armor}} ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Supernatural|Su]]):''' At 18th level, a Samurai attacking with his Ancestral Weapon ignores any AC bonuses on his targets that come from [[SRD:Armor Bonus|armor]] or [[SRD:Natural Armor|natural armor]].<br />
<br />
'''{{#anc:Iaijutsu Grandmaster}} ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Extraordinary|Ex]]):''' At 19th level, any [[SRD:Attack of Opportunity|Attack of Opportunity]] made by the Samurai is automatically a [[SRD:Critical Hit|confirmed critical hit]].<br />
<br />
'''{{#anc:Scrolls of Wisdom}}:''' At 20th level, the Samurai has reached the pinnacle of his art, and he may compose a treatise of his collected wisdom. If he spends one month composing this treatise, he may distribute it and spread his wisdom. Anyone who reads this treatise gains a +2 competence bonus to attack characters with Samurai levels, but a -8 penalty to attack the writer of the treatise.<br />
<br />
In addition, a Samurai who writes his treatise no longer takes ability penalties for aging as long as one copy of the treatise exists.<br />
<br />
<noinclude><br />
----<br />
{{3.5e Races of War Breadcrumb}} &rarr; [[Races of War (3.5e Sourcebook)/Warriors with Class|Warriors with Class]]<br/><br />
{{DnD Base Classes Breadcrumb}}<br />
[[Category:DnD]]<br />
[[Category:3.5e]]<br />
[[Category:User]]<br />
[[Category:Tome]]<br />
[[Category:Class]]<br />
[[Category:Base Class]]<br />
[[Category:Combat-Focused]]<br />
</noinclude></div>Genowhirlhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Death_King_(3.5e_Prestige_Class)&diff=494412Talk:Death King (3.5e Prestige Class)2010-11-12T02:25:26Z<p>Genowhirl: Undo revision 494409 by 174.93.112.248 (talk) undo vandalism</p>
<hr />
<div>== Rating ==<br />
<br />
'''Power - 5/5''' I give this class a 5 out of 5 because nothing that this class does is remotely gamebreaking, and it is extremely well balanced (Also, I like the fact that the regeneration is bypassed by the one thing no one actually expects to have). &rarr; [[User:Rithaniel|<span style=color:Gray; -moz-border-radius-topleft:25px; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px">Rith</span>]]<sup> [[User talk:Rithaniel|<span style=color:black; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px; -moz-border-radius-topleft:20px">(talk)</span>]]</sup> 07:52, 23 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
'''Wording - 5/5''' I give this class a 5 out of 5 because everything on this pages can be easily understood. &rarr; [[User:Rithaniel|<span style=color:Gray; -moz-border-radius-topleft:25px; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px">Rith</span>]]<sup> [[User talk:Rithaniel|<span style=color:black; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px; -moz-border-radius-topleft:20px">(talk)</span>]]</sup> 07:52, 23 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
'''[[Help:Standards and Formatting (DnD Guideline)|Formatting]] - 3/5''' I give this class a 3 out of 5 because sizable portions of the preload are missing, though, interwiki linking is effectively comprehensive (though a couple of those red links need to be handled). &rarr; [[User:Rithaniel|<span style=color:Gray; -moz-border-radius-topleft:25px; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px">Rith</span>]]<sup> [[User talk:Rithaniel|<span style=color:black; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px; -moz-border-radius-topleft:20px">(talk)</span>]]</sup> 07:52, 23 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
'''Flavor - 5/5''' I give this class a 5 out of 5 because I '''LOVE''' the idea behind this class, it gave me that tingly feeling when I was reading about it, and I would like to see more fluff on it personally. &rarr; [[User:Rithaniel|<span style=color:Gray; -moz-border-radius-topleft:25px; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px">Rith</span>]]<sup> [[User talk:Rithaniel|<span style=color:black; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px; -moz-border-radius-topleft:20px">(talk)</span>]]</sup> 07:52, 23 May 2009 (MDT)</div>Genowhirlhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Book_of_Gears_(3.5e_Sourcebook)&diff=494302Talk:Book of Gears (3.5e Sourcebook)2010-11-11T03:41:03Z<p>Genowhirl: </p>
<hr />
<div>== Transcribed ==<br />
<br />
This was orginally created by Frank & K. And then was placed on "Dungeons.wikia". It is now moved to Dnd wiki by me (Milo V3). I take no credit for this work and I am trying my best to get the class ability names fixed.--[[User:Milo v3|Milo High-Hill]] 15:42, 7 November 2010 (MST)--<br />
<br />
:"This was originally created by Frank & K" &mdash; do you know under which license? --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 16:47, 7 November 2010 (MST)<br />
<br />
::No I don't know what license? Do you have any Ideas I can findout? --[[User:Milo v3|Milo High-Hill]] 17:45, 7 November 2010 (MST)<br />
<br />
:::Where it was originally published will probably say something about it. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 20:12, 7 November 2010 (MST)<br />
<br />
::::Both Frank and K are repeatedly on record saying their online D&D/game design stuff is free to use--without attribution, even. I believe that's called "Public Domain". I'll have to dig up a link from the Gaming Den, but, yes, this is allowed. And being the classy folks we are, we'll keep the credit where credit is due. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 01:37, 9 November 2010 (MST)<br />
<br />
:::::Thanks Genowhirl. I think I'll put "Book Of Elements" on next. Saddly it was never finished. --[[User:Milo v3|Milo High-Hill]] 00:35, 10 November 2010 (MST)<br />
<br />
::::::Actually, I believe it was. It's just Wikia implemented some clunkiness that was found undesirable so they moved to a private server so they didn't have to do some of the reskinning and modifications (which would have played hob with the tables and other niceties of formatting). Take a look if you want--I'll even be helpful and supply a link: http://www.dnd-wiki.org/wiki/3.5e_Sourcebooks --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 20:41, 10 November 2010 (MST)<br />
<br />
== Categorization ==<br />
<br />
Why is it not appearing on the [[3.5e Sourcebooks|3.5e sourcebooks]] page? It is part of [[:Category:Sourcebook]]. --[[User:Milo v3|Milo High-Hill]] 15:46, 7 November 2010 (MST)<br />
<br />
:Thanks it's fixed (I'm guessing [[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]]). Also how do you add a description to the Sourcebook page? --[[User:Milo v3|Milo High-Hill]] 17:47, 7 November 2010 (MST)<br />
<br />
::Ya, I fixed it. It was missing [[:Category:DnD]]. And to make a description appear on [[3.5e Sourcebooks|3.5e sourcebooks]] one needs to fill out [[Template:x0]]. I added it. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 13:23, 10 November 2010 (MST)</div>Genowhirlhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Book_of_Gears_(3.5e_Sourcebook)&diff=493954Talk:Book of Gears (3.5e Sourcebook)2010-11-09T08:37:44Z<p>Genowhirl: </p>
<hr />
<div>== Transcribed ==<br />
<br />
This was orginally created by Frank & K. And then was placed on "Dungeons.wikia". It is now moved to Dnd wiki by me (Milo V3). I take no credit for this work and I am trying my best to get the class ability names fixed.--[[User:Milo v3|Milo High-Hill]] 15:42, 7 November 2010 (MST)--<br />
<br />
:"This was originally created by Frank & K" &mdash; do you know under which license? --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 16:47, 7 November 2010 (MST)<br />
<br />
::No I don't know what license? Do you have any Ideas I can findout? --[[User:Milo v3|Milo High-Hill]] 17:45, 7 November 2010 (MST)<br />
<br />
:::Where it was originally published will probably say something about it. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 20:12, 7 November 2010 (MST)<br />
<br />
::::Both Frank and K are repeatedly on record saying their online D&D/game design stuff is free to use--without attribution, even. I believe that's called "Public Domain". I'll have to dig up a link from the Gaming Den, but, yes, this is allowed. And being the classy folks we are, we'll keep the credit where credit is due. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 01:37, 9 November 2010 (MST)<br />
<br />
== SourceBook??? ==<br />
<br />
Why is it not appearing on the 3.5 homebrew Sourcebooks page? It is part of the sourcebook catergory. --[[User:Milo v3|Milo High-Hill]] 15:46, 7 November 2010 (MST)<br />
<br />
Thanks its fixed (I'm guessing Green Dragon. Also how do you add a description to the Sourcebook page? ----[[User:Milo v3|Milo High-Hill]] 17:47, 7 November 2010 (MST)</div>Genowhirlhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Dragoon_(3.5e_Prestige_Class)&diff=491729Dragoon (3.5e Prestige Class)2010-10-19T02:20:21Z<p>Genowhirl: Undo revision 491728 by 67.204.207.115 (talk)</p>
<hr />
<div>{{DnD Prestige Class Infobox<br />
|img=<br />
|imgloc=<br />
|imgsize=<br />
|imgcaption=<br />
|rating_power= 4<br />
|raters_power=1<br />
|rating_wording=3<br />
|raters_wording=1<br />
|rating_formatting=4<br />
|raters_formatting=1<br />
|rating_flavor=5<br />
|raters_flavor=1<br />
|authors=[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]]<br />
|datecreated=<br />
|adopters=<br />
|dateadopted=<br />
|status=Completed<br />
|editing=In progress, let me do it<br />
|type=Combat-focused<br />
|desc=Dragoons specialize in fighting extremely large enemies. They prefer spears for this purpose because of the simplicity of use and the reach. With a bit of natural magic and a lot of hard work, they grow to be capable of incredible maneuvers.<br />
|len=10<br />
|minlvl=5<br />
}}<br />
<br />
==Dragoon==<br />
<br />
{{quote<br />
|'''''"You can fly?!?"'''''<br />
|orig=A blue dragon simultaneously discovering the existance and capabilities of Dragoons<br />
}}<br />
<br />
The Dragoons are a group of warriors dedicated to slaying large monsters. Of course, they are most famous for taking on dragons, to the point that many of them have a definite dragon motif to their armor. Armed with a spear to be able to reach vital points on barn-sized creatures with hides like rock, Dragoons leap fearlessly into battle. And I do mean '''leap.'''<br />
<br />
It is hypothesized that the amazing physical abilities shown by a Dragoon are the result of natural talent for magic combined with a strict training regimen, and channeled towards something other than spells. <br />
<br />
===Becoming a Dragoon===<br />
<br />
Generally, Dragoons are recruited and trained as a sort of public service; even Evil civilizations have a problem with big monsters, so Dragoons can hail from those places, too.<br />
<br />
<br />
{| class="d20 dragon monstats" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"<br />
|+ style="font-size: larger; white-space: nowrap;" | Entry Requirements<br />
|-<br />
! Skills:<br />
| Jump 8 Ranks<br />
|-<br />
! Feats:<br />
| [[Giant Slayer (DnD Feat)]] for those using [[Races of War (3.5e Sourcebook)]] rules, [[SRD:Skill Focus|Skill Focus: Jump]] for those who aren't.<br />
|-<br />
! Special:<br />
| Heavy armor proficiency, and proficiency with a spear, lance, or similar weapon.<br />
|} <br />
<br />
{| class="{{d20}}"<br />
|+ <div>{{#anc:Table: The Dragoon}}</div><br />
<p>Hit Die: d10</p><br />
|-<br />
! rowspan="2" | Level<br />
! rowspan="2" | [[BAB|Base<br/>Attack Bonus]]<br />
! colspan="3" | [[SRD:Saving Throw|Saving Throw]]s<br />
! rowspan="2" | Special<br />
|-<br />
! [[SRD:Saving Throw#Fortitude|Fort]] || [[SRD:Saving Throw#Reflex|Ref]] || [[SRD:Saving Throw#Will|Will]]<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
| 1st || +1 || +2 || +2 || +0<br />
| class="left" | [[#Evasion|Evasion]], [[#Jump Attack|Jump Attack]], [[#Jump Good|Jump Good]]<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
| 2nd || +2 || +3 || +3 || +0<br />
| class="left" | [[#Spear Mastery|Spear Mastery]]<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
| 3rd || +3 || +3 || +3 || +1<br />
| class="left" | [[#Dragonbreath|Dragonbreath]]<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
| 4th || +4 || +4 || +4 || +1<br />
| class="left" | [[#Killer Jump|Killer Jump]]<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
| 5th || +5 || +4 || +4 || +1<br />
| class="left" | [[#Dragonbreath|Dragonbreath]]<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
| 6th || +6 || +5 || +5 || +2<br />
| class="left" | [[#Giantkiller|Giantkiller]]<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
| 7th || +7 || +5 || +5 || +2<br />
| class="left" | [[#Dragonbreath|Dragonbreath]]<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
| 8th || +8 || +6 || +6 || +2<br />
| class="left" | [[#Dragonheart|Dragonheart]], [[#Improved Evasion|Improved Evasion]]<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
| 9th || +9 || +6 || +6 || +3<br />
| class="left" | [[#Dragonbreath|Dragonbreath]]<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
| 10th || +10 || +7 || +7 || +3<br />
| class="left" | [[#Double Jump|Double Jump]]<br />
|-<br />
| colspan="42" class="skill" |<br />
'''Class Skills (4 + [[Int]] modifier per level)'''<br/><br />
[[SRD:Balance|Balance]] ([[Dex]]), [[SRD:Climb|Climb]] ([[Str]]), [[SRD:Craft|Craft]] ([[Int]]), [[SRD:Intimidate|Intimidate]] ([[Cha]]), [[SRD:Jump|Jump]] ([[Str]]), [[SRD:Knowledge|Knowledge]] (all skills individually) ([[Int]]), [[SRD:Listen|Listen]] ([[Wis]]), [[SRD:Profession|Profession]] ([[Wis]]), [[SRD:Sense Motive|Sense Motive]] ([[Wis]]), [[SRD:Spot|Spot]] ([[Wis]]), [[SRD:Survival|Survival]] ([[Wis]]), [[SRD:Swim|Swim]] ([[Str]]), and [[SRD:Tumble|Tumble]] ([[Dex]])<br />
|}<br />
<br />
'''Overtrained:''' While not exactly a Code of Conduct, Dragoons do have a few things drilled into their head by their teacher: '''Defend the People From Monsters, Especially Big Monsters.''' <br />
<br />
The majority of their training is concerned with finding ways to stab monsters in the face when it seems improbable that the Dragoon would be able to reach that high. Naturally, a Dragoon's first reaction upon seeing a monster chewing on a few cows in the street and hearing people scream, would be to heft his spear and then endeavor to stab the monster in the face. I'm not saying they ''must'' do it, but it will be their first, second, and third thoughts.<br />
<br />
'''{{#anc:Evasion}} ([[Ex]]):''' Really big creatures can often unleash really big blasts of fire or acid or some other unpleasantness. For this reason, Dragoons are trained in the arts of evasion. Should a Dragoon already have Evasion, this stacks to Improved Evasion.<br />
<br />
'''{{#anc:Jump Attack}} ([[Ex]]):''' At first level Dragoons learn a specialized mode of attack—one called 'death from above'. As long as one falls at least thirty feet and performs a standard-action attack at the end of the fall, he does double damage on a successful hit; if he's wielding a spear or a lance of some kind, he does triple damage and ignores either armor or natural armor (whichever is higher). Should he score a critical hit with a Jump Attack, damage is caculated by adding 1 onto the weapon's critical multiplier, or 2 if using a spear or a lance or similar weapon.<br />
<br />
'''{{#anc:Jump Good}} ([[Su]]):''' At 1st level, A Dragoon's Jump DCs are halved, and the formula for figuring vertical jump height is the same as for horizontal jump height (one foot per point on the check). <br />
<br />
Dragoons jump extraordinarily quickly, letting them complete an entire jump, no matter how far it is, as a move action, and their Armor Check penalty does not apply to their Jump checks; they are always considered to benefit from a running start on Jump checks. <br />
<br />
They also gain immunity to falling damage as long as they’re conscious and always land on their feet.<br />
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'''{{#anc:Spear Mastery}} ([[Ex]]):''' Dragoons like spears. They’re simple to use, and the reach makes it easier to damage vital points on their chosen foes—big, big monsters. At 2nd level, a Dragoon may use a reach weapon to attack adjacent squares as if it were not a reach weapon. The critical threat range with spears and lances and other piercing polearms is increased by 1 (this stacks with anything that doubles the critical threat range, but is added ''after'' the doubling).<br />
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'''{{#anc:Dragonbreath}} ([[Su]]):''' Dragoons have a career fighting monsters who tend to have breath weapons or some ability to turn an entire area into pain. Naturally, there is a desire to get even and at 3rd level it's become strong enough to take over more of the Dragoon's natural magical talent and grant him a breath weapon known as Dragonbreath. <br />
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At levels 3, 5, 7, and 9, select an energy type out of fire, electricity, cold, acid, and sonic. The Dragoon can use his Dragonbreath with any of his repetoire of energy types. Dragonbreath is a 15-foot cone which inflicts 1d8 per character level of the energy type (selected when used), Reflex save DC 10 + 1/2 Character level + Con mod for half. After Dragonbreath is used, it may not be used again for 1d4 rounds.<br />
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'''{{#anc:Killer Jump}} ([[Su]]):''' If a Dragoon has learned anything about science by 4th level, it’s that there is a huge amount of energy to be gained from falling.<br />
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Killer Jump is full-round action. It begins when the Dragoon makes a Jump check to land on a target, and with this particular check he may travel travel up to 10 feet (vertically and/or horizontally, at his discretion) for every two points on the check.<br />
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When he lands on the target, he makes a touch attack roll. It is like a normal Jump Attack (does double damage on a successful hit (triple if using a spear)) but an additional d6 of damage for every 10 feet he fell, and this attack is considered a critical threat and resolved as such; the bonus falling damage is not multiplied. He may do this every 1d4 rounds.<br />
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'''{{#anc:Giantkiller}} ([[Ex]]):''' A 6th-level Dragoon has some experience with killing big creatures, and has discovered a very interesting fact--big creatures have big vital areas. Of course, having a long weapon helps in exploiting these areas.<br />
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A Dragoon gets a doubled critical range for spear-like weapons, as long as the target is Large size or larger. He also gets a +2 on his attack rolls to confirm critical hits for each size the creature is above medium. <br />
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'''{{#anc:Improved Evasion}} ([[Ex]]):''' As the Rogue. If the Dragoon already has Improved Evasion, he gets a bonus feat for which he meets the prerequisites.<br />
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'''{{#anc:Dragonheart}} ([[Su]]):''' A Dragoon who hits his stride will enter a euphoric state of mind. It's a good place for him, and a bad place for his enemies.<br />
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If a Dragoon succeeds on a saving throw or confirms a natural critical hit (the auto-threat from Killer Jump does not count, unless the attack roll was naturally in the threat range), Dragonheart activates as a free action. The Dragoon gains Fast Healing equal to 1/2 his character level + his Con modifier, and becomes immune to mind-affecting effects, ability damage or drain, and morale and fear effects. Dragonheart lasts for a number of rounds equal to his class level.<br />
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'''{{#anc:Double Jump}} ([[Su]]):''' The Dragoon is now a master of jumping on things to kill them. When he connects with a Jump Attack or a Killer Jump, he may make a swift action to perform a Jump check and a resulting Jump Attack upon the same target.<br />
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====Ex-Dragoon====<br />
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Generally, Dragoons only retire when old age makes fighting giant monsters risky. Most of them, though, default to being Dragoons and, as such, seek out, recruit, and train suitable people to replace themselves in the ranks.<br />
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===Campaign Information===<br />
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Dragoons can be formal military units, formal organizations, or just a particular school of combat. Here's some suggestions for handling all three:<br />
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*'''Military Unit:''' In this model, armies have small units of Dragoons, who serve as elite troops and commanders, as well as their duty to protect people from attack by big monsters. In this, even a level 1 Dragoon is considered fit to command a small amount of troops--and as Dragoons get higher-level, the amount of power they have in the military increases. <br />
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Given that at least a little aptitude for magic is required (or suggested, anyway) (DMs, it's suggested that if someone wants to play a Dragoon, they get to write 'Has latent magical talent' in their background and that satisfies the requirement) Dragoon numbers are few, and as soldiers, they're outfitted with good equipment by the army itself.<br />
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*'''Organization:''' Rather like the knights of the round table, Dragoons are an organization in which membership is quite the resume buff. Their purpose is easy enough--protect civilized people from big monsters. Having a Dragoon responsible for an area or a city/town is a good way to do this.<br />
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*'''Combat School:''' In this, there's no actual organization, just a bunch of people who learn, know, and teach the secrets to fighting like a Dragoon. Their numbers are relatively few, but they're still out there.<br />
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====Playing a Dragoon====<br />
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'''Combat:''' A Dragoon quickly becomes a high-mobility, high-damage combatant, whose survivability is supplemented by their use of armor.<br />
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'''Advancement:''' Fighter is a good choice.<br />
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'''Resources:''' Dragoons can count on the support of other Dragoons in the face of a big monster. Legend has it that a war was halted in mid-battle because of a dragon attack, and Dragoon units from the opposing armies cooperated flawlessly and without hesitation to slay the monsters.<br />
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====Dragoons in the World====<br />
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{{quote|That armor's heavy, isn't it? That's good. That weight will become your weapon. That'll keep you alive. When you can stand up, try jumping. You'll fall over when you land, but you'll get up. And when you do get back up, jump again. Fall down and get up a thousand times, until you can jump a thousand times without stopping. Then keep going until you can jump a thousand times and another thousand besides. Soon you won't even feel that armor on you when you jump.|<br />
|orig=Gorden Drunkaxe, dwarven dragoon (retired)<br />
}}<br />
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'''NPC Reactions:''' In civilized regions, Dragoons get respect--they are known as the defense against monsters which, for whatever reason, decide to attack settlements and cities. In uncivilized regions, their impressive physical prowess and skill with spears earns them respect from local tribes.<br />
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====Dragoon Lore====<br />
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Characters with ranks in Knowledge (History) or (Nobility and Royalty) can research Dragoons to learn more about them. When a character makes a skill check, read or paraphrase the following, including information from lower DCs.<br />
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{| class="d20" {{#vardefine: odd | 0}}<br />
|+ Knowledge (History) or (Nobility and Royalty)<br />
! DC || class="left" | Result<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
| 11 || class="left" | The Dragoons are heavy-hitters who like spears and jump better than grasshoppers.<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
| 16 || class="left" | Dragoons have natural magic; maybe they could have been sorcerors. Now their magic makes them a little dragon-like. Their breath is certainly the same.<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
| 21 || class="left" | Dragoons are bound by unofficial rules, and two Dragoons trying to kill each other will cease their own fight to cooperate against a giant monster which attacks them.<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|}<br />
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----<br />
{{Copyright Disclaimer}}<br />
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[[Category:Final Fantasy]]</div>Genowhirlhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Halfling_Hurler_(3.5e_Optimized_Character_Build)&diff=491489Talk:Halfling Hurler (3.5e Optimized Character Build)2010-10-14T16:32:09Z<p>Genowhirl: </p>
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<div>Epic feats (such as Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting) cannot be taken before level 21. --[[User:Ghostwheel|Ghostwheel]] 03:47, 14 July 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:Yes they can, with the level 10 ability. Did you even read the page? [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 11:27, 14 July 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::So you're saying that ANY feat, even epic ones are obtainable (WITHOUT fulfilling the prerequisites) through the Bonus Feat option of the Rogue's "Special Ability" ability? I... highly doubt that. Also, constant 20% miss chance can really screw up your attacks. --[[User:Ghostwheel|Ghostwheel]] 11:30, 14 July 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:::Can people not read referenced sources anymore? The unqualified bonus feat is right there in the Monster Manual (like I said). Adding Sneak Attack damage from ranged weapons is right there in the [[SRD:Blink|Blink]] spell (which I also said -- and spelled out). As for optimization, it does not always require a stupid mixture of classes and prestige classes -- it can also be about having the right feats or item combinations that puts you far ahead of everyone else. I challenge anyone to make a better Rogue build. I can't even edit this damn page anymore because people keep doing minor edits, so now I get to respond to something else that isn't so obvious and probably should be added to the page: the [[SRD:Blink|Blink]] miss chance on your attacks doesn't apply to ranged attacks -- it's the same principle that makes [[SRD:Enlarge Person|Enlarge Person]] stuff that you drop return to normal size. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 11:35, 14 July 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::::If we're talking about a primarily combat rogue, Rogue 4 / Swashbuckler 16 with Daring Outlaw maybe? All the SA goodness of rogue, 19 BAB by level 20. And like you said, the build's not exactly hurting for feats. Add a level or two of Swordsage for Assassin's Stance (another +2d6 SA) and Wisdom to AC. Also 5 levels of Invisible Blade wouldn't hurt. --[[User:Ghostwheel|Ghostwheel]] 11:39, 14 July 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:::::I'd much prefer having 10 levels of Rogue so I can take Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting, personally. After level 10 it's pretty much "whatever". I should probably remove the levels after 10 on this page. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 11:40, 14 July 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::::::Yeah, might be better as a half-optimization since it's basically showing off one or two tricks (Blink, and access to epic feats by level 10--though I doubt most DMs would let that fly). --[[User:Ghostwheel|Ghostwheel]] 11:43, 14 July 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:::::::Most DMs wouldn't let most optimizations fly. --[[User:Aarnott|Aarnott]] 11:46, 14 July 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::::::::[[User:Ghostwheel#The_banned_list_I_use_for_my_3.5_games_.28the_Wall_of_Cheese.29:|The cheesy ones]]? I agree--and with good reason. --[[User:Ghostwheel|Ghostwheel]] 13:41, 14 July 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::::::::Could you point out where it says in the Monster Manual that "Bonus feats, unless otherwise qualified, can ignore prerequisites" when not talking about racial bonus feats? --[[User:Ghostwheel|Ghostwheel]] 22:12, 14 July 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:::::::::It doesn't talk about racial bonus feats. It talks about bonus feats. The word "racial" doesn't even appear. (It also happens to be the only point where bonus feats are actually defined.) [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 22:47, 14 July 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::::::::::Page? Didn't see it come up in the search --[[User:Ghostwheel|Ghostwheel]] 23:01, 14 July 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:::::::::::Page is 7 (under feats, but I think you already knew that) -- the text also appears, identically, in the SRD. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 23:08, 14 July 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::::::::::::Wow I really have to say that is one of the most perverse interpretations of the rules I have seen so far. The text on page 7 of the MM states that if a creature has a bonus feat in its entry that it does not meet the prerequisites for it doesn't need them. It says nothing about character who gain bonus feats not having to meet them. {{quote|Creatures often do not have the prerequisites for a bonus feat. If this is so, the creature can still use the feat.|src=MM, page 7}} <br />
::::::::::::You do realize that Blink is nothing like Enlarge Person, Blink actually takes you to the ethereal plane not just makes you ethereal, so the miss chance is applied to all attacks including ranged attacks, since your weapons are not made ethereal they are actually on the ethereal plane. {{quote|You “blink” back and forth between the Material Plane and the Ethereal Plane.|src=Blink Spell}}<br />
::::::::::::So this means that you don't get SA either since you don't get it any time an enemy has concealment. {{quote|A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment.....|src=Rogue Sneak Attack}} <br />
::::::::::::Sorry but these quotes from the actual source, not just perverse interpretations, stop most of this build from doing what it is supposed to do. -[[User:Sarrow|Sarrow]] 01:01, 24 July 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:::::::::::::One thing at a time. You'll note that the page in the MM is the ''only place a bonus feat is actually defined'' and very clearly states that you do not need to meet the prerequisites for them. End of story.<br />
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:::::::::::::Now, how about Blink? First of all, the statement that you don't get SA is simply nonsense. Nowhere does it say that your enemy gets concealment (and I find it quite a bit of sophistry where, despite the quoting of rules text left and right in your post, you never once quote anything that states that -- because it doesn't exist, of course, but that's beside the point). The rest is nonsense as well, but it's not as obviously nonsense. If you're under the effect of the Blink spell and you happen to be carrying a rock, then you put the rock down, the rock doesn't continue to blink -- it's nonmagical, and the blink effect is not cast on it, its cast on you and the stuff you're carrying is taken along for the ride. Same thing if you pick up the rock -- it doesn't suddenly start to blink (another fact explicitly clarified by Enlarge Person). This is why that entire line of spells have text clarifying that this is exactly what goes on -- unfortunately, they didn't clarify it for Blink. Now let's just imagine what would happen if it ''did'' work the way you propose -- drop a rock, plane shift somewhere else, and someone else dispels the rock -- and, somehow, you as well. Or grab someone, wait until you're on the ethereal plane, and drop them (which would, admittedly, be a funny and effective combat tactic). [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 01:31, 24 July 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::::::::::::::You are constantly teleporting in and out of ANOTHER DIMENSION. Presumably, there are different things on that other dimension than the thing that you wish to attack. So, roughly 50% of the time, you cannot see your target. That is somewhat important when attempting to hit it. Imagine trying to shoot clay pigeons while you were blinking as rapidly as you could. You wouldn't hit anything. Also, your views on bonus feats are lying lies that lie. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/fighter.htm clearly specifies that you must meet the prerequisite feats to acquire the bonus feat, and is much more appropriate to Characters than the MM. Edit: I found that entry you speak of in the MM. (Most of the way down this page on the SRD: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/intro.htm ). However, this clearly notes that this only applies to bonus feats for specific creatures that are marked with a superscript B. That would imply the feat is racial in nature - the entry goes on to state that, even when customizing the creature, that one bonus feat is unchanged. Because the text goes to such length to clarify WHY the creature has the feat without meeting prerequisites, I can only assume that "normal" bonus feats must also meet prerequisites, just like the Fighter. [[User:Hardcore Heathen|Hardcore Heathen]] 03:01, 24 July 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::::::::::::::: Hold on. You say he's a liar, but then provide a link that says it "clearly specifies that you must meet the prerequisites"... BUT THAT LINK DOES NO SUCH THING. Requirements aren't listed ANYWHERE on the link you provided. Surgo actually backed up his argument. You... claimed a link said something it didn't. THAT is clearly lying. Very "clever", falsely accusing someone of lying while lying yourself. In addition, your second link also doesn't say what you're claiming it does. Can you provide specific quotes, or will you just continue lying? Also, it's worth pointing out that you say the character suffers a 50% miss chance... something you pulled totally out of your ass. You then talk about "being unable to see your target", and 'different things on the other dimension other than the thing that you wish to attack". Unfortunately, the ethereal plane does not work that way. These statements are either outright lies, or giant factual errors that prove you didn't even do the most basic bit of reading on what you're commenting on, and instead are just spouting things out randomly. Which is it? [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] 03:15, 24 July 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::::::::::::::: I'm not sure which link you speak of, as there are two in my comment. Perhaps you speak of Fighters. You're right, that one is unclear. I edited the link to go to the d20 SRD, which clearly states, "A fighter must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums." Or maybe you speak of the link to the MM Feat thing? "A monster gains feats just as a character does. Sometimes a creature has one or more bonus feats, marked with a superscript B (B). Creatures often do not have the prerequisites for a bonus feat. If this is so, the creature can still use the feat. If you wish to customize the creature with new feats, you can reassign its other feats, but not its bonus feats. A creature cannot have a feat that is not a bonus feat unless it has the feat’s prerequisites." Repeated use of the word creature implies that this is a racial statistic, as does the clarification that you CANNOT change the feat. (Which implies that it is inherent to the creature's concept, which would mean inherent to its race.) Regardless, still goes to lengths to specify why you get the feat for "free." Rogue bonus feat doesn't, and seeing as it comes after the Fighter bonus feat in the PHB and given the way avoiding redundancy is nice, it seems very unlikely that you can take epic feats at level 10 without meeting prereqs. I didn't say you had a 50% miss chance, I said you couldn't see your target 50% of the time because you were on another plane of existence 50% of the time. [[User:Hardcore Heathen|Hardcore Heathen]] 03:31, 24 July 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::::::::::::::::Yes, I meant the fighter link first. Which outright didn't point to anything even CLOSE to what you were referencing, and anyone in the history can see that. I'll let Surgo handle the bit about racial feats, as he's calmer and more intelligent than I am, although I imagine he doesn't like being called a liar by someone who IS a liar. And sure, you didn't say a 50% miss chance, ok, my bad. But where the hell are you getting the "can't see the target 50% of the time" thing from? That's not how the ethereal plane works. That's outright made up. Making things up in a debate is not a good tactic. [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] 03:34, 24 July 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:::::::::::::::::In addition, do NOT edit my quotes again. I don't tolerate that sort of shit, especially when your very first post ever contained outright insults to one of our smartest community members. [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] 03:37, 24 July 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::::::::::::::::First off, let's agree to stop indenting more; these responses are getting to be like 5 words wide :P. And my previous link was a link to this wiki. Wikis have a tendency to be innacurate; people like you and I can edit anything, so I changed it to the D20 SRD, which IS an official source document, which DOES say that you must meet the prerequisites for bonus feats. On the ethereal plane: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm#theEtherealPlane would seem to say that the Ethereal Plane is really darn foggy, and your ability to see the Material Plane is very much impaired. (The Plane itself, not specific objects, mind.) One would also think momentary bursts of zero gravity would do horrible things to your balance. Hence why you have 20% miss rate, as stated in the Blink spell - it may or may not be because your attacks are Blinking; it could be because constantly dimension hopping is slightly disorienting. Furthermore, the Blink spell, unlike Enlarge Person, does not specify that objects leaving your person stop Blinking. (When did I edit your quote? If I did, it was when I was trying to make my 2nd post, which was complicated by the page having changed by the time I made the post. Looking at the page history, I don't see any section where your posts change except to reflect something that you added.) And I would think that the phrase "lying liar that lies" is clearly humorous and light-hearted, pointing out more that the interpretation is wrong than that Surgo is purposely misleading people. I don't think he's a liar. I think he's wrong. [[User:Hardcore Heathen|Hardcore Heathen]] 03:53, 24 July 2009 (MDT)<br />
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{{Discussion Indentation Revert}}<br />
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:There was nothing about the wiki that made it "inaccurate". You picked a random link, and claimed it said something it didn't. You obviously did not read over the link you were posting as "proof". It had nothing to do with anyone editing in anything in the wiki, indeed, this wiki is a reliable source on what the SRD says. The problem was that you were just plugging in a random thing in the search, hoping it lead to what you said, and claimed that it solved the problem. My point on the ethereal plane is that it's not, and to quote you, "can't see targets 50% of the time". The 3.0 PHB shows a picture of the ethereal plane. While I'm not certain, I'm guessing the 3.5 PHB does as well. It's definitely not in the "can't see" range. Yes, it's fuzzy and indistinct, but you're making it be much worse than it actually is with your wording. It was your 9:30, 24 July edit that edited significant portions of my post. In addition, your "lying liar" thing did not come off as humorous - as someone who's new, coming into a discussion with that kind of rhetoric doesn't come off as funny, it comes off as you being extremely aggressive. Which is why I was aggressive back, especially when your links did not say what you claim they did. [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] 04:11, 24 July 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:: In short, the question as far as the ethereal plane is concerned, could be boiled down to the question, "If you pick up a rock on the material plane, blink to the ethereal plane, and drop it, where does the rock end up?" In my opinion, Blink works by shifting you completely between planes, and allows you to transport inanimate objects with them staying on the plane where they're dropped. Thus, if one were to throw a dagger while on the ethereal plane, it would stay on that plane. However, this could be interpreted the other way, that since it left the grasp of the person who was originally blinking it returns to its normal "state" and returns to the Material Plane. I don't think that would happen, but it could easily be up to a DM's interpretation. (Note: If what I said about is true, that would only mean that thrown daggers while under the blink spell would have a 20% miss chance, since you only spend 20% of the time on the ethereal plane, as per the Blink spell. However, note that this would also be foiled by anyone under the See Invisible spell, since they'd be able to see you the whole time and wouldn't lose their dexterity bonus to AC when attacked.)<br />
:: That said, let's try to keep personal attacks out of it? There's not much point to them on an online forum where everyone's anonymous, and it's doubtful we'd say the same thing to someone to their face, so let's try to keep civil here. --[[User:Ghostwheel|Ghostwheel]] 03:56, 24 July 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:::Indeed. If it was just a poor attempt at humor, I was too harsh. However, it was not immediately apparent - indeed, the most famous (and only other) use of "lying liars" that I can think of, while humorous, IS also referring to its subjects as liars. [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] 04:11, 24 July 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::::OK, I am not trying to start a debate here. I understand where you are coming from, I am just saying that your interpretation is off. The description of bonus feats are indeed stated as Hardcore Heathen put it:<br />
{{quote|A monster gains feats just as a character does. Sometimes a creature has one or more bonus feats, marked with a superscript B (B). Creatures often do not have the prerequisites for a bonus feat. If this is so, the creature can still use the feat. If you wish to customize the creature with new feats, you can reassign its other feats, but not its bonus feats. A creature cannot have a feat that is not a bonus feat unless it has the feat’s prerequisites.|src=MM page 7}}<br />
::::Also, I agree about the fact that the rogue bonus feat comes after the fighters. Besides the rogues doesn't state anything about not having to ignore prerequisites, which if you look at the other classes that gain bonus feats (the monk, the ranger, and the wizard) you can see that they either state that they ignore the prerequisites or like what the fighter and wizard both state that they must meet all prerequisites of bonus feats. Now for [[SRD:Blink|Blink]], it does state that you have a miss chance to attacks:<br />
{{quote|Likewise, your own attacks have a 20% miss chance, since you sometimes go ethereal just as you are about to strike.|src=Blink Spell}}<br />
::::And it even states that you are on the ethereal plane 50% of the time.<br />
{{quote|Since you spend about half your time on the Ethereal Plane, you can see and even attack ethereal creatures.|src=Blink Spell}}<br />
::::The fact that your attacks are incorporeal attacks 20% of the time mean that you can not gain sneak attack, since:<br />
{{quote|A rogue can sneak attack only living creatures with discernible anatomies—undead, constructs, oozes, plants, and incorporeal creatures lack vital areas to attack.|src=Rogue Sneak Attack}}<br />
::::and<br />
{{quote|Likewise, your own attacks have a 20% miss chance, since you sometimes go ethereal just as you are about to strike.|src=Blink Spell}}<br />
::::It even states right there that in the text of Blink, that since you are going between the ethereal and material planes you are considered incorporeal 50% of the time, and incorporeal attacks against a corporeal creature has the same miss chance and negatives as those against it:<br />
{{quote|Normally, creatures on the Ethereal Plane cannot attack creatures on the Material Plane, and vice versa.|src=Ethereal Plane}}<br />
::::The description of the ethereal plane says it straight forward. Unless you have ghost touch or some other ability similar (such as the Ninjas Ghost Strike) your attacks will miss 20%, due to the fact that the attacks are incorporeal. <br />
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::::Also I never stated that the rock would continue to Blink, if anything it would stay on whatever plane you were on at the time, 50% material, 50% ethereal. So I would say that if you dropped the rock you would roll d% and determine what plane it is on. Because based on what you said if you were to Plane Shift and drop the rock it would return to the material plane, which would not happen, it would remain on what ever plane you dropped it on. The spell blink actually takes you to the ethereal plane so you are actually there and so is the rock, just like if you were to use the plane shift spell, except that you are only there for a short period of time. And if you were to pick up a rock it would start to Blink as well, since it is with you and you are traveling to the ethereal plane. Blink is not it own effect, it doesn't provide its own bonuses, it just takes you to another plane and back quickly, the bonuses you gain are because you are incorporeal part of the time. Blinking is just the term used to represent the idea of shifting between the material and ethereal planes quickly.<br />
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::::About Blink being of the same line of spells as Enlarge Person, that is not true. It is a transmutation spell but it is in no way similar to Enlarge Person. As stated above Blink does not give you your own bonuses as Enlarge Person does, the spell actually doesn't give you any sorta bonus, it only has you switching between the material and ethereal planes, the bonuses are granted from the fact that you are considered incorporeal 50% of the time. <br />
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::::I am sorry for so much text but you don't seem to want to accept that this build wouldn't work without some changes, so I had to pull quotes and rules from many sources. -[[User:Sarrow|Sarrow]] 13:17, 24 July 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::::: I agree with you for the most part, except for the last part. You'd suffer a 20% miss chance on attacks (due to being on the Ethereal plane) but you would still be able to sneak attack since you only lose sneak attack if the enemy has concealment, and the 20% miss chance is due to being on a different plane, and not because you can't see the enemy clearly. (Since you can see things on the Material Plane ''fairly'' clearly from the Ethereal Plane.) But I do agree with you for the most part as far as the rest goes. --[[User:Ghostwheel|Ghostwheel]] 13:26, 24 July 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::::::OK, that is true, but you don't get sneak attack against someone without a discernible anatomy and being ethereal (incorporeal) means that all creatures on the material plane are considered incorporeal to you: <br />
{{quote|A rogue can sneak attack only living creatures with '''discernible anatomies'''—undead, constructs, oozes, plants, and '''incorporeal''' creatures lack vital areas to attack.|src=Rogue Sneak Attack}}<br />
{{quote|A traveler on the Ethereal Plane is invisible, '''incorporeal''', and utterly silent to someone on the Material Plane.|src=Ethereal Plane}}<br />
{{quote|Normally, creatures on the Ethereal Plane cannot attack creatures on the Material Plane, and vice versa.|src=Ethereal Plane}}<br />
{{quote|Likewise, they cannot manipulate objects or exert physical force on objects.|src=Incorporeality}}<br />
::::::So with all of this, you could say that since you are ethereal, you are also incorporeal, since you are incorporeal you can not manipulate objects on the material plane or affect them and can not attack creatures on the material plane. So since you can not attack the creatures on the material plane since to you they are the insubstancial creatures, you do not get sneak attack, since they are considered to not have a discernible anatomy to you. -[[User:Sarrow|Sarrow]] 13:41, 24 July 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::You're incorporeal, so you can't manipulate objects on the material plane--that's the 20% chance. You're only actually on the ethereal plane 20% of the time. Not 50% of the time, since that comes from appearing to "blink" out of the material plane, but 20% since things that can see into the ethereal plane have only a 20% chance of missing you. The 50% chance is a combination of the concealment and the movement to the ethereal plane, not just being on the material plane, which accounts for 20% of the time. (Sorry if I'm being redundant, beginning to fade as it's pretty late where I am currently.) The lack of concealment is from the text [[Ethereal_Plane|here]] where it says, "The Material Plane itself is visible from the Ethereal Plane..." (Since it doesn't give any mechanical penalties to vision, creatures on the material plane gain no concealment.) --[[User:Ghostwheel|Ghostwheel]] 13:47, 24 July 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::::::OK, at first I said concealment, then I realized I was mistaken when I thought that all miss chances are considered concealment. I then started talking about the fact that when you are on the ethereal plane all material objects and enemies are considered insubstancial. (the reason you can't attack them or manipulate them, and you pass right through them) Insubstancial means that they don't have discernible anatomies, which means you don't get sneak attack. Now this could easily be solved with ghost touch weapons or the gauntlets of ghost fighting. (MIC page 216; part of the Wraith's Woe set)<br />
::::::::Also Blink does states that you are on the ethereal plane 50% of the time:<br />
{{quote|Since you spend about half your time on the Ethereal Plane...|src=Blink Spell}}<br />
::::::::Half means 50%. -[[User:Sarrow|Sarrow]] 14:40, 24 July 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::::::: If it's half... then why do your attacks while under the Blink spell miss only 20% of the time? If it was truly half, they should miss 50% of the time, and people, even under the effect of See Invisibility, should still miss you 50% of the time. The "about half" is flavor. Mechanically, it's 20%. --[[User:Ghostwheel|Ghostwheel]] 14:44, 24 July 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::::::::It could be because your whole turn is not spent on a single attack. You also move or make additional attacks. The 20% miss chance is per attack, now if it were only on their 20% of the time it would be 20% miss chance divided between all attacks made. And this doesn't count moving into as well, which some of that movement is spend in the ethereal plane. So if you have three attacks you actually have 60% per attack to hit so you would have only about a 22% chance to hit with all attacks, and a 36% chance to hit with two out of three. -[[User:Sarrow|Sarrow]] 14:52, 24 July 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::::::Sarrow. Your logic appears to be "If you are on the ethereal plane, you are incorporeal", and "Rogues cannot sneak attack incorporeal creatures", correct? Great. Now, provide a source that says that a blinking rogue treats other people as if they were incorporeal. An incorporeal rogue is still allowed to sneak attack, something you're claiming is not true using very twisted logic that has obvious holes in it. You keep stating a premise that the conclusions do not accurately back up. In addition, blink has actual rules on if you are or are not allowed to attack creatures on the material plane. For you to suggest a blinking creature cannot attack creatures on the material plane is an outright houserule, and has no purpose in this discussion. [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] 16:18, 24 July 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::::::::::Seems like everybody else has taken over for me just fine, but it also appears that the fact that '''ethereal''' and '''incorporeal''' are two different words that mean two different things in Dungeons and Dragons.<br />
<br />
::::::::::::: On the Blink matter? Sure. But I think just about everyone agrees that you couldn't get Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting (which isn't even a 3.5 feat, but a 3.0 one) with the rogue's level 10 bonus feat ability, since the MM explanation of bonus feat applies to racial bonus feats which are automatically received as part of one's race, and thus don't need to have their prerequisites filled. That, and you'd still suffer a 20% miss chance while blinking. --[[User:Ghostwheel|Ghostwheel]] 20:27, 24 July 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::::::::: "(which isn't even a 3.5 feat, but a 3.0 one)" So? --[[User:TK-Squared|TK-Squared]] 20:40, 24 July 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::::::::::::: I know many DMs who consider 3.0 material broken (mostly due to what Haste was back in the day), and treat it as though it was Homebrew material as far as allowing stuff from it, is what I meant. --[[User:Ghostwheel|Ghostwheel]] 20:54, 24 July 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
<br />
::::::::::::::::Not only do you not suffer a 20% miss chance for ranged weapons, which I and others already went over extensively, but the Epic Level Handbook was updated for 3.5 when it was included in the 3.5 SRD. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 20:56, 24 July 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
<br />
::::::::::::::::: seriously, it says right there on the page of blink that you suffer a 20% miss chance... i mean, you ready your weapon, aim, and oops you're on the wrong plane, sorry mate<br />
<br />
::::::::::::::::::I'm with Ghostwheel on this one, I don't see anywhere that it says blink doesn't affect ranged attacks, I'd also like to point out that in the Epic Level Handbook it specifies that you MUST meet all prerequisites for epic feats or you lose the benefit of the feat. And if you say that a character can get Perfect Two Weapon Fighting with the rogue special ability show me a npc character that has a feat that they don't qualify for. Also the 20% miss chance is equivalent to [http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#concealment concealment] so technically yes you could say opponents have concealment against you while blink is in effect. --[[User:PixieDragon|PixieDragon]] 07:22, 14 October 2010 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:No. Blink specifically says that your miss chance is due to sometimes phasing out right as you strike, not due to concealment. You can see the enemy perfectly and can line up a strike, but your weapon may sometimes phase out at an inconvenient moment. They do not have concealment to you, but you do have a penalty which is part of what concealment inflicts. The justification for Blink not applying to ranged weapons is Blink has to affect your equipment, even if it doesn't actually say so. Otherwise you leave behind a pile of clothes and armor and can't use even a melee weapon you're holding since you're now ethereal about half the time and you'd have to use unarmed strikes while you're Blinked. I doubt you'd rule ''that'' way, would you? But Blink doesn't have any guidelines for how to handle things that you drop/leave your possession, so the nearest rule for that is Enlarge Person, which states items that leave your possession are no longer affected by the magic. That, at the very least, is a consistent interpretation of the rules for transmutation spells, that transmuted things which leave your possession stop being affected by the magic. With Blink, it happens to be a beneficial feature of the D&D physics. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 10:32, 14 October 2010 (MDT)</div>Genowhirlhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Fire_Mage_(3.5e_Class)&diff=490187Fire Mage (3.5e Class)2010-09-26T18:14:33Z<p>Genowhirl: Undo revision 490186 by 199.79.170.163 (talk) That ability actually doesn't need to be buffed</p>
<hr />
<div>{{stub|Missing 5 levels, epic, and much information found in the preload.}}<br />
{{DnD Base Class Infobox<br />
|img=Pyromancer.jpg<br />
|imgloc=top<br />
|imgsize=300px<br />
|imgcaption="If you can't take the heat..."<br />
|rating_power=5<br />
|raters_power=1<br />
|rating_wording=5<br />
|raters_wording=1<br />
|rating_formatting=<br />
|raters_formatting=<br />
|rating_flavor=<br />
|raters_flavor=<br />
|authors=[[User:Frank and K|Frank and K]]<br />
|datecreated=2007<br />
|status=Complete<br />
|editing=Spelling and grammar only<br />
|type=Spontaneous Spellcasting<br />
|desc=A Fire Mage is a guy who likes fire a lot, and also doesn't completely suck.<br />
}}<br />
<br />
==Fire Mage==<br />
{{quote|Yes, fire ''is'' cool.}}<br />
<br />
A Fire Mage is someone who burns their own soul out to burn the bodies of others. Tactically, they shine against groups of enemies, because fires spread across the battlefield like a plague.<br />
<br />
===Making a Fire Mage===<br />
<br />
'''Alignment:''' Fire is a destructive force, and a lot of Fire Mages are Chaotic. But they don't have to be.<br />
<br />
'''Races:''' Fire Mages appear in all races, though significant portions of many races live in areas where being a Fire Mage is illegal.<br />
<br />
'''Starting Gold:''' 6d6&times;10 gp (210 gp).<br />
<br />
'''[[SRD:Race Descriptions#Starting Age|Starting Age]]:''' As [[SRD:Rogue|Rogue]].<br />
<br />
{| class="{{d20}}"<br />
|+<br />
<div>{{#anc:Table: The Fire Mage}}</div><br />
Hit Die: d8<br />
|-<br />
! rowspan="2" | Level<br />
! rowspan="2" | [[BAB|Base<br/>Attack Bonus]]<br />
! colspan="3" | [[SRD:Saving Throw|Saving Throw]]s<br />
! rowspan="2" | Special<br />
|-<br />
! [[SRD:Saving Throw#Fortitude|Fort]] || [[SRD:Saving Throw#Reflex|Ref]] || [[SRD:Saving Throw#Will|Will]]<br />
|-<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|1st|| class="left" | +0 || +2 || +2 || +2<br />
| class="left" | [[#Fire Resistance|Fire Resistance]], [[#Fire Burst|Fire Burst]], [[#Fire Bolts|Fire Bolts]], [[#Impress Flames|Impress Flames]], [[#Fire Magic|Fire Magic]]<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|2nd|| class="left" | +1 || +3 || +3 || +3<br />
| class="left" | [[#Ignite|Ignite]]<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|3rd|| class="left" | +2 || +3 || +3 || +3<br />
| class="left" | [[#Piercing Flames|Piercing Flames]], [[#Hand of Fire|Hand of Fire]]<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|4th||class="left" | +3 || +4 || +4 || +4<br />
| class="left" | [[#Fire Immunity|Fire Immunity]], [[#Smokeless Flame|Smokeless Flame]]<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|5th||class="left" | +3 || +4 || +4 || +4<br />
| class="left" | [[#Fireballs|Fireballs]]<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|6th||class="left" | +4 || +5 || +5 || +5<br />
| class="left" | [[#Mindfire|Mindfire]]<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|7th||class="left" | +5 || +5 || +5 || +5<br />
| class="left" | [[#Visions of Flame|Visions of Flame]]<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|8th||class="left" | +6/+1 || +6 || +6 || +6<br />
| class="left" | [[#Soul of Cinders|Soul of Cinders]]<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|9th||class="left" | +6/+1 || +6 || +6 || +6<br />
| class="left" | [[#Sculpt Flames|Sculpt Flames]]<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|10th||class="left" | +7/+2 || +7 || +7 || +7<br />
| class="left" | [[#Conflagration|Conflagration]]<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|11th||class="left" | +8/+3 || +7 || +7 || +7<br />
| class="left" | [[#Beacon|Beacon]], [[#Firewalk|Firewalk]]<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|12th||class="left" | +9/+4 || +8 || +8 || +8<br />
| class="left" | [[#Bonds of Fire|Bonds of Fire]]<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|13th||class="left" | +9/+4 || +8 || +8 || +8<br />
| class="left" | [[#Fire Clouds|Fire Clouds]]<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|14th||class="left" | +10/+5 || +9 || +9 || +9<br />
| class="left" | [[#Searing Light|Searing Light]], [[#Ray of Light|Ray of Light]]<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|15th||class="left" | +11/+6/+6 || +9 || +9 || +9<br />
| class="left" | [[#Sending|Sending]], [[#Rain of Fire|Rain of Fire]]<br />
|}<br />
'''Class Skills (4 + [[SRD:Intelligence|Int]] modifier per level, &times;4 at 1st level)'''<br/><br />
Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Concentration (Con), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (-), Ride (Dex), Search (Int), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), and Use Rope (Dex).<br />
<br />
====Class Features====<br />
<br />
All of the following are class features of the Fire Mage.<br />
<br />
'''Weapon and Armor Proficiency:''' Fire Mages are proficient with all simple weapons, as well as the whip, all martial axes, and all sizes and varieties of scimitar (including falchions). Fire Mages are proficient with light armor but not with shields of any kind.<br />
<br />
'''{{#anc:Fire Resistance}} ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Extraordinary|Ex]]):''' A Fire Mage has a Resistance to Fire equal to twice his level.<br />
<br />
'''''{{#anc:Fire Burst}}'' ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Spell-Like|Sp]]):''' As a standard action, a Fire Mage can emit a burst of flame from his body, striking all creatures and objects within 10' of his position except himself. This burst of flames inflicts 1d6 of fire damage, with an allowed Reflex Save for half (DC 10 + {{1/2}} Level + Charisma Modifier).<br />
<br />
'''''{{#anc:Fire Bolts}}'' ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Spell-Like|Sp]]):''' A fire mage can throw bolts of fire as an attack action. A fire bolt travels out to short range, and inflicts 1d6 of fire damage per level. A fire bolt strikes its target with a ranged touch attack.<br />
<br />
'''{{#anc:Impress Flames}} ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Extraordinary|Ex]]):''' Every time a Fire Mage inflicts Fire damage on any target, whether with his class abilities or another source of fire, he inflicts an amount of extra Fire Damage equal to his class level or his Charisma modifier, whichever is less.<br />
<br />
'''{{#anc:Fire Magic}} ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Extraordinary|Ex]]):''' A Fire Mage is considered to have every spell with the Fire Descriptor on his spell list for the purpose of activating magic items.<br />
<br />
'''''{{#anc:Ignite}}'' ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Spell-Like|Sp]]):''' As a standard action, a 2nd level Fire Mage can cause any creature or object to burst into flame. A creature on fire suffers 1d6 of Fire damage per round (the Mage's Impress Flames ability applies to each round of course), and the creature can attempt to put itself out with a DC 15 Reflex save (see the DMG, p. 303). This ability can be used out to Medium range, and it always hits.<br />
<br />
'''{{#anc:Piercing Flames}} ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Extraordinary|Ex]]):''' From 3rd level on, a Fire Mage's Fire cuts through Fire Resistance, hardness, and Immunity. No more than {{1/2}} of the damage inflicted by his fire damage can be negated by hardness or immunity or resistance to Fire. In addition, the Fire Mage ignores the first 5 points of Fire Resistance that a target has.<br />
<br />
'''{{#anc:Hand of Fire}} ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Supernatural|Su]]):''' A 3rd level Fire Mage can set fire to their own body, causing them to count as armed at all times, even with unarmed attacks. The Fire Mage also causes an extra 1d6 of Fire damage with all melee attacks.<br />
<br />
'''{{#anc:Fire Immunity}} ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Extraordinary|Ex]]):''' A 4th level Fire Mage is immune to Fire.<br />
<br />
'''''{{#anc:Smokeless Flame}}'' ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Spell-Like|Sp]]):''' A 4th level Fire Mage can create fires that produce no heat and do not burn. These fires can be anything from the size of a torch to a bonfire, and produce light accordingly. Each lasts until the next time the sun rises. Smokeless Flame can be created anywhere within Medium range.<br />
<br />
'''''{{#anc:Fireballs}}'' ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Spell-Like|Sp]]):''' A 5th level Fire Mage can hurl explosive fire anywhere within Long Range as a Full Round Action. This Fire explodes into a 20' radius burst and inflicts 1d6 of Fire Damage per level. All creatures within the area are entitled to a Reflex save to halve damage (DC 10 + {{1/2}} Level + Charisma Modifier).<br />
<br />
'''''{{#anc:Mindfire}}'' ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Spell-Like|Sp]]):''' A 6th level Fire Mage can start a Fire in a creature's mind, duplicating the effects of ''[[SRD:Rage|rage]]'' or ''[[SRD:Confusion|confusion]]'' for a number of minutes equal to his Level. The victim must be within Medium Range, and is entitled to a Will Save to negate this effect (DC 10 + {{1/2}} Level + Charisma Modifier). This is a Mind influencing Compulsion effect.<br />
<br />
'''''{{#anc:Visions of Flame}}'' ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Spell-Like|Sp]]):''' A 7th level Fire Mage can ''[[SRD:Contact Other Plane|contact other plane]]'' to communicate with the denizens of the Elemental Plane of Fire. A Fire Mage is in no danger of becoming insane or damaged by this experience.<br />
<br />
'''''{{#anc:Soul of Cinders}}'' ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Spell-Like|Sp]]):''' An 8th level Fire Mage has burnt his soul to ash, and is no longer susceptible to Energy Drain or Fear.<br />
<br />
'''''{{#anc:Sculpt Flames}}'' ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Spell-Like|Sp]]):''' A 9th level Fire Mage can create delicate shapes and walls made of fire. The Fire is fully shapeable, but cannot pass through more than 2 squares per level. Any creature passing through a square with fire in it suffers 1d6 of fire damage per level. A creature which is in a square that is being filled with fire is entitled to a Reflex Save (DC 10 + {{1/2}} Level + Charisma Modifier) to move to the nearest non-flaming square as an immediate action. These fires persist for 1 round per level. Alternately, the Fire Mage can replicate a ''[[SRD:Wall of Fire|wall of fire]]'' which persists for 1 minute per level.<br />
<br />
'''''{{#anc:Conflagration}}'' ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Spell-Like|Sp]]):''' At 10th level, a Fire Mage can surround himself with a nimbus of flames that extends for 10' in all directions from his person. All other targets in this area suffer a d10 of Fire Damage per level, but are entitled to a Reflex Save (DC 10 + {{1/2}} Level + Charisma Modifier). In addition, a Fire Mage can cast ''[[SRD:Fire Shield|fire shield]]'' at will (Hot Shield only).<br />
<br />
'''''{{#anc:Beacon}}'' ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Spell-Like|Sp]]):''' An 11th level Fire Mage can create a magically permanent bonfire as a standard action. He always knows exactly where each Beacon he has created is and will know if it is put out by any means.<br />
<br />
'''''{{#anc:Firewalk}}'' ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Spell-Like|Sp]]):''' At 11th level a Fire Mage can walk into any fire large enough to fit his person and appear in any other fire that is likewise of sufficient size anywhere on any plane of existence. The Fire Mage must know where the target fire is. The Fire Mage can take any number of willing creatures or carried objects that are also able to fit in both flames.<br />
<br />
'''''{{#anc:Bonds of Fire}}'' ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Spell-Like|Sp]]):''' A 12th level Fire Mage can craft solid fire and entrap a victim in it. The bonds will immobilize a creature which fails a Reflex Save (DC 10 + {{1/2}} Level + Charisma Modifier), and will ''[[SRD:Entangle|entangle]]'' the creature unless it succeeds in its save by more than 5. A creature can attempt to escape by taking a Full round action to make a Strength or Escape Artist test with a DC equal to the [[SRD:Use Rope|Use Rope]] Skill Result of the Fire Mage. The victim suffers 20 points of Fire Damage per round, and the bonds of fire last until the victim escapes or the Fire Mage dismisses them.<br />
<br />
'''''{{#anc:Fire Clouds}}'' ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Spell-Like|Sp]]):''' As a Full Round Action, a 13th level Fire Mage can create huge billowing clouds of Fire. The Fire Clouds must be created within Long range, and persist for 3 rounds whether they are still in range or not. The cloud is shapeable, and covers at most 3 10' cubes per Level. Each round, everyone and everything inside the cloud suffers 1d6 of Fire damage per level, but is entitled to a Reflex save for half damage (DC 10 + {{1/2}} Level + Charisma Modifier).<br />
<br />
'''''{{#anc:Searing Light}}'' ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Spell-Like|Sp]]):''' A 14th level Fire Mage can call levels of illumination that are painful and destructive as the unmitigated baleful glare of the sun itself. All darkness within 5 miles is dispelled, and everything is illuminated. All undead suffer 10 points of damage per round. All creatures specifically vulnerable to light suffer 10 damage per round (thus, vampires suffer 20 damage per round). All creatures are [[SRD:Dazzled|Dazzled]]. Creatures must pass a Fortitude save (DC 10 + {{1/2}} Level + Charisma Modifier) every minute or become [[SRD:Blinded|blind]] for the remainder of the effect. Creatures that are blinded when the effect ends are entitled to another Fortitude save to get their vision back, but if they fail this save the blinding is permanent. This effect lasts until the Fire Mage dismisses it or he is incapacitated.<br />
<br />
'''''{{#anc:Ray of Light}}'' ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Spell-Like|Sp]]):''' As an attack action, a 14th level Fire Mage can fire a ray of Light at any target within Short Range. It inflicts 1d6 of Light Damage per level if it hits with a Ranged Touch Attack. Undead take 10 extra damage. Creatures specifically vulnerable to Light suffer an additional 10 damage.<br />
<br />
'''''{{#anc:Sending}}'' ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Spell-Like|Sp]]):''' A 15th level Fire Mage can send a message, as the ''[[SRD:Sending|sending]]'' spell to any creature on any plane of existence with a standard action and receive a reply even if they are on different planes of existence.<br />
<br />
'''''{{#anc:Rain of Fire}}'' ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Spell-Like|Sp]]):''' At 15th level, the Fire Mage can open the skies and dump raw inferno upon all who would oppose him. The fires inflict 1d6 of Fire Damage per level, and victims are permitted a Reflex save (DC 10 + {{1/2}} level + Charisma Modifier). The Fire Mage chooses which squares are struck with fire, and the only limits to how many squares can burn is how many squares the Fire Mage can see. There are no range limits to this power save line of sight.<br />
<br />
===External Links===<br />
* [http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?p=40214 Source]<br />
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{{DnD Base Classes Breadcrumb}}<br />
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[[Category:Tome]]</div>Genowhirlhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Fiendish_Brute_(3.5e_Class)&diff=489792Talk:Fiendish Brute (3.5e Class)2010-09-21T17:00:13Z<p>Genowhirl: </p>
<hr />
<div>== Wikify? ==<br />
What, exactly, is wrong with it as-is? [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 15:46, 11 October 2008 (MDT)<br />
:Well, I did some 'wikification' but as the policy isn't exactly enumerated anywhere it's hard to say if it's right or not. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 10:16, 12 October 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== Rating ==<br />
<br />
'''Power - 5/5''' I give this class a 5 out of 5 because it is very difficult to kind a fault in one of Frank & K's classes. &rarr; [[User:Rithaniel|<span style=color:Gray; -moz-border-radius-topleft:25px; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px">Rith</span>]]<sup> [[User talk:Rithaniel|<span style=color:black; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px; -moz-border-radius-topleft:20px">(talk)</span>]]</sup> 00:34, 18 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
'''Wording - 5/5''' I give this class a 5 out of 5 because it is very easy to understand. &rarr; [[User:Rithaniel|<span style=color:Gray; -moz-border-radius-topleft:25px; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px">Rith</span>]]<sup> [[User talk:Rithaniel|<span style=color:black; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px; -moz-border-radius-topleft:20px">(talk)</span>]]</sup> 00:34, 18 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
'''[[Help:Standards and Formatting (DnD Guideline)|Formatting]] - 5/5''' I give this class a 3 out of 5 because massive portions of the preload are missing, though, interwiki linking is decently comprehensive. (Also, you have one red link in the bonus feats section). &rarr; [[User:Rithaniel|<span style=color:Gray; -moz-border-radius-topleft:25px; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px">Rith</span>]]<sup> [[User talk:Rithaniel|<span style=color:black; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px; -moz-border-radius-topleft:20px">(talk)</span>]]</sup> 00:34, 18 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:This rating should now be changed as stuff was added. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 13:14, 24 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::Just got on, and you're right, this is most definently worth a 5. &rarr; [[User:Rithaniel|<span style=color:Gray; -moz-border-radius-topleft:25px; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px">Rith</span>]]<sup> [[User talk:Rithaniel|<span style=color:black; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px; -moz-border-radius-topleft:20px">(talk)</span>]]</sup> 09:54, 25 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
'''Flavor - 5/5''' I give this class a 5 out of 5 because the brute force of this class makes you agree with its flavor. &rarr; [[User:Rithaniel|<span style=color:Gray; -moz-border-radius-topleft:25px; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px">Rith</span>]]<sup> [[User talk:Rithaniel|<span style=color:black; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px; -moz-border-radius-topleft:20px">(talk)</span>]]</sup> 00:34, 18 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== Poor Bab? ==<br />
<br />
I was kinda imagining fiendish brute would have some kind of battle prowess. Poor bab make it weird, especially normal outsider get full bab. --[[User:Lord Dhazriel|Lord Dhazriel]] 01:38, 6 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:Well, when you crunch the numbers, this class technically could be getting a bonus to attack rolls equal to an average BAB, considering they get those constant bonuses to either strength, constitution, or dexterity. I personally think .5 BAB is fair here. &rarr; [[User:Rithaniel|<span style=color:Gray; -moz-border-radius-topleft:25px; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px">Rith</span>]]<sup> [[User talk:Rithaniel|<span style=color:black; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px; -moz-border-radius-topleft:20px">(talk)</span>]]</sup> 02:02, 6 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::I disagree. This class should be built around the concept of battle prowess, but it's just a fighter with a wizard's BAB that's been given slightly better ability improvements, and a nice, spiffy natural armor bonus. It deserves full BAB on the account that it is a battle-oriented class. Giving this class a wizard's BAB progression is like... well, giving a sorcerer levels in dragon disciple. What are sorcerers gonna do with that increased strength and intelligence, anyway? Also, I'd like to know if the natural armor bestowed by this class stacks with already existing sources of natural armor you might have. --[[User:Sulacu|Sulacu]] 08:24, 7 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::Rith is correct, it was given poor BAB so the numbers line up. Full BAB would push them off the d20. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 10:08, 7 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::Seriously. Not to mention this class can take Fiendish Feats to become Large and then Huge size, with the corresponding ability score adjustments (the real ones from creature progression, not the bonuses from stuff like Enlarge Self). If you want to make a melee workhorse, you can do it. He'll be slow attacking, but he'll hit like the hammer of God. As for the natural armor, I dunno. I think the rule is it doesn't, but I'd allow it in some circumstances...the one that comes to mind is if someone was playing a straight Brute and needed some extra AC to compensate for not wearing armor or having a shield (the class's Natty armor is...good, but they're still easy to hit from not being proficient in armor or shields.) --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 10:19, 7 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== Wow ==<br />
<br />
I have to hand it to Genowhirl, he made one really nice sample NPC. Probably the model of what a sample NPC should be. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 20:27, 26 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:Thank you very much. Anyway, as I said back on the Den, I've been making fiends for a friend's campaign lately, so I thought I'd take a crack at putting a few of them up as sample NPCs. Henda is going to be a boss encountered by that party when they're about level 5. It's only by coincidence that he has the Lizardfolk be important in the campaign setting's history. When he mentioned that, I remembered your Lizardfolk variant and suggested it. <br />
<br />
:Belg's going to show up in the game, too. So is a True Fiend 2/Conduit of the Lower Planes 9/Fire Mage 4, with the Pyre Sphere at Expert Access. Who I don't know if I'll put up as the sample NPC for the Conduit. He's, uh, extremely synergized and high level besides.<br />
<br />
:Henda's been changed slightly from what I gave to the DM. In that, I included stuff like picking up a big piece of rock and throwing it at someone as a ranged touch attack for a chunk of damage, once his HP is far enough down. Also, the DM had the Spines do shuriken damage. <br />
<br />
:Anyway, I've had this streak of motivation lately. I planted peas, got a part-time job with full-time benefits, wrote some Fiend Feats, made some NPCs...I hope this lasts... --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 20:42, 26 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== Rating == <br />
<br />
Power - 4.5/5 I give this class a 4.5 out of 5 because while it is farely balanced, it is a wee-bit strong. <br />
<br />
Wording - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because it is very well worded and quite easy to understand for the average player.<br />
<br />
Formatting - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because from what I could tell it is formatted both in accordance with the rules of DanDWiki, and with thought given to how it would look when finished.<br />
<br />
Flavor - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because the idea behind it is something that simply had to be done. The class has all the wonderful flavor of a human slow roasted in sage and thyme.<br />
<br />
== FIELD TEST ==<br />
Test it 1 weak ago, this class is overpowerd when once "reach lv 10 or more", it tears enemies apart. Other few fiends are just fine, except summoning. Few feats are badass with those guys, like HUGE FEAT, large feat goes with at least 1lv adj, huge is only with enlarge (unless ur druid). Try out this build: tail, large, huge, arms, arms, wings and place it agains anithing of his CR. Futhermore, there are things caled: templates. Compare them and lv adjustmet with this thing.<br />
Unplayable, overpowered. 07:11, 21 September 2010 (MDT)<br />
07:12, 21 September 2010 (MDT)[[User:Leviathan616|Leviathan616]]<br />
<br />
:You botched the test. He'd have to be level 12 to have two sets of Extra Arms. Why is your guy pulling it off at level 10? Also, I supposed it's faintly possible that if you burned your normal progression feats, you could take Wings, Large Size, Huge Size, and ''one'' Extra Arms by level 10. But since you only bring up six feats, and the Brute only gets five from class levels, it appears you didn't pay much attention to that, and he doesn't have enough feats between the levels of 5 and 10 to get those particular feats. So, you ''must'' have ignored the little bits at the tops of the feats which say "Prequisite: Character level X". I already know you ignored it for Extra Arms. That aside, you're going to have to pull out what monsters you threw at the guy. I'm rather sure you didn't throw him against the juvenile Red Dragon. Even the Noble Salamander is sort of tough. I'm also fairly sure you didn't send much at this guy that can force a Will Save. So, your test is invalidated by dint of not actually following the rules. You may want to go try it again before you start suggesting LA as anything actually sane or good. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 11:00, 21 September 2010 (MDT)</div>Genowhirlhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Races_of_War_(3.5e_Sourcebook)&diff=489552Talk:Races of War (3.5e Sourcebook)2010-09-17T17:27:10Z<p>Genowhirl: </p>
<hr />
<div>{{Featured Article Nominee}}<br />
<br />
This is the last of the Tomes. Sadly, it's incomplete (this is most noticeable in the Armor section), but I'm sure the reader could adapt or invent what he needs to. There's more that could be done--like making the appropriate charts and there's a section I left out--about a mass combat mini-game--because I didn't want to deal with the formatting just yet. That being said, I'm taking a break until I stop thinking in terms of wiki formatting. [[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 21:50, 12 May 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
==Feats kinda unfair==<br />
For example<br />
Murderous Intent: with this, All I need to do is be a monk and have you fail a fort save (stunning fist) and then you just die.<br />
<br />
:That is false. A Coup de Grace is a standard action, as is stunning them. You only get one standard action in a round. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 15:03, 7 September 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::I don't know about what he said, but the rules for Special Combat-whatever say Coup de Grace should be a critical hit. So I guess that would keep a Monk from doing the Stun-and-Slay option of Murderous Intent.<br />
<br />
And according to how I interpreted this, if I have a BAB of 16, all I have to do is just say I want a feat and then instantly I have full knowledge of how to do it amazingly? <br />
<br />
:Yep, that's the way they work. The Murderous Intent thing isn't as bad as you'd think. If we're talking about a PHB monk, he gets the ability to coup de gras a stunned enemy at level 15. And how many times have you seen a character actively try to stun someone else?<br />
:I realize that the full version of scaling feats can make people blink, because it seems such a huge step up in power (as well it is). But I think it's covered in the Failure of Feats section about how having feat chains pretty much reams any chance of diversifying your character and remaining level-appropriate, so all the feats were designed to provide options and bonuses that you'd actually care about at the level you get them.<br />
:I understand Frank and K designed their classes so that one alone is able to go, on average, 50/50 with monsters with CR equal to their level. That's not "easily win," that's "be able to win at all about half the time against level-appropriate monsters". And at high levels, monsters have some pretty crazy abilities, so if a character's going to be stay on the level-appropriate train, at high levels characters have to get abilities that are likewise a little crazy. It's not unreasonable, but it does require that you decide for yourself and your games what a character should be able to do at level 15.<br />
:To get an idea...Look up a Marut. It's in the SRD. It's got Dimension Door at will, so a combat person can't stay back and used range. It can cast Earthquake to turn you into an instant fossil and it can cast Plane Shift so if it wanted, it could actually ''send you to Hell'' and its melee abilities can either blind or stun you, as well as do 2d6 + 12 + 3d6....<br />
:...and at level 15, your character is supposed to be able to usefully contribute to the party being able to beat it while expending only 20% of their useable resources. If you're a PHB fighter or monk, good luck with that.[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 03:03, 8 November 2008 (MST)<br />
::Monks get abundant step at level 11, the marut is cr 15<br />
:::Are you really suggesting that the ability to Dimension Door once per day helps you keep up with a critter than can Dimension Door every round?<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
How about when you get the feat you start off with the first benefit. Then the next level if you meet the first BAB req, then you get that ability, then the next level, you get the next ability and so on and ect. So, if you meet the highest req, like 16 BAB, then you gain one ability from the feat each level. --[[User:T G Geko|T G Geko]] 15:09, 16 May 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:Well, you interpreted it right, although that is an interesting progression idea you have there. The point is that if you take a feat at a level between the upgrade points (which are levels 1, 6, 11, and 16 if you've got Full BAB or max ranks) you get an ability that's appropriate for you to have at your level. Basically, around the time you get to level 11 and definitely by the time you've reached level 16, you've reached that area of DnD known as CrazyTown, and CrazyTown does not much care for combat people--if you're going to be able to contribute against the monsters above level 10 as something other than a target to distract them from attacking the people who do the real damage...You're going to need some likewise crazy abilities. I'd suggest trying it out however it works for you, though. [[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 23:02, 22 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
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<br />
<br />
<br />
:Use the stuff here with whatever caveats you're comfortable with. Just understand that there are some basic assumptions underlying what's gone in here, and you might be surprised if you tried it as written.[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 22:24, 16 May 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::Couldn't we just use the old feats but make them available at every level? That would seem a lot simpler. Furthermore, it would allow characters to become more diversified without having this newer <br />
:::The old feats are awful. Compare Whirlwind Attack to the Fireball spell. At 7th level, a wizard can cast 3-4 Fireballs a day for 22 damage at range as a standard. A fighter can attack 8-15 enemies (if they all happen to surround him) with a Full Round action. These are not even remotely equivalent, and it only gets worse from there. {{Unsigned|163.181.251.115|10:17, 9 June 2008 (MDT)}}<br />
<br />
== Featured Article Nomination ==<br />
<br />
Frank and K stuff was always gold, I read this before and it's still tasty now. So I figured, why not? Give them a little bit in the spotlight, FA, here we go. -- [[User:Eiji|Eiji]] 21:04, 7 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
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'''Support''' &mdash; This article is well thought out and over-all well done. It is the type of article others should strive for.--[[User:Ramses IV|Ramses IV]] 21:07, 7 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
'''Support''' &mdash; I support this article, if you wanna know why, just read it.-[[User:Risek|Risek]] 21:48, 7 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:Sure, only...what is it? A campaign Setting or something? --[[User:Sir Milo Teabag|Sir Milo Teabag]] 13:32, 17 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::It's an article...thing about what rules work and what rules don't, with suggested changes to help things work better. There's three previous Tomes on here--the Tome of Necromancy, the Tome of Fiends, and the Dungeonomicon. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 09:04, 21 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
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'''Support''' &mdash; I wouldn't have posted this if I didn't think it was worthy of being on here. It helps melee characters actively contribute alongside the casters, and it's entertaining and thought-provoking besides. [[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 11:20, 25 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
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'''Support''' &mdash; and I came on to put this back in its original form. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 21:18, 31 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
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'''Comment''' &mdash; I think this page gets the award for longest table of contents. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 05:02, 8 November 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
:Ain't that the truth? But there's a lot of material and, well, if someone's going to use this, at least they have a quick reference/link. [[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 12:38, 10 November 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
::Actually, GreenDragon, this might be forward of me, but maybe you could set up a sub-category in D&D Other for the Frank & K Tome material? And then the articles could be split down into their component parts, and we wouldn't have these, for example, 206 KB articles to sort through.[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 20:59, 10 November 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
:::[[DnD Sourcebooks]] for all the sourcebooks on D&D Wiki. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 11:33, 6 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
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'''Support''': Now that I've broken it down into sub pages its much more manageable. The information is vast and would be a great addition to our main page. &nbsp;<small><span style="border: 1px solid blue; -moz-border-radius:10px">[[User:Hooper|'''<span style="background-color:White; color:FireBrick; -moz-border-radius-topleft:10px; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:10px"> Hooper </span>''']][[User talk:Hooper|<span style="background-color:red; color:blue; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:10px; -moz-border-radius-topleft:10px">&nbsp;&nbsp;talk&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Hooper|<span style="background-color:red; color:blue">&nbsp;&nbsp;contribs&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]][[Special:Emailuser/Hooper|<span style="background-color:red; color:blue; -moz-border-radius-bottomright:10px; -moz-border-radius-topright:10px">&nbsp;&nbsp;email&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]]</span></small> 08:01, 9 January 2009 (MST)<br />
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'''Support''': Just stumbled across this and all I can say is wow. Lots of interesting ideas and concepts put forth that I'd never really thought about before. [[User:Jota|Jota]] 10:11, 9 January 2009 (MST)<br />
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'''Comment''': It appears as if this one may have enough support to become the FA. &nbsp;<small><span style="border: 1px solid blue; -moz-border-radius:10px">[[User:Hooper|'''<span style="background-color:White; color:FireBrick; -moz-border-radius-topleft:10px; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:10px"> Hooper </span>''']][[User talk:Hooper|<span style="background-color:red; color:blue; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:10px; -moz-border-radius-topleft:10px">&nbsp;&nbsp;talk&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Hooper|<span style="background-color:red; color:blue">&nbsp;&nbsp;contribs&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]][[Special:Emailuser/Hooper|<span style="background-color:red; color:blue; -moz-border-radius-bottomright:10px; -moz-border-radius-topright:10px">&nbsp;&nbsp;email&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]]</span></small> 09:17, 14 January 2009 (MST)<br />
<br />
'''Comment''': Well, of course its great. Rarely is an article actually both interesting and fun to read (especially one this long, without it feeling like work). But, unfortunately, it has essentially no wiki formatting or language links. If its gonna be a Featured Article, its gonna need those. Additionally it would be nice to have an image for this article as well, something along the lines of a mocked-up book cover of sorts. Something professional looking to show off on the front page for being a Featured Article. --[[User:Ganteka|Ganteka]] 13:18, 11 February 2009 (MST)<br />
<br />
::The base classes should be links (they already exist on the Wiki), the PrCs also need to be split out. Aside from that, what else in terms of formatting needs to be improved? [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 13:20, 11 February 2009 (MST)<br />
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'''Comment''' &mdash; I think this needs to be made into a sourcebook, comparable to [[Arachonomicon; the Book of Spiderkind (4e Sourcebook)]] (just for 3.5e and included in a new section made for 3.5e sourcebooks). That should solve many of the formatting issues and make for a nicer presentation. As well as that it will no longer be in other. And then the categories could be changed. Instead of [[:Category:Tome]] it could be changed to [[:Category:Sourcebook]] and then [[:Category:Races of War Sourebook]] could be added to all of the corresponding pages. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 03:43, 14 March 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:For the sourcebook: sure. There was no sourcebook preload to begin with, which is why that didn't happen. In fact, there's still no Sourcebook preload or breadcrumb for 3.5e, only 4e. But as for the category change -- I'd have to say no. There is a decent amount of general 'Tome' stuff that doesn't actually fall into one of the four Tome sourcebooks. I also cannot edit the "Add new" page to make an entry for sourcebooks. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 10:43, 14 March 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::All the information on [[Dungeons and Dragons]] is actually pulled to from each individual page, so you can add [[DnD Sourcebooks]] (when made) to that page yourself (it uses [[Template:x0]]). Admin rights are not needed.<br />
::And about the tome category. What constitutes a tome then? Would [[Tome of Battle]], etc be in [[:Category:Tome]] too? I mean it is just a name attached onto sourcebooks. Although I see the problem. You want to make it so all the information from the three tomes from Frank and K is together in the same category. What if instead a category of [[:Category:Frank and K]] was added and then you could use a dpl to get the results you want. Also each sourcebooks would have their one category (like [[:Category:Races of War Sourcebook]], etc). --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 19:28, 14 March 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::Sorry about any confusion; Surgo and I and most of the people who use Frank and K's material tend to refer to it as 'Tome' Material (Tome of Necromancy, Tome of Fiends, Dungeonomicon, Races of War. There's also the incomplete Book of Gears and the odd bit written by one or the other when people ask or whatever). There's been some suggestions to name them collectively as 'Tome of Awesome' or similar, but none of the names have stuck. -- [[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 19:36, 14 March 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::So why not call it "Frank and K Material"? It would then also fit the same organizational structure as the the publication list (starting at somewhere like [[Publishers of d20 and D&D Products]] onwards), however on a new area created for Homebrew options. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 19:59, 14 March 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::::Two reasons: one, it's always been called "Tome" and second, there are more people writing stuff for it out there than just those two. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 21:15, 14 March 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::::Why is "Frank and K" given more credit then the other people behind the project? Why not just have each item have it's author attached all under the name of the sourcebook. So, for example, if [[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] made the [[Dragon Lancer (DnD Prestige Class)]] then he/she would have his/her name on it instead of "Frank and K". Keeping in mind that if "Frank and K" made the item they would have their name on it still, of course. And then all the items would be attached by the sourcebook category. It would be like if someone made something spider oriented for fourth edition, talked to [[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]], and got it added into [[Arachonomicon; the Book of Spiderkind (4e Sourcebook)]]. Almost the same idea as here, saving that this was just done earlier and not through D&D Wiki.<br />
::::::Although then what should be done to get all the sourcebooks made by "Frank and K" together? Simple. Since everything would be linked to by categories one can cross-reference them to get the results you want. This would produce the non-content pages of these sourcebooks.<br />
::::::<nowiki><DPL></nowiki><br />
::::::&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<nowiki>debug=1</nowiki><br />
::::::&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<nowiki>category=DnD</nowiki><br />
::::::&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<nowiki>category=User</nowiki><br />
::::::&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<nowiki>category=Sourebook</nowiki><br />
::::::&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<nowiki>category=Tome of Fiends Sourebook|Tome of Necromancy Sourcebook|Dungeonomicon Sourebook|Races of War Sourebook|Book of Gears Sourebook</nowiki><br />
::::::&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<nowiki>order=ascending</nowiki><br />
::::::<nowiki></DPL></nowiki><br />
::::::This would produce everything related to the "Frank and K" books.<br />
::::::<nowiki><DPL></nowiki><br />
::::::&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<nowiki>debug=1</nowiki><br />
::::::&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<nowiki>category=DnD</nowiki><br />
::::::&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<nowiki>category=Tome of Fiends Sourebook|Tome of Necromancy Sourcebook|Dungeonomicon Sourebook|Races of War Sourebook|Book of Gears Sourebook</nowiki><br />
::::::&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<nowiki>order=ascending</nowiki><br />
::::::<nowiki></DPL></nowiki><br />
::::::--[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 09:58, 15 March 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
'''Comment''' &mdash; This needs to be formatted as per the [[3.5e Sourcebook Preload]]. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 08:50, 25 March 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:It has now been made into a sourcebook and formatted correctly. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 00:14, 1 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::I know links were added to the classes, but why not do the same for all the other things which that can be done to? Such as the feats, races, etc. Not only does it make it so more people will see this sourcebook's material, but it also un-clutters a lot of the sub-pages. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 11:31, 6 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::For the feats...how could I make them even follow the normal feat template? The races don't really follow the preload very much -- most of those sections are unused. If that's fine, tell me and I'll work on splitting them out too, but I don't quite see the point of splitting out an entire sourcebook's content from the sourcebook itself. What's the point of even having a sourcebook section in that case? [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 12:44, 6 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::::If these races do not fit into the race preload (no fluff for example) then I agree they should just be kept as is. The reason for splitting up pages is so the content can be seen by more people and not just people who find this through [[DnD Sourcebooks]]. If you feel that they would not work as a stand-alone D&D creation (no fluff, different rule sets, etc) then just keep it on this page. But I would say move what you can (so more people see the contents). --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 12:55, 6 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
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'''Comment''' &mdash; All FA's need an image. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 11:32, 6 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:I'll dig one up. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 11:37, 6 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::Is this wiki allowed to use those free art samples they give out on the Wizards website? And a second question: Would a title image, rather than than an image of soldiers fighting, be allowable? --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 11:42, 6 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::What do you mean by a title image? Something like D&D Wiki's logo or something like the image on [[Arachonomicon; the Book of Spiderkind (4e Sourcebook)]] (with a title and image)? And I am not sure about the free art samples... I know we use one as our background and on a few other pages, but on wikipedia they just link to them and do not host them on their own servers. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 12:15, 6 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::::Yes, that's it. A logo. That's what I was thinking of. And, all ight on the images. If nothing else, I'll poke around and find an online artist with a suitably warlike picture and ask their permission. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 13:10, 6 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:Why, exactly? Some times, no image is appropriate. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 12:41, 6 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
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'''Support''': This "book" has really put things in perspective about the differences in power between magic and melee. --[[User:T G Geko|T G Geko]] 09:59, 7 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== Stop changing the mechanics ==<br />
<br />
Anonymous people need to stop going through and changing mechanics, especially mechanics they don't understand. I just went through and removed a bunch of unwarranted changes by a few anonymice and put the document back to the way it was originally. No typo correction, newly created tables, etc. were changed, just random edits that changed mechanics without reason. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 21:17, 31 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
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: I can protect it from IP if you like?--[[User:Lord Dhazriel|Lord Dhazriel]] 12:01, 14 January 2009 (MST)<br />
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==Tried to Straighten This Discussion Out==<br />
I noticed it was a little disorganized, and there were comments on here that were in the middle of other comments, so...yeah...[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 03:02, 8 November 2008 (MST)<br />
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==Picture==<br />
Thanks, Rith. That picture has just the right amount of cheese on it and...actually, there's no way he could be a background character, so that's another plus. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 09:55, 24 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
==Monster Conversions... not... making... sense==<br />
Could someone please help me with F&K's monster conversions? I tried following his steps in creating a PC-playable bugbear race, and I totally failed. I got a Bugbear with -2 Intelligence, and then I looked at their work and they had +4 Strength, +2 Constitution, +2 Dexterity, -2 Charisma... I don't understand. Please, halp! --[[User:For Valor|For Valor]] 11:06, 6 July 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:It's unsaid in the book, but the bugbear is one of the monsters that specifically was ''not'' built using the elite array (it uses the standard array instea). [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 12:15, 6 July 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::Alright, gotcha. So for future reference, when should I use the elite stat array and when should I use the standard one?<br />
<br />
:::Anything with no LA listed uses the elite array. The rest, unfortunately, is not so obvious and requires your best judgment. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 23:42, 6 July 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
==Picture Change==<br />
I've looked at the new one, waited a day or two, looked at it again...Decided I didn't like it. The other one wasn't exactly perfect, but it did have a cheesy retro look, like the early DnD box set covers--and it had the title of the article on it. Maybe the Tome Fighter page pic could be captioned or something... --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 09:07, 28 August 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
<br />
==Comment==<br />
I see where this is leading to and I do not like it.<br />
This is supposed to improve the balance .<br />
<br />
Balance between casters and non casters<br />
<br />
The problem with this is that balance between casters and noncasters is something that depents on situation.<br />
And the DM decides about the situation...<br />
<br />
Most simples case: The adventure today plays in a dungeon that is completly inside a antimagic field, dead or caotic magic zone...<br />
Spellcasters still overpowered?<br />
<br />
It do not have to be so bad every time<br />
Spells need material commponets and foci that can but do not have to be avaible..<br />
<br />
Furthermore the power of a spellcaster is not constant.<br />
With every spell he cast he is losing power.<br />
<br />
An inteligent enemy knows that.<br />
He sends minions or just waits for his time.<br />
Until the spellcaster has burned his energy or is just preparde for something else and then the enemy strikes.<br />
To counteract this a spellcaster has to safe energy.<br />
And while he safes energy the non casters do thier job.<br />
A spellcasters that is constantly stealing the other characters the show is just someone who needs to be taught that his life depends on saving energy.<br />
<br />
So as long as a fighter is much stronger then a spellcaster without spells.<br />
And much weaker then a spellcaster with full spells.<br />
The DM can always run the game in a style that let both contribute the same...<br />
<br />
Balance between caracters and monsters<br />
Who wants this?<br />
Balance between charcaters an monsters means that in 50% of the cases the Caracters will die...<br />
And that means you will basically never see them with level 5+...<br />
The CR was not constructed for balance but for "Can just be beaten up."<br />
Why are the monsters than so much stronger then the characters of the same level?<br />
Synergies! The game is a group game the group is much stronger than sum of its parts.<br />
Please note that one wants to have synergies to make the group work together.<br />
The CR is designed to fit for this.<br />
So it is NOT designed to fit without.<br />
<br />
There are not only optimal character builds there are also optimal group builds.<br />
If you use a suboptimal group build then the CR has to be addapted...<br />
This problem exists what ever kind of classes you use as long as you has synergies.<br />
<br />
So what is really changes when one is using this source books<br />
Before the DM has to force the casters to save energy.<br />
Now he has to let them throw it out because otherwise the noncasters get all the action. <br />
The typical encounter has to go with higher CR because every body is stronger.<br />
<br />
The casters has to think a little bit less because they have to burn their stuff anyhow<br />
The fighter has to think more because they have more options.<br />
And everybody is happy.<br />
<br />
No.<br />
The change in balance will be minor<br />
But the change of the world is huge.<br />
In some of the other source books there is stated the society that you will end up with these rules<br />
And I totally believe it.<br />
The D&D heroes are unbelievable strong and this books just make them stronger.<br />
And that is ripping the world appart.<br />
<br />
In SRD the Power of the non casters are limited.<br />
So they can not overpower society so easily.<br />
The power of the spellcasters is not constant. <br />
They CAN overpower society but if they do at the same time paint a big bullseye on they head.<br />
Because then they can easily be watched by an enemy. And the moment they are not prepared...<br />
<br />
This is why in normal D&D setting the role of the princess is not always to prostitute herselve to the high level barbarian.<br />
And an aristrocate may be a better ruler then a fighter because the fighter<br />
has at least one of CH, IN or Wis as a dump score and the aristrocate not...<br />
<br />
But I not doubt that this is well intended. This is made for and from people who wants to rule the country, and wants the princess to marry their IN=Wis=CH= 8 barbarian and like it.<br />
<br />
But who am I to tell people what they do in their free time.<br />
I mean this seriously<br />
Please note that I do not try to rate the classes involved.<br />
I just want to say that there are many D&D worlds that just will not work with these classes.<br />
<br />
PS: I know my english is not a language but a crime. Anybody may feel free to correct my writing errors.<br />
<br />
::You misunderstand the balance between characters and monsters. One character should, ideally, be able to go fifty-fifty with a challenge with a CR equal to his level, with the challenges being things like "bruisers" or "magic-using monsters" and "groups". So you can write character classes to cover different bases. And, basically, D&D is sort of low-fantasy from levels 1-5, medium-fantasy from about five to thirteen, and high fantasy thereafter. Races of War moved the fighty-types to medium fantasy. So different character classes can cover different bases. Oh, and what kind of jerk DM would run an entire adventure in an antimagic field? The fact is, D&D is a game. It should at least make the effort to be fun for everyone involved. And every session of it is ALSO a game, and should be enjoyable. Continually making life hard for the guy playing a wizard is not good policy. Funny enough, there's a crowd out there that, once they have a character that can survive, will just say "There." and enjoy themselves and not try to break the game in half. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 20:52, 15 September 2010 (MDT)<br />
<br />
You think I misunderstood. As I think you misunderstood.<br />
Thats subjective. Objective is: We understood it differently.<br />
Please note that you have to rewirite the game so that your way of seeing it makes sence and I do not. <br />
And if you think that the CR of the monsters should correspond to CL one to one.<br />
And they do not why are you not changing the CR?<br />
I mean dragons traditionally lives alone...<br />
So a chalange for a group(!) of heroes is one dragon in rare cases two.<br />
Do you really want the group of 6 people fight 6 dragons?<br />
<br />
:No. What I personally want is the characters to be brought up to more or less the same level, and a lot of kinks in the rules worked out. And you still don't understand the meaning of the 50/50 or how the CR system is stated to work. In the DMG, fighting something with a CR 4 higher than you means you -may- be able to win if you pull out all the stops. Now, the default has always been assumed to be a four-man party. The four man party can fight something with a CR equal to party level and they're supposed to win and expend only 30-40% of their resources. But the CR guidelines also had a couple of handy notes: Halving the size of the party raises the CR of challenge by 2. Halving it again is another 2. So CRs are increased by 4 for a solo character. <br />
<br />
At the creature side I read:<br />
CR:<br />
This shows the average level of a party of adventurers for which one creature would make an encounter of moderate difficulty. <br />
<br />
Average Level<br />
Not Sum Level<br />
<br />
So the four man party with Level 16 each fights the Level 16 Dragon together and should win<br />
<br />
"Halving the size of the party raises the CR of challenge by 2."<br />
So the two man party with Level 18 each fights the CR 16 Dragon and win<br />
So the one man party with Level 20 each fights the CR 16 Dragon and win<br />
<br />
If taken "Halving the size of the party raises the CR of challenge by 2."seriously<br />
That is a factor 4...<br />
<br />
You are fighting a fight that is supposed to be won by 4 times peoble with one person insteat<br />
Do you really thing thats translates into 50/50 to win I do not believe.<br />
<br />
Good, real good plan, synergy, heavy use of resources a little luck..<br />
May make it possible that you do the CR+4 thing<br />
But in Straight numbers it can be impossible and certainly do not have to be 50/50<br />
<br />
But still you have a point the rule implies an exponetial grow in power<br />
That a SDR fighter only does by equipment and support of casters but not on his own.<br />
I honestly do not know if the recommented wealth per level is good for this<br />
Because I do not tend to use it...<br />
<br />
Still he is defintely usefull. <br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
:That means a single character of level 6 should be able to win against half of CR 6 challenges, and at least ''contribute'' in some way against a routine fight in a way the other characters can't. But in the SRD, not all of the classes can do it (Fighter, Paladin, and Monk are very much the opposite, being a liability in an equal-CR fight unless you really know what you're doing). And not all classes will be good at the same thing. Here's the killer: If you wanted to turn 3.5 into a perfectly balanced system, you'd have to re-write all of the spells and monsters (because monsters use spells, too). That's so much work you should just make a new system. But, by making melee classes fit in with the rest of the game, it serves as a patch and puts them in the ballpark with everyone else. It is a patch, but it works. It makes some melee classes with genuinely interesting abilities and lets them contribute to the world. Admittedly, the game makes no sense past level 15 or so, (hereafter referred to as Crazy Town), anyway. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 03:38, 17 September 2010 (MDT)<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
Wizzards are unbelievable powerful but they come with tought restrictions.<br />
If DM do not let the player feel the restrictions then they are only unbelivable powerful, but then the lack of balance is some decition the DM made...<br />
<br />
"D&D is a game. It should at least make the effort to be fun for everyone involved. And every session of it is ALSO a game, and should be enjoyable"<br />
<br />
You assume that what is funny for you is funny for everybody else.<br />
You want to run arround with a really awesome charcter. And do real cool stuff.<br />
And if your real awesome charcter dies that like a kick in the face.<br />
<br />
For some people the fun in the game comes from trying to solve real problems with limited resources. <br />
No problem is worth thinking about,<br />
that can be solved with full charge at the moment you notice it. <br />
So if you have a real problem and the barbarian makes full charge directly it will most probably kill him.<br />
If it does not kill him, it was no real problem...<br />
That does not mean that barbarians are useless.<br />
Only that their full charge has to be timed in a bigger plan properly.<br />
Even a barbarian should be able to learn this in let us say 5 levels...<br />
<br />
Obviously the concept of thinking real hard for solving problems having real strong charcters, combined implies you need fucking strong monsters.<br />
There are several fantasy worlds where it is stated that dragons are the bigges monster arround.<br />
So the fucking strong monster is the dragon...<br />
But if one character alone is as strong as a dragon then this will just not work out in these settings.<br />
<br />
I know not everybody thinks it is fun to spend an evening with planning.<br />
As not everybody thinks it is funny to play chess.<br />
<br />
If you want to just walk in the dungeon kill everything.<br />
And want to use not optimized group builds.<br />
And not want to just change the challange rate of the monsters .<br />
And not want to use strong magic items to compensate<br />
Yes then you will have to power up your character classes as you did because your charcters will not survive it otherwise...<br />
<br />
But please realize that this is a consequence of your playing style.<br />
And do not holds for everybody.<br />
There are people who are having quite much fun with the game as it is..<br />
<br />
::Oh, ye gods. You are quite the piece of work. You made so many assumptions that are so blindingly wrong that I'm somewhat at a loss of where to begin deconstructing. But, oh, is it on now. You've made all these assumptions about how I roll, and let your own pig-eyed prejudice blind you. I'll happily enlighten you.<br />
<br />
Good that you do not lack confidence...<br />
<br />
::I want to be able to pick a concept and have it be viable and not have to worry about having to fight the system to make it work. In the SRD, TWF requires a lot of feats for not much benefit. Weapon Finesse still makes you worse than someone who wields a greatsword and wears heavy armor. If I want to play a guy who dual-wields rapiers and works a certain Errol Flynn vibe, the system punishes me left and right with less AC and less damage and making me pay feats out the wazoo, and use weapons with less damage. And it isn't mechanically sound, it's a trap for someone who doesn't know the system already. <br />
<br />
In every system you can make stupild decitions<br />
And you can call them trapps if you want.<br />
<br />
::I very much dislike that. It rewards min-maxxers for dumpster-diving and punishes people who don't want to play a cookie-cutter build that focuses on making one number as big as it can get. But, irony of ironies, it takes a serious pair of optimizers to come up with character classes and a few rules patches to remove some of the more hideous traps and rules loops and come up with something that, while it's definitely a higher power level, it's hard to significantly swing the power level. Or mess a character up; the Barbarian is pretty much self-contained.<br />
<br />
For building characters that the SDR Classes fail to realize<br />
Other peoble build homebrew classes too.<br />
But not everybody build classes that are in every sense much stronger then the corresponding SDR...<br />
<br />
I can not say somethingt sensefull if your system is much more balanced.<br />
I would have to invest much more work<br />
<br />
::And...Saying it's my fault because I don't want to play optimized groups builds? That is honestly insulting. That's saying I'm a bad player because I don't play cookie-cutter groups with two casters and two or three melee people. Actually, I DM more than I play these days. I fill the players in on the setting, let them pick their classes, and then I roll with it. If necessary, I make a few gentleman's agreements with people who do things like play wizards and know how to use them to keep the game rolling. So far, I've never had a game dissolve because it wasn't fun or because the players got on each other's nerves or they didn't like the way the game was going. I'd call that a successful track record, wouldn't you? Not all groups play the standard make-up. They shouldn't be punished for it.<br />
<br />
I have not said that it is your fault. But it was your decision.<br />
Thats a difference.<br />
If the game is designed for a specific playstyle and you want to use an other style. Then perhaps it may be a good idea to change the game.<br />
But that was your decision.<br />
That does not means that the original game was bad.<br />
If everybody is happy in your group you don not have a problem.<br />
But is it so hard to imagine that there are groups out there who reached the same state.<br />
With the normal rules and not because they are all stupild and did not really understand them?<br />
<br />
::And I quite enjoy chess. And Scrabble. And liverpool. And I've been thinking about the deconstruction of Objectivism found in the first Bioshock for the past week or so, when I haven't been brushing up on some Lovecraft so I get a proper chilling effect on the players in an upcoming game session. And I hold a deep love for elaborate planning and out-of-left-field tactics and encourage them in the games I run, and try to do them in the games I play. Are you familiar with the Midas Meteor? <br />
<br />
I was not doubting your intelectual level.<br />
You know there are very intelligent peoble out there who do not like to play strategy games...<br />
<br />
::Except I ''love'' strategy games and it turns up in how I play D&D. When I DM, I tend to lay out the problem/challenge out and let the players handle the fine details and see what they do. This has led, on occasion, to things like setting a barn on fire as a distraction with an summoned Fire Mephit that has Invisibility cast on it.<br />
<br />
<br />
::No, of course you aren't, because I'm the one who came up with it (I did dabble with the name Damocles' Ingot, but y'know, I like the Midas Meteor better). It uses the 5th-level spell Major Creation to crack open any building you'd care to name, up to and probably including an adamantine fortress. How do you do it? You stand on a great height which can also support a great weight. You take a gold piece and cast Major Creation to make gold by the cubic foot. Gold weighs about 1,200 pounds (or about 545.5 kilos if you're more used to metric) a cubic foot. This is an interesting fact I've found out in the course of my geology degree. It means that a wizard can create at least a six-ton lump of gold and drop it onto a target below. The gold will evaporate in a couple of minutes, but it'll have already blown through the roof of any building. It also has a ten-minute casting time, giving the rest of the party members time to get into position. The tremendous noise makes a great distraction, as does the hole in the roof (which is also an entry point if you want to go that way.)<br />
<br />
So when you think of major creation<br />
There is nothing slowly created (and has to be somehow stable in the meantime)<br />
But just pops up at the end of the casting time?<br />
Again one do not have to see it this way.<br />
Note I do not say you are wrong we are speaking about a fantasy word.<br />
And mine and yours do not have to be the same.<br />
<br />
::Finding a platform is the hitch. I've done it in an Eberron game off a large airship and in Dragonmech with a few coglayer shenanigans. Whether the Meteor is formed fast or slow, the result is the same. You have at least nine or ten cubic feet of gold at the end, and you drop--whether via a trapdoor or turning off the force field it happens to be standing on--onto something below you. <br />
<br />
<br />
::I very much like the Tome classes and writeups because they gave me some things to think about, and the classes aren't ever boring and let every player have something to contribute to the game. This means the plans tend to get better when the Fighter can stand up and say "I can sneak in with the rogue and we can secure the treasure room's hallway" and the Barbarian can, in fact, say he'll be able to fend off a guardian monster for a while. Elaborate plans tend to get better when all participants can actually contribute without hand-holding. And the melee classes aren't completely boned by the casters, either. I don't know if you've ever looked at the spell [[SRD:Forcecage|Forcecage]]? That is a disrespectful slap to any one who isn't playing a full caster, seeing as how it lasts for ''hours'' and all effects which can help you escape are...high-level magic. Wizards and Clerics, if they so choose, can bypass what you call the harsh restrictions. <br />
<br />
Having more options do not automatically make better plans.<br />
If some options are to strong they will in effect just kill every other...<br />
Also peoble tend to thing in game mechanics if they have to many of them. <br />
Yes I know force cage. Its brocken <br />
No doubt about this.<br />
You can solve the problem two ways <br />
You power it down or everybody else up.<br />
I prefer the first one you the second. <br />
<br />
::Did you know a wand of Cure Light Wounds costs 750 GP, contains 50 charges, and means the Cleric doesn't have to burn his spells-per-day on healing? It's an easy workaround. Did you know that at early levels, Color Spray--a level 1 illusion spell--is an absolute terror able to make a whole group of enemies drop at once? Did you know around level 10, if a wizard casts [[SRD: Solid Fog]] ''and then'' [[SRD: Black Tentacles]], they will single-handedly destroy most encounters? Do you know what happens when a Cleric casts some of his buffing spells on himself? Particularly Divine Power? Did you know that Entangle, a level 1 Druid Spell, will lock down many many enemies and make them sitting ducks? Are you aware of the might of [[SRD: Prestidigitation]]? Use it to change the color of your clothes for an instant disguise. Cast it on fireplace ashes for instant makeup. Conjure up a balloon with a note tied to it to get it up a cliff. It's a really nice spell. I'd rather have it than Magic Missile. <br />
<br />
Yes I know<br />
Would it not be strange to defend SDR If I would not know it at least a little bit?<br />
I already said that without restrictions spellcasters are unbelievable powerfull.<br />
Why do you want to discuse what we already agreed on?<br />
<br />
::::Because those effects are everywhere. At level 1, a longsword can kill you in a hit. Color Spray can remove you from combat by giving you a seizure at the same level. At level 10, Black Tentacles can result in a case of tentacle rape for the whole party. At level 15, you have stuff like Shapechange and Finger of Death and monsters which can decided to squash you flat by rolling over onto you. I don't care about the PVP arena-style combat people tend to have with "Wizard vs. Fighter!!!!" but when characters consistently can't contribute to the party's effectiveness? That's not good for the party and not good for the player and not good for the game. It's a cooperative story-telling game, so everyone should have something distinctive they can do within the party, and buffing the PCs up a little means the cooperative story can continue for longer, and it can smooth out some rules glitches which can halt play while there's a spirited search for the truth. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 11:27, 17 September 2010 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::Spellcasters aren't unbelievably powerful. Or, if they are, so are the monsters, since they can also use spells or spell-like effects So that's several hundred pages of the game that's unbelievably powerful (spells and monsters). Melee classes, however, are ''not'' unbelievably powerful and if they're limited to SRD, there's only a few really viable ways to play them and NOT get killed; if you happen to own the things like Compete Warrior, huzzah, go dumpster-diving for feats to pump your trip check up as high as you can. It's still just one big number, and one big number does not a character make. So, to fix this problem, one could either re-write the casting classes, hundreds of spells, and hundreds of monsters to tone them down, so much work that you might as well write your own new edition of D&D, or you could invite the melee classes to play the same game as everyone else. The first option results in 4th Edition. This is the result of taking option 2. Warriors live in a world where at level 8, they could be expected to help kill a T-Rex (CR 8) with nothing but what they know, can do, and have on them at the time. This is very much a problem for someone who hasn't gotten exponentially stronger, faster, and better with his weapons. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 11:27, 17 September 2010 (MDT)<br />
<br />
<br />
::I'm fully aware the Tomes mean a few things have to be considered when you're making a setting. My game is better for that, since I've actually thought about D&D settings and how characters interact with the economy and power structures in any given setting. The melee classes contained in here can't break the game. Technically, D&D doesn't make sense at all, considering a character fighting four encounters a day can go from level 1 to level 20 in a few months, which means the world should be getting rearranged by some adventuring party which hit it big ''at least'' once a year. But people act like a samurai able to cleave a Force effect or a Barbarian who's as good as ever after he's had a minute to catch his breath is somehow shockingly broken. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 03:38, 17 September 2010 (MDT)<br />
<br />
As I said you thought about your setting and the implication for the world<br />
And I already agreed that you are probably right one this.<br />
How stable the world is<br />
depends on how much power a small group of persons can get individually and with your classes that is just much more.<br />
So you changed the world...<br />
And I like the older version more. But that is just my personal taste...<br />
<br />
::I didn't write this. I liked it enough to put it up here on the wiki, with the other three articles (links at the bottom), but this isn't mine, though I feel very grateful to the two guys who wrote it. I keep an eye on this for edits and respond. And arguing a case means I have to think about the argument and my answer to it. Exercise for my brain's D&D muscles. And you're hitting on one of the answer. You can have fun with the SRD system. But you're having fun despite the system's problems, probably because of immersive roleplaying or you and your buddies are all in a good. This speaks nothing for the system's mechanical virtues. With the right crowd, you can have fun doing just about anything. This does not mean the system doesn't have its (really, really bad problems). This article, and the three before it, sort those problems out and make a game where you can concentrate more on the playing rather than the rules-lawyering, by going the short way of inviting the melee people to play along. If you want to go the other route, I wish you all the luck in the world. You'll have to do a lot of work if you want to make a systemic, consistent approach to toning D&D down. Just don't forget to re-write the monsters, seeing as how they'd be much stronger than the party otherwise.--[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 11:27, 17 September 2010 (MDT)<br />
<br />
<br />
Fast healing<br />
Sorry to point that out but outside a fight even fast healing 1 means that having both arms and legs brocken, and a sword sticking in the stomach<br />
Is slightly more inconvinient then: Have to go to toilet<br />
But less inconvinient then: Forgot to buy peanuts at the supermarked.<br />
Because EVERY injury that is not klilling you vanishes without trace after a few minutes.<br />
It do not make much difference in fight.<br />
But every stupild action you do outside fight, will have to kill or you to have no consequences at all.<br />
There is a fire. Walk arround it? Why? Walk through it! That is much faster...<br />
For low level that IS brocken!<br />
If "Barbarian who's as good as ever after he's had a minute to catch his breath"<br />
is your aim than give him the full round action<br />
Self healing: that heals his BAR Level hit points.<br />
That will still tends to kill the role of a healer<br />
But ensures that the best way is arround the fire and not through it.<br />
So peoble do not all the time do all kind of really stupild stuff because there are no consequences.<br />
<br />
::A Barbarian's big problem is overwhelming force. They can still die from a fall, can still die from being jumped in the middle of a fight (Oh, and after a while, characters ''will'' go through the flames because it's 1) More dramatic 2) normal fire doesn't do much damage). Now, the barbarian can still be killed, seeing as how the Barbarian's mechanical niche is front-line fighting in a world where you have creatures both larger and stronger than the Barbarian, bristling with natural weapons and strange powers and reach and really big damage dice. Sometimes there's groups of these guys. So, the Barbarian's chosen niche for the SGT -is- a frontal assault, which is a very badly-supported tactic. But this Barbie was written with the idea of being able to do that and stand a decent chance at surviving. The Fast Healing kicks in because the Barbarian really could bankrupt the cleric's wands of healing. It tends to happen in my games like this: You're aware of how most action-movie heroes take a beating, get bloodied and bruised and wounded, but after a bit they can keep soldiering on? We've never actually discussed it, but it's how it always turned up in my game. Maybe I'm lucky that I have players who more or less cooperate both in character and out of it, and most of them aren't interested in breaking the setting in half. <br />
<br />
Cleave a force effect<br />
At that point I tend to agree with you. The force effects themselves tends to be brocken.<br />
Cleaving them is harmles in comparison.<br />
I would solve the problem another way, but thats nothing to argue about.<br />
<br />
Pardon if I fail at this editing bit but I felt compelled to write after seeing this comment. The English errors aside the commenter has put out the general feeling I think I was having when reading this tome if a bit more passionately than it was for me. I am just now getting into DND and this tome stuck out to me as 'this makes bloody sense' but my personal application will most likely be a mix of your two opinions, i.e. a slightly less powerful version for the combat classes and more freedom for the casters while retaining the strategy element. Thanks for the good read.<br />
<br />
::I think you should check the others in the series to get a look at the adjustments I was talking about above--[[Tome of Necromancy (3.5e Sourcebook)]], [[Tome of Fiends (3.5e Sourcebook)]], and the [[Dungeonomicon (3.5e Sourcebook)]]. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 03:38, 17 September 2010 (MDT)</div>Genowhirlhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Races_of_War_(3.5e_Sourcebook)&diff=489536Talk:Races of War (3.5e Sourcebook)2010-09-17T09:39:44Z<p>Genowhirl: </p>
<hr />
<div>{{Featured Article Nominee}}<br />
<br />
This is the last of the Tomes. Sadly, it's incomplete (this is most noticeable in the Armor section), but I'm sure the reader could adapt or invent what he needs to. There's more that could be done--like making the appropriate charts and there's a section I left out--about a mass combat mini-game--because I didn't want to deal with the formatting just yet. That being said, I'm taking a break until I stop thinking in terms of wiki formatting. [[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 21:50, 12 May 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
==Feats kinda unfair==<br />
For example<br />
Murderous Intent: with this, All I need to do is be a monk and have you fail a fort save (stunning fist) and then you just die.<br />
<br />
:That is false. A Coup de Grace is a standard action, as is stunning them. You only get one standard action in a round. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 15:03, 7 September 2008 (MDT)<br />
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::I don't know about what he said, but the rules for Special Combat-whatever say Coup de Grace should be a critical hit. So I guess that would keep a Monk from doing the Stun-and-Slay option of Murderous Intent.<br />
<br />
And according to how I interpreted this, if I have a BAB of 16, all I have to do is just say I want a feat and then instantly I have full knowledge of how to do it amazingly? <br />
<br />
:Yep, that's the way they work. The Murderous Intent thing isn't as bad as you'd think. If we're talking about a PHB monk, he gets the ability to coup de gras a stunned enemy at level 15. And how many times have you seen a character actively try to stun someone else?<br />
:I realize that the full version of scaling feats can make people blink, because it seems such a huge step up in power (as well it is). But I think it's covered in the Failure of Feats section about how having feat chains pretty much reams any chance of diversifying your character and remaining level-appropriate, so all the feats were designed to provide options and bonuses that you'd actually care about at the level you get them.<br />
:I understand Frank and K designed their classes so that one alone is able to go, on average, 50/50 with monsters with CR equal to their level. That's not "easily win," that's "be able to win at all about half the time against level-appropriate monsters". And at high levels, monsters have some pretty crazy abilities, so if a character's going to be stay on the level-appropriate train, at high levels characters have to get abilities that are likewise a little crazy. It's not unreasonable, but it does require that you decide for yourself and your games what a character should be able to do at level 15.<br />
:To get an idea...Look up a Marut. It's in the SRD. It's got Dimension Door at will, so a combat person can't stay back and used range. It can cast Earthquake to turn you into an instant fossil and it can cast Plane Shift so if it wanted, it could actually ''send you to Hell'' and its melee abilities can either blind or stun you, as well as do 2d6 + 12 + 3d6....<br />
:...and at level 15, your character is supposed to be able to usefully contribute to the party being able to beat it while expending only 20% of their useable resources. If you're a PHB fighter or monk, good luck with that.[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 03:03, 8 November 2008 (MST)<br />
::Monks get abundant step at level 11, the marut is cr 15<br />
:::Are you really suggesting that the ability to Dimension Door once per day helps you keep up with a critter than can Dimension Door every round?<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
How about when you get the feat you start off with the first benefit. Then the next level if you meet the first BAB req, then you get that ability, then the next level, you get the next ability and so on and ect. So, if you meet the highest req, like 16 BAB, then you gain one ability from the feat each level. --[[User:T G Geko|T G Geko]] 15:09, 16 May 2008 (MDT)<br />
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:Well, you interpreted it right, although that is an interesting progression idea you have there. The point is that if you take a feat at a level between the upgrade points (which are levels 1, 6, 11, and 16 if you've got Full BAB or max ranks) you get an ability that's appropriate for you to have at your level. Basically, around the time you get to level 11 and definitely by the time you've reached level 16, you've reached that area of DnD known as CrazyTown, and CrazyTown does not much care for combat people--if you're going to be able to contribute against the monsters above level 10 as something other than a target to distract them from attacking the people who do the real damage...You're going to need some likewise crazy abilities. I'd suggest trying it out however it works for you, though. [[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 23:02, 22 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
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:Use the stuff here with whatever caveats you're comfortable with. Just understand that there are some basic assumptions underlying what's gone in here, and you might be surprised if you tried it as written.[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 22:24, 16 May 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::Couldn't we just use the old feats but make them available at every level? That would seem a lot simpler. Furthermore, it would allow characters to become more diversified without having this newer <br />
:::The old feats are awful. Compare Whirlwind Attack to the Fireball spell. At 7th level, a wizard can cast 3-4 Fireballs a day for 22 damage at range as a standard. A fighter can attack 8-15 enemies (if they all happen to surround him) with a Full Round action. These are not even remotely equivalent, and it only gets worse from there. {{Unsigned|163.181.251.115|10:17, 9 June 2008 (MDT)}}<br />
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== Featured Article Nomination ==<br />
<br />
Frank and K stuff was always gold, I read this before and it's still tasty now. So I figured, why not? Give them a little bit in the spotlight, FA, here we go. -- [[User:Eiji|Eiji]] 21:04, 7 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
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'''Support''' &mdash; This article is well thought out and over-all well done. It is the type of article others should strive for.--[[User:Ramses IV|Ramses IV]] 21:07, 7 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
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'''Support''' &mdash; I support this article, if you wanna know why, just read it.-[[User:Risek|Risek]] 21:48, 7 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
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:Sure, only...what is it? A campaign Setting or something? --[[User:Sir Milo Teabag|Sir Milo Teabag]] 13:32, 17 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
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::It's an article...thing about what rules work and what rules don't, with suggested changes to help things work better. There's three previous Tomes on here--the Tome of Necromancy, the Tome of Fiends, and the Dungeonomicon. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 09:04, 21 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
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'''Support''' &mdash; I wouldn't have posted this if I didn't think it was worthy of being on here. It helps melee characters actively contribute alongside the casters, and it's entertaining and thought-provoking besides. [[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 11:20, 25 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
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'''Support''' &mdash; and I came on to put this back in its original form. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 21:18, 31 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
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'''Comment''' &mdash; I think this page gets the award for longest table of contents. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 05:02, 8 November 2008 (MST)<br />
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:Ain't that the truth? But there's a lot of material and, well, if someone's going to use this, at least they have a quick reference/link. [[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 12:38, 10 November 2008 (MST)<br />
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::Actually, GreenDragon, this might be forward of me, but maybe you could set up a sub-category in D&D Other for the Frank & K Tome material? And then the articles could be split down into their component parts, and we wouldn't have these, for example, 206 KB articles to sort through.[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 20:59, 10 November 2008 (MST)<br />
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:::[[DnD Sourcebooks]] for all the sourcebooks on D&D Wiki. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 11:33, 6 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
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'''Support''': Now that I've broken it down into sub pages its much more manageable. The information is vast and would be a great addition to our main page. &nbsp;<small><span style="border: 1px solid blue; -moz-border-radius:10px">[[User:Hooper|'''<span style="background-color:White; color:FireBrick; -moz-border-radius-topleft:10px; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:10px"> Hooper </span>''']][[User talk:Hooper|<span style="background-color:red; color:blue; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:10px; -moz-border-radius-topleft:10px">&nbsp;&nbsp;talk&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Hooper|<span style="background-color:red; color:blue">&nbsp;&nbsp;contribs&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]][[Special:Emailuser/Hooper|<span style="background-color:red; color:blue; -moz-border-radius-bottomright:10px; -moz-border-radius-topright:10px">&nbsp;&nbsp;email&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]]</span></small> 08:01, 9 January 2009 (MST)<br />
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'''Support''': Just stumbled across this and all I can say is wow. Lots of interesting ideas and concepts put forth that I'd never really thought about before. [[User:Jota|Jota]] 10:11, 9 January 2009 (MST)<br />
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'''Comment''': It appears as if this one may have enough support to become the FA. &nbsp;<small><span style="border: 1px solid blue; -moz-border-radius:10px">[[User:Hooper|'''<span style="background-color:White; color:FireBrick; -moz-border-radius-topleft:10px; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:10px"> Hooper </span>''']][[User talk:Hooper|<span style="background-color:red; color:blue; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:10px; -moz-border-radius-topleft:10px">&nbsp;&nbsp;talk&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Hooper|<span style="background-color:red; color:blue">&nbsp;&nbsp;contribs&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]][[Special:Emailuser/Hooper|<span style="background-color:red; color:blue; -moz-border-radius-bottomright:10px; -moz-border-radius-topright:10px">&nbsp;&nbsp;email&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]]</span></small> 09:17, 14 January 2009 (MST)<br />
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'''Comment''': Well, of course its great. Rarely is an article actually both interesting and fun to read (especially one this long, without it feeling like work). But, unfortunately, it has essentially no wiki formatting or language links. If its gonna be a Featured Article, its gonna need those. Additionally it would be nice to have an image for this article as well, something along the lines of a mocked-up book cover of sorts. Something professional looking to show off on the front page for being a Featured Article. --[[User:Ganteka|Ganteka]] 13:18, 11 February 2009 (MST)<br />
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::The base classes should be links (they already exist on the Wiki), the PrCs also need to be split out. Aside from that, what else in terms of formatting needs to be improved? [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 13:20, 11 February 2009 (MST)<br />
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'''Comment''' &mdash; I think this needs to be made into a sourcebook, comparable to [[Arachonomicon; the Book of Spiderkind (4e Sourcebook)]] (just for 3.5e and included in a new section made for 3.5e sourcebooks). That should solve many of the formatting issues and make for a nicer presentation. As well as that it will no longer be in other. And then the categories could be changed. Instead of [[:Category:Tome]] it could be changed to [[:Category:Sourcebook]] and then [[:Category:Races of War Sourebook]] could be added to all of the corresponding pages. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 03:43, 14 March 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:For the sourcebook: sure. There was no sourcebook preload to begin with, which is why that didn't happen. In fact, there's still no Sourcebook preload or breadcrumb for 3.5e, only 4e. But as for the category change -- I'd have to say no. There is a decent amount of general 'Tome' stuff that doesn't actually fall into one of the four Tome sourcebooks. I also cannot edit the "Add new" page to make an entry for sourcebooks. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 10:43, 14 March 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::All the information on [[Dungeons and Dragons]] is actually pulled to from each individual page, so you can add [[DnD Sourcebooks]] (when made) to that page yourself (it uses [[Template:x0]]). Admin rights are not needed.<br />
::And about the tome category. What constitutes a tome then? Would [[Tome of Battle]], etc be in [[:Category:Tome]] too? I mean it is just a name attached onto sourcebooks. Although I see the problem. You want to make it so all the information from the three tomes from Frank and K is together in the same category. What if instead a category of [[:Category:Frank and K]] was added and then you could use a dpl to get the results you want. Also each sourcebooks would have their one category (like [[:Category:Races of War Sourcebook]], etc). --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 19:28, 14 March 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:::Sorry about any confusion; Surgo and I and most of the people who use Frank and K's material tend to refer to it as 'Tome' Material (Tome of Necromancy, Tome of Fiends, Dungeonomicon, Races of War. There's also the incomplete Book of Gears and the odd bit written by one or the other when people ask or whatever). There's been some suggestions to name them collectively as 'Tome of Awesome' or similar, but none of the names have stuck. -- [[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 19:36, 14 March 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::::So why not call it "Frank and K Material"? It would then also fit the same organizational structure as the the publication list (starting at somewhere like [[Publishers of d20 and D&D Products]] onwards), however on a new area created for Homebrew options. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 19:59, 14 March 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:::::Two reasons: one, it's always been called "Tome" and second, there are more people writing stuff for it out there than just those two. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 21:15, 14 March 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::::::Why is "Frank and K" given more credit then the other people behind the project? Why not just have each item have it's author attached all under the name of the sourcebook. So, for example, if [[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] made the [[Dragon Lancer (DnD Prestige Class)]] then he/she would have his/her name on it instead of "Frank and K". Keeping in mind that if "Frank and K" made the item they would have their name on it still, of course. And then all the items would be attached by the sourcebook category. It would be like if someone made something spider oriented for fourth edition, talked to [[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]], and got it added into [[Arachonomicon; the Book of Spiderkind (4e Sourcebook)]]. Almost the same idea as here, saving that this was just done earlier and not through D&D Wiki.<br />
::::::Although then what should be done to get all the sourcebooks made by "Frank and K" together? Simple. Since everything would be linked to by categories one can cross-reference them to get the results you want. This would produce the non-content pages of these sourcebooks.<br />
::::::<nowiki><DPL></nowiki><br />
::::::&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<nowiki>debug=1</nowiki><br />
::::::&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<nowiki>category=DnD</nowiki><br />
::::::&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<nowiki>category=User</nowiki><br />
::::::&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<nowiki>category=Sourebook</nowiki><br />
::::::&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<nowiki>category=Tome of Fiends Sourebook|Tome of Necromancy Sourcebook|Dungeonomicon Sourebook|Races of War Sourebook|Book of Gears Sourebook</nowiki><br />
::::::&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<nowiki>order=ascending</nowiki><br />
::::::<nowiki></DPL></nowiki><br />
::::::This would produce everything related to the "Frank and K" books.<br />
::::::<nowiki><DPL></nowiki><br />
::::::&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<nowiki>debug=1</nowiki><br />
::::::&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<nowiki>category=DnD</nowiki><br />
::::::&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<nowiki>category=Tome of Fiends Sourebook|Tome of Necromancy Sourcebook|Dungeonomicon Sourebook|Races of War Sourebook|Book of Gears Sourebook</nowiki><br />
::::::&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<nowiki>order=ascending</nowiki><br />
::::::<nowiki></DPL></nowiki><br />
::::::--[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 09:58, 15 March 2009 (MDT)<br />
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'''Comment''' &mdash; This needs to be formatted as per the [[3.5e Sourcebook Preload]]. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 08:50, 25 March 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:It has now been made into a sourcebook and formatted correctly. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 00:14, 1 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::I know links were added to the classes, but why not do the same for all the other things which that can be done to? Such as the feats, races, etc. Not only does it make it so more people will see this sourcebook's material, but it also un-clutters a lot of the sub-pages. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 11:31, 6 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:::For the feats...how could I make them even follow the normal feat template? The races don't really follow the preload very much -- most of those sections are unused. If that's fine, tell me and I'll work on splitting them out too, but I don't quite see the point of splitting out an entire sourcebook's content from the sourcebook itself. What's the point of even having a sourcebook section in that case? [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 12:44, 6 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::::If these races do not fit into the race preload (no fluff for example) then I agree they should just be kept as is. The reason for splitting up pages is so the content can be seen by more people and not just people who find this through [[DnD Sourcebooks]]. If you feel that they would not work as a stand-alone D&D creation (no fluff, different rule sets, etc) then just keep it on this page. But I would say move what you can (so more people see the contents). --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 12:55, 6 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
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'''Comment''' &mdash; All FA's need an image. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 11:32, 6 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:I'll dig one up. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 11:37, 6 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::Is this wiki allowed to use those free art samples they give out on the Wizards website? And a second question: Would a title image, rather than than an image of soldiers fighting, be allowable? --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 11:42, 6 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:::What do you mean by a title image? Something like D&D Wiki's logo or something like the image on [[Arachonomicon; the Book of Spiderkind (4e Sourcebook)]] (with a title and image)? And I am not sure about the free art samples... I know we use one as our background and on a few other pages, but on wikipedia they just link to them and do not host them on their own servers. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 12:15, 6 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::::Yes, that's it. A logo. That's what I was thinking of. And, all ight on the images. If nothing else, I'll poke around and find an online artist with a suitably warlike picture and ask their permission. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 13:10, 6 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:Why, exactly? Some times, no image is appropriate. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 12:41, 6 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
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'''Support''': This "book" has really put things in perspective about the differences in power between magic and melee. --[[User:T G Geko|T G Geko]] 09:59, 7 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
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== Stop changing the mechanics ==<br />
<br />
Anonymous people need to stop going through and changing mechanics, especially mechanics they don't understand. I just went through and removed a bunch of unwarranted changes by a few anonymice and put the document back to the way it was originally. No typo correction, newly created tables, etc. were changed, just random edits that changed mechanics without reason. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 21:17, 31 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
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: I can protect it from IP if you like?--[[User:Lord Dhazriel|Lord Dhazriel]] 12:01, 14 January 2009 (MST)<br />
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==Tried to Straighten This Discussion Out==<br />
I noticed it was a little disorganized, and there were comments on here that were in the middle of other comments, so...yeah...[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 03:02, 8 November 2008 (MST)<br />
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==Picture==<br />
Thanks, Rith. That picture has just the right amount of cheese on it and...actually, there's no way he could be a background character, so that's another plus. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 09:55, 24 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
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==Monster Conversions... not... making... sense==<br />
Could someone please help me with F&K's monster conversions? I tried following his steps in creating a PC-playable bugbear race, and I totally failed. I got a Bugbear with -2 Intelligence, and then I looked at their work and they had +4 Strength, +2 Constitution, +2 Dexterity, -2 Charisma... I don't understand. Please, halp! --[[User:For Valor|For Valor]] 11:06, 6 July 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:It's unsaid in the book, but the bugbear is one of the monsters that specifically was ''not'' built using the elite array (it uses the standard array instea). [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 12:15, 6 July 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::Alright, gotcha. So for future reference, when should I use the elite stat array and when should I use the standard one?<br />
<br />
:::Anything with no LA listed uses the elite array. The rest, unfortunately, is not so obvious and requires your best judgment. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 23:42, 6 July 2009 (MDT)<br />
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==Picture Change==<br />
I've looked at the new one, waited a day or two, looked at it again...Decided I didn't like it. The other one wasn't exactly perfect, but it did have a cheesy retro look, like the early DnD box set covers--and it had the title of the article on it. Maybe the Tome Fighter page pic could be captioned or something... --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 09:07, 28 August 2009 (MDT)<br />
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==Comment==<br />
I see where this is leading to and I do not like it.<br />
This is supposed to improve the balance .<br />
<br />
Balance between casters and non casters<br />
<br />
The problem with this is that balance between casters and noncasters is something that depents on situation.<br />
And the DM decides about the situation...<br />
<br />
Most simples case: The adventure today plays in a dungeon that is completly inside a antimagic field, dead or caotic magic zone...<br />
Spellcasters still overpowered?<br />
<br />
It do not have to be so bad every time<br />
Spells need material commponets and foci that can but do not have to be avaible..<br />
<br />
Furthermore the power of a spellcaster is not constant.<br />
With every spell he cast he is losing power.<br />
<br />
An inteligent enemy knows that.<br />
He sends minions or just waits for his time.<br />
Until the spellcaster has burned his energy or is just preparde for something else and then the enemy strikes.<br />
To counteract this a spellcaster has to safe energy.<br />
And while he safes energy the non casters do thier job.<br />
A spellcasters that is constantly stealing the other characters the show is just someone who needs to be taught that his life depends on saving energy.<br />
<br />
So as long as a fighter is much stronger then a spellcaster without spells.<br />
And much weaker then a spellcaster with full spells.<br />
The DM can always run the game in a style that let both contribute the same...<br />
<br />
Balance between caracters and monsters<br />
Who wants this?<br />
Balance between charcaters an monsters means that in 50% of the cases the Caracters will die...<br />
And that means you will basically never see them with level 5+...<br />
The CR was not constructed for balance but for "Can just be beaten up."<br />
Why are the monsters than so much stronger then the characters of the same level?<br />
Synergies! The game is a group game the group is much stronger than sum of its parts.<br />
Please note that one wants to have synergies to make the group work together.<br />
The CR is designed to fit for this.<br />
So it is NOT designed to fit without.<br />
<br />
There are not only optimal character builds there are also optimal group builds.<br />
If you use a suboptimal group build then the CR has to be addapted...<br />
This problem exists what ever kind of classes you use as long as you has synergies.<br />
<br />
So what is really changes when one is using this source books<br />
Before the DM has to force the casters to save energy.<br />
Now he has to let them throw it out because otherwise the noncasters get all the action. <br />
The typical encounter has to go with higher CR because every body is stronger.<br />
<br />
The casters has to think a little bit less because they have to burn their stuff anyhow<br />
The fighter has to think more because they have more options.<br />
And everybody is happy.<br />
<br />
No.<br />
The change in balance will be minor<br />
But the change of the world is huge.<br />
In some of the other source books there is stated the society that you will end up with these rules<br />
And I totally believe it.<br />
The D&D heroes are unbelievable strong and this books just make them stronger.<br />
And that is ripping the world appart.<br />
<br />
In SRD the Power of the non casters are limited.<br />
So they can not overpower society so easily.<br />
The power of the spellcasters is not constant. <br />
They CAN overpower society but if they do at the same time paint a big bullseye on they head.<br />
Because then they can easily be watched by an enemy. And the moment they are not prepared...<br />
<br />
This is why in normal D&D setting the role of the princess is not always to prostitute herselve to the high level barbarian.<br />
And an aristrocate may be a better ruler then a fighter because the fighter<br />
has at least one of CH, IN or Wis as a dump score and the aristrocate not...<br />
<br />
But I not doubt that this is well intended. This is made for and from people who wants to rule the country, and wants the princess to marry their IN=Wis=CH= 8 barbarian and like it.<br />
<br />
But who am I to tell people what they do in their free time.<br />
I mean this seriously<br />
Please note that I do not try to rate the classes involved.<br />
I just want to say that there are many D&D worlds that just will not work with these classes.<br />
<br />
PS: I know my english is not a language but a crime. Anybody may feel free to correct my writing errors.<br />
<br />
::You misunderstand the balance between characters and monsters. One character should, ideally, be able to go fifty-fifty with a challenge with a CR equal to his level, with the challenges being things like "bruisers" or "magic-using monsters" and "groups". So you can write character classes to cover different bases. And, basically, D&D is sort of low-fantasy from levels 1-5, medium-fantasy from about five to thirteen, and high fantasy thereafter. Races of War moved the fighty-types to medium fantasy. So different character classes can cover different bases. Oh, and what kind of jerk DM would run an entire adventure in an antimagic field? The fact is, D&D is a game. It should at least make the effort to be fun for everyone involved. And every session of it is ALSO a game, and should be enjoyable. Continually making life hard for the guy playing a wizard is not good policy. Funny enough, there's a crowd out there that, once they have a character that can survive, will just say "There." and enjoy themselves and not try to break the game in half. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 20:52, 15 September 2010 (MDT)<br />
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You think I misunderstood. As I think you misunderstood.<br />
Thats subjective. Objective is: We understood it differently.<br />
Please note that you have to rewirite the game so that your way of seeing it makes sence and I do not. <br />
And if you think that the CR of the monsters should correspond to CL one to one.<br />
And they do not why are you not changing the CR?<br />
I mean dragons traditionally lives alone...<br />
So a chalange for a group(!) of heroes is one dragon in rare cases two.<br />
Do you really want the group of 6 people fight 6 dragons?<br />
<br />
:No. What I personally want is the characters to be brought up to more or less the same level, and a lot of kinks in the rules worked out. And you still don't understand the meaning of the 50/50 or how the CR system is stated to work. In the DMG, fighting something with a CR 4 higher than you means you -may- be able to win if you pull out all the stops. Now, the default has always been assumed to be a four-man party. The four man party can fight something with a CR equal to party level and they're supposed to win and expend only 30-40% of their resources. But the CR guidelines also had a couple of handy notes: Halving the size of the party raises the CR of challenge by 2. Halving it again is another 2. So CRs are increased by 4 for a solo character. <br />
<br />
:That means a single character of level 6 should be able to win against half of CR 6 challenges, and at least ''contribute'' in some way against a routine fight in a way the other characters can't. But in the SRD, not all of the classes can do it (Fighter, Paladin, and Monk are very much the opposite, being a liability in an equal-CR fight unless you really know what you're doing). And not all classes will be good at the same thing. Here's the killer: If you wanted to turn 3.5 into a perfectly balanced system, you'd have to re-write all of the spells and monsters (because monsters use spells, too). That's so much work you should just make a new system. But, by making melee classes fit in with the rest of the game, it serves as a patch and puts them in the ballpark with everyone else. It is a patch, but it works. It makes some melee classes with genuinely interesting abilities and lets them contribute to the world. Admittedly, the game makes no sense past level 15 or so, (hereafter referred to as Crazy Town), anyway. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 03:38, 17 September 2010 (MDT)<br />
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Wizzards are unbelievable powerful but they come with tought restrictions.<br />
If DM do not let the player feel the restrictions then they are only unbelivable powerful, but then the lack of balance is some decition the DM made...<br />
<br />
"D&D is a game. It should at least make the effort to be fun for everyone involved. And every session of it is ALSO a game, and should be enjoyable"<br />
<br />
You assume that what is funny for you is funny for everybody else.<br />
You want to run arround with a really awesome charcter. And do real cool stuff.<br />
And if your real awesome charcter dies that like a kick in the face.<br />
<br />
For some people the fun in the game comes from trying to solve real problems with limited resources. <br />
No problem is worth thinking about,<br />
that can be solved with full charge at the moment you notice it. <br />
So if you have a real problem and the barbarian makes full charge directly it will most probably kill him.<br />
If it does not kill him, it was no real problem...<br />
That does not mean that barbarians are useless.<br />
Only that their full charge has to be timed in a bigger plan properly.<br />
Even a barbarian should be able to learn this in let us say 5 levels...<br />
<br />
Obviously the concept of thinking real hard for solving problems having real strong charcters, combined implies you need fucking strong monsters.<br />
There are several fantasy worlds where it is stated that dragons are the bigges monster arround.<br />
So the fucking strong monster is the dragon...<br />
But if one character alone is as strong as a dragon then this will just not work out in these settings.<br />
<br />
I know not everybody thinks it is fun to spend an evening with planning.<br />
As not everybody thinks it is funny to play chess.<br />
<br />
If you want to just walk in the dungeon kill everything.<br />
And want to use not optimized group builds.<br />
And not want to just change the challange rate of the monsters .<br />
And not want to use strong magic items to compensate<br />
Yes then you will have to power up your character classes as you did because your charcters will not survive it otherwise...<br />
<br />
But please realize that this is a consequence of your playing style.<br />
And do not holds for everybody.<br />
There are people who are having quite much fun with the game as it is..<br />
<br />
::Oh, ye gods. You are quite the piece of work. You made so many assumptions that are so blindingly wrong that I'm somewhat at a loss of where to begin deconstructing. But, oh, is it on now. You've made all these assumptions about how I roll, and let your own pig-eyed prejudice blind you. I'll happily enlighten you.<br />
<br />
::I want to be able to pick a concept and have it be viable and not have to worry about having to fight the system to make it work. In the SRD, TWF requires a lot of feats for not much benefit. Weapon Finesse still makes you worse than someone who wields a greatsword and wears heavy armor. If I want to play a guy who dual-wields rapiers and works a certain Errol Flynn vibe, the system punishes me left and right with less AC and less damage and making me pay feats out the wazoo, and use weapons with less damage. And it isn't mechanically sound, it's a trap for someone who doesn't know the system already. <br />
<br />
::I very much dislike that. It rewards min-maxxers for dumpster-diving and punishes people who don't want to play a cookie-cutter build that focuses on making one number as big as it can get. But, irony of ironies, it takes a serious pair of optimizers to come up with character classes and a few rules patches to remove some of the more hideous traps and rules loops and come up with something that, while it's definitely a higher power level, it's hard to significantly swing the power level. Or mess a character up; the Barbarian is pretty much self-contained.<br />
<br />
::And...Saying it's my fault because I don't want to play optimized groups builds? That is honestly insulting. That's saying I'm a bad player because I don't play cookie-cutter groups with two casters and two or three melee people. Actually, I DM more than I play these days. I fill the players in on the setting, let them pick their classes, and then I roll with it. If necessary, I make a few gentleman's agreements with people who do things like play wizards and know how to use them to keep the game rolling. So far, I've never had a game dissolve because it wasn't fun or because the players got on each other's nerves or they didn't like the way the game was going. I'd call that a successful track record, wouldn't you? Not all groups play the standard make-up. They shouldn't be punished for it.<br />
<br />
::And I quite enjoy chess. And Scrabble. And liverpool. And I've been thinking about the deconstruction of Objectivism found in the first Bioshock for the past week or so, when I haven't been brushing up on some Lovecraft so I get a proper chilling effect on the players in an upcoming game session. And I hold a deep love for elaborate planning and out-of-left-field tactics and encourage them in the games I run, and try to do them in the games I play. Are you familiar with the Midas Meteor? <br />
<br />
::No, of course you aren't, because I'm the one who came up with it (I did dabble with the name Damocles' Ingot, but y'know, I like the Midas Meteor better). It uses the 5th-level spell Major Creation to crack open any building you'd care to name, up to and probably including an adamantine fortress. How do you do it? You stand on a great height which can also support a great weight. You take a gold piece and cast Major Creation to make gold by the cubic foot. Gold weighs about 1,200 pounds (or about 545.5 kilos if you're more used to metric) a cubic foot. This is an interesting fact I've found out in the course of my geology degree. It means that a wizard can create at least a six-ton lump of gold and drop it onto a target below. The gold will evaporate in a couple of minutes, but it'll have already blown through the roof of any building. It also has a ten-minute casting time, giving the rest of the party members time to get into position. The tremendous noise makes a great distraction, as does the hole in the roof (which is also an entry point if you want to go that way.)<br />
<br />
::I very much like the Tome classes and writeups because they gave me some things to think about, and the classes aren't ever boring and let every player have something to contribute to the game. This means the plans tend to get better when the Fighter can stand up and say "I can sneak in with the rogue and we can secure the treasure room's hallway" and the Barbarian can, in fact, say he'll be able to fend off a guardian monster for a while. Elaborate plans tend to get better when all participants can actually contribute without hand-holding. And the melee classes aren't completely boned by the casters, either. I don't know if you've ever looked at the spell [[SRD:Forcecage|Forcecage]]? That is a disrespectful slap to any one who isn't playing a full caster, seeing as how it lasts for ''hours'' and all effects which can help you escape are...high-level magic. Wizards and Clerics, if they so choose, can bypass what you call the harsh restrictions. <br />
<br />
::Did you know a wand of Cure Light Wounds costs 750 GP, contains 50 charges, and means the Cleric doesn't have to burn his spells-per-day on healing? It's an easy workaround. Did you know that at early levels, Color Spray--a level 1 illusion spell--is an absolute terror able to make a whole group of enemies drop at once? Did you know around level 10, if a wizard casts [[SRD: Solid Fog]] ''and then'' [[SRD: Black Tentacles]], they will single-handedly destroy most encounters? Do you know what happens when a Cleric casts some of his buffing spells on himself? Particularly Divine Power? Did you know that Entangle, a level 1 Druid Spell, will lock down many many enemies and make them sitting ducks? Are you aware of the might of [[SRD: Prestidigitation]]? Use it to change the color of your clothes for an instant disguise. Cast it on fireplace ashes for instant makeup. Conjure up a balloon with a note tied to it to get it up a cliff. It's a really nice spell. I'd rather have it than Magic Missile. <br />
<br />
::I'm fully aware the Tomes mean a few things have to be considered when you're making a setting. My game is better for that, since I've actually thought about D&D settings and how characters interact with the economy and power structures in any given setting. The melee classes contained in here can't break the game. Technically, D&D doesn't make sense at all, considering a character fighting four encounters a day can go from level 1 to level 20 in a few months, which means the world should be getting rearranged by some adventuring party which hit it big ''at least'' once a year. But people act like a samurai able to cleave a Force effect or a Barbarian who's as good as ever after he's had a minute to catch his breath is somehow shockingly broken. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 03:38, 17 September 2010 (MDT)<br />
<br />
Pardon if I fail at this editing bit but I felt compelled to write after seeing this comment. The English errors aside the commenter has put out the general feeling I think I was having when reading this tome if a bit more passionately than it was for me. I am just now getting into DND and this tome stuck out to me as 'this makes bloody sense' but my personal application will most likely be a mix of your two opinions, i.e. a slightly less powerful version for the combat classes and more freedom for the casters while retaining the strategy element. Thanks for the good read.<br />
<br />
::I think you should check the others in the series to get a look at the adjustments I was talking about above--[[Tome of Necromancy (3.5e Sourcebook)]], [[Tome of Fiends (3.5e Sourcebook)]], and the [[Dungeonomicon (3.5e Sourcebook)]]. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 03:38, 17 September 2010 (MDT)</div>Genowhirlhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Races_of_War_(3.5e_Sourcebook)&diff=489535Talk:Races of War (3.5e Sourcebook)2010-09-17T09:38:02Z<p>Genowhirl: rant rant rant</p>
<hr />
<div>{{Featured Article Nominee}}<br />
<br />
This is the last of the Tomes. Sadly, it's incomplete (this is most noticeable in the Armor section), but I'm sure the reader could adapt or invent what he needs to. There's more that could be done--like making the appropriate charts and there's a section I left out--about a mass combat mini-game--because I didn't want to deal with the formatting just yet. That being said, I'm taking a break until I stop thinking in terms of wiki formatting. [[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 21:50, 12 May 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
==Feats kinda unfair==<br />
For example<br />
Murderous Intent: with this, All I need to do is be a monk and have you fail a fort save (stunning fist) and then you just die.<br />
<br />
:That is false. A Coup de Grace is a standard action, as is stunning them. You only get one standard action in a round. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 15:03, 7 September 2008 (MDT)<br />
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::I don't know about what he said, but the rules for Special Combat-whatever say Coup de Grace should be a critical hit. So I guess that would keep a Monk from doing the Stun-and-Slay option of Murderous Intent.<br />
<br />
And according to how I interpreted this, if I have a BAB of 16, all I have to do is just say I want a feat and then instantly I have full knowledge of how to do it amazingly? <br />
<br />
:Yep, that's the way they work. The Murderous Intent thing isn't as bad as you'd think. If we're talking about a PHB monk, he gets the ability to coup de gras a stunned enemy at level 15. And how many times have you seen a character actively try to stun someone else?<br />
:I realize that the full version of scaling feats can make people blink, because it seems such a huge step up in power (as well it is). But I think it's covered in the Failure of Feats section about how having feat chains pretty much reams any chance of diversifying your character and remaining level-appropriate, so all the feats were designed to provide options and bonuses that you'd actually care about at the level you get them.<br />
:I understand Frank and K designed their classes so that one alone is able to go, on average, 50/50 with monsters with CR equal to their level. That's not "easily win," that's "be able to win at all about half the time against level-appropriate monsters". And at high levels, monsters have some pretty crazy abilities, so if a character's going to be stay on the level-appropriate train, at high levels characters have to get abilities that are likewise a little crazy. It's not unreasonable, but it does require that you decide for yourself and your games what a character should be able to do at level 15.<br />
:To get an idea...Look up a Marut. It's in the SRD. It's got Dimension Door at will, so a combat person can't stay back and used range. It can cast Earthquake to turn you into an instant fossil and it can cast Plane Shift so if it wanted, it could actually ''send you to Hell'' and its melee abilities can either blind or stun you, as well as do 2d6 + 12 + 3d6....<br />
:...and at level 15, your character is supposed to be able to usefully contribute to the party being able to beat it while expending only 20% of their useable resources. If you're a PHB fighter or monk, good luck with that.[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 03:03, 8 November 2008 (MST)<br />
::Monks get abundant step at level 11, the marut is cr 15<br />
:::Are you really suggesting that the ability to Dimension Door once per day helps you keep up with a critter than can Dimension Door every round?<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
How about when you get the feat you start off with the first benefit. Then the next level if you meet the first BAB req, then you get that ability, then the next level, you get the next ability and so on and ect. So, if you meet the highest req, like 16 BAB, then you gain one ability from the feat each level. --[[User:T G Geko|T G Geko]] 15:09, 16 May 2008 (MDT)<br />
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:Well, you interpreted it right, although that is an interesting progression idea you have there. The point is that if you take a feat at a level between the upgrade points (which are levels 1, 6, 11, and 16 if you've got Full BAB or max ranks) you get an ability that's appropriate for you to have at your level. Basically, around the time you get to level 11 and definitely by the time you've reached level 16, you've reached that area of DnD known as CrazyTown, and CrazyTown does not much care for combat people--if you're going to be able to contribute against the monsters above level 10 as something other than a target to distract them from attacking the people who do the real damage...You're going to need some likewise crazy abilities. I'd suggest trying it out however it works for you, though. [[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 23:02, 22 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
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:Use the stuff here with whatever caveats you're comfortable with. Just understand that there are some basic assumptions underlying what's gone in here, and you might be surprised if you tried it as written.[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 22:24, 16 May 2008 (MDT)<br />
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::Couldn't we just use the old feats but make them available at every level? That would seem a lot simpler. Furthermore, it would allow characters to become more diversified without having this newer <br />
:::The old feats are awful. Compare Whirlwind Attack to the Fireball spell. At 7th level, a wizard can cast 3-4 Fireballs a day for 22 damage at range as a standard. A fighter can attack 8-15 enemies (if they all happen to surround him) with a Full Round action. These are not even remotely equivalent, and it only gets worse from there. {{Unsigned|163.181.251.115|10:17, 9 June 2008 (MDT)}}<br />
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== Featured Article Nomination ==<br />
<br />
Frank and K stuff was always gold, I read this before and it's still tasty now. So I figured, why not? Give them a little bit in the spotlight, FA, here we go. -- [[User:Eiji|Eiji]] 21:04, 7 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
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'''Support''' &mdash; This article is well thought out and over-all well done. It is the type of article others should strive for.--[[User:Ramses IV|Ramses IV]] 21:07, 7 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
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'''Support''' &mdash; I support this article, if you wanna know why, just read it.-[[User:Risek|Risek]] 21:48, 7 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
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:Sure, only...what is it? A campaign Setting or something? --[[User:Sir Milo Teabag|Sir Milo Teabag]] 13:32, 17 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
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::It's an article...thing about what rules work and what rules don't, with suggested changes to help things work better. There's three previous Tomes on here--the Tome of Necromancy, the Tome of Fiends, and the Dungeonomicon. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 09:04, 21 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
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'''Support''' &mdash; I wouldn't have posted this if I didn't think it was worthy of being on here. It helps melee characters actively contribute alongside the casters, and it's entertaining and thought-provoking besides. [[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 11:20, 25 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
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'''Support''' &mdash; and I came on to put this back in its original form. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 21:18, 31 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
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'''Comment''' &mdash; I think this page gets the award for longest table of contents. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 05:02, 8 November 2008 (MST)<br />
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:Ain't that the truth? But there's a lot of material and, well, if someone's going to use this, at least they have a quick reference/link. [[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 12:38, 10 November 2008 (MST)<br />
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::Actually, GreenDragon, this might be forward of me, but maybe you could set up a sub-category in D&D Other for the Frank & K Tome material? And then the articles could be split down into their component parts, and we wouldn't have these, for example, 206 KB articles to sort through.[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 20:59, 10 November 2008 (MST)<br />
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:::[[DnD Sourcebooks]] for all the sourcebooks on D&D Wiki. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 11:33, 6 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
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'''Support''': Now that I've broken it down into sub pages its much more manageable. The information is vast and would be a great addition to our main page. &nbsp;<small><span style="border: 1px solid blue; -moz-border-radius:10px">[[User:Hooper|'''<span style="background-color:White; color:FireBrick; -moz-border-radius-topleft:10px; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:10px"> Hooper </span>''']][[User talk:Hooper|<span style="background-color:red; color:blue; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:10px; -moz-border-radius-topleft:10px">&nbsp;&nbsp;talk&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Hooper|<span style="background-color:red; color:blue">&nbsp;&nbsp;contribs&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]][[Special:Emailuser/Hooper|<span style="background-color:red; color:blue; -moz-border-radius-bottomright:10px; -moz-border-radius-topright:10px">&nbsp;&nbsp;email&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]]</span></small> 08:01, 9 January 2009 (MST)<br />
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'''Support''': Just stumbled across this and all I can say is wow. Lots of interesting ideas and concepts put forth that I'd never really thought about before. [[User:Jota|Jota]] 10:11, 9 January 2009 (MST)<br />
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'''Comment''': It appears as if this one may have enough support to become the FA. &nbsp;<small><span style="border: 1px solid blue; -moz-border-radius:10px">[[User:Hooper|'''<span style="background-color:White; color:FireBrick; -moz-border-radius-topleft:10px; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:10px"> Hooper </span>''']][[User talk:Hooper|<span style="background-color:red; color:blue; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:10px; -moz-border-radius-topleft:10px">&nbsp;&nbsp;talk&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Hooper|<span style="background-color:red; color:blue">&nbsp;&nbsp;contribs&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]][[Special:Emailuser/Hooper|<span style="background-color:red; color:blue; -moz-border-radius-bottomright:10px; -moz-border-radius-topright:10px">&nbsp;&nbsp;email&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]]</span></small> 09:17, 14 January 2009 (MST)<br />
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'''Comment''': Well, of course its great. Rarely is an article actually both interesting and fun to read (especially one this long, without it feeling like work). But, unfortunately, it has essentially no wiki formatting or language links. If its gonna be a Featured Article, its gonna need those. Additionally it would be nice to have an image for this article as well, something along the lines of a mocked-up book cover of sorts. Something professional looking to show off on the front page for being a Featured Article. --[[User:Ganteka|Ganteka]] 13:18, 11 February 2009 (MST)<br />
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::The base classes should be links (they already exist on the Wiki), the PrCs also need to be split out. Aside from that, what else in terms of formatting needs to be improved? [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 13:20, 11 February 2009 (MST)<br />
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'''Comment''' &mdash; I think this needs to be made into a sourcebook, comparable to [[Arachonomicon; the Book of Spiderkind (4e Sourcebook)]] (just for 3.5e and included in a new section made for 3.5e sourcebooks). That should solve many of the formatting issues and make for a nicer presentation. As well as that it will no longer be in other. And then the categories could be changed. Instead of [[:Category:Tome]] it could be changed to [[:Category:Sourcebook]] and then [[:Category:Races of War Sourebook]] could be added to all of the corresponding pages. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 03:43, 14 March 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:For the sourcebook: sure. There was no sourcebook preload to begin with, which is why that didn't happen. In fact, there's still no Sourcebook preload or breadcrumb for 3.5e, only 4e. But as for the category change -- I'd have to say no. There is a decent amount of general 'Tome' stuff that doesn't actually fall into one of the four Tome sourcebooks. I also cannot edit the "Add new" page to make an entry for sourcebooks. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 10:43, 14 March 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::All the information on [[Dungeons and Dragons]] is actually pulled to from each individual page, so you can add [[DnD Sourcebooks]] (when made) to that page yourself (it uses [[Template:x0]]). Admin rights are not needed.<br />
::And about the tome category. What constitutes a tome then? Would [[Tome of Battle]], etc be in [[:Category:Tome]] too? I mean it is just a name attached onto sourcebooks. Although I see the problem. You want to make it so all the information from the three tomes from Frank and K is together in the same category. What if instead a category of [[:Category:Frank and K]] was added and then you could use a dpl to get the results you want. Also each sourcebooks would have their one category (like [[:Category:Races of War Sourcebook]], etc). --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 19:28, 14 March 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:::Sorry about any confusion; Surgo and I and most of the people who use Frank and K's material tend to refer to it as 'Tome' Material (Tome of Necromancy, Tome of Fiends, Dungeonomicon, Races of War. There's also the incomplete Book of Gears and the odd bit written by one or the other when people ask or whatever). There's been some suggestions to name them collectively as 'Tome of Awesome' or similar, but none of the names have stuck. -- [[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 19:36, 14 March 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::::So why not call it "Frank and K Material"? It would then also fit the same organizational structure as the the publication list (starting at somewhere like [[Publishers of d20 and D&D Products]] onwards), however on a new area created for Homebrew options. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 19:59, 14 March 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:::::Two reasons: one, it's always been called "Tome" and second, there are more people writing stuff for it out there than just those two. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 21:15, 14 March 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::::::Why is "Frank and K" given more credit then the other people behind the project? Why not just have each item have it's author attached all under the name of the sourcebook. So, for example, if [[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] made the [[Dragon Lancer (DnD Prestige Class)]] then he/she would have his/her name on it instead of "Frank and K". Keeping in mind that if "Frank and K" made the item they would have their name on it still, of course. And then all the items would be attached by the sourcebook category. It would be like if someone made something spider oriented for fourth edition, talked to [[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]], and got it added into [[Arachonomicon; the Book of Spiderkind (4e Sourcebook)]]. Almost the same idea as here, saving that this was just done earlier and not through D&D Wiki.<br />
::::::Although then what should be done to get all the sourcebooks made by "Frank and K" together? Simple. Since everything would be linked to by categories one can cross-reference them to get the results you want. This would produce the non-content pages of these sourcebooks.<br />
::::::<nowiki><DPL></nowiki><br />
::::::&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<nowiki>debug=1</nowiki><br />
::::::&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<nowiki>category=DnD</nowiki><br />
::::::&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<nowiki>category=User</nowiki><br />
::::::&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<nowiki>category=Sourebook</nowiki><br />
::::::&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<nowiki>category=Tome of Fiends Sourebook|Tome of Necromancy Sourcebook|Dungeonomicon Sourebook|Races of War Sourebook|Book of Gears Sourebook</nowiki><br />
::::::&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<nowiki>order=ascending</nowiki><br />
::::::<nowiki></DPL></nowiki><br />
::::::This would produce everything related to the "Frank and K" books.<br />
::::::<nowiki><DPL></nowiki><br />
::::::&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<nowiki>debug=1</nowiki><br />
::::::&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<nowiki>category=DnD</nowiki><br />
::::::&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<nowiki>category=Tome of Fiends Sourebook|Tome of Necromancy Sourcebook|Dungeonomicon Sourebook|Races of War Sourebook|Book of Gears Sourebook</nowiki><br />
::::::&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<nowiki>order=ascending</nowiki><br />
::::::<nowiki></DPL></nowiki><br />
::::::--[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 09:58, 15 March 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
'''Comment''' &mdash; This needs to be formatted as per the [[3.5e Sourcebook Preload]]. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 08:50, 25 March 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:It has now been made into a sourcebook and formatted correctly. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 00:14, 1 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::I know links were added to the classes, but why not do the same for all the other things which that can be done to? Such as the feats, races, etc. Not only does it make it so more people will see this sourcebook's material, but it also un-clutters a lot of the sub-pages. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 11:31, 6 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:::For the feats...how could I make them even follow the normal feat template? The races don't really follow the preload very much -- most of those sections are unused. If that's fine, tell me and I'll work on splitting them out too, but I don't quite see the point of splitting out an entire sourcebook's content from the sourcebook itself. What's the point of even having a sourcebook section in that case? [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 12:44, 6 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::::If these races do not fit into the race preload (no fluff for example) then I agree they should just be kept as is. The reason for splitting up pages is so the content can be seen by more people and not just people who find this through [[DnD Sourcebooks]]. If you feel that they would not work as a stand-alone D&D creation (no fluff, different rule sets, etc) then just keep it on this page. But I would say move what you can (so more people see the contents). --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 12:55, 6 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
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'''Comment''' &mdash; All FA's need an image. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 11:32, 6 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:I'll dig one up. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 11:37, 6 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::Is this wiki allowed to use those free art samples they give out on the Wizards website? And a second question: Would a title image, rather than than an image of soldiers fighting, be allowable? --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 11:42, 6 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:::What do you mean by a title image? Something like D&D Wiki's logo or something like the image on [[Arachonomicon; the Book of Spiderkind (4e Sourcebook)]] (with a title and image)? And I am not sure about the free art samples... I know we use one as our background and on a few other pages, but on wikipedia they just link to them and do not host them on their own servers. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 12:15, 6 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::::Yes, that's it. A logo. That's what I was thinking of. And, all ight on the images. If nothing else, I'll poke around and find an online artist with a suitably warlike picture and ask their permission. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 13:10, 6 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:Why, exactly? Some times, no image is appropriate. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 12:41, 6 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
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'''Support''': This "book" has really put things in perspective about the differences in power between magic and melee. --[[User:T G Geko|T G Geko]] 09:59, 7 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== Stop changing the mechanics ==<br />
<br />
Anonymous people need to stop going through and changing mechanics, especially mechanics they don't understand. I just went through and removed a bunch of unwarranted changes by a few anonymice and put the document back to the way it was originally. No typo correction, newly created tables, etc. were changed, just random edits that changed mechanics without reason. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 21:17, 31 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
: I can protect it from IP if you like?--[[User:Lord Dhazriel|Lord Dhazriel]] 12:01, 14 January 2009 (MST)<br />
<br />
==Tried to Straighten This Discussion Out==<br />
I noticed it was a little disorganized, and there were comments on here that were in the middle of other comments, so...yeah...[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 03:02, 8 November 2008 (MST)<br />
<br />
==Picture==<br />
Thanks, Rith. That picture has just the right amount of cheese on it and...actually, there's no way he could be a background character, so that's another plus. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 09:55, 24 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
<br />
==Monster Conversions... not... making... sense==<br />
Could someone please help me with F&K's monster conversions? I tried following his steps in creating a PC-playable bugbear race, and I totally failed. I got a Bugbear with -2 Intelligence, and then I looked at their work and they had +4 Strength, +2 Constitution, +2 Dexterity, -2 Charisma... I don't understand. Please, halp! --[[User:For Valor|For Valor]] 11:06, 6 July 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:It's unsaid in the book, but the bugbear is one of the monsters that specifically was ''not'' built using the elite array (it uses the standard array instea). [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 12:15, 6 July 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::Alright, gotcha. So for future reference, when should I use the elite stat array and when should I use the standard one?<br />
<br />
:::Anything with no LA listed uses the elite array. The rest, unfortunately, is not so obvious and requires your best judgment. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 23:42, 6 July 2009 (MDT)<br />
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==Picture Change==<br />
I've looked at the new one, waited a day or two, looked at it again...Decided I didn't like it. The other one wasn't exactly perfect, but it did have a cheesy retro look, like the early DnD box set covers--and it had the title of the article on it. Maybe the Tome Fighter page pic could be captioned or something... --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 09:07, 28 August 2009 (MDT)<br />
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<br />
==Comment==<br />
I see where this is leading to and I do not like it.<br />
This is supposed to improve the balance .<br />
<br />
Balance between casters and non casters<br />
<br />
The problem with this is that balance between casters and noncasters is something that depents on situation.<br />
And the DM decides about the situation...<br />
<br />
Most simples case: The adventure today plays in a dungeon that is completly inside a antimagic field, dead or caotic magic zone...<br />
Spellcasters still overpowered?<br />
<br />
It do not have to be so bad every time<br />
Spells need material commponets and foci that can but do not have to be avaible..<br />
<br />
Furthermore the power of a spellcaster is not constant.<br />
With every spell he cast he is losing power.<br />
<br />
An inteligent enemy knows that.<br />
He sends minions or just waits for his time.<br />
Until the spellcaster has burned his energy or is just preparde for something else and then the enemy strikes.<br />
To counteract this a spellcaster has to safe energy.<br />
And while he safes energy the non casters do thier job.<br />
A spellcasters that is constantly stealing the other characters the show is just someone who needs to be taught that his life depends on saving energy.<br />
<br />
So as long as a fighter is much stronger then a spellcaster without spells.<br />
And much weaker then a spellcaster with full spells.<br />
The DM can always run the game in a style that let both contribute the same...<br />
<br />
Balance between caracters and monsters<br />
Who wants this?<br />
Balance between charcaters an monsters means that in 50% of the cases the Caracters will die...<br />
And that means you will basically never see them with level 5+...<br />
The CR was not constructed for balance but for "Can just be beaten up."<br />
Why are the monsters than so much stronger then the characters of the same level?<br />
Synergies! The game is a group game the group is much stronger than sum of its parts.<br />
Please note that one wants to have synergies to make the group work together.<br />
The CR is designed to fit for this.<br />
So it is NOT designed to fit without.<br />
<br />
There are not only optimal character builds there are also optimal group builds.<br />
If you use a suboptimal group build then the CR has to be addapted...<br />
This problem exists what ever kind of classes you use as long as you has synergies.<br />
<br />
So what is really changes when one is using this source books<br />
Before the DM has to force the casters to save energy.<br />
Now he has to let them throw it out because otherwise the noncasters get all the action. <br />
The typical encounter has to go with higher CR because every body is stronger.<br />
<br />
The casters has to think a little bit less because they have to burn their stuff anyhow<br />
The fighter has to think more because they have more options.<br />
And everybody is happy.<br />
<br />
No.<br />
The change in balance will be minor<br />
But the change of the world is huge.<br />
In some of the other source books there is stated the society that you will end up with these rules<br />
And I totally believe it.<br />
The D&D heroes are unbelievable strong and this books just make them stronger.<br />
And that is ripping the world appart.<br />
<br />
In SRD the Power of the non casters are limited.<br />
So they can not overpower society so easily.<br />
The power of the spellcasters is not constant. <br />
They CAN overpower society but if they do at the same time paint a big bullseye on they head.<br />
Because then they can easily be watched by an enemy. And the moment they are not prepared...<br />
<br />
This is why in normal D&D setting the role of the princess is not always to prostitute herselve to the high level barbarian.<br />
And an aristrocate may be a better ruler then a fighter because the fighter<br />
has at least one of CH, IN or Wis as a dump score and the aristrocate not...<br />
<br />
But I not doubt that this is well intended. This is made for and from people who wants to rule the country, and wants the princess to marry their IN=Wis=CH= 8 barbarian and like it.<br />
<br />
But who am I to tell people what they do in their free time.<br />
I mean this seriously<br />
Please note that I do not try to rate the classes involved.<br />
I just want to say that there are many D&D worlds that just will not work with these classes.<br />
<br />
PS: I know my english is not a language but a crime. Anybody may feel free to correct my writing errors.<br />
<br />
::You misunderstand the balance between characters and monsters. One character should, ideally, be able to go fifty-fifty with a challenge with a CR equal to his level, with the challenges being things like "bruisers" or "magic-using monsters" and "groups". So you can write character classes to cover different bases. And, basically, D&D is sort of low-fantasy from levels 1-5, medium-fantasy from about five to thirteen, and high fantasy thereafter. Races of War moved the fighty-types to medium fantasy. So different character classes can cover different bases. Oh, and what kind of jerk DM would run an entire adventure in an antimagic field? The fact is, D&D is a game. It should at least make the effort to be fun for everyone involved. And every session of it is ALSO a game, and should be enjoyable. Continually making life hard for the guy playing a wizard is not good policy. Funny enough, there's a crowd out there that, once they have a character that can survive, will just say "There." and enjoy themselves and not try to break the game in half. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 20:52, 15 September 2010 (MDT)<br />
<br />
You think I misunderstood. As I think you misunderstood.<br />
Thats subjective. Objective is: We understood it differently.<br />
Please note that you have to rewirite the game so that your way of seeing it makes sence and I do not. <br />
And if you think that the CR of the monsters should correspond to CL one to one.<br />
And they do not why are you not changing the CR?<br />
I mean dragons traditionally lives alone...<br />
So a chalange for a group(!) of heroes is one dragon in rare cases two.<br />
Do you really want the group of 6 people fight 6 dragons?<br />
<br />
:No. What I personally want is the characters to be brought up to more or less the same level, and a lot of kinks in the rules worked out. And you still don't understand the meaning of the 50/50 or how the CR system is stated to work. In the DMG, fighting something with a CR 4 higher than you means you -may- be able to win if you pull out all the stops. Now, the default has always been assumed to be a four-man party. The four man party can fight something with a CR equal to party level and they're supposed to win and expend only 30-40% of their resources. But the CR guidelines also had a couple of handy notes: Halving the size of the party raises the CR of challenge by 2. Halving it again is another 2. So CRs are increased by 4 for a solo character. <br />
<br />
:That means a single character of level 6 should be able to win against half of CR 6 challenges, and at least ''contribute'' in some way against a routine fight in a way the other characters can't. But in the SRD, not all of the classes can do it (Fighter, Paladin, and Monk are very much the opposite, being a liability in an equal-CR fight unless you really know what you're doing). And not all classes will be good at the same thing. Here's the killer: If you wanted to turn 3.5 into a perfectly balanced system, you'd have to re-write all of the spells and monsters (because monsters use spells, too). That's so much work you should just make a new system. But, by making melee classes fit in with the rest of the game, it serves as a patch and puts them in the ballpark with everyone else. It is a patch, but it works. It makes some melee classes with genuinely interesting abilities and lets them contribute to the world. Admittedly, the game makes no sense past level 15 or so, (hereafter referred to as Crazy Town), anyway. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 03:38, 17 September 2010 (MDT)<br />
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Wizzards are unbelievable powerful but they come with tought restrictions.<br />
If DM do not let the player feel the restrictions then they are only unbelivable powerful, but then the lack of balance is some decition the DM made...<br />
<br />
"D&D is a game. It should at least make the effort to be fun for everyone involved. And every session of it is ALSO a game, and should be enjoyable"<br />
<br />
You assume that what is funny for you is funny for everybody else.<br />
You want to run arround with a really awesome charcter. And do real cool stuff.<br />
And if your real awesome charcter dies that like a kick in the face.<br />
<br />
For some people the fun in the game comes from trying to solve real problems with limited resources. <br />
No problem is worth thinking about,<br />
that can be solved with full charge at the moment you notice it. <br />
So if you have a real problem and the barbarian makes full charge directly it will most probably kill him.<br />
If it does not kill him, it was no real problem...<br />
That does not mean that barbarians are useless.<br />
Only that their full charge has to be timed in a bigger plan properly.<br />
Even a barbarian should be able to learn this in let us say 5 levels...<br />
<br />
Obviously the concept of thinking real hard for solving problems having real strong charcters, combined implies you need fucking strong monsters.<br />
There are several fantasy worlds where it is stated that dragons are the bigges monster arround.<br />
So the fucking strong monster is the dragon...<br />
But if one character alone is as strong as a dragon then this will just not work out in these settings.<br />
<br />
I know not everybody thinks it is fun to spend an evening with planning.<br />
As not everybody thinks it is funny to play chess.<br />
<br />
If you want to just walk in the dungeon kill everything.<br />
And want to use not optimized group builds.<br />
And not want to just change the challange rate of the monsters .<br />
And not want to use strong magic items to compensate<br />
Yes then you will have to power up your character classes as you did because your charcters will not survive it otherwise...<br />
<br />
But please realize that this is a consequence of your playing style.<br />
And do not holds for everybody.<br />
There are people who are having quite much fun with the game as it is..<br />
<br />
::Oh, ye gods. You are quite the piece of work. You made so many assumptions that are so blindingly wrong that I'm somewhat at a loss of where to begin deconstructing. But, oh, is it on now. You've made all these assumptions about how I roll, and let your own pig-eyed prejudice blind you. I'll happily enlighten you.<br />
<br />
::I want to be able to pick a concept and have it be viable and not have to worry about having to fight the system to make it work. In the SRD, TWF requires a lot of feats for not much benefit. Weapon Finesse still makes you worse than someone who wields a greatsword and wears heavy armor. If I want to play a guy who dual-wields rapiers and works a certain Errol Flynn vibe, the system punishes me left and right with less AC and less damage and making me pay feats out the wazoo, and use weapons with less damage. And it isn't mechanically sound, it's a trap for someone who doesn't know the system already. <br />
<br />
::I very much dislike that. It rewards min-maxxers for dumpster-diving and punishes people who don't want to play a cookie-cutter build that focuses on making one number as big as it can get. But, irony of ironies, it takes a serious pair of optimizers to come up with character classes and a few rules patches to remove some of the more hideous traps and rules loops and come up with something that, while it's definitely a higher power level, it's hard to significantly swing the power level. Or mess a character up; the Barbarian is pretty much self-contained.<br />
<br />
::And...Saying it's my fault because I don't want to play optimized groups builds? That is honestly insulting. That's saying I'm a bad player because I don't play cookie-cutter groups with two casters and two or three melee people. Actually, I DM more than I play these days. I fill the players in on the setting, let them pick their classes, and then I roll with it. If necessary, I make a few gentleman's agreements with people who do things like play wizards and know how to use them to keep the game rolling. So far, I've never had a game dissolve because it wasn't fun or because the players got on each other's nerves or they didn't like the way the game was going. I'd call that a successful track record, wouldn't you? Not all groups play the standard make-up. They shouldn't be punished for it.<br />
<br />
::And I quite enjoy chess. And Scrabble. And liverpool. And I've been thinking about the deconstruction of Objectivism found in the first Bioshock for the past week or so, when I haven't been brushing up on some Lovecraft so I get a proper chilling effect on the players in an upcoming game session. And I hold a deep love for elaborate planning and out-of-left-field tactics and encourage them in the games I run, and try to do them in the games I play. Are you familiar with the Midas Meteor? <br />
<br />
::No, of course you aren't, because I'm the one who came up with it (I did dabble with the name Damocles' Ingot, but y'know, I like the Midas Meteor better). It uses the 5th-level spell Major Creation to crack open any building you'd care to name, up to and probably including an adamantine fortress. How do you do it? You stand on a great height which can also support a great weight. You take a gold piece and cast Major Creation to make gold by the cubic foot. Gold weighs about 1,200 pounds (or about 545.5 kilos if you're more used to metric) a cubic foot. This is an interesting fact I've found out in the course of my geology degree. It means that a wizard can create at least a six-ton lump of gold and drop it onto a target below. The gold will evaporate in a couple of minutes, but it'll have already blown through the roof of any building. It also has a ten-minute casting time, giving the rest of the party members time to get into position. The tremendous noise makes a great distraction, as does the hole in the roof (which is also an entry point if you want to go that way.)<br />
<br />
::I very much like the Tome classes and writeups because they gave me some things to think about, and the classes aren't ever boring and let every player have something to contribute to the game. This means the plans tend to get better when the Fighter can stand up and say "I can sneak in with the rogue and we can secure the treasure room's hallway" and the Barbarian can, in fact, say he'll be able to fend off a guardian monster for a while. Elaborate plans tend to get better when all participants can actually contribute without hand-holding. And the melee classes aren't completely boned by the casters, either. I don't know if you've ever looked at the spell [[SRD:Forcecage|Forcecage]]? That is a disrespectful slap to any one who isn't playing a full caster, seeing as how it lasts for ''hours'' and all effects which can help you escape are...high-level magic. Wizards and Clerics, if they so choose, can bypass what you call the harsh restrictions. <br />
<br />
::Did you know a wand of Cure Light Wounds costs 750 GP, contains 50 charges, and means the Cleric doesn't have to burn his spells-per-day on healing? It's an easy workaround. Did you know that at early levels, Color Spray--a level 1 illusion spell--is an absolute terror able to make a whole group of enemies drop at once? Did you know around level 10, if a wizard casts [[SRD; Solid Fog]] ''and then'' SRD: Black Tentacles]], they will single-handedly destroy most encounters? Do you know what happens when a Cleric casts some of his buffing spells on himself? Particularly Divine Power? Did you know that Entangle, a level 1 Druid Spell, will lock down many many enemies and make them sitting ducks? Are you aware of the might of [[SRD: Prestidigitation]]? Use it to change the color of your clothes for an instant disguise. Cast it on fireplace ashes for instant makeup. Conjure up a balloon with a note tied to it to get it up a cliff. It's a really nice spell. I'd rather have it than Magic Missile. <br />
<br />
::I'm fully aware the Tomes mean a few things have to be considered when you're making a setting. My game is better for that, since I've actually thought about D&D settings and how characters interact with the economy and power structures in any given setting. The melee classes contained in here can't break the game. Technically, D&D doesn't make sense at all, considering a character fighting four encounters a day can go from level 1 to level 20 in a few months, which means the world should be getting rearranged by some adventuring party which hit it big ''at least'' once a year. But people act like a samurai able to cleave a Force effect or a Barbarian who's as good as ever after he's had a minute to catch his breath is somehow shockingly broken. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 03:38, 17 September 2010 (MDT)<br />
<br />
Pardon if I fail at this editing bit but I felt compelled to write after seeing this comment. The English errors aside the commenter has put out the general feeling I think I was having when reading this tome if a bit more passionately than it was for me. I am just now getting into DND and this tome stuck out to me as 'this makes bloody sense' but my personal application will most likely be a mix of your two opinions, i.e. a slightly less powerful version for the combat classes and more freedom for the casters while retaining the strategy element. Thanks for the good read.<br />
<br />
::I think you should check the others in the series to get a look at the adjustments I was talking about above--[[Tome of Necromancy (3.5e Sourcebook)]], [[Tome of Fiends (3.5e Sourcebook)]], and the [[Dungeonomicon (3.5e Sourcebook)]]. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 03:38, 17 September 2010 (MDT)</div>Genowhirlhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Races_of_War_(3.5e_Sourcebook)&diff=489370Talk:Races of War (3.5e Sourcebook)2010-09-16T02:52:50Z<p>Genowhirl: </p>
<hr />
<div>{{Featured Article Nominee}}<br />
<br />
This is the last of the Tomes. Sadly, it's incomplete (this is most noticeable in the Armor section), but I'm sure the reader could adapt or invent what he needs to. There's more that could be done--like making the appropriate charts and there's a section I left out--about a mass combat mini-game--because I didn't want to deal with the formatting just yet. That being said, I'm taking a break until I stop thinking in terms of wiki formatting. [[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 21:50, 12 May 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
==Feats kinda unfair==<br />
For example<br />
Murderous Intent: with this, All I need to do is be a monk and have you fail a fort save (stunning fist) and then you just die.<br />
<br />
:That is false. A Coup de Grace is a standard action, as is stunning them. You only get one standard action in a round. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 15:03, 7 September 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::I don't know about what he said, but the rules for Special Combat-whatever say Coup de Grace should be a critical hit. So I guess that would keep a Monk from doing the Stun-and-Slay option of Murderous Intent.<br />
<br />
And according to how I interpreted this, if I have a BAB of 16, all I have to do is just say I want a feat and then instantly I have full knowledge of how to do it amazingly? <br />
<br />
:Yep, that's the way they work. The Murderous Intent thing isn't as bad as you'd think. If we're talking about a PHB monk, he gets the ability to coup de gras a stunned enemy at level 15. And how many times have you seen a character actively try to stun someone else?<br />
:I realize that the full version of scaling feats can make people blink, because it seems such a huge step up in power (as well it is). But I think it's covered in the Failure of Feats section about how having feat chains pretty much reams any chance of diversifying your character and remaining level-appropriate, so all the feats were designed to provide options and bonuses that you'd actually care about at the level you get them.<br />
:I understand Frank and K designed their classes so that one alone is able to go, on average, 50/50 with monsters with CR equal to their level. That's not "easily win," that's "be able to win at all about half the time against level-appropriate monsters". And at high levels, monsters have some pretty crazy abilities, so if a character's going to be stay on the level-appropriate train, at high levels characters have to get abilities that are likewise a little crazy. It's not unreasonable, but it does require that you decide for yourself and your games what a character should be able to do at level 15.<br />
:To get an idea...Look up a Marut. It's in the SRD. It's got Dimension Door at will, so a combat person can't stay back and used range. It can cast Earthquake to turn you into an instant fossil and it can cast Plane Shift so if it wanted, it could actually ''send you to Hell'' and its melee abilities can either blind or stun you, as well as do 2d6 + 12 + 3d6....<br />
:...and at level 15, your character is supposed to be able to usefully contribute to the party being able to beat it while expending only 20% of their useable resources. If you're a PHB fighter or monk, good luck with that.[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 03:03, 8 November 2008 (MST)<br />
::Monks get abundant step at level 11, the marut is cr 15<br />
:::Are you really suggesting that the ability to Dimension Door once per day helps you keep up with a critter than can Dimension Door every round?<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
How about when you get the feat you start off with the first benefit. Then the next level if you meet the first BAB req, then you get that ability, then the next level, you get the next ability and so on and ect. So, if you meet the highest req, like 16 BAB, then you gain one ability from the feat each level. --[[User:T G Geko|T G Geko]] 15:09, 16 May 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:Well, you interpreted it right, although that is an interesting progression idea you have there. The point is that if you take a feat at a level between the upgrade points (which are levels 1, 6, 11, and 16 if you've got Full BAB or max ranks) you get an ability that's appropriate for you to have at your level. Basically, around the time you get to level 11 and definitely by the time you've reached level 16, you've reached that area of DnD known as CrazyTown, and CrazyTown does not much care for combat people--if you're going to be able to contribute against the monsters above level 10 as something other than a target to distract them from attacking the people who do the real damage...You're going to need some likewise crazy abilities. I'd suggest trying it out however it works for you, though. [[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 23:02, 22 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
:Use the stuff here with whatever caveats you're comfortable with. Just understand that there are some basic assumptions underlying what's gone in here, and you might be surprised if you tried it as written.[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 22:24, 16 May 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::Couldn't we just use the old feats but make them available at every level? That would seem a lot simpler. Furthermore, it would allow characters to become more diversified without having this newer <br />
:::The old feats are awful. Compare Whirlwind Attack to the Fireball spell. At 7th level, a wizard can cast 3-4 Fireballs a day for 22 damage at range as a standard. A fighter can attack 8-15 enemies (if they all happen to surround him) with a Full Round action. These are not even remotely equivalent, and it only gets worse from there. {{Unsigned|163.181.251.115|10:17, 9 June 2008 (MDT)}}<br />
<br />
== Featured Article Nomination ==<br />
<br />
Frank and K stuff was always gold, I read this before and it's still tasty now. So I figured, why not? Give them a little bit in the spotlight, FA, here we go. -- [[User:Eiji|Eiji]] 21:04, 7 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
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'''Support''' &mdash; This article is well thought out and over-all well done. It is the type of article others should strive for.--[[User:Ramses IV|Ramses IV]] 21:07, 7 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
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'''Support''' &mdash; I support this article, if you wanna know why, just read it.-[[User:Risek|Risek]] 21:48, 7 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
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:Sure, only...what is it? A campaign Setting or something? --[[User:Sir Milo Teabag|Sir Milo Teabag]] 13:32, 17 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
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::It's an article...thing about what rules work and what rules don't, with suggested changes to help things work better. There's three previous Tomes on here--the Tome of Necromancy, the Tome of Fiends, and the Dungeonomicon. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 09:04, 21 June 2008 (MDT)<br />
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'''Support''' &mdash; I wouldn't have posted this if I didn't think it was worthy of being on here. It helps melee characters actively contribute alongside the casters, and it's entertaining and thought-provoking besides. [[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 11:20, 25 July 2008 (MDT)<br />
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'''Support''' &mdash; and I came on to put this back in its original form. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 21:18, 31 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
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'''Comment''' &mdash; I think this page gets the award for longest table of contents. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 05:02, 8 November 2008 (MST)<br />
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:Ain't that the truth? But there's a lot of material and, well, if someone's going to use this, at least they have a quick reference/link. [[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 12:38, 10 November 2008 (MST)<br />
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::Actually, GreenDragon, this might be forward of me, but maybe you could set up a sub-category in D&D Other for the Frank & K Tome material? And then the articles could be split down into their component parts, and we wouldn't have these, for example, 206 KB articles to sort through.[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 20:59, 10 November 2008 (MST)<br />
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:::[[DnD Sourcebooks]] for all the sourcebooks on D&D Wiki. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 11:33, 6 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
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'''Support''': Now that I've broken it down into sub pages its much more manageable. The information is vast and would be a great addition to our main page. &nbsp;<small><span style="border: 1px solid blue; -moz-border-radius:10px">[[User:Hooper|'''<span style="background-color:White; color:FireBrick; -moz-border-radius-topleft:10px; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:10px"> Hooper </span>''']][[User talk:Hooper|<span style="background-color:red; color:blue; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:10px; -moz-border-radius-topleft:10px">&nbsp;&nbsp;talk&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Hooper|<span style="background-color:red; color:blue">&nbsp;&nbsp;contribs&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]][[Special:Emailuser/Hooper|<span style="background-color:red; color:blue; -moz-border-radius-bottomright:10px; -moz-border-radius-topright:10px">&nbsp;&nbsp;email&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]]</span></small> 08:01, 9 January 2009 (MST)<br />
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'''Support''': Just stumbled across this and all I can say is wow. Lots of interesting ideas and concepts put forth that I'd never really thought about before. [[User:Jota|Jota]] 10:11, 9 January 2009 (MST)<br />
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'''Comment''': It appears as if this one may have enough support to become the FA. &nbsp;<small><span style="border: 1px solid blue; -moz-border-radius:10px">[[User:Hooper|'''<span style="background-color:White; color:FireBrick; -moz-border-radius-topleft:10px; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:10px"> Hooper </span>''']][[User talk:Hooper|<span style="background-color:red; color:blue; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:10px; -moz-border-radius-topleft:10px">&nbsp;&nbsp;talk&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Hooper|<span style="background-color:red; color:blue">&nbsp;&nbsp;contribs&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]][[Special:Emailuser/Hooper|<span style="background-color:red; color:blue; -moz-border-radius-bottomright:10px; -moz-border-radius-topright:10px">&nbsp;&nbsp;email&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]]</span></small> 09:17, 14 January 2009 (MST)<br />
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'''Comment''': Well, of course its great. Rarely is an article actually both interesting and fun to read (especially one this long, without it feeling like work). But, unfortunately, it has essentially no wiki formatting or language links. If its gonna be a Featured Article, its gonna need those. Additionally it would be nice to have an image for this article as well, something along the lines of a mocked-up book cover of sorts. Something professional looking to show off on the front page for being a Featured Article. --[[User:Ganteka|Ganteka]] 13:18, 11 February 2009 (MST)<br />
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::The base classes should be links (they already exist on the Wiki), the PrCs also need to be split out. Aside from that, what else in terms of formatting needs to be improved? [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 13:20, 11 February 2009 (MST)<br />
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'''Comment''' &mdash; I think this needs to be made into a sourcebook, comparable to [[Arachonomicon; the Book of Spiderkind (4e Sourcebook)]] (just for 3.5e and included in a new section made for 3.5e sourcebooks). That should solve many of the formatting issues and make for a nicer presentation. As well as that it will no longer be in other. And then the categories could be changed. Instead of [[:Category:Tome]] it could be changed to [[:Category:Sourcebook]] and then [[:Category:Races of War Sourebook]] could be added to all of the corresponding pages. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 03:43, 14 March 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:For the sourcebook: sure. There was no sourcebook preload to begin with, which is why that didn't happen. In fact, there's still no Sourcebook preload or breadcrumb for 3.5e, only 4e. But as for the category change -- I'd have to say no. There is a decent amount of general 'Tome' stuff that doesn't actually fall into one of the four Tome sourcebooks. I also cannot edit the "Add new" page to make an entry for sourcebooks. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 10:43, 14 March 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::All the information on [[Dungeons and Dragons]] is actually pulled to from each individual page, so you can add [[DnD Sourcebooks]] (when made) to that page yourself (it uses [[Template:x0]]). Admin rights are not needed.<br />
::And about the tome category. What constitutes a tome then? Would [[Tome of Battle]], etc be in [[:Category:Tome]] too? I mean it is just a name attached onto sourcebooks. Although I see the problem. You want to make it so all the information from the three tomes from Frank and K is together in the same category. What if instead a category of [[:Category:Frank and K]] was added and then you could use a dpl to get the results you want. Also each sourcebooks would have their one category (like [[:Category:Races of War Sourcebook]], etc). --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 19:28, 14 March 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:::Sorry about any confusion; Surgo and I and most of the people who use Frank and K's material tend to refer to it as 'Tome' Material (Tome of Necromancy, Tome of Fiends, Dungeonomicon, Races of War. There's also the incomplete Book of Gears and the odd bit written by one or the other when people ask or whatever). There's been some suggestions to name them collectively as 'Tome of Awesome' or similar, but none of the names have stuck. -- [[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 19:36, 14 March 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::::So why not call it "Frank and K Material"? It would then also fit the same organizational structure as the the publication list (starting at somewhere like [[Publishers of d20 and D&D Products]] onwards), however on a new area created for Homebrew options. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 19:59, 14 March 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:::::Two reasons: one, it's always been called "Tome" and second, there are more people writing stuff for it out there than just those two. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 21:15, 14 March 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::::::Why is "Frank and K" given more credit then the other people behind the project? Why not just have each item have it's author attached all under the name of the sourcebook. So, for example, if [[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] made the [[Dragon Lancer (DnD Prestige Class)]] then he/she would have his/her name on it instead of "Frank and K". Keeping in mind that if "Frank and K" made the item they would have their name on it still, of course. And then all the items would be attached by the sourcebook category. It would be like if someone made something spider oriented for fourth edition, talked to [[User:Sam Kay|Sam Kay]], and got it added into [[Arachonomicon; the Book of Spiderkind (4e Sourcebook)]]. Almost the same idea as here, saving that this was just done earlier and not through D&D Wiki.<br />
::::::Although then what should be done to get all the sourcebooks made by "Frank and K" together? Simple. Since everything would be linked to by categories one can cross-reference them to get the results you want. This would produce the non-content pages of these sourcebooks.<br />
::::::<nowiki><DPL></nowiki><br />
::::::&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<nowiki>debug=1</nowiki><br />
::::::&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<nowiki>category=DnD</nowiki><br />
::::::&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<nowiki>category=User</nowiki><br />
::::::&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<nowiki>category=Sourebook</nowiki><br />
::::::&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<nowiki>category=Tome of Fiends Sourebook|Tome of Necromancy Sourcebook|Dungeonomicon Sourebook|Races of War Sourebook|Book of Gears Sourebook</nowiki><br />
::::::&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<nowiki>order=ascending</nowiki><br />
::::::<nowiki></DPL></nowiki><br />
::::::This would produce everything related to the "Frank and K" books.<br />
::::::<nowiki><DPL></nowiki><br />
::::::&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<nowiki>debug=1</nowiki><br />
::::::&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<nowiki>category=DnD</nowiki><br />
::::::&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<nowiki>category=Tome of Fiends Sourebook|Tome of Necromancy Sourcebook|Dungeonomicon Sourebook|Races of War Sourebook|Book of Gears Sourebook</nowiki><br />
::::::&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<nowiki>order=ascending</nowiki><br />
::::::<nowiki></DPL></nowiki><br />
::::::--[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 09:58, 15 March 2009 (MDT)<br />
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'''Comment''' &mdash; This needs to be formatted as per the [[3.5e Sourcebook Preload]]. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 08:50, 25 March 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:It has now been made into a sourcebook and formatted correctly. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 00:14, 1 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::I know links were added to the classes, but why not do the same for all the other things which that can be done to? Such as the feats, races, etc. Not only does it make it so more people will see this sourcebook's material, but it also un-clutters a lot of the sub-pages. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 11:31, 6 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:::For the feats...how could I make them even follow the normal feat template? The races don't really follow the preload very much -- most of those sections are unused. If that's fine, tell me and I'll work on splitting them out too, but I don't quite see the point of splitting out an entire sourcebook's content from the sourcebook itself. What's the point of even having a sourcebook section in that case? [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 12:44, 6 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::::If these races do not fit into the race preload (no fluff for example) then I agree they should just be kept as is. The reason for splitting up pages is so the content can be seen by more people and not just people who find this through [[DnD Sourcebooks]]. If you feel that they would not work as a stand-alone D&D creation (no fluff, different rule sets, etc) then just keep it on this page. But I would say move what you can (so more people see the contents). --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 12:55, 6 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
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'''Comment''' &mdash; All FA's need an image. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 11:32, 6 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:I'll dig one up. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 11:37, 6 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::Is this wiki allowed to use those free art samples they give out on the Wizards website? And a second question: Would a title image, rather than than an image of soldiers fighting, be allowable? --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 11:42, 6 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:::What do you mean by a title image? Something like D&D Wiki's logo or something like the image on [[Arachonomicon; the Book of Spiderkind (4e Sourcebook)]] (with a title and image)? And I am not sure about the free art samples... I know we use one as our background and on a few other pages, but on wikipedia they just link to them and do not host them on their own servers. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 12:15, 6 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::::Yes, that's it. A logo. That's what I was thinking of. And, all ight on the images. If nothing else, I'll poke around and find an online artist with a suitably warlike picture and ask their permission. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 13:10, 6 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:Why, exactly? Some times, no image is appropriate. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 12:41, 6 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
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'''Support''': This "book" has really put things in perspective about the differences in power between magic and melee. --[[User:T G Geko|T G Geko]] 09:59, 7 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
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== Stop changing the mechanics ==<br />
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Anonymous people need to stop going through and changing mechanics, especially mechanics they don't understand. I just went through and removed a bunch of unwarranted changes by a few anonymice and put the document back to the way it was originally. No typo correction, newly created tables, etc. were changed, just random edits that changed mechanics without reason. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 21:17, 31 August 2008 (MDT)<br />
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: I can protect it from IP if you like?--[[User:Lord Dhazriel|Lord Dhazriel]] 12:01, 14 January 2009 (MST)<br />
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==Tried to Straighten This Discussion Out==<br />
I noticed it was a little disorganized, and there were comments on here that were in the middle of other comments, so...yeah...[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 03:02, 8 November 2008 (MST)<br />
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==Picture==<br />
Thanks, Rith. That picture has just the right amount of cheese on it and...actually, there's no way he could be a background character, so that's another plus. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 09:55, 24 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
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==Monster Conversions... not... making... sense==<br />
Could someone please help me with F&K's monster conversions? I tried following his steps in creating a PC-playable bugbear race, and I totally failed. I got a Bugbear with -2 Intelligence, and then I looked at their work and they had +4 Strength, +2 Constitution, +2 Dexterity, -2 Charisma... I don't understand. Please, halp! --[[User:For Valor|For Valor]] 11:06, 6 July 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:It's unsaid in the book, but the bugbear is one of the monsters that specifically was ''not'' built using the elite array (it uses the standard array instea). [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 12:15, 6 July 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::Alright, gotcha. So for future reference, when should I use the elite stat array and when should I use the standard one?<br />
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:::Anything with no LA listed uses the elite array. The rest, unfortunately, is not so obvious and requires your best judgment. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 23:42, 6 July 2009 (MDT)<br />
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==Picture Change==<br />
I've looked at the new one, waited a day or two, looked at it again...Decided I didn't like it. The other one wasn't exactly perfect, but it did have a cheesy retro look, like the early DnD box set covers--and it had the title of the article on it. Maybe the Tome Fighter page pic could be captioned or something... --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 09:07, 28 August 2009 (MDT)<br />
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==Comment==<br />
I see where this is leading to and I do not like it.<br />
This is supposed to improve the balance .<br />
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Balance between casters and non casters<br />
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The problem with this is that balance between casters and noncasters is something that depents on situation.<br />
And the DM decides about the situation...<br />
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Most simples case: The adventure today plays in a dungeon that is completly inside a antimagic field, dead or caotic magic zone...<br />
Spellcasters still overpowered?<br />
<br />
It do not have to be so bad every time<br />
Spells need material commponets and foci that can but do not have to be avaible..<br />
<br />
Furthermore the power of a spellcaster is not constant.<br />
With every spell he cast he is losing power.<br />
<br />
An inteligent enemy knows that.<br />
He sends minions or just waits for his time.<br />
Until the spellcaster has burned his energy or is just preparde for something else and then the enemy strikes.<br />
To counteract this a spellcaster has to safe energy.<br />
And while he safes energy the non casters do thier job.<br />
A spellcasters that is constantly stealing the other characters the show is just someone who needs to be taught that his life depends on saving energy.<br />
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So as long as a fighter is much stronger then a spellcaster without spells.<br />
And much weaker then a spellcaster with full spells.<br />
The DM can always run the game in a style that let both contribute the same...<br />
<br />
Balance between caracters and monsters<br />
Who wants this?<br />
Balance between charcaters an monsters means that in 50% of the cases the Caracters will die...<br />
And that means you will basically never see them with level 5+...<br />
The CR was not constructed for balance but for "Can just be beaten up."<br />
Why are the monsters than so much stronger then the characters of the same level?<br />
Synergies! The game is a group game the group is much stronger than sum of its parts.<br />
Please note that one wants to have synergies to make the group work together.<br />
The CR is designed to fit for this.<br />
So it is NOT designed to fit without.<br />
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There are not only optimal character builds there are also optimal group builds.<br />
If you use a suboptimal group build then the CR has to be addapted...<br />
This problem exists what ever kind of classes you use as long as you has synergies.<br />
<br />
So what is really changes when one is using this source books<br />
Before the DM has to force the casters to save energy.<br />
Now he has to let them throw it out because otherwise the noncasters get all the action. <br />
The typical encounter has to go with higher CR because every body is stronger.<br />
<br />
The casters has to think a little bit less because they have to burn their stuff anyhow<br />
The fighter has to think more because they have more options.<br />
And everybody is happy.<br />
<br />
No.<br />
The change in balance will be minor<br />
But the change of the world is huge.<br />
In some of the other source books there is stated the society that you will end up with these rules<br />
And I totally believe it.<br />
The D&D heroes are unbelievable strong and this books just make them stronger.<br />
And that is ripping the world appart.<br />
<br />
In SRD the Power of the non casters are limited.<br />
So they can not overpower society so easily.<br />
The power of the spellcasters is not constant. <br />
They CAN overpower society but if they do at the same time paint a big bullseye on they head.<br />
Because then they can easily be watched by an enemy. And the moment they are not prepared...<br />
<br />
This is why in normal D&D setting the role of the princess is not always to prostitute herselve to the high level barbarian.<br />
And an aristrocate may be a better ruler then a fighter because the fighter<br />
has at least one of CH, IN or Wis as a dump score and the aristrocate not...<br />
<br />
But I not doubt that this is well intended. This is made for and from people who wants to rule the country, and wants the princess to marry their IN=Wis=CH= 8 barbarian and like it.<br />
<br />
But who am I to tell people what they do in their free time.<br />
I mean this seriously<br />
Please note that I do not try to rate the classes involved.<br />
I just want to say that there are many D&D worlds that just will not work with these classes.<br />
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PS: I know my english is not a language but a crime. Anybody may feel free to correct my writing errors.<br />
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::You misunderstand the balance between characters and monsters. One character should, ideally, be able to go fifty-fifty with a challenge with a CR equal to his level, with the challenges being things like "bruisers" or "magic-using monsters" and "groups". So you can write character classes to cover different bases. And, basically, D&D is sort of low-fantasy from levels 1-5, medium-fantasy from about five to thirteen, and high fantasy thereafter. Races of War moved the fighty-types to medium fantasy. So different character classes can cover different bases. Oh, and what kind of jerk DM would run an entire adventure in an antimagic field? The fact is, D&D is a game. It should at least make the effort to be fun for everyone involved. And every session of it is ALSO a game, and should be enjoyable. Continually making life hard for the guy playing a wizard is not good policy. Funny enough, there's a crowd out there that, once they have a character that can survive, will just say "There." and enjoy themselves and not try to break the game in half. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 20:52, 15 September 2010 (MDT)</div>Genowhirlhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Fire_Mage_(3.5e_Class)&diff=488965Talk:Fire Mage (3.5e Class)2010-09-09T07:24:20Z<p>Genowhirl: </p>
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<div>== Comment ==<br />
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WOW... [[User:Dino|Dino]] 08:51, 8 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:I actually know the story behind this one. Someone mentioned they had a new player to their DnD group, and the guy wanted to play a blaster-type character. But the person had some concerns about the character being unable to keep up with the rest of the group, who were fairly experienced. So Frank took some time and whipped up the Fire Mage for them, as something easy to play and which can run itself. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 09:34, 8 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
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== Rating == <br />
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'''Power - 5/5''' I give this class a 5 out of 5 because it is well balanced (perhaps a little bit on the weak side) and synergies its abilities in a nice way. --[[User:Aarnott|Aarnott]] 10:34, 16 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
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'''Wording - 5/5''' I give this class a 5 out of 5 because there are no serious grammar/spelling infractions to report. --[[User:Aarnott|Aarnott]] 10:34, 16 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
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<s>'''[[Help:Standards and Formatting (DnD Guideline)|Formatting]] - 4/5'''</s> I give this class a 4 out of 5 because it doesn't implement the extra preload stuff. It might be the preload that needs to be fixed and not the class, however. --[[User:Aarnott|Aarnott]] 10:34, 16 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:Rating negated; see also [[Talk:DnD Base Classes#Some Rating Nonsense Needs to Stop]]. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 12:05, 22 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
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<s>'''Flavor - 5/5'''</s> I give this class a 5 out of 5 because it fits the role of a blaster mage quite well without having to worry about actual spell slots and such. Unique to fill a niche, yet generic enough to diversify. --[[User:Aarnott|Aarnott]] 10:34, 16 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:Rating negated; see also [[Talk:DnD Base Classes#Some Rating Nonsense Needs to Stop]]. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 12:05, 22 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::Why was this part of the rating negated? [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 13:01, 22 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
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== Rating == <br />
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'''Power - 5/5''' I give this class a 5 out of 5 because not over or under powered, a great class to use in game for the average player --[[User:67.181.101.32|67.181.101.32]] 23:24, 8 August 2009 (MDT)<br />
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'''Wording - 3/5''' I give this class a 3 out of 5 because I would just clarify a few points for this class, very good job though --[[User:67.181.101.32|67.181.101.32]] 23:24, 8 August 2009 (MDT)<br />
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'''[[Help:Standards and Formatting (DnD Guideline)|Formatting]] - 5/5''' I give this class a 5 out of 5 because this was easy to convert iver into an actual character and met all v.3.5 standards --[[User:67.181.101.32|67.181.101.32]] 23:24, 8 August 2009 (MDT)<br />
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'''Flavor - 4.5/5''' I give this class a 4.5 out of 5 because very good ideas but not quite what I would call a 5, still very good class --[[User:67.181.101.32|67.181.101.32]] 23:24, 8 August 2009 (MDT)<br />
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== Level Cap ==<br />
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Could you add more levels plz. Cause other than that this class is awesome. {{Unsigned|71.55.253.247|20:42, 10 December 2009 (MST)}}<br />
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:See [[Races of War (3.5e Sourcebook)/Warriors with Class#Base_Classes|here]] as to reasoning behind the reduced number of class levels. -- [[User:Jota|Jota]] 23:07, 10 December 2009 (MST)<br />
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::Classes need to be 20 levels so they, not only follow D&D rules, but also go into epic level. Who cares if the character is not the same &mdash; characters change; it's called gaining levels. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 23:11, 10 December 2009 (MST)<br />
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:::No, they don't ''need'' to be 20 levels. None of the groups I've played with have ever considered dealing with Epic's rules weirdness worth the payoff, and none of the games reached that high. The class is a good class for a new player to help them learn the mechanics and let them kick butt without requiring a lot of system mastery, so it does what it was designed to do. For other things, like the Knight, there's PrCs either written or possible to let them continue. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 23:36, 10 December 2009 (MST)<br />
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::::I thought their was a rule where you need a Base class to have 20 levels and a Prestige Class to have 10 levels in order to qualify for epic levels? But that rule only mentions entry into epic levels, not a necessity of amount of levels required for a class. Take paragon classes for example? --[[User:Jay Freedman|Jay Freedman]] 23:42, 10 December 2009 (MST)<br />
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:::::Glad to hear certain groups you have played with do not reach epic level; that's irrelevant though. In D&D classes have 20 levels. That's what we are talking about. Prestige classes are, of course, different in both rules, epic, epic entry, and non. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 23:43, 10 December 2009 (MST)<br />
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::::::May I point out the amazing simplicity and virtue of just ignoring that rule since it doesn't actually do anything for the game these days? Just like XP rules. It's marvelous how much things smooth out if the party levels up when the DM says they do. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 23:45, 10 December 2009 (MST)<br />
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:::::::Nope. D&D Wiki needs a structure and that is based of D&D. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 23:46, 10 December 2009 (MST)<br />
<br />
::::::::Actually, second thought, I am in error there. It's a good houserule, but the D&D wiki is for normal D&D unless said otherwise. But this is, by Frank's own admission when he wrote this, an otherwise. I don't see what's to gain by making an issue over an intro class being an anomaly when it gets to last five levels of D&D. It fulfills its design goals, it holds its own in a game, it's fun to play. But, then, I've always preferred reason over logic. Logic does get thrown into a snarl when it hits an anomaly. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 23:58, 10 December 2009 (MST)<br />
<br />
:::::::::I was wondering who has the balls to edit one of Frank's classes? I most certainly would never edit one of his classes. Would you? --[[User:Jay Freedman|Jay Freedman]] 00:00, 11 December 2009 (MST)<br />
<br />
::::::::::Oh, I'm not saying this class is going to get deleted or anything. All I am saying is that this class does not meet D&D Wiki's goals for a class. I.e. "''This page is incomplete and/or lacking flavor.''" implying for D&D Wiki and which area &mdash; completeness. --[[User:Green Dragon|Green Dragon]] 00:04, 11 December 2009 (MST)<br />
<br />
:::::::::::I don't see anything that says a base class must have 20 levels. I won't argue that 20 levels is typical, but after glancing through the PHB I saw nothing that would suggest a player must be able to play up to, and beyond, level 20, without having to multiclass. I see no reason to mark this class as incomplete. It's complete in my eyes. --[[User:Badger|Badger]] 21:24, 5 July 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Edit war ==<br />
<br />
There's got to be some compromise here. If this page uses some sort of house rules, then link to them and remove the wikify tag. Otherwise, it doesn't make sense to revert a user for their good-faith effort at bringing this class up to minimum standards for this wiki. I don't know who this "Frank and K" is (are?), but I've seen that name around here enough to know that they are venerated users and their work is just short of divine. However, this is a wiki. If Frank and K creates something on this website, it is no longer their property. It's unfortunate, but that's part of the agreement you make every time you sumbit anything to (almost) any wiki.<br />
<br />
So instead of fruitless edit wars, let's actually try and be productive here. [[User:Jazzman831|Jazz]][[User talk:Jazzman831|Man]] 15:49, 1 May 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:I was wondering when someone would get around to asking. Well, okay, go check the 3.5 Homebrew sourcebooks for Tome of Necromancy, Tome of Fiends, Dungeonomicon, and Races of War. They were written by two guys--Frank and Keith--as spot fixes for some of the knottier parts of D&D rules. The F&K classes around here are (mostly) copied from those, so it does not make sense for them to be out in the Base and Prestige class lists in a different form from the original. Check 'im out if you want to. In any case, this class was written up as an introduction to blasting mages to be handed to beginner players. If you notice, it's very self-contained and even though it's strong, it's hard to swing the power significantly one way or another. It works pretty well right as it is, despite (or perhaps ''because of''?) the unorthodox mechanics it uses. Unorthodox mechanics are, however, unorthodox and people often have a knee-jerk reaction to them. I've been keeping an eye on it to make sure no one just jumps in and changes things around because they can't see how the class can be right. If they have any issues with it, I will be glad to discuss it with them here on the talk pages and we can come to a consensus before they jump the gun.<br />
<br />
:If the classes from wiki sourcebooks could be put in a section unto themselves, that might smooth out some of the problems and require less attention all around to this. Speaking of which, the Homebrew Sourcebook page really needs to get cleaned up; it seems to be serving a sort of junk drawer for oddities on the site right now. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 17:54, 1 May 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::I see now that there is a tiiiiny little category way down at the bottom that says "Tome". I haven't read through the Tome material, but it seems like it should be treated separately than the rest of the content. Maybe even give it a different identifier, like we do with campaign settings. If this were labeled "Fire Mage (3.5e Tome Class)", then it would be clear that this is supposed to use different rules. In addition, a Tome Breadcrumb or NavBox should be used so that you can easily tell what rules are meant to be different.<br />
<br />
::Unfortunately, moving pages has been broken for over a month now, and I don't even know if there's a timeline for when it will get fixed. Cleanup is really hard to do if you can't move things around; it's currently messing up some of the things I want to do. In the mean time, if IPs keep changing this page I'll protect it from anonymous edits. [[User:Jazzman831|Jazz]][[User talk:Jazzman831|Man]] 18:21, 1 May 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::The protect would be very welcome, good sir. As would that category, if the Wiki ever gets straightened out. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 21:17, 1 May 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Rating == <br />
<br />
<br />
'''Power - 5/5''' I give this class a 5 out of 5 because it is over powered --[[Special:Contributions/173.206.96.124|173.206.96.124]] 20:50, 5 July 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
'''Wording - 4/5''' I give this class a 4 out of 5 because it is well thought up and makes sense --[[Special:Contributions/173.206.96.124|173.206.96.124]] 20:50, 5 July 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
'''[[Help:Standards and Formatting (DnD Guideline)|Formatting]] - 2/5''' I give this class a 2 out of 5 because this class is over powered, its not because it doesnt have a spell limit, it can't do enough damage to require a spell limit. it is over powered because the spells it has are too powerfull for it's levels. I edited this class a while back spaceing out the spells and giving the class 20 levels and it makes a world of difference, also the saves are too high and not evened out in the slightest. --[[Special:Contributions/173.206.96.124|173.206.96.124]] 20:50, 5 July 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
'''Flavor - 5/5''' I give this class a 5 out of 5 because you can do alot with a spicy character --[[Special:Contributions/173.206.96.124|173.206.96.124]] 20:50, 5 July 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:5/5 is perfect. If it's overpowered, I don't think you want it to have a perfect power rating. Also, formatting has to do with, uh, formatting, not power rating. [[User:Jazzman831|Jazz]][[User talk:Jazzman831|Man]] 20:52, 5 July 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Copyright Issue==<br />
just to point out to whoever made this page, the picture used is not a free picture, it is owned and not for reproduction, and it is actually the picture of a time mage, she is the main character of a story. <br />
--this guy! 05:02, 5 july 2010(EST)<br />
<br />
:Is this in fact a copyrighted image? Can you tell us more specifically where the image comes from? We'll remove it if need be. --[[User:Badger|Badger]] 21:25, 5 July 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Recent Edits==<br />
Allright, I know you mean well, but this class was intentionally designed as a newbie-friendly class for people who want to play a blaster, to break them in on area-of-effect, damage types, and other relevant mechanics. Spells-per-day is counter-intuitive to that and adds a lot of bookkeeping that a new player doesn't need. Sure, the Fire Mage is strong, but I can't think of any ways to actually swing its power significantly higher or lower and I know a lot of the usual tricks to look for. It's rather hard to mess a fire mage character up, seeing as how their class features are pretty self-contained, and the at-will abilities means the character can last all day, and the abilities to penetrate fire resistance and immunity means they aren't even stonewalled, so they can contribute even when they're fighting a fire giant or something.. The d6's of damage -looks- high, but remember that 10d6 is about 35 damage on average--and level 10 things tend to have HP well over a hundred. If you want to discuss these, please, let's do it. I enjoy talking things out and seeing another viewpoint. But at least know why the class was written like it is. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 01:24, 9 September 2010 (MDT)</div>Genowhirlhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Fire_Mage_(3.5e_Class)&diff=488964Fire Mage (3.5e Class)2010-09-09T07:09:24Z<p>Genowhirl: Undo revision 488958 by 129.15.131.137 (talk)</p>
<hr />
<div>{{stub|Missing 5 levels, epic, and much information found in the preload.}}<br />
{{DnD Base Class Infobox<br />
|img=Pyromancer.jpg<br />
|imgloc=top<br />
|imgsize=300px<br />
|imgcaption="If you can't take the heat..."<br />
|rating_power=5<br />
|raters_power=1<br />
|rating_wording=5<br />
|raters_wording=1<br />
|rating_formatting=<br />
|raters_formatting=<br />
|rating_flavor=<br />
|raters_flavor=<br />
|authors=[[User:Frank and K|Frank and K]]<br />
|datecreated=2007<br />
|status=Complete<br />
|editing=Spelling and grammar only<br />
|type=Spontaneous Spellcasting<br />
|desc=A Fire Mage is a guy who likes fire a lot, and also doesn't completely suck.<br />
}}<br />
<br />
==Fire Mage==<br />
{{quote|Yes, fire ''is'' cool.}}<br />
<br />
A Fire Mage is someone who burns their own soul out to burn the bodies of others. Tactically, they shine against groups of enemies, because fires spread across the battlefield like a plague.<br />
<br />
===Making a Fire Mage===<br />
<br />
'''Alignment:''' Fire is a destructive force, and a lot of Fire Mages are Chaotic. But they don't have to be.<br />
<br />
'''Races:''' Fire Mages appear in all races, though significant portions of many races live in areas where being a Fire Mage is illegal.<br />
<br />
'''Starting Gold:''' 6d6&times;10 gp (210 gp).<br />
<br />
'''[[SRD:Race Descriptions#Starting Age|Starting Age]]:''' As [[SRD:Rogue|Rogue]].<br />
<br />
{| class="{{d20}}"<br />
|+<br />
<div>{{#anc:Table: The Fire Mage}}</div><br />
Hit Die: d8<br />
|-<br />
! rowspan="2" | Level<br />
! rowspan="2" | [[BAB|Base<br/>Attack Bonus]]<br />
! colspan="3" | [[SRD:Saving Throw|Saving Throw]]s<br />
! rowspan="2" | Special<br />
|-<br />
! [[SRD:Saving Throw#Fortitude|Fort]] || [[SRD:Saving Throw#Reflex|Ref]] || [[SRD:Saving Throw#Will|Will]]<br />
|-<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|1st|| class="left" | +0 || +2 || +2 || +2<br />
| class="left" | [[#Fire Resistance|Fire Resistance]], [[#Fire Burst|Fire Burst]], [[#Fire Bolts|Fire Bolts]], [[#Impress Flames|Impress Flames]], [[#Fire Magic|Fire Magic]]<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|2nd|| class="left" | +1 || +3 || +3 || +3<br />
| class="left" | [[#Ignite|Ignite]]<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|3rd|| class="left" | +2 || +3 || +3 || +3<br />
| class="left" | [[#Piercing Flames|Piercing Flames]], [[#Hand of Fire|Hand of Fire]]<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|4th||class="left" | +3 || +4 || +4 || +4<br />
| class="left" | [[#Fire Immunity|Fire Immunity]], [[#Smokeless Flame|Smokeless Flame]]<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|5th||class="left" | +3 || +4 || +4 || +4<br />
| class="left" | [[#Fireballs|Fireballs]]<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|6th||class="left" | +4 || +5 || +5 || +5<br />
| class="left" | [[#Mindfire|Mindfire]]<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|7th||class="left" | +5 || +5 || +5 || +5<br />
| class="left" | [[#Visions of Flame|Visions of Flame]]<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|8th||class="left" | +6/+1 || +6 || +6 || +6<br />
| class="left" | [[#Soul of Cinders|Soul of Cinders]]<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|9th||class="left" | +6/+1 || +6 || +6 || +6<br />
| class="left" | [[#Sculpt Flames|Sculpt Flames]]<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|10th||class="left" | +7/+2 || +7 || +7 || +7<br />
| class="left" | [[#Conflagration|Conflagration]]<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|11th||class="left" | +8/+3 || +7 || +7 || +7<br />
| class="left" | [[#Beacon|Beacon]], [[#Firewalk|Firewalk]]<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|12th||class="left" | +9/+4 || +8 || +8 || +8<br />
| class="left" | [[#Bonds of Fire|Bonds of Fire]]<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|13th||class="left" | +9/+4 || +8 || +8 || +8<br />
| class="left" | [[#Fire Clouds|Fire Clouds]]<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|14th||class="left" | +10/+5 || +9 || +9 || +9<br />
| class="left" | [[#Searing Light|Searing Light]], [[#Ray of Light|Ray of Light]]<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|15th||class="left" | +11/+6/+6 || +9 || +9 || +9<br />
| class="left" | [[#Sending|Sending]], [[#Rain of Fire|Rain of Fire]]<br />
|}<br />
'''Class Skills (4 + [[SRD:Intelligence|Int]] modifier per level, &times;4 at 1st level)'''<br/><br />
Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Concentration (Con), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (-), Ride (Dex), Search (Int), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), and Use Rope (Dex).<br />
<br />
====Class Features====<br />
<br />
All of the following are class features of the Fire Mage.<br />
<br />
'''Weapon and Armor Proficiency:''' Fire Mages are proficient with all simple weapons, as well as the whip, all martial axes, and all sizes and varieties of scimitar (including falchions). Fire Mages are proficient with light armor but not with shields of any kind.<br />
<br />
'''{{#anc:Fire Resistance}} ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Extraordinary|Ex]]):''' A Fire Mage has a Resistance to Fire equal to twice his level.<br />
<br />
'''''{{#anc:Fire Burst}}'' ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Spell-Like|Sp]]):''' As a standard action, a Fire Mage can emit a burst of flame from his body, striking all creatures and objects within 10' of his position except himself. This burst of flames inflicts 1d6 of fire damage, with an allowed Reflex Save for half (DC 10 + {{1/2}} Level + Charisma Modifier).<br />
<br />
'''''{{#anc:Fire Bolts}}'' ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Spell-Like|Sp]]):''' A fire mage can throw bolts of fire as an attack action. A fire bolt travels out to short range, and inflicts 1d6 of fire damage per level. A fire bolt strikes its target with a ranged touch attack.<br />
<br />
'''{{#anc:Impress Flames}} ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Extraordinary|Ex]]):''' Every time a Fire Mage inflicts Fire damage on any target, whether with his class abilities or another source of fire, he inflicts an amount of extra Fire Damage equal to his class level or his Charisma modifier, whichever is less.<br />
<br />
'''{{#anc:Fire Magic}} ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Extraordinary|Ex]]):''' A Fire Mage is considered to have every spell with the Fire Descriptor on his spell list for the purpose of activating magic items.<br />
<br />
'''''{{#anc:Ignite}}'' ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Spell-Like|Sp]]):''' As a standard action, a 2nd level Fire Mage can cause any creature or object to burst into flame. A creature on fire suffers 1d6 of Fire damage per round (the Mage's Impress Flames ability applies to each round of course), and the creature can attempt to put itself out with a DC 15 Reflex save (see the DMG, p. 303). This ability can be used out to Medium range, and it always hits.<br />
<br />
'''{{#anc:Piercing Flames}} ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Extraordinary|Ex]]):''' From 3rd level on, a Fire Mage's Fire cuts through Fire Resistance, hardness, and Immunity. No more than {{1/2}} of the damage inflicted by his fire damage can be negated by hardness or immunity or resistance to Fire. In addition, the Fire Mage ignores the first 5 points of Fire Resistance that a target has.<br />
<br />
'''{{#anc:Hand of Fire}} ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Supernatural|Su]]):''' A 3rd level Fire Mage can set fire to their own body, causing them to count as armed at all times, even with unarmed attacks. The Fire Mage also causes an extra 1d6 of Fire damage with all melee attacks.<br />
<br />
'''{{#anc:Fire Immunity}} ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Extraordinary|Ex]]):''' A 4th level Fire Mage is immune to Fire.<br />
<br />
'''''{{#anc:Smokeless Flame}}'' ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Spell-Like|Sp]]):''' A 4th level Fire Mage can create fires that produce no heat and do not burn. These fires can be anything from the size of a torch to a bonfire, and produce light accordingly. Each lasts until the next time the sun rises. Smokeless Flame can be created anywhere within Medium range.<br />
<br />
'''''{{#anc:Fireballs}}'' ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Spell-Like|Sp]]):''' A 5th level Fire Mage can hurl explosive fire anywhere within Long Range as a Full Round Action. This Fire explodes into a 20' radius burst and inflicts 1d6 of Fire Damage per level. All creatures within the area are entitled to a Reflex save to halve damage (DC 10 + {{1/2}} Level + Charisma Modifier).<br />
<br />
'''''{{#anc:Mindfire}}'' ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Spell-Like|Sp]]):''' A 6th level Fire Mage can start a Fire in a creature's mind, duplicating the effects of ''[[SRD:Rage|rage]]'' or ''[[SRD:Confusion|confusion]]'' for a number of minutes equal to his Level. The victim must be within Medium Range, and is entitled to a Will Save to negate this effect (DC 10 + {{1/2}} Level + Charisma Modifier). This is a Mind influencing Compulsion effect.<br />
<br />
'''''{{#anc:Visions of Flame}}'' ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Spell-Like|Sp]]):''' A 7th level Fire Mage can ''[[SRD:Contact Other Plane|contact other plane]]'' to communicate with the denizens of the Elemental Plane of Fire. A Fire Mage is in no danger of becoming insane or damaged by this experience.<br />
<br />
'''''{{#anc:Soul of Cinders}}'' ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Spell-Like|Sp]]):''' An 8th level Fire Mage has burnt his soul to ash, and is no longer susceptible to Energy Drain or Fear.<br />
<br />
'''''{{#anc:Sculpt Flames}}'' ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Spell-Like|Sp]]):''' A 9th level Fire Mage can create delicate shapes and walls made of fire. The Fire is fully shapeable, but cannot pass through more than 2 squares per level. Any creature passing through a square with fire in it suffers 1d6 of fire damage per level. A creature which is in a square that is being filled with fire is entitled to a Reflex Save (DC 10 + {{1/2}} Level + Charisma Modifier) to move to the nearest non-flaming square as an immediate action. These fires persist for 1 round per level. Alternately, the Fire Mage can replicate a ''[[SRD:Wall of Fire|wall of fire]]'' which persists for 1 minute per level.<br />
<br />
'''''{{#anc:Conflagration}}'' ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Spell-Like|Sp]]):''' At 10th level, a Fire Mage can surround himself with a nimbus of flames that extends for 10' in all directions from his person. All other targets in this area suffer a d10 of Fire Damage per level, but are entitled to a Reflex Save (DC 10 + {{1/2}} Level + Charisma Modifier). In addition, a Fire Mage can cast ''[[SRD:Fire Shield|fire shield]]'' at will (Hot Shield only).<br />
<br />
'''''{{#anc:Beacon}}'' ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Spell-Like|Sp]]):''' An 11th level Fire Mage can create a magically permanent bonfire as a standard action. He always knows exactly where each Beacon he has created is and will know if it is put out by any means.<br />
<br />
'''''{{#anc:Firewalk}}'' ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Spell-Like|Sp]]):''' At 11th level a Fire Mage can walk into any fire large enough to fit his person and appear in any other fire that is likewise of sufficient size anywhere on any plane of existence. The Fire Mage must know where the target fire is. The Fire Mage can take any number of willing creatures or carried objects that are also able to fit in both flames.<br />
<br />
'''''{{#anc:Bonds of Fire}}'' ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Spell-Like|Sp]]):''' A 12th level Fire Mage can craft solid fire and entrap a victim in it. The bonds will immobilize a creature which fails a Reflex Save (DC 10 + {{1/2}} Level + Charisma Modifier), and will ''[[SRD:Entangle|entangle]]'' the creature unless it succeeds in its save by more than 5. A creature can attempt to escape by taking a Full round action to make a Strength or Escape Artist test with a DC equal to the [[SRD:Use Rope|Use Rope]] Skill Result of the Fire Mage. The victim suffers 20 points of Fire Damage per round, and the bonds of fire last until the victim escapes or the Fire Mage dismisses them.<br />
<br />
'''''{{#anc:Fire Clouds}}'' ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Spell-Like|Sp]]):''' As a Full Round Action, a 13th level Fire Mage can create huge billowing clouds of Fire. The Fire Clouds must be created within Long range, and persist for 3 rounds whether they are still in range or not. The cloud is shapeable, and covers at most 3 10' cubes per Level. Each round, everyone and everything inside the cloud suffers 1d6 of Fire damage per level, but is entitled to a Reflex save for half damage (DC 10 + {{1/2}} Level + Charisma Modifier).<br />
<br />
'''''{{#anc:Searing Light}}'' ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Spell-Like|Sp]]):''' A 14th level Fire Mage can call levels of illumination that are painful and destructive as the unmitigated baleful glare of the sun itself. All darkness within 5 miles is dispelled, and everything is illuminated. All undead suffer 10 points of damage per round. All creatures specifically vulnerable to light suffer 10 damage per round (thus, vampires suffer 20 damage per round). All creatures are [[SRD:Dazzled|Dazzled]]. Creatures must pass a Fortitude save (DC 10 + {{1/2}} Level + Charisma Modifier) every minute or become [[SRD:Blinded|blind]] for the remainder of the effect. Creatures that are blinded when the effect ends are entitled to another Fortitude save to get their vision back, but if they fail this save the blinding is permanent. This effect lasts until the Fire Mage dismisses it or he is incapacitated.<br />
<br />
'''''{{#anc:Ray of Light}}'' ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Spell-Like|Sp]]):''' As an attack action, a 14th level Fire Mage can fire a ray of Light at any target within Short Range. It inflicts 1d6 of Light Damage per level if it hits with a Ranged Touch Attack. Undead take 10 extra damage. Creatures specifically vulnerable to Light suffer an additional 10 damage.<br />
<br />
'''''{{#anc:Sending}}'' ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Spell-Like|Sp]]):''' A 15th level Fire Mage can send a message, as the ''[[SRD:Sending|sending]]'' spell to any creature on any plane of existence with a standard action and receive a reply even if they are on different planes of existence.<br />
<br />
'''''{{#anc:Rain of Fire}}'' ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Spell-Like|Sp]]):''' At 15th level, the Fire Mage can open the skies and dump raw inferno upon all who would oppose him. The fires inflict 1d6 of Fire Damage per level, and victims are permitted a Reflex save (DC 10 + {{1/2}} level + Charisma Modifier). The Fire Mage chooses which squares are struck with fire, and the only limits to how many squares can burn is how many squares the Fire Mage can see. There are no range limits to this power save line of sight.<br />
<br />
===External Links===<br />
* [http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?p=40214 Source]<br />
<br />
<br />
----<br />
{{DnD Base Classes Breadcrumb}}<br />
[[Category:DnD]]<br />
[[Category:3.5e]]<br />
[[Category:User]]<br />
[[Category:Class]]<br />
[[Category:Base Class]]<br />
[[Category:Spontaneous Spellcasting]]<br />
[[Category:Tome]]</div>Genowhirlhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Fire_Mage_(3.5e_Class)&diff=488963Fire Mage (3.5e Class)2010-09-09T07:08:52Z<p>Genowhirl: Undo revision 488959 by 129.15.131.137 (talk)</p>
<hr />
<div>{{stub|Missing 5 levels, epic, and much information found in the preload.}}<br />
{{DnD Base Class Infobox<br />
|img=Pyromancer.jpg<br />
|imgloc=top<br />
|imgsize=300px<br />
|imgcaption="If you can't take the heat..."<br />
|rating_power=5<br />
|raters_power=1<br />
|rating_wording=5<br />
|raters_wording=1<br />
|rating_formatting=<br />
|raters_formatting=<br />
|rating_flavor=<br />
|raters_flavor=<br />
|authors=[[User:Frank and K|Frank and K]]<br />
|datecreated=2007<br />
|status=Complete<br />
|editing=Spelling and grammar only<br />
|type=Spontaneous Spellcasting<br />
|desc=A Fire Mage is a guy who likes fire a lot, and also doesn't completely suck.<br />
}}<br />
<br />
==Fire Mage==<br />
{{quote|Yes, fire ''is'' cool.}}<br />
<br />
A Fire Mage is someone who burns their own soul out to burn the bodies of others. Tactically, they shine against groups of enemies, because fires spread across the battlefield like a plague.<br />
<br />
===Making a Fire Mage===<br />
<br />
'''Alignment:''' Fire is a destructive force, and a lot of Fire Mages are Chaotic. But they don't have to be.<br />
<br />
'''Races:''' Fire Mages appear in all races, though significant portions of many races live in areas where being a Fire Mage is illegal.<br />
<br />
'''Starting Gold:''' 6d6&times;10 gp (210 gp).<br />
<br />
'''[[SRD:Race Descriptions#Starting Age|Starting Age]]:''' As [[SRD:Rogue|Rogue]].<br />
<br />
{| class="{{d20}}"<br />
|+<br />
<div>{{#anc:Table: The Fire Mage}}</div><br />
Hit Die: d8<br />
|-<br />
! rowspan="2" | Level<br />
! rowspan="2" | [[BAB|Base<br/>Attack Bonus]]<br />
! colspan="3" | [[SRD:Saving Throw|Saving Throw]]s<br />
! rowspan="2" | Special<br />
! colspan="9" | [[#Spells|Spells per Day]]<br />
|-<br />
! [[SRD:Saving Throw#Fortitude|Fort]] || [[SRD:Saving Throw#Reflex|Ref]] || [[SRD:Saving Throw#Will|Will]]<br />
! 0 || 1<sup>st</sup> || 2<sup>nd</sup> || 3<sup>rd</sup> || 4<sup>th</sup> || 5<sup>th</sup> || 6<sup>th</sup> || 7<sup>th</sup> <br />
<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|1st|| class="left" | +0 || +2 || +2 || +2 <br />
| class="left" | [[#Fire Resistance|Fire Resistance]], [[#Fire Burst|Fire Burst]], [[#Fire Bolts|Fire Bolts]], [[#Impress Flames|Impress Flames]], [[#Fire Magic|Fire Magic]] <br />
|2||1||—||—||—||—||—||-<br />
<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|2nd|| class="left" | +1 || +3 || +3 || +3<br />
| class="left" | [[#Ignite|Ignite]]<br />
|2||2||—||—||—||—||—||-<br />
<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|3rd|| class="left" | +2 || +3 || +3 || +3<br />
| class="left" | [[#Piercing Flames|Piercing Flames]], [[#Hand of Fire|Hand of Fire]]<br />
|3||2||1||—||—||—||—||-<br />
<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|4th||class="left" | +3 || +4 || +4 || +4<br />
| class="left" | [[#Fire Immunity|Fire Immunity]], [[#Smokeless Flame|Smokeless Flame]]<br />
|3||2||1||1||—||—||—||-<br />
<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|5th||class="left" | +3 || +4 || +4 || +4<br />
| class="left" | [[#Fireballs|Fireballs]]<br />
|4||3||2||1||—||—||—||-<br />
<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|6th||class="left" | +4 || +5 || +5 || +5<br />
| class="left" | [[#Mindfire|Mindfire]]<br />
|4||3||2||2||1||—||—||-<br />
<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|7th||class="left" | +5 || +5 || +5 || +5<br />
| class="left" | [[#Visions of Flame|Visions of Flame]]<br />
|4||4||2||2||1||—||—||-<br />
<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|8th||class="left" | +6/+1 || +6 || +6 || +6<br />
| class="left" | [[#Soul of Cinders|Soul of Cinders]]<br />
|4||4||3||2||2||—||—||-<br />
<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|9th||class="left" | +6/+1 || +6 || +6 || +6<br />
| class="left" | [[#Sculpt Flames|Sculpt Flames]]<br />
|4||4||3||3||2||1||—||-<br />
<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|10th||class="left" | +7/+2 || +7 || +7 || +7<br />
| class="left" | [[#Conflagration|Conflagration]]<br />
|4||4||4||3||2||1||—||-<br />
<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|11th||class="left" | +8/+3 || +7 || +7 || +7<br />
| class="left" | [[#Beacon|Beacon]], [[#Firewalk|Firewalk]]<br />
|4||4||4||4||3||2||—||-<br />
<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|12th||class="left" | +9/+4 || +8 || +8 || +8<br />
| class="left" | [[#Bonds of Fire|Bonds of Fire]]<br />
|4||4||4||4||3||2||1||-<br />
<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|13th||class="left" | +9/+4 || +8 || +8 || +8<br />
| class="left" | [[#Fire Clouds|Fire Clouds]]<br />
|4||4||4||4||4||2||1||-<br />
<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|14th||class="left" | +10/+5 || +9 || +9 || +9<br />
| class="left" | [[#Searing Light|Searing Light]], [[#Ray of Light|Ray of Light]]<br />
|4||4||4||4||4||3||1||-<br />
<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|15th||class="left" | +11/+6/+6 || +9 || +9 || +9<br />
| class="left" | [[#Sending|Sending]], [[#Rain of Fire|Rain of Fire]]<br />
|4||4||4||4||4||3||2||1<br />
|}<br />
'''Class Skills (4 + [[SRD:Intelligence|Int]] modifier per level, &times;4 at 1st level)'''<br/><br />
Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Concentration (Con), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (-), Ride (Dex), Search (Int), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), and Use Rope (Dex).<br />
<br />
====Class Features====<br />
<br />
All of the following are class features of the Fire Mage.<br />
<br />
'''Weapon and Armor Proficiency:''' Fire Mages are proficient with all simple weapons, as well as the whip, all martial axes, and all sizes and varieties of scimitar (including falchions). Fire Mages are proficient with light armor but not with shields of any kind.<br />
<br />
'''{{#anc:Fire Resistance}} ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Extraordinary|Ex]]):''' A Fire Mage has a Resistance to Fire equal to twice his level.<br />
<br />
'''''{{#anc:Fire Burst}}'' ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Spell-Like|Sp]]):''' As a standard action, a Fire Mage can emit a burst of flame from his body, striking all creatures and objects within 10' of his position except himself. This burst of flames inflicts 1d6 of fire damage, with an allowed Reflex Save for half (DC 10 + {{1/2}} Level + Charisma Modifier).<br />
<br />
'''''{{#anc:Fire Bolts}}'' ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Spell-Like|Sp]]):''' A fire mage can throw bolts of fire as an attack action. A fire bolt travels out to short range, and inflicts 1d6 of fire damage per level. A fire bolt strikes its target with a ranged touch attack.<br />
<br />
'''{{#anc:Impress Flames}} ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Extraordinary|Ex]]):''' Every time a Fire Mage inflicts Fire damage on any target, whether with his class abilities or another source of fire, he inflicts an amount of extra Fire Damage equal to his class level or his Charisma modifier, whichever is less.<br />
<br />
'''{{#anc:Fire Magic}} ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Extraordinary|Ex]]):''' A Fire Mage is considered to have every spell with the Fire Descriptor on his spell list for the purpose of activating magic items.<br />
<br />
'''''{{#anc:Ignite}}'' ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Spell-Like|Sp]]):''' As a standard action, a 2nd level Fire Mage can cause any creature or object to burst into flame. A creature on fire suffers 1d6 of Fire damage per round (the Mage's Impress Flames ability applies to each round of course), and the creature can attempt to put itself out with a DC 15 Reflex save (see the DMG, p. 303). This ability can be used out to Medium range, and it always hits.<br />
<br />
'''{{#anc:Piercing Flames}} ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Extraordinary|Ex]]):''' From 3rd level on, a Fire Mage's Fire cuts through Fire Resistance, hardness, and Immunity. No more than {{1/2}} of the damage inflicted by his fire damage can be negated by hardness or immunity or resistance to Fire. In addition, the Fire Mage ignores the first 5 points of Fire Resistance that a target has.<br />
<br />
'''{{#anc:Hand of Fire}} ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Supernatural|Su]]):''' A 3rd level Fire Mage can set fire to their own body, causing them to count as armed at all times, even with unarmed attacks. The Fire Mage also causes an extra 1d6 of Fire damage with all melee attacks.<br />
<br />
'''{{#anc:Fire Immunity}} ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Extraordinary|Ex]]):''' A 4th level Fire Mage is immune to Fire.<br />
<br />
'''''{{#anc:Smokeless Flame}}'' ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Spell-Like|Sp]]):''' A 4th level Fire Mage can create fires that produce no heat and do not burn. These fires can be anything from the size of a torch to a bonfire, and produce light accordingly. Each lasts until the next time the sun rises. Smokeless Flame can be created anywhere within Medium range.<br />
<br />
'''''{{#anc:Fireballs}}'' ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Spell-Like|Sp]]):''' A 5th level Fire Mage can hurl explosive fire anywhere within Long Range as a Full Round Action. This Fire explodes into a 20' radius burst and inflicts 1d6 of Fire Damage per level. All creatures within the area are entitled to a Reflex save to halve damage (DC 10 + {{1/2}} Level + Charisma Modifier).<br />
<br />
'''''{{#anc:Mindfire}}'' ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Spell-Like|Sp]]):''' A 6th level Fire Mage can start a Fire in a creature's mind, duplicating the effects of ''[[SRD:Rage|rage]]'' or ''[[SRD:Confusion|confusion]]'' for a number of minutes equal to his Level. The victim must be within Medium Range, and is entitled to a Will Save to negate this effect (DC 10 + {{1/2}} Level + Charisma Modifier). This is a Mind influencing Compulsion effect.<br />
<br />
'''''{{#anc:Visions of Flame}}'' ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Spell-Like|Sp]]):''' A 7th level Fire Mage can ''[[SRD:Contact Other Plane|contact other plane]]'' to communicate with the denizens of the Elemental Plane of Fire. A Fire Mage is in no danger of becoming insane or damaged by this experience.<br />
<br />
'''''{{#anc:Soul of Cinders}}'' ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Spell-Like|Sp]]):''' An 8th level Fire Mage has burnt his soul to ash, and is no longer susceptible to Energy Drain or Fear.<br />
<br />
'''''{{#anc:Sculpt Flames}}'' ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Spell-Like|Sp]]):''' A 9th level Fire Mage can create delicate shapes and walls made of fire. The Fire is fully shapeable, but cannot pass through more than 2 squares per level. Any creature passing through a square with fire in it suffers 1d6 of fire damage per level. A creature which is in a square that is being filled with fire is entitled to a Reflex Save (DC 10 + {{1/2}} Level + Charisma Modifier) to move to the nearest non-flaming square as an immediate action. These fires persist for 1 round per level. Alternately, the Fire Mage can replicate a ''[[SRD:Wall of Fire|wall of fire]]'' which persists for 1 minute per level.<br />
<br />
'''''{{#anc:Conflagration}}'' ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Spell-Like|Sp]]):''' At 10th level, a Fire Mage can surround himself with a nimbus of flames that extends for 10' in all directions from his person. All other targets in this area suffer a d10 of Fire Damage per level, but are entitled to a Reflex Save (DC 10 + {{1/2}} Level + Charisma Modifier). In addition, a Fire Mage can cast ''[[SRD:Fire Shield|fire shield]]'' at will (Hot Shield only).<br />
<br />
'''''{{#anc:Beacon}}'' ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Spell-Like|Sp]]):''' An 11th level Fire Mage can create a magically permanent bonfire as a standard action. He always knows exactly where each Beacon he has created is and will know if it is put out by any means.<br />
<br />
'''''{{#anc:Firewalk}}'' ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Spell-Like|Sp]]):''' At 11th level a Fire Mage can walk into any fire large enough to fit his person and appear in any other fire that is likewise of sufficient size anywhere on any plane of existence. The Fire Mage must know where the target fire is. The Fire Mage can take any number of willing creatures or carried objects that are also able to fit in both flames.<br />
<br />
'''''{{#anc:Bonds of Fire}}'' ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Spell-Like|Sp]]):''' A 12th level Fire Mage can craft solid fire and entrap a victim in it. The bonds will immobilize a creature which fails a Reflex Save (DC 10 + {{1/2}} Level + Charisma Modifier), and will ''[[SRD:Entangle|entangle]]'' the creature unless it succeeds in its save by more than 5. A creature can attempt to escape by taking a Full round action to make a Strength or Escape Artist test with a DC equal to the [[SRD:Use Rope|Use Rope]] Skill Result of the Fire Mage. The victim suffers 20 points of Fire Damage per round, and the bonds of fire last until the victim escapes or the Fire Mage dismisses them.<br />
<br />
'''''{{#anc:Fire Clouds}}'' ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Spell-Like|Sp]]):''' As a Full Round Action, a 13th level Fire Mage can create huge billowing clouds of Fire. The Fire Clouds must be created within Long range, and persist for 3 rounds whether they are still in range or not. The cloud is shapeable, and covers at most 3 10' cubes per Level. Each round, everyone and everything inside the cloud suffers 1d6 of Fire damage per level, but is entitled to a Reflex save for half damage (DC 10 + {{1/2}} Level + Charisma Modifier).<br />
<br />
'''''{{#anc:Searing Light}}'' ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Spell-Like|Sp]]):''' A 14th level Fire Mage can call levels of illumination that are painful and destructive as the unmitigated baleful glare of the sun itself. All darkness within 5 miles is dispelled, and everything is illuminated. All undead suffer 10 points of damage per round. All creatures specifically vulnerable to light suffer 10 damage per round (thus, vampires suffer 20 damage per round). All creatures are [[SRD:Dazzled|Dazzled]]. Creatures must pass a Fortitude save (DC 10 + {{1/2}} Level + Charisma Modifier) every minute or become [[SRD:Blinded|blind]] for the remainder of the effect. Creatures that are blinded when the effect ends are entitled to another Fortitude save to get their vision back, but if they fail this save the blinding is permanent. This effect lasts until the Fire Mage dismisses it or he is incapacitated.<br />
<br />
'''''{{#anc:Ray of Light}}'' ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Spell-Like|Sp]]):''' As an attack action, a 14th level Fire Mage can fire a ray of Light at any target within Short Range. It inflicts 1d6 of Light Damage per level if it hits with a Ranged Touch Attack. Undead take 10 extra damage. Creatures specifically vulnerable to Light suffer an additional 10 damage.<br />
<br />
'''''{{#anc:Sending}}'' ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Spell-Like|Sp]]):''' A 15th level Fire Mage can send a message, as the ''[[SRD:Sending|sending]]'' spell to any creature on any plane of existence with a standard action and receive a reply even if they are on different planes of existence.<br />
<br />
'''''{{#anc:Rain of Fire}}'' ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Spell-Like|Sp]]):''' At 15th level, the Fire Mage can open the skies and dump raw inferno upon all who would oppose him. The fires inflict 1d6 of Fire Damage per level, and victims are permitted a Reflex save (DC 10 + {{1/2}} level + Charisma Modifier). The Fire Mage chooses which squares are struck with fire, and the only limits to how many squares can burn is how many squares the Fire Mage can see. There are no range limits to this power save line of sight.<br />
<br />
===External Links===<br />
* [http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?p=40214 Source]<br />
<br />
<br />
----<br />
{{DnD Base Classes Breadcrumb}}<br />
[[Category:DnD]]<br />
[[Category:3.5e]]<br />
[[Category:User]]<br />
[[Category:Class]]<br />
[[Category:Base Class]]<br />
[[Category:Spontaneous Spellcasting]]<br />
[[Category:Tome]]</div>Genowhirlhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Fire_Mage_(3.5e_Class)&diff=488962Fire Mage (3.5e Class)2010-09-09T07:07:58Z<p>Genowhirl: Undo revision 488960 by 129.15.131.137 (talk)</p>
<hr />
<div>{{stub|Missing 5 levels, epic, and much information found in the preload.}}<br />
{{DnD Base Class Infobox<br />
|img=Pyromancer.jpg<br />
|imgloc=top<br />
|imgsize=300px<br />
|imgcaption="If you can't take the heat..."<br />
|rating_power=5<br />
|raters_power=1<br />
|rating_wording=5<br />
|raters_wording=1<br />
|rating_formatting=<br />
|raters_formatting=<br />
|rating_flavor=<br />
|raters_flavor=<br />
|authors=[[User:Frank and K|Frank and K]]<br />
|datecreated=2007<br />
|status=Complete<br />
|editing=Spelling and grammar only<br />
|type=Spontaneous Spellcasting<br />
|desc=A Fire Mage is a guy who likes fire a lot, and also doesn't completely suck.<br />
}}<br />
<br />
==Fire Mage==<br />
{{quote|Yes, fire ''is'' cool.}}<br />
<br />
A Fire Mage is someone who burns their own soul out to burn the bodies of others. Tactically, they shine against groups of enemies, because fires spread across the battlefield like a plague.<br />
<br />
===Making a Fire Mage===<br />
<br />
'''Alignment:''' Fire is a destructive force, and a lot of Fire Mages are Chaotic. But they don't have to be.<br />
<br />
'''Races:''' Fire Mages appear in all races, though significant portions of many races live in areas where being a Fire Mage is illegal.<br />
<br />
'''Starting Gold:''' 6d6&times;10 gp (210 gp).<br />
<br />
'''[[SRD:Race Descriptions#Starting Age|Starting Age]]:''' As [[SRD:Rogue|Rogue]].<br />
<br />
{| class="{{d20}}"<br />
|+<br />
<div>{{#anc:Table: The Fire Mage}}</div><br />
Hit Die: d8<br />
|-<br />
! rowspan="2" | Level<br />
! rowspan="2" | [[BAB|Base<br/>Attack Bonus]]<br />
! colspan="3" | [[SRD:Saving Throw|Saving Throw]]s<br />
! rowspan="2" | Special<br />
! colspan="9" | [[#Spells|Fire Spells per Day]]<br />
|-<br />
! [[SRD:Saving Throw#Fortitude|Fort]] || [[SRD:Saving Throw#Reflex|Ref]] || [[SRD:Saving Throw#Will|Will]]<br />
! 0 || 1<sup>st</sup> || 2<sup>nd</sup> || 3<sup>rd</sup> || 4<sup>th</sup> || 5<sup>th</sup> || 6<sup>th</sup> || 7<sup>th</sup> <br />
<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|1st|| class="left" | +0 || +2 || +2 || +2 <br />
| class="left" | [[#Fire Resistance|Fire Resistance]], [[#Fire Burst|Fire Burst]], [[#Fire Bolts|Fire Bolts]], [[#Impress Flames|Impress Flames]], [[#Fire Magic|Fire Magic]] <br />
|2||1||—||—||—||—||—||-<br />
<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|2nd|| class="left" | +1 || +3 || +3 || +3<br />
| class="left" | [[#Ignite|Ignite]]<br />
|2||2||—||—||—||—||—||-<br />
<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|3rd|| class="left" | +2 || +3 || +3 || +3<br />
| class="left" | [[#Piercing Flames|Piercing Flames]], [[#Hand of Fire|Hand of Fire]]<br />
|3||2||1||—||—||—||—||-<br />
<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|4th||class="left" | +3 || +4 || +4 || +4<br />
| class="left" | [[#Fire Immunity|Fire Immunity]], [[#Smokeless Flame|Smokeless Flame]]<br />
|3||2||1||1||—||—||—||-<br />
<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|5th||class="left" | +3 || +4 || +4 || +4<br />
| class="left" | [[#Fireballs|Fireballs]]<br />
|4||3||2||1||—||—||—||-<br />
<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|6th||class="left" | +4 || +5 || +5 || +5<br />
| class="left" | [[#Mindfire|Mindfire]]<br />
|4||3||2||2||1||—||—||-<br />
<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|7th||class="left" | +5 || +5 || +5 || +5<br />
| class="left" | [[#Visions of Flame|Visions of Flame]]<br />
|4||4||2||2||1||—||—||-<br />
<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|8th||class="left" | +6/+1 || +6 || +6 || +6<br />
| class="left" | [[#Soul of Cinders|Soul of Cinders]]<br />
|4||4||3||2||2||—||—||-<br />
<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|9th||class="left" | +6/+1 || +6 || +6 || +6<br />
| class="left" | [[#Sculpt Flames|Sculpt Flames]]<br />
|4||4||3||3||2||1||—||-<br />
<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|10th||class="left" | +7/+2 || +7 || +7 || +7<br />
| class="left" | [[#Conflagration|Conflagration]]<br />
|4||4||4||3||2||1||—||-<br />
<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|11th||class="left" | +8/+3 || +7 || +7 || +7<br />
| class="left" | [[#Beacon|Beacon]], [[#Firewalk|Firewalk]]<br />
|4||4||4||4||3||2||—||-<br />
<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|12th||class="left" | +9/+4 || +8 || +8 || +8<br />
| class="left" | [[#Bonds of Fire|Bonds of Fire]]<br />
|4||4||4||4||3||2||1||-<br />
<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|13th||class="left" | +9/+4 || +8 || +8 || +8<br />
| class="left" | [[#Fire Clouds|Fire Clouds]]<br />
|4||4||4||4||4||2||1||-<br />
<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|14th||class="left" | +10/+5 || +9 || +9 || +9<br />
| class="left" | [[#Searing Light|Searing Light]], [[#Ray of Light|Ray of Light]]<br />
|4||4||4||4||4||3||1||-<br />
<br />
|- class="{{Odd-Even|{{#var:odd}}}}"<br />
|15th||class="left" | +11/+6/+6 || +9 || +9 || +9<br />
| class="left" | [[#Sending|Sending]], [[#Rain of Fire|Rain of Fire]]<br />
|4||4||4||4||4||3||2||1<br />
|}<br />
'''Class Skills (4 + [[SRD:Intelligence|Int]] modifier per level, &times;4 at 1st level)'''<br/><br />
Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Concentration (Con), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (-), Ride (Dex), Search (Int), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), and Use Rope (Dex).<br />
<br />
====Class Features====<br />
<br />
All of the following are class features of the Fire Mage.<br />
<br />
'''Weapon and Armor Proficiency:''' Fire Mages are proficient with all simple weapons, as well as the whip, all martial axes, and all sizes and varieties of scimitar (including falchions). Fire Mages are proficient with light armor but not with shields of any kind.<br />
<br />
'''{{#anc:Fire Resistance}} ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Extraordinary|Ex]]):''' A Fire Mage has a Resistance to Fire equal to twice his level.<br />
<br />
'''''{{#anc:Fire Burst}}'' ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Spell-Like|Sp]]):''' As a standard action, a Fire Mage can emit a burst of flame from his body, striking all creatures and objects within 10' of his position except himself. This burst of flames inflicts 1d6 of fire damage, with an allowed Reflex Save for half (DC 10 + {{1/2}} Level + Charisma Modifier).<br />
<br />
'''''{{#anc:Fire Bolts}}'' ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Spell-Like|Sp]]):''' A fire mage can throw bolts of fire as an attack action. A fire bolt travels out to short range, and inflicts 1d6 of fire damage per level. A fire bolt strikes its target with a ranged touch attack.<br />
<br />
'''{{#anc:Impress Flames}} ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Extraordinary|Ex]]):''' Every time a Fire Mage inflicts Fire damage on any target, whether with his class abilities or another source of fire, he inflicts an amount of extra Fire Damage equal to his class level or his Charisma modifier, whichever is less.<br />
<br />
'''{{#anc:Fire Magic}} ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Extraordinary|Ex]]):''' A Fire Mage is considered to have every spell with the Fire Descriptor on his spell list for the purpose of activating magic items.<br />
<br />
'''''{{#anc:Ignite}}'' ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Spell-Like|Sp]]):''' As a standard action, a 2nd level Fire Mage can cause any creature or object to burst into flame. A creature on fire suffers 1d6 of Fire damage per round (the Mage's Impress Flames ability applies to each round of course), and the creature can attempt to put itself out with a DC 15 Reflex save (see the DMG, p. 303). This ability can be used out to Medium range, and it always hits.<br />
<br />
'''{{#anc:Piercing Flames}} ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Extraordinary|Ex]]):''' From 3rd level on, a Fire Mage's Fire cuts through Fire Resistance, hardness, and Immunity. No more than {{1/2}} of the damage inflicted by his fire damage can be negated by hardness or immunity or resistance to Fire. In addition, the Fire Mage ignores the first 5 points of Fire Resistance that a target has.<br />
<br />
'''{{#anc:Hand of Fire}} ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Supernatural|Su]]):''' A 3rd level Fire Mage can set fire to their own body, causing them to count as armed at all times, even with unarmed attacks. The Fire Mage also causes an extra 1d6 of Fire damage with all melee attacks.<br />
<br />
'''{{#anc:Fire Immunity}} ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Extraordinary|Ex]]):''' A 4th level Fire Mage is immune to Fire.<br />
<br />
'''''{{#anc:Smokeless Flame}}'' ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Spell-Like|Sp]]):''' A 4th level Fire Mage can create fires that produce no heat and do not burn. These fires can be anything from the size of a torch to a bonfire, and produce light accordingly. Each lasts until the next time the sun rises. Smokeless Flame can be created anywhere within Medium range.<br />
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'''''{{#anc:Fireballs}}'' ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Spell-Like|Sp]]):''' A 5th level Fire Mage can hurl explosive fire anywhere within Long Range as a Full Round Action. This Fire explodes into a 20' radius burst and inflicts 1d6 of Fire Damage per level. All creatures within the area are entitled to a Reflex save to halve damage (DC 10 + {{1/2}} Level + Charisma Modifier).<br />
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'''''{{#anc:Mindfire}}'' ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Spell-Like|Sp]]):''' A 6th level Fire Mage can start a Fire in a creature's mind, duplicating the effects of ''[[SRD:Rage|rage]]'' or ''[[SRD:Confusion|confusion]]'' for a number of minutes equal to his Level. The victim must be within Medium Range, and is entitled to a Will Save to negate this effect (DC 10 + {{1/2}} Level + Charisma Modifier). This is a Mind influencing Compulsion effect.<br />
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'''''{{#anc:Visions of Flame}}'' ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Spell-Like|Sp]]):''' A 7th level Fire Mage can ''[[SRD:Contact Other Plane|contact other plane]]'' to communicate with the denizens of the Elemental Plane of Fire. A Fire Mage is in no danger of becoming insane or damaged by this experience.<br />
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'''''{{#anc:Soul of Cinders}}'' ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Spell-Like|Sp]]):''' An 8th level Fire Mage has burnt his soul to ash, and is no longer susceptible to Energy Drain or Fear.<br />
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'''''{{#anc:Sculpt Flames}}'' ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Spell-Like|Sp]]):''' A 9th level Fire Mage can create delicate shapes and walls made of fire. The Fire is fully shapeable, but cannot pass through more than 2 squares per level. Any creature passing through a square with fire in it suffers 1d6 of fire damage per level. A creature which is in a square that is being filled with fire is entitled to a Reflex Save (DC 10 + {{1/2}} Level + Charisma Modifier) to move to the nearest non-flaming square as an immediate action. These fires persist for 1 round per level. Alternately, the Fire Mage can replicate a ''[[SRD:Wall of Fire|wall of fire]]'' which persists for 1 minute per level.<br />
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'''''{{#anc:Conflagration}}'' ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Spell-Like|Sp]]):''' At 10th level, a Fire Mage can surround himself with a nimbus of flames that extends for 10' in all directions from his person. All other targets in this area suffer a d10 of Fire Damage per level, but are entitled to a Reflex Save (DC 10 + {{1/2}} Level + Charisma Modifier). In addition, a Fire Mage can cast ''[[SRD:Fire Shield|fire shield]]'' at will (Hot Shield only).<br />
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'''''{{#anc:Beacon}}'' ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Spell-Like|Sp]]):''' An 11th level Fire Mage can create a magically permanent bonfire as a standard action. He always knows exactly where each Beacon he has created is and will know if it is put out by any means.<br />
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'''''{{#anc:Firewalk}}'' ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Spell-Like|Sp]]):''' At 11th level a Fire Mage can walk into any fire large enough to fit his person and appear in any other fire that is likewise of sufficient size anywhere on any plane of existence. The Fire Mage must know where the target fire is. The Fire Mage can take any number of willing creatures or carried objects that are also able to fit in both flames.<br />
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'''''{{#anc:Bonds of Fire}}'' ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Spell-Like|Sp]]):''' A 12th level Fire Mage can craft solid fire and entrap a victim in it. The bonds will immobilize a creature which fails a Reflex Save (DC 10 + {{1/2}} Level + Charisma Modifier), and will ''[[SRD:Entangle|entangle]]'' the creature unless it succeeds in its save by more than 5. A creature can attempt to escape by taking a Full round action to make a Strength or Escape Artist test with a DC equal to the [[SRD:Use Rope|Use Rope]] Skill Result of the Fire Mage. The victim suffers 20 points of Fire Damage per round, and the bonds of fire last until the victim escapes or the Fire Mage dismisses them.<br />
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'''''{{#anc:Fire Clouds}}'' ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Spell-Like|Sp]]):''' As a Full Round Action, a 13th level Fire Mage can create huge billowing clouds of Fire. The Fire Clouds must be created within Long range, and persist for 3 rounds whether they are still in range or not. The cloud is shapeable, and covers at most 3 10' cubes per Level. Each round, everyone and everything inside the cloud suffers 1d6 of Fire damage per level, but is entitled to a Reflex save for half damage (DC 10 + {{1/2}} Level + Charisma Modifier).<br />
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'''''{{#anc:Searing Light}}'' ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Spell-Like|Sp]]):''' A 14th level Fire Mage can call levels of illumination that are painful and destructive as the unmitigated baleful glare of the sun itself. All darkness within 5 miles is dispelled, and everything is illuminated. All undead suffer 10 points of damage per round. All creatures specifically vulnerable to light suffer 10 damage per round (thus, vampires suffer 20 damage per round). All creatures are [[SRD:Dazzled|Dazzled]]. Creatures must pass a Fortitude save (DC 10 + {{1/2}} Level + Charisma Modifier) every minute or become [[SRD:Blinded|blind]] for the remainder of the effect. Creatures that are blinded when the effect ends are entitled to another Fortitude save to get their vision back, but if they fail this save the blinding is permanent. This effect lasts until the Fire Mage dismisses it or he is incapacitated.<br />
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'''''{{#anc:Ray of Light}}'' ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Spell-Like|Sp]]):''' As an attack action, a 14th level Fire Mage can fire a ray of Light at any target within Short Range. It inflicts 1d6 of Light Damage per level if it hits with a Ranged Touch Attack. Undead take 10 extra damage. Creatures specifically vulnerable to Light suffer an additional 10 damage.<br />
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'''''{{#anc:Sending}}'' ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Spell-Like|Sp]]):''' A 15th level Fire Mage can send a message, as the ''[[SRD:Sending|sending]]'' spell to any creature on any plane of existence with a standard action and receive a reply even if they are on different planes of existence.<br />
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'''''{{#anc:Rain of Fire}}'' ([[SRD:Special Abilities Overview#Spell-Like|Sp]]):''' At 15th level, the Fire Mage can open the skies and dump raw inferno upon all who would oppose him. The fires inflict 1d6 of Fire Damage per level, and victims are permitted a Reflex save (DC 10 + {{1/2}} level + Charisma Modifier). The Fire Mage chooses which squares are struck with fire, and the only limits to how many squares can burn is how many squares the Fire Mage can see. There are no range limits to this power save line of sight.<br />
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===External Links===<br />
* [http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?p=40214 Source]<br />
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----<br />
{{DnD Base Classes Breadcrumb}}<br />
[[Category:DnD]]<br />
[[Category:3.5e]]<br />
[[Category:User]]<br />
[[Category:Class]]<br />
[[Category:Base Class]]<br />
[[Category:Spontaneous Spellcasting]]<br />
[[Category:Tome]]</div>Genowhirlhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Samurai,_Races_of_War_(3.5e_Class)&diff=488881Talk:Samurai, Races of War (3.5e Class)2010-09-08T16:35:33Z<p>Genowhirl: </p>
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<div>== Balance Issues ==<br />
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I dislike that parry magic and reflect magic can be used infinitely to render the samurai immune to targeted magic. Attack rolls will always be higher than spell DCs, thus they will never miss the AC(baring the natural '1' rule). Also, ignoring AC bonuses from spells and spell-like abilities is cumbersome mid-combat, perhaps they should get a bonus to hit based on the number of buffs on the target, rather than recalculating the characters AC every time they are going to get hit. Piercing force effects is an epic ability, i think getting it at level 10 with no failure is over powered. Kiai! is broken, people running around with x4 crit weapons should not have the ability to multiply their damage by 4 at will. lower the ammount of times they can do it, or give it the chance to fail, and restrict it to their Ancestral Weaponry, at least. To clarify, Iaijutsu Focus allows someone to use their next round's swift action to perform Dex+1 attacks, against as many or as few targets as the samurai likes, Meaning a samurai with a +4 dex gets 5 EXTRA attacks per round, at his highest BAB? If so, that is far and above broken. I am not putting the balance template on this because the authors seem not not want anyone to edit it, but as far as typical D&D fighter classes, this is better than all of them, hands down. --[[User:Ganre|Ganre]] 01:43, 17 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:I agree that the Samurai can be difficult to run games for, but I've been able to work around it by making a gentleman's agreement with the player about their ancestral weapon (I'll allow a x3 crit modifier, for example) and giving them plenty of baddies to carve up before they reach their real objective (I like Frank and K stuff because I can always ask a player to tone it down without offending the group, but people get ticked over someone getting a free power boost). However, I think you misunderstand a few points. Force effects are a caster's "I win" button against non-casters. [[SRD:Wall of Force]] is immune to all mundane damage and the only way to hurt it or bypass it is with spells. I realize this may sound redundant, but only casters have spells; that means that only other casters are equipped to deal with Force effect. [[SRD:Forcecage]] is an even more disrespectful kick in the testicles becase you can seal someone it in...and they don't get a saving throw! If they don't have some fairly advanced spells, they can't get out. So giving a melee-based class whose common depiction has them slicing through ''everything'' an ability to carve through Force Effects? That's not bad. Heck, it's not like the ability will automatically let them kill something; it's just increasing the amount of substances they can damage. In this case, the substance is Iwinium for casters, and I therefore approve. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 09:27, 19 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::That is exactly why it's a team based game, the fighter should not be doing everything. He can get a dispelling weapon to try and deal with the cage, but he's not going to 100% success rate, now if he has a decent wizard/cleric arround, well now, totally different story, he is out of the cage in a single round. --[[User:Ganre|Ganre]] 15:10, 19 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::: "Like a wall of force spell, a forcecage resists dispel magic, but it is vulnerable to a disintegrate spell, and it can be destroyed by a sphere of annihilation or a rod of cancellation." Also yes it a team game but everyone should be able to overcome their share of challenge. We never know when the other players at the table might want to play class outside the base roles. A class for this reason shouldn't be balance based upon a team. What happen if you got no cleric but 2 barbarian... or you are only 3 people in the group. --[[User:Lord Dhazriel|Lord Dhazriel]] 15:25, 19 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::::Also, casters make the magic items. They get the invincible Force effects. They can, if they so choose, completely screw over something with one action (At early levels they can use something like Color Spray to do this. At higher levels, they can do things like Forcecage and Shapechange). The D&D system relies upon casters to make the hallmarks, so I don't have a problem with that. I do, however, have a problem with people gladly swallowing a wizard throwing down a Cloudkill spell, but balking at a non-caster-type doing something visually spectacular--like shattering a Force effect, or being able to reliably cut something in half. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 15:31, 19 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
:::::I can't think of anything wrong with a 20 level core class mimicking a power granted by an epic prestige class by 10th level, really. At least he's not getting a +5 ''ghost touch vorpal'' weapon for 100 gold. Or ignoring DR and hardness, or getting attack of opportunity ''dispel magic'', or anything like that. ...Oh wait. [[User:Atypicaloracle|Atypicaloracle]] 03:46, 2 June 2010 (UTC)<br />
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== Rating ==<br />
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'''Power - 4.5/5''' I give this class a 4.5 out of 5 because, while I can see that the grand majority of the abilities this class has are overall balanced, the ability to automatically confirm criticals is a little much to chew, even considering Frank & K's viewpoint on classes. &rarr; [[User:Rithaniel|<span style=color:Gray; -moz-border-radius-topleft:25px; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px">Rith</span>]]<sup> [[User talk:Rithaniel|<span style=color:black; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px; -moz-border-radius-topleft:20px">(talk)</span>]]</sup> 03:01, 26 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
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'''Wording - 4.9/5''' I give this class a 4.9 out of 5 because there is an extra word in the "Iaijutsu Focus" description that is a little confusing. &rarr; [[User:Rithaniel|<span style=color:Gray; -moz-border-radius-topleft:25px; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px">Rith</span>]]<sup> [[User talk:Rithaniel|<span style=color:black; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px; -moz-border-radius-topleft:20px">(talk)</span>]]</sup> 03:01, 26 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
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'''[[Help:Standards and Formatting (DnD Guideline)|Formatting]] - 2.5/5''' I give this class a 2.5 out of 5 because massive portions of the preload are missing, and, while interwiki linking is effectively comprehensive, there are several malformed links on the page. &rarr; [[User:Rithaniel|<span style=color:Gray; -moz-border-radius-topleft:25px; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px">Rith</span>]]<sup> [[User talk:Rithaniel|<span style=color:black; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px; -moz-border-radius-topleft:20px">(talk)</span>]]</sup> 03:01, 26 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
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'''Flavor - 5/5''' I give this class a 5 out of 5 because this class is, truly, an excellent example of what a Samurai should be. &rarr; [[User:Rithaniel|<span style=color:Gray; -moz-border-radius-topleft:25px; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px">Rith</span>]]<sup> [[User talk:Rithaniel|<span style=color:black; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px; -moz-border-radius-topleft:20px">(talk)</span>]]</sup> 03:01, 26 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
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Okay, I think that you got to a really good start, and then nose dived. What kind of sixth level person should be able to bypass ANY DR? But even then, you let your level one or two have a ghost touch weapon? Granted, not many L2's deal with ghosts, but still, if we're going to talk about kicking anyone in the balls, it should be the other martial classes. You just kind of went, oh well I get that and that and that too, just like you do. Plus, I could kick your ass with my amazing weapon. -Drgonlovr2<br />
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:Note that this is supposed to be used with the other Frank and K classes. The fighter, barbarian, and knight are also pretty awesome, and so are not being "kicked in the balls". They're each different, and useful in a different way. The samurai and barbarian are both high damage, with the samurai having a few anti-magic abilities and the barbarian just being... well, he's a barbarian. And the fighter is versatile, while the knight tanks people like crazy. [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] 20:07, 26 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::Why does everyone go, "It can bypass DR before level 10! IT'S TOO POWERFUL!"? It's not like he does extra damage than he does to something which has no DR. DR serves to really screw melee-combat types, since its magical equivalent (energy/spell resistance) can be bypassed by having a decent variety of spells (some spells don't allow spell resistance). However, magic weapons are expensive, even if you're buying a point or two below your main weapon. Oh, and that's before DR/-. Sure, the entire party can make a gentleman's agreement to buy a silver, cold iron, and adamantine weapon between them...but that's still pretty cheap and breaks some of the immersion. Personally, I'd rather have a Samurai/Monk in the party (or play one) and cheer when DR 15 is ignored, than to *have* to think about playing the DR rules so the melee section of the party can continue to contribute.--[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 08:59, 29 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
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== Picture ==<br />
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Thanks a lot for all the help, Jota. I was just wondering if it would be possible to find a picture of a Samurai-like thing with a scythe or other 4x crit weapon instead of that greatsword...tall order, I know, but I think it would make the page better. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 22:22, 18 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
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[[Image:Oni samurai by timatika.jpg|420px|right|thumb]]<br />
:I was planning on using this one for the [[Demon Samurai (DnD Prestige Class)]], but if you want I could juggle things a bit. I don't have a huge investment in it either way, other than that this one is a bit fiendish. As for other options, scythes are pretty easy; scythes plus samurai armor is a little harder. I'll see if I can find anything else. -- [[User:Jota|Jota]] 22:39, 18 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::That one definitely makes a better demon samurai -- I mean, it's even in the name! Wonderful work with the pictures, by the way. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 02:21, 19 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
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== Rating == <br />
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'''Power - <<<4.5>>>/5''' I give this class a <<<4.5>>> out of 5 because <<<This class is decently balanced, and very obviously well thought out and edited. Very well done.>>> --[[User:76.26.226.216|76.26.226.216]] 14:34, 14 December 2009 (MST)<br />
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'''Wording - <<<4>>>/5''' I give this class a <<<4>>> out of 5 because <<<Only one spelling error i saw.>>> --[[User:76.26.226.216|76.26.226.216]] 14:34, 14 December 2009 (MST)<br />
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'''[[Help:Standards and Formatting (DnD Guideline)|Formatting]] - <<<5>>>/5''' I give this class a <<<5>>> out of 5 because <<<No errors i saw.>>> --[[User:76.26.226.216|76.26.226.216]] 14:34, 14 December 2009 (MST)<br />
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'''Flavor - <<<5>>>/5''' I give this class a <<<5>>> out of 5 because <<<Oh just very cool, very very cool, haha.>>> --[[User:76.26.226.216|76.26.226.216]] 14:34, 14 December 2009 (MST)<br />
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== Rating == <br />
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'''Power - 2.5/5''' I give this class a 2.5 out of 5 because, while I usually enjoy and am in favor of Frank and K's methods of determining class and ability strengths, I find that the massive amount of exploitation available for critical hits is simply too much. Sure, Undead and other creatures might be able to put a wrench in the gears, but there's not always those kinds of creatures around. Force cutting, Magic cutting, head cutting, armor cutting... it has alot of features that I feel I can accommodate, even if a little uncomfortably. However, this seems a little much. The amount of uses in intermediate levels skyrockets, and in the higher levels, it gains an almost indefinite range, considering how many enemies the Samurai kills. Killing off an entire village of people could be done and grant easily more than 50 uses of the Kiai! ability, per day, it seems. Even more discouraging, the Samurai could simply use Kiai! to kill something, and gain another use. I understand that Spell-casters constantly overshadow Warrior classes, but the Tome Fighter and Tome Monk are great compensations to that, whereas this Tome Samurai... it seems to be more of an extremely exploitable class. --[[User:Jwguy|Jwguy]] 01:21, 9 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
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'''Wording - 5/5''' Admittedly, despite my statement above, I find that the Wording and Formatting are still as wonderful as ever. Keep up the good work! --[[User:Jwguy|Jwguy]] 01:21, 9 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
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'''[[Help:Standards and Formatting (DnD Guideline)|Formatting]] - 5/5''' My reasons for this are as they are above. --[[User:Jwguy|Jwguy]] 01:21, 9 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
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'''Flavor - 3.5/5''' While my issues with the class's seeming overpowered status remain, I find that the improvements made on the class are rather agreeable, overall, excluding the Kiai! ability. It seems to provide a staple class for warriors against the threats of mages, without actually having to be a spellblade, which is something I always encourage. --[[User:Jwguy|Jwguy]] 01:21, 9 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
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== Rating == <br />
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'''Power - 2/5''' I give this class a 2 out of 5 because if any DM in his or her right mind would let me play one, I would pick this over any other melee-focused warrior class around. Cleaving through spells, reflexively swatting aside any inconvenient spell headed my way, getting powerful magical weapons basically for free, and easily exploiting my Kiai! ability sounds like a gas. Even better if I happen to have a few other adventurers following me around for some reason, and one of them decided to cast buffing spells on me. --[[User:Atypicaloracle|Atypicaloracle]] 03:57, 2 June 2010 (UTC)<br />
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:For starters, I admit the Samurai wins melee combat when he has his uses of Kiai. It hasn't been a problem for me in my games, because whoever's playing a samurai generally wants to do it for the mook-slaying. I can keep them happy by throwing some mooks at them for them to hack down and sometimes Kiai. Plus, this is meant to be used with other melee classes from the same sourcebook, like a [[Monk, Tome (3.5e Class)|Monk]] or a [[Barbarian, Tome (3.5e Class)|Barbarian]] who will have their own interesting ways to contribute and awesome things to do. This is all based on some variant rules to patch some problems with the D&D 3.x system, and one of the things this would did was make some melee classes that didn't have to be part of an iconic party and more or less ran themselves. Because not every group wants to have a fighter, a wizard, a cleric, and a rogue running around, and not everyone wants to have to play a build, like I'd have to do if I played an SRD fighter and wanted to, you know, stay alive until we get to the next roleplaying bit. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 16:18, 2 June 2010 (UTC)<br />
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'''Wording - 4/5''' The wording is clear enough, although easy exploits abound. I can't conclusively prove these exploits are the result of the wording or deliberate intent on the creator's behalf. --[[User:Atypicaloracle|Atypicaloracle]] 03:57, 2 June 2010 (UTC)<br />
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'''[[Help:Standards and Formatting (DnD Guideline)|Formatting]] - 4/5''' It's dense, and there's more class powers on this page than I properly know how to approach, but the parts seem to be largely in the right places. --[[User:Atypicaloracle|Atypicaloracle]] 03:57, 2 June 2010 (UTC)<br />
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:There's something every level because the guys who wrote this realized 1) Getting something new to look forward to each level apart from a slight increase in your numbers is pretty awesome 2) Casters get new class powers each level. You know, those interesting abilities and effects called 'spells'? That's actually a pretty good way to do it (see point 1) and should have been expanded in the first place --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 16:18, 2 June 2010 (UTC)<br />
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'''Flavor - 2/5''' I firmly believe that within the narrow confines of the D&D alignment system, a samurai is a Lawful character: devoted to a strictly regimented caste system, swearing binding vows of fealty to a member of a ruling class, and devoting themselves to a regimented study of martial practice. They don't have to be good, or evil for that matter, but they are essentially lawful, being for all intents and purposes the Japanese equivalent of a chivalric knight. That aside, the introduction to the class makes no attempt to present the character in an "in-universe" style - by the phrase "beat the crap out of" I was already wincing and found it impossible to stop. --[[User:Atypicaloracle|Atypicaloracle]] 03:57, 2 June 2010 (UTC)<br />
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:Well, you ''would'' have a point except for two things. First, the D&D alignment system makes no sense and is best treated as a sort of rough guideline at best, especially when it gets to the parts about Law and Chaos. Telling someone they MUST play Lawful because you can't imagine any other way the character could be is honestly sort of insulting to that person's abilities, saying there's no way they could play, for example, a Chaotic samurai well. Second, comparatively few gaming groups use the same universe. Many of the gaming groups do their own thing rather than cleave to some setting or another, shocking as that might sound to the Goodright Roleplayers. So, given the impossibility to pandering to everyone's games, I have no problem with someone just putting up the class's mechanics and letting those and a few notes speak for itself. Given that the class's abilities are a nod to the what the samurai (and other Eastern-style sword-wielding nutcases) do in modern media today and some of the historical figures like Miyamoto Musashi (who, yes, wrote a treatise on 'How I Did It'), and anyone playing a Samurai would probably like a little of that represented in their game, I'd have to say you're being unfair in what you focus on the rating. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 16:18, 2 June 2010 (UTC)<br />
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::Well, here, this seems to be as good a place as any--and the category these are based on is filled with a lot of mess right now (like what appears to be several dozen 4e powers, what's up with that?). Take a gander at these: [[Tome of Necromancy (3.5e Sourcebook)]], [[Tome of Fiends (3.5e Sourcebook)]], [[Dungeonomicon (3.5e Sourcebook)]], [[Races of War (3.5e Sourcebook)]]. You might not agree with what they say, but they'll make you have to think about your assumptions and may make you realize a few more thing. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 16:18, 2 June 2010 (UTC)<br />
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== Rating == <br />
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'''Power - 1/5''' I give this class a 1 out of 5 because the Ancestral Weapon feature with its improvements is grossly overpowered. At first level, for only 100 gp and some meditation the character gains the equivalant of a +2 magic weapon. At 18th level, the character has a Vorpal (+5) +5 Ghost Touch (+1) weapon, that not only acts as a Brilliant Energy Weapon (+4), but does not have the limitations of that quality (eg. no effect on undead or constructs), but also ignores all damage reduction and hardness. Even without considering ignoring damage reduction and hardness (which used to require several Epic Feats), this is the equivalant of a '''+15''' weapon. In addition, some of the feats granted, at least as referenced here, grant abilities beyond the scope of normal characters - blindsense to 60', tremorsense to 120'? No character gains anything resembling this. The character never needs to buy a weapon, magical or otherwise, allowing him to save money for magical armor, buffs, and secondary weapons, and gains an artifact quality weapon by 15th level. The Ancestral Weapon needs to be '''significantly''' reduced in power to bring this class in line with other martial characters - especially when a DM could allow the 1/2 character level +2 automatic critical hits per day to trigger the vorpal power.<br />
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:Not all weapon enhancements are made equal. Ghost Touch equals "You don't automatically lose when you run into an incorporeal undead". Also, Epic rules ''bite'' and prove nothing. One of the big problems the SRD monk is in so much trouble is because all that DR enemies have become DR/You Don't Have it. Once it hits DR 15/anything, it becomes 'Immune to Monks'. All the other martial classes share the problem, what with there being DR/Cold Iron (which is somehow different from normal Iron in a completely unthematic way), DR/Silver, DR/Adamantine, DR/Wood, DR/Stone, and, of course, good old DR/-. Ignoring DR and Hardness translates to, "A workable response to all enemies and most obstacles is 'cut it'.". They don't increase the damage you do, they just keep you from doing -less- damage. Neither does Ghost Touch. They don't actually provide some overwhelming benefit. Now, the vorpal is problematic. I think the authors clarified it was suppose to be on a natural critical rather than the Kiai business, but what with the exodus, no one who knows that bothered clarifying it. Also, amazingly, you may find it interesting to consider this idea: Wealth by level is trap idea and removes immersion and it should be ditched along with XP, which is unnecessary bookkeeping that could be replaced by the DM saying "You level up when I say you do". Really, my character is supposed to budget 25% of his money for a weapon walk around enough small magic items that he looks like a magic christmas tree, thanks to those actually giving more benefit than one big item and about 30% of them will be glowing and, by the SRD, after a while one of them should be sentient. How nice and mercenary. Also serves to make all characters look the same after a while, because after people get the idea that to have a character ''survive'' is pretty fun and to do that, they need the right gear. In any case, this is one class out of a kind of sourcebook that's here on the website. One of a series of four. You may find them interesting reading, even if you don't agree with everything. [[Tome of Necromancy (3.5e Sourcebook)|Tome of Necromancy]], [[Tome of Fiends (3.5e Sourcebook)|Tome of Fiends]], the [[Dungeonomicon (3.5e Sourcebook)|Dungeonomicon]], and the one devoted to martial classes, [[Races of War (3.5e Sourcebook)|Races of War]]. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 10:35, 8 September 2010 (MDT)<br />
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'''Wording - 4/5''' I give this class a 4 out of 5 because it is well worded, with no significant errors. There is some confusion regarding the Whirlwind Attack feature, which suggests it is one feat (Whirlwind Attack) and then grants a similar sounding feat (Whirlwind) - or at least links to it.<br />
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'''[[Help:Standards and Formatting (DnD Guideline)|Formatting]] - 5/5''' I give this class a 5 out of 5 because I didn't se any issues with the formatting.<br />
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'''Flavor - 4/5''' I give this class a 4 out of 5 because it's fairly well flavored and imaginative for a samurai.</div>Genowhirlhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=SRD_Talk:Tarrasque&diff=488324SRD Talk:Tarrasque2010-09-01T16:18:39Z<p>Genowhirl: </p>
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<div>==Most Ridiculous Creature Ever==<br />
Seriously, Ummmm, Ouch. I know these are the official stats, and its not homebrew, and thats makes me more scared. The only way to defeat this thing is to Wish it out of existence, and hope it works. My god, no thanks Mr. DM I'll pass on this encounter. &nbsp;<small><span style="border: 1px solid blue; -moz-border-radius:10px">[[User:Hooper|'''<span style="background-color:White; color:FireBrick; -moz-border-radius-topleft:10px; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:10px"> Hooper </span>''']][[User talk:Hooper|<span style="background-color:red; color:blue; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:10px; -moz-border-radius-topleft:10px">&nbsp;&nbsp;talk&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Hooper|<span style="background-color:red; color:blue">&nbsp;&nbsp;contribs&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]][[Special:Emailuser/Hooper|<span style="background-color:red; color:blue; -moz-border-radius-bottomright:10px; -moz-border-radius-topright:10px">&nbsp;&nbsp;email&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]]</span></small> 18:22, 16 April 2007 (MDT)<br />
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:I could defeat it easier than that. [[SRD: Teleportation Circle (Spell)|Teleportation Circle]] combined with the metamagic feat Sudden Quicken (from the Complete Arcane) and you got yourself a nice, effective way to make sure he gets the hell outta there. Of course, you gotta make sure your group keeps him distracted for one minute and pray you beat his SR when he enters the trap. -- [[User:Flession|Flession]] 19:39, 16 April 2007 (MDT)<br />
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::Crap, I just realized that you can't quicken a spell that has more than a standard action. So much for that idea. Might I recommend the teleport...but on your party ^_^;; -- [[User:Flession|Flession]] 20:25, 16 April 2007 (MDT)<br />
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:::Actually, there are a variety of easy-to-run ways of killing a tarrasque, many of which involve the fly spell and a group of caster that simply pummel it past its regeneration. I'm not going to go into them here, but they are easy to find on the wizard's boards. &ndash;[[User:EldritchNumen|EldritchNumen]] 23:24, 16 April 2007 (MDT)<br />
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::::I would have so much fun fighting one of these damn things. I hope I get to face one someday. -- [[User:Flession|Flession]] 10:17, 3 May 2007 (MDT)<br />
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:::::There are many, many good ways to take these things out. The trick with them is not the danger that it poses to characters, but the danger it poses to someone or something else. This thing is harder to defeat when you are on a ticker. --[[User:Dmilewski|Dmilewski]] 11:43, 3 May 2007 (MDT)<br />
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::::::I had to fight it when it was getting manipulated by an evil druid. One of us was put immobile by a spell and they got swallowed. That was tricky... Very nasty time frame to beat it. We lost, he got resurrected after we gathered his remains from tarrasque poop. Oh and the villain destroyed the city and overran it with plants and stuff. On topic though: this thing is very poorly rated for CR. Great Wyrm reds are a lot easier. --[[User:Aarnott|Aarnott]] 12:05, 3 May 2007 (MDT)<br />
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:::::::Heheh, I bet the Wizard employee who made this had a bad day :( Anywho at least you dont get an annoying DM who decides to zombifie it... Then i'd be even more pissed... You may as well jump off the nearest cliff when this one comes. THeres more chance of surviving and at least your body would remain in tact for burial...<br />
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::::::::We used a ring of three wishes on one a couple years back ''(probably not long after my first note up there)''. First we wished it intelligent, then we wished it good. We used the third wish to better its thoughts and feelings and opinions of the party. &nbsp;<small><span style="border: 1px solid black; -moz-border-radius:10px">[[User:Hooper|'''<span style="background-color:White; color:Black; -moz-border-radius-topleft:10px; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:10px"> Hooper </span>''']][[User talk:Hooper|<span style="background-color:Black; color:white; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:10px; -moz-border-radius-topleft:10px">&nbsp;&nbsp;talk&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Hooper|<span style="background-color:black; color:white">&nbsp;&nbsp;contribs&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]][[Special:Emailuser/Hooper|<span style="background-color:black; color:white; -moz-border-radius-bottomright:10px; -moz-border-radius-topright:10px">&nbsp;&nbsp;email&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]]</span></small> 06:43, 15 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
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::::::::::bag of holding + portable hole. you can take this out at like level 5--[[User:Name Violation|Name Violation]] 06:51, 15 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
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:::::::::::There was a long discussion about that exact same thing on the wizards forum a while back. Although the bag and the hole could work on some, and yes the bag of holding can hold plenty, something still has to fit through the opening of the bag or the hole. &nbsp;<small><span style="border: 1px solid black; -moz-border-radius:10px">[[User:Hooper|'''<span style="background-color:White; color:Black; -moz-border-radius-topleft:10px; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:10px"> Hooper </span>''']][[User talk:Hooper|<span style="background-color:Black; color:white; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:10px; -moz-border-radius-topleft:10px">&nbsp;&nbsp;talk&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Hooper|<span style="background-color:black; color:white">&nbsp;&nbsp;contribs&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]][[Special:Emailuser/Hooper|<span style="background-color:black; color:white; -moz-border-radius-bottomright:10px; -moz-border-radius-topright:10px">&nbsp;&nbsp;email&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>]]</span></small> 14:10, 15 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
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::Sic a Wraith on it. The Tarrasque is immune to ability ''damage'', but not the ability ''drain'' done by some monsters, including the Wraith. It will take approximately 10 hits of the Wraith's Touch Attack to kill the Tarrasque by reducing its maximum Constitution to 0. You could also immerse the Tarrasque in molten lava and then let the lava harden into rock. I don't know if that would kill it, but it would certainly prevent it from doing anything.<br />
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:::Why would you want to kill such a magestic, and overall swell guy? i mean, i would be so disappointed if you killed Terry before Tarrasquemas. Even look at his MM picture. He's smiling, not roaring; and he's even playing tag with his friends!<br />
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::::Completely for the entertainment value, I present...the Squirrasque. http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=36876 --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 10:18, 1 September 2010 (MDT)</div>Genowhirlhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=SRD_Talk:Acrobatic&diff=486267SRD Talk:Acrobatic2010-08-14T22:10:53Z<p>Genowhirl: spam</p>
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<div></div>Genowhirlhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Template:Archives&diff=486220Template:Archives2010-08-14T02:28:26Z<p>Genowhirl: Blanked page to undo spam</p>
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<div></div>Genowhirlhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Template:Forumfooter&diff=484979Template:Forumfooter2010-08-05T14:30:13Z<p>Genowhirl: Big crop of the spam today</p>
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<div></div>Genowhirlhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Dire_Cat_(3.5e_Creature)&diff=484978Dire Cat (3.5e Creature)2010-08-05T14:28:44Z<p>Genowhirl: Blanked the page</p>
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<div></div>Genowhirlhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:The_Same_Game_Test_(DnD_Guideline)&diff=484612Talk:The Same Game Test (DnD Guideline)2010-08-03T17:23:57Z<p>Genowhirl: </p>
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<div>A hallway filled with magical runes that do... what? --[[User:Ghostwheel|Ghostwheel]] 06:39, 11 July 2009 (MDT)<br />
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: Explode, go beep, kill you, etc. --[[User:TK-Squared|TK-Squared]] 14:43, 11 July 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::Think there might be a chance of getting this statted out a little more extensively? (How many shadows makes a horde?) --[[User:Ghostwheel|Ghostwheel]] 07:01, 13 July 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::: Try some ingenuity. Like 12 Shadows make a horde (A CR10 Encounter) --[[User:TK-Squared|TK-Squared]] 11:47, 13 July 2009 (MDT)<br />
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==Appropriate CR==<br />
Okay, here comes Frank's explanation about this, as I've heard it.<br />
*Back in the 3.0 days, the CR chart listed your actual percentage of survival, of a party of four, against a challenge of CR. With CR=party level, the party is supposed to win and expend 40% of their resources in doing so. At a CR 4 higher, their chance of survival is supposed to be 50%. That's "Win and survive at any cost."<br />
*The same section also contained rules on adjusting the party's CR based on party sizes other than 4. Decreasing the party size increase the CR of an encounter by 2. Do it twice, and you're left with one person, who should have, on average, a 50% chance (on average) of beating encounters with a CR equal to his level.<br />
*In the 3.5 DMG, this information was written out in words, without the actual numbers, partly as an effort to make the 3.5 DMG substantially longer than the 3.0. WotC is like that sometimes. The underlying assumptions are still the same, they're just harder to see.<br />
This is the underlying assumption of the Same Game Test. It may not be exactly right, but it has the benefit of being concrete and having few variables. A party of 4 can cover each other. When someone's alone, their strengths and weaknesses show more clearly. Therefore, it's possible to build a specific character and run him through the gauntlet and see if he's posing an credible threat to monsters of his CR. And, well, it has the added bonus of generating more interesting character classes, because they have to develop to keep up with the crazy-ass monsters. [[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 23:44, 23 August 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:So I shouldn't be worried if a class I make kills everything it fights from the Lv. 10 Same Game Test except the Trolls? (The Fire Giant was really a fluke failed Fortitude Save.) --[[User:Suezotiger|Suezotiger]] 02:09, 3 August 2010 (UTC)<br />
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::He's probably a little OP. If you've uploaded the class to the wiki, I can look over it if you post a link, if you want. --[[User:Badger|Badger]] 02:21, 3 August 2010 (UTC)<br />
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:::It's also likely you're not interpreting the test the way it's commonly perceived by those who reference it regularly. I'd be interested in hearing how you beat the horde of shadows. -- [[User:Jota|Jota]] 04:11, 3 August 2010 (UTC)<br />
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::::Passing the same-game test means going about 50/50 for your level, against the variety of challenges. So, yeah, if it can whip everything at it's level, it's probably overpowered. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 17:23, 3 August 2010 (UTC)</div>Genowhirlhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Boatman_of_Styx_(3.5e_Prestige_Class)&diff=484062Talk:Boatman of Styx (3.5e Prestige Class)2010-08-01T02:08:12Z<p>Genowhirl: </p>
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<div>== Comment ==<br />
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I'm not going to rate this class, but, I think it's really cool. I don't see how you'd use it in a adventure not involving The River Styx, but I guess that means I should read The Tome of Fiends. ''';)''' {{Unsigned|CelticHippie|16:09, 14 December 2009 (MST)}}<br />
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== Rating == <br />
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'''Power - 4/5''' I give this class a 4 out of 5 because it is a powerful class but he can be a not powerful class on what the DM says the river styx does do to people, or if he or she has one in they world<br />
'''Wording - 5 /5''' I give this class a 5 out of 5 because it is easy to understand --[[User:Some-call-me-bob|Some-call-me-bob]] 21:11, 29 July 2010 (UTC)<br />
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'''[[Help:Standards and Formatting (DnD Guideline)|Formatting]] - 4/5''' I give this class a out of 5 because the formatting use good but there was room for growth --[[User:Some-call-me-bob|Some-call-me-bob]] 21:11, 29 July 2010 (UTC)<br />
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'''Flavor - 5/5''' I give this class a 5 out of 5 because you don't class like this too much it is refreshing to see something like this --[[User:Some-call-me-bob|Some-call-me-bob]] 21:11, 29 July 2010 (UTC)<br />
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==General note==<br />
I know the page gives you powers to make your tears and kisses act as if they were water from the river styx. After a bit of hunting, I ended up finding this, on page 86 of the Manual of the Planes: "Those who taste or touch <nowiki>[the river styx']</nowiki> water must make a Fortitude saving throw (DC 17) or suffer total amnesia. Treat the victim as if feebleminded (as the ''[[feeblemind]]'' spell). Even those who make their saves lose all memory of the events of the last eight hours. Prepared spells remain in memory, although the victim might not realize they're prepared." This is the only source I found that has mechanical rules for the River Styx, but I'm sure others exist. I'm not sure if this is what Frank and K had in mind when writing this class, or if they wrote their own effects somewhere else. --[[User:Badger|Badger]] 23:24, 29 July 2010 (UTC)<br />
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:I'm fairly sure that's it. I didn't know about the Feeblemind. I've already assumed they lose a day on a failed save from an effect like that. It would require actual immersion in the Styx to wipe your mind. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 02:08, 1 August 2010 (UTC)</div>Genowhirlhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Barbarian,_Tome_(3.5e_Class)&diff=479499Talk:Barbarian, Tome (3.5e Class)2010-07-07T04:37:41Z<p>Genowhirl: </p>
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<div>==Additional Namespace Tag?==<br />
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I don't see a Barbarian (DnD Class) page, so why not put this there instead? I haven't been putting those sorts of tags on any of the other classes. Also, don't forget the in-page links for the class features. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 23:05, 12 November 2008 (MST)<br />
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:I think that classes like this are better of being like this: "Barbarian, Races of War (DnD Class)" PS: Still the ID but no bad looking double brackets... --[[User:Sabre070|Sabre070]] 23:33, 12 November 2008 (MST)<br />
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::I'm trying to figure out the in-page links...And, yeah, makes sense. I was hoping that with 3 or 4 variants of classes running around, putting 'Races of War' on this would help clarify it. And you're quite right, the commas are better.[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 23:37, 12 November 2008 (MST)<br />
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== Rating == <br />
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'''Power - 1/5''' I give this class a 1 out of 5 because it is a very good idea, however, you completely disregarged any rules on class creation. I personally would make someone take an ECL adjustment to be this class. You gave the Barbarian more powerful abilites and removed his restrictions. You might want to consider looking up the class construction point system, and using that to build the class. --[[User:67.182.193.168|67.182.193.168]] 02:18, 27 December 2008 (MST)<br />
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'''Wording - 3/5''' I give this class a 3 out of 5 because The wording was fine, just one typo with the Base Attack Bonus. You forgot to reduce the third and fouth attacks. --[[User:67.182.193.168|67.182.193.168]] 02:18, 27 December 2008 (MST)<br />
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'''[[Help:Standards and Formatting (DnD Guideline)|Formatting]] - 5/5''' I give this class a 5 out of 5 because the formatting was perfectly fine. --[[User:67.182.193.168|67.182.193.168]] 02:18, 27 December 2008 (MST)<br />
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'''Flavor - 4/5''' I give this class a 4 out of 5 because you did rather well at taking the standard barbarian and giving him a unique flare. --[[User:67.182.193.168|67.182.193.168]] 02:18, 27 December 2008 (MST)<br />
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:Try playing it. This was created on variant rules designed to even things up a little, on the objective evidence that the current rules are uneven. And, in fact, it follows some specific rules--the main one being that if you're level 10, you should be able to win, by some means, against about half the challenges of CR 10, out of a variety of scenarios (small groups, big bruisers, magic-users, big groups, traps, etc.) And the same applies to all other levels, from 1 to 20. Barbarians are classically encouraged to run screaming bloody murder and hit stuff very hard--but when they try it against monsters past level 7 or so, they're the ones who get murderized, unless the Barbarian becomes a one-trick pony hyperfocused in some combat maneuver or another. Therefore, some adjustment needs to be made so they can Rage, stab the enemy in the face, and actually survive. Even the BAB is thought out--on the basis that taking a -10 and -15 penalty to attacks is just a pile of stupid, considering you'll probably only be able to hit on a natural 20. Check out [[Races of War (3.5e Sourcebook)]] for the rationale and further details. -- [[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 02:32, 27 December 2008 (MST)<br />
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::'''Follow-up:''' I asked around about the CC point system. The answers I got were not that encouraging. As near as I can make out, the point values are arbitrarily assigned according to the value they ''should have'' in the WotC designer's minds, without reference to the what the rules they wrote actually meant, especially in regards re charging and '''trying''' to stab in the face. In other words, this point system is a big pile of randomness and therefore of only accidental use. The only way it could be relevant is if monsters likewise are constructed from a similar point system, scaling by CR. Since that isn't the case, I reject it utterly. -- [[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 18:30, 27 December 2008 (MST)<br />
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:::Third and fourth Attacks do not reduce Base Attack Bonus. This is meant to take into account gameplay past level 10, where WoTC didn't properly playtest their rules. It's not so much a typo as a re-write of how BaB works. Genowhirl mentions this, but I didn't realize until reading his entries in more detail.<br />
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::::And the real kicker is, I didn't even write this class. This was written by the infamous Frank Trollman and Keith. I just think it's good enough, it deserves to be on the wiki. -- [[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 09:56, 29 December 2008 (MST)<br />
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==O Mighty Moderators and Administrators==<br />
Wilt thou find in thy heart to lock this page to the current version, which I just reverted it to? Someone did some drastic changes, and seeing as how this class came from an already-complete document and is not actually a work in progress, I'm trying to keep it matching the original document. -- [[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 09:19, 10 January 2009 (MST)<br />
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== Rating == <br />
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<s>'''Power - 1/5''' I give this class a 1 out of 5 because it's utterly broken. I've read some of the Races of War pages and have seen the author's criticisms of a variety of 3.5e systems, but Rage Dice, Watched by the Totems, Primal Assault, Fast Healing, and especially One with the Beast, combine to make this class incredibly powerful, more powerful I'm certain than other characters of the same class level and probably more than strong enough to go a lot better than 50/50 with CR 19 monsters.</s> --[[User:Jota|Jota]] 09:43, 10 January 2009 (MST)<br />
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::Stricken following the acquisition of further knowledge. -- [[User:Jota|Jota]] 20:24, 5 July 2010 (UTC)<br />
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:The RoW Barbarian has one trick--making a frontal assault. This is a very poor thing to do, tactically and mechanically. Another F&K design point is, "if you're doing something inherently substandard, you'd better be damn good at it". So they made the Barbarian very, very good at the thing people seem to expect Barbarians to do--make full attacks. Anyway, all but one of the SRD CR 19 monsters are dragons, and, as far as I can tell, all of them have HP ''at least'' in the mid-300's, which means some substantial form of bonus damage is in order to make sure the enemies actually notice that you're hitting them. They also seem to have good Fort saves and outrageous Con scores, so they've got a good chance of passing the fort save versus stunning from Great Blows. They're also big and strong, so they could hypothetically grapple the Barbarian to death. Further on the monster's side, all but the behemoth Girallon can fly, so the Barbarian either needs some means of flight or a good bow--and he doesn't get Rage Dice when he's using a bow. And to cap it all off, Level 19 is "Deputy Mayor of Crazytown". The game doesn't even make sense at this point, because there's effects like Gate which are found on monsters a few CRs lower. If you want an idea of a class's balance for levels people can expect to actually see, try playing the same-game test at levels 5, 7, 10, 13, and 15. -- [[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 10:12, 10 January 2009 (MST)<br />
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:What about a returning weapon? I'd have to assume a nigh epic character will know his weakness and takes steps to minimize them (even a Barbarian). -- [[User:Jota|Jota]] 13:29, 10 January 2009 (MST)<br />
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::I just noticed the claim that it's more powerful than other characters of the same level. How shall I put this...? The RoW Fighter gets enough tactical tricks that he can shut down a simple, straight-forward attack. The RoW Samurai wins one-on-one combat if he chooses to go nova. Full spellcasters have so many possible tricks and ways to gyp people and monsters, it's not funny (See [[Spells That Fvcking Kill People (DnD Other)]]). The Rogue is, well, the Rogue. This variant of the Barbarian, though, is simple and easy to play. If you notice, the Rage Dice only works with standard and full attacks, and ''maybe'' AoO's granted by BAB. So you can't Whirlwind, and I'm told you can't double your damage with TWF. The Barbarian, rather than neutralizing his enemies with an endless series of tactical conditions, or flat-out splitting them in half, or throwing down a couple of spells which can completely remove an group of enemies from combat, goes right up to one enemy and hits it very hard a few times. I'm sure one can see the problems with this approach. All of the abilities in here are designed to help cope with those problems, and give you a melee fighter who's easy to play and has a decent chance of living through the day. -- [[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 12:43, 10 January 2009 (MST)<br />
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:::I just think immunity to magic (since that really is what is it) is really too strong. He'll own even a fighter in close range combat and he'll close quick enough that it would be difficult to keep him at a distance. I'll double check the other Races of War classes before I say anymore, but I'll stand by what I said for now. -- [[User:Jota|Jota]] 13:29, 10 January 2009 (MST)<br />
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:::: *Immunity to magic spells that have spell resistance. --[[User:TK-Squared|TK-Squared]] 07:39, 7 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:::::And are we talking about the RoW fighter, or the WoTC Fighter?<br />
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== Rating ==<br />
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'''Power - 4/5''' I give this class a 4 out of 5 because, at first glance, this class appears RIDICULOUSLY overpowered, even by Frank & K standards. Though, after giving the class a good once over, most of the things that I had thought would put it far over the top had massive restrictions on them (such as the fast healing), and so that got it increased in my mind. Though, looking at the class as it is, the way the abilities fit together just doesn't rest well in my mind, and so, I have given this class the rating it has. &rarr; [[User:Rithaniel|<span style=color:Gray; -moz-border-radius-topleft:25px; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px">Rith</span>]]<sup> [[User talk:Rithaniel|<span style=color:black; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px; -moz-border-radius-topleft:20px">(talk)</span>]]</sup> 22:43, 6 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
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'''Wording - 4/5''' I give this class a 4 out of 5 because while all of the class features are easily understood and comprehensive, the strange BAB progression is never explained (I personally know it's from races of war, but others wouldn't, and so would look at it and say, "whuh?"). &rarr; [[User:Rithaniel|<span style=color:Gray; -moz-border-radius-topleft:25px; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px">Rith</span>]]<sup> [[User talk:Rithaniel|<span style=color:black; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px; -moz-border-radius-topleft:20px">(talk)</span>]]</sup> 22:43, 6 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::Basically it is because with the third and fourth attack, hitting anything is nigh impossible. And besides, why do you even get those attacks if you just suck at them? The BAB reworks is designed to make full attacks actually hit stuff. --[[User:T G Geko|T G Geko]] 14:05, 5 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
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'''[[Help:Standards and Formatting (DnD Guideline)|Formatting]] - 3/5''' I give this class a 3 out of 5 because massive portions of the preload are missing, though, interwiki linking is decently comprehensive. &rarr; [[User:Rithaniel|<span style=color:Gray; -moz-border-radius-topleft:25px; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px">Rith</span>]]<sup> [[User talk:Rithaniel|<span style=color:black; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px; -moz-border-radius-topleft:20px">(talk)</span>]]</sup> 22:43, 6 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
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'''Flavor - 5/5''' I give this class a 5 out of 5 because The primal assualt ability made me smile, it's really a clever idea to thow onto the barabarian. &rarr; [[User:Rithaniel|<span style=color:Gray; -moz-border-radius-topleft:25px; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px">Rith</span>]]<sup> [[User talk:Rithaniel|<span style=color:black; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px; -moz-border-radius-topleft:20px">(talk)</span>]]</sup> 22:43, 6 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:I sorta like One With The Beast, just for the name and implications of it. I aspire to playing a Tome Barbarian to level 19... --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 23:31, 6 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::Most of this class I like, but Fast Healing still seems a bit much for me. The notion that you can go right back up to full health in a few rounds or less? Personally, I'd cap how much fast healing would heal at about 50 to 75% of full health, or even better have a "lasting damage" mechanic similar to the one they use in Ninja Gaiden II (XBox 360). That said, I'm sure Frank and K have their reasons. -- [[User:Mythos Specialist|Mythos]] 11:42, 20 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:::The reasons are basically twofold. First, they assume out of combat healing is essentially limitless and free. With wands of cure light wounds, being able to rest whenever you want, etc, out of combat healing just doesn't matter. In combat, this provides a good reason not to rage all the time. [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] 13:59, 20 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::::All well and good, but Fast Healing 20 is a bit hard to chew on. Healing 20 HP a round out of combat may not be invincibility, but it comes close. At least without the "lasting damage" mechanic, where half the damage from critical hits can at least creep up on you over time. -- [[User:Mythos Specialist|Mythos]] 19:54, 21 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:::::That's at level 20. At level 20, your characters are GODS. At level 20, the wizard and cleric are stronger than superman and Moses combined. And your concern is that the barbarian can... swim through lava a bit better, but still not that well? Recover from his wounds? While his party members are conjuring biblical plagues, forcing archdemons to bend to their will, and so on? Past level 3 or so, out of combat healing is pretty much free and infinite, you'll go into each encounter with full HP. You die from a burst of damage or a save or die effect in one combat, not from being worn down HP wise. [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] 20:10, 21 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:(Reverting to indentation). Also, the fast healing is basically there to keep the Barbarian alive because his shtick is doing a very unoptimal thing--running up and full-attacking, again and again. Often against monsters bigger and stronger than he is. He'll take a lot of hits, but the Fast Healing sees to it that he's not draining the party's resources too much. Even Wands of CLW can take a chunk out of your money if you keep buying them--and they take a lot of time for a cleric. One of F&K's design principles is that if a class's thing is really subpar compared to other options, it needs some help. You might not agree with that, but that's the reason why the Assassin's Death Attack does better damage than Fireball and why the Barbarian's abilities look so impressive. The Assassin is doing Weapon + (Level + 2)d6 damage to one target, every other round (dice and circumstances willing) because there are effects which can do (Level)d6 to multiple targets, and force the ''targets'' to succeed on a dice roll or take damage. Likewise, the Barbarian gets some very impressive physical abilities BECAUSE he's trying to hit something that's both bigger and stronger and bound to have an opinion about it. If a Barbarian's not taking hits, he's not doing it right. And some of those hits are from creatures with outrageous sizes and strength scores, and would make the cleric eat through a lot of wands or spells in a hurry. So the Barbarian can recover from them on his own if he isn't actually killed. That said, if you want to use the class, feel free to use it with whatever caveats you want. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 21:48, 21 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
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Fair enough. -- [[User:Mythos Specialist|Mythos]] 15:21, 24 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
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== Saves ==<br />
By level 5 this class is only ever making FORT saves (while raging). Dodge a fireball? Fort save. Resist a charm? Fort save. Does this not seem a little strong to anyone else? Barbarians are almost constantly raging, so isn't this pretty much giving them 2 epic feats by level 5 (Fort equivalents of Dex will and Dex fort)? With the exceptions of traps and surprises, would he ever make any other sort of save? I'm sure there is some detail I'm missing here, can someone tell me what I've overlooked? Or am I just overestimating the power of those abilities?--[[User:Badger|Badger]] 15:05, 7 August 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:They aren't raging in the first round of combat. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 16:10, 7 August 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::Until level 19. -- [[User:Jota|Jota]] 18:38, 7 August 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:::Well, yeah, there is that. But that's level 19. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 18:46, 7 August 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::::I know. I'm just saying. -- [[User:Jota|Jota]] 18:59, 7 August 2009 (MDT)<br />
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== Rating == <br />
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'''Power - 6/5''' I give this class a 6 out of 5 because I personnaly think it's a bit overpowered... The rage dice are something you can't just put without removing anything... The fast healing is good. And for the higher level powers, it's a bit normal they're pretty strong. --[[Special:Contributions/24.201.232.83|24.201.232.83]] 20:02, 18 January 2010 (UTC)<br />
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:The Barbarian basically gets everything it needs in-class. It's meant as something simple for a newbie to play--something that doesn't require a lot of system mastery to keep up with, and doesn't have any hidden traps which can kill your character. The Barbarian, optimization means, "Increase your Con score and Fort saves" and "get some extra AC". Everything it has, it has for a reason. Even the Fast Healing is designed so a Barbarian won't die from doing what they do (full-attacking monsters as close as they are, and therefore being subject to some serious pain) while NOT sucking the party's healer dry. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 21:57, 18 January 2010 (UTC)<br />
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== Rating == <br />
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'''Power - 2/5''' I give this class a 2 out of 5 because There are far too many abilities granted a far too early a stage in the game for this to be a balanced character class. Just looking at what the character receives while raging at level 1 is ridiculous. --[[User:Ewjones|Ewjones]] 18:27, 5 July 2010 (UTC)<br />
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:I honestly have to disagree on just about all those points. Firstly, if you actually read the Races of War book that this comes from you would know that this barbarian is intended to have as much contribution to a party as a well-played wizard (which is how people are supposed to play wizards instead of just chucking fireballs and lightning bolts). Thus, it is obviously going to look overpowered compared to the SRD Barbarian which, and I don't think I'm putting this too bluntly, sucks major donkey balls. At the very least, it does when compared to the wizard in the same party.<br />
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:Secondly, the differences in rage at 1st level between the SRD Barbarian and this barbarian are not actually all that big, except perhaps for the extended duration and removal of the post-rage fatigue (which I love because I think those things make the SRD Barbarian suck). This gives a +2 bonus to attack and damage, which at 1st level is equal to the +4 bonus to Strength given by the SRD barbarian and might even be inferior since the SRD version can use a two-handed weapon to get the damage bonus from the +4 Strength to be at least +3 at level 1. The +2 to all saves is a little better than the +4 bonus to Will from the SRD Barbarian, but still falls into basically the same category. Same with the penalty to Armor Class. The DR might look powerful, but since it only applies when raging it isn't that much more powerful than the temporary hit points provided by the Constitution bonus from the SRD Barbarian (that is, assuming your Con is reasonable in the first place). After that, Combat Healing doesn't apply when raging, so you're basically in the same boat as the SRD Barbarian except you aren't a once-a-day liability.<br />
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:I'm sure that someone else made a similar argument earlier in this talk page, but I was too lazy to look. In conclusion, it's really not that bad. God forbid that someone made a barbarian that could actually do stuff. - [[User:ThunderGod Cid|TG Cid]] 13:51, 6 July 2010 (UTC) <br />
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'''Wording - 4/5''' I give this class a 4 out of 5 because Too much of the descriptive text is written in the second person, addressing the reader. --[[User:Ewjones|Ewjones]] 18:27, 5 July 2010 (UTC)<br />
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'''[[Help:Standards and Formatting (DnD Guideline)|Formatting]] - 4/5''' I give this class a 4 out of 5 because The formatting seems fairly decent, but could be areas of improvement. --[[User:Ewjones|Ewjones]] 18:27, 5 July 2010 (UTC)<br />
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:I more or less agree, I suppose. I don't know if it's just me, but the class feature tables no longer have any frame and I think it looks fugly as hell. It's not exclusive to this page, though, so I wouldn't condemn it for that reason. F&K never did bother with fluff text, either, so it's missing some things right off the bat. - [[User:ThunderGod Cid|TG Cid]] 13:51, 6 July 2010 (UTC)<br />
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'''Flavor - 3/5''' I give this class a 3 out of 5 because This class seems to simply be an overpowered version of the barbarian in the 3.5 player's handbook. --[[User:Ewjones|Ewjones]] 18:27, 5 July 2010 (UTC)<br />
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:See above argument(s). - [[User:ThunderGod Cid|TG Cid]] 13:51, 6 July 2010 (UTC)<br />
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::I've been a little out of it lately (broke a finger. Boy, howdy, that'll throw your typing off), but I have to say that the Flavor rating here should be nulled. It's not based on any standard of flavor I've seen. Sure, it's Barbarian replacement. But it also goes a lot farther than anything in the PHB to be flavorful. Seriously, look at the ability names. 'Watched by Totems' and 'One with the Beast'. 'Primal Assault' and 'Savagery'. Those are a lot better than "Trap Sense +2" or "Favored Enemy" or "Huge Wild Shape" --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 04:37, 7 July 2010 (UTC)<br />
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:::Whoops, forgot to sign the above. But, seriously, if this takes a hit for flavor, every class in the SRD should be scoring straight 1's or 0's for flavor. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 04:37, 7 July 2010 (UTC)</div>Genowhirlhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Barbarian,_Tome_(3.5e_Class)&diff=479496Talk:Barbarian, Tome (3.5e Class)2010-07-07T04:35:26Z<p>Genowhirl: </p>
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<div>==Additional Namespace Tag?==<br />
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I don't see a Barbarian (DnD Class) page, so why not put this there instead? I haven't been putting those sorts of tags on any of the other classes. Also, don't forget the in-page links for the class features. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 23:05, 12 November 2008 (MST)<br />
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:I think that classes like this are better of being like this: "Barbarian, Races of War (DnD Class)" PS: Still the ID but no bad looking double brackets... --[[User:Sabre070|Sabre070]] 23:33, 12 November 2008 (MST)<br />
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::I'm trying to figure out the in-page links...And, yeah, makes sense. I was hoping that with 3 or 4 variants of classes running around, putting 'Races of War' on this would help clarify it. And you're quite right, the commas are better.[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 23:37, 12 November 2008 (MST)<br />
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== Rating == <br />
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'''Power - 1/5''' I give this class a 1 out of 5 because it is a very good idea, however, you completely disregarged any rules on class creation. I personally would make someone take an ECL adjustment to be this class. You gave the Barbarian more powerful abilites and removed his restrictions. You might want to consider looking up the class construction point system, and using that to build the class. --[[User:67.182.193.168|67.182.193.168]] 02:18, 27 December 2008 (MST)<br />
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'''Wording - 3/5''' I give this class a 3 out of 5 because The wording was fine, just one typo with the Base Attack Bonus. You forgot to reduce the third and fouth attacks. --[[User:67.182.193.168|67.182.193.168]] 02:18, 27 December 2008 (MST)<br />
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'''[[Help:Standards and Formatting (DnD Guideline)|Formatting]] - 5/5''' I give this class a 5 out of 5 because the formatting was perfectly fine. --[[User:67.182.193.168|67.182.193.168]] 02:18, 27 December 2008 (MST)<br />
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'''Flavor - 4/5''' I give this class a 4 out of 5 because you did rather well at taking the standard barbarian and giving him a unique flare. --[[User:67.182.193.168|67.182.193.168]] 02:18, 27 December 2008 (MST)<br />
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:Try playing it. This was created on variant rules designed to even things up a little, on the objective evidence that the current rules are uneven. And, in fact, it follows some specific rules--the main one being that if you're level 10, you should be able to win, by some means, against about half the challenges of CR 10, out of a variety of scenarios (small groups, big bruisers, magic-users, big groups, traps, etc.) And the same applies to all other levels, from 1 to 20. Barbarians are classically encouraged to run screaming bloody murder and hit stuff very hard--but when they try it against monsters past level 7 or so, they're the ones who get murderized, unless the Barbarian becomes a one-trick pony hyperfocused in some combat maneuver or another. Therefore, some adjustment needs to be made so they can Rage, stab the enemy in the face, and actually survive. Even the BAB is thought out--on the basis that taking a -10 and -15 penalty to attacks is just a pile of stupid, considering you'll probably only be able to hit on a natural 20. Check out [[Races of War (3.5e Sourcebook)]] for the rationale and further details. -- [[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 02:32, 27 December 2008 (MST)<br />
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::'''Follow-up:''' I asked around about the CC point system. The answers I got were not that encouraging. As near as I can make out, the point values are arbitrarily assigned according to the value they ''should have'' in the WotC designer's minds, without reference to the what the rules they wrote actually meant, especially in regards re charging and '''trying''' to stab in the face. In other words, this point system is a big pile of randomness and therefore of only accidental use. The only way it could be relevant is if monsters likewise are constructed from a similar point system, scaling by CR. Since that isn't the case, I reject it utterly. -- [[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 18:30, 27 December 2008 (MST)<br />
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:::Third and fourth Attacks do not reduce Base Attack Bonus. This is meant to take into account gameplay past level 10, where WoTC didn't properly playtest their rules. It's not so much a typo as a re-write of how BaB works. Genowhirl mentions this, but I didn't realize until reading his entries in more detail.<br />
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::::And the real kicker is, I didn't even write this class. This was written by the infamous Frank Trollman and Keith. I just think it's good enough, it deserves to be on the wiki. -- [[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 09:56, 29 December 2008 (MST)<br />
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==O Mighty Moderators and Administrators==<br />
Wilt thou find in thy heart to lock this page to the current version, which I just reverted it to? Someone did some drastic changes, and seeing as how this class came from an already-complete document and is not actually a work in progress, I'm trying to keep it matching the original document. -- [[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 09:19, 10 January 2009 (MST)<br />
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== Rating == <br />
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<s>'''Power - 1/5''' I give this class a 1 out of 5 because it's utterly broken. I've read some of the Races of War pages and have seen the author's criticisms of a variety of 3.5e systems, but Rage Dice, Watched by the Totems, Primal Assault, Fast Healing, and especially One with the Beast, combine to make this class incredibly powerful, more powerful I'm certain than other characters of the same class level and probably more than strong enough to go a lot better than 50/50 with CR 19 monsters.</s> --[[User:Jota|Jota]] 09:43, 10 January 2009 (MST)<br />
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::Stricken following the acquisition of further knowledge. -- [[User:Jota|Jota]] 20:24, 5 July 2010 (UTC)<br />
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:The RoW Barbarian has one trick--making a frontal assault. This is a very poor thing to do, tactically and mechanically. Another F&K design point is, "if you're doing something inherently substandard, you'd better be damn good at it". So they made the Barbarian very, very good at the thing people seem to expect Barbarians to do--make full attacks. Anyway, all but one of the SRD CR 19 monsters are dragons, and, as far as I can tell, all of them have HP ''at least'' in the mid-300's, which means some substantial form of bonus damage is in order to make sure the enemies actually notice that you're hitting them. They also seem to have good Fort saves and outrageous Con scores, so they've got a good chance of passing the fort save versus stunning from Great Blows. They're also big and strong, so they could hypothetically grapple the Barbarian to death. Further on the monster's side, all but the behemoth Girallon can fly, so the Barbarian either needs some means of flight or a good bow--and he doesn't get Rage Dice when he's using a bow. And to cap it all off, Level 19 is "Deputy Mayor of Crazytown". The game doesn't even make sense at this point, because there's effects like Gate which are found on monsters a few CRs lower. If you want an idea of a class's balance for levels people can expect to actually see, try playing the same-game test at levels 5, 7, 10, 13, and 15. -- [[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 10:12, 10 January 2009 (MST)<br />
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:What about a returning weapon? I'd have to assume a nigh epic character will know his weakness and takes steps to minimize them (even a Barbarian). -- [[User:Jota|Jota]] 13:29, 10 January 2009 (MST)<br />
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::I just noticed the claim that it's more powerful than other characters of the same level. How shall I put this...? The RoW Fighter gets enough tactical tricks that he can shut down a simple, straight-forward attack. The RoW Samurai wins one-on-one combat if he chooses to go nova. Full spellcasters have so many possible tricks and ways to gyp people and monsters, it's not funny (See [[Spells That Fvcking Kill People (DnD Other)]]). The Rogue is, well, the Rogue. This variant of the Barbarian, though, is simple and easy to play. If you notice, the Rage Dice only works with standard and full attacks, and ''maybe'' AoO's granted by BAB. So you can't Whirlwind, and I'm told you can't double your damage with TWF. The Barbarian, rather than neutralizing his enemies with an endless series of tactical conditions, or flat-out splitting them in half, or throwing down a couple of spells which can completely remove an group of enemies from combat, goes right up to one enemy and hits it very hard a few times. I'm sure one can see the problems with this approach. All of the abilities in here are designed to help cope with those problems, and give you a melee fighter who's easy to play and has a decent chance of living through the day. -- [[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 12:43, 10 January 2009 (MST)<br />
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:::I just think immunity to magic (since that really is what is it) is really too strong. He'll own even a fighter in close range combat and he'll close quick enough that it would be difficult to keep him at a distance. I'll double check the other Races of War classes before I say anymore, but I'll stand by what I said for now. -- [[User:Jota|Jota]] 13:29, 10 January 2009 (MST)<br />
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:::: *Immunity to magic spells that have spell resistance. --[[User:TK-Squared|TK-Squared]] 07:39, 7 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:::::And are we talking about the RoW fighter, or the WoTC Fighter?<br />
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== Rating ==<br />
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'''Power - 4/5''' I give this class a 4 out of 5 because, at first glance, this class appears RIDICULOUSLY overpowered, even by Frank & K standards. Though, after giving the class a good once over, most of the things that I had thought would put it far over the top had massive restrictions on them (such as the fast healing), and so that got it increased in my mind. Though, looking at the class as it is, the way the abilities fit together just doesn't rest well in my mind, and so, I have given this class the rating it has. &rarr; [[User:Rithaniel|<span style=color:Gray; -moz-border-radius-topleft:25px; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px">Rith</span>]]<sup> [[User talk:Rithaniel|<span style=color:black; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px; -moz-border-radius-topleft:20px">(talk)</span>]]</sup> 22:43, 6 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
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'''Wording - 4/5''' I give this class a 4 out of 5 because while all of the class features are easily understood and comprehensive, the strange BAB progression is never explained (I personally know it's from races of war, but others wouldn't, and so would look at it and say, "whuh?"). &rarr; [[User:Rithaniel|<span style=color:Gray; -moz-border-radius-topleft:25px; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px">Rith</span>]]<sup> [[User talk:Rithaniel|<span style=color:black; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px; -moz-border-radius-topleft:20px">(talk)</span>]]</sup> 22:43, 6 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::Basically it is because with the third and fourth attack, hitting anything is nigh impossible. And besides, why do you even get those attacks if you just suck at them? The BAB reworks is designed to make full attacks actually hit stuff. --[[User:T G Geko|T G Geko]] 14:05, 5 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
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'''[[Help:Standards and Formatting (DnD Guideline)|Formatting]] - 3/5''' I give this class a 3 out of 5 because massive portions of the preload are missing, though, interwiki linking is decently comprehensive. &rarr; [[User:Rithaniel|<span style=color:Gray; -moz-border-radius-topleft:25px; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px">Rith</span>]]<sup> [[User talk:Rithaniel|<span style=color:black; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px; -moz-border-radius-topleft:20px">(talk)</span>]]</sup> 22:43, 6 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
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'''Flavor - 5/5''' I give this class a 5 out of 5 because The primal assualt ability made me smile, it's really a clever idea to thow onto the barabarian. &rarr; [[User:Rithaniel|<span style=color:Gray; -moz-border-radius-topleft:25px; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px">Rith</span>]]<sup> [[User talk:Rithaniel|<span style=color:black; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px; -moz-border-radius-topleft:20px">(talk)</span>]]</sup> 22:43, 6 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:I sorta like One With The Beast, just for the name and implications of it. I aspire to playing a Tome Barbarian to level 19... --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 23:31, 6 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::Most of this class I like, but Fast Healing still seems a bit much for me. The notion that you can go right back up to full health in a few rounds or less? Personally, I'd cap how much fast healing would heal at about 50 to 75% of full health, or even better have a "lasting damage" mechanic similar to the one they use in Ninja Gaiden II (XBox 360). That said, I'm sure Frank and K have their reasons. -- [[User:Mythos Specialist|Mythos]] 11:42, 20 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:::The reasons are basically twofold. First, they assume out of combat healing is essentially limitless and free. With wands of cure light wounds, being able to rest whenever you want, etc, out of combat healing just doesn't matter. In combat, this provides a good reason not to rage all the time. [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] 13:59, 20 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::::All well and good, but Fast Healing 20 is a bit hard to chew on. Healing 20 HP a round out of combat may not be invincibility, but it comes close. At least without the "lasting damage" mechanic, where half the damage from critical hits can at least creep up on you over time. -- [[User:Mythos Specialist|Mythos]] 19:54, 21 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:::::That's at level 20. At level 20, your characters are GODS. At level 20, the wizard and cleric are stronger than superman and Moses combined. And your concern is that the barbarian can... swim through lava a bit better, but still not that well? Recover from his wounds? While his party members are conjuring biblical plagues, forcing archdemons to bend to their will, and so on? Past level 3 or so, out of combat healing is pretty much free and infinite, you'll go into each encounter with full HP. You die from a burst of damage or a save or die effect in one combat, not from being worn down HP wise. [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] 20:10, 21 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:(Reverting to indentation). Also, the fast healing is basically there to keep the Barbarian alive because his shtick is doing a very unoptimal thing--running up and full-attacking, again and again. Often against monsters bigger and stronger than he is. He'll take a lot of hits, but the Fast Healing sees to it that he's not draining the party's resources too much. Even Wands of CLW can take a chunk out of your money if you keep buying them--and they take a lot of time for a cleric. One of F&K's design principles is that if a class's thing is really subpar compared to other options, it needs some help. You might not agree with that, but that's the reason why the Assassin's Death Attack does better damage than Fireball and why the Barbarian's abilities look so impressive. The Assassin is doing Weapon + (Level + 2)d6 damage to one target, every other round (dice and circumstances willing) because there are effects which can do (Level)d6 to multiple targets, and force the ''targets'' to succeed on a dice roll or take damage. Likewise, the Barbarian gets some very impressive physical abilities BECAUSE he's trying to hit something that's both bigger and stronger and bound to have an opinion about it. If a Barbarian's not taking hits, he's not doing it right. And some of those hits are from creatures with outrageous sizes and strength scores, and would make the cleric eat through a lot of wands or spells in a hurry. So the Barbarian can recover from them on his own if he isn't actually killed. That said, if you want to use the class, feel free to use it with whatever caveats you want. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 21:48, 21 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
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Fair enough. -- [[User:Mythos Specialist|Mythos]] 15:21, 24 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
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== Saves ==<br />
By level 5 this class is only ever making FORT saves (while raging). Dodge a fireball? Fort save. Resist a charm? Fort save. Does this not seem a little strong to anyone else? Barbarians are almost constantly raging, so isn't this pretty much giving them 2 epic feats by level 5 (Fort equivalents of Dex will and Dex fort)? With the exceptions of traps and surprises, would he ever make any other sort of save? I'm sure there is some detail I'm missing here, can someone tell me what I've overlooked? Or am I just overestimating the power of those abilities?--[[User:Badger|Badger]] 15:05, 7 August 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:They aren't raging in the first round of combat. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 16:10, 7 August 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::Until level 19. -- [[User:Jota|Jota]] 18:38, 7 August 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:::Well, yeah, there is that. But that's level 19. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 18:46, 7 August 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::::I know. I'm just saying. -- [[User:Jota|Jota]] 18:59, 7 August 2009 (MDT)<br />
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== Rating == <br />
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'''Power - 6/5''' I give this class a 6 out of 5 because I personnaly think it's a bit overpowered... The rage dice are something you can't just put without removing anything... The fast healing is good. And for the higher level powers, it's a bit normal they're pretty strong. --[[Special:Contributions/24.201.232.83|24.201.232.83]] 20:02, 18 January 2010 (UTC)<br />
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:The Barbarian basically gets everything it needs in-class. It's meant as something simple for a newbie to play--something that doesn't require a lot of system mastery to keep up with, and doesn't have any hidden traps which can kill your character. The Barbarian, optimization means, "Increase your Con score and Fort saves" and "get some extra AC". Everything it has, it has for a reason. Even the Fast Healing is designed so a Barbarian won't die from doing what they do (full-attacking monsters as close as they are, and therefore being subject to some serious pain) while NOT sucking the party's healer dry. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 21:57, 18 January 2010 (UTC)<br />
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== Rating == <br />
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'''Power - 2/5''' I give this class a 2 out of 5 because There are far too many abilities granted a far too early a stage in the game for this to be a balanced character class. Just looking at what the character receives while raging at level 1 is ridiculous. --[[User:Ewjones|Ewjones]] 18:27, 5 July 2010 (UTC)<br />
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:I honestly have to disagree on just about all those points. Firstly, if you actually read the Races of War book that this comes from you would know that this barbarian is intended to have as much contribution to a party as a well-played wizard (which is how people are supposed to play wizards instead of just chucking fireballs and lightning bolts). Thus, it is obviously going to look overpowered compared to the SRD Barbarian which, and I don't think I'm putting this too bluntly, sucks major donkey balls. At the very least, it does when compared to the wizard in the same party.<br />
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:Secondly, the differences in rage at 1st level between the SRD Barbarian and this barbarian are not actually all that big, except perhaps for the extended duration and removal of the post-rage fatigue (which I love because I think those things make the SRD Barbarian suck). This gives a +2 bonus to attack and damage, which at 1st level is equal to the +4 bonus to Strength given by the SRD barbarian and might even be inferior since the SRD version can use a two-handed weapon to get the damage bonus from the +4 Strength to be at least +3 at level 1. The +2 to all saves is a little better than the +4 bonus to Will from the SRD Barbarian, but still falls into basically the same category. Same with the penalty to Armor Class. The DR might look powerful, but since it only applies when raging it isn't that much more powerful than the temporary hit points provided by the Constitution bonus from the SRD Barbarian (that is, assuming your Con is reasonable in the first place). After that, Combat Healing doesn't apply when raging, so you're basically in the same boat as the SRD Barbarian except you aren't a once-a-day liability.<br />
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:I'm sure that someone else made a similar argument earlier in this talk page, but I was too lazy to look. In conclusion, it's really not that bad. God forbid that someone made a barbarian that could actually do stuff. - [[User:ThunderGod Cid|TG Cid]] 13:51, 6 July 2010 (UTC) <br />
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'''Wording - 4/5''' I give this class a 4 out of 5 because Too much of the descriptive text is written in the second person, addressing the reader. --[[User:Ewjones|Ewjones]] 18:27, 5 July 2010 (UTC)<br />
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'''[[Help:Standards and Formatting (DnD Guideline)|Formatting]] - 4/5''' I give this class a 4 out of 5 because The formatting seems fairly decent, but could be areas of improvement. --[[User:Ewjones|Ewjones]] 18:27, 5 July 2010 (UTC)<br />
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:I more or less agree, I suppose. I don't know if it's just me, but the class feature tables no longer have any frame and I think it looks fugly as hell. It's not exclusive to this page, though, so I wouldn't condemn it for that reason. F&K never did bother with fluff text, either, so it's missing some things right off the bat. - [[User:ThunderGod Cid|TG Cid]] 13:51, 6 July 2010 (UTC)<br />
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'''Flavor - 3/5''' I give this class a 3 out of 5 because This class seems to simply be an overpowered version of the barbarian in the 3.5 player's handbook. --[[User:Ewjones|Ewjones]] 18:27, 5 July 2010 (UTC)<br />
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:See above argument(s). - [[User:ThunderGod Cid|TG Cid]] 13:51, 6 July 2010 (UTC)<br />
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::I've been a little out of it lately (broke a finger. Boy, howdy, that'll throw your typing off), but I have to say that the Flavor rating here should be nulled. It's not based on any standard of flavor I've seen. Sure, it's Barbarian replacement. But it also goes a lot farther than anything in the PHB to be flavorful. Seriously, look at the ability names. 'Watched by Totems' and 'One with the Beast'. 'Primal Assault' and 'Savagery'. Those are a lot better than "Trap Sense +2" or "Favored Enemy" or "Huge Wild Shape"</div>Genowhirlhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Stranger_with_the_Burning_Eyes_(3.5e_Prestige_Class)&diff=477957Talk:Stranger with the Burning Eyes (3.5e Prestige Class)2010-06-28T13:17:39Z<p>Genowhirl: </p>
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<div>While I love the concept, there is a problem with the class. Spontaneous casting and the ability to cast Magic Jar pretty much means it's a sorceror-only class. Sorcerors don't get Knowledge (Religion), and if you need 9 ranks in it, the requirements are almost cripplingly difficult to meet.<br />
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:Sister material ([[Tome of Fiends (3.5e Sourcebook)|Tome of Fiends]]) to the source material (Tome of Necromancy) introduces a new mechanic for spellcasting, the sphere, and the corresponding class, the conduit of the lower planes, does have Knowledge (Religion) as a class skill. I'm not sure if casting the ninth level options from the sphere mechanic qualifies as fifth level spells, but if it does then 10 levels of conduit with the Voracity sphere make it a logical entry point. <br />
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:I would also note there are other ways of getting this as well, such as Able Learner, taking a single level in a class that has Knowledge: Religion (since once a skill is a class skill the ranks are then always capped at level + 3, even if they must be purchased at cross-class rates), the Apprenticeship (Devil) feat from the Tome of Fiends, and you could also be a favored soul with the Attune Sphere (Voracity) feat, so it's not so out of reach. -- [[User:Jota|Jota]] 06:38, 28 June 2010 (UTC)<br />
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::It ''may'' also be a dig at one of the official WotC sourcebooks--Tome & Blood. I hear it, too, contained PrCs with skill requirements that stuck it to Sorcerors. So, I'll probably verify that when I get a moment. On the up side, feel free to sub K (Arcana) for that. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 11:53, 28 June 2010 (UTC)<br />
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::All skills in Tome are learned at 1 point per 1 rank rate, although cross-class skills are capped normally at (level+3)/2. [[Special:Contributions/89.175.18.90|89.175.18.90]] 12:56, 28 June 2010 (UTC)<br />
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:::Looks like Dread Necromancer can meet all the requirements. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 13:17, 28 June 2010 (UTC)</div>Genowhirlhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Stranger_with_the_Burning_Eyes_(3.5e_Prestige_Class)&diff=477953Talk:Stranger with the Burning Eyes (3.5e Prestige Class)2010-06-28T11:53:31Z<p>Genowhirl: </p>
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<div>While I love the concept, there is a problem with the class. Spontaneous casting and the ability to cast Magic Jar pretty much means it's a sorceror-only class. Sorcerors don't get Knowledge (Religion), and if you need 9 ranks in it, the requirements are almost cripplingly difficult to meet.<br />
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:Sister material ([[Tome of Fiends (3.5e Sourcebook)|Tome of Fiends]]) to the source material (Tome of Necromancy) introduces a new mechanic for spellcasting, the sphere, and the corresponding class, the conduit of the lower planes, does have Knowledge (Religion) as a class skill. I'm not sure if casting the ninth level options from the sphere mechanic qualifies as fifth level spells, but if it does then 10 levels of conduit with the Voracity sphere make it a logical entry point. <br />
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:I would also note there are other ways of getting this as well, such as Able Learner, taking a single level in a class that has Knowledge: Religion (since once a skill is a class skill the ranks are then always capped at level + 3, even if they must be purchased at cross-class rates), the Apprenticeship (Devil) feat from the Tome of Fiends, and you could also be a favored soul with the Attune Sphere (Voracity) feat, so it's not so out of reach. -- [[User:Jota|Jota]] 06:38, 28 June 2010 (UTC)<br />
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::It ''may'' also be a dig at one of the official WotC sourcebooks--Tome & Blood. I hear it, too, contained PrCs with skill requirements that stuck it to Sorcerors. So, I'll probably verify that when I get a moment. On the up side, feel free to sub K (Arcana) for that. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 11:53, 28 June 2010 (UTC)</div>Genowhirlhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Samurai,_Races_of_War_(3.5e_Class)&diff=472572Talk:Samurai, Races of War (3.5e Class)2010-06-02T16:18:08Z<p>Genowhirl: </p>
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<div>== Balance Issues ==<br />
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I dislike that parry magic and reflect magic can be used infinitely to render the samurai immune to targeted magic. Attack rolls will always be higher than spell DCs, thus they will never miss the AC(baring the natural '1' rule). Also, ignoring AC bonuses from spells and spell-like abilities is cumbersome mid-combat, perhaps they should get a bonus to hit based on the number of buffs on the target, rather than recalculating the characters AC every time they are going to get hit. Piercing force effects is an epic ability, i think getting it at level 10 with no failure is over powered. Kiai! is broken, people running around with x4 crit weapons should not have the ability to multiply their damage by 4 at will. lower the ammount of times they can do it, or give it the chance to fail, and restrict it to their Ancestral Weaponry, at least. To clarify, Iaijutsu Focus allows someone to use their next round's swift action to perform Dex+1 attacks, against as many or as few targets as the samurai likes, Meaning a samurai with a +4 dex gets 5 EXTRA attacks per round, at his highest BAB? If so, that is far and above broken. I am not putting the balance template on this because the authors seem not not want anyone to edit it, but as far as typical D&D fighter classes, this is better than all of them, hands down. --[[User:Ganre|Ganre]] 01:43, 17 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
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:I agree that the Samurai can be difficult to run games for, but I've been able to work around it by making a gentleman's agreement with the player about their ancestral weapon (I'll allow a x3 crit modifier, for example) and giving them plenty of baddies to carve up before they reach their real objective (I like Frank and K stuff because I can always ask a player to tone it down without offending the group, but people get ticked over someone getting a free power boost). However, I think you misunderstand a few points. Force effects are a caster's "I win" button against non-casters. [[SRD:Wall of Force]] is immune to all mundane damage and the only way to hurt it or bypass it is with spells. I realize this may sound redundant, but only casters have spells; that means that only other casters are equipped to deal with Force effect. [[SRD:Forcecage]] is an even more disrespectful kick in the testicles becase you can seal someone it in...and they don't get a saving throw! If they don't have some fairly advanced spells, they can't get out. So giving a melee-based class whose common depiction has them slicing through ''everything'' an ability to carve through Force Effects? That's not bad. Heck, it's not like the ability will automatically let them kill something; it's just increasing the amount of substances they can damage. In this case, the substance is Iwinium for casters, and I therefore approve. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 09:27, 19 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::That is exactly why it's a team based game, the fighter should not be doing everything. He can get a dispelling weapon to try and deal with the cage, but he's not going to 100% success rate, now if he has a decent wizard/cleric arround, well now, totally different story, he is out of the cage in a single round. --[[User:Ganre|Ganre]] 15:10, 19 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::: "Like a wall of force spell, a forcecage resists dispel magic, but it is vulnerable to a disintegrate spell, and it can be destroyed by a sphere of annihilation or a rod of cancellation." Also yes it a team game but everyone should be able to overcome their share of challenge. We never know when the other players at the table might want to play class outside the base roles. A class for this reason shouldn't be balance based upon a team. What happen if you got no cleric but 2 barbarian... or you are only 3 people in the group. --[[User:Lord Dhazriel|Lord Dhazriel]] 15:25, 19 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::::Also, casters make the magic items. They get the invincible Force effects. They can, if they so choose, completely screw over something with one action (At early levels they can use something like Color Spray to do this. At higher levels, they can do things like Forcecage and Shapechange). The D&D system relies upon casters to make the hallmarks, so I don't have a problem with that. I do, however, have a problem with people gladly swallowing a wizard throwing down a Cloudkill spell, but balking at a non-caster-type doing something visually spectacular--like shattering a Force effect, or being able to reliably cut something in half. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 15:31, 19 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
:::::I can't think of anything wrong with a 20 level core class mimicking a power granted by an epic prestige class by 10th level, really. At least he's not getting a +5 ''ghost touch vorpal'' weapon for 100 gold. Or ignoring DR and hardness, or getting attack of opportunity ''dispel magic'', or anything like that. ...Oh wait. [[User:Atypicaloracle|Atypicaloracle]] 03:46, 2 June 2010 (UTC)<br />
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== Rating ==<br />
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'''Power - 4.5/5''' I give this class a 4.5 out of 5 because, while I can see that the grand majority of the abilities this class has are overall balanced, the ability to automatically confirm criticals is a little much to chew, even considering Frank & K's viewpoint on classes. &rarr; [[User:Rithaniel|<span style=color:Gray; -moz-border-radius-topleft:25px; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px">Rith</span>]]<sup> [[User talk:Rithaniel|<span style=color:black; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px; -moz-border-radius-topleft:20px">(talk)</span>]]</sup> 03:01, 26 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
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'''Wording - 4.9/5''' I give this class a 4.9 out of 5 because there is an extra word in the "Iaijutsu Focus" description that is a little confusing. &rarr; [[User:Rithaniel|<span style=color:Gray; -moz-border-radius-topleft:25px; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px">Rith</span>]]<sup> [[User talk:Rithaniel|<span style=color:black; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px; -moz-border-radius-topleft:20px">(talk)</span>]]</sup> 03:01, 26 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
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'''[[Help:Standards and Formatting (DnD Guideline)|Formatting]] - 2.5/5''' I give this class a 2.5 out of 5 because massive portions of the preload are missing, and, while interwiki linking is effectively comprehensive, there are several malformed links on the page. &rarr; [[User:Rithaniel|<span style=color:Gray; -moz-border-radius-topleft:25px; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px">Rith</span>]]<sup> [[User talk:Rithaniel|<span style=color:black; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px; -moz-border-radius-topleft:20px">(talk)</span>]]</sup> 03:01, 26 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
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'''Flavor - 5/5''' I give this class a 5 out of 5 because this class is, truly, an excellent example of what a Samurai should be. &rarr; [[User:Rithaniel|<span style=color:Gray; -moz-border-radius-topleft:25px; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px">Rith</span>]]<sup> [[User talk:Rithaniel|<span style=color:black; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:20px; -moz-border-radius-topleft:20px">(talk)</span>]]</sup> 03:01, 26 April 2009 (MDT)<br />
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Okay, I think that you got to a really good start, and then nose dived. What kind of sixth level person should be able to bypass ANY DR? But even then, you let your level one or two have a ghost touch weapon? Granted, not many L2's deal with ghosts, but still, if we're going to talk about kicking anyone in the balls, it should be the other martial classes. You just kind of went, oh well I get that and that and that too, just like you do. Plus, I could kick your ass with my amazing weapon. -Drgonlovr2<br />
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:Note that this is supposed to be used with the other Frank and K classes. The fighter, barbarian, and knight are also pretty awesome, and so are not being "kicked in the balls". They're each different, and useful in a different way. The samurai and barbarian are both high damage, with the samurai having a few anti-magic abilities and the barbarian just being... well, he's a barbarian. And the fighter is versatile, while the knight tanks people like crazy. [[User:Dragon Child|Dragon Child]] 20:07, 26 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::Why does everyone go, "It can bypass DR before level 10! IT'S TOO POWERFUL!"? It's not like he does extra damage than he does to something which has no DR. DR serves to really screw melee-combat types, since its magical equivalent (energy/spell resistance) can be bypassed by having a decent variety of spells (some spells don't allow spell resistance). However, magic weapons are expensive, even if you're buying a point or two below your main weapon. Oh, and that's before DR/-. Sure, the entire party can make a gentleman's agreement to buy a silver, cold iron, and adamantine weapon between them...but that's still pretty cheap and breaks some of the immersion. Personally, I'd rather have a Samurai/Monk in the party (or play one) and cheer when DR 15 is ignored, than to *have* to think about playing the DR rules so the melee section of the party can continue to contribute.--[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 08:59, 29 May 2009 (MDT)<br />
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== Picture ==<br />
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Thanks a lot for all the help, Jota. I was just wondering if it would be possible to find a picture of a Samurai-like thing with a scythe or other 4x crit weapon instead of that greatsword...tall order, I know, but I think it would make the page better. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 22:22, 18 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
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[[Image:Oni samurai by timatika.jpg|420px|right|thumb]]<br />
:I was planning on using this one for the [[Demon Samurai (DnD Prestige Class)]], but if you want I could juggle things a bit. I don't have a huge investment in it either way, other than that this one is a bit fiendish. As for other options, scythes are pretty easy; scythes plus samurai armor is a little harder. I'll see if I can find anything else. -- [[User:Jota|Jota]] 22:39, 18 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
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::That one definitely makes a better demon samurai -- I mean, it's even in the name! Wonderful work with the pictures, by the way. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 02:21, 19 June 2009 (MDT)<br />
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== Rating == <br />
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'''Power - <<<4.5>>>/5''' I give this class a <<<4.5>>> out of 5 because <<<This class is decently balanced, and very obviously well thought out and edited. Very well done.>>> --[[User:76.26.226.216|76.26.226.216]] 14:34, 14 December 2009 (MST)<br />
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'''Wording - <<<4>>>/5''' I give this class a <<<4>>> out of 5 because <<<Only one spelling error i saw.>>> --[[User:76.26.226.216|76.26.226.216]] 14:34, 14 December 2009 (MST)<br />
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'''[[Help:Standards and Formatting (DnD Guideline)|Formatting]] - <<<5>>>/5''' I give this class a <<<5>>> out of 5 because <<<No errors i saw.>>> --[[User:76.26.226.216|76.26.226.216]] 14:34, 14 December 2009 (MST)<br />
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'''Flavor - <<<5>>>/5''' I give this class a <<<5>>> out of 5 because <<<Oh just very cool, very very cool, haha.>>> --[[User:76.26.226.216|76.26.226.216]] 14:34, 14 December 2009 (MST)<br />
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== Rating == <br />
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'''Power - 2.5/5''' I give this class a 2.5 out of 5 because, while I usually enjoy and am in favor of Frank and K's methods of determining class and ability strengths, I find that the massive amount of exploitation available for critical hits is simply too much. Sure, Undead and other creatures might be able to put a wrench in the gears, but there's not always those kinds of creatures around. Force cutting, Magic cutting, head cutting, armor cutting... it has alot of features that I feel I can accommodate, even if a little uncomfortably. However, this seems a little much. The amount of uses in intermediate levels skyrockets, and in the higher levels, it gains an almost indefinite range, considering how many enemies the Samurai kills. Killing off an entire village of people could be done and grant easily more than 50 uses of the Kiai! ability, per day, it seems. Even more discouraging, the Samurai could simply use Kiai! to kill something, and gain another use. I understand that Spell-casters constantly overshadow Warrior classes, but the Tome Fighter and Tome Monk are great compensations to that, whereas this Tome Samurai... it seems to be more of an extremely exploitable class. --[[User:Jwguy|Jwguy]] 01:21, 9 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
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'''Wording - 5/5''' Admittedly, despite my statement above, I find that the Wording and Formatting are still as wonderful as ever. Keep up the good work! --[[User:Jwguy|Jwguy]] 01:21, 9 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
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'''[[Help:Standards and Formatting (DnD Guideline)|Formatting]] - 5/5''' My reasons for this are as they are above. --[[User:Jwguy|Jwguy]] 01:21, 9 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
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'''Flavor - 3.5/5''' While my issues with the class's seeming overpowered status remain, I find that the improvements made on the class are rather agreeable, overall, excluding the Kiai! ability. It seems to provide a staple class for warriors against the threats of mages, without actually having to be a spellblade, which is something I always encourage. --[[User:Jwguy|Jwguy]] 01:21, 9 February 2010 (UTC)<br />
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== Rating == <br />
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'''Power - 2/5''' I give this class a 2 out of 5 because if any DM in his or her right mind would let me play one, I would pick this over any other melee-focused warrior class around. Cleaving through spells, reflexively swatting aside any inconvenient spell headed my way, getting powerful magical weapons basically for free, and easily exploiting my Kiai! ability sounds like a gas. Even better if I happen to have a few other adventurers following me around for some reason, and one of them decided to cast buffing spells on me. --[[User:Atypicaloracle|Atypicaloracle]] 03:57, 2 June 2010 (UTC)<br />
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:For starters, I admit the Samurai wins melee combat when he has his uses of Kiai. It hasn't been a problem for me in my games, because whoever's playing a samurai generally wants to do it for the mook-slaying. I can keep them happy by throwing some mooks at them for them to hack down and sometimes Kiai. Plus, this is meant to be used with other melee classes from the same sourcebook, like a [[Monk, Tome (3.5e Class)|Monk]] or a [[Barbarian, Tome (3.5e Class)|Barbarian]] who will have their own interesting ways to contribute and awesome things to do. This is all based on some variant rules to patch some problems with the D&D 3.x system, and one of the things this would did was make some melee classes that didn't have to be part of an iconic party and more or less ran themselves. Because not every group wants to have a fighter, a wizard, a cleric, and a rogue running around, and not everyone wants to have to play a build, like I'd have to do if I played an SRD fighter and wanted to, you know, stay alive until we get to the next roleplaying bit. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 16:18, 2 June 2010 (UTC)<br />
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'''Wording - 4/5''' The wording is clear enough, although easy exploits abound. I can't conclusively prove these exploits are the result of the wording or deliberate intent on the creator's behalf. --[[User:Atypicaloracle|Atypicaloracle]] 03:57, 2 June 2010 (UTC)<br />
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'''[[Help:Standards and Formatting (DnD Guideline)|Formatting]] - 4/5''' It's dense, and there's more class powers on this page than I properly know how to approach, but the parts seem to be largely in the right places. --[[User:Atypicaloracle|Atypicaloracle]] 03:57, 2 June 2010 (UTC)<br />
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:There's something every level because the guys who wrote this realized 1) Getting something new to look forward to each level apart from a slight increase in your numbers is pretty awesome 2) Casters get new class powers each level. You know, those interesting abilities and effects called 'spells'? That's actually a pretty good way to do it (see point 1) and should have been expanded in the first place --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 16:18, 2 June 2010 (UTC)<br />
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'''Flavor - 2/5''' I firmly believe that within the narrow confines of the D&D alignment system, a samurai is a Lawful character: devoted to a strictly regimented caste system, swearing binding vows of fealty to a member of a ruling class, and devoting themselves to a regimented study of martial practice. They don't have to be good, or evil for that matter, but they are essentially lawful, being for all intents and purposes the Japanese equivalent of a chivalric knight. That aside, the introduction to the class makes no attempt to present the character in an "in-universe" style - by the phrase "beat the crap out of" I was already wincing and found it impossible to stop. --[[User:Atypicaloracle|Atypicaloracle]] 03:57, 2 June 2010 (UTC)<br />
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:Well, you ''would'' have a point except for two things. First, the D&D alignment system makes no sense and is best treated as a sort of rough guideline at best, especially when it gets to the parts about Law and Chaos. Telling someone they MUST play Lawful because you can't imagine any other way the character could be is honestly sort of insulting to that person's abilities, saying there's no way they could play, for example, a Chaotic samurai well. Second, comparatively few gaming groups use the same universe. Many of the gaming groups do their own thing rather than cleave to some setting or another, shocking as that might sound to the Goodright Roleplayers. So, given the impossibility to pandering to everyone's games, I have no problem with someone just putting up the class's mechanics and letting those and a few notes speak for itself. Given that the class's abilities are a nod to the what the samurai (and other Eastern-style sword-wielding nutcases) do in modern media today and some of the historical figures like Miyamoto Musashi (who, yes, wrote a treatise on 'How I Did It'), and anyone playing a Samurai would probably like a little of that represented in their game, I'd have to say you're being unfair in what you focus on the rating. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 16:18, 2 June 2010 (UTC)<br />
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::Well, here, this seems to be as good a place as any--and the category these are based on is filled with a lot of mess right now (like what appears to be several dozen 4e powers, what's up with that?). Take a gander at these: [[Tome of Necromancy (3.5e Sourcebook)]], [[Tome of Fiends (3.5e Sourcebook)]], [[Dungeonomicon (3.5e Sourcebook)]], [[Races of War (3.5e Sourcebook)]]. You might not agree with what they say, but they'll make you have to think about your assumptions and may make you realize a few more thing. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 16:18, 2 June 2010 (UTC)</div>Genowhirlhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Boneblade_Reaper_(3.5e_Prestige_Class)&diff=472243Talk:Boneblade Reaper (3.5e Prestige Class)2010-06-01T01:39:28Z<p>Genowhirl: </p>
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<div>== Comment ==<br />
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Shouldn't you edit this class to fit the alternate monk class you introduced in Dungeonomicon? Throw in some Martial styles, remove the Evasion requirement, stuff like that. {{Unsigned|71.124.225.114|16:59, 14 September 2008 (MDT)}}<br />
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:There actually is one already; I'll add it to the page shortly. Thanks for reminding me! [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 18:06, 14 September 2008 (MDT)<br />
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::I took care of it. I'm thinking about adding a sample NPC whom I have the info for somewhere on my hard drive. [[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 13:15, 12 November 2008 (MST)<br />
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== Rating == <br />
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<s>'''Power - 0/5'''</s> Completely broken. The class have d8, Good Saves, Full Bab. That not bad in particular but the class also have full spellcasting progression! I can barely imagine a wizard getting all his spell while having the double of his hit dice, all good saves, fighter bab and class feature. The class features are barely good enough (they are strong). I feel this class deserve 0/5 in term of balance since it one of the most broken class ive seen (yes even over the Planar Shepherd). --[[User:Lord Dhazriel|Lord Dhazriel]] 21:02, 18 September 2008 (MDT)<br />
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:You have no idea what you're talking about. This is hardly "completely broken". You come into the class as a Spellcaster/Monk, which is quite possibly the suckiest multiclass idea in the game. Every single bonus that the class gets is necessary towards making such a character playable. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 21:06, 18 September 2008 (MDT)<br />
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::The result is unfortunately a Eldrith Knight on steroid, the class is better than any SRD class or any Gish-like class. They even have more spellcasting than the Knight itself, the class need working.--[[User:Lord Dhazriel|Lord Dhazriel]] 21:09, 18 September 2008 (MDT)<br />
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:::Once again, you have no idea what you're talking about. Go run some actual combats and come back to me when you're done playing theory-without-backing. Whether or not the class is "better than any SRD prestige class" (which its not) is irrelevant anyway. The fact of the matter is that the class caters to a ''very'' specific multiclass (monk/spellcaster), where every bonus the class gives is needed. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 21:11, 18 September 2008 (MDT)<br />
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::::Monk doesn't have full bab. The class is the strongest gish I ever seen. Really taking the class alone make you stronger than the monk really. It like a monk, with full bab and complete spellcasting. I understand monk/mage is a difficult combo but many aspect of the class are overpowered. Again I go with the Eldrith Knight example: Gain one bonus feat at first level but no spellcasting level progression. After they gain no class feature. Okay maybe it seem irrelevant. Maybe it is but again what bug me is the full spellcasting. The class is giving excellent combat ability (only slightly below figther the base warrior class) and without any spells lost. And by the way i DMed for long enough to know what im talking about.--[[User:Lord Dhazriel|Lord Dhazriel]] 21:21, 18 September 2008 (MDT) <br />
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:::::Taking it makes you stronger than the Monk? That's a '''good thing''', the Monk is the weakest class out of all the base classes in the SRD. If you think you know what you're talking about then go run some combats. Monk 2/Wizard whatever/Boneblade Reaper up to level 10. Does the Boneblade Reaper defeat more than, less than, or exactly 50% of opponents of CR 10? I think you'll find the number at 50%, which is exactly what one wants. In addition, to the full spellcasting: if the class does not give full spellcasting, it might as well not give any spellcasting at all. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 21:24, 18 September 2008 (MDT)<br />
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::::::If the wizard is 1... the wizard cast like a 11th level wizard with slightly less bab than a figther. Okay now we make it fight a wizard of equal level. The Bonedblade Reaper have good bab since 10 level, good saves since 10 level, class features (who are not broken on themselves) and similar spellcasting. Also if both have 10 con and average hp per level the Bonedblade Reaper double the wizard hp. And the only edge the wizard haves a single spell level, how can he win. The Boneblade Reaper beat him in every single way (except for spellcasting where he is slightly weaker). --[[User:Lord Dhazriel|Lord Dhazriel]] 21:32, 18 September 2008 (MDT)<br />
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:::::::"One spell level" is a ''huge'' advantage. Keep in mind that a character's cohort can cast at his level minus two. The Boneblade Reaper is casting at the same strength as the fighter's wizard girlfriend, not at the strength of a normal player character. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 21:41, 18 September 2008 (MDT)<br />
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::::::::He is still twice as strong in battle. He don't risk his life if an opponent catch him spelless, he can still defend himself. The fact is that he i stronger than all the Gish out here. Most base Gish barely have 4th level magic over 20 level. The class is interesting I like it but it need work, maybe giving it mid bab and half spellcasting would balance thing out.--[[User:Lord Dhazriel|Lord Dhazriel]] 21:45, 18 September 2008 (MDT)<br />
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:::::::::Gish suck. Wizards already make better Gish than Gish (not to mention Clerics), thanks to the wonderful Spell Compendium or, hell, even just Polymorph. A few other points to make in repsonse to your post: by the time you can take your first level of Boneblade Reaper, a Wizard of the same level will never have to worry about running out of spells. Hell, you can just be Wizard 5/Incantatrix 2 and Polymorph will last ''all day'' (thus the Wizard doesn't risk his life if he's spell-less either). Half-spellcasting? Um, no. You're already casting like a cohort, any less and you're useless. In addition, the difference between medium BAB and strong BAB for most of your career in this PrC is seriously a number that's small enough you might forget you have it. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 21:50, 18 September 2008 (MDT)<br />
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::::::::::Hmm. I wouldn't give it a 0, since that's stating that balance couldn't get any worse. Let's say that you're a Monk/Sorcerer, considering this PrC for your next level. Since most of the prereqs are monk based, let's say our example is level 6/2. Obviously, Sorcerer has no benefit in taking another class, since there's full arcane caster progression. Even if one were a Wizard, this would be more advantegeous than the bonus feats. However, comparing at most 10 levels of this class with the next 10 potential levels of monk, we lose a large portion of the special abilities for another large portion, unarmed damage progression for Con damage conditionally (Which is a plus), AC bonus for a conditional AC bonus that is much higher, and a speed bonus for a... speed bonus. And we get a slight bump to BAB. If you cut the spellcasting progression down to at most 4 per 5 levels, I'd give it a 3 or 4, because so many of the bonuses are conditional. Right now, I'd put it at 2 or 3. Basically, I'm pretty sure that Prestige classes aren't supposed to give a "Why shouldn't I take this?" mentality, to which I think this one is close. Wow, that was a messed up edit conflict. I think it was your spacing, Dhazriel. --[[User:Chaiyo Kaldor|<font color="maroon">''Chaiyo Kaldor''</font>]] 21:31, 18 September 2008 (MDT)<br />
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:::::::::::Again, "why shouldn't I take this" is hardly a bad thing in that case, considering how much the Monk sucks and how continuing with Monk would make your spellcasting levels pointless. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 21:42, 18 September 2008 (MDT)<br />
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::::::::::::Because you must make sacrifice to gain spellcasting. The Eldrith Knight does, the Duskblade does and any gish does. The monk/wizard shouldn't be a better monk and a wizard. Seriously even without spellcasting I would take this class instead of monk. Imagine if the Eldrith Knight was stronger than the fighter, d12, 2 good saves (will and fort) and a bunch of abilities, and full spellcasting. This one can beat the Monk or the Wizard, even if it not a equal caster (if they do as spell duel the wizard will not win considering the superior saves and the superior hp of the Boneblade reaper.). Seriously we are taking all the page ''':D''' --[[User:Lord Dhazriel|Lord Dhazriel]] 21:58, 18 September 2008 (MDT)<br />
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:::::::::::::Except it's not a better wizard. Its wizardness is restricted ''cohort spellcasting''. And being better than a Monk is irrelevant. Everything should be better than a Monk. And it most certainly cannot beat the Wizard. As has been previously mentioned, the Wizard has an entire level of spells on this guy. That is a huge advantage that you seem to be underestimating to a ridiculous degree. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 22:04, 18 September 2008 (MDT)<br />
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{{Discussion Indentation Revert}}<br />
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:Really im getting tired of arguing, the saves on this class and the prerequise evasion even ashame a wizard. In a spell duel the wizard may win, the spell level doesn't equal all the hp, the saves, the bab the Boneblade Reaper gain. Yes it a new spell level, but it mean nothing since he have the saves to halves or negate the effect, the hp to survive the backfire. And no I don't underestimate a spell level I know how powerful caster are but you are underestimating the save, the bab, the hp and the class feature. Even if one isn't equalling a spell level and some extra spells. On a bright side I noticed the class isn't that unbalanced and is pretty respectable when combining with a divine class. But still the class is clearly not perfect and need work. --[[User:Lord Dhazriel|Lord Dhazriel]] 22:18, 18 September 2008 (MDT)<br />
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::I'm increasing my rating, thought about it and it not seriously overpowered. I mean nothing compare to the shepherd or the Frenzied Berserker. Rating is now 3/5.--[[User:Lord Dhazriel|Lord Dhazriel]] 13:05, 8 November 2008 (MST)<br />
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'''Wording - 4/5''' The wording is good, while not excellent I feel it deserve a 4/5. --[[User:Lord Dhazriel|Lord Dhazriel]] 21:02, 18 September 2008 (MDT)<br />
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'''[[Help:Standards and Formatting (DnD Guideline)|Formatting]] - 4/5''' It formatted good enough, however since the page isn't complete (some section are missing) I give to this page a 3/5 for formatting. --[[User:Lord Dhazriel|Lord Dhazriel]] 21:02, 18 September 2008 (MDT)<br />
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:This is a pet peeve of mine, actually -- the missing sections are really not necessary. For about half or more of 3.5's lifetime, the sections didn't even exist -- they're actually the '''new''' PrC format, while this follows the old PrC format (which is basically the new format while taking up fewer pages). Most of those sections are totally useless anyway -- "X in the world" is the only thing that's worth writing, and ''even then'' it's so campaign specific that you might as well not. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 21:14, 18 September 2008 (MDT)<br />
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::I understand that, normally I am more like "no fluff is needed". Thy need to be done but it not worth a 3 so I revise my ranking to 4. --[[User:Lord Dhazriel|Lord Dhazriel]] 21:34, 18 September 2008 (MDT)<br />
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'''Flavor - 4/5''' I like the flavor, it not bad at all. So i think it deserve at least a 4/5. --[[User:Lord Dhazriel|Lord Dhazriel]] 21:02, 18 September 2008 (MDT)<br />
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== Boneblade what? ==<br />
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My problem isn't with the PrC itself - I think it's horrifically overpowered, wouldn't allow one in any game I'm running, and that's the extent of my willingness to discuss ''that'' part - but rather with the ''Boneblade Master'' Feat required to get in. What exactly is "boneblade" (I haven't managed to find it, as all references in the Wiki appear to merely redirect to the same page, where it is not described)? I assume it's some kind of magically hardened bone useful for making weapons out of it. Without a definition of this material, this pleasant little Feat appears to give you a buffet of Feats in one shot. An effective universal weapon proficiency, specialized crafting ability, effectively universal Improved Critical use, and a bonus to initiative. Granted, the silly rules regarding Craft: Alchemy (why would you need to be a spellcaster to create substances that are not magical, do not require magic, and are actually intended to replace magic? /rant) prevent an Int 10 Fighter from dumping eight starting skill points into two Crafts in order to pick up this Feat at third level, but it won't stop any other front line combatant class with spell casting from doing so - like a Cleric scrimshawing himself a shiny new necromantic great sword that he gets free proficiency with. [[User:Atypicaloracle|Atypicaloracle]] 12:54, 25 May 2010 (UTC)<br />
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:''Boneblades:'' Boneblades are alchemically and necromantically hardened blades made from the bones of intelligent creatures, and the material can only be created by craftsmen with the Boneblade Master feat. For an unknown reason, they only retain their special properties if they are made into light slashing or piercing weapons. Boneblades used in melee combat ignore the damage reduction of any undead creature and can hit incorporeal creatures as if they were magic weapons with the ghost touch property.. Boneblades made from dragon bones can be combined with the Dragoncrafter feat to produce items with both properties. Cost: 1,000 gp per lb. <br />
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:From here: [[Tome_of_Necromancy (3.5e Sourcebook)]]--read through and take a long look. The class itself is enterable pretty much only as a Monk/Spellcaster, meaning you take second place in one-on-one melee combat and your spellcasting is at at most that of a cohort--so you'd be keeping up with the Fighter's wizard girlfriend. Long story short: It only ''looks'' horrifically overpowered. But it doesn't exist in a vacuuum. Which is why the chassis and class features are pretty rockin'--this character's going to need some serious chops to stay in the game. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 17:34, 25 May 2010 (UTC)<br />
::"Oh look, it's my thirtieth birthday... those aging penalties are coming up... whelp... time to throw myself off the tallest structure I can until it kills me so that I can fight an undead missing its most dangerous attack form... *yawn* Man, being an immortal killing machine is tough." [[User:Atypicaloracle|Atypicaloracle]] 22:39, 31 May 2010 (UTC)<br />
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:::Wow, the people you play with must be pretty awful if that's what you immediately think of upon seeing that ability. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 01:04, 1 June 2010 (UTC)<br />
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::::Meh, the monk gets Timeless Body one level earlier, and doesn't have to literally fistfight death to get it. I would think of the two portions of Dance with the Dark Reaper that you would be more worried about is the part that gives you a chance to true res every time you die.<br />
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::::And if that's the kind of group you play with, there's nothing stopping you from using an advanced Dark Reaper. After all, he gains experience every time he fights as well :) [[User:Jazzman831|Jazz]][[User talk:Jazzman831|Man]] 01:27, 1 June 2010 (UTC)<br />
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:::::And holds a grudge. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 01:39, 1 June 2010 (UTC)</div>Genowhirlhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Boneblade_Reaper_(3.5e_Prestige_Class)&diff=472235Talk:Boneblade Reaper (3.5e Prestige Class)2010-06-01T01:04:32Z<p>Genowhirl: </p>
<hr />
<div>== Comment ==<br />
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Shouldn't you edit this class to fit the alternate monk class you introduced in Dungeonomicon? Throw in some Martial styles, remove the Evasion requirement, stuff like that. {{Unsigned|71.124.225.114|16:59, 14 September 2008 (MDT)}}<br />
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:There actually is one already; I'll add it to the page shortly. Thanks for reminding me! [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 18:06, 14 September 2008 (MDT)<br />
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::I took care of it. I'm thinking about adding a sample NPC whom I have the info for somewhere on my hard drive. [[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 13:15, 12 November 2008 (MST)<br />
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== Rating == <br />
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<s>'''Power - 0/5'''</s> Completely broken. The class have d8, Good Saves, Full Bab. That not bad in particular but the class also have full spellcasting progression! I can barely imagine a wizard getting all his spell while having the double of his hit dice, all good saves, fighter bab and class feature. The class features are barely good enough (they are strong). I feel this class deserve 0/5 in term of balance since it one of the most broken class ive seen (yes even over the Planar Shepherd). --[[User:Lord Dhazriel|Lord Dhazriel]] 21:02, 18 September 2008 (MDT)<br />
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:You have no idea what you're talking about. This is hardly "completely broken". You come into the class as a Spellcaster/Monk, which is quite possibly the suckiest multiclass idea in the game. Every single bonus that the class gets is necessary towards making such a character playable. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 21:06, 18 September 2008 (MDT)<br />
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::The result is unfortunately a Eldrith Knight on steroid, the class is better than any SRD class or any Gish-like class. They even have more spellcasting than the Knight itself, the class need working.--[[User:Lord Dhazriel|Lord Dhazriel]] 21:09, 18 September 2008 (MDT)<br />
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:::Once again, you have no idea what you're talking about. Go run some actual combats and come back to me when you're done playing theory-without-backing. Whether or not the class is "better than any SRD prestige class" (which its not) is irrelevant anyway. The fact of the matter is that the class caters to a ''very'' specific multiclass (monk/spellcaster), where every bonus the class gives is needed. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 21:11, 18 September 2008 (MDT)<br />
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::::Monk doesn't have full bab. The class is the strongest gish I ever seen. Really taking the class alone make you stronger than the monk really. It like a monk, with full bab and complete spellcasting. I understand monk/mage is a difficult combo but many aspect of the class are overpowered. Again I go with the Eldrith Knight example: Gain one bonus feat at first level but no spellcasting level progression. After they gain no class feature. Okay maybe it seem irrelevant. Maybe it is but again what bug me is the full spellcasting. The class is giving excellent combat ability (only slightly below figther the base warrior class) and without any spells lost. And by the way i DMed for long enough to know what im talking about.--[[User:Lord Dhazriel|Lord Dhazriel]] 21:21, 18 September 2008 (MDT) <br />
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:::::Taking it makes you stronger than the Monk? That's a '''good thing''', the Monk is the weakest class out of all the base classes in the SRD. If you think you know what you're talking about then go run some combats. Monk 2/Wizard whatever/Boneblade Reaper up to level 10. Does the Boneblade Reaper defeat more than, less than, or exactly 50% of opponents of CR 10? I think you'll find the number at 50%, which is exactly what one wants. In addition, to the full spellcasting: if the class does not give full spellcasting, it might as well not give any spellcasting at all. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 21:24, 18 September 2008 (MDT)<br />
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::::::If the wizard is 1... the wizard cast like a 11th level wizard with slightly less bab than a figther. Okay now we make it fight a wizard of equal level. The Bonedblade Reaper have good bab since 10 level, good saves since 10 level, class features (who are not broken on themselves) and similar spellcasting. Also if both have 10 con and average hp per level the Bonedblade Reaper double the wizard hp. And the only edge the wizard haves a single spell level, how can he win. The Boneblade Reaper beat him in every single way (except for spellcasting where he is slightly weaker). --[[User:Lord Dhazriel|Lord Dhazriel]] 21:32, 18 September 2008 (MDT)<br />
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:::::::"One spell level" is a ''huge'' advantage. Keep in mind that a character's cohort can cast at his level minus two. The Boneblade Reaper is casting at the same strength as the fighter's wizard girlfriend, not at the strength of a normal player character. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 21:41, 18 September 2008 (MDT)<br />
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::::::::He is still twice as strong in battle. He don't risk his life if an opponent catch him spelless, he can still defend himself. The fact is that he i stronger than all the Gish out here. Most base Gish barely have 4th level magic over 20 level. The class is interesting I like it but it need work, maybe giving it mid bab and half spellcasting would balance thing out.--[[User:Lord Dhazriel|Lord Dhazriel]] 21:45, 18 September 2008 (MDT)<br />
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:::::::::Gish suck. Wizards already make better Gish than Gish (not to mention Clerics), thanks to the wonderful Spell Compendium or, hell, even just Polymorph. A few other points to make in repsonse to your post: by the time you can take your first level of Boneblade Reaper, a Wizard of the same level will never have to worry about running out of spells. Hell, you can just be Wizard 5/Incantatrix 2 and Polymorph will last ''all day'' (thus the Wizard doesn't risk his life if he's spell-less either). Half-spellcasting? Um, no. You're already casting like a cohort, any less and you're useless. In addition, the difference between medium BAB and strong BAB for most of your career in this PrC is seriously a number that's small enough you might forget you have it. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 21:50, 18 September 2008 (MDT)<br />
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::::::::::Hmm. I wouldn't give it a 0, since that's stating that balance couldn't get any worse. Let's say that you're a Monk/Sorcerer, considering this PrC for your next level. Since most of the prereqs are monk based, let's say our example is level 6/2. Obviously, Sorcerer has no benefit in taking another class, since there's full arcane caster progression. Even if one were a Wizard, this would be more advantegeous than the bonus feats. However, comparing at most 10 levels of this class with the next 10 potential levels of monk, we lose a large portion of the special abilities for another large portion, unarmed damage progression for Con damage conditionally (Which is a plus), AC bonus for a conditional AC bonus that is much higher, and a speed bonus for a... speed bonus. And we get a slight bump to BAB. If you cut the spellcasting progression down to at most 4 per 5 levels, I'd give it a 3 or 4, because so many of the bonuses are conditional. Right now, I'd put it at 2 or 3. Basically, I'm pretty sure that Prestige classes aren't supposed to give a "Why shouldn't I take this?" mentality, to which I think this one is close. Wow, that was a messed up edit conflict. I think it was your spacing, Dhazriel. --[[User:Chaiyo Kaldor|<font color="maroon">''Chaiyo Kaldor''</font>]] 21:31, 18 September 2008 (MDT)<br />
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:::::::::::Again, "why shouldn't I take this" is hardly a bad thing in that case, considering how much the Monk sucks and how continuing with Monk would make your spellcasting levels pointless. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 21:42, 18 September 2008 (MDT)<br />
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::::::::::::Because you must make sacrifice to gain spellcasting. The Eldrith Knight does, the Duskblade does and any gish does. The monk/wizard shouldn't be a better monk and a wizard. Seriously even without spellcasting I would take this class instead of monk. Imagine if the Eldrith Knight was stronger than the fighter, d12, 2 good saves (will and fort) and a bunch of abilities, and full spellcasting. This one can beat the Monk or the Wizard, even if it not a equal caster (if they do as spell duel the wizard will not win considering the superior saves and the superior hp of the Boneblade reaper.). Seriously we are taking all the page ''':D''' --[[User:Lord Dhazriel|Lord Dhazriel]] 21:58, 18 September 2008 (MDT)<br />
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:::::::::::::Except it's not a better wizard. Its wizardness is restricted ''cohort spellcasting''. And being better than a Monk is irrelevant. Everything should be better than a Monk. And it most certainly cannot beat the Wizard. As has been previously mentioned, the Wizard has an entire level of spells on this guy. That is a huge advantage that you seem to be underestimating to a ridiculous degree. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 22:04, 18 September 2008 (MDT)<br />
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{{Discussion Indentation Revert}}<br />
<br />
:Really im getting tired of arguing, the saves on this class and the prerequise evasion even ashame a wizard. In a spell duel the wizard may win, the spell level doesn't equal all the hp, the saves, the bab the Boneblade Reaper gain. Yes it a new spell level, but it mean nothing since he have the saves to halves or negate the effect, the hp to survive the backfire. And no I don't underestimate a spell level I know how powerful caster are but you are underestimating the save, the bab, the hp and the class feature. Even if one isn't equalling a spell level and some extra spells. On a bright side I noticed the class isn't that unbalanced and is pretty respectable when combining with a divine class. But still the class is clearly not perfect and need work. --[[User:Lord Dhazriel|Lord Dhazriel]] 22:18, 18 September 2008 (MDT)<br />
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::I'm increasing my rating, thought about it and it not seriously overpowered. I mean nothing compare to the shepherd or the Frenzied Berserker. Rating is now 3/5.--[[User:Lord Dhazriel|Lord Dhazriel]] 13:05, 8 November 2008 (MST)<br />
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'''Wording - 4/5''' The wording is good, while not excellent I feel it deserve a 4/5. --[[User:Lord Dhazriel|Lord Dhazriel]] 21:02, 18 September 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
'''[[Help:Standards and Formatting (DnD Guideline)|Formatting]] - 4/5''' It formatted good enough, however since the page isn't complete (some section are missing) I give to this page a 3/5 for formatting. --[[User:Lord Dhazriel|Lord Dhazriel]] 21:02, 18 September 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
:This is a pet peeve of mine, actually -- the missing sections are really not necessary. For about half or more of 3.5's lifetime, the sections didn't even exist -- they're actually the '''new''' PrC format, while this follows the old PrC format (which is basically the new format while taking up fewer pages). Most of those sections are totally useless anyway -- "X in the world" is the only thing that's worth writing, and ''even then'' it's so campaign specific that you might as well not. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 21:14, 18 September 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
::I understand that, normally I am more like "no fluff is needed". Thy need to be done but it not worth a 3 so I revise my ranking to 4. --[[User:Lord Dhazriel|Lord Dhazriel]] 21:34, 18 September 2008 (MDT)<br />
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'''Flavor - 4/5''' I like the flavor, it not bad at all. So i think it deserve at least a 4/5. --[[User:Lord Dhazriel|Lord Dhazriel]] 21:02, 18 September 2008 (MDT)<br />
<br />
== Boneblade what? ==<br />
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My problem isn't with the PrC itself - I think it's horrifically overpowered, wouldn't allow one in any game I'm running, and that's the extent of my willingness to discuss ''that'' part - but rather with the ''Boneblade Master'' Feat required to get in. What exactly is "boneblade" (I haven't managed to find it, as all references in the Wiki appear to merely redirect to the same page, where it is not described)? I assume it's some kind of magically hardened bone useful for making weapons out of it. Without a definition of this material, this pleasant little Feat appears to give you a buffet of Feats in one shot. An effective universal weapon proficiency, specialized crafting ability, effectively universal Improved Critical use, and a bonus to initiative. Granted, the silly rules regarding Craft: Alchemy (why would you need to be a spellcaster to create substances that are not magical, do not require magic, and are actually intended to replace magic? /rant) prevent an Int 10 Fighter from dumping eight starting skill points into two Crafts in order to pick up this Feat at third level, but it won't stop any other front line combatant class with spell casting from doing so - like a Cleric scrimshawing himself a shiny new necromantic great sword that he gets free proficiency with. [[User:Atypicaloracle|Atypicaloracle]] 12:54, 25 May 2010 (UTC)<br />
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:''Boneblades:'' Boneblades are alchemically and necromantically hardened blades made from the bones of intelligent creatures, and the material can only be created by craftsmen with the Boneblade Master feat. For an unknown reason, they only retain their special properties if they are made into light slashing or piercing weapons. Boneblades used in melee combat ignore the damage reduction of any undead creature and can hit incorporeal creatures as if they were magic weapons with the ghost touch property.. Boneblades made from dragon bones can be combined with the Dragoncrafter feat to produce items with both properties. Cost: 1,000 gp per lb. <br />
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:From here: [[Tome_of_Necromancy (3.5e Sourcebook)]]--read through and take a long look. The class itself is enterable pretty much only as a Monk/Spellcaster, meaning you take second place in one-on-one melee combat and your spellcasting is at at most that of a cohort--so you'd be keeping up with the Fighter's wizard girlfriend. Long story short: It only ''looks'' horrifically overpowered. But it doesn't exist in a vacuuum. Which is why the chassis and class features are pretty rockin'--this character's going to need some serious chops to stay in the game. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 17:34, 25 May 2010 (UTC)<br />
::"Oh look, it's my thirtieth birthday... those aging penalties are coming up... whelp... time to throw myself off the tallest structure I can until it kills me so that I can fight an undead missing its most dangerous attack form... *yawn* Man, being an immortal killing machine is tough." [[User:Atypicaloracle|Atypicaloracle]] 22:39, 31 May 2010 (UTC)<br />
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:::Wow, the people you play with must be pretty awful if that's what you immediately think of upon seeing that ability. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 01:04, 1 June 2010 (UTC)</div>Genowhirlhttps://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:Boneblade_Reaper_(3.5e_Prestige_Class)&diff=471167Talk:Boneblade Reaper (3.5e Prestige Class)2010-05-25T17:34:56Z<p>Genowhirl: </p>
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<div>== Comment ==<br />
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Shouldn't you edit this class to fit the alternate monk class you introduced in Dungeonomicon? Throw in some Martial styles, remove the Evasion requirement, stuff like that. {{Unsigned|71.124.225.114|16:59, 14 September 2008 (MDT)}}<br />
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:There actually is one already; I'll add it to the page shortly. Thanks for reminding me! [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 18:06, 14 September 2008 (MDT)<br />
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::I took care of it. I'm thinking about adding a sample NPC whom I have the info for somewhere on my hard drive. [[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 13:15, 12 November 2008 (MST)<br />
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== Rating == <br />
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<s>'''Power - 0/5'''</s> Completely broken. The class have d8, Good Saves, Full Bab. That not bad in particular but the class also have full spellcasting progression! I can barely imagine a wizard getting all his spell while having the double of his hit dice, all good saves, fighter bab and class feature. The class features are barely good enough (they are strong). I feel this class deserve 0/5 in term of balance since it one of the most broken class ive seen (yes even over the Planar Shepherd). --[[User:Lord Dhazriel|Lord Dhazriel]] 21:02, 18 September 2008 (MDT)<br />
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:You have no idea what you're talking about. This is hardly "completely broken". You come into the class as a Spellcaster/Monk, which is quite possibly the suckiest multiclass idea in the game. Every single bonus that the class gets is necessary towards making such a character playable. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 21:06, 18 September 2008 (MDT)<br />
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::The result is unfortunately a Eldrith Knight on steroid, the class is better than any SRD class or any Gish-like class. They even have more spellcasting than the Knight itself, the class need working.--[[User:Lord Dhazriel|Lord Dhazriel]] 21:09, 18 September 2008 (MDT)<br />
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:::Once again, you have no idea what you're talking about. Go run some actual combats and come back to me when you're done playing theory-without-backing. Whether or not the class is "better than any SRD prestige class" (which its not) is irrelevant anyway. The fact of the matter is that the class caters to a ''very'' specific multiclass (monk/spellcaster), where every bonus the class gives is needed. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 21:11, 18 September 2008 (MDT)<br />
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::::Monk doesn't have full bab. The class is the strongest gish I ever seen. Really taking the class alone make you stronger than the monk really. It like a monk, with full bab and complete spellcasting. I understand monk/mage is a difficult combo but many aspect of the class are overpowered. Again I go with the Eldrith Knight example: Gain one bonus feat at first level but no spellcasting level progression. After they gain no class feature. Okay maybe it seem irrelevant. Maybe it is but again what bug me is the full spellcasting. The class is giving excellent combat ability (only slightly below figther the base warrior class) and without any spells lost. And by the way i DMed for long enough to know what im talking about.--[[User:Lord Dhazriel|Lord Dhazriel]] 21:21, 18 September 2008 (MDT) <br />
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:::::Taking it makes you stronger than the Monk? That's a '''good thing''', the Monk is the weakest class out of all the base classes in the SRD. If you think you know what you're talking about then go run some combats. Monk 2/Wizard whatever/Boneblade Reaper up to level 10. Does the Boneblade Reaper defeat more than, less than, or exactly 50% of opponents of CR 10? I think you'll find the number at 50%, which is exactly what one wants. In addition, to the full spellcasting: if the class does not give full spellcasting, it might as well not give any spellcasting at all. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 21:24, 18 September 2008 (MDT)<br />
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::::::If the wizard is 1... the wizard cast like a 11th level wizard with slightly less bab than a figther. Okay now we make it fight a wizard of equal level. The Bonedblade Reaper have good bab since 10 level, good saves since 10 level, class features (who are not broken on themselves) and similar spellcasting. Also if both have 10 con and average hp per level the Bonedblade Reaper double the wizard hp. And the only edge the wizard haves a single spell level, how can he win. The Boneblade Reaper beat him in every single way (except for spellcasting where he is slightly weaker). --[[User:Lord Dhazriel|Lord Dhazriel]] 21:32, 18 September 2008 (MDT)<br />
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:::::::"One spell level" is a ''huge'' advantage. Keep in mind that a character's cohort can cast at his level minus two. The Boneblade Reaper is casting at the same strength as the fighter's wizard girlfriend, not at the strength of a normal player character. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 21:41, 18 September 2008 (MDT)<br />
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::::::::He is still twice as strong in battle. He don't risk his life if an opponent catch him spelless, he can still defend himself. The fact is that he i stronger than all the Gish out here. Most base Gish barely have 4th level magic over 20 level. The class is interesting I like it but it need work, maybe giving it mid bab and half spellcasting would balance thing out.--[[User:Lord Dhazriel|Lord Dhazriel]] 21:45, 18 September 2008 (MDT)<br />
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:::::::::Gish suck. Wizards already make better Gish than Gish (not to mention Clerics), thanks to the wonderful Spell Compendium or, hell, even just Polymorph. A few other points to make in repsonse to your post: by the time you can take your first level of Boneblade Reaper, a Wizard of the same level will never have to worry about running out of spells. Hell, you can just be Wizard 5/Incantatrix 2 and Polymorph will last ''all day'' (thus the Wizard doesn't risk his life if he's spell-less either). Half-spellcasting? Um, no. You're already casting like a cohort, any less and you're useless. In addition, the difference between medium BAB and strong BAB for most of your career in this PrC is seriously a number that's small enough you might forget you have it. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 21:50, 18 September 2008 (MDT)<br />
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::::::::::Hmm. I wouldn't give it a 0, since that's stating that balance couldn't get any worse. Let's say that you're a Monk/Sorcerer, considering this PrC for your next level. Since most of the prereqs are monk based, let's say our example is level 6/2. Obviously, Sorcerer has no benefit in taking another class, since there's full arcane caster progression. Even if one were a Wizard, this would be more advantegeous than the bonus feats. However, comparing at most 10 levels of this class with the next 10 potential levels of monk, we lose a large portion of the special abilities for another large portion, unarmed damage progression for Con damage conditionally (Which is a plus), AC bonus for a conditional AC bonus that is much higher, and a speed bonus for a... speed bonus. And we get a slight bump to BAB. If you cut the spellcasting progression down to at most 4 per 5 levels, I'd give it a 3 or 4, because so many of the bonuses are conditional. Right now, I'd put it at 2 or 3. Basically, I'm pretty sure that Prestige classes aren't supposed to give a "Why shouldn't I take this?" mentality, to which I think this one is close. Wow, that was a messed up edit conflict. I think it was your spacing, Dhazriel. --[[User:Chaiyo Kaldor|<font color="maroon">''Chaiyo Kaldor''</font>]] 21:31, 18 September 2008 (MDT)<br />
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:::::::::::Again, "why shouldn't I take this" is hardly a bad thing in that case, considering how much the Monk sucks and how continuing with Monk would make your spellcasting levels pointless. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 21:42, 18 September 2008 (MDT)<br />
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::::::::::::Because you must make sacrifice to gain spellcasting. The Eldrith Knight does, the Duskblade does and any gish does. The monk/wizard shouldn't be a better monk and a wizard. Seriously even without spellcasting I would take this class instead of monk. Imagine if the Eldrith Knight was stronger than the fighter, d12, 2 good saves (will and fort) and a bunch of abilities, and full spellcasting. This one can beat the Monk or the Wizard, even if it not a equal caster (if they do as spell duel the wizard will not win considering the superior saves and the superior hp of the Boneblade reaper.). Seriously we are taking all the page ''':D''' --[[User:Lord Dhazriel|Lord Dhazriel]] 21:58, 18 September 2008 (MDT)<br />
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:::::::::::::Except it's not a better wizard. Its wizardness is restricted ''cohort spellcasting''. And being better than a Monk is irrelevant. Everything should be better than a Monk. And it most certainly cannot beat the Wizard. As has been previously mentioned, the Wizard has an entire level of spells on this guy. That is a huge advantage that you seem to be underestimating to a ridiculous degree. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 22:04, 18 September 2008 (MDT)<br />
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{{Discussion Indentation Revert}}<br />
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:Really im getting tired of arguing, the saves on this class and the prerequise evasion even ashame a wizard. In a spell duel the wizard may win, the spell level doesn't equal all the hp, the saves, the bab the Boneblade Reaper gain. Yes it a new spell level, but it mean nothing since he have the saves to halves or negate the effect, the hp to survive the backfire. And no I don't underestimate a spell level I know how powerful caster are but you are underestimating the save, the bab, the hp and the class feature. Even if one isn't equalling a spell level and some extra spells. On a bright side I noticed the class isn't that unbalanced and is pretty respectable when combining with a divine class. But still the class is clearly not perfect and need work. --[[User:Lord Dhazriel|Lord Dhazriel]] 22:18, 18 September 2008 (MDT)<br />
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::I'm increasing my rating, thought about it and it not seriously overpowered. I mean nothing compare to the shepherd or the Frenzied Berserker. Rating is now 3/5.--[[User:Lord Dhazriel|Lord Dhazriel]] 13:05, 8 November 2008 (MST)<br />
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'''Wording - 4/5''' The wording is good, while not excellent I feel it deserve a 4/5. --[[User:Lord Dhazriel|Lord Dhazriel]] 21:02, 18 September 2008 (MDT)<br />
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'''[[Help:Standards and Formatting (DnD Guideline)|Formatting]] - 4/5''' It formatted good enough, however since the page isn't complete (some section are missing) I give to this page a 3/5 for formatting. --[[User:Lord Dhazriel|Lord Dhazriel]] 21:02, 18 September 2008 (MDT)<br />
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:This is a pet peeve of mine, actually -- the missing sections are really not necessary. For about half or more of 3.5's lifetime, the sections didn't even exist -- they're actually the '''new''' PrC format, while this follows the old PrC format (which is basically the new format while taking up fewer pages). Most of those sections are totally useless anyway -- "X in the world" is the only thing that's worth writing, and ''even then'' it's so campaign specific that you might as well not. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 21:14, 18 September 2008 (MDT)<br />
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::I understand that, normally I am more like "no fluff is needed". Thy need to be done but it not worth a 3 so I revise my ranking to 4. --[[User:Lord Dhazriel|Lord Dhazriel]] 21:34, 18 September 2008 (MDT)<br />
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'''Flavor - 4/5''' I like the flavor, it not bad at all. So i think it deserve at least a 4/5. --[[User:Lord Dhazriel|Lord Dhazriel]] 21:02, 18 September 2008 (MDT)<br />
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== Boneblade what? ==<br />
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My problem isn't with the PrC itself - I think it's horrifically overpowered, wouldn't allow one in any game I'm running, and that's the extent of my willingness to discuss ''that'' part - but rather with the ''Boneblade Master'' Feat required to get in. What exactly is "boneblade" (I haven't managed to find it, as all references in the Wiki appear to merely redirect to the same page, where it is not described)? I assume it's some kind of magically hardened bone useful for making weapons out of it. Without a definition of this material, this pleasant little Feat appears to give you a buffet of Feats in one shot. An effective universal weapon proficiency, specialized crafting ability, effectively universal Improved Critical use, and a bonus to initiative. Granted, the silly rules regarding Craft: Alchemy (why would you need to be a spellcaster to create substances that are not magical, do not require magic, and are actually intended to replace magic? /rant) prevent an Int 10 Fighter from dumping eight starting skill points into two Crafts in order to pick up this Feat at third level, but it won't stop any other front line combatant class with spell casting from doing so - like a Cleric scrimshawing himself a shiny new necromantic great sword that he gets free proficiency with. [[User:Atypicaloracle|Atypicaloracle]] 12:54, 25 May 2010 (UTC)<br />
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:''Boneblades:'' Boneblades are alchemically and necromantically hardened blades made from the bones of intelligent creatures, and the material can only be created by craftsmen with the Boneblade Master feat. For an unknown reason, they only retain their special properties if they are made into light slashing or piercing weapons. Boneblades used in melee combat ignore the damage reduction of any undead creature and can hit incorporeal creatures as if they were magic weapons with the ghost touch property.. Boneblades made from dragon bones can be combined with the Dragoncrafter feat to produce items with both properties. Cost: 1,000 gp per lb. <br />
<br />
:From here: [[Tome_of_Necromancy (3.5e Sourcebook)]]--read through and take a long look. The class itself is enterable pretty much only as a Monk/Spellcaster, meaning you take second place in one-on-one melee combat and your spellcasting is at at most that of a cohort--so you'd be keeping up with the Fighter's wizard girlfriend. Long story short: It only ''looks'' horrifically overpowered. But it doesn't exist in a vacuuum. Which is why the chassis and class features are pretty rockin'--this character's going to need some serious chops to stay in the game. --[[User:Genowhirl|Genowhirl]] 17:34, 25 May 2010 (UTC)</div>Genowhirl